#like the jedi are political they have their own agendas and goals lol

[lyriumsings]

ngl I think the acolyte put the stakes even higher than andor because like every main character from his planet managed to survive in the end and honestly I was kinda expecting some of them died lol I liked that they weren’t afraid to do it in the acolyte

RIGHT? SO much of star wars feels afraid to like idk go there! like bringing back that stupid fucking cowboy in the mandalorian like i’m sorry but he just fucking annoyed me i literally didn’t care that he survived lmao. Everyone is always saying “we want a darker star wars! we want it to be more serious! explore other stories! etc” they FINALLY do that! and they’re complaining bc i guess it ruined their ships? like bruh 💀 like this isn’t shock value to me if anything the story is streamlined. After spending so many years watching shows lose the plot by adding on more and more and more characters, splitting the narrative 50 different ways until the character arcs are just this incestuous snake eating its own tail like!! i’m glad this story is FOCUSED! the MAIN characters are mae and osha and their masters and just the age old sith/jedi/force philosophy argument which tbqh i LOVE!

[benperorsolo]

(2) So for all we know his entire life experience is childhood with Han and Leia, Jedi training with Luke afterwards, all while Snoke was gradually indoctrinating him and rooting around in his head, and then his position as a commander in the FO. The expanded materials tells us Kylo's job in the FO is interrogation and leading troops into battle, so for all we know his entire life has just been about his personal pain without any set ideologies. I doubt he has thought-out political agendas.

^^^

This turned into a long rant, and for that I’m sorry, lol. This has been building in me for a long time.

I think people way overblow Ben’s politics in this fandom, and it’s actually one of my pet peeves. People tend to act like Ben legitimately believes in the project of the First Order, or at least whatever the hell it was he proposed to Rey in TLJ (hint: the FO was conspicuously not on his list of things to let die), and that he has some sort of radical, benevolent political agenda. They also like to act like he opposes the Resistance or the Republic on legitimate ideological grounds. Ben doesn’t have any articulated political agenda beside ‘self-medicate my pain via trying to take control of the galaxy as a substitute for feeling powerless over my own internal world and my own life’. That’s it. It’s not good or noble or even sensical. It’s entirely emotionally driven. 

To break down why:

In the first act of TFA, before we ever even see Kylo’s face or know his true identity, Hux warns Kylo to be careful ‘that [his] personal interest not interfere with orders from Leader Snoke.’ So here, we establish two things: that Kylo has an agenda that he places above the general agenda of the FO, and that he will actively pursue this agenda above the FO one. This agenda is, of course, finding the droid that will lead to Luke Skywalker. We later find out in TFA that Kylo Ren is actually Ben Solo, Luke Skywalker’s nephew, and that therefore this ‘personal interest’ is in fact deeply personal, not ideological. 

And in TLJ, we find out why Ben would go after his own uncle— because Luke (from Ben’s POV) tried to kill him. There’s something also deeply important and largely unexplored by the fandom as to why this would rankle Ben so much that he would go on a six-year long vendetta to kill his uncle, besides the whole attempted murder thing. Because what did that attempted murder kick-start? His fall to the Dark Side. His descent into becoming Kylo Ren, becoming Snoke’s apprentice, becoming a monster. A monster that he clearly hates himself for being (’and there was no menace in his voice, only misery’). Which is, again, another huge indication that no, Ben did not join the FO because he believed in their ideals or because he thinks that they’re right. He joined them because he felt that there was nowhere else to go, that the Dark Side was the only place where he might find belonging. He’s not trying to find Luke because it will help the FO achieve their goals. He’s trying to find Luke because he wants revenge (or at least, he thinks he wants that).

And this is carried over into his tenure as Supreme Leader. You can literally see when the lightbulb ‘goes on’ for Ben— here:

Before this, after the heat of battle, he’s looking at Rey, and only her. Then Rey trails off, and she realizes that he’s not looking at her anymore. He’s eyeing the throne. This is not framed at all like this was Ben’s plan all along, hence the emphasis placed on Rey’s realization that his focus has shifted from her (the Light) to the throne (the Dark). It’s framed as a belated revelation. A temptation back into the grip of the Dark Side —power— that Ben falls to after just reaching the cusp of getting out. Ben did not purposefully stride to the throne and claim power, vowing to start freeing the slaves and feeding the children. He doesn’t have an actual agenda, just post-hoc justifications for what he’s doing as a consequence of his emotional pain.

And this total lack of an agenda and complete irrationality in the face of the object of his emotional pain is exceptionally evident on Crait. When he sees the Falcon, which represents Rey (read: someone who sees the real him, someone who allowed him a way out and didn’t coddle him on his current path), his father (read: his guilt, which is another indication of his dissatisfaction with his current path), and his family (read: a reminder that his path is not the only one he could take), he orders them to ‘blow that piece of junk out of the sky.’ When he sees Luke he orders ‘every gun [they] have to fire on that man.’ These are acts by someone who’s lashing out. These are acts by someone who is way past rationality— except, again, Ben never was rational where the FO are concerned. Ben is so consumed with his revenge on Luke that he literally just has the FO sit there as he confronts him, thereby allowing the entire Resistance, i.e. the FO’s only major opposition, to escape. 

As you say, Ben’s role in the FO pre-regicide (Snokicide?) were very ancillary. He wasn’t involved in the day-to-day of the FO; that was Hux. In fact he was something of a shadow figure to the rest of the FO. He didn’t have an actual military rank within the FO. He was Snoke’s right hand, his personal attack dog and goon. He didn’t act in accordance to the FO. He did whatever Snoke wanted, and what Snoke wanted wasn’t even what the FO wanted: what Snoke wanted was to kill Luke Skywalker. And who is Snoke, to Ben? An abusive creep who has groomed Ben since childhood and inserted himself as a pseudo-father figure in Ben’s life. A person Ben went to after his uncle tried to kill him— after he felt he had nowhere else to go. Ben didn’t even join the FO in the first place because he believed in what they were doing, and he’s made several oblique admissions (’It’s too late’/’You’re a monster’ ‘Yes I am’) that he hates himself for becoming what he’s become. 

Even on the bridge with his father, Ben tries to psychologically defend himself not by defending the FO, but by defending Snoke: ‘the Supreme Leader is wise’. Ben is a complexly layered character, and he seems to operate on several layers of varying cognitive dissonance in order to even function without breaking down (which would happen if he faced the truth of what he’s doing and why). Ben does say things, in the TFA novelization and sort of in the movie (when he tells LST that LST will now ‘give [the map] to the First Order]’, but it’s important to remember the layered psychology thing going on. Ben says lots of things that he wants to believe, which he may also think he believes, except his deepest actions betray the fact that he doesn’t. He kowtows to the FO message superficially, in order to justify what he’s doing— because otherwise, if he let himself actually face himself, the guilt and self-loathing and helplessness would crush him. That is always the trap of the Dark Side and what keeps people there, what keeps them from turning back and getting help.

And this is what drives me up the wall with a lot of fandom analyses and fic. Not even Ben actually believes what Ben is doing. Every single one of his actions —his unfiltered, spontaneous actions, not the ones he’s carefully grooming beneath his Kylo Ren persona— contradict this. He hates Luke because he blames Luke for what he’s become. And he hates what he’s become. He hates what he’s become because he knows that it’s wrong, because he still does have a conscience, and he’s spent all his time praying to Vader to take it away. He feels like he has no control over his own life —always manipulated by someone, always torn apart with no emotional equilibrium— and so, in Darksider fashion, he believes that if he can bring the universe to heel then he can also bring his own conflict to heel. It is not a legitimate political position, it never was, and TLJ does not try to present it as such. Which why Ben ends TLJ not triumphant, but on his knees. 

[padawanlost]

"The Jedi were keepers of the peace, not legal enforcers. That was the Senate’s job." - The Senate's "job"? Lol, that's a good one. If anything the Senate or what they called that failed at its supposed job even harder than the Jedi. Upstanding exceptions like Bail Organa or Mon Mothma aside, a majority of the so-called Senate was useless in actually solving true problems of the Republic. Palpatine's words about the Senate in TPM were true, evil Sith Lord or not, he was right on that one.

Yes, the Jedi claiming they can’t do anythingagainst slavery (a weapon of the Sith) is convenient cop-out, consideringslavery was a crime and they were part of the Judicial department. Anotherobvious example of this was when the Jedi were ask to help with the security ofthe galactic games (something akin to the Olympics).

All he and his Masterhad to do was patrol the Galactic Games, keeping alert for any signs oftrouble. The Galactic Games were held every sevenyears, and planets all over the galaxy competed to become the host planet. TheGames were exciting and sometimes dangerous, with the fastest and most skilledcompeting in races and contests. Anakin couldn't wait to see the variousevents. [...]The government of Euceron hadasked for Jedi help in order to keep the peace. [Jude Watson. DangerousGames]

The government of Euceron (the hosting planet)had political ambitions so they requested the Jedi to avoid any unwelcomedincident their local law enforcement couldn’t predict. During the games Anakinruns two brothers who had their sister (Djulla) sold into slavery (the little girl from the cute family from TPM whose father blows up during the race sequence):

"Afterour father died, we had no money, so our uncle sold our sister into slavery.Djulla's master is now Sebulba. We have to get her out of his clutches! We betour Podracer that we'd win. Sebulba bet Djulla's freedom. This time, though,he's not racing. His son Hekula is."

Anakin wanted to help her free their sister (achild!) from slavery. But Obi-wan found and did this:

He drew Anakin aside. "You know this is wrong," he toldhis Padawan with a frown. "I'm sure you are helping for the right reasons.But this is not our mission. We havemore important things to do. And may I remind you that Podracing isillegal?" [Jude Watson. Dangerous Games]

Podracing is wrong because it’s illegalbut I guess slavery, the tool of the Sith, is fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

But before anyone throw stonesat Obi-wan or the Jedi it’s important to erase this idea that citizens likeBail, Padmé or Mon Montha cared about this issue at all. They weren’t evil butthey were not the champions of the masses either. That’s a misconception. TheRepublic wasn’t created to help everyone, it was created to protect the interestsof its members. Senators like Padmé and Bail were there to defend the interestsof their planets, not their own personal agendas. Padmé was a champion of democracybecause that was Naboo’s agenda. Same for everyone else. No one was there tomake sure the disfranchised were care of. Helping *everyone* was a welcomed result (in theory) but that’s not their main goal. That’s why the Separatist Movementexisted.  The Republic doesn’t workbecause it wasn’t built to work, so everyone there, everyone who supports andprofits from that broken system is part of the problem and that includes theJedi Order and upstanding citizens such as Padmé Amidala and Bail Organa. Don’tget me wrong, they are good people but they are not above reproach.

Now, back to the Jedi Order. Unlike the characters above, they were legally (and morally, by theirown admission) bound to protect innocents lives.

[The Jedi Code] is the philosophy upn which standsthe Jedi Order. It is a pledge of protection to the citizens and inhabitants ofthe Republic. [The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force by Daniel Wallace]

Unfortunately,this got lost along the way and the interests of the Senate and its members overrodethe needs of the citizens and inhabitants of the Republic.