#like i don't even dislike her and i think there's a way to use her where she's an asset to this division but good god

[ariessunsakura]

Disclaimer: I started writing my response to this in 2017 and found it in my drafts. I know the whole post is quite old at this point and I'm truly not interested in arguing with anyone or continuing any discussion here, but I decided I didn't want some of what I wrote back then to go to waste.

Back when I started writing my response to this, I was 21 and angry at the large swaths of the fandom insulting the intelligence of Sakura fans like myself. I still love Sakura and SS, but I don't have an issue now saying that men like Kishimoto writing dynamics like Sasuke and Sakura's is something that should be...looked into, let's put it that way haha. That being said, what I still find disheartening is seeing Sakura, very much torn down by misogynistic fans in a large, primarily male fanbase, also torn down or criticized for supposedly feminist reasons by people who are often just determined to dislike her for whatever reason or somehow clearly miss important details. Sakura was reckless and made mistakes and did questionable things, as did many other characters who for some reason draw less ire. Lots of double standards.

Just to reiterate something that's already been said many times, Naruto proves that pop culture aimed at boys should have carefully written main female characters. There is the blatant misogyny that's happened in this fandom that anyone can see. Meanwhile, certain specific fans in the Naruto fandom that I may or may not need to specify (lol) have acted like the gatekeepers of social justice discourse in the fandom when really they've often just been hypocritical and selective about the type of issues they apparently care about when it comes to how they manifest in pop culture, or at least in this bananas series. They've often been bystanders or apologists or worse to that blatant misogyny. In light of everything that's been going on in the world, I sincerely think we should be more careful about how we talk about female characters. So when people write supposedly feminist posts but say that Sakura is just the "female main character with her legs always wide open and ready with basically no standards or expectations" despite everything the story has shown us, I kinda hate it and don't think that's good or feminist at all. Back in 2017, I wrote: I'm sick of condescending takes about Sakura and her fans as though there's little about Sakura’s character or the end of her story that could or should possibly resonate positively with girls.

Again, I know the original post is old. I know that Kishimoto's writing deserves to be criticized and that Sakura made mistakes and should've been written more carefully and responsibly, but I still want to say my piece.

It's true that Sakura is insecure early on, but her feelings for Sasuke really have nothing to do with that. She doesn’t know that Sasuke is popular when she starts to like him, so her feelings have nothing to do with wanting validation.

She knows her worth as a ninja and among her loved ones by part 2. A lot of guys are interested in her, including ones she admires and cherishes (Naruto and Lee). She confronts Sasuke fiercely many times, even as a genin. She basically spent part 2 trying to save or fight or stop him, going so far as thinking she should kill him to protect the village. That's hardly looking for his validation.

And that's not even mentioning what we're shown rather than told about her feelings for him, which is a theme for them. It's often the nonverbal way they act with each other more than what they say.

Karin with her chakra sensing can tell Sakura's grief is genuine and that she must've known Sasuke well.

“There is nothing different or special about Sakura’s love.”

Kishimoto gives us Karin, whose love for Sasuke is written as different from Sakura’s. Karin enables some of Sasuke's destructive choices and ultimately gives up on him, while Sakura ultimately doesn't do either of those things. And we can hypothesize all we want about Ino or some other girl being no different from Sakura, but who's to say they'd have had the same chemistry with Sasuke personality-wise or otherwise, or mutual understanding? We see from inner Sakura and in other instances that she has parallel elements of Naruto's personality, so...yeah, enough said lol. And who's to say another girl would've known exactly when Sasuke would leave the village, unlike Naruto? I think these speak for themselves:

One of the themes of SS, asserted in Kakashi's 693 quote, is that it’s about Sasuke accepting love without an overt reason so he can heal. Love in real life isn't always rational, it's about passion and attraction and things that are unspoken and can't always be put into words, which I think is what Kishimoto wants to convey with SS. The emotion for Sakura in Sasuke's eyes is concealed from us each time he thanks her for a reason. Sasuke tries to make a show of not caring about any of Team 7 or having a reason to love Sakura, but is still clearly drawn to her despite himself.

He's proud of her in the middle of all of the chaos and strife. He can't help but react to her.

I think Kishimoto makes contradictions more than once in the series, maybe including with SS. Clearly he's made a point to write things that make Sakura special and unique in some way to Sasuke, but there's also the message that Sasuke should allow love in without rationalizing it.

Another theme for them and for other women in the story is stated by Shikamaru's father: Even the roughest woman is tender to the guy she loves.

"Sasuke has not singled her out. She doesn’t appeal to him or interest him. She doesn’t challenge him in any emotional, mental, or physical way."

I think all of the above indicates otherwise. She does challenge him and changes his behavior, least of all when he has his first taste of intoxicating power.

He says himself that he has to remove himself from her and Naruto's vicinity to accomplish his goals. I think the intensity of the genjutsu he puts her in mirrors the intensity of some of his fights with Naruto as statements of him forcing away his bonds.

Still, Kishimoto makes a point to include this theme that can also apply to Sasuke:

"...she doesn’t know him, she’s doesn’t understand him, she doesn’t even have a basic grasp on the concepts that are necessary for those things."

Not true. She works tirelessly to understand and learn everything she can, and it's just not her fault that she doesn't always know everything. It honestly doesn't matter that she doesn't.

Sakura gets a lot of heat for what she says when Sasuke leaves the village, but shows she clearly understands his pain later on when trying to reason with Sai:

Never mind that Sasuke isn't even angry at her for what she said when he left.

“Sakura was just afforded the opportunity of being the closest girl around and female main character with her legs always wide open and ready with basically no standards or expectations. But I think the worse part, the really bad thing about it, is it supports a Sakura never growing up(...)as the blind quest for Sasuke’s dick goes on forevermore. All the pathetic shit will forever be apart of her as she dusts a house for a husband who comes home twice a year, who has a child who feels neglected, and she is happy with her dysfunctional family because Sasuke-kun’s anything is enough.”

Anyways.

As for her family, Sakura is clearly distressed by Sarada's distress. Kishimoto inventing a task apparently only Sasuke can do leading to him being away from his family is questionable to say the least, but it's hardly the first time in the story that normal or expected standards maybe can't or don't apply. Never mind Kishimoto probably projecting his own sentiments about men's career burnout and sacrifice onto Sasuke and Naruto...lol

Sasuke treasures Sakura, there is no way around it.

I don't think anyone is saying Kishimoto's writing is always the pinnacle of excellence lol, and no one has to like Sakura or SS. But people should at least think a little more about what Sakura has meant to a lot of girls and how the story actually unfolds.

Just a Little Bit on Sakura and Sasusaku

You know what I think about Sakura? This is less about Sasuke and more about herself. See, as person who dislikes Sakura, I actually think that because I’m not biased with fanfiction interpretations that I have a better grasp of Sakura’s character than some people who love her. Sakura, despite her bravado, is not a person of real confidence. She has low self-esteem and very little self-worth. I think that part of the reason she is so hung up on Sasuke is its a sense of validation for herself. She was shy, friendless, unpopular, and overlooked as a child. She liked Sasuke, but even better, to be acknowledged by someone everyone likes, everyone admires, that would make her special. That would make her somebody worthwhile, right? Of course I do believe that Sakura does have feelings for Sasuke, but is she really in love with Sasuke the person, or is it the idea of him? That he doesn’t notice her or pay attention to her only makes this insecurity worse. Sakura is constantly angsting over not doing enough, not fitting in on her team, not belonging or being someone of necessity. As stated (in the only time she ever elaborates on her feelings) she is attracted to Sasuke because he’s attractive, talented, and “cool”. A person who personifies, in essence, everything she believes herself not to be. God, there’s so much to say about this really, but I’ll save it for later. 

It’s part of why Sasusaku is such an out of left field idea to me. Sasusaku shippers portray the ship as the exact same way that leads Sakura’s problematic behavior. They ship it because they love the idea of Sakura being the “special one” who is the exeption to Sasuke’s personality and his greatest weakness and is the “fangirl who’s different from all the other girls”, which is so irritating because she’s not. Sakura is the antithesis of these concepts. There is nothing different or special about Sakura’s love. There is nothing different or special about her as far as relating to Sasuke goes. As I detailed in my previous posts, she doesn’t know him, she’s doesn’t understand him, she doesn’t even have a basic grasp on the concepts that are necessary for those things. Sasuke has not singled her out. She doesn’t appeal to him or interest him. She doesn’t challenge him in any emotional, mental, or physical way. They’re not even close. What does Sasuke even know about Sakura, or understand about her? Sakura, as far as Sasusaku goes, has nothing different or special about their relationship or dynamic that couldn’t be done by any other generic fangirl. Absolutely nothing. Nothing that transpired between them is anything that wouldn’t have happened had any other fangirl been placed on his team. That’s really the only thing Sakura had going for her or that seperates her from, I don’t know, Ino. Do any of you Sasusakus honestly think that if Ino was on his team that he wouldn’t have saved her life? That he wouldn’t have grown to care for her as a teammate? That he wouldn’t have thanked her for caring about him? That he would have left her to die? Or treated her like dirt on the bottom of his shoe? Do you really think that these “Sasusaku proofs of love” aren’t just generic shit that would come with virtually any other teammate, and is actually something unique that would only be there with Sakura?

‘Cause see, that's my whole thing. Can’t say that about Naruto. I can’t say that if Kiba had been his teammate, everything about their relationship would be more or less exactly the same. Or Shikamaru. Or Chouji. Or Neji. 'Cause you see, the manga has shown me this. Its shown me the depth, the reason, the relationship, the uniqueness between the two. In fact, while reading this I bet you were thinking of how different the dynamics would have been between Sasuke and those male characters, because, surprise surprise, there is actually something substantial there that can’t be replicated and receive the same results. Seriously, replace Ino with Sakura and think of what would change in regards to Sasuke. Ino would have cared. Ino would have tried to stop him. Seeing as how there are no substantial moments of bonding or exclusivity between the two, there is nothing that would have happened that Ino couldn’t fill in for. Sasuke waxed lyrical about Naruto and how much he’s always loved him and the ways in which he enriched his life for two straight chapters while Sakura got no mention (except, of course, in the Team 7 picture where he refers to them as such). Sakura was just afforded the opportunity of being the closest girl around and female main character with her legs always wide open and ready with basically no standards or expectations. 

For fucks sake, Sakura literally has nothing to do with Sasuke’s character or story arc. Seriously, delete Sakura from the manga and tell me what about Sasuke’s person or journey as character throughout the story changes. Please. Tell me something that would have affected his plot if some other girl with healing powers were on his team.

I’m just saying, there is nothing inside of Sasusaku. Nothing at all. Kishimoto doesn’t give a fuck about this pairing (lol I don’t know how they got together I don’t want any SS in the pairings movie there wasn’t gonna be any in the Bolt movie either but the SS fans are complaining so I guess I’ll come up with something here have a family pic of Sasuke looking like he’s about to run away as soon as the camera flashes and a Karin lookalike child who feels neglected), and it cannot become more apparent how little actual thought goes into this ship. Its just a vicarious fantasy ship where Sasuke is standard shoujo angsty bad boy bishie and Sakura is “independent, normal girl who’s different from all the rest” which is pretty much the antithesis of these characters. 

But I think the worse part, the really bad thing about it, is it supports a Sakura never growing up. It takes all those things (the potential for self-reflection and learning to be a person who doesn’t need others to feel worth something) and throws it in the garbage as the blind quest for Sasuke’s dick goes on forevermore. All the pathetic shit will forever be apart of her as she dusts a house for a husband who comes home twice a year, who has a child who feels neglected, and she is happy with her dysfunctional family because Sasuke-kun’s anything is enough. I don’t even fucking like Sakura, but that anyone is defending that anything about what her character turned into is satisfactory and good is honestly some disheartening shit. 

[bossuary]

Neve is painless. Rook is real.

Lucanis likes Neve because she represents what he is desperate to regain. He wants to feel normal, to work and cook and focus on the things he used to enjoy (such as they were) before the Ossuary. He wants capital R Romance, right out of a book.

Most importantly, he wants to get rid of Spite. He wants to pretend that he is the man he was...not this abomination.

Without truly knowing her, Lucanis believes Neve is a pathway to all of that. He's attracted to her, and she to him. Their flirting has an edge, but it's also friendly. She dislikes Spite, and her presence makes Spite disappear.

Neve will tell Lucanis that he's still himself, and that Spite doesn't change that. She will never be the one to reconcile Lucanis with Spite, to get them to accept each other. So, yeah, he gravitates to the charming, flirty, warm person who (through no fault of her own, really) feeds his desire to pretend he's not an abomination.

Even early on, I think he's smart enough to know that accepting Spite is his only option, but he...just... can't. With what tools? Nothing in his life has prepared him to deal with this. Rook does that. When denial tears Lucanis apart, Rook puts him back together with acceptance. Rook accepts the reality of Spite, and deals with it head-on every time.

Neve will remind Lucanis that she's not going anywhere. She'll tell him to open his eyes and look at facts, but she (probably) won't be the one to push him out of his own prison. Lucanis knows this, so Spite knows this, and therefore Spite will not look to Neve for help.

It's important for Lucanis to accept that Spite has changed him. But when it's Rook who says it--for whom Lucanis has developed real feelings, not idealized ones--well, it destroys the fantasy Lucanis clings to so vehemently, the one where he isn't this.

For me, the Lucanis/Rook romance feels the way it does NOT because the writers "preferred" that Lucanis and Neve get together, but because Neve is simply easier for Lucanis to accept. She's easier to talk to, unchallenging. Easy isn't bad! Comfort isn't bad! God knows they both deserve some comfort.

Loving Rook is a profoundly complex choice. There's not a lot of cute ways to work that profundity into sexy banter. It makes sense, then, that Lucanis doesn't have as much dialogue for a romanced Rook as he does with Neve. What he can do is cook, make small gestures. He can, heartbreakingly, tell Rook, over and over, that he doesn't have the words to express how he feels. That's such an awful state, knowing that the person you care about needs to hear words you simply cannot locate. As soon as he does have the words, he shares them.

Rook is real. And real is not easy.

To Lucanis, Rook represents a difficult path to recovery, a path he has to keep choosing to follow, every day. At a time in his life where he is incapable of seeing Spite (and his own PTSD ) as anything but a 'distraction' to shove aside, Rook shows genuine interest in helping Lucanis heal. Rook takes consistent action toward that goal, particularly when it's clear that Lucanis doesn't know how.

Lucanis also has to believe that he's worth the effort, his own and his love's. Neve is great, love her, but I don't see this struggling cynic, this chronic worrier, being very helpful in the self-worth department. No, people in a relationship do not have to perform therapeutic roles. But, partners do have to respect each others' boundaries and needs.

Of course Lucanis goes all-in for Neve, romantically, even while he and Rook are dancing around each other. Accepting how much he loves and cares for Rook means looking at himself the way Rook does. That is so much harder than whatever will happen with Neve.

The fact that Lucanis isn't afraid to pursue Neve, even if Treviso is blighted, tells me that Neve is an indulgence for him. Again, that's not a value judgement. If they treat each other with respect, then the merits of the relationship don't have to fall on whether Lucanis 'heals' as a result. Sometimes not hurting all the time is enough.

BUT. Contrast the ease he feels with Neve with his feelings about Rook:

"When I was afraid to want you..."

That is a powerful admission.

What was he afraid of? The annihilation of neglect, worthlessness, and shame. The awful but knowable pillars of his existence.

Wanting Rook means that Lucanis wants to dismantle everything he knows in pursuit of something he doesn't. To love Rook is to love and accept himself, exactly as he is.

Then...then...Lucanis finds real comfort.

[ask-pomni-things]

U-uh- hi-!

I'm Pomni, at least... that's my new name.

Caine said this was for an adventure... it's not as bad as going to literal hell, but it's close.

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The other cast is here if you want to see them too-? including Caine...

Ragatha ♡ — @ask-ragatha-tadc

Another Ragatha I interact with sometimes — @sweetragdoll

Jax — @ask-jax-the-rabbit

...More Jax's, I guess. — @ask-jax-things & @ask-bnuuny-tadc

Zooble — @zooble-the-whatever-i-am

Gangle — @ask-gangle-blog

Kinger — @asksuperlightextras (old account: @askkingerthings )

Queenie — @askthequeen

Caine — @ask-teeth-eyes

Gummigoo ☆ — @ask-gummigoo

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I have some other people I interact with that are cool... for the most part?

Friends — @shortmomma1993 & @hophopscotch

... "grandma", I guess. — @pakodelfandom

My (informally) adopted kid, bucket(and others, I think?) — @bubble-trubble-and-co

((ooc intro & rules under cut))

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Hello~!

welcome to the ask blog I made to feed my hyperfixation on these silly little characters!!

☆ You can call me Oreo, my main blog is @or3oartz ! ☆

I post a lot of tadc fanart, so if you're interested in that, go check me out <3 I also sometimes draw things based on the ask blogs just for the fun of it!

there are other ask blogs not listed here, which you can find on THIS POST!

From this point forward, when I'm making ooc posts/ comments on posts I'll speak like ((this))

I use "he/they" pronouns, if you're referring to me, please use them!!

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Few headcanons to be made clear!!

Pomni is biromantic asexual. But currently identifies as queer, she hasn't figured herself out yet :]

She's not a kid person, the only exceptions are Bucket and Ariah (only relevant to the blog)

Pomni's favourite animals are rabbits. (not connected to Jax./srs )

Pomni doesn't hate anyone, she may strongly dislike people, but in the end she'd still help people. They're all stuck in here together.

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Rules! ♡

Some rules(and boundaries) to be aware of!

No nsfw at ALL! we're a family friendly establishment!!

Absolutely NO bigotry is allowed! (so no racism, sexism, LGBTQ-phobia, etc.)

Ships are allowed! You can mention them! (except pomni may not give your preferred response... so be warned.) The main ship here is JesterDoll, but I also ship funnybunny so little implications may be made/joked about by me. :] Does she like Jax? you'll never know...

Only 1 image/gif per ask! if you're sending art that isn't yours, credit the OG artist/state it's not yours!

DON'T SEND LINKS! Even YouTube links!

don't be overly mean/rude. That's JAX'S job 😒 (/j) (seriously though, there's enough hate right now)

Remember NONE OF THIS IS CANON! I'll reference the canon show, but this blog is NOT affiliated with Glitch Productions or Gooseworx in any way!

Don't dm me. Don't dm this blog, don't dm my other blogs. The only exception is if it's IMPORTANT! (ex. warning me about problematic people) It makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Only send asks related to the blog please. And don't send multiple asks for a conversation, just reblog.

If I don't answer your ask/reblog, please do not go out of your way to get me to answer!

NO MORE HAMSTER POMNI. That got old FAST. 😭

Don't try to date Pomni?? Use character AI or something 💀 Also stop "kidnapping" her.

If misuse your anon privileges, I WILL turn it off. I'm serious.

Failure to follow these rules will get your ask deleted, and possibly blocked. You only get ONE warning.

[loycos]

How do you think Ekko feels about Caitlyn and Vi, separately and as a couple? Reed Shannon (Ekko's VA) stated in a post on how Caitlyn found her humanity and grace through her struggles; plus he resposted(?) a meme of Caitlyn alongside Ekko, Jinx, Vi and Isha from that gangster family meme; I don't know if you know the meme, it was the best way I could describe it.

again diving into personal headcanon territory, with a little bit of support from League lore (idk if its still relevant). i feel like i need to explain what my post canon vision for caitvi is to articulate what i think ekko would think of them. ramble incoming:

i think caitlyn and vi are gonna be enforcers again, caitlyn as the sheriff and vi her second-in-command (deputy). caitlyn will try to reform the enforcers with a stricter hand, and a watchful eye. theres a reason she didnt take her seat in the council- caitlyn is all about doing the hard job on location, seeing reality through her own eyes- she doesnt want to help by sitting in a tower and discussing things in theory, shes practical and realistic and she wants to experience the real thing. her job as sheriff will allow her to make that change while still giving her the access to do things on the field.

vi joining tbe enforcers will mainly be done to stay close to caitlyn and protect her if needed. vi never had a big direction in life other than the people she loves- she would jump on the opportunity to spend more time with cait and have the chance to punch people with her big gauntlets. her position as deputy is absolutely unearned in terms of experience or even commitment to the cause- but caitlyn is the sheriff and she put her there, so vi and her can stay close. which other enforcers, and pilties, and zaunites, are extremely aware of. it is corruption, even if relatively unharmful one. having a zaunite as the deputy made a lot of pilties upset, especially when shes so underqualified, and made them question caitlyn's ethics, for good reason. mega especially when vi is known to overall act out of line, cause unnecessary property damage, show overall disrespect to the reformed enforcer protocol and not bind herself to schedules, and yet get absolutely no punishment, let alone acknowledgement of her misdeeds by her boss, who turns a blind eye (wink wink) to her shenanigans.

so yeah, other enforcers are fuming, the pilties arent happy, and zaunites? well, despite caitlyn trying her best to solve the issues that ran years before she was born, there's only so much changing the protocol can do for her. she is harsher on enforcer violence and the prison under her watch has changed to be more humane, but its not like she can control every single enforcer personally. so its not perfect but its slightly better than what it used to be. caitlyn herself has the exact same attitude towards both pilties and zaunites- kind of cold, calculated, no bullshit taken, unapologetic, yet with a layer of empathy underneath the surface. kind of similar to what grayson was. this attitude doesnt win her people's favor on either side, but it does earn her respect- and especially in zaun, where her family status means nothing, that means a lot. she's definitely not a "champion of the people"- i think most people in the city actively dislike her, and the (true) rumors of corruption arent helping.

as for vi, zaunites see her as a traitor. she is known to be kind of a bulldozer that can be quite trigger happy, especially when it involves caitlyn (who we already discussed people dont really like) being in danger or disrespected. she has a dismissive "and what about that" attitude that is very zaun in nature, but since shes now wearing a badge, zaunites get annoyed with. pilties, of course, absolutely hate that attitude. so she isnt seen very favorably either, on either side of the river, just like her girlfriend.

the relationship between them is kind of an open secret. every enforcer in the force knows vi is only in her position cause she "gives caitlyn favors under the table", and those rumors reached topside and bottom as well. and again, they arent untrue, theyre just a relatively mean and shallow reading of the actual relationship between the women. neither caitlyn nor vi ever acknowledges these rumors. they stay at a 6 feet distance from each other while working, but the fact they are so interlinked really leaves no other answer. they know everybody knows, everybody knows that they know, and it's never addressed directly by either of them. their relationship is kind of an anigma to people on both sides- pilties think caitlyn settled for a street rat, zaunites think vi sold her soul to be with a rich pig. no one really knows the history or intimate details about their relationship, for obvious reasons, and thats what it looks like to them on the surface.

righttttt, this ask was about ekko. i got carried away. so ekko. how does he play into all of this? while he's not entirely on the average zaunite camp, he is reluctant to work with caitlyn, but does so anyway because ultimately they share similar goals. while he understands vi better than most people, and knows she always puts her loved ones before any political cause, he can't help but feel a little betrayed by her choice. i think he doesnt really see what vi sees in caitlyn, and since he doesnt "get" that, vi's choice to stay with her at all costs looks odd. especially since caitlyn on the surface just looks like a cold, authoritarian bitch. with good intentions! but still a bitch.

in the end, it all comes down to masks. i imagine post canon caitvi are both sporting masks for protection, and have their walls really high up in public. and can you blame them? they actively wear their weakest spot, their achilles heel- each other- on their sleeve. theyre in public positions, have a lot of eyes on them, and their "professional" relationship is extremely looked down upon. so caitlyn acts colder and harsher, and vi puts on a bravado of "i dont give a shit" and uses violence as a threat to deter people from seeing her as weak. the walls are there to ensure their safety. but like we saw in the series, when its just the two of them, all those walls crumble, and they allow themselves to just be vulnerable.

[ladyloveandjustice]

so like I saw this entire argument for the first time when someone reblogged this post a few weeks ago, and was like "well it was two years ago, it's cleary a reach but i'm not that invested, they clearly just REALLY want to yell about this issue of Batgirl rather than go with the most obvious interpretation that was clearly intended, whatever, it's fine" (If they had Jordanna bring up "are you poor" after Steph talked about "her own issues" it is supposed to imply she was poor, whether Steph answers or not (and why would she answer that), otherwise why would the comic bring it up, it's not deep)

but then i was looking at one of my old amvs and

Stephanie's house looks kind of rough there. Yet this was a flashback? No earthquake?

man looks rough there too and this was way before the earthquake. weird that doing-well middle class people wouldn't repair a cracked wall and window.

As I said, that there are plenty of other comics that show Stephanie's house looking run down, this is exhibit A that I just happened to run across. I didn't really have the energy to actually look but turns out I didn't have to.

Steph's dad put the family in a financial hole. That is stated in this very comic. "Using all their money" every time he comes back means a bunch of stuff will pile up and you have to dig yourself out of it. Including the house being in disrepair. In-universe, it's only been like what, a year? less? since the last time he did that in most comics she's in. People don't just automatically recover from that. And that was most of Steph's childhood, Arthur doing that. This is a comic where "we have financial issues" is directly bought up. Steph's Mom likely has very little savings.

That's all I say. Comics are inconsistent. The writers are not as thoughtful about finances as the fans sometimes. It's often hard to nail down a single interpretation. But people think Steph has financial issues because there's more than one comic where her house looks rough, because it's directly stated, it's not out of nowhere.

Like I said, not super invested, I'm not going to say else anything past this post. Steph isn't obviously in danger of being thrown out on the streets, there's miles of difference between her and someone who was literally homeless like Jason, but "struggling" isn't a reach. It's been accepted as a fact for 15 years, since the first time I got into comics, with every fan I talked to, and this is the first time I've seen it so hotly contested, even by people who were following my series of scans on scans_daily (liking it or disliking it), having bits from almost every comic Steph was in right in front of them.

(OH. oh. You don't like Stephanie. that explains the amount of passion here that was confusing for me, I didn't understand why it seemed you were so invested in refuting this. it's like a moral thing now whether she's poor? or a 'financially-concious middle class white girl" is that why white was bought up despite not being relevant to the current conversation about finances? or something? idk what's going on in fandom anymore. anyway.)

If you ever have the time/interest, would you break down the canon surrounding Stephanie’s economic circumstances/home life? It seems like a lot of people have chosen to take it a specific way so I’d love to see your reasoning

Sure. Thanks for asking, it’s honestly a fun topic.

Y’know it’s funny—I actually happen to own something that I think most people, even most Steph fans, haven’t seen: Steph’s first appearance. Not her Robin first appearance, her Detective Comics first appearance, her actual introduction. I happened to pick them up by accident at a con a few years ago because they’re also some of Tim’s first cover appearances. 

Other people might disagree with me on this, but I like to go back to the characters’ origins whenever I can to find the baseline of what they were originally intended to be and try to bring later interpretations in line with that. I like to think of retcons as new revelations, new plot twists in an ongoing story, and not a way to reset aspects of the past just to fit your story. It works especially well for this because Steph’s socio-economic status doesn’t actually change, there’s just kind of a game of telephone that happens across the decades that leads people to misunderstand. 

One thing worth noting in these early issues is just how much Steph, a 16-year-old girl, has at her disposal before she ever even glimpses Batman and Robin. Literally the first shot we ever see of the Spoiler is this: 

And because I am, in fact, that kind of nerd, I have gone in a couple of times and dug out old era-appropriate electronics magazines to figure out what that piece of equipment would cost you in 1992. Baseline for a parabolic microphone is $600, and that price is for much larger, more delicate pieces of equipment meant to be used for like, outdoor nature shoots, which wouldn’t be able to hear through glass. Steph probably dropped $1,000 on that microphone alone. 

Remember also that her costume is homemade—she doesn’t have any other way of getting it. She’s also shown using some pretty elaborate climbing and painting gear, with no indication that they were stolen or borrowed or anything, and you can see that she’s got a pretty well-stocked utility belt there.

Again, for some reason people tend to forget or overlook this but, right up until she demanded Bruce make her Robin, Steph operated as Spoiler with zero Bat support. She got some hand-to-hand training from Cass late in the game and tagged along on some of Tim’s assignments, but was otherwise being actively discouraged from vigilantism for most of her career. She made her own costume, bought her own equipment, and maintained her own motorcycle, all without the financial support of either Batman or her parents. 

So right off the bat we know she’s a teenage girl with a not-insignificant amount of personal disposable income, the only hinted source of which is the implication she works a part-time job somewhere—which I don’t think is ever brought up again when she reappears in Robin. 

We all know minimum wage went further in 1992 than it does now, but it didn’t go that much further. So it’s reasonable to assume that Steph has access to at least some money from her parents to support her vigilante habit, whether that’s in the form of an allowance, gifts that she carefully manages between Christmas and birthdays, or money that she’s able to just, take from Crystal without her noticing. 

But this page is more important to our current interests because it’s also when we see Steph’s neighborhood for the first time. We’re told here that Steph and her mother (who is called Mrs. Agnes Bellinger in this comic, although it’s possible she was using a fake name to visit her ex in prison) live in what is described as “115 South Holden Street, in Manchester.” 

Now keep in mind, the Gotham City map can be extremely fluid and tends to change depending on the needs of the story. But there have been attempts to map it, and “Manchester” has never been on any of those maps, so we have to do some extrapolation. At the very least, we can tell the neighborhood is clearly not in the city, given the very deliberate angle there in the first panel to show that they’re well away from the crowded downtown Gotham skyline.

This implies that Manchester is intended to be one of the mainland suburbs that feeds the island city of Gotham, similar to Bristol Township where the Wayne and Drake Manors are located. It’s not nearly as nice a neighborhood as Bristol—note the fenced-in front lawns, the broken shutters on the neighboring houses, and the vaguely racist lawn ornament on the Brown’s property—but it’s also not some rundown slum. People aren’t afraid to let kids play in their front yards or leave their garage doors standing open. And you’ll note those aren’t trailers, either, they’re decently-sized suburban homes.

Also worth noting: Crystal seems to keep this house perfectly fine on her own as a single mother. Arthur doesn’t live with them; when he’s shown having residences it tends to be apartments in the city by himself, and it’s not like he could support them from prison or with his ill-gotten criminal gains. And yet, we don’t see Steph or Crystal worrying at all about bills or mortgages or anything like that throughout any of their appearances. We see the interior of their house on several occasions and, while it’s often messy, it’s not in disrepair or neglect.

This is a constant portrayal throughout all of Steph’s appearances, from Robin through even her run as Batgirl. So, with that in mind, where does the idea that Steph is poor come from? Well, I’ve got a couple of theories.

One is the usual comics fandom problem: canon is huge, nobody can keep up with all of it, and some people go out of their way to be assholes about it, so misinformation gets spread like wildfire, in no small part because Steph is a character that a lot of people use as a self-insert and therefore she must be the misunderstood underdog in all things.

But on the more-interesting-to-talk-about front… I don’t think it’s controversial to say that Steph’s first big storyline was her pregnancy. Yeah? Like, it’s the first story involving her that really started getting critical attention. Whether it deserves that attention is more open to debate—personally, since reading Icon & Rocket for the first time, I’ve come to view it as Dixon pulling the comic book equivalent of white guys repackaging black music and watering it down—but the important thing right now is that it’s the first time people would’ve been specifically reading the Robin comics for Stephanie Brown. And in those comics, Steph’s house is shown as visibly run-down, covered in cracks and disrepair.

Thing is, there’s a context that people miss if you’re reading for the baby storyline and nothing else: this storyline plays out over the last days of “Aftershock” and early months of “No Man’s Land,” the storyline where Gotham is racked by a destructive earthquake that nearly levels the city and is abandoned by the federal government.

Again, we get the reinforced confirmation that Steph’s house isn’t actually in Gotham because it’s not destroyed in the quake—the neighborhood is damaged and briefly evacuated due to a gas line rupture in the immediate aftermath, but once that’s cleared up they’re free to return home, and their suburb is not part of the federal government’s evacuation. Nearly every building in Gotham is shown with similar damage during this time, including Drake Manor. 

This storyline also plays into, I think, the stereotypes that people jump on when it comes to Steph’s socioeconomic status. Like I’ve mentioned before: Arthur is a criminal, Crystal is a drug addict, and Steph is a teen mom. Therefore, they must be poor, right? Because good middle class families supposedly don’t have those kinds of problems.

But, as I’ve mentioned before, that’s an inaccurate stereotype that ignores reality: plenty of drug addicts, criminals and teen moms live in the suburbs. And the Browns’ specific circumstances are distinctly atypical of the stereotype—Arthur’s not some down-on-his-luck thief pushed to crime by economic hardship, he’s an arrogant former gameshow host who thinks he’s smarter than everyone else and resents the world for not handing him the success he feels entitled to. Crystal’s not some crack addict, she’s a working nurse who used to get her doctor friends to write her scripts for prescription painkillers. And Steph is just a teenage girl who slept with a boy and got pregnant, with the costs of prenatal care and/or childrearing never seeming to be a factor in her decision to bring the child to term and give it up for adoption. 

I could go on but that’s pretty much the long and short of it: Steph is simply not shown as being poor in the comics. Ever. She’s not rich, she does clearly rely on her fists much more than any gadgets or fancy gear and lives with her mother rather than moving out on her own for college, but she’s also never shown worrying about student loans and can apparently pay for all her classes with some government assistance and a part-time job alone.

People just assume that she’s poor because they’re misinformed, or they’re projecting, or they’ve got biases they haven’t examined, or they need her to be an underdog to justify their argument against one of the other characters, or they really want her to be buddy-buds with Jason for some reason. 

Or, y’know, they just don’t want to acknowledge that they’re rooting for a middle-class white girl from the suburbs who commutes into the inner city to pick fights for fun. 

[alittlebitofloveliness]

Wassup y'all, I'm back from lowkey radio silence with another hot take.

I've been trying to figure out lately why my multishipper ass dislikes a lot of ships within the fandom- more specifically a lot of greaser/soc pairings, and I realised at the core of it it's because there is no conceivable universe where they work without completely changing canon or the personalities of the characters. or at the very least their loyalties and motivations. Narratively, the novel is very clear about this, it even throws Marbit in our faces to prove it, showing (greaser) Two-bit his absolute dream girl who is beautiful and fun and likes him too , and yet is forever unattainable because she's a soc.

"Oh but Lovely, you ship Marbit! And you've written Parry! Obviously you're just hating on our ships."

No, I'm not. I very specifically DON'T hate on any ship, because that makes fandom less fun and more toxic and that is the LAST thing I want to do and because everyone deserves to have their blorbos and their ships that make them happy, I'm not here to yuck anyone's yum. And I realise my claiming I can't see greaser/soc pairings and using Marbit as an example of why while also actively shipping them looks very hypocritical. That said, I ship both Marbit and Parry in a very specific way, that would work canon compliantly, or at the absolute minimum still within canon verse without changing the tensions or the history between the east side and the west wide, or the characters as people.

Do I think Marbit could work in canon (in a post canon verse)? Absolutely I do- but not with Marcia staying a soc, or (more unlikely) Two-bit staying a greaser. If it's going to work- and I think it will because they are each others person, in any universe, whether it works or not- then Marcia either needs to fully acccept that the man she's in love with is a greaser and will always be a greaser, he is from the east side, and he has nothing set up in terms of a future, and no family money to keep him safe and sheltered. She needs to accept it, and accept Two-bit in the process, and embrace a life where she is ok with it being her future, particularly if she and Two-bit ever want to date in the open, and definitely if they ever want to get married. If Marcia wants Two-bit she needs to be prepared for the judgment she will face from her peers for marrying a man so far 'beneath' her, has to be prepared for potentially being disowned/cut off by her parents, needs to be okay with the realities of east side life becoming her reality. In a slightly different reality, Two-bit needs to be prepared for marrying Marcia meaning he needs to clean up his act, needs to realise it will entail being forever looked down on by her family and friends (if they stay in contact), be prepared for Marcia's parents to pull some strings and get him a decent job, not a soc level one but one available to the upper middle class and definitely not poor kids. If Two wants Marcia he needs to recognise that it will mean no more petty thieving and no more booze and being viewed as a class traitor by the majority of his neighbourhood. In either version he has to be ready to deal with the people who will tell him he's ruining Marcia' life, that he dragged her away from her life and her potential, will perhaps have to grapple with those feelings even if they come from no one but himself.

But I still could see them working in canon, and working as themselves, but their relationship would always be affected by soc and greaser dynamics and if they work out, one of them will forever be viewed as a class traitor, and it will absolutely not be smooth sailing no matter how much they love each other.

Parry is a little bit different, but it's still a greaser/soc ship I could see fitting in canon, or in universe without egregiously changing the characters or class tensions, and a big part of why is because it's a clandestine relationship that is doomed from the start, and is doomed in every universe. It's a first love, a secret gay relationship between teenage hypermasculine football players in the 60s. Here, class tensions probably caused tension in the relaionship, but outside pressures would be less because Darry was well liked by even the rich kids and known to be going places, and also because the relationship itself never saw the light of day. The reason I ship Parry but only when they're doomed is because it very obviously could happen: Darry could kiss Paul in secret and still be a greaser loyal to this neighbourhood, and Paul could snog Darry and still be an upstanding upper class golden boy without looking like he's punching down, because no one knew they were dating in the first place. They could have truly loved each other when they were together and in canon it means nothing except the fact that their fight was a bit more personal than any other at the rumble, because neither of them ever intended for their relationship to be anything but a secret. They knew it would never be real in the sense they could have a life together, so it fits in canon because they characters were only ever going to be themselves, and as themselves their social classes make it so they are fundamentally incompatible, even if homophobia wasn't a barrier that it so obviously would have been. Darry and Paul work as a plausible couple because they never plausibly would have ever made a go of a serious relationship, and they both know it.

"Oh but Lovely," you say "by that logic any greaser/soc gay ship works in canon verse or canon adjacent verse. You should be able to see/ship any of them." To which I say no, not necessarily. First of all, not every queer person throughout history was okay with having a secret relationship- quiet ones sure, but gay people had 'roommates' in the sixties, and i think textually there is a lot of evidence to support that the majority of the Outsiders characters, were they queer, would not be particularly interested in being anyone's dirty little secret. And even if that weren't the case, and they'd be fine with a secret relationship, the fact remains that the greasers and the socs don't like each other. In fact, they canonically despise each other to the point where violence between the groups is commonplace. Darry was in a very unique position as captain of the football team and boy of the year, to form a connection with Paul that would be able to blossom into romance. He had a level of comfort and familiarity with the socs that the vast majority of the greasers don't have, and would never attempt to or even want to attain. The average greaser sees the socs as a danger and the reason they always get the short end of the stcik, and the average soc sees the greasers as ruffians and thugs, dirt under their shoes that belongs there. Yes, the book makes the point that all people are just people, but from what we see textually the chances of a greaser and a soc- particularly of the same gender- getting close enough to form a romantic attachment is slim to none unless both sides got really cool with a bunch of stuff really quickly after the rumble.

ANWAY if anyone is still here thank you for listening to my rambly unedited thoughts from 2am, these are my reasons for not shipping the majority of greaser/soc pairs, I hope they make sense

[jess-the-vampire]

Quick question one fan to another. Do you think Phillip knew he was related to Eda & Lilith? And would have knowing about his family made any difference or was he just too far gone?

genuinely? hard to tell

i mean dana claims "Some people do know"

and philip COULD of been one of them, and you could say that's a factor in why eda and lilith are targeted the way they were

but on another hand, you can also kinda sum that up as a result of remembering lilith from his past and therefore disliking her from that, and eda herself being the prime example of rebellion against his authority

there's nothing in the show that concretely proves he knew

especially since a lot of it relies on knowing about what happened with caleb and evelyn, which once again, is left with a lot of wiggle room

like we don't even know if philip actually knew evelyn's last name at all, or if he knew of her or about her long enough for that

when that stuff is all pretty vauge it's just yeahhhhh

if we are to assume Philip knew evelyn was pregnant he would have to be AWARE caleb has witch decedents probably, but he wasn't in power till 50 years ago, so i don't also see how he could keep an eye on caleb's entire family line either for 400 years

also also, maybe philip went after evelyn and said kid, maybe he just...gave up after caleb died and moved onto other things (It's still not even clear how evelyn got his door after all, if we are to assume it's evelyn's doing, because the door appears to be post caleb death)

(Look, i've been over this a few times, this timeline kinda doesn't really make sense, i'm kinda not convinced the crew planned out a proper timeline of events for the wittebanes because there are things that currently kinda don't make sense)

yeah idk, it's kinda left more up to your interpretation, like if you see belos as knowing nothing really proves you wrong

but yeah, nothing proves it right either, philip had plenty of other established reasons to single out lilith and eda outside of that concept.

i don't think it would of made any difference nonetheless, like maybe if philip saw his niece/nephew as more human then witch there could of been a dynamic of him thinking he could "Fix" them, but on another hand philip is shown to not trust anything and anyone who isn't a human like him.

The guy is very much been brainwashed by how he grew up to believe everything he doesn't understand is trying to manipulate him and hurt him, and i don't think any family he may have in the clawthornes would make him see witches differently

honestly i wouldn't be shocked if in his mind, evelyn and caleb having a kid to him is like a demon stealing someone he held dear to use for offspring because of how deluded he is about this stuff

granted, that also depends heavily on how you think philip assumes about the situation, him believing caleb was under a spell and him believing Caleb did everything of his own will have DRASTICLY different implications about why he did what he did.

so yeah, if you're to ask me this is all more of the same "This is kinda supported by canon but is also kinda not" stuff that is kinda all over the wittebane backstory in general

if we ever get that wittebane backstory, they have a lot of clear up here because there's a lot left to interpretation and it's kinda why people have very drastically different opinions on how aspects of this character were handled.

guy should of been destroyed at the end no matter what of course, but

people seeing him as a more tragic unredeemable villian doomed from the beginning due to growing up in extremism as a child and no guidance to pull him out of it so he just got worse and worse, and people who see him as just an asshole who never cared about his brother and was perfectly capable of getting out of his brainwashing is very much a result of leaving a lot of this stuff kinda up to interpretation

[c0rpsedemon]

links under cut

romeo and cinderella (honorary mentions: ghost rule by deco*27, unknown mother goose by wowaka and gift from the princess who brought sleep by mothy)

kakakuri lament (the symbol used is the left facing buddhist swastika not the right facing nazi one and it was changed to be less swastika-like in later illustrations + the fascist regime here is portrayed like it is in fmdm (actually eerily similar to the fmdm fascists. fmdm came out in 2009 so it's v possible that this was written like immediately after playing it which would explain a lot) i swear i did not link a nazi song) (honorary mention: regret message by mothy)

fire flower (i hated this song for YEARS. the power of a rlly good remaster ig.) (honorary mention: superhero by nem)

snowman (honorary mention: judgement of corruption by mothy)

evil food eater conchita (no honorable mentions i don't listen to much meiko)

akahitoha (fully had luka luka night fever here before i was adding honorary mentions and remembered my actual fave) (honorary mentions: luka luka night fever by samfree, tailor shop on enbizaka by mothy)

the last revolver (honorary mention: muzzle of nemesis by mothy)

prince of necrophilia (this had to be one of the closest calls, i was between this and the specimen girl remaster) (honnorary mentions: specimen girl (2020 remaster) by kiyozumi, the tragedy of chateau cepage by uzuki)

yoshiwara lament (honorary mention: atelier horloge by mothy)

[snarksalon]

"The reason that I feel like it's out of character is that I don't feel like she would call them a villain I'm not saying that her apology is out of character her apologies a bit manipulative which is kind of out of character and it's also not really an apology for anything she did that was wrong it was her apologizing for her protest not working there"

She isn't calling them villains, she's saying that breaking hero regulations and acting in a matter would be acting in the same way that the villains do effectively. In the series both heroes and villains use lethal force, the distinction really is that heroes have a legal authorisation to do so. I don't think it's out of character for a calm, rational, blunt character to oppose vigilanteism.

Secondly, she has not done anything wrong and has only expressed her opinion. Her apology isn't manipulative, her worry is that the others will dislike her BECAUSE she opposed them even though her opposition came from a place of general concern about their safety and wellbeing. It's clearly coming from a fear of ostracisation. What she has said isn't incorrect, their actions were reckless and could have resulted in serious harm. The only reason why the fandom is unable to compute this, is because they manage to save Bakugo.

"it worked just like if you tell someone not to do something and they do it anyway and it works you're like oh wow I can't believe I almost convinced you not to do it cause it worked or like if someone tries to convince you not to do something but it ends up working in your favor and youre like I can't believe I almost listened to what you said cause it ended up working"

Yes, Momo's plan works, but their actions are still illegal and they still could have been punished by being expelled or being held to account by the hero commission. There's a difference. Heroes are not just allowed to act with impunity, and reckless extrajudicial behaviour like that should be discouraged even if there is a positive result.

"imagining the what if about Izuku and the others getting injured but still you wouldn't think that they would be upset that they couldn't stop them when it went so well it just doesn't make sense to me I guess"

Again, Tsuyu is upset and worried about her disapproval of their actions creating strain on their relationship.

The simple way to put this is.

Tsuyu isn't being manipulative through her apology, she hasn't done anything wrong through expressing a legitimate opinion (one backed by the Hero Commission and society at large which prohibit and punish vigilantism).

Tsuyu is fifteen years old at the time of this apology. She is worried that there may be social consequences to opposing some of her classmates. She is upset and disappointed with her friends for not heeding her advice and believes that the success of the mission means that they may look upon her less favourably.

Teenagers often think in black and white and may struggle with nuance, Tsuyu is worried that they will think her opinion means she dislikes them or is worried they may dislike her because she has a difference in opinion.

okay i LOVE tsu but when anyone else kind of pissed off when she was crying about calling shoto,izuku, tenya, yaomomo and ejiiro villains like you're the one who said it and you're not even saying sorry for the fact that you said it but you're saying that finding out that they went and saved your classmates life made you feel useless because you shit talked to them and it didn't convince them to not go and save his life like I don't know if I was missing something or what but like her crying just pissed me off so bad like every single time I rewatch like that specific scene just makes me so angry and her calling them villain too because like there's so many other ways that she could've tried to convince them but instead because she wanted to try to convince them to not go and save him she calls the most promising students in the class villains like what I get that she was trying to fix things and you know keep them from getting in trouble and doing the wrong thing but still it's just so stupid and lowkey annoying as hell and honestly knowing that they were the ones who saved katsuki all of them should've been feeling bad like oh my god I can't believe we tried to talk them out of it when katsuki could've died and after seeing how badly all night was injured and said fight they might've been like he actually could've really gotten hurt what if all might I couldn't save him because all my almost didn't save him like you would expect them to feel bad for trying to stop them not feel bad because they didn't succeed in stopping them and I feel like her crying to them and then saying sorry for hurting her by literally going and saving katsuki's life is insane and honestly I feel like it's kind of out of character because she's actually a sweetheart

anyway characters mentioned:

tsuyu asui

shoto todoroki

izuku midoriya

tenya iida

momo yaoyorozu

eijiro kirishima

katsuki bakugo

[fragmentedblade]

Boothill's presentation being entirely on the twitter post makes me think he will be irrelevant in the story in the long(ish) run, and that the game itself won't dwell on him almost at all

[dragons-and-yellow-roses]

Just remembered I have a psychiatrist appointment so early tomorrow. And I obviously dyed my hair so recently because there's green staining on my face. I don't think it's going to look great for the bipolar diagnosis, to disclose that I was feeling impulsive and wanted to get control over something, so I dyed my hair at midnight.

[brittlebutch]

the thing about Aelwyn that I think about a lot is that there's a lot to the notion that she, to a certain extent, was so abrasive with Adaine because of how obstinate Adaine is with their parents. If you have based a chunk of your personality on the precept of "The only way to protect myself is to meet my parents' expectations and obey them at all costs", then every time Adaine pushes back against them, there is almost unquestionably a fear-response -- even if you aren't the one who set your parent off, their stress/frustration can fill a room to the point of becoming smothering anyway. And if you don't feel safe getting mad at your parents for being a source of stress/fear in your life, then invariably the only thing you can do is begin to resent the third-party who you perceive as setting them off for no reason instead of playing it safe, like you do.

[biancabelairs]

i am once again asking if aew is aware that saraya is not a babyface lmao

[piano-sideblog]

also I find it really funny how in like all of SDC fanart Anne is almost always not there. So irrelevant people forget her LOL

[grandwretch]

if winds of winter comes out and Sansa and Jon's friendship was a TV show hallucination idk what I'll do. set myself on fire? drown in a lake?

[celibibratty]

i thought reddit were more down to earth, no!, this is not being down to earth, they are just rude...just rude!/jerks!, it-was-only-supposed-to-be a text saying that the pak mei form should have on Nintendo switch.........i have a fucking fuss/fighting magnet for some fuckin reason on this shit💢🔥 anything I say on this shit site appears a bunch of motherfuckers to disagree or complain about something, trying to be the known at alls, don't mess with me, that i don't mess with you, if you gonna bite/come to me with bad heart shitty comments, i will bite you too(and i will bite HARD), don't try me, i not in my best state of spirit🔥💢, you so coward and dumbass that you need a bunch dumbass homies like you to defend your shitty behaviour/comments so you feel right/in power, whata hell, i just do/write things on my own little way if don't like/don't have patient to read it, FUCK YOU!, so you not the person to read this, it makes me feel sad how such a cool game like sifu attract such motherfuckers(come on ana i already know/notice that since the moment that the game released (february 2022), don't get so surprised, gamers/fight game community is shitty), stop, stop, stop with this, i used to thought the same thing with lis2 on 2020/weird diazcest and extremist anti phase, i shouldn't take this things from heart, shitty people will always exist on things that you like(it's not the things fault, don't blame them, Ana)