#like you guys DO realize that c!wilbur is evil enough in canon

[cdroloisms]

I love certain fan interpretations of c!Dream + c!Wilbur specifically when they literally just read like: This is c!Wilbur! He's charismatic and a good leader and cool and my favorite character! And this is Evil c!Wilbur, who is basically c!Wilbur only he's a stronger fighter and he kicks puppies for fun.

[grace13star]

There’s been a recent uptick in posts claiming that “c!Wilbur is a worse villain than c!Dream” or that he’s “more manipulative” and it’s made me think a lot about just....how villainized Wilbur is? Because while he has done bad things, I’ve seen people just making things up or projecting onto him and making him just. so much worse than he is in canon. 

Again, this is all about the characters in the Dream SMP roleplay and are not the actual people. 

Let’s go over the bad things Wilbur is accused of doing. These are arguments I have actually seen people use and defend with their whole chest. 

1. Created a nation. 2. Sell drugs. 3. Talk about rigging an election. 4. Was a dick. 5. Blew up a nation. 6. Died. 7. Manipulation. 8. Neglectful dad. 9. Child soldiers. 10. Dictator. 11. “Threw a fit” over losing. 

Let’s talk about these and break them down a little. Another disclaimer, this isn’t trying to excuse any hurt that Wilbur has caused, because his actions did cause harm, but this is trying to explain and add context to things that are often taken out of context or just wholly misinterpreted.

1. A common argument for why this makes Wilbur evil is that he “stole Dream’s land.” But like...no. L’Manberg was created on untouched land where no one was living, and had a combined area smaller than Purpled’s garden. Dream, until he declared war, didn’t even care about them making their nation. 

I’m also including in here the claim that he “turned Dream into a villain.” ....What are you talking about. Before Wilbur was even on the server, Dream was part of the disc war, where he stole Tommy’s discs, and then kept perusing them even after the initial conflict ended, including griefing Tommy’s lawn. Before war was declared, Dream and his friends kidnapped and killed Tubbo and Tommy. Dream then also declared war on a peaceful nation (Wilbur said “if they try to declare war we will just say ‘no’”). None of that was in any way forced by Wilbur. Dream made his decisions on his own. Just because someone comes in and says “hey you suck,” doesn’t mean you have to actually suck. Dream made his own decisions, and his decision was to become a villain. 

2. Potions (drugs) are an infinite resource in Minecraft and everyone uses them. This is a stupid argument. 

3. Some people act like he actually did rig the election but...he didn’t. He definitely could have! Quackity wasn’t a citizen of L’Manberg, Wilbur could have banned him from the election easily, especially since his running mate was a previous enemy of L’Manberg. But he let him run, and then he let Fundy and Schlatt run as well. The worst he did here was talk about doing something bad. Also the reason he was trying to consolidate power wasn’t just for the sake of having power. There was, at the time, a civil war going on, and Wilbur tried to stop it but no one listened to him. He wanted the power to be able to protect his citizens and stop a war. 

4. Being a dick is not evil.

5. This is by far the worst thing Wilbur did, and though it hurt a lot of people emotionally, it really wasn’t as bad as everyone says it was. Though the explosion caused property damage, it only destroyed the podium and some of the walkway. People’s actual houses- Manifoldland, Niki’s bakery- were totallu untouched. No one even died in the explosion- the worst thing that happened was Quackity being blown back, but he landed in water. (This isn’t to say that characters shouldn’t be hurt by this! Wilbur betrayed them and definitely hurt them, but people acting like the 16th was worse than Doomsday and also blaming Wilbur for Doomsday even though he was dead is weird.)

There’s also the claim that Wilbur blew it up for the sole purpose of hurting people, which is easily disproved by just...watching a Wilbur stream. Like seriously, stop trying to do analysis on Wilbur if you haven’t even watched his streams. Wilbur had multiple chances to blow everything up, but when he had the choice between blowing it up and hurting people or not hurting people and not blowing it up, he chose the latter every time. At the festival, while Tubbo was trapped on the stage, he stopped going for the button. When Tommy and Quackity were in the button room which would have exploded if he pressed it, he refused. Also I’m gonna use the Reddit post that’s confirmed canon again- Wilbur blew up L’Manberg because he saw how much power it had, and he saw how it hurt people. He tried to destroy it to save everyone from the pain and conflict caused by the nation. He didn’t think they would rebuild. 

6. This one is the one that actually makes me angry. Because guys....Wilbur’s death was a suicide. If Phil wasn’t there, Wilbur would have done it himself- he had been planning to do it himself for months, as there was originally TNT in the button room that would have killed him with the explosion. The reason it makes me angry is because suicide is an extremely serious topic. Characters and the fandom framing it as “Wilbur left or abandoned them” is an ableist take that enforces the stereotype that suicide is a “weak” option or that it’s “running away.” 

There’s also people that will villainizing him for “forcing Phil to kill him” but while I empathize with Phil and realize it was a stressful situation, Phil very much made his own decisions here too. Wilbur didn’t force Phil to kill him, he asked him a few times and then Phil did it. 

7. Again, this is not an attempt to excuse, but an attempt to explain. So first of all, people try to claim that Wilbur was manipulative from the beginning. This is false. Persuasion and making sure someone is “loyal to a cause” is not manipulation. And then Pogtopia- he’s never manipulative in Pogtopia, again, he is only persuasive. I have a longer post that goes into more detail, so definitely check that out. After he is revived, he is definitely guilt tripping Tommy in his most recent stream, but (again, not an excuse) it’s clearly from his desperation to not be alone anymore after 13 years of near constant isolation. 

I’ve also seen claims that Wilbur manipulated Techno and that Techno didn’t know they were planning on starting another government, but this is easily disproven by the fact that Wilbur said multiple times that they’re “taking back L’Manberg” and that he wants to be it’s “rightful ruler” again while Techno was in vc. What about that implies they’re not going back to the government. 

Also since this is relevant- he never manipulated Niki. He was always kind and caring with Niki, even through his mental breakdown. He wasn’t able to bring her into Pogtopia at first, but he talked to her and made sure she’d be okay there (and she said yes!), he offered his life for hers at the festival before hitting people around them and yelling at her to run, she was the first person he gave Blue to, he gave her an inspirational speech and showed her the fox that had been left for her, she was one of the few things Ghostbur remembered. He betrayed and hurt her, but it was not manipulation.

Gonna combine this with this point also but Wilbur was not in any way abusive. A lot of people in this fandom for some reason equate “unhealthy relationship” with “abuse”, especially after the exile arc. Wilbur and Tommy’s relationship, while unhealthy, was not abusive. Please learn the difference. 

Also, if you’ve ever said that “Wilbur gaslit anyone” or that Wilbur is “insane” I want you to define those terms for me right now. No looking anything up. Tell me what they mean. Do it.  

8. What about any of Wilbur and Fundy’s dynamic implies any kind of neglect. No, seriously, where did this take come from. Wilbur was canonically overbearing and he babied Fundy. While it definitely wasn’t the best relationship, it definitely wasn’t neglectful. The only times in canon we’ve seen Wilbur be separated from Fundy was when he was exiled and Fundy cheered while he was shot and killed, when Fundy disowned him in front of their enemy, and when he committed suicide. Even before his death, when they were still on rocky terms, Wilbur stepped forward to defend Fundy from Schlatt in the van. 

9. This take is irrelevant. Child soldiers don’t matter. For one, this is Minecraft. Every single person has equal opportunities. Anyone can become powerful no matter what age they are as long as they grind enough. For another thing, at the beginning part of the roleplay no one was trying to make a long serious story about war and trauma, it was just some friends fucking around and fighting each other. Wilbur also revealed that while writing the Revolution arc that he headcanoned Tommy and Tubbo to be about 20- we know these ages aren’t correct because they’ve been reffered to by their irl ages in lore- but it shows that the “these are children” plot point was added way later- no one mentions it at all in season 1. It doesn’t matter. 

10. This is directed at one person. You know who you are. 

A dictator is defined as “one holding complete autocratic control : a person with unlimited governmental power.” Wilbur didn’t have control. That’s the whole reason for the election. It literally takes one google search to prove you wrong. 

11. There’s a difference between “losing” and “being unfairly exiled by your political opponent who is now declaring himself emperor.” Wilbur was totally fine with losing. He said during the election that he was fine with Quackity winning, and when they actually did lose, though he wasn’t happy about it, he encouraged Tommy to calm down and told him “We’re citizens tonight.” He only “threw a fit” after he was thrown out of the nation he built by someone who immediately declared himself emperor. 

So in conclusion, Wilbur Soot is an antagonist, but he is villified way beyond canon and I’m getting tired of some of these takes that I see over and over again that are easily disproved by just using critical thinking skills. 

This is most of the takes I’ve seen- some I haven’t even dignified with a response because of how clear it is that someone is just lying to try and excuse someone else’s actions- but if anyone has anymore they’ve seen that they want me to talk about, my ask box is open. 

[thespoonisvictory]

Please explain why Schlatt is the best character on the SMP.

(Alternatively, I would be really interested in hearing more about your dislike for Quackity's produced lore. Personally, I love it, so I'm really intrigued whenever someone says that they're not fond of it).

as much as I love schlatt, I think I'll answer the quackity question, because I've been meaning to.

first of all, I think I should clarify that I'm definitely biased, because my favorite streamers, outside of the dsmp universe, tend towards semi lore, or, at least, not whatever quackity's doing. I'm used to it, and people tend to not like change lol.

second of all, I really do like quackity's produced lore, but I don't like certain aspects of it, and find myself preferring semi lore in general. I don't think he should stop doing it so much as I think he should use it as an occasional technique rather than conveying near 100% of his story with it. big q is very talented and I commend him for taking such a bold approach, which I think pays off in some ways.

third, to me, semi lore is any lore that breaks the fourth wall in that it isn't trying to be something other than a minecraft stream, it's all in first person, and none of it is prerecorded. for example: most of wilbur's pogtopia streams are semi (or casual) lore to me, because he'll thank subs and joke with schlatt about getting techno a girlfriend, but it's still largely in canon.

anyway, in true jenny nicholson fashion, let's kick off with a numbered list.

1. this post, by patches, explains a bit of why the lore streams can get a bit disconcerting to me. the dsmp have always had a bit of charming awkwardness in their improv, because these are for the most part just Some Guys acting, and under the guise of a stream where it's just a Streamer Playing Minecraft, it fits. but the highly produced nature just- creates such a disparity between the quality of the cinematography and the acting that it's a little weird, y'know?

2. in some cases, semi lore allows for dread to be built in a unique way. during the exile arc, tommy would have lighthearted streamer jokes and bits, shout out subs, pretend like things were normal. he never acknowledges that his situation is messed up, that his condition is getting worse, that things are falling apart. it's a quiet, sinking, horror that creeps along over the course of weeks. it's important to the viewer that we are there every day to see the slow progress, to understand why tommy gets pushed so far down. besides the impracticality of 14 highly produced lore streams, you would lose a lot of the subtlety there.

the smp is such a unique medium in that the stream style itself is so telling. when tommy actively doesn't acknowledge what's happening, it makes the abuse that's occurring seem so much worse. when wilbur drops little hits about his depression or his plans in between lighthearted, ooc jokes, it lulls the audience into a false sense of security.

imagine a version of the 'forming las nevadas' story where quackity does it over the course of four nights. the slow realization of his manipulation tactics disguised by an unassuming stream format, because it's still quackity, joking around and laughing until he approaches the next person and he shifts into his 'persona'. when he finishes the conversation, we watch his face fall, his smile fade, as he walks back to an empty las nevadas. it would build hype, not to mention taking less work, and letting the audience see a bit more of quackity's humanity.

3. I mentioned it before, but it just straight up takes less time. I'm willing to wait, of course, but there's something to be said about the merits of pacing and being able to throw together a lore stream last minute. take, for example, tommy's death. it wouldn't have been nearly as impactful without the rushed, oddly somber flurry of livestreams that came after. jack didn't need a highly produced montage of him standing by tommy's grave as the seasons passed, of his planting flowers everyday. what turned out to be effective was just- him, walking around, coming to terms with his grief, completely silent for periods of time.

it was mourning. plain and simple, with no embellishment or evil villain music, shockingly earnest.

I don't think you could replicate that raw, undone feeling with a prerecorded, pre-produced, semi-movie. it feels like all of a sudden jack's pov was important enough that he had to stream, and there it was.

you could argue that this could be planned beforehand, but I think more often than not, that's a. not really feasible, and b. going to take away from the organic nature.

we all like candid shots, 'authentic' vlogs and influencers. to me, this is just one more extension of that rule.

4. under the same idea, you can make more. we spend more time with the streamers, and therefore the characters, and get to know their more human side. wilbur, for example, is deeply humanized by little things that you just couldn't really fit into a lore stream: his dynamic with niki, all his little moments of hesitation, his banter with tommy and his true love for l'manburg. who c!wilbur is is built up over hours and hours of comments and suggestions and one-off statements, and we just don't have time for that in quackity's lore. the transitions are snappy, filled with beautiful shots, but they don't allow for as much depth of character as that awkward little walk from place to place, that quiet monologue they do to themselves.

it's not impossible for you to do that, as with c!quackity and c!charlie serving as a 'morality pet', but at this risk of repeating myself endlessly, it's more earnest and organic in a sense.

5. last, I just really like multiple povs. one of my favorite bits from s1 is the fundy spy arc, because of how effectively multiple povs are used. streams where wilbur is deeply, deeply distraught over fundy's betrayal but thinks fundy doesn't care, while fundy is deeply, deeply distraught over wilbur's prior treatment of him but thinks he doesn't care. and you could watch both at the same time! quackity's pov isn't as personal when it uses third person, which is a bit sad because I think it's a unique aspect of livestreaming every perspective.

(I'm so sorry if this isn't coherent or makes any sense I'm very brain dead and tired from speedrunning three essays yesterday)

basically, I think quackity's lore style is good for big, grand events, occasionally. it's very cool to watch, definitely builds hype, and can make certain things easier, such as coordinating a bunch of people or doing special effects.

but for building a plot and establishing character dynamics, I really prefer semi/casual lore.

[quicksandblock]

Tbh I actually do remember seeing c!Dream apologism in like the middle of season 1. There wasn’t a lot and it was centered around a headcanon that framed c!Dream in a positive light and as a victim of circumstance who had no choice to be evil. Most notably that headcanon also centered around making c!Wilbur look worse by comparison! I think this was shortly after the Tyrant book thing. Since then I feel like c!Dream apologists have still retained the same sort of line of thinking. Take some small canon lines and fluff them out with headcanons to make him seem far more sympathetic then he is and make the other characters look worse in comparison.

bruh I used to be one of them, minus the part about Wilbur being bad. that line of thinking used to make a lot more sense before Exile and everything that came after!! I never thought Wilbur was a bad person for it, because he had a war to win and was doing whatever he had to to win it, but I very much did think that Wilbur used his influence to cast Dream in a villainous role during the war for independence, and I thought that part of the cause of Dream's downfall was him taking that to heart. I thought that Dream took Tommy's offer of the discs (which I thought Wilbur had inspired him to make) because it was the only way out he could see from the destruction of his reputation. I never saw their relationship as "Wilbur bad, Dream good and naive, Wilbur forced Dream to be a bad guy," because that is complete horseshit and removes all agency from Dream's DECISION to do the cruel and horrible things he's done, but I did used to think that Wilbur's propaganda played a major role in pushing Dream off the slippery slope to what he is now.

And I was wrong. I turned out to be completely wrong about it!! Well, tbh I do still think there are elements of it that hold true - my thoughts on this may change more when we see them finally interact, but I do think Wilbur had an influence on Dream and Dream respected him a lot. But I was completely wrong about the disc deal, which was kind of the cornerstone of the theory for me.

See, when I came up with that theory and held those opinions, I hadn't fully watched the pre-Wilbur Disc Wars yet. I didn't realize how important the discs were. They seem like such a frivolous item, without the context I didn't realize how deeply they mattered to both Tommy and Dream - so the whole theory was based on the idea that there had to have been some other reason that Dream would take that deal. But there wasn't. He just wanted those discs badly enough to let L'Manburg live.

I think that's one of the main things a lot of Dream apologists, and specifically the people who think the Disc Finale was staged, are missing. They don't understand that it's not that deep - he really does just want those discs. (And he wants Tommy too, to complete the collection.) The discs may be a silly, useless minecraft item, but they are deeply important to Dream. If you don't understand that, you're never going to be able to accurately understand his character.

All that stuff aside, I think you're completely right about the Dream apologists building their theories on headcanon. They got really attached (ha) to the character and their idea of him early on, and when canon showed that he was actually different and that idea of him was inaccurate, they couldn't let it go. So they built headcanons off of headcanons instead of building everything on the solid foundation of canon, and now their idea of canon is so far off of ACTUAL canon that both sides think the other one is delusional because the two "canons" don't resemble each other at all.

I want to be clear, I'm not badmouthing people who hold those opinions at all, because *raises megaphone* THIS IS ALL ABOUT BLOCK MEN ROLEPLAY, IT IS NEGATIVE LEVELS OF IMPORTANT IN THE REAL WORLD, THINKING THAT SOMEONE IS A BAD PERSON BECAUSE OF THEIR FLAWED BLOCK MEN LITERARY ANALYSIS IS UNBEARABLY DUMB. And tbh if someone wants to just go off on their own with their favorite version of their favorite character and write fluffy fix-it fic all day and ignore canon, more power to them! Fucking go for it!! Gods know I've done the same thing. People getting too heated to just live and let live is how we got in this bizarre, polarized situation we're in today :(

[petrenocka]

/rp

I once was of the opinion that c!Quackity is a villain. But than someone pointed out that he is power-hungry because he wants to use power to help his friends, so not evil. And for a long time after that I was like "he's an antivillain that's fine". But now I rewatched some older vods and understood, no he's not! His is as villainious as it gets!

First of all, that "oh, he just wants to use power to help people" bs. No he's not. Oh, maybe he acts like it, maybe he said this a couple of times, hell, he might even believe this is what he is doing himself. But he is lying! He was in a major position of power two times. He never, ever, brought any positive change. Never. Not a single one. He could have helped Niki out of being overtaxed, but didn't, for example. In order to use your power to help people, at some point you have to start doing it. c!Quackity never does. He is always focused on getting more power. He never stops to start doing good. Even if he thinks and says that he wants to help people he is not just wrong, he is lying.

And I am going to say this: c!Quackity destroyed L'manburg. Maybe not on purpose, but he literally did everything in his power to get rid of that country. For the beginning he endorsed Jschlatt. c!Quackity's official reason for campaign in the first place was making sure that there was more than one party, so the election is truly democratic and c!Wilbur isn't a tyrant. So what does he do? He joines forces with the man that is openly against democracy, the man that is not even trying to hide the fact that he is going to become a tyrant. That is a huge act of hypocrisy if I ever saw one. And why does he do that? Because c!Wilbur was trying to use him. In other words - out of petty. That's right! The reason why Jschlatt got to be president was c!Quackity's pettiness! And by the end of it, when he started to realize that being on Jschlatt's side won't get him far and in order to stay in power, c!Quackity switches sides. Not even because of how bad Schlatt is, but because he took down Quackity's built! So again: pettiness.

And his rule over New L'manburg. Oh boy. First, c!Quackity is at the very top, a de-facto leader of a country. Proving my previous point, instead of helping people he decides to gain even more power, by making his country stronger. Seems logical, a little, until you see how is he going to do it. Instead of attracting new people, building the economy, infrastructure, strong military, he decides to instead do it by making an enemy ot of a potentially powerful ally and making his enemies hate L'manburg even more! Yes I am talking about Philza and Techno. Philza, against all odds, was on L'manburg side, or at least was leaning towards supporting them. They could make a friend out of wise and powerful Angel of Death, and by proxy Technoblade. But instead they antagonize Philza, and attack Techno, in an attempt at political terrorism. c!Quackity traded potentially powerful allies and strong military for a possibility of intimidating others. A plan that, even if it worked out, would most likely lead to all other factions uniting against L'manburg. But it didn't work out because Butcher Army was horribly underprepared. They had no potions, little gaples and they were using unenchanted diamond axes! And not like they didn't have proper weapons, the reason they had to use these axes was Quackity's racism against pigs. All of this to get rid of c!Quackity's canonical Technophobia. So the reason c!Quackity f**ked up any chance New L'manburg had, was a petty grudge. I am starting to notice patterns. Immediately after getting power he uses it selfishly. But even if not, if that really was a purely political move, it doesn't make him tragic or justified, it makes him an absolute idiot! And then when all shit hit the fan he again tried to book it.

So to all Tommy apologists that hate on Techno and Philza for destroying L'manburg: you are blaming the wrong guys!

And if even after all of this you still somehow don't hate c!Quackity, then please comment or repost your opinion and why I am wrong, I am very interested in any criticism of my thoughts you might have, seriously. But before that, listen to this last thing:

After Ranboo had his whole pre Doomsday speech about sides and conflict c!Quackity's immediate reaction was trying to push the president to execute him. An innocent. You know the real reason c!Quackity wanted to kill Ranboo? Not because of betrayal. He clearly doesn't care about Techno spawning Withers on 16th he says this himself before his and Techno's duel. And I don't believe he is conscious enough to admit to himself that they were the ones who did the betrayal and manipulation (clip proving that Techno was manipulated by Pogtopians). So c!Quackity shouldn't care about c!Ranboo's supposed betrayal. So why did he want him executed then? Because c!Ranboo was promoting anty-government ideology. He was making sense, so it was a threat to the government and as such, a threat to c!Quackity's power. I repeat: c!Quackity wanted to kill c!Ranboo for peacefully promoting an ideology that threatened c!Quackity's status.

In conclusion: c!Quackity is very evil, I would say not as bad as c!Dream but definitely much worse than c!Schlatt. He is definitely not stupid as shown in that clip. And I am very excited for upcoming c!Quackity lore. I expect some karmic justice, or at least acknowledging his mistakes, if we are lucky maybe even character development. But it it will play c!Quackity as a misunderstood, mistreated, unlucky hero I am going to quit following every storyline except for Antarctic Neighbors.

*drops mic*