#lestat isn't evil

[joefangs]

There are so many discrepancies if we compare season 1 Louis' memories and season 2 recollections of his. He made Lestat look almost bad, devilish in season 1, blamed everything on him, and stayed clean with Claudia. In season 2, we can finally see the issues with his memories of Lestat. Even in season 1 Louis changed his words in front of Daniel. In S2 it kind of proved that Louis' collections were muddled. He changed his memories way too many times. At last he admitted to go on with Lestat's version. I mean, I know and I can confirm that Lestat has always been good as far as the definition of "a good vampire" can go, and all the things Louis said about him are not all true.

If I go according to the books, Interview with the vampire and The Vampire Lestat are two different books with different Lestats to be precise. TV Louis said that Lestat didn't hesitate to kill, but the book Lestat from the second book, said he made a grave mistake of making Claudia ( About who, he said that he loved his dark daughter, and he didn't want that fate for her. He regretted making a young fledgling because Marius warned him about his mistake of creating Armand that young) and other than that he vowed to never kill any innocents. He only killed the damned ones, and the ones who were about to die. Also, got me thinking, how can he kill innocent people, when he took care of his family in France, who were all human. Even his mother opposed his actions, but Lestat didn't listen. So, how can a century old vampire, who still cares about his human family, gives them financial support all along, can kill mercilessly. It just didn't add to my wits. Most important of all, he loved Louis, more than Nicki even and admitted it over and over again. He longed to be with Louis, not because he always felt lonely, but because he loved Louis the most, so much that he rejected Armand in the book.

Louis' recollections of Lestat in season 1 is filled with somewhat hatred, because at that moment he thought Armand was his saviour. In S2, he started to have some clarity, mostly thanks to Daniel, and finally we know what happened.

In the book, Lestat was there at the Theatre the Vampire, he did accuse Claudia for his attempted murder, but let me tell you, he wasn't even in his right mind at that time. Even so, at that time he didn't accuse his Louis, and looked for his love, asked Armand, who (the B***h he is) lied to him about Louis' whereabouts. Lestat was somehow tricked by Armand, his thinking didn't work, as he mentioned that everything went in a trance, and after he accused Claudia, he was taken away forcibly, and he screamed Louis, Louis but with no avail, and they again fed him blood, and he forgot everything. I think Armand used magic, or he fed something to Lestat so he doesn't protest. After all of these, Lestat looked for Louis, and asked Armand to help him, and that BHole said he will not.

So, what I can surmise is, whatever you watched in S1, do not entirely believe it. This is mostly because, Lestat wasn't the one who lost his mind and hurt his Louis entirely. Louis was the pioneer of trouble in their home. He wasn't satisfied, he didn't accept the dark gift completely, and despised Lestat for that. That physical fight between them you can see, Lestat was hurt the most, both physically and mentally. And now I understand, why Louis kept seeing Dreamstat over and over again. Because, his guilt made him conjure Lestat everytime he thought he wanted a "home" with Armand.

Finally, the last episode depicted almost what The Vampire Lestat book has. They didn't show it, but Louis came back to Lestat, which he said was 'you came back to me'. Here, Lestat talks about a world tour, which is his rock concert in San Francisco. Here, Louis asks him to take him, and Lestat complies ecstatically. Also, they hugged compassiontely after meeting each other, just as they showed in the series. However, TV version displayed it as a part of Interview with the Vampire book, which is in reality from the book The Vampire Lestat.

[pirateshelly]

I simply do not vibe with the idea that Louis begging Lestat to make Claudia a vampire was the single worst thing that ever happened to her, and that her fate was sealed from that moment. I just cannot imagine spending two whole seasons getting to know and love Claudia and thinking, maybe it would have been better and less tragic for her if she had just died in that fire at the age of 14. Because in spite of everything there is never any indication that Claudia doesn't still have an immense will and curiosity and desire to live!

And (possibly controversial opinion) I also can't imagine seeing the flashback in 2.07 of Louis on his knees sobbing and begging Lestat to save Claudia and being like "oh wow Louis is more selfish and horrifying than I realized" instead of recognizing that this is Louis at absolute rock bottom and thoroughly out of his mind

[briar--rising]

It is so funny to me when people try to argue about who's 'worse', Lestat or Armand. First of all, worse by what metric? By the way they treat humans? The way they treat Claudia? Or (as it seems most people are focused on) only the way they treat Louis? And if it's by the way they treat Louis, are you judging based on what you would find worse in a partner, or by what Louis does (bc I would argue he pretty clearly has an opinion on that based on the end of season 2).

And most importantly of all, who cares??? They are both TERRIBLE. Everyone in this show is terrible! You can like morally reprehensible characters. Armand is my personal blorbo, and what he does is horrific. I can feel bad for him, and enjoy watching him, and think that his actions are heinous, and reblog art and read fanfiction of him, and analyze him without excusing him, all at the same time! And so can you with whoever you like!

Pitting these characters against one another is absurd. "Which one is less abusive" is a question I guess you can ask, but it's not a very interesting one. Much more interesting is "Why are they abusive in these specific ways? What about their trauma and personality informs their actions? Why does Louis react the way he does to each of them? What does that say about Louis? What does this show say about domestic violence in general? Are the rules different for vampires? Or is abuse abuse? Do the victims determine who should get forgiveness? Or are certain actions inherently unforgivable? Can you forgive someone when their victim hasn't? Is any of this different in fiction rather than reality? etc etc etc." There are so many interesting questions posed by the juxtaposition between Lestat and Armand and the way they treat Louis, and none of them are "but which one is worse so I can forever villify that one and hold up the other one as the paragon of what's good and right and perfect for Louis"

[winepresswrath]

i am going to wind up on team #justiceforarmand but it's going to be so situational. justice for armand specifically during the period of time louis is all "oooh who needs labels." a very different kind of justice for armand on matters pertaining to claudia.

[prouvaireafterdark]

What do you think about the twitter discourse that they'll stop watching the show if Lestat is made a hero

lol I honestly don't care

Lestat is the main protagonist of the entire book series. no amount of wishing that wasn't the case is going to change that. if people want to stop watching the show because they hate him so much that they don't want to watch something that explores his tragic and complicated backstory and doesn't vilify him to the nth degree, then that's their business

[nereb-and-dungalef]

yeah i think i'm just gonna factor "waiting until the hype dies down" into all my media experiences. watched some of the iwtv tv show and i get to keep all my opinions in my head. it's great

[and-fishing-equipment]

i've started reading tvl and no amount of posts telling me there's a "huge tonal shift" could have prepared me for this HUGE TONAL SHIFT this is the funniest fucking thing i've ever read it genuinely goes like:

louis, narrator of iwtv: as i wandered the streets of paris, i wished most of all for death. i had called to god, to satan, anyone, to find meaning in it all. but for an evil creature such as myself there is no place in this world. there can be no love where this evil lies. it was as though a veil separated me from all that could be good and righteous. i did not deserve to love and be loved in return, not by claudia, lestat, armand. to attempt it would be a sisyphean task, a fools tale. and yet...... the need for hole from armand was so great. greater was only the need for........ living human blood.

lestat, narrator of tvl: hey guys, my name is lestat, you may know me because i'm really hot and sexy. english isn't my first language so sorry if i make any mistakes!! okay here's my story: after rotting beneath the earth for decades, my hot and sexy body has finally risen from the ground. i used to be depressed, but now i'm slutting it up again in the 20th century! first thing i did was get some (hot and sexy) new clothes and then wore them while riding my (hot and sexy) motorcycle and listening to bach on my sony walkman. while i was watching this super niche indie film (you've probably not heard of it) "apocalypse now" i realized that i'm so evil that i shouldn't exist. but then i realized what could make me deserve to live on this planet: rock n roll music.

[indelicateink]

one must embrace the dichotomy

whenever i see people woobifying lestat and saying he's not to blame etc. i'm just like how can you call yourself a lestat fan. his whole appeal is that he sucks massively but is also so lovable at the same time. you don't get him at all

[brawlingdiscontent]

It's devastating enough that Louis can't say 'I love you,' because they were the last words he said to Paul before Paul walked off the roof, but then you have Florence explicitly accusing him:

"You must've said something to him Louis, you must've said something to him...What did you say to him?... Paul's in hell because of you."

A whole new level of devastation! Florence assumes he taunted Paul ("you always had to have the last word") not knowing as she drives the knife in that the words he said were "I love you"! She has hit on Louis' fear that there's something rotten at his core. And Louis—with his internalized toxic masculinity and homophobia, his pathological need to not appear weak, his fundamentally Catholic worldview—carries the secret feeling (FOR YEARS! ALONE!), from his queerness, his ties to sex work, his exploitation of others, that he is a creature so sinful, so monstrous, so evil, that his love brings death and he's condemned his brother to hell!!

(When he asks 'is my very nature that of the devil?' (ep 3 title) -- it isn't a question about vampirism, not really, it's a question that's fundamentally about who he is at his core.)

And every further hit—when Florence sees the devil in his eyes, when he almost eats his nephew, when his nieces are afraid of him and Grace loses trust in him—serves as validation that this feeling is right and Paul's death was somehow his fault. And the guilt, and the blame, and the self-recrimination compound.

No fucking wonder he can't say 'I love you' to Lestat! No wonder he needs Claudia, the girl who called him an angel—the one person who sees the good in him, who doesn't see evil in his love—to live so badly!

While Lestat also doesn't see his love as evil, Louis sees Lestat as evil, as confirmation of these ideas about himself—think about how Lestat delights in Louis' act of murder and mutilation right before Claudia is made ("companion of the dark gift, finally"). In that scene, Lestat shares his excitement at finally having a partner to match him and fully embrace vampiric life—and all Louis hears is 'everyone was right about you.' And so the full embrace of Lestat's love, of vampirism, feels impossible for Louis as he drowns in his own sense of culpability and his fundamental wrongness.

[toriangeli]

Weirdly as an Armand stan, I feel like Armand should have been...worse.

Maybe worse/better isn't putting it right.

He should have been scarier.

The Armand I think of as the "real" Armand is the one we got in 2.05. So I know they know he's like that. It isn't exactly that he's evil, but when he hurts, when he's frightened, when he's cornered, he becomes something wild and vicious. Even when he's calm, there's a cold ruthlessness to him when dealing with people he doesn't care about.

So what the fuck is up with this wishy-washy betrayal?

The narrative as displayed on the show:

-Armand realizes he and Louis don't share values, so they need to break up. -The coven confronts Armand with the trial script and give him an ultimatum (disputed in fandom, never contradicted on the show). -Armand chooses loyalty to the coven and directs the play, bowing to their wishes. There are people who overestimate the role of a director and assume this means he engineered the entire thing, but see the problems in the next section below. -The tribunal is going to kill both Claudia and Louis. -The tribunal just kills Claudia. Lestat saves Louis. -Armand is demoted and punished (confirmed by Assad). -Armand, perhaps because of guilt, rescues Louis from the wall and urges him to leave Paris. -Armand makes the split-second decision to lie about saving Louis at the trial. This ends up saving his life. He lets Louis kill everyone in the coven (presumably because he's gotten a good look at how fickle they are toward him). -Louis chooses to continue their romance to spite Lestat, who keeps Armand's secret. -Daniel exposes the fact that Armand was free to choose Louis the entire time, that he was never in danger, and he chose the coven instead.

Things that have been said by Assad that contradict this version of events:

-Claudia "had to go" because she was in the way of what Armand wanted. Thing is, Armand wanted Louis, and he was going to let Louis die, so this makes no sense. -Armand "engineered" the "deaths" of Claudia and Louis both. No motive is presented to us. Moreover, there's genuinely nothing in the show that suggests this as opposed to Armand being strong-armed by a coven he lost control over. That version of events is never contradicted in the show.

And here's the thing: if I had my way, Armand would be the force behind it all, because having him fold to his own coven makes him the very opposite of scary. He'd never do it in the books. FFS, in the books, he slaughtered more than half of his last coven in a fit of madness (and I am convinced it's one of the things he blatantly lied about in 2.03). But to see what's actually presented on the show and to hear Rolin talk, they were deeply concerned with him remaining as empathetic as possible, so it looks to me like they did that by simply making him (/plays guitar) ANEMIC ROYALTYYYYY instead of a wild little gremlin. Instead of being empathetic, he's just pathetic. Instead of making the connection between Armand's history and his present behavior, the average viewer says, "That's just how he is. He lies about everything. Who knows why. He doesn't need a reason."

I can't help but feel this season should have ended with the average viewer saying "Oh he's crazy crazy." Which they kind of said of 2.05, but by the time 2.08 rolls around, they've sort of forgotten that side of him (which isn't a side, really, it's what lies beneath the mask).

And I mean, Armand in the books is definitely prone to bouts of self-pity. That's how people react when their trauma goes unvalidated. It's not playing the victim, either, he really does feel that way.

Maybe they're counting on next season to give context to both Lestat and Armand? It would make sense for Lestat to be the one to give real perspective on Armand, because Louis doesn't really know him and Armand himself is too guarded to be forthcoming. Lestat has seen Armand at his worst, but, at least in the books, he has a crippling amount of compassion for him as well.

I just...I need the gremlin. I need him to be terrifying, because only then can he turn around and be weird. He's endearing in DM because people looked at the "uncomprehending villain" of the last two books and saw him stuffing packs of cigarettes down the garbage disposal, laughing till he cried at movies, and quizzing Daniel about why war happens because he's never understood all that shit. That last was the moment I fell for him. He understands the vampiric instinct to kill, but humans don't have that. Humans just kill and maim each other anyway. The vampire who caused so much destruction asking, "What is the physical need to destroy?"

The innocence hidden beneath the cruelty and violence.

The writers know that innocence exists, but the innocence means very little if he isn't legitimately cruel and violent. If he doesn't make hard choices in the name of survival when the issue at hand isn't a matter of survival. If people don't suffer because he thinks suffering is what everyone does all the time anyway.

They know the cruelty exists, because they showed it in 2.05. They know exactly how to write an Armand who isn't pretending to be normal.

I just worry they've undermined what makes Armand so special as a character in their quest to keep him empathetic.

[jullythevamp]

ok guys I am SO MAD so here's a rant sorry for any mistakes bc i am MAD

so I was scrolling tiktok and I saw this

SO THIS IS ACTUALLY INSANE

yes armand did wrong things I AM NOT DENYING THAT in fact IN THE BOOKS HE DID WORSE BUT he's not the evil guy the tiktok series only fans are making him out to be he's not the wolf in sheep's clothing BUT A VERY TRAUMATIZED AND EVIL SHEEP

he survived KIDNAPPING SEXUAL ABUSE SEXUAL SLAVERY PEDOPHILIA ABUSE RELATIONSHIP KIDNAPPING AGAIN BRAINWASHING AND BEING PART OF A CULT if I was him I WOULD BE WORSE

but the worst part isn't about armand IT IS ABOUT LESTAT

LESTAT THE LIONCOURT IS NOT AN ANGEL

the fact that people are FORGETTING EVERYTHING LESTAT DID TO LOUIS AND CLAUDIA IS INSANE

CRIMES HE DID ON THE SHOW

- kill many people (all of vamps do that so ignoring this one)

- domestic abuser

- toxic father

- throwing louis off the SKY

- beating the shit out of claudia

- cheating on louis MULTIPLE TIMES

- and the biggest crime for me, THE LACK OF EMPATHY FOR LOUIS AND CLAUDIAS FEELINGS

now the things ON THE BOOKS

- rape (yeah this actually happened)

- sexual harrasment

- turning a guy into a vampire against his will

- traumatizing many innocents just because

- being best friends with an pedophile and lover with another

there are more things but I am so angry I can't think

honestly the reason yall actually hate armand that much is because he isn't white. there I said it

so armand does bad things to louis and claudia and he's the villian but lestat does bad things as well and HES THE HERO? HES THE POOR MEOW MEOW????

that has a name and that's RACISM

if you only take a brown man accountable and not a white man? I will raise and eyebrow

also HAVE WE WATCHED THE SAME SHOW?

and you know that person's defense?????? "LESTAT DIDNT KILL CLAUDIA"

BUT IN THE BOOKS HES CONSTANTLY HAUNTED BY HER BECAUSE HE TOLD ARMAND THAT CLAUDIA WAS THE ONLY PERSON GUILTY OF TRYING TO ASSASSINATE HIM

THAT MAN ONLY CARED ABOUT LOUIS. YALL PUT ARMAND ON FIRE ABOUT NOT CARING ABOUT HER WHEN LESTAT DID THE SAME

I will stop because I'm so mad but anyways I think you got my point

[winepresswrath]

Did you know that Lestat predicted don't want to be evil i want to be loved/evil again.

[most-screwed-by-writers-tourney]

Propaganda:

Harrow and Gideon; the power imbalance and pining and inability to communicate and understand each other and oh god the pining they just want to be loved and they're so bad at it

Juri and Shiori: They both love eachother right but shiori is insecure and has comphet and hates juri for being better than her!! It was confirmed in the original dialogue and by the series creator that Shiori does return Juri's feelings, but was antagonistic towards to her because she held Juri in such high regard that when she found out that Juri loved her it made Shiori feel powerful and on more equal ground with Juri than she initially thought, so she tried to maintain that power in the hopes of having Juri to herself

Louis and Lestat: In the original book Lestat literally turns a 5 year old little girl into a vampire to trap Louis in their loveless, abusive relationship, because he knows Louis will worry about Lestat (whom Louis now recognizes as a remorseless monster who sees humans as nothing but food) using this child (Claudia) as a tool and creating the most evil and messed up surrogate child of all time. (He was right, btw, bc she grows into a woman trapped forever in a child's body and hates them both for it. but this isn't about Claudia.)

In the TV series, Lestat is a white devil offering aid, sympathy, and love to a gay, closeted black man in the 1900s. He offers him company, capital, a friend who sees him as an 'equal' Once he turns him into a vampire, his desire to possess and control Louis becomes apparent. He displays TEXTBOOK narcissistic and abusive partner behaviors, apologies for how awful he was, promises to change, makes romantic gestures to try and smooth things over. They start having an 'open relationship' where Lestat loses it over Louis taking advantage of being able to see other people. Lestat writes a love song for him and sends Louis a recording sung by the woman he's having an affair with; Louis confronts him at the singer's apartment and they have angry sex in her bed.

Late in the TV series, they get in another fight, and Lestat literally drops Louis out of the sky and leaves him paralyzed, with Claudia (in this adaptation, a young woman who is more like a sister/mother to Louis) to nurse him back to health and re-teach him how to walk. Louis still takes him back.

In both the book and the TV series, Claudia convinces Louis that the only way they can be free is to kill Lestat. In both, they poison him, slit his throat, and dump his body in a swamp. In the TV version, Louis sobs over Lestat's dead body, refusing to allow Claudia to burn him and ensure he can't come back from it. (Spoilers: he gets better. and he's pissed about it! He follows them to Europe.) Their gay divorce drama eventually results in the destruction of an entire enclave of over 400 vampires in Paris and the death of their surrogate daughter.

[wizardpink]

Thinking about the fear that Armand experiences in QOTD when all the Shit Is Going Down and there's a fair to middling chance they're all going to die, and the way the show has set up events going forward with Armand and Daniel already seperated post turning and how I just

really

want

post Akasha plot line, when Daniel and Louis and Lestat have all made it out alive, for Armand to just start laughing, until it devolves into crying. Like fully fucking SOBBING, maybe in front of all of them, maybe just with Daniel, who is like "...are you okay?" and Armand chokes out that he's just so happy. Like the last 80 years have just been so stressful and eventful and then the last five years were just a fucking marathon of crisis after crisis after clusterfuck, and all the stress just built and built until it crescendoed to "I and everyone I love is about to die," and then they didn't! And Armand and Louis aren't trapped in a loveless marriage, and Lestat is back in their lives again, and Daniel isn't dying anymore and he's finally one of them, and the evil queen of vampires is dead, and Armand is so RELIEVED.

[anime-villian-irl]

I feel like every ship in with is unhealthy and we are fools to believe otherwise. They have all harmed or hurt each other in terrible ways.

Louis , lestat , Armand , and Daniel are all shitty people. Claudia is a shitty person so is Madeline. Same with Antoinette.

Every vampire in this series is a horrible person.

So for the love of fucking god stop being weird about them.

Stop trying to make Louis this big evil controlling man. "Oh but he was a pimp" lestat has killed a sex worker claiming her life doesn't matter because she was a sex worker.

Stop making Armand some one dimensional manipulator who only subs as a act if control "oh but he killed Claudia" Claudia is literally a serial killer she has killed for fun not for food several times.

It's okay to hate a character god knows how much I hate Antoinette and lestat. But stop pretending your other characters are perfect little angel babies.

They are vampires by nature they are fucked up and shitty people. Stop pretending otherwise.

And motherfucker this started with ships. Okay let's go back to that

Is loumand unhealthy?

Yes Armand killed Louis's daughter and was pretty willing to let him die. Armand also only got with Louis because he saw his own depression and misery inside Louis and he was lestats fledgling.

But don't act like loustat isn't also unhealthy.

Lestat physically abused Louis. He tries to isolate him from his family. He saw his own fuckin daughter as a love rival (I do not give a flying fuck about his dark daughter and belladonic beauty bullshit he saw her as a romantic rival for a while)

No vampire ship is going to be 100% healthy.

Claudia and Madeline would of been unhealthy if they were given time to grow in their relationship.

Like I said in the tags of a post.

They are the victims and the abusers and so much fucking more and I love them for that.

[deaddee-anime-brownfanlady]

When it comes to interview with the vampire is that I don't understand why some fans keep on trying to moralize these Fucked-up Vampires.

Like every single one of these characters, aren't what you call " Good People " or " morally Pure" okay, there damned vampires for crying out loud!? Each of one of these characters are Monsters in their own right.

Seeing the way some people or certain fans of the series keep on trying to moralize these messed-up vampires and acting like one character is more evil than the other or even going as far as treating a character like a cartoony one-dimensional Saturday morning villain archetype, takes away the many complexities and nauauces of these characters.

All of these vampires are all extremely Fucked-up and have some kind of severe trauma and are again MONSTERS! & KILLERS!

Louis , Lestat, Claudia, and Armand are all some forms of highly questionable morality and have showcased just how cruel, violent, and ruthless and just plain vicious each of them can be at times.

Even Daniel himself, the one human character, is also not exactly 100 percent " innocent " neither and has shown how deeply flawed and just as equally messed up and pretty much of a asshole he can be at times.

For real, though, none of these characters, especially the vampires, are what you call "Morally good "

If some of ya'll can’t handle a Dark Gothic TV show were equally all of the characters aren’t “Good people ” and dealing with highly morally questionable /awful and at times ruthless toxic vampires that kill humans for a living and see them as just food. Where every single one of these characters are monsterous in their own ways, and where no one is a “ hero ” or ever truly "innocent."

Then maybe this series isn't really meant for you and should stick with media that you're far more comfortable with if dysfunctional fucked-up monsterous violent vampires aren't your thing.