#lucanis romance critical

[amarmeme]

I finally finished the game last night and have a lot of thoughts/feelings left lingering about Lucanis/Rook. I know people have gone on and around on this already, but I am compelled by this fictional mess.

I don't even think we need more from Lucanis, but more from Rook, which is my takeaway from the game as a whole regardless of romance, but I would guess is most highlighted by his romance path in particular.

Spoilers below the cut.

Pretty much anything I have written or will write is going to include some degree of angst. It's my favorite brand of tension.

Case in point: my favorite Austen novel is Persuasion. If that shows anything, it's that I live for inner turmoil, quiet suffering, yearning, unspoken words, and two idiots in love.

I want to get my heart shredded until the love makes it whole. The Lucanis romance has the potential for this in spades, but the execution is just lacking and that's because we never go beyond surface with Rook's thoughts. It feels like this romance is supposed to carry on the backs of the players' imagination, which feels a bit cheap.

I've seen criticism of not enough from Lucanis and also defenses that he's been through A Lot so we shouldn't expect more. I'm actually past that. Yes, more scenes with Lucanis would have been great, but I actually want more scenes from Rook's perspective, even if alone, to fill in the strange gaps.

Before you lock in mechanically, imagine if you will, Rook having a reflective conversation with Varric, or in Varric's mirror. Rook asks if they are imagining a connection, or seeing into things.

What if Rook has a chance to speak with Neve, given she and Lucanis have a clear connection whether they get together or not? Or Harding, one of the other people who appear in Lucanis' mind prison?

I could see this continuing after the romance "locks in" -- companions comment on Lucanis looking happy, them being together, but what about Rook? If they're not ready to comment directly to Lucanis on what this really means to him (since they never kiss, touch, exchange soulful looks, etc.), Rook should be able to ask the companions what they have noticed/what they should do to advance things.

This comes down to my struggle with this game versus past Dragon Age games. It all boils down to the lack of interaction between Rook and others. If Rook could ask their colleagues questions rather than just listening to ambient conversations or helping further their personal quests, it would do so much to make this game as amazing as the past installments.

Rook is so lonely, surrounded by all these people. You have to choose to imagine they are connected and are having these interpersonal conversations about themselves, because they never happen on screen. At least I didn't get any of that in my Shadow Dragon Rook playthrough.

I am completely fine with what feels like one-sided pining, and even angst about what Lucanis actually wants out of Rook, but the game needs some mechanics to put into place to make it feel like Rook isn't just quietly okay with an empty relationship, or expect us to imagine things are happening when the game presents them as very much not.

So much of what is there is perfectly rife for fanfiction, but I expect the logical progression to be clear in the game where it really is just not. I have no idea how Lucanis/Rook get from point A to B to C. It feels like it is missing content, and it could even just be Rook-specific content to smooth it over. As it is now, it feels like an unconvincing story.

Maybe one day I'll play it again as a crow to see if that adds any crumbs, but for now I'm just feeling kinda conflicted for my poor Rook. I love the potential, but am not super pleased with the execution.

[sketchbeast]

No one can tell me Lucanis didn’t fall for Rook the moment he met her. 😤

[theesteppenwolf]

More Lucanis rambles because I’m still thinking about it and got nothing better to do :P

I am not here to tell anyone how to feel but putting words into peoples mouths who criticize the Lucanis romance (or Lucanis in general) for being unsatisfactory by saying;

“You don’t know what a slow burn is/ it’s because you expected zevran / you don’t get it he’s traumatized/ you just wanted something spicy and didn’t get it so now you’re mad” etc.

Is completely disregarding the fact that his lack of reactions and lack of content actually led people to believe he is bugged. Most DA fans didn’t expect spice or steam or whatever but they did expect an effective story, one they didn’t get.

This is at the end of the day a visual storytelling medium and implication will only get you so far, if i have to start thinking up entire plotlines in my head to make sense of the story or relationship progression then they failed at good storytelling. If i have to write paragraphs of explanations that the game doesn’t even remotely touch on then that isn’t a slow burn, it’s just a lack of content and poor pacing.

If he is traumatized and reluctant because of it you have to give me a scene where i can actually read that. If he is awkward and doesn’t know how to react to flirting you have to exaggerate to an extent for people to tell. If there is longing and angst give me banter that reflects it.

A romance in a game should give me some kind of deeper personal insight into a character and if i have to do the writers job and in my head think up those insights then the actual romance is mostly moot. I’m not saying give me all the details i’m saying at the very least give me a jumping point, some info buried in the game i won’t get otherwise. His romance fails at this.

Mary Kirby was fired yes and it’s awful what happened but unfortunately the product still remains and it leaves a lot to be desired for a big amount of people. When players are straight up going back on saves to romance someone else it’s a real problem. For me, it soured my first playthrough, especially later when i saw how Davrin and Emmrich had content, convos, specific romance outings and at the bare minimum actually had a noticeable reaction to flirting dialogue.

Again I’m not telling anyone how to feel, if it works for you that’s awesome, but to disregard his obvious lack of content by calling other fans basically stupid is incredibly disingenuous.

I love his character, loved it since The Wigmakers Job and he is still my favorite after my first playthrough. I think the beginning of his romance was very promising and the end is great but everything else is missing I’m sorry. His romance was not well executed and i honestly don’t think his character really was either. (But i won’t vent about that right now)

I know what a slow burn is, i was not expecting Zevran, i did not want a steamy romance. I wanted a well executed story and i didn’t get one. I am critical because i think it could’ve been great, i still love the game and i am not shitting on it, his character or other fans i just hate wasted potential.

[fxnharellll]

it’s acc crazy how excited me and others were to romance Lucanis and every romance dialogue i chose w him was just brushed off???😭 why do u not want my rook lmao. why is he so ready to flirt with neve whilst my rook is standing there like: 🧍🏽‍♀️like is this a third wheeling simulator. no one wants to pay $70 for a game that talks up its romance elements only to find the companions more interested in each other/minimal reactivity lmao.

I’m happily shacked up w emmrich finally 🤞🏽but oh my god, other than the almost kiss and that really sweet line of his at the end of the game, there’s NOTHING THERE????

that is not a slow burn, there’s absolutely no content there to consume. I’m running back to da2 after this, i miss my family so bad.

none of the romances in dragon age have been particularly explicit and it is NOT about the fade to black sex scenes (although BG3 spoiled me, i will admit): it’s about the yearning, the push and pull between ur Warden, Hawke and Inquisitor and their respective romances.

Anders was absolutely insane for his ‘I would drown us both in blood’. Cullen getting flustered cos of the Inquisitor??? Fenris laughing then immediately going 😐 cos he realised Hawke made him laugh? Alistair’s sweet romance with the warden??? His rose, his famous ‘I’ll be standing over here until the blushing stops’. Solas’ romance was notorious for having 3 sprinkled scenes in between a 60+ hour game with no sex scene and to this day, it is one of the most moving romances i have encountered in any media.

I don’t know why they said this was the most romantic dragon age ever lmfao like let’s stop lying out of our asses now pls !

[sewermageboy]

Alright, so. I like the Lucanis romance in general. But there is one major complaint I have, and it's this scene right here.

This is the romance lock-in scene.

Now, you'd be forgiven if you didn't catch that when watching the video, because literally the only indicator that this is the lock-in is the dialogue wheel telling you it is. Nothing happens narratively in this scene that would indicate the beginning of a relationship. If anything, there's gratitude and some light flirting.

The next time I took out Lucanis and Neve with me, Neve congratulated him on his relationship with Rook. Taash told him to take Rook flying on a date. And I'm just there like: "That's very sweet guys, but how the fuck do you know we're even together? Did the dialogue wheel tell you, too?"

My complaint about Lucanis' romance isn't that it isn't "spicy" enough or whatever, or that it's a slow burn. It's that it genuinely feels like an entire scene - the actual start of their relationship - is straight up missing. And honestly? That kinda sucks.

[maythedreadwolftakeyou]

idk man been sifting through my feelings on all this. and i think what it comes down to is i don't really care/mind that there are non-canonical (BY DEFINITION, if it is not IN the media, it is not in the 'canon', and this info was in tweets) statements about Lucanis' sexuality being demi/ace/him being a virgin. and i'm glad for people who like to incorporate that into their headcanons about the game/interpretation of his character and expand on that more than the game itself does, like, this is our space now baby do what makes you happy!

but personallyyyyyyy i just do not think these new labels are some magic bandaid that solves the flaws in the pacing and writing of his romance. Lucanis never talking to Rook about his feelings as they get to know each other (but sure is willing to talk to Rook about his feelings for Neve if you don't romance him) is not solved, for me, by saying "well he wouldn't be attracted until he got to know you and also has no experience with sex". the same way calling it a "slow burn" did not solve this for me. especially because right up until release he was being advertised as a "bisexual mess". but now was secretly a "panromantic demisexual" the whole time. it just... idk. you can say anything you want online, you know? but if you don't Show Me... well. i also don't like that people who are saying 'well this was Not part of his story in the game so i don't see it' are getting labeled as anti-ace when like, many of the criticisms i am seeing are coming from people who are themselves demi/ace lol. it's not asexual representation bc it is not in the game itself. (though honestly. i AM glad that that was not jammed into his story arc, and that his quests were about his agonizing over his family and the fact that he's now bodysharing with a demon. because his writing was never going to get MORE lines, and to take away any of the ones he had to put in a sexuality arc beyond an offhand mention would have really crashed that because the existing writing barely holds together as is. like there just was not room to have more so personally i am not criticizing Mary Kirby for her decision not to add it. but you can't not add something and then also claim it's a definitive part of his character. plus i dont think a character needs to know/understand/use modern labels anyway).

and personally i DO prefer an awkward/fumbling Lucanis, to be clear. Before Veilguard came out I was never expecting the sexy antivan lover angle because we got that once already: Zevran. I didn't want poor-imitation Zevran, and bioware would not write Lucanis like that to make sure he is a more distinct character anyway. BUT i do think it's reasonable in a bioware game to expect that a romance is going to have romantic content--and the number of times after his cutscenes i literally said aloud "go girl give us nothing" after he failed to react to a flirt was pretty sad. If he's awkward and nervous give him a line where he stutters and doesn't know how to react, not just a blank stare and back to business, or whatever. Or a scene where you can literally ask "you never respond to my flirting do you want me to stop" and for him to say say he likes it but doesn't know how to reciprocate or. ANYTHING. Idk. I have seen 10 different posts/takes on how the Wall Lean Scene fits in, be it that he was imitating a romance novel or it was crow seduction training or he was just pretending because that's how he's seen Illario do it but at the end of the day. It is all just speculation because nothing in the game EVER addresses how wildly different the tone of that scene is from every other one of his romance scenes. And as much as i love the Sexy Wall Lean, given the rest of his characterization in EVERY other romance scene, i think I'm at a point where i think the romance would have been better served by cutting it out and having a different scene where you actually get to talk to him instead.

but! that is not the game we were given. we only have what we have, which is the Veilguard content by Mary Kirby, and The Wigmaker Job written by Courtney Woods (where for reference, he mentions stumbling into an orgy on a previous job, and having an "interesting" time getting out of that, so i already think we have 2 different interpretations of his character between them anyway). but yeah idk man to me "well he's ace" is not an excuse for either gaps in the writing or cut content or whatever was going on. because 1. HE IS NOT AN ACTUAL PERSON he is a storytelling vessel that i felt failed to satisfyingly communicate the entire romance story and 2. even if he was a person saying 'well in ace relationships communication sucks' would also be, not great, you know. everything beyond the text itself is just interpretation and headcanons

[rin-hanarin]

I realized that I've never addressed the elephant in Lucanis's room, also known as his romance plot, as a "Had been delusional about him for months before release" individual, so here's a surprisingly long rant/summary of how I felt about it in the process of playing the game.

As a Rook de Riva player, I obviously loved "Coffee with the Crows": we met Illario, joked about haha three Crows talking about nothing, talked business, Rook and Lucanis had a nice moment getting to know each other better outside of being teammates, Rook de Riva's background was acknowledged again, it really felt like a nice bonding moment, right?

Thennn a whole lot of nothing happens during any of the conversations between them, huh. Lucanis doesn't acknowledge flirting, which is fine, take your time bud, you'll get there; you keep pushing being supportive, he ignores you, you deal with his personal stuff for him one (1) time, and in my case he then proceeds to ignore Rook for 10+ hours of pure game time while busy talking to Neve at every opportunity until I finally get one (1) dialogue option to "express romantic interest in Lucanis".

And let me express my honest innermost feelings on the matter:

Not only did it feel like Lucanis genuinely couldn't care less about Rook even as a friend, it also felt like Rook was forcing Lucanis into something he simply wasn't interested in and that we were just getting in the way of his relationship with Neve. It was genuinely unpleasant to experience in a videogame that is supposed to be wish fulfillment and whatnot, and let me tell you, it was especially jarring because Dragon Age games also have a tendency of occasionally making you feel like the most special little protagonist known to Thedas, at the very least to your companions who you're supposedly building bonds with.

I loved hangout events in this game, too, I was so happy to just have these conversations about whatever with companions, have these little one-on-one moments with them that genuinely felt like walks with friends (especially with my bro my bestie my homie Davrin), and with Lucanis it started and ended with the coffee date. His fears and doubts about Rook later are never addressed, and lol lmao even, yeah, why would they be, when it feels like he barely acknowledges Rook exists outside of accompanying him to deal with his problems, none of which need Rook there? There's no reason outside of gameplay for him to ask Rook and not, say, his favorite Neve he talks about everything to? Somehow a lot of times when I hoped for any sort of dialogue with him, I was met with him talking about something very personal like his current feelings about Illario to Neve, like, isn't Rook supposed to know anything about anything, or are we just his convenient weird coworker he sometimes asks favours from?

We persevere though and keep supporting Lucanis, and can you take a wild guess what was waiting for me after like 40 hours of the game and after the infamous "kabedon assassin style" scene? Yeah bro, Lucanis just happened to talk to Neve. I wish I was making this shit up. My coping strategy was to come up with an entire jealousy subplot for my Rook because if I have to feel like I'm in the shittiest unrequited situationship of a triangular shape, I might as well do it on my own terms, right? It feels petty and stupid because as a player I like Neve, too, she's one of the coolest (no pun intended) characters, but as Rook, and Rook de Riva making an obvious choice especially? Yeah, let's just say this relationship fucking sucked for a while.

So after many trials and tribulations we're finally back with Inner Demons, and yeah, Neve is there again, I couldn't even give a shit at that point, and I'll be real here, the locking in didn't feel like we went through angsty slowburn or that we earned Lucanis' trust. Remember DA2's Fenris situation? Because I suddenly did, and surely one of many, many Neve banters I had to eavesdrop on could be sacrificed to have one or two banters that acknowledged Lucanis's anything towards Rook at all?

Also, Spite? Spite seemingly likes Rook more than Lucanis does. In between "It's so over" and "We're so back" in the Fade Ossuary it feels like somehow Rook gets more bonding time with Spite, which is kinda crazy to me.

We are so back though! As I mentioned, I was a "delusional before release" individual, I am perfectly capable of filling the gaps and extrapolating meaning from implications, and here's where one of the most infuriating things is: the rest of the romance is good, too! I can write whatever the hell I want between the beginning and the end of it, but like, why should I? How should I go about it, when in my game I was under the impression that Lucanis would rather just spend time with anyone other than Rook for seemingly no reason in particular, because there's simply nothing there? The fact that none of my pre-release ideas or comics even necessarily contradict anything about Lucanis or his romance as it is now is more telling than impressive honestly.

So where do I land with this exactly? Well, mostly in the glorious Fanon Land where I've been making my silly comics the whole time anyway. The highs are high, I love what they did at the end and how stable, protective and devoted Lucanis is, but the lows made me salty as shit and I wish I didn't have to feel that way to begin with. I wish I didn't have to connect the dots and joke about how badly Lucanis sucks at this and "Let's go girl give us nothing." And yes, I know about writer lay-offs, rewrites, restarts, etc etc, and it's a miracle that this game came out at all, but it hardly matters when you're just trying to do the good old datesim part of a Dragon Age game and end up feeling like a third wheel while trying very hard to get anything out of the character you're interested in.

[holydivers]

veilguard is making me hate assan more and more. not only is he in every single fucking davrin scene and conversation, he's center stage for all of them. you can't even lock in the romance without an interruption to go "btw, assan will literally never be more than five feet away from davrin", which rook always responds to by saying that's part of davrin's charm. ???

took davrin and taash to the wetlands and they have some banter that's just talking about the consistency of assan's feces. and if that wasn't bad enough later they have ANOTHER bit of banter that's just a continuation of that one.

the culmination of davrin's character quests doesn't have a thing to do with him as a character. i haven't yet seen the result of sending the gryphons to the wardens, but even in the arlathan ending there's nothing about him, idk, wanting to make overtures towards his former clan and at least see them again instead of just assuming they'd scorn him, or reconsidering what he considers his inherent nature and purpose, or anything? he doesn't really address his thoughts on the gray wardens after everything that's learned.

everyone else's quest is ultimately about them and their own attitudes, even when the obligatory stooge plays a central part (emmrich's quest is ultimately about emmrich himself and not manfred. you could still have his main quest without manfred being there at all). but why would davrin change at all? bioware apparently just sees him as a vehicle through which they will make you see this stupid fucking bird

it should be COOL that gryphons are back and that davrin has one! but ultimately i never want to see this wretched flying rat again

[sad-endings-suck]

Is it annoying and wrong that Neve and Lucanis will immediately and consistently flirt with each other despite their respective relationship status with Rook? Even going as far as to eventually romance one another even after the blighted dragon choice, which locks Rook out of a romance with either of them, but apparently not with each other? Of course.

Is it equally annoying and wrong that they will flirt with each other and eventually romance one another (unless Rook romances one of them) no matter what, and there’s still no polyamours romance options? Absolutely.

[galpalaven]

“Lucanis and Neve’s romance lacks emotional depth”

No girl you got it backwards — his romance with Rook (and tbh all the romances with Rook) is the one lacking emotional depth lmao

[m-m-m-myysurana]

Was anyone going to tell me that Lucanis and Neve get more romance content than Lucanis and Rook agdjdhjddhk

After Lucanis makes Neve Her favourite dessert, they get to actually have a talk about their feelings!!

Where was my talk Bioware???

[pinkyjulien]

There is something really comfy about Lucanis being a ~30 something year old man confirmed to be demisexual and a virgin

[vanishcat]

Lucanis and my Rook romance scene. Don't watch if you don't want spoilers.

[theesteppenwolf]

The Lucanis romance sparseness is even more confusing to me now that I’ve run a Neve romance. I wondered if her romance felt similarly recycled from the NPC romance, and it was a situation where Lucanis/Neve was the original plan with a last minute decision to shoehorn them in as romances. Nope, Neve’s storyline is a fleshed out and enjoyable noir detective romance, with different angles depending on if you save Treviso or Minrathous. What on earth Bioware

That's the thing that sort of pisses me off a little when people try to defend his writing, compared to the other companions he quite literally doesn't have the content they have. Just looking at the quality and amount of speech bubbles I got with Davrin or Neve for instance is a huge tell. I could absolutely handle that amount of content romance or otherwise, but he doesn't get that.

I posted on here how he is the only companion who doesn't even get room progression. His missions are mostly fighting, only two outings in the whole game and compared to others the conversations are pretty short. I learned so much about Emmrich, Neve and Davrin through their outings and speech moments while i got basically nothing from Lucanis the whole game. They don't even tell you Caterina was abusing him, locking him in without food or water!? I mean come on.

I think his lack of content is hilariously obvious so i really don't get why some people get so upset when you point that out. I love him, he's my pookie fr but damn, Bioware turned in the towel with him, rushed his whole character to get the game out on time and that's just a fact.

[fxnharellll]

ok.

[butchvamp]

i really like a lot of the banter in veilguard, it's one of the few times the companions can actually exchange some verbal jabs especially at the start of the game. i've said repeatedly that this game is lacking friction and i stand by that ☝️ i think the problem isn't that they all automatically get along, some of them don't at all in the beginning-- Davrin and Lucanis i think are the most obvious, and Taash and Emmrich as well-- but the thing is. Rook just speaks their therapy-speak to them and suddenly it's all fine. we don't see a lot of the friction in cutscenes or significant questlines, only in banter.

again there is Davrin and Lucanis of course who i do think are the most successful and organic relationship in the game. and that's because we actually get to see them go from being hostile to supporting and ultimately liking each other, and it feels born out of mutual respect rather than Rook forcing them to hold hands.

i like a lot of Bellara and Neve's banter as well, and they seem to spend a lot of time together at the start of the game when there's not that many people at the Lighthouse yet, and Neve consistently shows up for Bellara during her story. i also like Neve and Lucanis together, they're very cute. there are definitely friendly relationships that feel natural, but then there are moments like where Taash bulldozes over Bellara when discussing Mythal's and Solas's relationship, and Bellara isn't allowed to snap back at Taash for being disrespectful. she (+ elven Rook) are also never allowed to call out Harding for her racism, we either have to agree or just not acknowledge it and always be really really nice to Harding specifically.... and i think little moments of friction within actual main plot beats and significant cutscenes (like is done with Davrin and Lucanis) would have made a lot of the dynamics more interesting rather than just dancing around it and relegating it to banter or limited interactions you could ultimately miss if you don't have them constantly in your party/aren't constantly checking in at the Lighthouse. also companion approval should actually matter and they should be allowed to vocally disapprove of Rook's choices.