#like fuck Agamemnon as well but fuck Achilles

[ilions-end]

so euripides' hecuba (david kovacs translation) was wilder than i thought it'd be

immediate thoughtssss:

i'm pretty familiar with the sacrifice of polyxena through other sources by now, although this is the first time i've seen her, you know, speak and try to wield whatever small amount of agency she is allowed in her own death. VERY strong iphigenia in aulis parallels. really chewing on the "the trojan war begins and ends with the ritual sacrifice of a young girl" concept

this IS the first time i've gotten to polydorus' whole deal beyond very brief summaries (and similar but different fate in the aeneid). i'll admit i'm a dumbass so i got really confused about the timeframes and the geography. the entirety of the greek army is (somewhere!) in THRACE but not at TROY anymore, but achilles' TOMB is within walking distance? and i assumed polymestor was supposed to be further away but he's right there in this temporary camp and... idk, confusion.

also i rarely mix up greek names but the fact that polydorus was murdered by polymestor. i keep tripping up, sorry

it's interesting that we learn agamemnon argued NOT to kill polyxena, and odysseus got everyone convinced anyway. between this and aulis and trojan women: odysseus just LOVES lobbying for the murder of women and children

SPEAKING OF odysseus, his interactions with hecuba in this were so different than what i'd imagined! for one, there is no clear indicator that hecuba is HIS slave. i for sure thought that'd be a major thing in this.

secondly, in this version HECUBA SAVED HIM THAT TIME HE CAME TO SPY IN TROY AS A BEGGAR? he supplicated her, she got him safely out of troy... ooh you're a WILY one euripides!

ESPECIALLY WHEN odysseus, Mister Hiketeia himself, PHYSICALLY BLOCKS polyxena from supplicating him so he won't be obligated to help her. CHRIST, man!!!

augh athenian odysseus, you are such a genuinely awful man and i need to dissect you with pins and study your insides

when hecuba begs to be sacrificed in polyxena's stead (because she's right! the greeks actually have a REASON to want her dead, as hector and paris' mother), and odysseus argues like, well WHAT would it look like if they'd treated achilles with respect in life but not in death? and i could FEEL ajax reaching out ghostly fingers to odysseus in that moment because he experienced the opposite (odysseus' enemy in life, then respected in death) and WHERE did that get him? just. mm. thoughts.

hecuba knows odysseus is also a parent........ it still doesn't help

RETURN OF TALTHYBIUS! a weeping, sympathetic agent of violence and outrage. he's so interesting to me. is he largely an invention of euripides i wonder? i should look more into talthybius

i understand the need to make polyxena's death as noble as possible, but it did weird me out when talthybius assured hecuba that even as polyxena fell to the ground with a slit throat, she carefully minded her skirt so she wouldn't expose herself in her death throes

POSSIBLY the most sympathetic-acting agamemnon i've come across in these plays? even if all his sympathies and concern for hecuba is implied to be because she is a kind of pseudo-mother-in-law now that he "cares about" cassandra so much... which is, you know, it's own kind of fucked up. euripides absolutely downplays the non-consensuality of that relationship so agamemnon can serve as an agent of justice

okay, it is kind of delicious when agamemnon is like "a WOMAN kill a MAN??? PSSH as if that could ever happen". sir. sir.

how old are polymestor's children meant to be? they're young enough to be "passed between" the enslaved women but polymestor brings them to a soldier camp

if i had a nickel for every time someone had their eyes stabbed out with brooch pins in ancient greek tragedy i'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but--

i like the visual of polymestor "crawling like a beast" though. fuck you polymestor

and then there's the FAKEST trial because agamemnon pretends to be impartial? THAT was a twist

i couldn't supress a disbelieving chuckle when polymestor's like "oh by the way i have these incredibly specific prophecies given to me by dionysus at an unspecified earlier time. yeah so hecuba you're gonna turn into a dog in just a little while. and agamemnon, just so you know, clytemnestra's gonna kill you and cassandra as soon as you get home"

and of course agamemnon doesn't believe him but i have to wonder as he's getting chopped up later he's like "huh. why does this seem so familiar"

i don't know, man. this play was no trojan women.

[psy--conic]

Reading the Iliad, Book 18 thoughts

This is my first time ever reading it and I know next to nothing abt greek mythology so if I interpret anything wrong by all means pls correct me

Im reading the Robert Fagles translation

I think Achilles is officially about to enter his crash out era and honestly......hell yeah

I thought the whole "The best of the Myrmidons" thing was gonna be something that was just made up in the song of Achilles but Patroclus being the best of the Myrmidons is cannon I can die happy

Anway Antilochus reaches Achilles, who is running over the reasons why Patroclus is not back and he is basically like "I hope he's not dead."

😀

Antilochus tells him that Patroclus is fucking dead.

Achilles falls to his knees and starts screaming bloody murder

Um I think he pours dirt over himself?

Mans is ripping his hair out, the whole nine yards

This attracts the attention of the enslaved women nearby and they start crying and shit too.

Please stand up ladies don't mourn for any of those men

Antiochus is crying. EVERYONE IS THROWING A FUCKING FIT

The collective sobbing grabs the attention of Achiles' mother, Thetis, and hearing her son in so much pain causes her to start crying as well.

And then all of her damn sisters start crying too

She comes up from the seabed to ask Achilles what wrong with him

Achilles tells his mother that there is no joy in living anymore since Patroclus is gone. He laments that he loved Patroclus more than anyone and that he's lost the will to live.

But before any of that, Achilles says he must kill Hector

Thetis tells him that in killing Hector he will end up killing himself and Achilles goes "Then let me die at once."

Then somewhere down the line, Achilles is talking abt his whole thing with Agamemnon and he says "Let bygones be bygones."

LMAO now you say that?😭

But there's a problem. Achilles doesn't have any armor to go into battle with. His mother tells him to just chill for a moment, she'll get him some new armor, and to not even think about going into battle until Achilles sees her return with his own eyes and then she leaves.

Menelaus and Meriones are still hauling ass back to camp with Pat's body while Hector is hot on their damn heels

But both Ajax's are shutting that shit down

Iris speeds down to Achilles and she's like "Hey, Hector is really trying to fuck up ur friend's body so at least show your face to let them know you still exist."

Achilles does that while letting out a war cry and the Trojans kinda start shitting their pants.

So they turn tail and start running back to Troy

Now everyone is back in their respective camps

Hector and a bunch of other ppl start planning what tf to do next.

Polydamas goes "Ok guys Achilles is back and that's really scary so we probably should pull back to Troy and recoup before we do anything."

Lmao Hector is so funny to me for what he does next. He gets angry at Polydamas for even suggesting something like that and he says "Arent you sick of being caged behind those walls?"

HECTOR WHAT BRO? YOU'RE ALWAYS THE MAIN ONE BEHIND THE WALLS OF TROY.

Every time shit doesn't go as planned the VERY NEXT paragraph is about how Hector is back on the wall and needs a god to tell him to get the fuck back out there.

I love him but what is he talking about rn😭

So Hector and the rest stay put.

The Greeks are fixing up Patroclus's body for his funeral. Homer tells us that Achilles has to sacrifice 12 Trojan youths to show how upset he is???

Like where the hell is he going to find 12 boys to just kill?

But Patroclus cant be burned until Hector is dead

Cut to Zeus and Hera talking about something, it's not really important

Cut to Hepaestus, he gets into the whole story abt being thrown from Mt. Olympus. But now he says It was Hera who threw him and not Zeus as we are told in an earlier book.

Ig Homer can't keep his shit straight?

Anyway, Thetis is the one who helped him when he landed on the ground.

Thetis meets up with Hephaestus and says "Please make my son armor."

"Okay, You should visit us more by the way, me and my wife love you" - Hephaestus♥️🧍🏾‍♂️

Anyway, Thetis is the one who helped him when he landed on the ground.

So we get into this whole scene of Hephaestus. It's really pretty and ornate.

He finishes making the rest of the armor and lays it at Thetis's feet.

She takes it and gives it to Achilles, and that's where we leave off

[masterofthewarcry]

no, no you don't GET IT. okay - so he's only a little kid when his dad goes off to war and dies, right? he doesn't know his dad. all he knows is that his dad was a great warrior favored by athena, and that he has to avenge him (IMAGINE a little kid sitting by his mother's feet while she spins wool telling him he has to avenge his father some day, imagine it). so he grows up a little, following in his father's footsteps to become a great warrior, and then BAM he gets thrown into full blown WAR at fourteen. it's epigoni time people. he's the youngest there, this is the first time he's ever experienced real battle, and its in THEBES where his dad (who's ghost has been haunting him the whole time) DIED. anywhere he steps on the battlefield could be the very spot where his dad died. but he makes it through. they take the city, sack it, go home.

and that in itself is enough to make a man a legend, right? but almost as soon as he gets home, there's trouble in calydonia (where his grandfather is supposed to rule, but he gets usurped by an uncle or cousin or something). so he fucks off to calydonia to sort that out and ends up having to fight in ANOTHER huge battle to reinstate his grandfather as the king. but again, he pulls through, makes it out alive and goes home.

he gets married to aegialia, who's significantly older than him and who he doesn't know all that well just in time for adrastus (the king of argos and one of the original seven against thebes) to kick it. now, i'm not saying that adrastus was something of a father figure to him, but i think it makes sense narratively. so adrastus kicks it, and he inherits the city of argos, again being very young and not knowing much about ruling. he doesn't really get a chance to learn though because BAM it's trojan war time baby!!

so he gets together all the able-bodied argives (which is a LOT, like he's bringing a significant portion of the greek force) and they sail to aulis to meet up with the rest of the gang. sthenelus and euryalus (two of his buddies from the epigoni days) come with him - i like to think that they're like older brothers to him; sources he can look to for advice and support. ANYWAYS everybody gets to aulis, he goes to meet the rest of the kings and as soon as he introduces himself, everyone's talking about his father.

but its fine - even though he's proven himself to be a more capable warrior than his father was already. hes not here to cause a scene (no, they have achilles for that - but they dont have him yet so hold that thought), hes here to do a job. and do a job he will, because someone has to go fetch achilles from hiding! better send the young guy who MIGHT be able to hold his own against the strongest warrior in the world if he decides to fight back. and odysseus, of course.

they couldn't be more different, he and odysseus. odysseus is older, he's not been in a battle like this before, he has a son, he's generally regarded as a good king. whereas all he's ever known is war, he barely knows his own wife (DEFINITELY not enough to have a son), and he knows next to nothing about being a king. yet they hit it off. odysseus is charismatic and funny and he's ENRAPTURED by the way he talks about ithaca. he's never known anything like that. argos is home, sure, but ithaca is EVERYTHING to odysseus.

they collect achilles, with some trickery, and the real trojan war starts going. ILIAD TIME it's been nine years. he and odysseus are buddy buddy now (athena boys in business fr), achilles is on the fritz throwing a temper tantrum (NOT in a useful way on the battlefield). agamemnon is talking about giving up. menelaus ALMOST got paris's ass but aphrodite spirited him away. he and odysseus are holding this operation together. he's putting all this previous war experience to good use absolutely KILLING IT on the battlefield. he's going after aeneas, and then aphrodite, and then ARES the GOD OF WAR HIMSELF. achilles has NOTHING on him at this point. but the whole army is still praying for achilles return.

but it's fine - even though he's single handedly running the show at this point. he gets shot through the foot by paris and odysseus pulls it out because THEY WATCH EACH OTHERS BACKS, they look after each other. NIGHT RAID TIME, he and odysseus hit the town (and by hit the town i mean kill ~14 men under the cover of darkness and steal their horses), common athena boys W. they wash all the blood of themselves in the sea together afterwards, classic bro activities. he's feeding himself with odysseus's stories at this point because the way he talks about ithaca really does make it sound like something worth fighting for.

achilles comes back- OOPS, we thought it was achilles but its NOT its patroclus in his armor and now hes DEAD. achilles comes back for real, and now HECTOR is dead. who's that up on the walls of troy with a bow is that-? BAM, achilles dead, shot by paris. things are looking bleak and good at the same time. the palladium needs to be stolen so they can sack troy? easy money. NIGHT RAID PART 2, stealing the palladium time. easy money until odysseus decides to try and stab him in the back. he's devastated - his closest friend, caught up in the idea of having all the glory for himself. they've switched positions, now he is the one who wants nothing to do with this war, and odysseus is the glory-hungry king. heartbreaking.

TROJAN HORSE, the time is finally ripe to sack troy. everyone's behaving badly, people are getting raped on temple steps, it's a mess. odysseus throws a baby off the walls of troy. he's one of the only ones who doesn't get caught up in it because he's tired. he's tired of war and he wants to go home, even though argos is nothing like the home he's built in his head. there is no wife and son to return to. he knows nothing about being king. the rocky coasts of ithaca do not await him.

troy burns. the war is over, the ships are loaded with spoils, he sets sail for home. he arrives to find that sthenelus's SON, his BROTHER's SON has been fucking his wife and usurped his throne. and for a minute, it looks like he's about to go to war again, but he's tired. he's tired and it's his best friend's son, and it's a woman he never really got to know or care about and it's a throne he never asked for. so he just leaves. he takes his spoils, gets back on a boat and leaves. for ithaca.

he doesn't know how odysseus is going to react when he shows up. but, as it turns out, he didn't have to worry about that because odysseus isn't there. but penelope is. wise, patient penelope who listens to him talk about the war at troy and odysseus and how he's so tired. penelope who says, stay.

so he stays. and he waits for odysseus. and he learns things that aren't war. he learns what it feels like to carry a little boy on his shoulders. he learns what it feels like to have dirt under his nails and a sore back after a long day's work at the plow. he listens to penelope talk about odysseus, and shares his own stories too. he learns that he likes penelope, a lot.

enough that when the suitors start pouring in, he fends them off as best he can. he won't marry her - he won't do that to odysseus, but he will help her unravel the funeral shroud she's weaving each night. he will hold her while she cries for her husband who is likely dead at the bottom of the sea. he will start teaching telemachus his way around the blade when he asks.

and when odysseus does return home? he almost gets stabbed. odysseus is FURIOUS that someone he TRUSTED would come to court his wife, but that's not what happened at all, he's been protecting her the best he can. teaching his son to do the same. he's been waiting for odysseus with them. it's a teary reunion, of course, and then it's a bloodbath and then all the suitors are dead. he washes the blood out from underneath his nails for the last time.

see? do you see? it's about being HAUNTED by the legacy of a man you didn't even know, and it's about EXPECTATIONS and it's about figuring out what YOU want instead of what you're 'supposed' to want, and it's about GROWING past being a warrior and learning to be a PERSON, and it's about LOVING someone in a way that's beyond platonic or romantic. do you get it now? do you get it?

[siingomuse]

See, I like Achilles. I think his love story with Patroclus is absolutely beautiful, and I agree he had some amazing moments. But does that mean I excuse what he did? Gods no, of course not. He was definitely a bad person. I mean- killing Troilus in his fathers temple? What the fuck, man? That's messed up. (There are some versions where he rapes Troilus, but I like to ignore those ones.) But was he that bad? Yes- during the Trojan war, that is. But he was a young man gone to war too soon- he was 17 when it started. But before that? No. He was trying to avoid the war, and then when he went to the war, well, he had to be bad. And he was. He was like, really bad. He had pride, but not hubris. I mean, that's what caused the death of Patroclus. Refusing to fight because Agamemnon hurt his pride, and then Patrocus donned his armour, blah blah blah Hector killed Patroclus, blah blah Achilles got really mad. So yeah. I like Achilles- but he's a stupid, prideful guy and his actions led to the death of multiple people, INCLUDING his boyfriend. Not the smartest or best guy, clearly.

[babyrdie]

Okay, I have something to confess… none of the deaths in The Iliad were sad for me. Aside from the amount of randoms dying, let's consider Patroclus and Hector here because I honestly don't remember the rest.

Patroclus: I genuinely couldn't be sad. Sure, I was sad about the characters' reactions to Patroclus' death (for example, Antilochus running and crying and Achilles' depressive episode), but not about his final battle itself. I'm sorry, guys, but it was funny to read him about to die being petty and saying to Hector something like "you idiot, you only killed me because Zeus and Apollo helped you. Face me alone and I'll kill you! I'll kill you multiple times! Anyway, Achilles is going to kick your ass hahahahahaha he's going to kick your ass SO MUCH". Like, dude, you're DYING. What's YOUR problem, you looked your KILLER in the face and said "actually ☝️ I can kill you". And okay, even if we think it's true that two gods helped Hector… MAN, WHAT KIND OF MIND DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE TO DECIDE THAT YOUR LAST WORDS ARE GOING TO BE ACCUSING YOUR KILLER OF BEING WEAKER THAN YOU. If I were Hector I would respond something like "man, fuck you, you're dying!!!"

Hector: I also couldn't be sad about the death itself. It was sad to see Priam begging, Andromache talking about being enslaved, etc. But the moment of the battle? Sorry, the battle was hilarious. In Book 16, Patroclus was there spitting blood and dying while still using his last breath to be like "I didn't lose, YOU will lose" to Hector (man that was petty) and Hector was like "Achilles? He's not going to kick my ass, I AM going to kick his ass". And then he goes and prepares to fight Achilles alone, despite his understandably worried parents, because he needs to defend the city and it's a touching moment and you understand Hector's decision, but you still feel like it's suicidal, but hey…he seems confident. And you think that this is where the typical epic fight will happen, especially since he responded to Patroclus' threat by insinuating that he would defeat Achilles. But no, he sees Achilles approaching with a murderous aura around him and decides that he's going to run. And he DOESN'T stop. They run around the walls of Troy while the Trojans watch…what is this, a stadium where you watch the action from above? And then you're like "man, how long are they going to run?" and apparently Athena thought so too because she goes and tricks Hector into stopping running. And then you think okay, now it's the epic fight. But no, they're throwing spears at each other and exchanging harsh words while Athena shows her favoritism by helping Achilles. And then Hector is dying and he's like "Paris and Apollo are gonna kill you!!!!" and Achilles is like "bitch, look at my face and tell me if I look like someone who wants to live."

And as an honorable mention, we have two other funny no-death-all-teasing moments!

One of them is Achilles running after Apollo. Bitch, I know you're mad, but that's a GOD. Hurting a god is already a rare feat, do you really think you're going to be able to kill him or something? You got your ass kicked by Scamandrius despiste your confidence (another hilarious scene, actually), man, Apollo isn't on your level. I KNOW YOU'RE MENTALLY UNSTABLE IN THIS SCENE, BUT MAN. Apollo actually taunting Achilles is also hilarious. He is a god that's thousands of years old and he's arguing with this guy who can't even be 30 years-old. This guy who, like, Apollo's stepmother (Hera) acts like he's just Thetis' baby (Hera defending Achilles be like: well, he was suckled on the divine breasts of Thetis! Thetis, a goddess! Goddess that I raised!!!). Like, man, I know you want to kill him, just kill him. No need to trade taunts like you're in the same position or something. My theory is that Apollo was in a bit of an Book 1 Achilles situation. Achilles wanted to kill Agamemnon, but Athena stopped him, so the only option left was to curse him. Apollo wants to kill Achilles, but fate exists and it's not Achilles' time to die. So okay, he'll do the second best thing: provoke him. Like, it is SO personal lol

The other moment is Aeneas. Apollo encouraging Aeneas to fight Achilles because his mother is Aphrodite and Achilles' mother is Thetis, and since Aphrodite is more powerful than Thetis, surely Aeneas is stronger than Achilles, right? Aeneas then goes on and gives Achilles a huge speech. He goes on and on about how his mother is Aphrodite, about how he won't be intimidated, about how he won't be just another one... then Achilles kicks his ass SO hard that Poseidon has to step in and take Aeneas away. And Achilles cares SO MUCH about Aeneas that he's like "oh, a god helped you. Okay then" and goes back to fighting. And let's face it, if Achilles had any interest in Aeneas, he wouldn't care that the gods want Aeneas alive. He literally commits sacrilege with Hector's and tries to go after Apollo, he just didn't go after Aeneas because he apparently doesn't care enough about him. Man, Aeneas, that was humiliating. All that confident speech for that.

I'm seeing a pattern here, actually:

Patroclus "I could kill you!!!" to Hector while being killed by Hector. Okay, man…but dead people don't fight! At least you can brag that you beat Sarpedon if you care so much about proving your skills even while you're dying, I guess.

Hector "hahaha I'll kick Achilles' ass, that threat doesn't affect me!" to Patroclus and then running after seeing Achilles. Running for his entire life if it weren't for Athena. Is this the swift-footed Hector we see running for the third time?????

Achilles "I'm the best of the Greeks! I'm the peak! I'm THE MAN" to Scamandrius and then having to desperately be saved. Dude was defeated by SCAMANDRIUS and thought he could chase APOLLO. GUY IS THE SON OF A NEREID AND ALMOST DIED IN THE WATER.

Aeneas "my mother is Aphrodite, your mother is Thetis. I'm the chad, you're the virgin. That's how we are, you understand?" and then having to desperately be saved. It's even funnier when you think about how he was like "well, his mom is Thetis and she is a Nereid, not a Olympian…" BITCH DIOMEDES ISN'T EVEN A DEMIGOD AND YOU WOULD DIE IF IT WEREN'T FOR APHRODITE. HOW THE HELL DID YOU THINK YOUR MOTHER BEING APHRODITE WOULD MAKE YOU STRONGER THAN ACHILLES IF YOU WERE NOT STRONGER THAN A GUY WHO IS NOT EVEN A DEMIGOD.

But well, Hector, Patroclus and Achilles are all characters I adore. Aeneas I don't have a strong opinion of, truth be told (no, I haven't read The Aeneid). And yes, this post is completely immature. I've made many posts giving serious opinions, let me be honest about how I felt in these scenes even if they weren't written to be funny.

[anotheroceanid]

Achiles: Fuck, what happened to Odysseus' skin?

Patroclus: He had an affair with the Athenide and sired a child on her

Achiles: Wasn't she a maiden goddess? So she cursed him for taking her virginity?

Patroclus: Yes, but she wasn't one that swore to be an eternal maiden like her mother. No, she didn't curse him, the two of them get along quite well

Achiles: So why does Odysseus look like that and why does that have to do with Athenide?

Patroclus: He looks like that because the god of the sun apparently has a grudge against lovers of the Athenide

Achilles: And what the Athenide thinks of that?

Patroclus: she thinks Odysseus just passed off another god, she's a bit dense about some things.

Agamemnon: WE COULD BE WINNING THIS WAR IN A DAY BUT HE REFUSES TO SLEEP WITH HER AGAIN AAAAAA

[johaerys-writes]

i’d be super curious to hear your thoughts of the characterisation of achilles in the iliad! because while he is considered honourable and respected by the standards of the culture, surely by modern day standards he wouldn’t be so much? which is why i think that MM did such a great job, because she basically modernised him so that we would see him in the same ways that the greeks did re: his nobility versus his arrogance, but i thought the general consensus on achilles is that he’s an ancient greek hero which equals Not A Good Guy by our standards (but my formal education in classics is limited, i mostly partake as a hobby, so i’m always looking to expand my understandings and opinions and you’re obviously a very intelligent and considered person)

So I think the most important thing anyone needs to do when engaging with ancient greek works (and indeed any sort of work, especially those created millennia ago) is to keep an open mind. Importing modern moral judgement is anachronistic when it comes to the Iliad; hubris, as we understand it now, simply does not exist in the Iliad, there are no Good Guys vs Bad Guys, there are no Heroes or Villains. Those notions came much later and are very much a Christian thing. A hero in the Homeric world has no moral implication; he is simply a warrior. A dude that does things, and not necessarily admirable things. So it would be pointless to try to view Achilles or Hector or Agamemnon (or even the gods in the Iliad who do some pretty fucked up shit) as good or bad guys, because such a thing is irrelevant in the Iliad.

That being said, I feel like Achilles is portrayed generally positively both in the Iliad and also in other ancient Greek works. He is noble, that is, he is of noble/divine lineage, he is well-spoken, well-educated, generally reasonable and polite with pretty much everyone, except for Agamemnon in that opening scene in the Iliad (who was a dick to him as well). He is also honourable and with a very rigid moral code: in the Iliad it is stated many times that he prefers to ransom back captives instead of kill them, and he even lets the body of one of the Trojans he slew be burned with his armour on as a sign of respect, even though it is a thing of great importance in the Iliad to claim the armour of the people one slew. He is not greedy and doesn't flaunt his wealth, he is generous with his Myrmidons and is generally rather well-liked. Until Patroclus is killed and he goes on his rampage, he is a pretty chill dude; and then after Hector is killed, he organises the funeral games for Patroclus where he is shown to be very diplomatic and reasonable, even with Agamemnon; and then when Priam goes to ask him for Hector's body back, Achilles treats him with respect and the two men bond over their grief. So like, idk about you but those don't seem like the actions of someone crazed or extremely arrogant or bad, even by modern standards.

I think what is most telling about how a character like Achilles was perceived in the culture that created him, is that his portrayal in later ancient greek works, mainly the theatrical and philosophical works of around the 5th cent BC, is generally positive. Some playwrights depicted him as a bit of a hothead or a little boisterous and full of himself, but that isn't really framed as a bad thing. Achilles in those works is a famous and powerful hero who knows how good he is and how much the army needs him, but he isn't needlessly flashy, he always keeps his word, he is brave and heroic even by modern standards: in Euripides' Iphigenia at Aulis, Achilles goes to great lengths to protect Clytemnestra and Iphigenia from the mob, and it is pointed out many times how averse he is to trickery and lies and that Chiron brought him up to be honourable, steadfast, to keep true to his values and to stay away from wickedness (which is what Agamemnon did, essentially). So I think it's really clear that for the ancient Greeks Achilles has many admirable traits.

You mentioned MM and how she modernised Achilles and made him sympathetic to a modern reader's eyes, and I simply don't think that's true. I think MM's portrayal of Achilles is pretty close both to the Iliad and how other ancient Greeks imagined him. She simply took away all those layers of nonsense that had been piled on top of him through centuries of literary criticism that took all the later Roman works that depicted him as a sadistic monster a little too seriously or only focused on how awful he was compared to Noble Hector (no hate on Hector but those classicists really need to find a new blorbo *smh*)

I also think that MM went a little too hard on the arrogance/pride thing and on his obsession with glory without preparing the ground for it enough, but that's just my personal opinion. Achilles is very concerned with his glory in the Iliad as well, but we have to keep in mind his position here: Achilles gave up everything for that glory. He knew about the prophecy and knew that he would die in Troy, and made the choice to fight in the war because glory is just that important within the context of the Iliad. I think that many of the heroes we see in the Iliad would have chosen the same, if given a dilemma like that. So Achilles gave up the life he could have had, his kingdom, his family, just for his name to live on through the ages, and then Agamemnon royally fucked that up by disrespecting and insulting him publicly in the vilest of ways. Achilles then made up his mind to abstain from the war and to go back to Phthia and thus giving up his claim to glory because he was so over the war, and he probably would have done that had Patroclus not died. And then there was nothing else for him to do other than to die as well.

So like.... idk. His actions make sense to me. He is a passionate character who is swept away by his emotions, he has flaws, he isn't perfect (if such a thing even exists) but I think he's all the more compelling for it.

I hope this answered your question, anon! Thank you for giving me the chance to ramble about my favourite fictional man <3

[jewishdainix]

My thoughts on paris the musical 💛 (spoilers!)

Stuff I liked:

The characterization!

When it comes to illiad interpitations I don't usually like it when Helen falls in love with Paris - here it works and its in large part of the characterization. Helen is aware and smart and contenplative. She isn't made into a "Strong Female Character" but neither is she made the dumb pretty face. And paris is a fool! She calls him a fool! They are still in love with eachother. Like I can't explain how well the creators managed to balance these traits that should contradict eachother! But they work so well in this.

Menelaus regreting going after helen and seeking revenge when he sees she loved paris. It did the characters and how they were presented well.

Another thing is helen being a "human counterpart" of aphrodite. Chilling.

I have to write a part about achilles and patroclus's characterizations. They are not what I expected, but I fell abseloutly in love with them! Achilles being cocky, patroclus being loud (WHOS SHOUTING?) just sitting at the side draped on eachother making comments. It was incredible. It makes the closer momente between them, like patroclus telling achilles he knows about the child inside him BECAUSE HE WAS THERE WHEN ACHILLES WAS JUST A CHILD, BECAUSE HE WAS A CHILD WITH HIM, hit so hard and be so fascinating. Same with when patroclus is talkign to agamemnon.

Cassandra. Enough said.

The music!

So fucking good. I love rock operas so much. I did have a bit of a hard time adjusting to the sound, since I don't listen to music from that time period much, like. At all. And there were dome songs I had to skip but it was soooo good. So fucking good.

PARIS, YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. Just. Fucking everything about cassandra. I swear my thoughts are more coherent than this. I swear. Cassandra's parts are sooo briliant. I can't even put those thoughts down. Its so good. Honestly listen to paris the musical if only for cassandra. Fucking hell she and her music are incredible.

Ulysses's small part in 'oh paris' was another thing I'm in love with. I love how it shows his cunning and her warning. It proves her right and I don't think they even talk to eachother in that song but it still manages to paint a dynamic/contrust between them. Fucking incredible.

Most parts about ulysses. Seaks peace and security lonely his road to achieve them . What if I commited murder

The song where the trojans were calling paros a a slut. That was so funny

Hell or high water. I will cry

Stuff I didn't like:

This mudical feels like it has a lot of loose ends with the themes it presents. Like, I really like the theme presented in "a head without a heart" of the importance of both athena and aphrodite . It was mentioned later by ulysses (another cassandra ulysses connection :D!!!) but it was such an interesting idea especially with how it relates to paris.

I wish they explored more all they set up in "charole". It was such a good opening song and I wish its themes appeared more throughout the musical.

I really don't like "love has power". Like as a theme its good but giving it to hector was a fucking waste. He did not deserve this theme, he did not show anything related to it. And furthermore I didn't like how the song sounded.

Adding it back in the finale was ok, but the fact that it was first sung by hector makes it feel so unconnected and weak.

I wish the musical was longer, so itd allow for ecploring the characters more thougrowly. And the music is very good, so it wouldnt hurt to have more songs. I wanted to know the characters better. It should have been longer.

Closing thoughts:

Please listen to this musical!! It is so worth your time and it is so awsome.

[greeknerdsblog]

Yk i always wanted to talk to you about this and im finally gonna do this. So yes from what i see most greek heroes esp the ones from the epic cycle are rapists. But I am not sure why people are okay with Odysseus being portrayed in an overly positive light as this loyal wife loving guy (Epic the Musical) but god forbid somebody decided to portray achilles in a different light other than his so called bloodthirsty warrior image. Like Odysseus also has myths about raping hecuba and i barely see anyone mentioning that (most people rather portray him as an SA victim or a serial cheater but no one mentions this).

Even as an avid TSOA fan I do recognise alot of flaws in the book (like the female characters arent well written except thetis like even if she was mostly negative- she had clear reasons as to why shes the way she is. The whole deal with briseis falling in love with patroclus, the deidameia rape scene i can go on) but it bothers me how people talk shit about madeline miller for depicting achilles different from the common perception (the bloodthirsty war machine) that too from the perspective of an obviously unreliable narrator but nobody says anything to jorge rivera herrans who actually solidifies Odysseus in his musical as this loyal wife loving guy (something he likely wasnt besides being a rapist as well). And sure jorge has a narrative but so does miller but why this partiality i wonder.

Also alot of TSOA haters have this tendency to act like regina george in greek myth discourse (and theyre the reason why i have sidelined myself from it) but they have no complaints against epic the musical not following the odyssey accurately.

Also on an ending note i wanna add, achilles is not a good person but he doesnt lack kindness if he wasnt kind he could have not give a fuck about the soldiers dying from plague apollo sent down cuz of Agamemnon. But he did yk

You have some very good questions.

1. Most of the generals took women as slaves—not just as sex slaves, but for everything, like maids—because this was a reality in ancient times. That’s why such things are considered war crimes in our time. The text specifically draws attention to this, not only in The Iliad and The Odyssey.

Regarding Odysseus, yes, he owned slaves, and after the fall of Troy, he was given Hecuba as a reward she is just his slave . However, the text does not mention whether Odysseus was intimate with his slaves. We can speculate about this, but since the text does not confirm it,but did not use his slaves.In The Iliad, Book 1, and Book 9, it is mentioned that Agamemnon was intimate with his slaves. As for Achilles, he sleeps with his slave together with Patroclus, but there is no explicit mention of sex. However, we can speculate that he most likely used his slaves in that way.

Regarding Deidamia and the claim that Achilles raped her, the only text that mentions this is Roman The Achilleid. In Greek sources, I can not find their relationship described as Deidamia being raped by him.

You're right that the Epic portrays Odysseus as a much more reasonable and heroic character, which I don't like. I love Odysseus, knowing the things he's done, because removing the things that make him "bad" makes him a flat character. I also hate the whole idea that he just loves his wife, even though he acted crazy to avoid going to war. He went through the war and its horrors for her and Telemachus.

He is a soldier in a war, and as we all agree, war is a terrible thing. If you want to win… you have to do bad things.

2. You're right about The Song of Achilles, although I haven't read it in a long time. But I read The Iliad before the original story. The reason people hate and criticize Madeline Miller so much is the fact that she literally creates something completely new, which I hate. Personally, I don’t have a strong opinion about her.The problem with her work is that people treat her books as if they are fact, even though she changes things to make her favorite characters more bearable and likable, which is bad. But the main reason people treat Epic this way is because it’s for children, and it’s something new. The product kind of needs time, yes, and it will go through stages.

Give it time, and there will be people who criticize it. Even now, there are people who criticize Epic. The musical is not ready yet—well, it’s ready, but it still needs time to be fully complete.

As an ironic Achilles fan (I apologize to the people who follow me who hate him), M.M. obviously wants to show his beloved in a good light, which is... problematic because Achilles is a soldier in a war. Also, Achilles is a deeply problematic character, written to show us that if you want to be the best at something, other people will suffer, which is bad. His story also questions whether being remembered is important and whether it’s all worth it—he’s just written that way.The fault may lie with the authors, but also with the people who listen to or read their work and focus on things that are not important or do not reflect the people of that time. Why can't they accept that these men, women, and gods are complex characters? It is not easy for them to bear.

As for why Achilles calls a meeting in book 1, he is motivated by Hera because she is worried that they keep dying

[ghostlymarauder]

Okey so I'm reading Circe and after reading the scene with Medea and Jason, I've finally pinpointed why I'm not liking this book like I liked The Song of Achilles—everyone is evil but Circe.

To that, you might argue "well, there's Daedalus", but he literally for like two chapters and then he fucking dies, so, I wouldn't count that as the most relevant of characters. So, by the point Medea and Jason go to Circe's island, we've only known evil character after evil character.

You could also argue that this is because the book it's narrated by Circe and then you could say she's an unreliable narrator, but that's not how it feels. I'll compare it to Katniss Everdeen in the Hunger Games books, because she's is an unreliable narrator and it feels as such.

When Katniss describes something, I feel like Suzanne Collins wanted it to feel like it's Katniss' opinions. When Circe's does, I feel like Madeline Miller wanted me to take it as literally as possible. And don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved The Song of Achilles, I devoured that book because I think it's beautifully written and has wonderful characters (that's not to say I don't think tsoa it's perfect and Circe's terrible or something, it's just to make clear that I don't have a problem with Madeline Miller as a writer).

And the problem with that it's not that it feels like Madeline Miller wants me to believe Circe is a reliable narrator, it's that the world is being presented to me like "Circe's parents are evil, and her siblings are evil (yes, even the one she thought was good), and all the Gods are evil, and even the mortals are evil. But not Circe, she's pure and innocent and yes, she went against every divine law to transform her non-lover into a god, and yes, she transformed a woman into a monster just because she was jealous, BUT she feels guilt and that makes it alright." AND IT FUCKING DOESN'T.

Like, it's okay if everyone's a shit, as long as everyone's a shit. I don't care if every character is questionable, but the main one should be questionable, too. And honestly, this is a problem in tsoa too, like Agamemnon is sort of presented as this savage villian and Diomedes is disgusting too and she tries hard to sell Odysseus as a terrible guy, too, but Patroclus and Achilles are just... Well, they're "good guys".

Achilles is a savage warrior who slays and slays and enjoys it, but Madeline Miller doesn't dive into that—she doesn't dive into his ruthlessness, his pride, the things he does selfishly. But then again, I can overlook it on tsoa for the sole reason that the whole book is narrated from Patroclus' point of view AND it's him reminiscing his life with Achilles to Tethis on their grave, so, I can accept that it's an hyper idolized version of everything that happens.

But there's no such plot lines on Circe. There's no such reason for it to be an idolized version of what happens. So, I'm not going to say I hate the book, because I would've stopped reading if I did, but I don't like it half as much as I like tsoa and I know I'm going to like it even less once Odysseus appears because it doesn't matter how much Madeline Miller tries to sell him as a bad guy, I still love him just the same.

PLUS, there isn't a world where I can defend Circe on what happens between her and Odysseus, just like I can't defend Calypso (though you could argue that Calypso is much worse, and she is). Also, I'm pretty sure that on Miller's Circe, she ends up with Telemachus, and it doesn't matter if it's on a retelling or the original myth, Circe and Telemachus together it's a flavor of wrong that I'm not okay with, even when it comes to Greek Mythology.

[patrochillesvibes]

O and I have an other question how do you think Achilles will react once he finds out about the fact that Patroclus had slept Deidameia. Because I do believe Patroclus haven’t to Achilles about it .

<3 <3 <3

Ah, the single plot point in TSoA I disagree with.

🎵How do you solve a problem like Pyrrhus🎶

So if we’re all gonna suck Homer’s dick, then let’s all get on the same page that Deidamia isn’t in the Iliad. Or the Odyssey. You also gotta be careful with any source material mentioning Deidamia as most of this content was part of a smear campaign by the Italians coughDantecough.

Pyrrhus is such a random character if you think about it. Achilles was not married, otherwise Agamemnon wouldn’t keep trying to get him to marry his seemingly endless supply of daughters. Pyrrhus isn’t labeled as a bastard, but what else could he be? Achilles would’ve had to have knocked up some chick.

And isn’t it strange that Achilles would do this? I don’t want to say it’s not in character, but it seems strange compared to his prophecy-focused life. (Also, Patroclus and Achilles don’t have little bastards running around the camp, so do we really believe they’re fucking the slaves? If they’re fucking the slaves, where are the babies? Birth control and abortions were not that good in 1250 BCE. But I’m getting super off topic now.)

This is why I personally believe Achilles found a random baby, adopted it, and had Mother feed him ambrosia.

I’m very passionate about ^this headcanon of mine.

Now back to TSoA…

First off, remember that Patroclus is a LIAR. He is not just full of bologna, he’s made out of bologna. He wants us to believe he’s a feminist? Anti-war? A doctor? Achilles is perfect? Patroclus PLEASE!

But you have to respect the lies because TSoA is essentially an autobiography and lying is like the first law of autobiography writing.

I’d also like to point out the clever literary trick at the end of TSoA. The book ends with Patroclus and Thetis chatting about Achilles. She says “Speak, then” to get Patroclus to share his memories. Thus, the book is not so much an account of his life, but essentially all the memories he had to share with her. He wants to show her how glorious her son was, the side she never got to see, the human nature she shunned, Achilles’ mortality. So of course he’s going to highlight the good, even enhance it as well as downplay or even lie about the bad.

But back to your question…

What happened at Skyros? Patroclus wants us to believe a lot of non-con was going on. I low-key have a very messed up theory about what actually happened and why it happened, but I don’t want to get into it rn a blogger on here might be unhappy bcs of a related ask I coincidentally just sent them. So for simplicity's sake, let’s assume that the non-con did indeed happen. I think he told Achilles a half-truth. Something to the effect of mentioning having comforted Deidamia and given her an official farewell (of the husbandly kind) on his behalf. He used a lot of double-meaning words to allow Achilles to interpret as he pleased.

And how did he interpret what Patroclus told him? First he was relieved that he would not have to deal with her again. Then he was his usual dumb blonde self (Patroclus calls this 'trusting', Pat pls) and took the words at face value. And I wouldn't blame him for it. When traumatic things happen to you, you do what you can to cope.

And please don’t take this as victim blaming or non-con denial, but the last lines of Chapter 13 never sat quite right with me.

Sorry to keep harping on the lying. Part of me thinks the scene with Deidamia was either a hallucination-false memory sequence to reinforce that patrochilles is 2-bodies-1-soul -what happens to Achilles happens to Pat; and part of me thinks this was Pat’s sly way of showing Thetis how she hurt Achilles by enabling the non-con. Sadly, we'll never know the truth, so it's up to you what you want to believe.

I hope this rambling rant answered your question. Thank you for the ask! I LOVE LOVE LOVE The Song of Achilles and am capable of ranting and raving about it for hours at a time 😘

[psy--conic]

Reading the Iliad, Book 9 thoughts

This is my first time ever reading it and I know next to nothing abt greek mythology so if I interpret anything wrong by all means pls correct me

Im reading the Robert Fagles translation

Here's the thing with Achilles. It is not enough for him to know he's the best, everyone else has to know it too, BUT even that's not enough. They cannot ever forget it AND they have to worship him for it. AND that's his fucking problem Achilles is SICK okay????😭

Like wtf

LITERALLY, no one is still upset abt what happened between Achilles and Agamemnon except Achilles.

Anyway Agamemnon summons all the important ppl on the Greek side, (Nestor, Odysseus, ppl like that)

Once they all get there Agamemnon starts bawling his little Greek eyes out bc shit is looking bleak

So Agamemnon says "fuck it, let's go home NOW."

Diomedes is like "Look man you've been kinda pissy at me buuuut ur a good leader or whatever so I think there's still a chance for the odds to be in our favor, but go home ig bc me and my men are staying until Troy falls."

Diomedes how does it feel to be Homer's fav??

Nestor decides they just need to make it through the night bc the Trojans are so close to their camp that they're neighbors atp

Nestor sits Agamemnon down and goes "What you did to Achilles was actually not cool and we really need him rn so you need to make things right."

AND AGAMEMNON actually agrees????? I still don't like him but this was super mature of him. It seems like despite his temper even he knows when he's in the wrong, unlike some other people.

Agamemnon lists off A BUNCH of shit that he's going to give Achilles. I started smiling bc the list just kept going.

He offers his own daughter for marriage, 7 women from lesbos, 20 Trojan women, and all the treasure his ships could carry. (there's more but this is the more important.)

Plus Berseis

Agamemnon says he'll swear an oath that he never slept with Berseis too.

Achilles gets all of this if he stops being angry and fights

So Ody, Ajax(Greater), Phoenix, and two heralds go to speak with Achilles

Achilles and Patroclus are just chilling as Achilles plays his stupid ass lyre

Patroclus mentioned♥️♥️♥️

When they see the group approaching, Achilles stands up and says "Omg I really missed up guys lol."

Like bro....

PEOPLE ARE DYING???

Achilles and Patroclus play host for the group and they all eat.

Achille is really happy to see his friends

So Odysseus starts trying to convince Achilles to re-join the fight

Achilles starts ranting abt how he's done everything but Agamemnon keeps the lions share of what they bring back

Then he goes on to talk abt how he loves Berseis only for her to be snatched away

Basically, he says no and then Achilles says "I will leave at first light."

KNOWING DAMN WELL HE'S NOT GONNA LEAVE. STOP LYING

Achilles is so weird to me. You're not going to accept the gifts, you're not going to leave, but you're going to fight either??? WHAT DO YOU WANT THEN???? He's sulking like a child

Then Achilles says "I don't want his shitty gifts and even if his daughters rivaled Aphrodite in looks I still wouldn't want them, and he can keep Berseis."

...........hello???

Phoenix starts trauma dumping but he tells Achilles that he's being disrespectful.

I think Phoenix tells the story (you know the one) of Meleager and Cleopatra. and Achilles is like "okay be quiet."

The group goes to leave, and Ody says that it's silly Achilles is doing this all over one woman.

But at this point it's not abt Berseis anymore and I don't think it ever was.

Achilles tells them that he won't fight until Hector gets so close that he's up their asses

I love finding out why Achilles is an asshole

[table-top-romulan-playing-games]

Chryses: hello, king Agamemnon, i have brought adequate reverence and offers to you and wish to plead for the safe return of my daughter please.

All of the other kings and generals: Yeah, he brought sufficient offers, you should give her back.

Agamemnon: No. She's my concubine and im sending her back to my palace where i will have her adorn my couch every night, fuck you old man :/

Chryses: -Goes back to the temple of Apollo where he is the priest- pls save my daughter.

Apollo: -Agrees and sets a plague onto the Acheans bc wtf Agamemnon-

----- later -----

Achilles: Hey, the prophet we've had with us since we before we even declared war, the one you supposedly dont like bc of the prophecy he told about Artemis wanting a Sacrifice, says he knows why there is a plague upon us rn.

Agamemnon: fine, he may speak.

The prophet: you will protect me from his anger wont you achilles?

Achilles: sure, he shouldnt get angry with you anyway, ur just the messenger and it was something we fucked up so...

Prophet: ok, well the plague is here bc you wouldnt give back the daughter of Chryses when he asked you nicely and gave you offering, so he asked Apollo to smite you and Apollo agreed you fucked up, so now if you want to fix it you have to give her back, plus reverence to Apollo, and you cannot ask for anything in return :/

Agamemnon: THATS BULLSHIT! SHE IS MY PRIZE I WILL NOT LET HER GO!

Achilles: I think you should listen to him, you already have 6x the amount of treasure and war prizes than anyone else, and if you do, then upon the next raid, we shall garauntee 3x what you had recieved this raid.

Agamemnon: actually u kno wat fuck u i'll just take Breseis instead since u wanna take mine away :/

Achilles:....

Achilles: listen here you lazy ass petty bitch, were it not for the goddess Athena holding me back i would run you through with my sword, but she gave me permission to lash at you with my tongue. You have done nothing but order people around and sit on your ass, you have done the least and have gotten the most reward where as i and mine have done the most and get scrap for reward, and the one actual war prize i had recieved fairly you wish to take away bc you want to be petty that a god is forcing you to give back one of dozens of concubines??? That we all agreed you should have gave back and refused, causing this plague in first place.

Agamemnon: U brought this doom singing prophet, that i didnt bother replacing 10 years ago, into the council tent, so, yes.

Achilles: well then fuck u, im about to become the demigod of petty, eat my ass

[darlin-collins]

okay more on me naming characters randomly and then regretting it later

I heard epic the musical I love that shit and when I like something I do the only thing that any person like me does

I made ocs! odysseus's nephews, twins!

now I'm not familiar with anything Greek I barely know Zeus and Hera Poseidon and whatever I collected from the musical right?

I go and search for ancient Greek names

I look for a while and then I stumble upon the name Achilles and the name Hector

and I look at them and I go "fucking perfect"

now I have twins who are named Achilles and Hector,right?

I've had them for a few months now I like my characters

today I get curious because there is a song that I like that's named "Achilles come down"

and like the comments are all about this Patroclus is the one singing it and stuff and their tragedy and their relationship / friendship

so I go look what the hell is with Achilles right?

(so now if you didn't know what's with Achilles ,Achilles is some invincible warrior that got dunked in the fucking River death or whatever by his mom, who was sent along with the thousand ships of the Trojan war to go and get Helen, he had a "best friend" read lover, named patroclus ,and like, they shared a tent together they were like "we're married but we're not" like the bromance was not bromancing anymore it was straight up romance, and one day Achilles gets into an argument with Agamemnon and then he just decides that "hey I'm not going to the war anymore y'all can die without me" and Patroclus who I think was a healer, was like "that's not right I'm going to wear your armor and go in your steed" and achilles tries to stop him, doesn't work let him wear his armor and tells him "to come back to me" well he doesn't, Patroclus dies, Hector kills him, and achilles loses his shit,he screams at the sky so hard it said that the Gods flinched, storms up to the war kills Hector, and ties him to his chariot and drags him around Troy everyday for 12 days in front of everyone mind you Hector is the prince of Troy he also refuses to bury Patroclus and sleeps with him not like that and talks with him and washes him everyday in their tent also no one in the Trojan war had a shared a tent but them and when they buried him Achilles literally sacrificed 12 Trojan boys and his hair with Patroclus and demanded that when he dies to bury him with him, and then the king of Troy, hector's dad does to enemy territory alone walks into Achilles's tent and begs for his son back so they can fucking bury him and achilles relents and they cried together about it and achilles literally stops the war for a few days so they can burry Hector after and he washes Hector by the way like he's the one who prepared the body for the burial, and then there are versions that say Achilles was killed because his heel was not invincible by Hector's brother I don't trust that one it's not homer's so)

so like yeah and I all foolishness and zero educational purposes look at this not knowing the story and decided that I'm naming my twins Achilles and Hector

I probably have more ironically named characters I'm going to make this a Serie

[littlesparklight]

Why do Patrochilles fans always seem to forget about the Trojan women and children do they not matter?

To be fair, there are probably several reasons, and, I'd guess, no matter which other reasons there might be, being uncomfortable with the violence and the cruelty is probably a big reason.

Which is neither strange nor wrong!

But - well. This is about war. War in a society where slavery is a thing and where, specifically, the captives taken are enslaved. If (general) you like an Achaean character in the Trojan war narrative, then your blorbo absolutely has traumatized an unknown number of women personally by killing members of their natal and/or potentially marital family, long before Troy falls. And are, at the very least, using them as slave labour.

And a smaller number of said captive women are serving as personal status objects, including serving in their captor's beds. (And, you clearly don't need to be one of these ~special~ slaves for this to happen either, if circumstances change, as Diomede (the woman Achilles sleeps with/next to the night of the embassy) shows.)

(The discomfort is, presumably, also part of why some people are working overtime in trying to soften and cutiefy the Odysseus-Astyanax situation with ~he saves him~ AUs or just general angst and regret in the moment and milking it afterwards. I had to see "father son duo" in connection with fucking Odysseus and Astyanax a couple days ago, and, ugh. Like, sorry, but even when Odysseus isn't the killer he seems to always come up with/champion the idea! Make your peace with it instead of having Odysseus cry as if he fucking CARES about this one child that he's advocating for murdering. (I would not really think it odd if Odysseus potentially has PTSD from this, but man, the way I've seen it used just makes me pissed off, sorry not sorry. Astyanax is basically just a prop.)

Anyway, ok.

I have no idea if TSoA is actually the most usual way for shippers to get into Patrochilles any more, but it still seems like that? And TSoA works very, very hard to soften and smooth out all and any uncomfortable bits. The Troilus incident doesn't exist, and the Achilles and Patroklos are basically running a ~women's shelter~ and not doing anything questionable with the women with their power or whatever.

If this is where you come into Patrochilles specifically and the Trojan war in general, no wonder you'd like to keep ignoring all the unpleasant bits. Which like. Fine. If they would keep to TSoA, but usually they don't.

The Hades game, too, did its work of presenting a more palatable Achilles. It is post-war, so basically nothing comes up, and the Achilles we get is unexplainedly regret- and shameful over his earlier behaviour and actions. I say unexplainedly not because I couldn't necessarily see this change, but it's not actually shown to us. We're just shown a personality that isn't actually very/at all connected to what those of us who knows the Iliad and the Odyssey have seen.

Even the Odyssey doesn't show us an Achilles who regrets anything of what he did (and he's proud of his son's achievements, even if Odysseus doesn't enumerate them in detail). What Achilles in the Odyssey regrets is being dead, specifically, and he seems rather depressed over being so.

So, again, if you come in to Patrochilles and the Hades game, it's once again easy to just... ignore stuff you don't want to touch on (even more so, since it's (long) post-war, which is undoubtedly a plus, genuinely).

The thing is, though - when you start dipping into the actual Trojan war, even just by reading, say, Achilles' wiki page, especially Troilus is right there. And making jokes (I have seen several) about "what would Achilles need Lesbian women for, Agamemnon, you idiot!!", is just... unpleasant. What are enslaved women used for, huh? Sexuality jokes have no place in this instance, just because someone might be uncomfortable and/or clinging to "Achilles is totally and only gay and doesn't fuck women".

But, tl; dr; no I don't think that, in general, most Patrochilles shippers think the Trojan (and every other woman who was enslaved during these ten years) women and the children matter. They're here for the ship.

And there is not really anything wrong with that, but the way the war (and the women, children etc) are usually dealt with (or not) in the course of that is extremely lacking because it's basically all whitewashed. (And Hektor gets used as some sort of handy ship-obstacle in any way they like to. Leave Hektor alone, damn it.)

[rosquinn]

Hi Roski! I have a question, would you mind to help, please?

Okay, so the other when I was wandering through the shelves of my local library I found our that they have a copy of Madeline's Miller Circe... And I was thinking that maybe I should give it a try? 😅

I know that it's not mythology accurate but as long as the plotline is well-written... Idk maybe I will enjoy in spite of it 🤷🏻‍♀️ Do you is it a good idea?

I just wanted to know if you believe is worth the time or nor

Also, same goes for Achilles's song. They don't have it at the library, but I thought that if I enjoyed Circe I should try it to? 🤔

i used to be a huge madelline miller fan *vaguely gestures at her short story about galatea i still have in my bookshelf for some reason* but i realized she, well, uh, sucks

it's not about her writing, (it's excessively "poetic" and decorated in my opinion but that's subjective) it's that her interpretations are kind of. bad?

i'm gonna elaborate under the cut about why i don't like her (long rant and tw for *mentions of s/a*)

-she victimizes her female main character and makes her go through traumatic experiences to erase and excuse all the bad stuff she's done... "circe turned odysseus' men into pigs bc they tried to assault her" yeah. no. she forced odysseus to sleep with her and turned his men into pigs because she felt like it. i understand you want a feminist badass witch but just. no. she isn't a cute uwu unfairly exiled goddess. what she did to odysseus is sexual abuse.

-she apparently hates women that aren't circe. made thetis, i repeat, our thetis, MOTHER thetis, a homophobic and overprotective mom who wants to kill patroclus in SOA for some reason (wasn't she literally the one who sent patroclus to the war with achilles..... miller..aren't you a classics major..). she did to her what other adaptations do to demeter, basically. and for no reason at all. but i guess her cute baby achilles who is doomed by the narrative can't have a nice mom who let him do whatever he wanted to because that would make him RUDE and EVIL and her character(s) can't have bad qualities. she also made achilles's wife, deidameia, who in some versions is raped by him, a “slut that gets in the way of your gay ship” archetype. she also made her rape achilles for some reason??? and that is fucking horrible

-baby-fied patroclus. he speaks like a stupid teenager girl stereotype in soa and is pretty much a useless human being whose entire personality is simping for achilles. that is not him. he DID fight in the trojan war, he was a SKILLED fighter, not a useless twig, he is described as tall and handsome, he healed some warriors, he is SAVAGE, bro literally broke kebriones's head with a rock in front of his brother and made fun of it??? he tried to climb the walls of troy and conquer it by himself??? he told achilles to stop being a bitch and move his ass??? and then in soa he's a useless piece of shit who DIDN'T EVEN FIGHT IN THE WAR, thinks of himself as weak and was thinking about achilles until the moment he died. sorry to break it to you but his last words in the iliad weren't "omg achilles no😥😥". he threw a whole essay at hector about how he didn't kill shit, it was apollo who beat him and hector's about to get dragged. and when his ghost came back to talk to achilles, it was to tell him to STOP CRYING and KILLING PEOPLE and BURN HIS BODY ALREADY. she completely erased his character. sorry.

-glorified achilles wayyy too much. one thing that i hate about her is how she can't let anyone make mistakes. achilles isn't “noble and doomed by the narrative”. he knew pretty well where he was stepping in and didn't give two shits. he literally says in Iliad book 1 he's there for the mass murder, glory and nothing more. “why would i kill hector what has hector ever done to me” MY ASS. he also was kind of an insufferable bitch in the iliad. i'm tired of people making his decision of stop fighting look “heroic/noble/tragic/etc bc agamemnon is evil” because it was not. he stopped fighting for selfish reasons, treated everyone really bad and let his friends die. also, agamemnon isn't “evil” and achilles isn't “good”. they're both war criminals who act like 8 year olds and kidnap women. every achaean character is a bitch, has killed at least 6 people and enjoyed it. yes. even babyboy patroclus (book 16)

-i'm not even saying this as a person with greek ancestry or a pagan, because i am neither, but her depiction of the gods is TERRIBLE. just what is that whole thing of "gods want mortals to fear them so they worship them"??? that's not even how religion works??? gods can be and in fact are very nice to their worshippers?? why would you villainize cultural figures like that?? and why tf it always gotta be a EVIL FEMALE GODDESS trying to fuck up her main character's life for some reason?? athena wants to kill circe's son in circe and i'm pretty sure they don't even interact in the odyssey?? (maybe they did, i don't remember, but if it happened it was definitely NOT because of that) and why is hermes a manipulator?? and why is ODYSSEUS a manipulator??? you literally sexually assaulted him??? HELLO????

idk, it just feels like mc victimization and random female character villainization (she also put the whole blame of the trojan war on helen because she was “vain” and “selfish”??? didn't she spend the whole iliad blaming herself for the war and wishing to die??)

i don't really like it. it's not a good adaptation

also i'm not the best person to expand on this topic because i am not a gay man/mlm/nblm but some people on tumblr have explained why tsoa is basically mlm fetish and wattpad fujoshi looking crap and they do have a point (the relationship is so stereotyped tbh) so i encourage you to read their posts. i don't have them rn but i can dm them to you later if you want

AND finally, most people in her fanbase can't separate a wattpad fanfic (because that's what tsoa is) from the original text and think tsoa and circe are just like what homer wrote. “hector didn't know it was patroclus” HE FUCKING DID PATROCLUS KILLED 20 PEOPLE IN FRONT OF HIM IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE “patroclus died bc he wasn't a skilled warrior” HE HAS THE SECOND HIGHEST KILL COUNT IN THE WHOLE ILIAD AND WAS FULL OF HUBRIS. HE DIED BECAUSE HE TRIED TO FISTFIGHT A GOD “deidameia raped achilles” “thetis is homophobic” “odysseus is evil” “it was all helen's fault” “circe did nothing wrong” “athena is bad” no (and they act like not shipping patrochilles makes you homophobic which is. cmon. i personally think they def had something going on but it's never explicitly stated and you can't act like it is)

ik i got too aggressive but it's just bad imo, if you want to enjoy a good iliad/odyssey adaptation go play hades or listen to epic the musical or even play limbus company because i swear lc's odysseus, a literal old woman who committed identity fraud, is at least 80 times more in character than miller's babyboys

ADDITION: no i'm not going to dismember you for liking tsoa or circe. this is just a personal opinion. enjoy whatever you want i'm just a little guy and i can't stop you. have fun!