#like fuck Agamemnon as well but fuck Achilles

[babyrdie]

Okay, I have something to confess… none of the deaths in The Iliad were sad for me. Aside from the amount of randoms dying, let's consider Patroclus and Hector here because I honestly don't remember the rest.

Patroclus: I genuinely couldn't be sad. Sure, I was sad about the characters' reactions to Patroclus' death (for example, Antilochus running and crying and Achilles' depressive episode), but not about his final battle itself. I'm sorry, guys, but it was funny to read him about to die being petty and saying to Hector something like "you idiot, you only killed me because Zeus and Apollo helped you. Face me alone and I'll kill you! I'll kill you multiple times! Anyway, Achilles is going to kick your ass hahahahahaha he's going to kick your ass SO MUCH". Like, dude, you're DYING. What's YOUR problem, you looked your KILLER in the face and said "actually ☝️ I can kill you". And okay, even if we think it's true that two gods helped Hector… MAN, WHAT KIND OF MIND DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE TO DECIDE THAT YOUR LAST WORDS ARE GOING TO BE ACCUSING YOUR KILLER OF BEING WEAKER THAN YOU. If I were Hector I would respond something like "man, fuck you, you're dying!!!"

Hector: I also couldn't be sad about the death itself. It was sad to see Priam begging, Andromache talking about being enslaved, etc. But the moment of the battle? Sorry, the battle was hilarious. In Book 16, Patroclus was there spitting blood and dying while still using his last breath to be like "I didn't lose, YOU will lose" to Hector (man that was petty) and Hector was like "Achilles? He's not going to kick my ass, I AM going to kick his ass". And then he goes and prepares to fight Achilles alone, despite his understandably worried parents, because he needs to defend the city and it's a touching moment and you understand Hector's decision, but you still feel like it's suicidal, but hey…he seems confident. And you think that this is where the typical epic fight will happen, especially since he responded to Patroclus' threat by insinuating that he would defeat Achilles. But no, he sees Achilles approaching with a murderous aura around him and decides that he's going to run. And he DOESN'T stop. They run around the walls of Troy while the Trojans watch…what is this, a stadium where you watch the action from above? And then you're like "man, how long are they going to run?" and apparently Athena thought so too because she goes and tricks Hector into stopping running. And then you think okay, now it's the epic fight. But no, they're throwing spears at each other and exchanging harsh words while Athena shows her favoritism by helping Achilles. And then Hector is dying and he's like "Paris and Apollo are gonna kill you!!!!" and Achilles is like "bitch, look at my face and tell me if I look like someone who wants to live."

And as an honorable mention, we have two other funny no-death-all-teasing moments!

One of them is Achilles running after Apollo. Bitch, I know you're mad, but that's a GOD. Hurting a god is already a rare feat, do you really think you're going to be able to kill him or something? You got your ass kicked by Scamandrius despiste your confidence (another hilarious scene, actually), man, Apollo isn't on your level. I KNOW YOU'RE MENTALLY UNSTABLE IN THIS SCENE, BUT MAN. Apollo actually taunting Achilles is also hilarious. He is a god that's thousands of years old and he's arguing with this guy who can't even be 30 years-old. This guy who, like, Apollo's stepmother (Hera) acts like he's just Thetis' baby (Hera defending Achilles be like: well, he was suckled on the divine breasts of Thetis! Thetis, a goddess! Goddess that I raised!!!). Like, man, I know you want to kill him, just kill him. No need to trade taunts like you're in the same position or something. My theory is that Apollo was in a bit of an Book 1 Achilles situation. Achilles wanted to kill Agamemnon, but Athena stopped him, so the only option left was to curse him. Apollo wants to kill Achilles, but fate exists and it's not Achilles' time to die. So okay, he'll do the second best thing: provoke him. Like, it is SO personal lol

The other moment is Aeneas. Apollo encouraging Aeneas to fight Achilles because his mother is Aphrodite and Achilles' mother is Thetis, and since Aphrodite is more powerful than Thetis, surely Aeneas is stronger than Achilles, right? Aeneas then goes on and gives Achilles a huge speech. He goes on and on about how his mother is Aphrodite, about how he won't be intimidated, about how he won't be just another one... then Achilles kicks his ass SO hard that Poseidon has to step in and take Aeneas away. And Achilles cares SO MUCH about Aeneas that he's like "oh, a god helped you. Okay then" and goes back to fighting. And let's face it, if Achilles had any interest in Aeneas, he wouldn't care that the gods want Aeneas alive. He literally commits sacrilege with Hector's and tries to go after Apollo, he just didn't go after Aeneas because he apparently doesn't care enough about him. Man, Aeneas, that was humiliating. All that confident speech for that.

I'm seeing a pattern here, actually:

Patroclus "I could kill you!!!" to Hector while being killed by Hector. Okay, man…but dead people don't fight! At least you can brag that you beat Sarpedon if you care so much about proving your skills even while you're dying, I guess.

Hector "hahaha I'll kick Achilles' ass, that threat doesn't affect me!" to Patroclus and then running after seeing Achilles. Running for his entire life if it weren't for Athena. Is this the swift-footed Hector we see running for the third time?????

Achilles "I'm the best of the Greeks! I'm the peak! I'm THE MAN" to Scamandrius and then having to desperately be saved. Dude was defeated by SCAMANDRIUS and thought he could chase APOLLO. GUY IS THE SON OF A NEREID AND ALMOST DIED IN THE WATER.

Aeneas "my mother is Aphrodite, your mother is Thetis. I'm the chad, you're the virgin. That's how we are, you understand?" and then having to desperately be saved. It's even funnier when you think about how he was like "well, his mom is Thetis and she is a Nereid, not a Olympian…" BITCH DIOMEDES ISN'T EVEN A DEMIGOD AND YOU WOULD DIE IF IT WEREN'T FOR APHRODITE. HOW THE HELL DID YOU THINK YOUR MOTHER BEING APHRODITE WOULD MAKE YOU STRONGER THAN ACHILLES IF YOU WERE NOT STRONGER THAN A GUY WHO IS NOT EVEN A DEMIGOD.

But well, Hector, Patroclus and Achilles are all characters I adore. Aeneas I don't have a strong opinion of, truth be told (no, I haven't read The Aeneid). And yes, this post is completely immature. I've made many posts giving serious opinions, let me be honest about how I felt in these scenes even if they weren't written to be funny.

[talxe]

Reading the Iliad, Book 9 thoughts

This is my first time ever reading it and I know next to nothing abt greek mythology so if I interpret anything wrong by all means pls correct me

Im reading the Robert Fagles translation

Here's the thing with Achilles. It is not enough for him to know he's the best, everyone else has to know it too, BUT even that's not enough. They cannot ever forget it AND they have to worship him for it. AND that's his fucking problem Achilles is SICK okay????😭

Like wtf

LITERALLY, no one is still upset abt what happened between Achilles and Agamemnon except Achilles.

Anyway Agamemnon summons all the important ppl on the Greek side, (Nestor, Odysseus, ppl like that)

Once they all get there Agamemnon starts bawling his little Greek eyes out bc shit is looking bleak

So Agamemnon says "fuck it, let's go home NOW."

Diomedes is like "Look man you've been kinda pissy at me buuuut ur a good leader or whatever so I think there's still a chance for the odds to be in our favor, but go home ig bc me and my men are staying until Troy falls."

Diomedes how does it feel to be Homer's fav??

Nestor decides they just need to make it through the night bc the Trojans are so close to their camp that they're neighbors atp

Nestor sits Agamemnon down and goes "What you did to Achilles was actually not cool and we really need him rn so you need to make things right."

AND AGAMEMNON actually agrees????? I still don't like him but this was super mature of him. It seems like despite his temper even he knows when he's in the wrong, unlike some other people.

Agamemnon lists off A BUNCH of shit that he's going to give Achilles. I started smiling bc the list just kept going.

He offers his own daughter for marriage, 7 women from lesbos, 20 Trojan women, and all the treasure his ships could carry. (there's more but this is the more important.)

Plus Berseis

Agamemnon says he'll swear an oath that he never slept with Berseis too.

Achilles gets all of this if he stops being angry and fights

So Ody, Ajax(Greater), Phoenix, and two heralds go to speak with Achilles

Achilles and Patroclus are just chilling as Achilles plays his stupid ass lyre

Patroclus mentioned♥️♥️♥️

When they see the group approaching, Achilles stands up and says "Omg I really missed up guys lol."

Like bro....

PEOPLE ARE DYING???

Achilles and Patroclus play host for the group and they all eat.

Achille is really happy to see his friends

So Odysseus starts trying to convince Achilles to re-join the fight

Achilles starts ranting abt how he's done everything but Agamemnon keeps the lions share of what they bring back

Then he goes on to talk abt how he loves Berseis only for her to be snatched away

Basically, he says no and then Achilles says "I will leave at first light."

KNOWING DAMN WELL HE'S NOT GONNA LEAVE. STOP LYING

Achilles is so weird to me. You're not going to accept the gifts, you're not going to leave, but you're going to fight either??? WHAT DO YOU WANT THEN???? He's sulking like a child

Then Achilles says "I don't want his shitty gifts and even if his daughters rivaled Aphrodite in looks I still wouldn't want them, and he can keep Berseis."

...........hello???

Phoenix starts trauma dumping but he tells Achilles that he's being disrespectful.

I think Phoenix tells the story (you know the one) of Meleager and Cleopatra. and Achilles is like "okay be quiet."

The group goes to leave, and Ody says that it's silly Achilles is doing this all over one woman.

But at this point it's not abt Berseis anymore and I don't think it ever was.

Achilles tells them that he won't fight until Hector gets so close that he's up their asses

I love finding out why Achilles is an asshole

[kindred-spirit-93]

AIGHT THE REVIEWS ARE IN

imeda i love you this fic has bewitched me body and soul i legit am no longer able to can neo is whats keeping me sane atp thank u for making this i will never ever recover (wrote this as i was reading lol)

-

I MADE A MEME LMAO

odysseus what the fuck dude. step the fuck up. what the fuck >:[

--

“I would rather my son fade into obscurity than live a life like yours, rotten and vicious, remembered for nothing but the lives you took and the agony you caused." BITCH WHO DID THAT??? WHO??

"You’ll be remembered as Achilles’ son, who fought for less than him and destroyed everything he touched.” OH NO HE FUCKING DIDNT

the line neo spits to ody abt tele being the opposite of him bc he was untouched for 20 years fucked me up i hope ur happy

--

first telemachus appearance whoop whoop *bites him cutely*

also neo being absolutely whipped FROM HIS VOICE ALONE (he called him pretty 3 seconds ago but whatever) SENT ME LMAO

obligatory agamemnon slander lol. also i adore the post odyssey setting its genius its brilliant its everything i ever wanted in life and more. also odypen giggling over war plans has no right being this funny to me

HE CALLED HIM BEAUTIFUL HOLY SHIT *explodes*

squeaking like a fruit bat over here lmao my heart

"... acquainted" my ass neo (i love u). GET HIS ASS TELE AHAHAHHAH god i want to draw them so horrifically bad

THEYRE HOLDING HANDS. OH MY GOD THEYRE HOLDING HANDS. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. theyre married ur honour

imeda i had no idea neo was this fucking down bad for tele this is the funniest thing ive ever seen in my life neo is so angsty and brooding the whole time (and rightfully so lol) and then tele looks at him and hes like damn i no longer want to disembowel myself with the dagger (engraved with his faveourite flower/ plant) he gifted me

HNBHGNBHJMNBHJNHNHJMNH HE SAID THE F WORD (FRIEND)

lmao dinner with the in laws! odysseus get rekt

i need neo and deidamia shenanigans i think theyre both menaces.

LMAO NEO MY BABY I CANT. his dates training sessions with tele are purely to train him as the biggest fuck u to ody and not at all to spend more time with the crown prince. as one does of course.

all i can think of is tele as that one vine: i am NOT chicken little XD

--

argos!! idc what yall say he is alive and well and gnawing on the bones of suitors.

THE PALMS OF HIS HAND IM CRYING AND BEGGING U TO STOP ur so cruel i love u pls continue and torture him (and me) harder

neos PTSDyyseus (geddit?) is slowly killing me. cant wait to see how this plays out esp if tele does something that really strikes a nerve

ody: u just want attention, u dont want my sons heart neo: *throws his throne at him*

the love and a slit throat line is so raw and beautiful, something tells me its a favourite of yours as it is a maxim to neo lol

neo was really harsh and tele has unlocked 17 new kinks asdfgh. stop falling deeper in love with him its going to break u neo wake tf up

"He likes this look on Telemachus’ face. He likes the fiery determination, the indignation, the rage. He likes this Telemachus just as much as he likes the sweet one who could grow flowers with his touch alone. He thinks that not as many people get to see this Telemachus." god help me. my beans >:')

OHOHOHOOH "holding her close to him with a kind of desperation that Neoptolemus recognizes" FUCK

i think i remember a snippet of where neo says deidamia would gladly accept pyrrhus back, but neo was no longer him, and it still hurts to think of. well done u truly have a way with words and imagery that compounds the gravity of the situation and spins them into a morsel that loves to squat in the middle of your throat and make u feel things.

--

fuck i just got to the underworld bit and im sick to my stomach. fuck. *combusts in nonexistent daddy issues* *heals only to die again worse*

OH MY GOD. NO U CANT DO THIS TO ME. HOW DARE U MAKE IT WORSE neo now being scared bc his dad cared and he can no longer tell himself welp its not like achilles' approval mattered anyway. FUCK

“He regretted much in his life, but you were never one of those things,” WHAT IF I CRIED. WHAT THEN?

lol tele pulling if not his friend then mine shit. love that for him

polites?? polites in my neomachus fic?? america exblain. (no seriously pls im genuinely confused, didnt he die via zeus?)

--

in conclusion:

neo: *punches tele's nose* fuck you

tele: *bleeding profusely* i love u too

neomachus my one and only tether to sanity (and my moots ofc)

(fun fact i made this before getting to the part where neo actually punches him in the nose and ngl i feel great no one talk to me lmao)

--

also also while reading i was humming along to blue eyes and guess what im gifting neo lmao. its 17 times funnier to me now after reading bc they flirt by nearly killing each other.

anyway bless you eternally, tysm for writing and gracing my eyes and heart and nourishing my soul with this ship lol, best of luck in uni may u pass every exam with flying colours and eat ur favourite food always

givin u a bajillion kudos ao3 cant tell me what to do >:(

also fable and truth slaps lol like its such a great opening chapter title

HELLOOOO EVERYBODY!!!

chapter one of my neomachus fic, someday i know you’ll come to your senses, is finally up!! you can check it out HERE!!

[masterofthewarcry]

no, no you don't GET IT. okay - so he's only a little kid when his dad goes off to war and dies, right? he doesn't know his dad. all he knows is that his dad was a great warrior favored by athena, and that he has to avenge him (IMAGINE a little kid sitting by his mother's feet while she spins wool telling him he has to avenge his father some day, imagine it). so he grows up a little, following in his father's footsteps to become a great warrior, and then BAM he gets thrown into full blown WAR at fourteen. it's epigoni time people. he's the youngest there, this is the first time he's ever experienced real battle, and its in THEBES where his dad (who's ghost has been haunting him the whole time) DIED. anywhere he steps on the battlefield could be the very spot where his dad died. but he makes it through. they take the city, sack it, go home.

and that in itself is enough to make a man a legend, right? but almost as soon as he gets home, there's trouble in calydonia (where his grandfather is supposed to rule, but he gets usurped by an uncle or cousin or something). so he fucks off to calydonia to sort that out and ends up having to fight in ANOTHER huge battle to reinstate his grandfather as the king. but again, he pulls through, makes it out alive and goes home.

he gets married to aegialia, who's significantly older than him and who he doesn't know all that well just in time for adrastus (the king of argos and one of the original seven against thebes) to kick it. now, i'm not saying that adrastus was something of a father figure to him, but i think it makes sense narratively. so adrastus kicks it, and he inherits the city of argos, again being very young and not knowing much about ruling. he doesn't really get a chance to learn though because BAM it's trojan war time baby!!

so he gets together all the able-bodied argives (which is a LOT, like he's bringing a significant portion of the greek force) and they sail to aulis to meet up with the rest of the gang. sthenelus and euryalus (two of his buddies from the epigoni days) come with him - i like to think that they're like older brothers to him; sources he can look to for advice and support. ANYWAYS everybody gets to aulis, he goes to meet the rest of the kings and as soon as he introduces himself, everyone's talking about his father.

but its fine - even though he's proven himself to be a more capable warrior than his father was already. hes not here to cause a scene (no, they have achilles for that - but they dont have him yet so hold that thought), hes here to do a job. and do a job he will, because someone has to go fetch achilles from hiding! better send the young guy who MIGHT be able to hold his own against the strongest warrior in the world if he decides to fight back. and odysseus, of course.

they couldn't be more different, he and odysseus. odysseus is older, he's not been in a battle like this before, he has a son, he's generally regarded as a good king. whereas all he's ever known is war, he barely knows his own wife (DEFINITELY not enough to have a son), and he knows next to nothing about being a king. yet they hit it off. odysseus is charismatic and funny and he's ENRAPTURED by the way he talks about ithaca. he's never known anything like that. argos is home, sure, but ithaca is EVERYTHING to odysseus.

they collect achilles, with some trickery, and the real trojan war starts going. ILIAD TIME it's been nine years. he and odysseus are buddy buddy now (athena boys in business fr), achilles is on the fritz throwing a temper tantrum (NOT in a useful way on the battlefield). agamemnon is talking about giving up. menelaus ALMOST got paris's ass but aphrodite spirited him away. he and odysseus are holding this operation together. he's putting all this previous war experience to good use absolutely KILLING IT on the battlefield. he's going after aeneas, and then aphrodite, and then ARES the GOD OF WAR HIMSELF. achilles has NOTHING on him at this point. but the whole army is still praying for achilles return.

but it's fine - even though he's single handedly running the show at this point. he gets shot through the foot by paris and odysseus pulls it out because THEY WATCH EACH OTHERS BACKS, they look after each other. NIGHT RAID TIME, he and odysseus hit the town (and by hit the town i mean kill ~14 men under the cover of darkness and steal their horses), common athena boys W. they wash all the blood of themselves in the sea together afterwards, classic bro activities. he's feeding himself with odysseus's stories at this point because the way he talks about ithaca really does make it sound like something worth fighting for.

achilles comes back- OOPS, we thought it was achilles but its NOT its patroclus in his armor and now hes DEAD. achilles comes back for real, and now HECTOR is dead. who's that up on the walls of troy with a bow is that-? BAM, achilles dead, shot by paris. things are looking bleak and good at the same time. the palladium needs to be stolen so they can sack troy? easy money. NIGHT RAID PART 2, stealing the palladium time. easy money until odysseus decides to try and stab him in the back. he's devastated - his closest friend, caught up in the idea of having all the glory for himself. they've switched positions, now he is the one who wants nothing to do with this war, and odysseus is the glory-hungry king. heartbreaking.

TROJAN HORSE, the time is finally ripe to sack troy. everyone's behaving badly, people are getting raped on temple steps, it's a mess. odysseus throws a baby off the walls of troy. he's one of the only ones who doesn't get caught up in it because he's tired. he's tired of war and he wants to go home, even though argos is nothing like the home he's built in his head. there is no wife and son to return to. he knows nothing about being king. the rocky coasts of ithaca do not await him.

troy burns. the war is over, the ships are loaded with spoils, he sets sail for home. he arrives to find that sthenelus's SON, his BROTHER's SON has been fucking his wife and usurped his throne. and for a minute, it looks like he's about to go to war again, but he's tired. he's tired and it's his best friend's son, and it's a woman he never really got to know or care about and it's a throne he never asked for. so he just leaves. he takes his spoils, gets back on a boat and leaves. for ithaca.

he doesn't know how odysseus is going to react when he shows up. but, as it turns out, he didn't have to worry about that because odysseus isn't there. but penelope is. wise, patient penelope who listens to him talk about the war at troy and odysseus and how he's so tired. penelope who says, stay.

so he stays. and he waits for odysseus. and he learns things that aren't war. he learns what it feels like to carry a little boy on his shoulders. he learns what it feels like to have dirt under his nails and a sore back after a long day's work at the plow. he listens to penelope talk about odysseus, and shares his own stories too. he learns that he likes penelope, a lot.

enough that when the suitors start pouring in, he fends them off as best he can. he won't marry her - he won't do that to odysseus, but he will help her unravel the funeral shroud she's weaving each night. he will hold her while she cries for her husband who is likely dead at the bottom of the sea. he will start teaching telemachus his way around the blade when he asks.

and when odysseus does return home? he almost gets stabbed. odysseus is FURIOUS that someone he TRUSTED would come to court his wife, but that's not what happened at all, he's been protecting her the best he can. teaching his son to do the same. he's been waiting for odysseus with them. it's a teary reunion, of course, and then it's a bloodbath and then all the suitors are dead. he washes the blood out from underneath his nails for the last time.

see? do you see? it's about being HAUNTED by the legacy of a man you didn't even know, and it's about EXPECTATIONS and it's about figuring out what YOU want instead of what you're 'supposed' to want, and it's about GROWING past being a warrior and learning to be a PERSON, and it's about LOVING someone in a way that's beyond platonic or romantic. do you get it now? do you get it?

[siingomuse]

See, I like Achilles. I think his love story with Patroclus is absolutely beautiful, and I agree he had some amazing moments. But does that mean I excuse what he did? Gods no, of course not. He was definitely a bad person. I mean- killing Troilus in his fathers temple? What the fuck, man? That's messed up. (There are some versions where he rapes Troilus, but I like to ignore those ones.) But was he that bad? Yes- during the Trojan war, that is. But he was a young man gone to war too soon- he was 17 when it started. But before that? No. He was trying to avoid the war, and then when he went to the war, well, he had to be bad. And he was. He was like, really bad. He had pride, but not hubris. I mean, that's what caused the death of Patroclus. Refusing to fight because Agamemnon hurt his pride, and then Patrocus donned his armour, blah blah blah Hector killed Patroclus, blah blah Achilles got really mad. So yeah. I like Achilles- but he's a stupid, prideful guy and his actions led to the death of multiple people, INCLUDING his boyfriend. Not the smartest or best guy, clearly.

[dootznbootz]

I don't think Greek Mythology retellings/adaptions/inspired/etc. are necessarily "evil"...but I DO think people REALLY need to understand that there's a huge difference between the actual mythology and certain media.

I feel like people have to basically do a "Fandom ___" to say the different versions. Like "PJO ___", "Hades game ___", "TSOA ___". For it to be understood that these depictions are DIFFERENT. I'm saying this as someone who grew up reading PJO and still has a soft spot for it. But as someone who really loves Greek Mythology as well, I sometimes get really SAD.

I'm going to use the comparison of Howl's Moving Castle with it's Book Vs. Movie. I enjoy both!!! But they are honestly very different. In the movie there is no "sister swap", Markle isn't a young teenager, Sophie doesn't throw weed killer at Howl, and many more moments. But I enjoy both because even though there are changes they still keep components that are ingrained into the characters!

In some Greek Myth retellings/adaptations/stories/etc., characters are...SO different from the source material. That's fine...Choose what you want with your story... But folks should know that the modern adaptations are NOT the source material!!!

It bothers me that a lot of these wonderful myths and stories are twisted up and seen so differently because of a modern version of them. You can have that character be "awful" or a certain way in your story. But I almost feel that as fans, it's not good to generalize them or see it as "This is the truth". People are hating the mythological figure when it's only in that interpretation they are like that.

In PJO, Ares is "Zeus' favorite", isn't a good dad, a misogynist, etc. The actual myths? One of his Epithets is LITERALLY "Feasted by Women", in the Iliad everybody basically bullies him with Zeus literally saying he hates him. He cries when he learns one of his sons is killed in the war. He literally kills someone about to rape his daughter. Ares isn't perfect but it makes me sad with how he's viewed and talked about when it's only in PJO he's like that. Same with Dionysus. Read the Bacchae, you'll love it.

In Lore Olympus, Apollo rapes Persephone (noticing the fact that modern takes on the myths add rapes where there never were hmmmmm) when he never did in any of the myths.

In TSOA, Thetis is cruel when in the Iliad, she is such a loving mother to Achilles. She grieved alongside her son over Patroclus. Also with Agamemnon. In Ipheginia at Aulis, Agamemnon is a MESS. He adored his children.

In Circe, Odysseus is viewed as a selfish man who ONLY hurts others and doesn't care about his family when that is LITERALLY his one consistent character trait. HE is actually the one who is the victim of rape. Circe was never raped.

Medusa is only a victim in Ovid's, a Roman man, works. Not in GREEK mythology. She was just a cool monster. Leave Perseus alone. Poseidon and Medusa actually had a consensual relationship in Greek Mythology!

These adaptations/retellings/inspired by/etc. whatever anybody wants to call them, are not the real myths! They may be similar in some ways but to just generalize them or hate the deity/mythological figure because of something they did in the new media feels fucked up!

You can enjoy these new stories. There's nothing wrong with that!!! But know they're not the real myths. Maybe even label it as "I hate ____'s version of ____". As that makes it clear what version you're talking about.

[anotheroceanid]

Achiles: Fuck, what happened to Odysseus' skin?

Patroclus: He had an affair with the Athenide and sired a child on her

Achiles: Wasn't she a maiden goddess? So she cursed him for taking her virginity?

Patroclus: Yes, but she wasn't one that swore to be an eternal maiden like her mother. No, she didn't curse him, the two of them get along quite well

Achiles: So why does Odysseus look like that and why does that have to do with Athenide?

Patroclus: He looks like that because the god of the sun apparently has a grudge against lovers of the Athenide

Achilles: And what the Athenide thinks of that?

Patroclus: she thinks Odysseus just passed off another god, she's a bit dense about some things.

Agamemnon: WE COULD BE WINNING THIS WAR IN A DAY BUT HE REFUSES TO SLEEP WITH HER AGAIN AAAAAA

[jewishdainix]

My thoughts on paris the musical 💛 (spoilers!)

Stuff I liked:

The characterization!

When it comes to illiad interpitations I don't usually like it when Helen falls in love with Paris - here it works and its in large part of the characterization. Helen is aware and smart and contenplative. She isn't made into a "Strong Female Character" but neither is she made the dumb pretty face. And paris is a fool! She calls him a fool! They are still in love with eachother. Like I can't explain how well the creators managed to balance these traits that should contradict eachother! But they work so well in this.

Menelaus regreting going after helen and seeking revenge when he sees she loved paris. It did the characters and how they were presented well.

Another thing is helen being a "human counterpart" of aphrodite. Chilling.

I have to write a part about achilles and patroclus's characterizations. They are not what I expected, but I fell abseloutly in love with them! Achilles being cocky, patroclus being loud (WHOS SHOUTING?) just sitting at the side draped on eachother making comments. It was incredible. It makes the closer momente between them, like patroclus telling achilles he knows about the child inside him BECAUSE HE WAS THERE WHEN ACHILLES WAS JUST A CHILD, BECAUSE HE WAS A CHILD WITH HIM, hit so hard and be so fascinating. Same with when patroclus is talkign to agamemnon.

Cassandra. Enough said.

The music!

So fucking good. I love rock operas so much. I did have a bit of a hard time adjusting to the sound, since I don't listen to music from that time period much, like. At all. And there were dome songs I had to skip but it was soooo good. So fucking good.

PARIS, YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. Just. Fucking everything about cassandra. I swear my thoughts are more coherent than this. I swear. Cassandra's parts are sooo briliant. I can't even put those thoughts down. Its so good. Honestly listen to paris the musical if only for cassandra. Fucking hell she and her music are incredible.

Ulysses's small part in 'oh paris' was another thing I'm in love with. I love how it shows his cunning and her warning. It proves her right and I don't think they even talk to eachother in that song but it still manages to paint a dynamic/contrust between them. Fucking incredible.

Most parts about ulysses. Seaks peace and security lonely his road to achieve them . What if I commited murder

The song where the trojans were calling paros a a slut. That was so funny

Hell or high water. I will cry

Stuff I didn't like:

This mudical feels like it has a lot of loose ends with the themes it presents. Like, I really like the theme presented in "a head without a heart" of the importance of both athena and aphrodite . It was mentioned later by ulysses (another cassandra ulysses connection :D!!!) but it was such an interesting idea especially with how it relates to paris.

I wish they explored more all they set up in "charole". It was such a good opening song and I wish its themes appeared more throughout the musical.

I really don't like "love has power". Like as a theme its good but giving it to hector was a fucking waste. He did not deserve this theme, he did not show anything related to it. And furthermore I didn't like how the song sounded.

Adding it back in the finale was ok, but the fact that it was first sung by hector makes it feel so unconnected and weak.

I wish the musical was longer, so itd allow for ecploring the characters more thougrowly. And the music is very good, so it wouldnt hurt to have more songs. I wanted to know the characters better. It should have been longer.

Closing thoughts:

Please listen to this musical!! It is so worth your time and it is so awsome.

[johaerys-writes]

If you were to do a fancast of your fav The Iliad characters, who would the actors/actresses be?

Oh boy careful what you ask for anon haha. I have to admit that I'm not a huge fancast person, mainly because I can usually *see* the characters in my head too clearly to be able to find a real life reference that matches that, but because of this ask I did some (extensive) research. Not all the people I've chosen are actors so not sure if they'd be able to play in a film but anyway this is fantasy land and it doesn’t matter lol.

The Achaeans

Achilles

I should preface this by saying that I've never found a faceclaim for Achilles that is close to how I imagine him; in my mind his features are quite unusual because of his divine blood, he stands out from other humans in a way that isn't easy to explain. But if I absolutely had to choose I think I'd go with a young Travis Fimmel for Iliad Achilles. He's still not 100% how I imagine him but I think some photos of his from the 90s and early 00s hit close!

Agamemnon

I honestly cannot come up with a better Agamemnon than Kostas Kazakos, the Greek actor who played Agamemnon in the 1977 Michalis Kakogiannis film "Iphigeneia". If he had longer hair it would be even better, but this is how I imagine him most of the time!

Ajax

It was really hard to choose someone for Ajax.... Can Yaman is quite close to how I imagine him, only picture him as fucking MOUNTAIN lmao.

Menelaus

I imagine Menelaus as a redhead and with a gorgeous wild mane, so I think Paul Bullion would fit this quite well!

Odysseus

Another tough one, but I looove Michiel Huisman for Odysseus, I think he would really do him justice.

Diomedes

I couldn't find a single person to match the way I envision him, so imagine him as a mix of Busola Peters and Majesh Jadu!

Patroclus

Oh gosh. Okay okay LISTEN. Patroclus is hands down THE hardest to pin down for me, even in my head his appearance changes so like... I have never managed to find anyone that is close to how I imagine him. I chose Tamino, not because he resembles Pat in my head 100% but based on vibes mostly, just those sad fucking eyes and his profile...... I'm obsessed with him face

Also just imagine him with a beard because I do picture Iliad Patroclus with a beard haha.

Tumblr is being dumb and not letting me add any more pictures, so I'll have to do a pt 2 for the Trojans (bc you bet I have more fancasts lol!! If I could give a face to every single person in the Iliad I would)

[menelaiad]

fucks me up how menelaus is the one who escapes the curse and agamemnon is there to witness it.

like everyone in the house of atreus (atreus down, because this is when the curse gets like ... re...cursed) is defined by an act of violence to a family member/loved one that is caused by or committed by them (i say this because thyestes is a grey area. he rapes his daughter which leads to her suicide so that's .... that's enough tbh. he sucks for that)

except menelaus.

and i mean an event that is well documented. that is recorded and that defines their life. examples: atreus killing his nephews and feeding them to his brother, agamemnon killing his daughter, aegisthus killing his uncle and then his cousin and orestes killing his mother. these are DEFINING moments in these characters stories. their stories are incomplete without them.

i added this point cause people will say: menelaus started the war (which he did in a way. i dont dispute that) but that's not his moment. menelaus is often lost in the narrative of the trojan war. that's not HIS moment if you will. (besides the iliad is about achilles, menelaus' moment wouldn't be in that).

menelaus' moment comes AFTER troy. when he's encouraged to kill helen. THIS will be his defining moment of violence that secures his place in this family and drags him down with them.

and he doesn't do it.

and i don't think he ever intended to. menelaus is so DISTANCED from the curse by this choice/decision that he doesn't. even. die. he never actually dies. never mind has a nice life, lives to a ripe old age, dies calmly in his bed etc. etc. he just doesn't die - now that just ain't the cursed house of atreus way.

now. here's where aga comes in. i think aga knew iphigenia was his 'moment'. like he knew once he'd done that. he was no better than his father and uncle etc. (i think it's why he goes downhill over the course of the war and we get a lot in the iliad about him refusing to go home empty handed. he didn't kill his daughter and throw himself on the sacrificial altar of this curse for NOTHING and also why he goes to death so easily in the tragedies yknow? he just walks into the jaws of death. knowing its coming. fully accepting it. and. honestly? believing he deserves it) BUT the possibility that he sees menelaus throw his moment away and refuse it.

i cannot imagine the peace that must bring agamemnon. to have protected this brother through shit after shit. through exile. atreus. thyestes. aegithus. a war. and then to see him separate himself from it all. aga sees that menelaus is no longer bound by all this. menelaus is going to be safe. and perhaps that's another reason he goes to death so easily. he has nothing left. he cannot rebuilt what he had with clytemnestra. as far as he's concerned orestes is dead and so is iphigenia. (elektra is locked up at this point im sure? im sure cly and aeg keep her prinsoner so he probably doesnt even know where she is) and menelaus is safe. there's nothing really left for aga at this point.

and aga and menelaus part on bad terms? they part on bad terms and never see each other again and their lives take such different paths? the story of these two brothers is something that is so personal to me.

[patrochillesvibes]

O and I have an other question how do you think Achilles will react once he finds out about the fact that Patroclus had slept Deidameia. Because I do believe Patroclus haven’t to Achilles about it .

<3 <3 <3

Ah, the single plot point in TSoA I disagree with.

🎵How do you solve a problem like Pyrrhus🎶

So if we’re all gonna suck Homer��s dick, then let’s all get on the same page that Deidamia isn’t in the Iliad. Or the Odyssey. You also gotta be careful with any source material mentioning Deidamia as most of this content was part of a smear campaign by the Italians coughDantecough.

Pyrrhus is such a random character if you think about it. Achilles was not married, otherwise Agamemnon wouldn’t keep trying to get him to marry his seemingly endless supply of daughters. Pyrrhus isn’t labeled as a bastard, but what else could he be? Achilles would’ve had to have knocked up some chick.

And isn’t it strange that Achilles would do this? I don’t want to say it’s not in character, but it seems strange compared to his prophecy-focused life. (Also, Patroclus and Achilles don’t have little bastards running around the camp, so do we really believe they’re fucking the slaves? If they’re fucking the slaves, where are the babies? Birth control and abortions were not that good in 1250 BCE. But I’m getting super off topic now.)

This is why I personally believe Achilles found a random baby, adopted it, and had Mother feed him ambrosia.

I’m very passionate about ^this headcanon of mine.

Now back to TSoA…

First off, remember that Patroclus is a LIAR. He is not just full of bologna, he’s made out of bologna. He wants us to believe he’s a feminist? Anti-war? A doctor? Achilles is perfect? Patroclus PLEASE!

But you have to respect the lies because TSoA is essentially an autobiography and lying is like the first law of autobiography writing.

I’d also like to point out the clever literary trick at the end of TSoA. The book ends with Patroclus and Thetis chatting about Achilles. She says “Speak, then” to get Patroclus to share his memories. Thus, the book is not so much an account of his life, but essentially all the memories he had to share with her. He wants to show her how glorious her son was, the side she never got to see, the human nature she shunned, Achilles’ mortality. So of course he’s going to highlight the good, even enhance it as well as downplay or even lie about the bad.

But back to your question…

What happened at Skyros? Patroclus wants us to believe a lot of non-con was going on. I low-key have a very messed up theory about what actually happened and why it happened, but I don’t want to get into it rn a blogger on here might be unhappy bcs of a related ask I coincidentally just sent them. So for simplicity's sake, let’s assume that the non-con did indeed happen. I think he told Achilles a half-truth. Something to the effect of mentioning having comforted Deidamia and given her an official farewell (of the husbandly kind) on his behalf. He used a lot of double-meaning words to allow Achilles to interpret as he pleased.

And how did he interpret what Patroclus told him? First he was relieved that he would not have to deal with her again. Then he was his usual dumb blonde self (Patroclus calls this 'trusting', Pat pls) and took the words at face value. And I wouldn't blame him for it. When traumatic things happen to you, you do what you can to cope.

And please don’t take this as victim blaming or non-con denial, but the last lines of Chapter 13 never sat quite right with me.

Sorry to keep harping on the lying. Part of me thinks the scene with Deidamia was either a hallucination-false memory sequence to reinforce that patrochilles is 2-bodies-1-soul -what happens to Achilles happens to Pat; and part of me thinks this was Pat’s sly way of showing Thetis how she hurt Achilles by enabling the non-con. Sadly, we'll never know the truth, so it's up to you what you want to believe.

I hope this rambling rant answered your question. Thank you for the ask! I LOVE LOVE LOVE The Song of Achilles and am capable of ranting and raving about it for hours at a time 😘

[table-top-romulan-playing-games]

Chryses: hello, king Agamemnon, i have brought adequate reverence and offers to you and wish to plead for the safe return of my daughter please.

All of the other kings and generals: Yeah, he brought sufficient offers, you should give her back.

Agamemnon: No. She's my concubine and im sending her back to my palace where i will have her adorn my couch every night, fuck you old man :/

Chryses: -Goes back to the temple of Apollo where he is the priest- pls save my daughter.

Apollo: -Agrees and sets a plague onto the Acheans bc wtf Agamemnon-

----- later -----

Achilles: Hey, the prophet we've had with us since we before we even declared war, the one you supposedly dont like bc of the prophecy he told about Artemis wanting a Sacrifice, says he knows why there is a plague upon us rn.

Agamemnon: fine, he may speak.

The prophet: you will protect me from his anger wont you achilles?

Achilles: sure, he shouldnt get angry with you anyway, ur just the messenger and it was something we fucked up so...

Prophet: ok, well the plague is here bc you wouldnt give back the daughter of Chryses when he asked you nicely and gave you offering, so he asked Apollo to smite you and Apollo agreed you fucked up, so now if you want to fix it you have to give her back, plus reverence to Apollo, and you cannot ask for anything in return :/

Agamemnon: THATS BULLSHIT! SHE IS MY PRIZE I WILL NOT LET HER GO!

Achilles: I think you should listen to him, you already have 6x the amount of treasure and war prizes than anyone else, and if you do, then upon the next raid, we shall garauntee 3x what you had recieved this raid.

Agamemnon: actually u kno wat fuck u i'll just take Breseis instead since u wanna take mine away :/

Achilles:....

Achilles: listen here you lazy ass petty bitch, were it not for the goddess Athena holding me back i would run you through with my sword, but she gave me permission to lash at you with my tongue. You have done nothing but order people around and sit on your ass, you have done the least and have gotten the most reward where as i and mine have done the most and get scrap for reward, and the one actual war prize i had recieved fairly you wish to take away bc you want to be petty that a god is forcing you to give back one of dozens of concubines??? That we all agreed you should have gave back and refused, causing this plague in first place.

Agamemnon: U brought this doom singing prophet, that i didnt bother replacing 10 years ago, into the council tent, so, yes.

Achilles: well then fuck u, im about to become the demigod of petty, eat my ass

[baejax-the-great]

Hi, I saw on one of your ao3 comments that you think Homers' Achilles is on the spectrum. This is a really interesting idea to me, but I don't know that much about autism - could you elaborate on why you think that? (Also, I think all of your fics are amazing ☺️)

Autism as a word and diagnosis did not exist in ancient Greece, and I have no idea if there would have been a similar concept about it (doubt it) or if more likely people with certain autistic traits would have been considered to have a certain type of personality. So for me to say that Homer deliberately wrote Achilles as "autistic" is a little tongue in cheek.

That said, reading the Iliad I did have a moment of "Ohhhh, dude's autistic I get it." Some people might look at my reasoning and say, "well, that could be a whole other thing with these other reasons," and that's fair. This is just how it came across to me and why.

Sense of justice/fairness. This is one of the more obscure autistic traits (that often gets misunderstood and shit upon by people), but it's how the book begins, so I'll start here. Autistic people are more likely to learn and follow rules to a T. This gets rolled into the trait of "rigid thinking" and has been related to autistic people's preference for solid routines. To think about where you lie with this trait, one example is the "walk" signal at a crosswalk. Some people jaywalk when the road is very clear and no one is around. Some people jaywalk when the road ISN'T clear because they don't give a fuck. And some people will wait for that light to turn white no matter what because that's what you are supposed to do and there are rules (although culture/country of origin will also affect how much relevance traffic lights have in your life).

This is a rule, but it has little do to with justice. So to figure out where you stand in terms of justice sensitivity, another metric is how angry you feel when you watch someone cut in line and not get punished for it. Some of us will sigh and move on with our life because dicks are everywhere, whatever, and some people will have a harder time letting go because this person broke a rule in an obviously unfair way, and they should be punished for that.

This trait does not mean that autistic people have a better sense of what justice is or what rules/laws are "just." That is all very subjective. But this trait does result in a stronger negative reaction to seeing those rules/laws violated.

Such as rage.

Achilles fits the bill here in both in terms of rigid thinking and his sense of justice. His reputation in the Greek tradition is as someone who was very educated. In fact, he is the most educated with regards to law and religion than the rest of the Achaeans thanks to his time with Chiron. More than that, he actually cared about what he was taught and was considered kind of a stick-in-the-mud in terms of believing that the armies should follow the rules and customs of their people at all times and that violating their own laws was bad, even if you really, really wanted to bang a hot chick.

When Agamemnon decides to take Briseis, he is breaking a Rule. The common interpretation of what happens here is that he has violated Achilles' pride and honor in doing so, and Achilles loses his shit. That's valid. To me it read a little differently. I mean, for one, Achilles is 100% correct in the first book. Agamemnon pissed off the gods in a way he shouldn't have bringing plague on everyone, and how does he solve this? By agreeing to do the thing Achilles told him to do to solve it and then immediately violating their customs to steal from Achilles, bringing down a plague of "Achilles is not going to help you anymore."

Achilles cries to his mom that he wants the gods to fuck over the Greeks to prove Achilles right, which is deeply immature, but also really makes sense to me. Like, Agamemnon did this shitty, illegal, rules-breaking thing, and he needs to feel the consequences of that action. Achilles isn't a god who can bring down a plague, but his mommy is, so get fucked, Agamemnon. It's Zeus time.

During the time Achilles is out of the fighting, he is routinely called hard-hearted, stubborn, and other words to indicate he will not be swayed, which again speaks to his rigidity of understanding how things should be done.

The Way Achilles Talks About His Emotions. Achilles very clearly states what he is feeling throughout the book, and he often restates it. We get it, bro. You're mad. And then sad. Really, really sad. While this is almost definitely for the audience to understand his feelings and just how deep they run, Homer also could have just told us outright what he was thinking without having Achilles say it out loud repeatedly. It also felt to me that Achilles talks about his feelings far more often and bluntly than other characters do, but again this could be because the story revolves around his 'rage.'

Regardless, even if it was purely for audience benefit, this is a behavior I have noticed with my adult ND friends, which is basically after a childhood feeling confused by what other people around them are doing or why they are reacting to things in a certain way, they have a strategy of very bluntly expressing themselves and where they are at in this situation. It can be far easier than trying to follow the subtleties of NT culture and just get whatever issue it is out in the open. Saying to someone "I am angry at you" can come off as overly aggressive and blunt depending on context, but it cuts to the heart of the matter. We can compare this with Odysseus, who does not express any very deep emotions at all in the Iliad (other than the fact that Thersites should shut the fuck up, anyway), presumably because that's nobody else's business.

The Embassy. Achilles' point to Odysseus that this entire war was started over a man stealing a woman is so correct and so ignored. He looks at this situation and says: Paris stole Helen, and Agamemnon rallied all the Achaeans to come make war with Troy. Agamemnon steals Briseis, and I'm meant to... keep fighting for him? In what way does this make sense?

Everyone around him sees it from a completely different perspective, basically that Achilles got angry over a girl. To Achilles this is not what it is about at all. And I'm with him on this. If stealing a woman is a sin egregious enough for thousands of Greeks to spend 10 years attempting to sack a city, then it is the same amount of egregious for Agamemnon to take Briseis and he's lucky Achilles didn't kill him immediately and sack Argos. He's getting off easy, which Achilles tells him.

Reading Odysseus lay out his argument followed by Achilles cutting him down with that bit of logic was like, yeah, I'm with Achilles, I don't even think he's being stubborn I just think he's right.

In the embassy chapter, Achilles also has his famous line about despising men who say one thing but mean another. Being very truthful and having difficulty noticing lies is another common trait of autism, and it would make sense for Achilles to find the dishonesty of his colleagues deeply annoying.

Old British scholars called him a sociopath. This might seem like a weird one, but I'm adding it into evidence. When I read the Iliad, I see Achilles as a very emotional person. Given that half the book is about his grief over Patroclus, I find calling him incapable of caring about others incredibly bizarre. But in addition to determining that these scholars who wrote these batshit essays have never once in their life had a friend, much less a friend that they loved, this kind of fits with how a certain type of old-fashioned scholar understands autism. I've actually been at neuroscience talks with crusty old assholes who talk about how autistics and orphans are incapable of empathy, and then use evidence that really just says to me they express empathy in a different way. (Yes, orphans. For real. A real talk I went to in like 2015. Did you know that orphans don't have feelings and don't care about the feelings of others. /s) Add to the old British tradition of their feral private school kids (which I believe they call public school? idk those assholes in blazers, you know the ones) literally caning each other for being smaller, weaker, or just different, and this to me is solid evidence that Achilles is neurodivergent and unwittingly awoke the bloodlust in these old (dead) bastards.

Speech Patterns. Not being able to read Ancient Greek, I can't actually say much about this one, but multiple scholars have commented that the way Achilles speaks in the Iliad is different to all the others. He has a unique way of speaking. Again, this is not necessarily an autistic trait, but it is common for autistic people to have different speech patterns than NT people, so it's more just a "hmmm, maybe" than actual evidence.

I feel like I'm forgetting other little things, but I'd have to fully reread the Iliad with this in mind to jog my memory, and maybe one day I will. TLDR; Achilles has a very rigid way of thinking and an uncommon way of expressing his emotions.

And as always, autism is a spectrum. Anything I've written about here isn't necessarily true of any autistic person out in the world.

[gemsofgreece]

“Certain” foreigners: Modern Greeks have nothing in common with Ancient Greeks

Meanwhile, in Iliad, Rhapsody I, with no exaggeration:

Calchas: Look there’s a problem, Apollo is angry and you, Agamemnon, have to give the girl to her father to appease the god

Agamemnon: Who gives a shit about the god, why should only I give my prize back, am I the malakas of the gang or what? If you take her from me, I am gonna do the same to someone else, especially that asshole Achilles who people respect and thus must be destroyed

Achilles: WTF son of a bitch (literally) if you take my prize I ‘d rather see all our people die than help you out

A little later in Iliad, also in Rhapsody I:

Achilles: MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

Thetis, jumping out of the sea like Harry Potter from the lake in the Goblet of Fire: WHO HURT YOU MY BOY? TELL MOMMY AND I ‘LL CUT THEIR ASS

Achilles: Mom, Agamemnon showed disrespect to me, please persuade Zeus to start killing all the Greeks for revenge

Thetis: Your request sounds totally reasonable, cutie pie, mommy will try her best

Thetis: *flies to Olympus like Superman*

And immediately after, we’re still in Rhapsody I, can you believe?

Thetis: I helped you once Zeus and now you must help me back, it’s not like I helped you out of my good heart without expecting a future payback

Zeus: can you please get the fuck out before Hera sees me talking to someone without her permission?

Thetis: if you don’t grant my baby boy’s wish you assh-

Zeus: okay so you essentially ask me to take another beating from Hera, that’s good, that’s fine, it’s not like I am dead inside already. This woman is obsessed with me I swear, she always points out how everything I do is a mistake. This marriage has been taking years off of my eternity. Anyway okay, I promise, leave now, and some other religion god help me

Hera: Zeus?

Zeus: *shit, shit, shit* Yes Hera, Goddess of Goddesses, only love of my life?

Hera: Did you do things without asking me again, you sly rat?

Zeus: I AM A MAN AND I AM THE HEAD OF THIS MOUNTAIN AND I WILL DO ANYTHING I WANT. SEE, IT’S YOUR FAULT I CAN’T STAND YOUR GRUMPINESS AND HAVE TO LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR SOME JOY, YOU STIFF SHREW, DON’T MAKE ME COME THERE

Hephaestus: oh Mom don’t get sad, this clown of a father is a well known asshole but the fucker is strong and nobody wants to deal with this, okay? So let’s all eat to the point of death if we were mortals and forget about this

*Everyone laughs at him for being disabled*

*After a fight, abuse threats, child accusing the father for neglect, enough food to kill an army and the mocking of their son’s disability, Zeus and Hera go happily to bed together*

Seriously who needs phylogenetic analysis and comparisons of Greek DNA when there’s Iliad’s Rhapsody I, amirite folks

[littlesparklight]

Why do Patrochilles fans always seem to forget about the Trojan women and children do they not matter?

To be fair, there are probably several reasons, and, I'd guess, no matter which other reasons there might be, being uncomfortable with the violence and the cruelty is probably a big reason.

Which is neither strange nor wrong!

But - well. This is about war. War in a society where slavery is a thing and where, specifically, the captives taken are enslaved. If (general) you like an Achaean character in the Trojan war narrative, then your blorbo absolutely has traumatized an unknown number of women personally by killing members of their natal and/or potentially marital family, long before Troy falls. And are, at the very least, using them as slave labour.

And a smaller number of said captive women are serving as personal status objects, including serving in their captor's beds. (And, you clearly don't need to be one of these ~special~ slaves for this to happen either, if circumstances change, as Diomede (the woman Achilles sleeps with/next to the night of the embassy) shows.)

(The discomfort is, presumably, also part of why some people are working overtime in trying to soften and cutiefy the Odysseus-Astyanax situation with ~he saves him~ AUs or just general angst and regret in the moment and milking it afterwards. I had to see "father son duo" in connection with fucking Odysseus and Astyanax a couple days ago, and, ugh. Like, sorry, but even when Odysseus isn't the killer he seems to always come up with/champion the idea! Make your peace with it instead of having Odysseus cry as if he fucking CARES about this one child that he's advocating for murdering. (I would not really think it odd if Odysseus potentially has PTSD from this, but man, the way I've seen it used just makes me pissed off, sorry not sorry. Astyanax is basically just a prop.)

Anyway, ok.

I have no idea if TSoA is actually the most usual way for shippers to get into Patrochilles any more, but it still seems like that? And TSoA works very, very hard to soften and smooth out all and any uncomfortable bits. The Troilus incident doesn't exist, and the Achilles and Patroklos are basically running a ~women's shelter~ and not doing anything questionable with the women with their power or whatever.

If this is where you come into Patrochilles specifically and the Trojan war in general, no wonder you'd like to keep ignoring all the unpleasant bits. Which like. Fine. If they would keep to TSoA, but usually they don't.

The Hades game, too, did its work of presenting a more palatable Achilles. It is post-war, so basically nothing comes up, and the Achilles we get is unexplainedly regret- and shameful over his earlier behaviour and actions. I say unexplainedly not because I couldn't necessarily see this change, but it's not actually shown to us. We're just shown a personality that isn't actually very/at all connected to what those of us who knows the Iliad and the Odyssey have seen.

Even the Odyssey doesn't show us an Achilles who regrets anything of what he did (and he's proud of his son's achievements, even if Odysseus doesn't enumerate them in detail). What Achilles in the Odyssey regrets is being dead, specifically, and he seems rather depressed over being so.

So, again, if you come in to Patrochilles and the Hades game, it's once again easy to just... ignore stuff you don't want to touch on (even more so, since it's (long) post-war, which is undoubtedly a plus, genuinely).

The thing is, though - when you start dipping into the actual Trojan war, even just by reading, say, Achilles' wiki page, especially Troilus is right there. And making jokes (I have seen several) about "what would Achilles need Lesbian women for, Agamemnon, you idiot!!", is just... unpleasant. What are enslaved women used for, huh? Sexuality jokes have no place in this instance, just because someone might be uncomfortable and/or clinging to "Achilles is totally and only gay and doesn't fuck women".

But, tl; dr; no I don't think that, in general, most Patrochilles shippers think the Trojan (and every other woman who was enslaved during these ten years) women and the children matter. They're here for the ship.

And there is not really anything wrong with that, but the way the war (and the women, children etc) are usually dealt with (or not) in the course of that is extremely lacking because it's basically all whitewashed. (And Hektor gets used as some sort of handy ship-obstacle in any way they like to. Leave Hektor alone, damn it.)

[rosquinn]

Hi Roski! I have a question, would you mind to help, please?

Okay, so the other when I was wandering through the shelves of my local library I found our that they have a copy of Madeline's Miller Circe... And I was thinking that maybe I should give it a try? 😅

I know that it's not mythology accurate but as long as the plotline is well-written... Idk maybe I will enjoy in spite of it 🤷🏻‍♀️ Do you is it a good idea?

I just wanted to know if you believe is worth the time or nor

Also, same goes for Achilles's song. They don't have it at the library, but I thought that if I enjoyed Circe I should try it to? 🤔

i used to be a huge madelline miller fan *vaguely gestures at her short story about galatea i still have in my bookshelf for some reason* but i realized she, well, uh, sucks

it's not about her writing, (it's excessively "poetic" and decorated in my opinion but that's subjective) it's that her interpretations are kind of. bad?

i'm gonna elaborate under the cut about why i don't like her (long rant and tw for *mentions of s/a*)

-she victimizes her female main character and makes her go through traumatic experiences to erase and excuse all the bad stuff she's done... "circe turned odysseus' men into pigs bc they tried to assault her" yeah. no. she forced odysseus to sleep with her and turned his men into pigs because she felt like it. i understand you want a feminist badass witch but just. no. she isn't a cute uwu unfairly exiled goddess. what she did to odysseus is sexual abuse.

-she apparently hates women that aren't circe. made thetis, i repeat, our thetis, MOTHER thetis, a homophobic and overprotective mom who wants to kill patroclus in SOA for some reason (wasn't she literally the one who sent patroclus to the war with achilles..... miller..aren't you a classics major..). she did to her what other adaptations do to demeter, basically. and for no reason at all. but i guess her cute baby achilles who is doomed by the narrative can't have a nice mom who let him do whatever he wanted to because that would make him RUDE and EVIL and her character(s) can't have bad qualities. she also made achilles's wife, deidameia, who in some versions is raped by him, a “slut that gets in the way of your gay ship” archetype. she also made her rape achilles for some reason??? and that is fucking horrible

-baby-fied patroclus. he speaks like a stupid teenager girl stereotype in soa and is pretty much a useless human being whose entire personality is simping for achilles. that is not him. he DID fight in the trojan war, he was a SKILLED fighter, not a useless twig, he is described as tall and handsome, he healed some warriors, he is SAVAGE, bro literally broke kebriones's head with a rock in front of his brother and made fun of it??? he tried to climb the walls of troy and conquer it by himself??? he told achilles to stop being a bitch and move his ass??? and then in soa he's a useless piece of shit who DIDN'T EVEN FIGHT IN THE WAR, thinks of himself as weak and was thinking about achilles until the moment he died. sorry to break it to you but his last words in the iliad weren't "omg achilles no😥😥". he threw a whole essay at hector about how he didn't kill shit, it was apollo who beat him and hector's about to get dragged. and when his ghost came back to talk to achilles, it was to tell him to STOP CRYING and KILLING PEOPLE and BURN HIS BODY ALREADY. she completely erased his character. sorry.

-glorified achilles wayyy too much. one thing that i hate about her is how she can't let anyone make mistakes. achilles isn't “noble and doomed by the narrative”. he knew pretty well where he was stepping in and didn't give two shits. he literally says in Iliad book 1 he's there for the mass murder, glory and nothing more. “why would i kill hector what has hector ever done to me” MY ASS. he also was kind of an insufferable bitch in the iliad. i'm tired of people making his decision of stop fighting look “heroic/noble/tragic/etc bc agamemnon is evil” because it was not. he stopped fighting for selfish reasons, treated everyone really bad and let his friends die. also, agamemnon isn't “evil” and achilles isn't “good”. they're both war criminals who act like 8 year olds and kidnap women. every achaean character is a bitch, has killed at least 6 people and enjoyed it. yes. even babyboy patroclus (book 16)

-i'm not even saying this as a person with greek ancestry or a pagan, because i am neither, but her depiction of the gods is TERRIBLE. just what is that whole thing of "gods want mortals to fear them so they worship them"??? that's not even how religion works??? gods can be and in fact are very nice to their worshippers?? why would you villainize cultural figures like that?? and why tf it always gotta be a EVIL FEMALE GODDESS trying to fuck up her main character's life for some reason?? athena wants to kill circe's son in circe and i'm pretty sure they don't even interact in the odyssey?? (maybe they did, i don't remember, but if it happened it was definitely NOT because of that) and why is hermes a manipulator?? and why is ODYSSEUS a manipulator??? you literally sexually assaulted him??? HELLO????

idk, it just feels like mc victimization and random female character villainization (she also put the whole blame of the trojan war on helen because she was “vain” and “selfish”??? didn't she spend the whole iliad blaming herself for the war and wishing to die??)

i don't really like it. it's not a good adaptation

also i'm not the best person to expand on this topic because i am not a gay man/mlm/nblm but some people on tumblr have explained why tsoa is basically mlm fetish and wattpad fujoshi looking crap and they do have a point (the relationship is so stereotyped tbh) so i encourage you to read their posts. i don't have them rn but i can dm them to you later if you want

AND finally, most people in her fanbase can't separate a wattpad fanfic (because that's what tsoa is) from the original text and think tsoa and circe are just like what homer wrote. “hector didn't know it was patroclus” HE FUCKING DID PATROCLUS KILLED 20 PEOPLE IN FRONT OF HIM IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE “patroclus died bc he wasn't a skilled warrior” HE HAS THE SECOND HIGHEST KILL COUNT IN THE WHOLE ILIAD AND WAS FULL OF HUBRIS. HE DIED BECAUSE HE TRIED TO FISTFIGHT A GOD “deidameia raped achilles” “thetis is homophobic” “odysseus is evil” “it was all helen's fault” “circe did nothing wrong” “athena is bad” no (and they act like not shipping patrochilles makes you homophobic which is. cmon. i personally think they def had something going on but it's never explicitly stated and you can't act like it is)

ik i got too aggressive but it's just bad imo, if you want to enjoy a good iliad/odyssey adaptation go play hades or listen to epic the musical or even play limbus company because i swear lc's odysseus, a literal old woman who committed identity fraud, is at least 80 times more in character than miller's babyboys

ADDITION: no i'm not going to dismember you for liking tsoa or circe. this is just a personal opinion. enjoy whatever you want i'm just a little guy and i can't stop you. have fun!