#like idk when ‘my’ parents are ethnic and ‘yours’ are white racists it’s so weird to spin that for an edit | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

aajjks · 2 years ago

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baby i’m 17 and indian and muslim as well. don’t worry bby! i don’t claim being indian because to me (even though both my parents are indian - my dad was born and raised in india and my mum was born in england and i’ve lived in england and things happen and my dad isn’t my life and i just refuse to accept being indian as me) idk if that makes sense. i feel like people use words like ‘I am so and so…’ to make themselves feel better but you’re not, your parents are. People use ethnicity as a badge of pride because you’re exotic or whatever compared to ‘white people’ (that’s non-derogatory on my side) and it makes saying things like ‘I’m Indian sound terrible because why should ethnicity matter? In my experience (not trying to be rude), Indian people have no sense of boundary and are just very intrusive. They gossip way too much (especially the fact they are Muslims) and it kinda infuriates me. My Mum had an argument with my sister and she started talking about what happened to another one of their sisters (she has five) and was going about how she would have a talk with her about it but like?? u did not have to bring the second auntie into it, you could’ve just called the first auntie straight away. am i being weird? i apologise. Indians also tend to be very desperate (the ones who live in India). Like especially in comment sections, they’re the ones who put random emojis rather than actual comments under posts and it’s like as a writer, you want people to reblogged to interact rather than comment and they just don’t do rhat. they just want to be the first at everything. first to comment, first to say i loved bts first. (my judgement may be skewed but so be it)

I’m not trying to be controversial but I also hate it when black people bring up the old whipping jokes and act like they’re the ones who are currently getting whipped if you get me. like when they say my people were slaves, and it’s the same people who get offended if you class people by colour like isn’t that what you’re doing when you say MY people. also, some of you have got to stop living in the past, i don’t understand everyone’s obsession with talking about the past that has nothing to do with them. like were you a slave? i doubt it. it’s real life not a joke. stop treating it like it’s just a funny story to pass off to your peers or anyone that will listen.

i also don’t agree with the n word. i’m sorry - the fact people tried gatekeeping it especially when niga means ‘we’ i believe in korean is ridiculous. i don’t get why black people get to call other black people such a bad word. if it’s such a bad word, no one should be able to say it. end of. black people can be racist to black people and what then? you going to let that run because they’re black. if a black person said it to another in a menacing way, no one would bat their eyes, but if a white person were to say it (even if it’s the supposed friendly way - let’s say they ARE black but just not physically. people would be like ‘oh my god, cancelled!’

like how does that even work. everything is always about intentions.

It’s not even about colour cus my complexion is very light, so people assume of me as white or European, I don’t know anything about Indians tbh cuz I have no connection to india or Indian Muslims.

And as for black people, I have absolutely no right to say anything, they have been very nice people to me, I really respect them!!!

I have to say that I am very little educated on races. So I try to not discuss races, not even mine haha cus you never know what you might say that could be considered offensive!

#asks

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normal-thoughts-official · 4 years ago

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Fandom racism anon here and yeah absolutely (I didn't realise I had anon on lol)

Because while LOTR has problems within its themes (ie the orcs can be seen as to be coded as people of colour, especially since they ride elephants) the explicit message of the book is evil bad

Because the only people who work for sauron are evil. There are no morally grey people, they aren't misguided or tricked they just are evil and want to take over the world

And yeah I totally agree that this is more of a literal take on like empirical war (is that the word) and that makes total sense considering Tolkiens history

Whereas I would say that the allegories in shaowhunters is way more based on racial conflict within a country itself especially slavery, I can't remember if this is show Canon but is it that they have the warlock tropheys? I remember that in the books magnus talks about shadowhunters hanging warlock marks on their walls? (sorry to bring the books up)

Idk it's very hollow to me, unlike with LOTR though it's a different allegory it's totally irritating to show many of these supremecists as morally misled. LOTR says bad guys are bad guys, shadowhunters says well yeah they did follow a guy which thinks that downworlders are subhuman and should be eradicated but they just made a mistake

I want to compare this to tfatws which while it isn't really fantasy I just feel like it shows how the priorities of the writer can impact the message of the show so powerfully (I know u aren't up to date so I'm gonna be pretty vague)

There's a scene in tfatws where the new white perfect captain America does something bad and doesn't pay for the consequences - done to comment on white privelege and how America condones white supremacy and how Sam is in comparison to that

Mayrse and Robert revealed to be part of the circle! And paid no consequences Shock horror my parents were the bad guys (even rho they were either implicitly or explicitly extremely racist the entire time) also I haven't finished the seires but do the lightwoods ever try to get their parents to face the consequences?)

Only one actual really critiques the situation and the reality behind it whereas the other one is just to centre the white characters once again and present them in a further sympathetic light

AND ANOTHER THING! I was mostly talking about show Canon here and I'm sorry to bring up the books but I literally can't believe I hadn't picked up in this before.

So like downworlders = people of colour, Simon is a vampire so is coded as a person of colour. However in the books in the last one he stops being a vampire and becomes a shadowhunters instead, coincidentally that's also when he starts dating Izzy HOW IS THIS ABLE TO HAPPEN!!????

I mean I know cassandra clare is lazy right? The original seires is by far the worst of all her writings but come ON!!!!! By the allegory has he become the white man!????? These books made no fuckin sense when I read them at 15 and they make no sense now I'm digressing anyways

I don't know man I wrote this ask because I was trying to find some fantasy book recommendations on booktube and SO MANY of them were about slavery or general ly extrême préjudice with à White protagonist to save this 'poor souls'.

Also I was watching guardians of the galexy the other day and realised nearly every movie set in space is just bigger stakes imperialism - planets instead of countries. Literally star wars, star trek, guardians of the galexy 2, avengers infinity war - all are facing genocidal imperialistic villains without actually paying much, if any attention to those effected

Just writing this ask made me exhausted I'm so tired of lazy writing and exploiting other people's struggle. I'm white and I'm trying to be more critical about the movies, shows and books I watch and read but let me know if I said something off here❤️❤️ you gotta get up to date with tfatws man, Sambucky nation is THRIVING!!!!

i'm not sure i agree that the whole "the evil people are evil" thing is a good thing, because i feel like more often than not making the bad characters just like... unidimensionally evil just means that the reader will be like "lol i could NEVER be that guy" and when it comes to racism that is a dangerous road to take because white people already believe that racism is something that Only The Most Evil People, Ergo, Not Me, Can Do, which makes discussions of stuff like subconscious racial bias and active antiracist work become more difficult because people don't believe they CAN be racist unless they're like, Lord Voldemort

which is not to say that racism should be treated as morally ambiguous, just that the workings of racism should be represented as something that is not done only by the Most Hardcore And Evil, but rather as a part of a system of oppression that affects the way everyone sees the world and interacts with it and lives in it

yes the warlock trophies are mentioned in the show, albeit very quickly (there is a circle member who tells magnus that his cat eyes will make "a nice addition to his collection" and then it's never mentioned again because this is sh and we love using racism for shock value but then not actually treating it as a serious plot point or something that affects oppressed ppl). and you are absolutely right, shadowhunters (and hp, and most fantasy books) has genocide as its core conflict and treats it, like you said, in a very hollow way, treating racism as both not a big deal and not something that is part of a system of oppression, but really the actions of a few Very Bad People. it's almost impressive how they manage to do both at the same time tbh

i think you hit the nail right on the head with this comment, actually. for most of these works, racism is SHOCK VALUE. it's just like "lol isn't it bad that this bad guy wants to kill a gazillion people just because they are muggles? now that is fucked up" but it's not actually an issue. in fact, when this guy is defeated, the whole problem is over! racism is not something that is embedded into that world, it's not a systemic issue, it's not even actually part of what drives the plot. the things that led to this person not only existing but rising to power and gathering enough followers to be a real threat to the whole world are never mentioned. it's like racists are born out of thin air, which is dangerously close to implying that racism is just a natural part of life, tbh

anyway my point is, it is never supposed to be questioned, it is never part of a deeper plot or story, its implications are barely addressed except for a few fleeting comments them and there; so, it's not a critique, it's shock value, even though it is frequently disguised as a critique (which is always empty and shallow anyway. like what is the REAL critique in works like hp or sh/tsc other than "genocide is bad"? wow such a groundbreaking take evelyn)

about simon and the book thing: i actually knew about this and the weird thing about this is that, like... simon is jewish, and he's implied to be ashkenazi (calls his grandma bubbe which is yiddish, which is a language spoken by the ashkenazi ppl), and it seems like cc is always toeing the line between him being accepted by shadowhunters and then not accepted by them, which sounds a lot like antisemitic tropes and history of swinging between (ashkenazi) jewish ppl being seen as the model minority myth and thus used as an example by white christians, and being hated and persecuted. i'm not super qualified to talk about this since i'm not jewish and i'm still learning about/unlearning antisemitism and its tropes, and i don't really have a fully formed thought on that, tbh; it just reminds me of the whole "model minority" swinging, where one second simon is part of the majority, the other he's not, but always he is supposed to give up a part of himself and his identity in other to be "assimilated" by shadowhunter culture. this article (link) covers a book on jewish people and assimilationism into USan culture, this article (link) covers british jews' relationship with being considered an ethnic group, and this article (link) talks a bit about the model minority myth from the perspective of an asian jewish woman

it just really calls to my attention that cc chose to make her ashkenazi jewish character start off as a downworlder and then become a shadowhunter. i don't think she made that decision as a conscious nod to this history, because it would require being informed on antisemitism lol but it's incredible how you can always see bigoted stereotypes shining through her narrative choices completely by accident. it just really shows how ingrained it is in our collective minds and culture

and anyway, making a character go from the oppressed group to just suddenly become the oppressor is just. wtf. not how oppression works, but most of all, really disrespectful, especially because she clearly treats it as an "upgrade"/"glowup" that earns him the Love Of His Life

also, out of curiosity, are you french? it seems like your autocorrect changed a few words and i'm pretty sure extrême and préjudice are the french versions of these words, and since u said ur white, that's where my money would be lol

#anti cc #anti tsc #anti tmi #anti sh #racism tw #antisemitism tw #reference #ask #residenthottiesamwilson

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waraupiero · 7 years ago

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under the cut because there’s some culturally sensitive stuff in here

mmm, there’s someone whom i’m in a mutual discord server with, and she’s of chinese and korean descent. it’s well-known in the discord that i’m ethnically chinese but my cultural background is rather culturally japanese, and i do like japanese culture

she dm’d me and was like, ‘is it bad that i drag weaboos?’ and i was like ??? ‘cringe culture is not great but like, we all self-drag anyway lmao so idk’ and she goes on this entire talk about how she can’t think of japanese culture as something worth ‘worshipping’ and how she can’t ever appreciate japanese culture because she’s salty about japanese treatment of chinese and korean people in the 20th century

and at this point i’m like? kind of weirded out lmao because i think it’s kind of unfair? i’m in no way defensive about japanese history, especially for this time period, because my family is ethnically chinese. both my parents are chinese and my grandparents lived through this time period in history. also i’m a historian, and i don’t fuck around with erasure lmao

but at the same time i do have a japanese background. ish. my parents lived in hiroshima for a decade, and at home we’ve always eaten japanese food, listened to japanese music, watched japanese films/tv shows/anime, read japanese stories, were raised with really japanese manners ... the sports teams we support are even the local sports teams of hiroshima ... GO CARP

(though my relationship with my ‘japanese-ness’ is very complicated, because my parents never taught us to refer to ourselves as japanese -- we were americans, and my parents also never taught us japanese, i learnt it by myself at age 10 -- though my father confesses that he is confused about whether he’s really american, chinese, or japanese. my mom feels firmly chinese and my brother american. only my dad and i are confused lmao)

ok, so i explain to her reasons why i think westerners like japanese culture. but in turn she gets really defensive about chinese culture? and i’m like, ‘it’s not like i’m saying that chinese culture doesn’t also have these traits, but people think of these traits in relation to japan more than with china, i think, for the most part’. it’s not as if i’m not familiar with chinese culture either lmfao my name may be japanese but it's a reference to a chinese poem, and i lived in china for 6 long and terrible years

and she says she doesn’t understand why people can like japan and guesses that she just doesn’t like it because she’s biased (true). she says that she doesn’t like that her grandma is too embarrassed to even speak about wwii. which then kind of baffles me because i was never the kind of person to derive my own opinions from my grandparents. maybe i’m a bad descendant but i never blindly believe what my elders believe. lmao my father’s mother hates japan with a burning passion and thinks mao ze dong is the greatest man on earth. obviously i don’t subscribe to that kind of stuff

at this point i’m telling her that i can understand where she’s coming from. a lot of young people i know are really caught up in a lot of emotion when it comes to their historical background. i’ve never been nationalistic or emotionally connected to any country, so i can’t say i empathise. i do tell her that i think all cultures are beautiful and worth understanding and appreciating, but it is important to keep historical context in mind because one should never see a country or culture as ‘faultless’ (which is why i hate yellow fever and people idolising asian culture in the first place. you can admire and appreciate but you should also be aware and critical). yet at the same time it’s not fair to hold this one historical event against an entire culture

but all she does is tell me how much she dislikes japan and thinks they’re despicable. she’s upset that in american schools they don’t teach about this stuff. lmao as a history professional i am fucking aware and i say that it really is unfortunate but nations use the history as a nationalistic, propagandistic tool. also, teachers only have one year to teach SO MUCH HISTORY. they’re going to cut off what is ‘irrelevant’ to most americans

though, on the other hand, chinese national curriculum on the sino-japanese war is very, very much problematic. not to say that china’s grievances aren’t legitimate or valid, but the chinese government has been mining this historical event for years for nationalism by consistently portraying chinese people as a righteous people but always victim. taking on the role of a victim is a very quick way for a country to rouse nationalism. when i went to school in china, in 2003-2010, my textbooks on CHINESE LANGUAGE (not history!!!) included phrases like ‘日本鬼子’ (japan demons), which is the chinese phrase for ‘jap’. i was in primary and secondary school. i wasn’t even a fucking teenager yet. they were already brainwashing kids by this age (all textbooks are government-written and issued). we didn’t cover this in school because there were chinese-japanese kids in my school, but they could have easily read it. thinking back, i’m terrified by this

while i think it’s necessary to know your history, i don’t think history should be so sensationalised and so emotional. history is ... in many ways like a science. it requires objectivity and perspective. i also see it necessary to consider all sides of a historical event. i have read terrible things when i was in university. i have read mein kampf and i absolutely hated it, but i am glad i read it, because it was an invaluable resource and perspective. i think it’s cowardly to not want to understand someone or something just because you see one another as enemies or whatever. maybe that makes me insensitive, but i see that as my advantage

i think that in a way hypernationalism is contributing to this continued tension in east asia. japan is unwilling to apologise to china and korea (which is wrong ... @ abe shinzo bitch apologise!!), and as a result china and korea continue to mine the emotional trauma of this time, and continue to bewail and accuse japan as monsters while acting rudely towards japanese people in public ... and as a result japanese people think chinese and korean people are rude and ignorant, and their preexisting racist attitudes towards chinese and korean people are confirmed ... all sides are justified and valid in what they’re thinking but i think an unwillingness to move on is causing this cycle. and i don’t know if there’s a good way to break it

but the fact that?? there’s a younger generation who is also so vitriolic about this?? really disturbs me. how is this not also similar to young american conservatives who believe everything their grandparents say about guns, race in america, and whatever? (you could argue that white americans are not victimised and i would wholeheartedly fucking agree with you there, but the issue is that THEY believe that THEY ARE victimised because they don’t know their history, fools) how could you be so narrow-minded and reject an entire culture just because you’re angry about? history?

while history is not all past and gone, sometimes the memory aspect of history really disturbs me as a historian. it’s hard to grasp and understand, because all those emotions are valid, but at the same time they can be destructive forces in the recounting of history and engage in counterproductive ways with the present. maybe i feel this way because i don’t like emotions and i don’t have any. i’m not sure.

this was a really strange conversation to have. i don’t know why she wanted to talk to me about it, because she clearly wasn’t trying to make me feel bad about ?? my japanese background and liking stuff like anime and whatnot?? and i’m really, really ashamed for japan for what they did, but as a historian i have no emotion towards it besides an objective judgment that it was bad, and as someone with chinese and american background i don’t hold anything against japan either, despite what they did to both these countries.

i guess i’m just really disappointed that people just can’t move past things like this. even though i’m a historian and i deal with the past, i feel like it’s counterproductive and foolish to let the past stop you from enjoying something or experiencing something. her emotions were valid i’m sure and she probably couldn’t control it, but this conversation just frustrated me so much. i believe that the world is made better through mutual understanding, awareness, and a level of appreciation. if you spend your entire life hating everything about a certain country or culture, that’s really miserable and cannot enrich yourself.

furthermore, our conversation devolved into another tangent about how not enough stuff about ‘non western’ stuff is taught in america. which i agree, is true. as a multicultural state america should do this. but she talked about how we should teach LESS about certain figures in western history, and i disagreed so much. god, just because you think there are important events in asian history doesn’t diminish the importance of western history to a WESTERN COUNTRY. all history is important and worthy!! even though i don’t like it either there’s a reason why we spend so much time on the french revolution and less on, say, the opium wars! christ!

i don’t blame her at all, but i needed to put this somewhere because this conversation pissed me off on so many levels. it was too black and white when history and historical education is decidedly not. i’m just frustrated that people can’t move on, and try to argue with me about it when i clearly don’t want to argue. i just want to offer an explanation or historian’s standpoint. why is it so hard for people to understand? and am i weird for not feeling anything? who knows.

#ren.txt #i just need to rant somewhere because i'm baffled but also confused #i don't know where this person is trying to get

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driftwooddragons · 7 years ago

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Re: that post you reblogged about racism in Europe: Coming from Europe I have been taught my whole life that the definition of racism is ‘treating people as if different races are a thing and theirs is inferior’. And in most of Europe, last time the word ‘race’ was considered acceptable it was used by the Nazis in the biological sense, and people who look very white like the Polish, Sami etc. were seen as inferior races. I’m not trying to pick a fight or excuse racism in any form here, 1/2

I guess I just don’t understand how treating people as if they’re a different RACE is not racism, or why it’s seen as a problem that it can ALSO include white people. (Also I’m not from an English-speaking country, so maybe this is an Anglophone-non-Anglophone cultural way of seeing things, IDK.) Anyway I love your blog, hope you’re having a nice day! 2/2

(Your last anon here again) I realized my last asks maybe came across as racism-apologist, and I’m sorry! I’m just trying to understand, because having always been told that anyone can be racist to anyone else who is not part of their ethnic group, it’s very confusing and a little disturbing to encounter this idea that you can’t be racist to white people. It feels like it’s making light of the struggles some people here have faced and still face, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth… IDK

________________________

Yeah, so I don’t think I’m qualified to speak to this either.

But let’s think through it together - but if someone more qualified comes along, then we’ll listen to them instead of my ramblings….

I think what it comes down to is different cultures/languages have different definitions of racism.

So, for instance, in my mind, you can’t be racist against white people because they’re the dominate/oppressive group. Now, this isn’t to say that white people never experience being a hated group - but that hatred would be called xenophobia or prejudice.

Like, racism packs with it an idea of superiority/inferiority and systematic oppression.

Of course, this then gets into the problem of culture… like, Hitler DID see Slavic people as inferior to those of German and Scandinavian decent… and he attempted to oppress them because of that. That’s racism - because he did see them as a different race. So… how does that work? Is it only racism if your beliefs are THAT extreme?

I guess the real question is are MODERN prejudices against white people of certain nationalities called racism or are they called xenophobia? I think that’s the argument that the post I reblogged was making - that maybe it was racism in the past (when people not only believed race was a thing, but also had really extreme ideas about what the “races” were), but these days it’s not racism - it’s just cultural xenophobia.

Like, does a random British person look down on the Greeks because they think they’re a separate race of people who are inherently/genetically inferior… or is it because Greek culture is foreign to British culture and they don’t understand it, so they dislike the people?

I think the argument is that it’s the latter… so, modern “racism against white people” in Europe is actually xenophobia. Whereas, historically, Hitler WAS a huge racist, because he saw everyone who wasn’t “aryan” as an inferior race.

So, it’s exactly as you say - people who think race is a thing and act to oppress are racists, people who just dislike others because they are different are xenophobic.

THEN we get into systematic racism…. where modern culture/society is still recovering from many many years of extreme racism towards people of colour… And as a result, our culture/society (whether you’re in north america or europe) is STILL really racist towards people of colour. So, the society itself, the way it’s set up, the way it subconsciously educates us, is very dependent on skin colour…

And I think this is where you don’t want to use the same word for the prejudice that a white Polish person in Britain might encounter to the systematic racism that… let’s say a dark-skinned Algerian in Paris might encounter. The racism in America/Canada can be seen WAY more starkly in living conditions of various minorities… and I can’t speak to what it’s like in Europe… but I do know that you have similar problems in the Paris area with housing projects and such. And on that note, this also gets into colonization/decolonization arguments… and yeah, I’m REALLY not able to speak to that.

So, what have my blatherings brought us… that modern day, I think all people know that race isn’t actually a thing, therefore, when they’re hating on particular groups of white people, it’s because they’re xenophobic. HOWEVER, modern day society is built on hundred of years of extreme racism towards people of colour and it’s still reflected in our society and we’re still influenced by it (think about representation in media, children’s books, toys, etc) and as a result, when someone is hating on a person of colour, it’s more than likely either consciously or unconsciously fueled by racism, rather than xenophobia.

For instance, think of that dude saying that Idris Elba was not “English enough” to play Bond, when Bond was played by a Scotsman and Irishman in the past…. what makes Idris less English than an Irish person? Is it because his parents were from Africa? Irdis was born and raised in England. How many generations do you have to live in England before you’re “English enough?” If Idris’ parents were white Polish people, would we be even having this conversation? So, you sort of see the difference in the xenophobic prejudice that someone from Eastern Europe might face and the racist prejudice that anyone non-white might face.

Like, we’re all still racist whether we want to be or not. Because of the legacy of racism, we have to work really hard to NOT be racist. If you’re not consciously not being racist, then you’re probably being racist. The irony is that consciously not being racist makes you feel like a racist, because you want to live in a perfect world where you don’t need to have the thought “am I being racist right now?” But we ALWAYS have to have that thought.

Anyway, my point is, I apologize if I am racist. And I’m not claiming I’m right about any of this… this is me, just trying to work through language and terminology and how it relates to society and cultural differences.

I’m also coming at this from a largely North American perspective - although I have lived in Europe, it was very briefly. I’ve also studied European history A LOT, but that doesn’t tell me that much about what today is like - and today is kind of a cesspit with this weird resurgence of nationalism and xenophobia.

(Though, that does remind me that when I went to an anti-nazi rally in Germany when I lived there, they did use the German word for xenophobia rather than racism, when they described the nazi’s beliefs…. not sure if that matters. It was over 10 years ago now.)

#long post #Anonymous

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anonymoustalks · 4 years ago

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idk if lenins polcy of bruning churches was good but you have to have soem kind of athiest government

(6-20-20) You both like politics.

You: hi

Stranger: hi

Stranger: ideology?

You: moderate left

You: you?

Stranger: far left

Stranger: uk

You: ahh kay

You: why do you like omegle?

Stranger: er dunno just fun to chat without consequences i guess

You: mhm that's fair

You: I like to hear about what other ppl think

Stranger: yh and argueing

You: haha I don't really argue that much

Stranger: some people arnt worth ur time

You: mhm maybe

You: where are you from?

Stranger: uk^^

You: I'm from the us

Stranger: noice

You: and I'm totally ignorant of british politics lol

Stranger: i know a little bit about america

You: how does your government work?

Stranger: cos its the centre of the world

You: sorry if this is a really dull question

Stranger: its fine ill asnwer w my limited understanding

You: I just ran into someone who was praising the monarchy

Stranger: pfft

Stranger: haha

Stranger: so basically above everyone we have a queen who approves certain stuff and has the ability to interjec tin products but msotly doesn then you have the unlected house of lords which is aristocrats recommended by other rich ppl and below that the ppl elected

Stranger: we have a prime minister so he doesnt have the same powers as president

Stranger: but hes more powerful than other pm's

You: mhm

You: the house of lords...

Stranger: yep

You: is the aristocracy still a big thing in the uk?

Stranger: its just like the senate in the usa except not elected and idk probaably

You: how does someone get recommended to the house of lords?

Stranger: be rich adn good at something or know someone whos rich

You: ahh I think it's weird that it's so closely tied to wealth

Stranger: not really the uk ruling class make it prtty obvious to us peasnts that its a ruling class fake democracy

Stranger: unlike the usa where everybody is supposed classless

You: right

You: I guess that's a fair statement

Stranger: but yeah fuck the queen

Stranger: how was the guy defedning monarchy?

You: oh he sounded kind of weird

You: like how god and the monarchy is essential for uk's stability and being

Stranger: pfft

You: he didn't really explain much

Stranger: both are irelevant nowadays

You: just pointed out that france and us are chaotic, according to him because there is no monarchy

Stranger: oh yeah thats totally

Stranger: why

You: yeah lol

Stranger: if only they had a monarchy then there owuld be no class and racial conflict

You: so how far left are you?

Stranger: very far

You: anarchist?

Stranger: nope left communist

Stranger: basically anti stalinist communist

You: what does your ideal government look like?

Stranger: well until you have a relatively stateless socialism you have a dictatorship of the proleterait

Stranger: and that has an armed population as the army and has direct democracy and a representive democracy who are payed wages simualr to that of a workmans

Stranger: in brief

You: mhm and membership has a criteria that you must be working class?

Stranger: membership of the democratic process yep

Stranger: a worker

You: mhm

Stranger: not necearily poor

You: what is the exact definition of working class btw?

Stranger: sombody who doesnt own and live off capitlist property

Stranger: or is a cpatilsit in other respects

Stranger: like an investor

Stranger: businessmen landlords and bankers

You: hmm I feel like it's hard for me to draw parallels

You: I know a pharmacist friend

You: who rents his place

You: for extra cash

Stranger: well when we have the revolution i doubt he'll be locked up or anything but youknow

Stranger: hes just a small landlord i guess

Stranger: supplemetning work income

You: so would people just discouraged from doing that kind of stuff?

Stranger: well hosuing will be nationalised as an early step

Stranger: so you wont have to

You: mhm

Stranger: making rent equal to bills

You: my parents also have investments

You: for like retirement

You: and just in general

Stranger: sure

You: was curious what would happen to those

Stranger: well i mean by investor sombody who is rich and does it for a job

You: ah kay

Stranger: the socialsit pension ting will be good anyhow

You: mhm

You: do you think that's it necessary for the world to follow this model? Or do you think that it can still work with just a communist state on it's own?

Stranger: nah for a lot of reasons you cant have it in one or a few states surrounded by cpaitlsit ones

Stranger: for one a DOTP surrounded by cpatilist states is forced to act like one to compete

Stranger: and therefore exploit other countries and its own labourers to the max

You: right, I was curious about that actually

Stranger: that was trotsky's argument

You: mhm

Stranger: he said u cant have 'socialsism in one country' because you have to first have international DOTP

You: dotp stands for?

Stranger: or you just become a state cpaitlist state like stalin

You: dictatorship of the prol.?

Stranger: dictatorship of the proletariat

Stranger: yep

You: mhm, that makes a lot of sense

Stranger: yep

Stranger: DOTP being when workers hold the state but not the economy

Stranger: the economy is still in private hands

You: right

You: I think I mix up all the varieties of socialism and communism

Stranger: yh DOTP isnt so much a variety but a transition

Stranger: from cpaitlism to socialism/com

You: mhm

You: I feel like I think about human nature cynically

Stranger: oh go on

You: as in, I'm skeptical of being satisfied with equality

You: *ppl being

Stranger: well tehy certainly arnt satified by inequality so how bad can it really get?

You: mhm true

Stranger: we dont mean absolute equality

Stranger: just equality of opporutunity to realise ur best self

You: idk if this is school bias or anything, but when we learn about communism, it's often framed that the party just ends up with all the wealth

You: or power

Stranger: theres a reason that idea of so called communism is taught rlly

Stranger: mainly cos of porpaganda but theres some truth

Stranger: under lenin the state was definitely a semi deictatorship of a few workers parties

Stranger: but with a democratic mechanism and worker councils to elect them

You: hm

You: *mhm

Stranger: with the intention of educating a largely illitarate peasant russia into a democratic socialsit society

Stranger: but after the vicotry of stalin after lenins death, whatever redistribution of power was dropped and centrlasing power in the party and in stalin was the priority

You: right

Stranger: so there is a history to it

You: I feel like I was thought that there was a component of ideological purity -- like, if you expressed greater loyalty to the party, you could get more stuff

You: like better food tickets or cars or stuff

You: *taught

Stranger: sure teh soviet union during and after stalin was definitely a class society

You: mhm, how do you avoid class from rearising?

Stranger: you dont centralise power in bureacracy

Stranger: and make it mroe acoutnable

Stranger: you arm the popualtion

Stranger: make durable directly democratic mechanisms

Stranger: accountability at all level

You: so you're saying like enshrining freedom of speech / freedom of arms in the system?

Stranger: im not a freedom of speech absolutist but sure

Stranger: its very important

You: wasn't China kinda of freedom of speech until tianmensquare, were they?

Stranger: ha no

Stranger: you got tortured if you spoke out

You: ah kay

Stranger: same as soviet union really

Stranger: mao wasnt masively different

You: I'm just thinking of the blm protests in the US

Stranger: yh

You: when ppl feel like change isn't happening

You: then they can get violent

Stranger: yep

You: was just curious how your government would handle that

Stranger: well the governmetn and the people are intrinsically merged

Stranger: but it depends like waht the situation would be

You: mhm I mean technically there's universal suffrage in the US but not everyone votes

Stranger: yep

Stranger: electoral college too

You: and I think minority parties can sometimes be the loudest and most opinionated

Stranger: yh

You: so even with a proletariat government I think there might still be disagreement

Stranger: yh

Stranger: for sure

Stranger: and debate

Stranger: whats ur point

You: mhm idk

Stranger: aight sitl idk the answers

You: yeah it's interesting

Stranger: what are u taught abotu socialism in schools

You: mhm, I guess just the things I said?

You: I think we studied east germany and the ussr

Stranger: ah k

Stranger: yep

You: what life was like

You: to live there

Stranger: sure and if you trying and feed everyone this is waht happens type shite

Stranger: you cant be nice with the economy

You: mhm I don't think my teachers tried to make extremely biased conclusions or anything

You: but the curriculum itself could be biased I think

Stranger: k yeah same

Stranger: yeah fr

Stranger: we dont learn at all about the british empire

You: yup

Stranger: like not once

Stranger: or really any british history beyond knights and castles

You: actually in world history class my teacher commented that I was beginning to sound "anti-american" lol

Stranger: haha good

Stranger: anti american what a word

Stranger: being anti imperialist and anti racist is being anti british too

You: lol

Stranger: tells u what they think about britishness

Stranger: its not culture but power

Stranger: which is a load of bs

You: mhm

Stranger: what did you say to teacher

You: idk I'm not very nationalist

You: I didn't say anything, I'm not really the kind of person to argue

Stranger: neither but i like uk just not enough to block refugees to preserve it

Stranger: like some wacko patriots are

You: mhm

Stranger: they act like the uks not been 15% non white since like 1940

You: mhm

You: what do you think of their opinion that a country should have a right to control their own culture/ethnicities?

Stranger: erm

Stranger: well thats tough

Stranger: i think the ideal of direct dmeocracy and a reactioanry population is contradictory

Stranger: and therefore maybe u need more centralised leadership there

You: I think I heard a scenario of belgium or something wanting to block the construction of mosques in like a historical district or something

You: to preserve their national culture/history

Stranger: yep idk

You: yeah idk either

Stranger: but like how would direct democrayc work in somalia

Stranger: or saudi arabia

Stranger: thats a tough question

Stranger: would men use it to repress women

You: mhm yup

You: or well, there are several states that have a democracy

Stranger: its like india was basically a dicatroship for its first 20 years

You: and they voted to impose state religion

You: state religious laws

You: that kind of thing

Stranger: basically cos it would be a bloodbath

Stranger: of relgion and caste

Stranger: so the governmetn had to go against the people to do whats the long term good

You: I think it's sometimes hard to have foresight about what the "long term good" is though

You: like everybody things they are doing things for long term good

You: *thinks

Stranger: well in indias caste removing caste racism and relgious bigotry was a big thing

Stranger: and many people died due to it

You: mhm

You: I think it's really hard for me to know what is "right"

Stranger: and i think general equality is a good thing impose against a population

Stranger: if they dont want it

Stranger: thats the only way change has ever come

You: mhm although I think indoctrination is always possible

Stranger: eh

You: I mean, this is kind of a hot take, but Western values are indoctrinated

Stranger: yeahthey are

You: similarly speaking you could indoctrinate capitalistic values or communist values

Stranger: some are right some are wrong

Stranger: not succesfully

You: and I think the ppl who grow up with whatever they are indoctrinated with are generally happy

You: and support the views they grow up with

Stranger: yeah true

You: although I think it's sad for whoever gets left out of the system

Stranger: like anti deisicimination laws are passed despite a population

Stranger: for a long term good

You: mhm

You: yeah idk governments are hard haha

Stranger: haha yes

Stranger: thats why were still talking about it

You: mhm

You: I don't really know what to think about ppl who support religious states

You: like indonesia has that problem

Stranger: theyre idiots

You: like they want their state to become religious

Stranger: ik snd prolly will

You: but if I imagine myself in their shoes

You: I think they just want to be closer to their religion

You: which is like a personal value

You: like I'm secular, so things like freedom and equality mean a lot to me

Stranger: truw

You: but I can also imagine a different world were idk god and faith matter a lot to me

You: we have pretty significant freedom of religion battles in the us

Stranger: same]

Stranger: if i didnt grow up in suhc an athiest school and get bullied for it id be hardcore jesus

You: oh your family is religious?

Stranger: yep

You: mhm I was reading about the us lgbt anti-discrimination ruling earlier

Stranger: yeah

You: the religious schools here are worried about being affected

You: like they don't want to hire gay teachers

Stranger: good

You: bc they're a religious school

Stranger: get w the program schools

Stranger: idk if lenins polcy of bruning churches was good but you have to have soem kind of athiest government

You: mhm I think anti-discrimination is good, but I feel like I can understand their resistance of feeling like they can't teach their religion the way they want

Stranger: sure yeah

You: idk most things I don't know what to think lol

Stranger: but think about if they dont get agy teachers

Stranger: anti discimination laws dont work

You: hm?

Stranger: cos u can jsut say u didnt disciminate and taht it

You: ohh no it still matters

You: like imagine you are a religious school

You: and a pastor applies and says they are a gay priest

You: and you don't want to hire them

You: they can sue bc discrimination

Stranger: maybe but its a relgious school why u even applying

You: mhm some ppl kind of want to change christianity I think

You: like there are pastors who are much more sympathetic to lgbt

Stranger: eh still

Stranger: lictus and that

Stranger: levictus

You: yeah idk

You: most of the churches in my area are pro-lgbt

Stranger: pretty sure my preist is closeted

You: aww

Stranger: hes very camp

You: camp ?

Stranger: and went to cambridge

Stranger: femenine

You: ahh

Stranger: yep

You: yeah religion is an odd place in politics for me

You: like it's often at the root of weird stuff

Stranger: oh yeah

Stranger: are u relgious

You: that runs counter to like modern science common sense

You: no

You: well, I'm like 20% spiritual I guess

You: but I'm not religious

Stranger: yep

Stranger: never got the difference

You: between spiritual and religious?

Stranger: yep

You: oh, for me, religious is like adhering to a religion, or denomination, or religious practice

You: spiritual is like vaguely believe in something

You: *belieiving

You: without doing anything about it

You have disconnected.

#omegle #politics #communism #uk #dictatorship of the proletariat #class warfare #education #indoctrination #religion #reigious freedom

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maghrebim · 7 years ago

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i dont talk about it much because its hard for a lot of people to get and its hard to articulate but just.........the weird relationship that arises when you have two parents from entirely different cultures, religions, ethnicities, and one of them is white, and in a prominently white country, and the..gross prejudice that takes root in the relationship between the two of them and between you and them, is just really messed up and borderline traumatizing

my father? he absolutely fucking hated that his kids were jewish and half moroccan. i was told by my paternal grandparents repeatedly growing up that i was “lucky” to have inherited my father’s looks and not my mother. they told me i was an ugly child because of my dark curly hair and i looked much better “now”, at age 14, when i was so stressed out and terrified for my life that my hair got thin and started literally greying and my skin became even paler. just............when half of your family looks down on the other half it results in a really intense and complex sort of self-hatred and shame and i spent a lot of years hiding my heritage because my toxic paternal family convinced me that jews and moroccans were dirty and greedy and barbaric and ugly and it didnt help that i got bullied throughout my entire childhood by white gentile kids on top of it; cruel kids who told me i was lucky to have blue eyes because at least then id have had a shot at tricking the nazis, and they’d laugh.

my mother’s ex-husband and the father of three of my siblings was the one who made my mother stop going to temple when she could, to stop celebrating chanukah, or any other of our holidays for that matter, to stop keeping kosher and to hate that part of herself, because she was 16 and vulnerable when she met him and he was a manipulative fucking racist, antisemitic asshole. and then on to her next relationship with another white antisemitic man, who hated his offspring because he thought SHE had “tainted us”, and now, that my mother is almost 52, she still doesnt celebrate, because now shes living with yet another white man, a german who thinks our culture is ridiculous and who wont let her engage with it either.

i have a complicated relationship to her but when i was younger she’d sometimes confess things to me, casually letting slip the horrible things my stepfather’d said to her that she didnt even register as bad and toxic. years after my grandmother died, she confessed she missed celebrating chanukah. she missed the girls she took bat mitzvah lessons with in the capital. she missed the songs and the fasts and the food. and then she immediately laughed it off, and never mentioned it again, and spent her days trying to forget that she was a jew.

in my earliest memories of her, she had blonde hair, with her dark roots grown out almost past her ears. one time my brother, now dead, told me she only dyed it once, in her entire life, towards the end of her relationship with my father, because it was falling apart and she wanted to fit more in with his family and have them accept her just a little more, and to seem more western, more white. he told me my father took one look at her when she came home from the hairdresser and laughed and asked her who she thought she was fooling; “with that skin and that big nose youre not very convincing.”

ive long since outgrown both of my parents, and i dont keep in touch with them for various reasons, but my childhood and my identity were warped for years and it still fuckin haunts me and its just.......horrible the way that that insidious self-hatred gets installed in you. that internalized prejudice that makes you look at yourself in the mirror and think your nose looks too big or your features too much like the “wrong” parent and you catch yourself thinking “fucking kike” as almost a reflex, and realizing youre still echoing the words the people who were supposed to be your FAMILY said to you. like.. regardless of the abuse ive endured from my family and my father especially, its such a cruel way to raise your children even on its own.

interracial relationships dont work if (the white) half of it hates the other half. fetishizing an ethnicity just makes you disgusting, especially if youre gonna wind up despising and shaming your own children for being part of that ethnicity because your partner is. idk its just fucked up and im having a lot of thoughts about it

#this got long so i put most of it under a readmore lol #antisemitism

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