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dailytechnologynews · 6 years ago

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No one will care about 3rd gen APUs and the H-Series if AMD doesn't take drivers seriously...

[Crossposted from /r/amd]

So I've posted quite a bit about the issues with Ryzen Mobile as it seems that AMD still hasn't started distributing drivers for Ryzen Mobile, even after more than a year since release and the appearance of over 30 unique devices running on those amazing Raven Ridge Mobile APUs.

Here's a quick overview of what I've done to grab AMD's attention:

Tweet at AMD, AMDRyzen, AMDGaming, LisuSu and HPSupport

Most popular post about the issues

Post AMD recognized about the issues

Post on AMD Support Forums

As you can see, enough people are having these issues and care about them because otherwise I wouldn't be getting guilded and my posts wouldn't be on the frontpage of /r/amd for as long as they were. It seems that many, many people are having these issues, but only about 1% from what I've seen actually do anything about it. Most people just complain that their system doesn't work and either replace their system or live with the issues. That isn't the way to deal with anti-consumer brands as by ignoring their acts we basically tell them that whatever they're doing is fine and they can just keep on doing it. Posts like the ones I'll be referencing later and this by /u/brokemyacct one are what we need to shine light on not only the outstanding performance of these APUs, but also the overly frustrating issues associated with only these APUs and not even relevant for older A-Series chips.

I've also spent lots of time chatting with others that own Ryzen Mobile systems to clarify that this isn't an HP issue, so any of you who planned on downvoting this post and commenting that HP sucks at driver support can simmer down and remember that this post is about all the driver issues on Ryzen Mobile devices and not just those limited to HP systems.

Issues

Drivers

The latest drivers to be found for Ryzen Mobile on any website are those from the Windows Update Catalog dated to the 30. August 2018, and by downloading drivers from HP, Acer or any of the other major brands you usually get older drivers from July of this year, repackaged as drivers from August/September. The Radeon Software is outdated as well as version 17.7 is from July of last year and is very basic without much control over the CPU/GPU in games or programs. Even amazing features that have finally made it over to Raven Ridge Desktop haven't found their way to Mobile yet such as Radeon ReLive or the Radeon Overlay. Radeon ReLive luckily can be installed with a workaround, but it isn't what we want, because seemingly everything is possible with a workaround, such as installing newer drivers that aren't designed for the GPU but do work somewhat.

What's also interesting is that it seems downloading drivers from say Acer on to your HP device and then installing those with the workaround doesn't seem to make a difference at all. The stability barely changes, the performance too and usually features don't disappear or get added based on the OEM that distributed the driver, basically proving that OEMs don't even touch the drivers much and if they do, they all do the same changes like seemingly lower clocks as installing unofficial drivers (18.9.3 for example) on my system will give me higher clock speeds even without changing anything in the BIOS or power plan settings.

Now, I know that some people will and some people already have mentioned that Linux has great open-source drivers. I'm aware and I just want to say that this of course is a thread about the driver situation on Windows and I'm not interested in hearing about Linux every time I write something like this. I paid for Windows 10 Pro for a reason and that's because I want to use Windows 10 Pro, otherwise I could've ordered the FreeDOS variant of my device. I need Windows 10 Pro, want Windows 10 Pro and dislike Windows 10 Pro and there are many other reasons for not wanting to or not being capable to switch to Linux which is why this is an issue and switching to Linux isn't an answer.

Stability

Now all of that wouldn't be so bad if the systems at least ran stable. Especially the PRO variants found in devices like the HP EliteBook 755 G5 shine a terrible light on Ryzen Mobile because these devices (and the ThinkPad series) are marketed at enterprise users that require a little more GPU power than can be found in an Intel SoC and would be perfect for the use-case if it wasn't for their lackluster stability; from VLC crashing, Adobe Programs not recognizing the GPU all the way to the system showing multiple BSoDs an hour means that getting an Intel system is the better option for those who really need to get work done and can't upgrade to a 2'000+ CHF device. If GPU performance really matters, the only stable option is something like the EliteBook 1050 G1, Dell XPS 15 or a workstation for ridiculous amounts of money, which is terrible because not everyone (including myself) can afford a device like that.

Just from talking about these issues to other people I have found that a) I'm not the only one dealing with these issues and b) issues exist that I don't even have to deal with or others don't have to deal with:

Ridiculous TDP limits (post by /u/MinecraftAddict131 explaining the problem a little better)

VLC crashing in DX11 mode, not in OpenGL or other modes (comment /u/WillingMagic confirming that this isn't an HP-only issue, GIF displaying the issue)

Adobe Programs not recognizing the GPU and thus I'm forced to use the software renderer (used to recognize it in the beginning, image to display the issue)

Blender3D not recognizing the GPU (used to recognize it in the beginning as was Adobe Premiere Pro)

DX11 (and other) games not allowing to change the resolution, sometimes even with stock drivers (comment/u/MynnyD confirming that this happens on his Lenovo ThinkPad E485 with any non-OEM drivers)

Weird screen flickering when Vari-Bright is enabled (GIF to display the issue)

Framedrops in games when Chill and Target Framerate Control are enabled

Random crashing with BSODs often resulting in data loss (image displaying the issue)

Crashing when installing workaround drivers (image displaying the issue)

Can't change screen brightness with the F3/F4 keys, no option in the battery quick menu, have to go to the energy settings

The sad part about these issues is that clearly most of them are driver/software related meaning that with some simple BIOS and driver patches these issues could be resolved, possibly bringing these APUs back into the regular consumers' eyes and keeping people optimistic about the future APUs to be released. Already with the A-Series APUs AMD kind of messed up, even though even those are getting driver support, and I should know, because the EliteBook I'm currently writing this post on was supposed to replace my notebook with an A10 APU and R5 dGPU which is still getting driver updates!

/u/BadReligion even went as far as to contacting an HP Rep only to be disappointed by the fact that these HP employees like to point fingers at AMD when AMD points fingers at the OEMs for not updating the drivers as they should.

Especially the BSODs are annoying because of how common they are and usually result in data loss which means that I'm constantly saving files instead of focusing on writing them. As a programmer, spamming CTRL + S isn't as bad, but it's really freaking annoying to do this in literally every program and even on Reddit I've started using drafts.

Another interesting, and sad, thing is that most tech reviewers and tech journalists don't write about these issues even though some of them should know about these. Now either it means that they don't test enough or they're being paid to STFU, which sucks. The only reviewer I could find mention the issues is Solid State Tech that didn't a long-term real world review of the Envy x360 and mentions the issues in the middle of his video, but nothing to be found in the title or description about the issues. If reviewers and journalists would make people aware of the issues, less people would buy a product they don't want and AMD would get their shit together way quicker.

Performance

In addition to the lack of stability on some systems, it's clear that OEMs are "nerfing" the devices as I've done a lot of testing as well as others have to figure out pretty quickly that by simply installing "incompatible"/unofficial drivers like 18.10.1 can yield in major performance gains as this comment by /u/WillingMagic displays really well where someone benched his system with different drivers and also confirmed that his system is having issues with VLC even though he owns an Asus.

/u/MinecraftAddict131 also put in a lot of work to finding out that his Huawei Matebook - which I might add has one of the best implementation of Ryzen Mobile - could perform way better if it wasn't for these crippling factors that even Huawei implemented into their otherwise great system as he watercooled his device and explained in this post that removing the limits would give him way better (and expected) performance. He already went about bricking his system because of how "desperate" he is and I really think it's impressive how much work and trust people put into these AMD systems when all AMD - and the OEMs - do is disappoint us at seemingly every turn.

There are many others posts that display the issue and how unofficial drivers result in way better performance across all Ryzen Mobile systems such as this one from /u/bobzdar. Also /u/BadReligion (TechEpiphany) made some videos comparing the performance of the different drivers showing extremely well that drivers that aren't even designed for Vega Mobile perform better than those distributed by OEMs:

Ryzen 7 2700 Review PUBG *new drivers!* awesome performance

AMD Ryzen 5 2500U driver comparison. 17.7 "Official" vs. 18.1.1 Wolfenstein II

Far Cry 5 Ryzen 5 2500U Vega 8 "18.3.4" Driver Gameplay Benchmark iGPU

Request

Now, I've seen /u/AMDOfficial's reponse to mainly my posts and it seems that they're just trying to pull some PR bullshit by saying that they will "enable OEMs" to update their drivers twice a year. This sounds like the complete opposite of what we wanted as the first thing we wanted was more updates and secondly for those two come directly from AMD but with their statement they basically said that we'll be stuck with twice-annual updates that are as buggy as they are now and that AMD doesn't give enough shits to distribute the reference drivers (that exist FFS!) on their website or they're being limited by some clause.

So, for you AMD PR people that seemingly can't read, here's what we want. Separated by line breaks to make it as easy as possible to read and bold in case you have a vision problem:

Drivers for Ryzen Mobile coming straight from your website.

Drivers for Ryzen Mobile as part of your regular driver packs.

Future driver support for Ryzen Mobile (2-3 years at least!).

Ryzen Master for Ryzen Mobile.

More control over our hardware with Ryzen Master for Mobile.

Drivers from the OEMs for those who want "optimized" drivers.

Future

The point I want to bring over with this post is that if AMD doesn't take drivers seriously, no one will care how good the hardware of the upcoming (leaked) H-Series processors and 3rd gen Ryzen Mobile APUs will be if they don't update the current-gen's drivers. Ryzen Mobile was the same story, the very first laptop I remember seeing with Ryzen Mobile was the Lenovo IdeaPad and just seeing the Vega badge gave me a little hard-on. Then the first benchmarks rolled out and even though everyone knew that the idiots at Lenovo made a bunch of mistakes, those Vega iGPUs kicked intel's ass into the future and showed that an iGPU could keep up with current-gen dGPUs.

But in the end of the day, people still buy intel/nVidia systems even if they cost more and intel and nVidia are less pro-consumers because those systems just work and in terms of drivers intel and nVidia are actually more pro-consumer than AMD is.

The only thing AMD is doing that's really pro-consumer is making "pro" hardware available for the masses and not hiding products like Vega and Threadripper behind "pro" paywalls. And it does seem that their taking notice of what's going on with their recently made post and as this post shows, it seems that they have done some kind of "silent update" and quite possibly are working on Raven Ridge Mobile drivers meaning that there's a chance for us believers.

Update

It seems that AMD does read these posts as they responded to one of mine and made a thread about it that got massively upvoted, which is really sad because all in all they simply said that they don't care about their consumers and will make our situation worse by only enabling OEMs to release drivers every 6 months instead of every 3 months which is currently technically the case. You people need to understand that we don't want them to simply listen, we want to see change and we want to see drivers. Not some wimpy PR guy behind his desk trying to sooth us down. With their statement they also made it fairly clear that they don't plan on updating the drivers themselves and will just let the OEMs do whatever they want. Obviously I responded to that thread and the comment under my thread with an aggressive and a less aggressive response.

Also, my mainboard was replaced today, and as expected, nothing changed. VLC still crashes, the Radeon Settings are still outdated (obviously) and Adobe Programs still don't recognize my GPU for hardware acceleration. I haven't had a chance to check Blender3D or games yet, but this is enough to prove that we're dealing with driver issues, which is what I'll be telling the HP Support to make sure we either get new drivers (which won't happen) or I get a new system that works for free. It can't be that after all this time investment I still can't get my work done, which is important unlike the issues some are having with games which might be aggravating, but not vital.

Question

What drivers are you Ryzen Mobile users using and how's your experience with them been? I'm currently using the newest available from Windows Update which is dated to the 30.08.2018 which is honestly just... meh. Obviously it's more stable than those from AMD (18.10.2 etc.) which is why I'm using them, but the performance is lackluster and features like Adobe Mercury Render Engine - Hardware Acceleration don't work which is something I'm really pissed off about because it was one of my main requirements for my new laptop: HW acceleration, but now after the repair still isn't working and going to waste more of my time trying to convince HP that I need better drivers or a different device.

EDIT: Added paragraph about Linux not being an option for many of us even if the drivers are better, because it simply isn't the right solution for the most of us!

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