#like his complexity to a lot of ppl seems to lie in how dynamic he is/his growth/his themes of redemption and atonemeny

[ilynpilled]

thank you sm! and sorry for putting u into the spotlight but i do find this read very interesting. like this does seem like a relatively common interpretation (could be because of the show). it is also an interpretation i dislike pretty intensely. i do not think jaime can be stripped of his agency like this. at 15, when he is just a boy, i do think it is primarily visceral, emotional, and “pure” love (as uncomplicated as codependent incest born out of neglect and unhealthy family dynamics can be lol), but as he grows up, is traumatised, and deteriorates i think it becomes significantly more psychologically complex. the text is repeatedly urging us to go below the surface with him and navigate him beyond his conscious (hence the dreams) and what he allows himself to confront. there is certainly a degree of arrested development, desperate attempts to recreate and sustain an idealised past/past dreams despite his cynicism, and you can extrapolate a lot of what the dynamic means for him and how it operates and why he sustains it by any and all means even before feast delves into it explicitly during its deconstruction. i do see it reduced to “love” and “sexuality” that is juxtaposed with cersei’s more complicated or selfish personal desires. sure, those two factors play a part (they do for cersei as well in different ways), but like what exactly do those things mean for him? how do they function? maybe jaime is not as narcissistic, and there is an imbalance in the relationship in terms of sacrifice, but i also do not believe that his love in this relationship is uncomplicated or selfless and entirely naive. and it is damaging to the other party.

Jaime and Cersei’s romanticized idea of being one soul in two bodies is so fascinatingly destructive. So much of their relationship is based on this notion of fundamentally refusing to accept the other as a whole. Both of them want to shove the other inside of a box of their creation that is kind of antithetical to them as people. Cersei does use Jaime and her children as extensions of herself to achieve things that society keeps from her grasp due to her gender. She locks Jaime inside this box where he functions as her sword, essentially. Then, the whole point of Jaime’s arc in ASoS is to establish that he is more than a sword, more than rituals of violence. To me, Jaime’s obsession with Cersei continuing past their childhood mainly stems from a tight clinging to the past. Following Jaime’s trauma, disillusionment, and increasing isolation due to his experience with Aerys, knighthood, and moral constructs, he views the relationship as the only concrete thing in his life and relies on it for affirmation and meaning. He also uses Cersei as a means of dissociation— filling his head with thoughts of her during the executions, “losing himself in her flesh”, hoping to prevent his nightmares through dreams of her— a way “to go away inside”. He also unconsciously never wants to move on from being that blissfully ignorant romantic boy that he was, so he desperately keeps the one thing that is constant (his twin sister - a constant from birth), and romanticizes a relationship that is not what he believes it is. He projects her onto a pedestal and obsesses over an ideal that does not exist, also putting her into the role of a perfect woman (“I thought she was The Maiden”), to turn the relationship into something pure that he can guard and revolve his life around. He puts himself in the position of a knightly protector figure to cope with his own identity crisis and the destruction of his self concept. He needs her in order to feel needed. They need each other for self-love. But, both of them also dehumanize the other in different ways, and to different extents. “You are my other half” is a twisted notion that prevents the autonomy and individualization of both parties. It treats the other as a half and not a whole. Not to mention the possible consent & communication issues it brings. “I am not whole without you.” You are, and should be. Truly dynamic of all time.

[stanfordsweater]

@aftershocked

moving this here because you’ve brought up a TON of points i’d love to dig into and the tumblr reply system is garbage--

(under the cut: much talk of possessive sam vs. possessive dean, benefits of a long-running series, ooc actions vs. consistent characterization)

“they change a lot over 15 seasons but it's consistent enough” i feel like differences and inconsistencies in episodes/writing/seasons are one of the reasons (besides personal preference) that ppl get twisted around when it comes to possessive sam and possessive dean, like it’s easy to focus on one or two things w/o taking larger patterns or predominant characteristics into account.

also it’s easy to focus on like, smth happening a few times that is in contradiction to something that happened many other times, & not want to Deal with the complexities & contradictions—but the complexities are the best part! i’ve seen you talk about it before too, the benefits of a longrunning series where we get to really watch the characters grow from young men to essentially middle-aged,

you get to actually have characters w the kind of multifaceted personalities you’d expect of, like, normal people (just way more fucked up and traumatized). so yeah, dean isn’t always straightforward in the way he’s content with keeping sam with him, and can dip into weird behavior (ESPECIALLY in the sort of parental “i make the decisions around here” sense)—

but his general preference, his base character, does not lean towards possessiveness at all. versus sam, who SEEMS like he’d be more grounded and chill, but is actually the crazy jealous guy. that kind of irony, those kind of subversions, are what make them enjoyable as characters and contribute to why possessive sam is so much fun to explore,

bc you Wouldn’t think he’d be the one who’s jealous enough that even when dean gives sam so much of himself already, sam still wants more. you’d look at him and expect him to be the brother capable of letting go, of being halfway normal, instead of like, sam’s built so much on seeking dean’s approval and lived his life at the center of dean’s universe,

so he’ll reject anything that threatens to change that dynamic. like the contradictions are weird and spicy and i like them a lot and god i love sam’s reactions to benny so much. i’d feel bad bc i really like benny & he deserved better, but it’s too much fun to see how much sam of all people unreasonably, irrationally, illogically hates the guy,

just because he represents someone dean might, might, might possibly actually like more than sam (even though we, the viewers, know that’s impossible). beautiful

--

yes, you’ve hit on so many great points here! firstly, the inconsistencies in characterization: i think it’s very easy to see why people get annoyed by the writing, and i do think it’s occasionally justified; however, i’ve always found it a lot more rewarding to think about it as the same kind of inconsistencies that real people have! sam and dean might make “ooc” decisions and it’s okay because real people do that too, out of anger, resentment, sadness, trauma... it makes sense, to me, that they aren’t the same people they were fifteen years ago. getting stuck in one ‘mode’ of characterization is damaging to an overall reading of the show, but at the same time it’s okay to latch onto one era if that’s what you enjoy. it only bothers me when people take characterization from one era (for example, dean’s ptsd, anger, and jealousy over amelia) and apply it to every version of that character.

dean’s parental sense of possession over sam is one thing i do agree with wrt the possessive dean takes, and i think they’re more memorable for a lot of people because they’re not what you usually see from a family show-- it’s weird for dean to feel that way, and i don’t know if i’ve ever seen that intersection of parental ownership and romantic partner jealousy. it’s important that this comes out when dean is under pressure, not all the time-- AND it’s essential that sam does not cave to this. it gets iffy during dabb era, but i still don’t see sam immediately caving to dean’s demands. a good example is the scene where dean holds a gun to sam in season 15, which i see fairly often as an example of dean demanding obedience from sam... but sam doesn’t cave! and sam doesn’t even flinch, because he’s used to having guns pointed at him, and he knows that no version of dean could ever kill him. dean knows this too, and dean is the one who caves, as per usual. this is only not the case a few times in canon, like season 4, parts of season 7, and season 9, all for different reasons i won’t get into now. it’s remarkable when dean doesn’t go along with what sam asks, which is why it sticks in people’s memories, imo. dean is very loud with what he wants and what he thinks is best, but if sam disagrees he will argue dean around to his point, or he’ll go behind dean’s back to do it anyway (case in point, season 11 with the cage.)

anyway-- “the complexities are the best part!” and “you get to actually have characters w the kind of multifaceted personalities you’d expect of, like, normal people (just way more fucked up and traumatized). so yeah, dean isn’t always straightforward...” TOTALLY AGREE. i love the times when the brothers are making decisions that fandom disagrees with, because it’s interesting. the show is here to provide a compelling story. i’m not going to lie and say i always agree with that story or those choices, but it’s fun for me to try to get into why a character would make that decision, not just rail against it. i like the dudes we have in canon! they’re fun!

this is why possessive sam slaps for me. what you said here-- “sam, who SEEMS like he’d be more grounded and chill, but is actually the crazy jealous guy. that kind of irony, those kind of subversions, are what make them enjoyable as characters and contribute to why possessive sam is so much fun to explore” yes yes yes. 100%. and we see these subversions right from season one! it’s not new that dean isn’t actually the uber-confident womanizing asshole, but if you aren’t paying attention it can sneak up on you, i guess? and sam, who comes across as the level-headed one in common archetypes, the soft-spoken college boy, crashes the impala into a building. in the first episode. and in route 666, he  follows a crazy instinct that is proven correct and saves their lives (because he’s intelligent!) but toys with the chance that it could have failed and killed dean (because he’s reckless!)

the fact that we have all these examples of the ways the brothers fail to fulfill the tropes they would in a less-interesting tv show means that possessive sam makes so much sense. sam is built up as the independent brother, the one who left home, the rebellious one, but he loves his family and he needs dean. he needs him. “sam’s built so much on seeking dean’s approval and lived his life at the center of dean’s universe...” i love the way you put this. sam has had dean’s attention and protection for most of his life, and hell if he’s giving it up now for some two-bit vampire, lol. sam is independent, but like with everything else, dean is the exception. sam’s desperation for dean’s approval and attention is absolutely hilarious in the benny situation, because, like you’ve said before, benny is the least-threatening dude ever. he’s so nice. and the fact that sam won’t rest until he dies is-- well, i’m being a little uncharitable, i don’t think sam wanted benny to die, but he sure didn’t shed any tears over it.

the contradictions are delicious. i do think some of it is that dean gets his friendships fulfilled outside of sam, so sam is in a category all his own, while sam doesn’t have as many relationships as dean does so dean is fills all of his categories. but then again, that isn’t always true. it shifts over the seasons and even through episodes. broad trends!

[roominthecastle]

Your GSR posts are making me wanna do weird things. Like cuddling. Or confessing I used to love that CSI spinoff… yes, THAT one. Idk what was wrong with teenage me. *comparing my formative years with yours* It’s a miracle I even cross path with you lol. And I had no idea they’re having so much fun in Vegas! Should I watch the show? I’m still in Lizzington hell and I’m afraid of what GSR might do to me…

Anon… this fabulous mess of a message made my week, thank you! now let me repay you in kind with a mess of a reply behind a cut:

I, too, feel a lot of odd things as a result of this CSI trip I’m on rn. Should you watch it? Of course. I will never not recommend this show. Everybody who reached out to me in the past few days is scared of the ep # but worry not, guys. It’s great for sporadic watching, the eps are pretty self-contained and interesting puzzles of science and human nature w/ the best/worst puns ever, and you don’t have to eat it all up in one go.

While - imo - ships can’t really act as replacements of each other, I think GSR can offer some “shelter” for people tired of the insulting triteness being peddled on TBL. It def hints at what Lizzington might have looked like if the creative control at TBL weren’t in the hands of a bunch of manchildren who have 0 clue how to write complex dynamics and seem to think romance is about beating the shit out of each other, then bone and get married bc only bitches hold grudges for being lied to, cheated on, exploited, and gaslighted. Good ppl know those are actually signs of a person learning to love you and you should reward that behavior to support their alleged personal growth at your expense. And if those vile acts are not part of the relationship, if genuine care/interest independent of sex is shown, that can only mean the characters are secretly related but still lie about it for no reason whatsoever and cause pointless pain and suffering. This is the blueprint for relationships on that show and to call it embarrassing is an understatement.

Sara was originally brought in as Griss’ love interest, but that lousy 1D label was soon discarded and they developed her into an independent, intelligent character w/ her own set of demons to battle, which she did consistently and unapologetically. It lead her to some very dark but necessary pit stops, she was sometimes downright abrasive and difficult, but her desperation never felt pathetic, only deeply human and Griss responded to that. Granted, I’m still in the middle of the rewatch and have several blanks to fill, but I honestly can’t remember a time she was short-changed to serve an idiotic fuckboy plot or be a prop in Griss’ own arc, or have any kind of manufactured drama for drama’s sake. This is prob one reason why they struggled so much since neither character was torpedoed to fast-track some flashy-but-empty drama, and there was no need to manufacture problems when staying true to characterization provided all the organic angst fodder necessary to propel the characters forward. Sara carried the torch for Griss until her arm almost fell off, but it didn’t prevent her from whacking him with it when his behavior got hurtful and unacceptable. It didn’t prevent her from walking away when she needed to, either. And Griss had his own deep seated issues to work through, which he was eventually willing to do on his own instead of expecting Sara to put up with them. That is character growth. Stuff like that wasn’t brushed aside by Sara going “aww it’s okay, honey, you never did anything wrong ever and my obscenely tolerant love will wash away all our problems which we never actually address.” GSR is, imo, a pretty accurate, mature portrayal of 2 dysfunctional people falling in love and trying/learning to make it work w/o losing themselves in the process.

The “lab dynamics” are also v curious bc Griss - despite him trying to repeatedly escape the “assignment” - is the “awkward dad” of the team, and several ppl consider him a father figure (he struggles with this a lot but when he finally embraces it, it culminates in at least three of those scenes that triggered the waterworks for me like whoa). Cat is his “work wife” but they also have some bro-sis vibes going on. Brass is like the cool uncle, the brother Griss never had who also looks out for Sara. And so on, and so forth. So there is a complex pseudo-family here, but what the CSI writing team “discovered” is that you can have a meaningful family theme going w/o it taboo-ing a romance within the unit or rendering it automatically pathological or acting like age automatically assigns you a specific role. Many from Sara’s peer group in the lab looked at Griss as a father figure and were mentored by him. Sara was among those mentored yet she looked at him differently. It’s that simple and their relationship still made for a complex story w/o any convoluted plot padding, father figure detour, or baiting or some other form of annoying shadow puppetry.

In short, I think GSR can be the air you come up for after being submerged in that giant nonsensical mess Red/Liz is being turned into for the sake of “shocking” twists and “organic” developments. It can only help you, anon, so don’t be afraid of it. ;)

[brydeswhale]

I feel like the fact that she lives in a pre-industrial society where they don’t have antibiotics(pls let someone discover antibiotics in ASOIAF) makes this understandable. It’s not really excusable, but there’s a reason for these kinds of cultural things.

Like, ppl being separated from their society bc of disease often seems cruel to us now. But a communicable disease like that would probably terrify the Middle Ages. While they did see ppl with Hansen’s Disease as holy, to a certain extent, they also didn’t want to catch it.

Greyscale is a pretty obvious Hansen’s Disease stand in(on steroids) and ppl can live with it for a long ass time, but it’s clearly painful and debilitating. While it’s also hard catch, easy cure, that was NOT the case until recently.

How would Val know the difference between a kid who was simply disfigured by the disease and someone who was living with an active, communicable illness? Someone who might be in pain or suffering?

Then there’s the fact that people beyond the wall wouldn’t have the resources to care for someone with that level of illness and they simply wouldn’t survive on their own.

When a person can wipe out an entire community simply by existing, but can’t live on their own without help, the community would very likely make the choice to euthanize an individual in that scenario. They might see Stannis forcing his child to live with this disease as more barbaric than we see killing her.

The obvious solution to us(seek help from outside), btw, is simply not available to the Free Folk. They have a small population, and they’re barred from accessing both the greater Westerosi society AND the rest of the world by both the Wall and a lack of resources.

Furthermore, given that the cost to the Free Folk for accessing what few resources would be available to them in Westeros is the loss of their autonomy and submission to a political system they find morally abhorrent. I’m not going to do that for the sake of a rare disease that’s considered incurable by the people in the rest of the world, anyhow.

I think there are a few problems with how the readers perceive what Val says.

First off GRRM’s failure to truly convey a complex society in the Wildlings. We get a few quick glimpses, but very few actual viewpoints or deep dives. This is a problem GRRM has with most non-Westerosi cultures, a failure to convey a living, dynamic society with many different shades.

Secondly, the failure to provide Val with enough depth that people will take into account her life experience and how that would differ from both ours and Jon’s. I mean, let’s be real, it’s not Val Hate Summer for nothing. In a lot of ways, she fails to convey much beyond “hot chick, blonde”.

Thirdly, there’s also a problem with the readers.

Most of us, let’s be honest, have a problem with this not just because it’s horrifying, but also because we’re actively not trying to think about Val’s life experience or how her society might have come to this conclusion re: greyscale.

This is kind of a problem when you consider how many white, male characters with about as flimsy a characterization are given full, fleshed out, adoring fandoms based around them. Dickon had a very bright moment in the spot light, for example, despite his resemblance to a cement block(Pls do not lie and tell me he is hot. That joke wasn’t funny in 2018 and it’s not funny now) and his failure to convey much beyond “I love you, daddy, even tho you’re an abusive shit”.

So how much of this is actually about Val, GRRM’s real problem with writing women and non-Westerosi cultures, and how much of it is us?

Like, yeah, that was a shitty thing to say, but no one is also saying that Ned is an asshole because he fails to protect a 9 year old boy from being murdered because it wouldn’t be politically convenient(RIP Mycah), or that he sucks because he thinks it’s okay to straight up murder someone with diminished capacity(RIP Gared), or that his compliance with a society that sentences boys as young as TWELVE to life imprisonment in a subarctic penal colony for the crime of shoplifting makes him a bad person(RIP multiple little children who passed through the North, sorry about how your entire society failed you).

Hell, most people don’t even give him shit for straight up endangering his daughter so he could play Brother Cadfael in King’s Landing, or for murdering her Wolf avatar.

I mean, just saying.

And also I don’t think Bran is a fair comparison here. His injuries came from a fall, not from a communicable disease that’s very likely to be a bacterial infection that causes people to eventually become speed zombies with rock skin.

Do we need to remind people that Val wanted Sheeren dead? Like Omg she is such good girlfriend material to Jon cuz she is just like the aunty!1!1