#like i disliked arya in S7 and jon in general but i never believed for a second that either of them was going to get unceremoniously killed

[stardyng]

Just watched a few episode reviews and some channels are legit pissed that Arya didn't immediately jump to Jon's side against Sansa. Like, they seriously expected it to be "Jon & Arya vs Sansa" just like the good old days. Some even went as far as to say that Arya calling Sansa smart was OOC. Yeah, cause god forbid if two women (two sisters no less) resolve their childhood disagreements and learn to respect and appreciate each other. That can never happen, amirite?

So far, what happened in the show and the different sects in the fandom’s reaction are all things I anticipated. Jon is presented as the protagonist of the series, and his fans definitely portray as being this golden hero  to the point where they often simplify every other character and their role in the story in ways that would serve Jon. As I mentioned before, the view the people who agree and validate Jon as the ‘’good guys’’ and the ones who have different point of views and disagree with him either as ‘’obstacles’’ or full-blown antagonists. Every character isn’t defined by their character arc but by their relationship with Jon. To a certain extent, the show does validate that belief since other characters are often reduced for Jon, but the show doesn’t relegate them to supporting characters as much as Jon stans hoped. To them, Daenerys is Jon’s glorified trophy wife, Arya and Lyanna are supposed to be his cheerleaders, and since Sansa disagrees too much with Jon, she has to be criticized and then punished by the narrative for it (the reason why Jon stans want the whole ‘’Sansa is going to betray Jon then die’’ plotline to happen is for Sansa to be explicitely written off as a bad person for the crimes of voicing her disagreement to Jon). Essentially, they assign roles to every character in Jon’s story arc and if that character doesn’t fill that role correctly, then they are acting “out of character”.

Moving on from that, when it comes to Arya, them wanting Arya to be on Jon’s side is understandable, however, at this point of the story, character-wise, Arya’s main priorities are her home and family, and she’s united with Sansa on that front. It’s normal that she isn’t going to agree with Jon making decisions that threaten these things, and that she is going to be critical of what she feels are possible threats to her home and family. Anyways, I’m not sure what people expected the Sansa and Arya dynamic to be like this season. The whole point of the conflit between them last season was to have them become an unit. The writers wanted them to reach a stage where they both recognize each other’s qualities ahd achievements and are united in their stance about what they have to do and what they want. It’s not an out of character thing to happen, it’s the natural progression of their plot line last season.

[fortunatelylori]

I love it when JD shippers loftily say they just want Jon to be happy, with the pointed implication that we are Bad Jon Fans for disliking the ship and that we should just be glad that he's happy. That's a bold claim to make, considering Jon has looked miserable or tense around her at every turn, including when he was bALLz dEEP. How are they gonna say they want what's best for Jon when they ship him in a relationship that makes him look so unhappy and so far has been all about what D wants?

Hey, nonnie!

I try to the best of my abilities not to make general statements regarding people but I’ve always wondered just how many of the J0nereys stans were actually Jon fans prior to season 7 or paid much attention to him at all. Because, as a Jon fan from season 1, one of the reasons why I could never contemplate this ship is because Jon looks miserable through all of his interactions with D*ny, even during their sex scene and also that by meeting her, Jon actually regresses as a character.

 He ends season 6 having come back from the dead, won the Battle of the Bastards, being back at Winterfell, having Sansa telling him he’s a Stark and ultimately have a room full of Northern lords enthusiastically proclaim him their king. As a Jon fan, I was ecstatic for him. It felt like a triumph, a new stage in his development and, in many ways, justice for a character that has suffered and lost so much through the previous 5 seasons. 

Within the span of 4 episodes, D*ny has managed to turn all of that null and void for Jon. He’s no longer king. By the way season 7 played out, the Northern lords won’t support him and will in fact reject him. If J0nereys stans are to be believed, Jon gave up his country’s independence and turned the Starks back into vassals because he was overwhelmed by love for D*ny. If that is the case, I would find it very hard to believe that Sansa will continue to support him or that his actions won’t cause a rift in their relationships. I know a lot of them like to downplay Sansa’s importance in Jon’s life, but, leaving aside the possible romantic undertones to their relationship, Sansa is essentially the reason why Jon spent s6 and at least the first part of s7 fighting. If she wasn’t in his life, he would have rode South to get warm and essentially given up on everything. So to say that losing that relationship won’t have an effect on Jon is ludicrous, in my opinion. So his love for D*ny might end up costing Jon at least one of his family members, if not more than one (I don’t buy Arya and D*ny as BFFs for life). 

What Jon fan wants that for their favorite character? 

I think the reason why they can claim this and sort of justify it is because of the way D*ny’s narrative has played out until now. I’ve talked about this in the past but D*ny doesn’t face any consequences for her actions, only momentary set-backs. 

By that logic of course Jon falls in love with her despite her refusal to help him in the WW war and keeping him prisoner. Of course, Sansa, Arya and Bran will welcome her to Winterfell and love her more than their own siblings. And if they don’t, it won’t matter. Because now that he has D*ny, Jon doesn’t need anything else: he doesn’t need his Stark family (despite it being the most important aspect of his life), he doesn’t need to have a position (despite the fact that he accepted positions of power not once but twice), he doesn’t need respect or appreciation from his peers. All he needs to be happy and fulfilled is to serve D*ny. 

I agree with them in the sense that I want Jon to be happy. I just can’t see any possible way that he would ever be happy with D*ny. 

Thanks for the ask!

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

I believe they made Bran come to Winterfell too early in S7. Till the end, they didn't know what to do with him. One thing I really dislike is how the use him as just a projector (things people already know/guessed) while he can do so many things.

I don’t believe that they made Bran to come to Winterfell too early, I simply think that they underused him in season 7 (and same can be said about previous seasons as well).

While I disliked the s7 Winterfell plot in general(mostly because the hostility between the Stark sisters) one thing that I did like is that the three Stark kids were on the same place after so many seasons of being separated. This could be a good opportunity for them to catch up with each other, further bond and yes even resolving past problems they might had. But we never got to see Bran interacting with his sisters aside from his reunion with them. Even the scene where Bran talks to Sansa about Littlefinger’s true intentions happens off screen. And for what? For the sake of cheap suspense- so we wouldn’t know whether Sansa would order Littlefinger or Arya’s execution (which was so silly because I bet everyone had already guessed that there was no way a Stark kid to kill one of their own).

Bran meeting his sisters after such a long time had the potential to lead in many interesting scenes between them. But the writers never wrote the appropiate scenes for that. They didn’t even used the established canon in their world. For example, since Bran has gained so much knowledge it would make sense to help with the castle and their subjects matters. Instead of Sansa dealing alone (or worse with Littlefinger’s untrustworthy advices) with all the ruling duties, they could have shown us a co operating between Bran and his eldest sister.

Furthermore, was it necessary for Meera to leave Winterfell? It doesn’t make sense for her to leave when most Northerners are gathering to Winterfell until the threat of the Others is over. If she had stayed, she would still share scenes with Bran. Those scenes would give us a more insightful perspective on him  because Meerawas the only person alive who had witnessed Bran’s transformation from a normal boy to a all knowing being. Also, those kind of scenes would help Bran look less like a narrative tool and more like an actual major character.

I’m really disappointed on how the show has handled Bran’s story for the most part. I don’t have many expectations for season 8 but at least I hope that Bran will contribute to the war against the Others and the finale and won’t just be there to reveal Jon’s parentage

[asknightqueendany]

Whenever I’ve seen u hate on Sansa you always point out her trusting baelish in s7 and her behavior with the Karstarks. Both were bad decisions but the reasons make sense. Karstarks- Sansa went through hell with Ramsay and she I think she wants to be strict making sure that the north knows there are consequences for their actions should they turn on her. Deep down she probably knows two children can’t hurt her much but since she’s been betrayed a lot and in the worst ways- she’s very paranoid.

Part 2- she is just falling into the bad habit of being overly paranoid. Next her trusting baelish- Sansa always ever since s2 knows that baelish is not trustworthy but she never had anyone else that seemed willing to actually take her home. Yes he betrayed her but at that point it had become a habit to trust him and to be manipulated by him. Dany took 7 seasons to acknowledge that drogo raped her. Sansa took 7 seasons to finally realize that baelish will NEVER be on her side.   

Part 3- a lot of ppl also bring up the way she acted with the lords when they spoke abt Jon. Sansa has never been seen as anything but a pawn and now she’s actually valued by the lords so it went straight to her head. Also she did explain that the northern lords are always shifty and that she needs there support in the wars to come so she can’t anger them! I love all the asoiaf ladies and I think the reason some may not like Sansa is bc it’s harder to get inside her head and understand.     

Separate ask but also about Sansa so I’m combining them (Anon 2):

You don’t have to like Sansa but if you ever become part of the Sansa fandom.. not all of us hate dany or hate every character besides Sansa. Everyone I follow loves Sansa and Dany and especially loves Sansa and Arya. Yes ppl ship jonsa (I personally don’t) and most ppl who ship jonsa dislike Dany but a lot of ppl that like Sansa don’t even ship jonsa. There are lot of vocal jonsa fans but that fandom is VERY small.            

Okay. I am so tired of talking about Sansa on this blog. Why do her supporters continue asking me about her? My opinions of her have not changed. The first 3pt ask did not made me change my opinions about her. And I severely disagree with everything the first asker wrote. Surely Anon 1, you had to have know I’d deconstruct your argument in my answer, right? So are we to have a back and forth of you sending me anons in regards to Sansa, and me continuing to dig my heels in about her because I firmly believe where I stand on here and have canon to back it up? It’s kind of exhausting.

I will answer these questions today. But I ask that people stop sending me questions about Sansa. I don’t like her. I have never liked her. I have never wanted to be in the “Sansa” fandom. I don’t enjoy watching scenes with her character in them. I didn’t enjoy reading her chapters in ASOIAF. And I don’t want to discuss her character anymore. I don’t even enjoy comparing her to Daenerys and don’t see why so many people do because they are very different characters with very different stories and journeys but since her rabid stans (not the non-rabid ones) hate Daenerys and always make Sansa-Dany comparisons, I’m forced to do so also to refute the wrong and hateful assumptions made about Dany.

But from now on, I’m going to try to refrain from talking about Sansa as much as possible because...I really don’t want to and don’t like to. So again, please no more asks about her.

Anon 1: You admit Sansa is overly paranoid and that Sansa likely knew the Karstark and Umber kids wouldn’t hurt her and blame her paranoia on Ramsay and say her “bad decisions” as you call them - trusting Baelish and not trusting the Umber and Karstark kids - make sense.

Whoa, there’s a lot to unpack there.

Let’s start with Ramsay - Sansa is paranoid because of Ramsay (and likely all her other tormentors - Joffrey, Cersei, and Lysa). But who put Sansa in that position with Ramsay? And the position with Lysa? BAELISH. If Baelish hadn’t kissed Sansa out in the open where Lysa could see, then Sansa’s life wouldn’t have been threatened by Lysa in the first place.

It’s almost as if Baelish did it on purpose so he had an excuse to kill Lysa and further endear himself to Sansa. Lysa comes across as crazy. She nearly kills Sansa. Baelish steps in and “saves” Sansa. But Baelish only saved Sansa from the threat that HE opened her up to.

AND Baelish didn’t need to kill Lysa. She calms down once he tells her he’s only ever loved one woman. He could have continued lying to her but he wanted to get her out of the way so he killed her.

Sansa learns about Lysa being the one to kill Jon Arryn on Baelish’s orders. She learns that it was Baelish’s idea for Lysa to send the letter to Catelyn that it was the Lannisters who killed Jon when really it was Lysa, thereby starting the conflict between Stark and Lannister. Baelish doesn’t kill Lysa because he just doesn’t want her around anymore and doesn’t want to deal with her. He kills her because she knows too much. AND NOW SANSA KNOWS TOO.

Doesn’t this sound familiar? It’s just like with Ser Dontos. Dontos knew too much and was a drunk - Lysa knew too much and was not of sound mind. Sansa has witnessed Baelish killing both these people who know too much of his shady dealings and yet...she still keeps him around. WHY???

He’s also the one who sold her to Ramsay Bolton. Saved her from monsters who murdered her family and gave her to other monsters who murdered her family. Even if Ramsay was a stand up guy...Roose still plunged a knife into Robb Stark’s heart. Her father-in-law would be the man who killed her brother. That’s all kinds of fucked up.

And it’s all because of Baelish.

Knowing all this about Baelish, Sansa keeps him as her ONLY confidante. She doesn’t even seek Maester Wolkan’s council! The man who is MEANT to council and serve the Lord/Lady of Winterfell!!! We’ve only got one scene of the two of them together and Sansa is telling Wolkan what to do, she’s not asking for his advice. Wolkan would have been a much more neutral and wiser advisor and yet, Sansa never seeks his advice. Not on what to do about the Northern Lords, not on what to do about Arya - WHICH IF SANSA HAD CONFIDED IN WOLKAN ABOUT THE ARYA SITUATION AND THE LETTER SHE WOULD HAVE SNIFFED OUT BAELISH’S PLOT THAT MUCH QUICKER!!!!!!!! FFS I’m getting so mad about this. Wolkan was a man of the Citadel, sworn to the castle he served, sworn to HER. And she never sought his advice. Damnit this makes me so mad. How can anyone justify this? How can anyone say Sansa’s mistrust of people in general would mean she turns to the man she’s seen kill two people because of wanting to keep his secrets safe and not trust the man who’s sworn to serve her.

If Sansa is so goddamn mistrustful, she should have kicked Baelish to the curb. Not kept him in her presence whispering in her ear 24/7. How could she not suspect him of trying to play her? HOW???

Moving on....

On to Alys Karstark and Ned Umber. You say this was a bad decision but one that made sense for what Sansa’s gone through. I call bullshit. Alys and Ned are meant to be portrayed as children, Alys possibly of an age with Sansa, but Ned clearly much younger.

However, Alys’s age doesn’t really matter because Sansa treats her and Ned the same. She wants to kick them out. Anon 1, you say this is because Sansa wants the North to know what happens to people who betray her - which, hello, I’m surprised you even worded it like that because that’s usually the kind of accusation that gets hurled at Daenerys. So you’re saying Sansa is vengeful? She wants her people to fear her? Because that is ruling with fear. Making her people afraid of the consequences if they cross her and making an example of two innocent children - that’s ruling by fear. I don’t know how people can see it any other way.

And Sansa, who was a child with the label of “traitor’s daughter” after Ned’s whole ordeal, should know how children can often get caught up in their parent’s political mishaps. While she wasn’t forced from her home, she also couldn’t go back to her home because it was taken from her family. And yet, knowing what she went through, she wants to do the same thing to Ned Umber and Alys Karstark. I’m saying it was a bad decision...and it didn’t make any sense.

The people Sansa really should have been critical of and kept a watchful eye over - were the Lords who were directly involved with not coming to House Stark’s aid. Manderly, Glover, Cerwin. They were the ones who truly turned their backs on House Stark. Ned and Alys however are innocent, weren’t the ones who betrayed the Starks (it was their fathers who are now dead) and they both showed up to court at Winterfell when they were called to do so! Ned and Alys left their homes and went to Winterfell - likely at Jon’s command - knowing there was a possibility they may be going to answer for their father’s crimes. But they dutifully went anyway. Ned and Alys just by being at Winterfell in 7x01 rather than holding up in their castles fearing the Starks - shows way more loyalty and faith than what Manderly, Glover, and Cerwin did before the Battle of the Bastards. This has nothing to do with Sansa’s previous experiences with betrayal and Ramsay’s savagery and whatnot. It’s just plain ignorance and stubbornness. And it may have earned her enemies in Ned and Alys should the North get divided between her and Jon (not that it ever would, but just saying).

Now, Anon 2

As stated, I don’t want to be in the Sansa fandom and don’t care. However, I think you’re severely mistaken when saying the Jonsa fandom is SMALL. They’re not. They’re all over the place on Tumblr and have pretty much taken over the Sansa Stark tag here. I honestly don’t know how her fans who are not Jonsas or don’t hate everyone else, Dany included, can even operate on this site because of all the bile they spew. I truly feel bad for the Sansa fans who are kind and enjoy other characters and don’t post hate. I really do. I don’t know how you guys stay sane. It seems like an even more difficult part of the fandom to reside in than being a Daenerys stan to be honest. But I want no part of it. I am a Daenerys blog, a Daenerys stan. I love other characters, but Sansa isn’t one of them - though I will acknowledge her wins and achievements when it is appropriate because I am not so lowly that I think everything Sansa does is a mistake and try to hate on her all the time. I can see when she’s done good and has a win and I will celebrate her wins with the rest of the fandom because I love Game of Thrones and ASOIAF and if Sansa has a win, then that’s great.

[thelegendofclarke]

I'm not sure that the Undercover Lover Jon thing is true, even though I get why people believe it. If it isn't true tho, what is the third treason that Dany's going to suffer? I thought it was pretty much agreed that it was going to be Jon.

Hokay I know I said I wasn’t going to talk about this, but I am nothing if nothing contrary af. SO anon I am going to use your ask as a kind of like ~general layout~ of my thoughts on the potential of UCJ.  I’m going to maintain though that I would prefer not to discuss any potential consent issues for personal reasons. 

I am also gonna shout out to the other few anons as, well as @ladyanyawaynwood and @lyanna-mormont, who also sent me asks on this topic. 

SO all right folks *drum roll* It’s the new favorite fandom Disc Horse! Either you love it or you hate it! Either you want to have its babies or want to kill it with fire!… It’s THE UNDERCOVER JON THEORY!

Before I start rambling, you should all totally check out the bottom part of this really excellent post by @him-e about some of the details and possibilities of this theory, because Claudia is so much better at words and explanations and life than me. There’s also this post by @blindestspot, whose no nonsense approach I always really appreciate.

Ok, first of all: I would like to go on record once more in saying that God I really dislike the name Undercover Jon. I primarily hate it because I feel like it’s misleading, at least in terms of what I personally would consider this theory to be. I feel like “undercover” implies deliberateness and ill intent and malice aforethought that I generally don’t really think is involved here. Also, I guess I don’t really subscribe to the Undercover Lover theory at all, because I don’t think Jon’s feelings for/sexual relationship with Dany have anything to do with it (i.e. I do not think Jon purposefully and deliberately seduced Dany for the sole purpose of manipulating her, nor do I think he is merely pretending to have feelings for her for the sole purpose of personal/political gain). 

I truly don’t believe Jon is in any way maliciously gaslighting Dany as part of any Grand Scheme. Personally, I feel that would be too much at odds with the Honorable and Noble character and narrative established for Jon. But that’s not to say that I don’t think the general theory is totally with out merit. I actually think some elements of it could definitely make up a potential plot line. I have explained my take on it as more Flying By the Seat of His Pants Jon- I think “scheme” would be way too strong a word, I think “plan” would probably even be too generous. It’s probably more along the lines of “ok so this is what we are doing now.”

Somewhere along the line I feel like this whole thing turned into something VERY black and white and moralized. I also think that somewhere down the line this turned into a VERY polarized and mutually exclusive theory, which I don’t think would be the case in the event that the theory ends up being true. I have seen a lot of comparisons being made to LF and Ned Stark. It’s either that Jon is Ned Stark’s son and he would NEVER act in this type of morally dubious manner, OR that if Jon were to be acting in this morally dubious manner that he is just as bad as LF. @blindestspot summed up this polarization kind of perfectly imo:

Hyperbolically speaking, either Jon is a cruel cad or he is a faithless idiot. If you step away from the hyperbole, his pragmatism or naivety might actually make him less of a righteous cookie-cutter hero and more like a flawed human being. But it’s the internet and ideas are quickly distorted into their most hyperbolic versions of themselves. If Jon isn’t wholly good, he has got to be evil. If Jon isn’t smart, he eats crayons for breakfast.

Likewise, I disagree with the idea that Ned Stark and LF are the only two applicable points of moral comparison, that just seems awfully restrictive imo. Also, both Ned Stark and LF are dead. This implies that in order to survive the game of thrones, you have to fall somewhere in between. I guess the best way I can think of to explain it is that I kind of view this theory and it’s different variations on a sliding scale… The more deliberate and manipulative the version of the theory makes Jon out to be, the less likely I think it is to happen in that manner. 

Jon is one of the heroes of the show; and not only that, he has often been used or portrayed as the Moral Compass Character. (And example being just this season when he refused to punish Ned Umber and Albs Karstark for the sins of their fathers). The show runners have never had any story line that explicitly and intentionally places Jon in the wrong or in an extremely negative light. There has been story lines where he has acted in a morally ambiguous manner (see: Ygritte and the Wildlings), but he has never done anything purposefully malicious or outright evil or immoral. Also, there has been no indication in the narrative that he is heading toward any kind of downward spiral. I just can’t see the show going the dark!Jon or evil!Jon or morally corrupt!Jon route in the final season when he has been consistently portrayed as the Knight in Shining Armor, Savior, and Hero of the story.

I am a lawyer… So my basic approach to things like speculation is to look at the evidence. Honestly, for this theory, imo the defense for both sides have created reasonable doubt.

Arguments for UCJ

Potential Evidence from Jon’s character:

Through the Wilding plot from s1-s3, the narrative has established that Jon is capable of deception. He is capable of having genuine feelings for someone while not being completely honest. 

Sansa told Jon he needed to be “smarter,” which he could have taken to heart. A plot like this, similar to the the Sansa and Arya vs. LF plot, could be part of the general theme of “I learn” and the Starks going from pawns to players.

Kit Harrington has said this about Jon Snow’s character in s7 and s8: “But this year, I think he becomes a politician… He starts manipulating people in a Jon Snow way - in a kind way, but he has a job to do.” (x) This not only confirms that Jon IS operating as apolitical actor, but could also imply that Jon has a strategic goal or purpose. However, Jon having real feelings for Dany is not necessarily at odds with him having a second agenda. The two things are not at all mutually exclusive.

Jon steadfastly maintained through out the season that he would not be bending the knee. He even went so far as to tell Dany “I am a king.” It could be difficult for people to see how he would make such a complete 180, and a seemingly needless and unnecessary one given that Dany agreed to fight the NK before he bent the knee.

Potential Evidence from the Show:

There have been story lines, like the Sansa and Arya vs. LF plot, that were dishonest on their face. The way they were portrayed was intended to mislead the audience. So D&D are capable of using this kind of plot device.

The way I see this kind of story line going, it would also essentially be a pretty significant parallel to the Jon and the Wildlings plot, where Jon had real feelings for Ygritte but the situation was complicated by duty and circumstance. However, this would mean that it’s material D&D are familiar with.

All of the finale was full of subtext about lying and lies and honor. They laid it on so thick. Thick enough, I felt, that it could imply that Jon is hiding something or that part of him is overcompensating and/or being motivated by guilt.

Arguments Against UCJ:

Potential Evidence from Jon’s character:

Obviously, Jon’s honor code and strong senses of morality and duty are huge parts of his character. It’s totally reasonable to think that he has no ulterior motives beyond forming an alliance to ensure Dany and her dragons will fight with the North.

I think that Jon knows The NK will probably have a dragon how (he has seen the NK raise people from the dead, and he knows from the wight hunt that the NK can also raise animals from the dead). He knows without the dragons, they do not stand a chance. So he is doing everything necessary to ensure the dragons are on their side.

Jon has been consistently portrayed as a Hero and Moral Compass type character. There would be no reason for them to do anything that had the potential to  turn the audience so vehemently against him in the final season.

Potential Evidence from the Show:

There have been some incredibly stupid story lines (jfc that wight hunt). It’s fair to be suspicious that a story line of this manner is beyond what D&D have the tendency to produce in terms of complex details.

There are only 6 episodes left. I have a really hard time imagining how they would pull this off in 6 episodes ON TOP OF everything else that has to happen before the series ends.

In regards to the plot device of characters using seduction and emotional manipulation as a tool, D&D have consistently been typical dude bro’s insofar as it has been largely female characters who have done so (Cersei, Margaery, Shae, Osha, ect.) It might be completely beyond them to think to have a male character utilize those techniques in such a manner.

I see valid arguments being made on both sides here to constitute a generally sufficient case for it going either way. I think that anyone who would argue “yes the is 100% going to happen” OR “no there is a 0% chance this is happening” would be willfully disregarding evidence from one side or the other. Obviously it’s natural that people will find one side or the other more persuasive, everything about speculation is subjective. But I just don’t feel like it would be possible to make any definitive statements at this point. 

All the reasons I have for thinking this could be possible or impossible have nothing to do with me shipping Jon/Sansa. They actually don’t really have anything to do with Sansa herself at all in any different way than they have to do with everyone in the North that Jon’s decision affects. I know there are some people who might not believe me when I say that, but I supposed there is nothing I can do about it. But that’s the thing about speculation: it’s always subjective, there can be arguments made for both sides. While some people may say “Jon has made promises to Dany and he wouldn’t break them and betray her,” the flip side is “in making these promises to Dany, Jon has betrayed his duty and promises he made to all of his subjects as their king whom they trust.” For every argument, there is a counter argument; for every action, there is a reaction. For every person who can’t believe Jon would betray Dany, there is another person who can’t believe Jon would betray his family. For every person who believes Jon was right to bend the knee, there is another person who can’t believe he would do it. For every person who thinks Dany deserves to rule the Seven Kingdoms, there is another person who believes the North deserves their freedom and independence.

All things considered, I do feel there could be some potential conflict in regards to Jon’s intentions and motivations. I think there are various events and ambiguities in the past and present plot, as well as in Jon’s actions and in Jon and Dany’s relationship, that support said hypothesis. My best guess is that Jon definitely has some guilt about bending the knee because he either: a) knows the north will NEVER go for it, or b) was being genuine and feels guilty for having unilaterally made such a huge decision that effects so many people, including his own family, with out their input (which he should because ffs dude come on!) .The only thing that I believe Jon has been outright dishonest about is telling Dany that the Northerners would bend the knee accept her as Queen. The North has a very deep seated rhetoric against the Targaryens. Whether it’s true or not is essentially a moot point, it’s just something that is deeply embedded in their history. In 7x02 they went out of their way to make a ~big deal~ about how “Targaryens can’t be trusted.” The North also has a historic distrust and disdain for Southern rule and the Iron Throne, going all the way back to Torrhen Stark, the king who knelt. I don’t think there is any way that Jon could reasonably believe that Dany won’t be met with opposition from the North… All the rest of it, including Jon’s feelings towards Dany, kind of falls into a gray area of words vs. actions vs. intent vs. motivations. Which makes sense, because this would be a morally gray plot; and it wouldn’t be the first time one of those was featured on Game of Thrones. 

I suspect that, like with Operation Wildling, Jon has no real escape plan or exit strategy here; I honestly don’t think that he has thought about it that much (also implying that any deliberate, premeditated manipulation or ill intent on his part would be minimal or non existent). Honestly, I think that Jon believes he is not going to survive to see the extended repercussions of and reactions to his bending the knee. I think that Jon truly believes he is going to die fighting the NK. He already showed that he was willing to die when he told Dany to leave him behind in 7x06. Like the rest of us, his he is probably wondering how in the ever loving fuck his ass has somehow managed to survive this long. (Honestly being like, “I’ll bend/pretend to bend the knee and then just die so I don’t have to face Sansa” would ABSOLUTELY be a Jon Snow thing to do.) I think Jon made what he saw as the best decision in the present, and isn’t concerned about the future or the fallout. Which, if true, could lead to a couple possible conflicts for next season:

Possibility 1- Jon dies in the BftD and Dany lives, leaving Dany to face the North and Cersei on her own.

Possibility 2- Dany dies in the BftD and Jon lives, leaving him to deal with the fallout in the North and Cersei alone.

Possibility 3- Both Jon and Dany survive the BftD and the North makes it clear that they will not accept his as queen, leaving Jon to decide who’s side he will be on. His decision then would obviously be complicated by his feelings for Dany and his loyalty to his family ect. ect.

Possibility 4- The White Walkers win and everyone dies so it doesn’t even matter!

(*Disclaimer: Obviously this list is just me speculating and is in no way comprehensive or exhaustive.)

And like Anon said, if Jon is going to be the third reason that Dany suffers, then Possible Conflict #’s 1 and 3 could definitely play into that. In #1 Dany would not only be dealing with Jon’s death, but also with the knowledge that he was dishonest to her. And in #3 if Jon ends up siding with the Starks in a potential conflict, that could possibly be a major betrayal.

I also think subjectivity comes into play big time here with regards to which parts of the story people prefer or find more compelling or are more interested in. Game of Thrones has SO MUCH going on and there are so many different lenses through which people can view it. Who are the most important characters? What is the most important plot? Who is The Hero™? Who is The Villain™? What is the ideal endgame? I would bet you pretty much anything no two people would answer all those questions the exact same way. We as an audience have been waiting 6 seasons for BOTH the Stark Restoration/Northern Independence AND the Dany Getting to Westeros plots to play out. I’ve kind of talked about it a little bit before, but for me personally (and I think for others as well), it was extremely narratively frustrating to finally get the narrative pay out from the Stark story line, only to have it be given up and taken away such a short time later. 

I also think that if Jon’s storyline is 100% completely honest, straight forward, and genuine as it stands, then like 90% of the major, climactic events of his arc will seem to have been pointless and he will have learned nothing from them. It would also seem that Jon bending the knee and unilaterally making such a huge decision for such a large number of people so easily would go against a lot of what he has supposedly learned. I’m not even saying that it was the wrong decision or that he didn’t have the authority to make it or even that it would be completely ooc. However, such a seemingly single minded action would show an alarming and annoying (imo) lack of character development… Which, again, is entirely possible. This is D&D after all.

In sum, I honestly don’t have that strong of a stance on this tbh. I guess mine is kind of like a Moderate View on the theory or like, “Undercover Jon Light.” I think some variation of it could definitely be possible and would be an interesting potential plot so I won’t rule it out completely. But I also won’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen.