#maybe my shipper goggles are just on and its something else like a big secret but i think im somewhat right

[mintaikk]

You think the shows ever going to address how one of Morph's fears was everyone finding out about their crush on Logan or is that something that will never ever be brought up again

[piccolina-mina]

My apologies @witchwolfmouse. I realized I kinda hijacked your post regarding M*ribel:

Y’all there’s room for people to ship Isobel/Maria and there is room for other people to be critical of the ship considering Isobel’s treatment of Maria and how deeply Maria dislikes Isobel because of how she treated Rosa... If you’re going to ship the two of them, considering what’s unfolded between the two of them onscreen thus far, then you’ve got to be prepared for some people not to be about it, especially fans of color and wlw of color and especially black fans who fall into either or both categories.

And I admittedly got in my feelings and droned on more than anticipated, so I made my reply into a post, since it was so long.

I'm ship and let ship. I have been that way from the beginning. The only reason I even became as vocal about shipping in this fandom in the first place was because of how unwelcoming it was for anyone who shipped anything alternative from the canon ships. There should be equal space for shipping and for those critical of it, and for a long time there wasn't equal space just all of one or the other depending on the ship.

Ironically, now it's slightly more equal but ridiculously divisive for silly reasons, but I digress.

I do think that an inability to take shipper goggles or whatever goggles off to actually understand certain criticisms about race and its relation to shipping, fandom, and within the show and how it's handled there has led to a lot of defensiveness by some who only see criticism as negative attacks, then respond in defense, which prompts defensive responses back and a host of others feeling genuinely invalidated and unheard, especially when what they are pointing out is skirted over.

There are genuine people who ship maribel, and hey, if you like it, I love it for you. I don't have to ship it or agree with it, but for those who genuinely love it, more power to them. Flood the tags for them. Make content.

Ironically, that's literally all I personally wanted from the beginning. Diversified content and discussions even if it's not my thing. By doing so, it makes me smile. It's all I ever wanted so it's not a nuisance for me personally.

Plus in this case, while I don't care for Isobel or the ship, I'll never say no to more Maria content. Fk it up!

Regarding M*ribel and discourse. To put it bluntly, and to go back to where some of the original friction and frustration stemmed in this fandom. The beauty of it is how much space there is to discuss in detail all angles of the amazing queer representation which I love, but the inability to discuss the race representation and issues and even the intersectional aspect of race and queerness, not without it always somehow stepping on the toes of queerness.

A wlw ship would be amazing. Hell, if it's done well, maybe this wlw ship could be amazing. Ship away, but also, please, know that someone criticizing it for legitimate reasons doesn't have to mean they are invalidating you or the wlw representation, especially when someone's criticism may be coming at it from an angle of a POC, or WOC, or QWOC who also feel invalidated. Quite damn often.

There are a lot of racial aspects of this show where despite the show's diversity, are very problematic or uncomfortable (a diverse cast does not mean all diverse issues disappear, if anything, it highlights them more so). And fans of color who voice them or have a different take than you should not have to be lambasted because they are approaching something from a different angle you may or may not have the experience with or know about.

LGBTQ fans some of whom may not be of color can look through their lenses of their own representation and what that means good or bad. But fans of color also do the same. We're always going to do the same. We can't shut that off as it's our identity and how we see the world through our experiences. Just like many of you, and those of both do it from both angles too.

There's a heterosexual bias willingly acknowledged frequently in fandom "the straights" or "the heteros" and that's fair and valid. Rarely does anyone enter the space and get pissy about that and not without being checked directly or indirectly. But you can't enter the tag and present something from a POC viewpoint or a WOC viewpoint without being directly or indirectly checked and often by people who honest to goodness aren't in the position to do so and show that based on how they choose to address or frame something.

Why? Why the "I don't see it that way so it must not be true?" Or "prove it or your lying" angle? Why do fans of color--too many to be dismissed as a fluke-- have to explain or otherwise be invalidated? That is what that is. Invalidation.

A racial bias being acknowledged or even a gender one makes people defensive or uncomfortable or unkind. That isn't fair. That isn't awesome.

And it has been a problem for a very long time.

Now if we're talking about m*ribel. Where some may see a wlw ship, a classic enemies to lovers ship, two beautiful women who could be something magical... Maria being in on the alien secret via Isobel... snarky personalities and sniding becoming something deeper ... hot hate sex ... two badass women who have been through some sh!t being a badass couple together... I do get the angle.

Where some people see that, I personally see a ship that makes me uncomfortable. I understand not everyone will see it as I do, and that's okay, as I said, ship and let ship.

But for me, when I think of Maribel, I think of Isobel violating Maria and her mind without her consent. I think of how disturbing it is that another woman did that to another woman without thinking about it as a violation (you don't have to agree, but much like what Noah did to Isobel at more extreme levels, it makes ME think of the rape and power dynamics and abuse dynamics).

I see someone who has had a total disregard for humans outside of her presumed husband violating them at will with powers she has yet to fully gain control of thus putting herself and those she violated at risk. I think of how unusual it is that she doesn't even have friends she hangs out with and doesn't know how to be one, or to be nurturing, or kind, or considerate.

And I don't know if I would like to see her with someone who is snarky and such, but also all of those things too. I see someone who is selfish in general and selfish in all of her relationships, and it's troubling (to me) when someone so inherently selfish is ever combined with someone who isn't because of how draining that is.

And to me, Isobel is the most selfish character with no give, and I don't care for the (far too common) trope of a black woman having to guide her into the light as a project and build her into a better person.

I think of an unfortunate history of women of color being violated not just by men but also white women that goes back centuries.

I see Isobel's total disregard for Maria's life and agency. I see Isobel's sense of entitlement she cannot seem to shake where she thinks she is entitled to Maria's acceptance and attention and her anger that Maria has the audacity to dislike her because apparently people are supposed to like her even when she treats almost everyone terribly. Which is a very subtle but very insidious barely noticeable dog whistle type of example most people of color can attest to as an example of white privilege.

I see someone who has clung to Maria specifically despising her on behalf of Rosa (and maribel shippers are welcome to interpret it as confirmation of a crush or attraction, and they can do so I understand that take, too) so much so that her primary reason for believing that Maria was an evil alien killer was the fact that Maria didn't like her nor as a psychic with legitimate abilities didn't allow Isobel to violate her.

The racial context of that scene alone was bothersome because of two cops jumping to a conclusion and sharing their theory with citizens with no concrete proof before speaking to their suspect (Maria) and using the word of a known racist and an entitled white woman with a grudge (Isobel) to support their theory, which if that doesn't parallel real life and how POC can find themselves at the mercy of the criminal justice system due to this, I don't know what is.

I see a woman who didn't have the slightest grasp of mind violation until she was violated by a brown man (who subsequently ended up being the presumed big bad of the season). That's what I see with M*ribel.

Where some shippers are able to see the chance for more LGBT rep and that's valid. I see troubling racial undertones that genuinely make me almost as uncomfortable as Noah and Isobel, and that too should be valid, and considered, and respected, and not dismissed, or misconstrued deliberately or otherwise.

There should be space for the criticism too, and the different takes, especially takes deeply rooted in another form of disenfranchisement. Just, consider and respect that sometimes. Not all fans of color will have the same take, we're all different people, so no one person can speak for the others, which means sometimes there will be opinions that differ on reasons that relate to race, and that's okay too.

From the first episode until now. Through Maria sidelining, and maricael/miluca shipping, and Malex angst, and Echo obstacles, and Liz decentralization, and the demonization of Noah, and Rosa injustice...through all of, there are things that should be discussed freely without being invalidated, dismissed, or made into something else.

There are many ways in which there will be race perspectives and things fans of color will present and ponder that other fans may not consider at all. And sometimes it will spill into something you like or enjoy, but those feelings especially about something so personal and specific and real ... even if you don't like them, or agree with them, or they make you uncomfortable or defensive, they matter too.

[fadedtoblue]

maybe i just have shipper goggles on but i really don't see why elektra & matt are considered toxic? like sure she lied to him, but by the end of the season they were entirely transparent with each other & there weren't any secrets b/w the two of them? idk it just seems like such a weird argument to make.

Okay so I wanted to get something posted now because even though I’m making consistent progress, chipping away at my epic post responding to this topic, I’m really not sure when I’ll have it completely done. It’s basically one of those things that’s taken on a life of its own at this point – every time I think I’ve wrapped up an argument, I’ve come up with 5 more reasons why the Elektra is toxic reasoning is bullshit. And I’m basically analyzing her actions episode by episode w/ screenshots to boot and I’m only part way through episode 7 right now…which tells you exactly what you need to know about how far I am on this lol.

But because I have seen it come up a few more times again, I’m going to sum up the crux of my argument here just to get it out of the way, and if folks are still interested when I get around to posting my paper, they can read more. 

So…yeah, it’s a really weird argument and it’s a bullshit argument. You’ve already identified what some people seem unable to, which is that Elektra, despite the writers’ best efforts, did experience some actual character development over the course of season 2. So even though yes, there were lies and deceit and some manipulation (especially in episode 5 when she’s introduced on the show), these are not the reasons why Matt experiences so much shit in S2 and in no way, ESPECIALLY in present day, does Elektra exhibit any toxic behavior toward Matt that squares with any definitions of the trope that I’ve seen, that cause him to make the bad decisions that he makes – Matt does that all by himself.

That doesn’t mean that Elektra isn’t a flawed character, or that she doesn’t do questionable things, or that she hasn’t had a bad influence on Matt, especially in their initial relationship during college. But to so tightly hold onto the concept that Elektra is this awful human being that makes Matt stumble and destroy his relationships tells me that haven’t bothered to really pay much attention to the back half of the season, or that you are willfully ignoring Matt’s very consistent characterization of being unable to balance his real life and his Daredevil-ing, and that you’ve already made up your mind about a character you don’t like and will bend over backwards to rationalize your negativity toward that character. 

Dislike Elektra all you want, but if you’re going to argue that she’s toxic, at least present some logical arguments that have fully considered everything we’ve been presented with on the show, like her traumatic background having lost her entire family, being exposed to violence as a young age, trained as a child soldier, and then indoctrinated into the Chaste, and then having to live a life dedicated to this one mission without any agency of your own. Don’t just ignore the fact that she shows remorse for her actions, don’t ignore the fact that she tries so hard to readjust the course that everyone else is telling her is inevitable. Don’t ignore the fact that she sacrifices her life at the end of the show. She gives her fucking life and yet we’re still just labeling her a toxic bitch? I mean, seriously. Just because she’s present in the narrative??

And listen, IMO the primary argument against Elektra is basically a big fat logical fallacy. Just because Elektra is present in the narrative when Matt decides to shit on his life doesn’t mean Elektra causes it. Correlation does not imply causation. Matt is perfectly capable of causing stupid things to happen to himself without external help. And even without Elektra around, I can very confidently bet that Matt would have still found a way to split his focus and f up things with Foggy and Karen. The conflict with Foggy regarding his Daredevil’ing and his inability to fully trust both Foggy and Karen are pretty consistent attributes of his personal life, even if he does have a “yay, ain’t everything grand” interlude in episode 4. This was an inner conflict for the narrative that had to play out this season (Frank and Elektra representing the sides of Matt he’s unwilling to acknowledge; Matt needing to find that trying to do everything alone is a losing proposition) so again, I’m kind of over people arguing this shit like the storyline wouldn’t have gone there anyway without Elektra b/c this is television damn it. 

Anyway, I’ll go deeper into all of this on my monstrosity of a future post, but yeah, this just needs to be said now. Thanks for allowing me this mini-rant Anon (and enabling my future monster rant hahaha). And may the Marvel gods look kindly on us in just one day and give Elektra the storyline she deserves.