#ji'e'toh

[reformedmoth]

DAES DAE'MAR | The Wheel of Time 2x7

[iliiuan]

This shouldn't be as funny as it is.

[butterflydm]

wot 2x7: daes da'mar

That definitely lived up to the title. Lots of games within games and lots of people moving against each other.

First: as many of us suspected, our girl Moiraine was shielded and not stilled. I love that Lan has been investigating this kinda in the background and that he essentially was able to put the pieces together to solve the problem. <3 <3 <3

So after Lan was able to shake off the accusation of being a Darkfriend sworn to Lanfear, he's... kinda working with Lanfear.

Oh, it was rough to see Siuan and Moiraine come against each other like that. Just as Moiraine reunites with her platonic husband, she breaks up with her romantic wife. But I love mess and drama, so I loved it. It was so painful!

We also got a look into Aiel culture -- after Aviendha charmed everyone in her first episode, now we see some of the violence that is embedded in ji'e'toh, and we meet two more Maidens.

When Loial met Elayne was the first time on-screen when someone treated Elayne the way that she usually gets everyone treating her, lol, which must have been so jarring for Nynaeve to witness. But they've kidnapped themselves a sul'dam and are ready to go on a rescue mission!

Mat's stuff was heartbreaking. I'm guessing that was our stand-in for a certain book event, where Mat gets to see what he's capable of (in a bad way).

Egwene's stuff was also heartbreaking, though I was thrilled when Egwene very straight-forwardly told Renna that she would kill her.

Anvaere locking up Barthanes and revealing the truth about him (to the queen)... even knowing that Moiraine will leave the city again, focused on her mission, Anvaere also knows the right thing to do and she prioritized it over getting her house restored and her son on the throne.

Of course, we had Rand's plotline which... chef's kiss, loved it.

Making it so that the Tower has a set policy to cage the Dragon is a good reason for Moiraine and Siuan's secrecy all these years and why they said last season that they would be stilled if it were known that they were trying to help the Dragon figure things out on his own.

It was so fascinating to watch the battle lines inside the Tower itself being drawn over the Dragon Reborn and so heartbreaking that Siuan is not on the same side as Moiraine, though I understand why Siuan feels like she had to make the choices that she made. She explains it pretty clearly in the episode. But heartbreaking! That is... that is a hard thing to forgive.

And now Rand knows that Moiraine, Verin, and Alanna were all willing to stand up against Tower law for his sake, because they believe he shouldn't be caged.

Rand is trying to figure out the limits of his own power in this episode -- the One Power, but also what power he has over Lanfear (she didn't kill Moiraine, after all).

But, yeah, that one of the Forsaken just broke Rand out and helped him escape is probably not going to be reassuring to the rest of the Sisters who were here with Siuan.

[mashithamel]

Desert Warriors: translation

Bolded Old Tongue words are ones I couldn't find a translation for, and bolded English words are what I guessed (I really wish they released the lyrics/translations for all of them like for S1!):

Difrol sa nush Siswai sa sovin Wapro ost cheta Vakar-dar sa xentro

Danila vakar Ji'i'toh Hei vaka-dar Ji'e'toh

Sein vakar sa zamon Culieb losyngyae

Baltan qis-cuendillar Siswa hama balfrait Al'dai sa corda Ji'e'toh

Man meradula Vaka-dar vid tsingu

Deep in the waste Spear in your hands Cover on your face Move through the sand

Move as one Honor and obligation Keep moving forward Honor and honor and obligation

See through the darkness Forward through the past

Essence of the heartstone Dance the spears in a whirlwind For the battle of the heart Honor and obligation

Blade without a sheath Move forward with honor

[asha-mage]

WoT Meta: Tuon, the Seanchan, and their Role in the Story

I often see readers questioning the role or point of both Tuon, and more broadly, the Seanchan in the story. Wondering why Jordan would introduce such a reprehensible group only to leave them be, or even in a position of prosperity by the end of the series, and why Jordan would introduce a character like Tuon, who in many ways represents fundamental flaws at the heart of Seanchan culture and society, only to largely leave her unchallenged and without substantive character growth. And there is some truth to the criticism that the depiction of the Seanchan in the later half of the series lacks nuance and depth, being flattened (if not as badly as some elements of the story and world) into something simpler. Some of that is Sanderson’s fault, who by his own admission didn’t really get Tuon as a character, but I do think that there is a fundamental disconnect too, between the role Tuon and the Seanchan occupy in the story, and the role readers would like both to occupy.

The Power of Sincerity and Idealism

I’ve talked about this point before, but it bears repeating: one of the central themes of Wheel of Time is that sincere belief in something, regardless of what that thing is, is an inherently ennobling thing. To strive to live up to an ideal, regardless of what that ideal actually is, is one of the most powerful indicators of someone’s character and moral strength. 

We see this time and time again play out throughout the series: the Tinkers’ sincere commitment to their non violence even in the face of a violent and cruel world is treated as worthy of not just respect but reverence, even by characters (such as Elyas and Perrin) who fundamentally disagree with that world view. Pedron Niall’s loss of faith in the Light, the way he has abandoned a sense of greater good and justice to focus on the pursuit of worldly power and political gain, is not just his undoing, but also the undoing ultimately of the Children of the Light, until they come under Galad’s leadership, who gains leadership and followers from his willingness to die for his convictions and justice. The Shaido are slowly eaten alive by their own greed and corruption, after they abandon their beliefs for the short-sighted spoils Sevanna and Couladin offer, while the rest of the Aiel walk their path towards Tamon Gai’don no matter how painful, staying committed to Ji'e'toh and their ideals of honor, and for that earn the respect of the vast majority of the cast. Even among team Shadow the most dangerous villains are not the most rawly powerful, but rather those with the sincerity of their convictions: most Darkfriends are seduced by promises of worldly power or satisfaction, revenge, gold, what have you. But it’s those who are truly committed who do the most damage: Ishamael, Alviarain, Graendal, Kadere.

To Jordan, the ability to aspire to something greater than yourself, to act in service to an ideal, is an inherently heroic trait. What you aspire to, matters too.

Which brings us to…

The Seanchan as the Ideal of Empire

From the moment they are more or less introduced, the Seanchan are meant to serve as a sort of platonic ideal of Empire, with all the good, and all the very bad of that. They are imperialistic conquers, who act on relatively flimsy justifications to consolidate rule. Their claim to Randland is based on a thousand year old, briefly held rule that didn’t even last a single lifetime, and their claim to their conquered lands in Seanchan itself largely seems to range from ‘well because we could’ to ‘SOMEONE had to impose order on to chaos’.

Stylistically, practically, and ideologically, the Seanchan are a mix of various empires throughout history: you can draw clean parallels to basically any Empire, but the most prominent are dynastic China (Strict social hierarchy, singular autocracy, and caste based slavery), Modern America (military culture and a standing professional army with clear balanced branches), and post-Republic Rome (focus on culturally adapting to new lands, syncretism with local beliefs and ideas, and emphasis on imposing stability via conquest). They are meant to embody the ideal of Empire, and in keeping with that many of the Seanchan characters we meet that we are supposed to like are sincere believers in that Empire….but relatively few are in positions of real power.

Egeanin, for example, is constantly struggling because she is a sincere believer, and is forced to reckon with those beliefs when they slam up against her lived experience in Tanchico. The vast majority of the Seanchan PoVs scattered throughout Path of Daggers are much the same (key among them, Karede who is himself a slave, and later becomes a very important prominent character). But the closest thing to a sincere believer in the Empire that is in a position of power is High Lord Turak, and from what we see he is a noble, just, if somewhat bat shit crazy guy. (Notably he is not easily corrupted by Padan Fain’s temptations of power, and remains firm in his belief in the Empress), who inspires true loyalty from his followers and Household, but those beliefs also lead him to his (honorable) death against Rand at the end of TGH.

For most of the series our highest ranking Seanchan PoV is Suroth, and though the ingrained norms of her culture run deep…a true believer she is not. Not in the Shadow which she joined for political expediency, not expecting the End of Days to happen in her lifetime, or in the Empire she is supposed to serve, since her personal glory and that of her house are always at the forefront of her mind and actions, instead of what is best for the Empire as a whole.

Until that is, Tuon is introduced.

Tuon and Seanchan as messy, but nuanced

Many of the Seanchan’s cultural practices are abhorrent to us. The big one is slavery of course, but their attempt to colonize and subjugate Randland is also, objectively, awful on every level. And yet like many real-life nations and countries they defy simplification into bad guys by the virtue of not being monolithic, and for the most part, being unaware of their own injustices. 

A combination of cultural brainwashing, simple indoctrination, and also just lack of information holds the Seanchan together broadly. Most citizens of the Empire buy into the prejudices about channelers that the Empire uses to justify their collaring, and into the idea that slavery is a necessity to avoid rampant poverty and social unrest. Notably, there is no state culture police enforcing these norms: when Min’s wearing trousers breaks the social convention during TGH, it’s the cook who gets annoyed, says that ‘everything and everyone has a place in the pattern and that place should be obvious at sight’, and insists she put on a dress to that ranks her with the serving girls. 

The Empire has mechanisms of course to enforce its will, but interestingly those are angled mostly at recalcitrant and ambitious nobles, not the everyday folk. The Crystal Throne has sharply limited the power of its aristocracy, and established a secret police (the Seekers) mostly concerned with keeping them in line. Its standing army is professional and independently maintained, not dependent on feudal levies. Whenever we get a peek into the head of someone with influence and power, none of them seem overly concerned with the possibility of a slave revolt, or a popular uprising.

And that seems to be justified, since there exists powerful cultural and legal protections for both the common folk and slaves (probably established specifically to prevent uprisings and revolts). Mat notes for example during the occupation of Ebou Dar, that several of the heads put on spikes since the city fell belong to Seanchan themselves, and that petitions against Lords and Ladies are heard by magistrates as much as any other. We also see as early as the Fires of Heaven that the Seekers are principally concerned with curtailing and controlling the aristocracy, when Rand and Avihenda’s Seanchan field trip briefly brings them into contact with a Seeker who arrests a noble woman without a peep from her own retainers.

All of this points to the idea that, while we are supposed to be disgusted and horrified by the Seanchan, standing as they do in opposition to so many of our own values and morals, we aren’t supposed to be able to outright dismiss them. 

Which incidentally, is how we’re supposed to feel about Tuon too.

It’s important that we're introduced to her, not in glory or power, conquest or victory, not scheming and plotting and asserting her rule. But instead in a moment of humanity and humility. Jordan opens on Tuon reflecting on what she’s done wrong, and showing empathy and expressing regret to a damane, a person on the lowest rung of Seanchan society. In a way that is horrifying because it still denies that woman’s personhood and agency, and yet in a way that also shows Tuon capable of admitting she is wrong, of being willing to learn and grow, and show regret.

Tuon believes, truly believes, in the Empire she is destined to rule. She believes it is a force for good and stability, that it will improve the lives of those she conquerors, and be to the ultimate good of the world. She is wrong, but the story asks us to understand why she believes what she does, and to show as much respect for that as we do the beliefs of our other characters, even when they're wrong.

And that’s the conundrum of Tuon and the Seanchan more broadly. It’s Egeanin and Nynaeve’s conflict writ large: Nyneave thinks it would be so simple, so easy if Egeanin just sucked, if she wasn’t a living breathing complicated person who Nyneave liked a little bit. In the same way it would be a lot easier if the Seanchan were just an evil monolith and Tuon were just a classic evil Empress. But it also wouldn’t be very realistic, or very human.

The Long Painful Road of Character Development

Crossroads of Twilight gets a lot of flack, some justified, some less so. But one thing that it inarguably does very effectively, is show Tuon both as human, and as someone still trying to grow and learn.

She outright tells Mat during CoT that part of the reason for her going along with the kidnapping is because she wants the chance to better understand the Altarans as a people, since she knows that she will have to understand them to be able to effectively rule them. We see the fruits of some of that in TGS when she wins Beslan over to her side via concessions and promises that make him into a powerful ally instead of a dangerous enemy, going so far as to promise him an apology from the Crystal Throne if it turns out that Suroth murdered his mother (which shocks most of the Blood).

We also see that curiosity and desire to grow in other ways: her visit to the supposed Hell where she is trying (with all the grace of cat attempting to visit a wolf den) to show respect and learn more about the sorts of people who normally she would never get the chance to meet. She neither attempts to overawe or browbeat the show performers (her largest problem with the cover story she’s forced to adopt is that she’s supposedly a thieving servant, not a servant), and she even entertains constant discussions, debates, and challenges from Satelle Anan, not just on the subject of damane, but on da'covale and slavery more generally.

As important as CoT and KoD are to establishing Tuon and Mat’s weird dynamic, they are even more important for establishing the sort of person Tuon is. Proud, but not to the point of arrogance or without reason. Sincere in her convictions and beliefs, but still willing to reconsider when with the evidence of her own senses. Stubborn, but not so rigid in her thinking or unwilling to adapt that she would threaten her Empire’s well being for it.

None of this is painless of course, and part of the fun is that it is painful for both Mat and Tuon to learn and develop, to see each other as human rather than as the archetypes they represent. Nothing ever stays the same in Jordan’s world (or our own for that matter) things are constantly changing, sometimes with terrible speed, sometimes with infuriating slowness, but always they are shifting, and very rarely are those shifts painless.

The same is true for the Seanchan, and we see some of that again in the last few books, with their increasing willingness to work with the Westlands, and to overcome their own prejudices for the sake of a greater good. Tylee’s alliance with Perrin over the Shaido and its consequences are the best microcosm of this, both parties being impacted by the events more than they realize, but we see it in small ways too, with the increasing adoption of Westlander customs by the Seanchan in Altara.

The final few books do feature the apex of both arcs. Broadly, the Seanchan joining of the coalition against the Shadow (which reflects the real-world geopolitical necessity of having to work with those you often find abhorrent), and specifically Tuon’s willingness to place her complete trust in Mat in that battle are two things that were largely seen as impossible prior to CoT, and are only arrived at through a great deal of pain on all sides.

The main problem is partly Sanderson: as I’ve talked about before,he struggles with nuance and ambiguity. He likes clarity and simplicity. But he does expend effort to try with the Seanchan which is to his credit I think, even if it doesn't hit the way it should. The other part of the problem I think lays with the readers, who also want to simplify both Tuon and the Seanchan, for them to be archetypes rather than nuanced. For the Empire to simply be evil, the Empress to simply be a tyrant, and the people of the Empire to be either dupes, defectors, or devils.

Part of me can’t blame people for that reaction- Empires have done so much bad in the real world, some of it very recently that it makes sense to have a strong emotional reaction, especially when the Seanchan draw on a lot of the practices of those same Empires in their effort to colonize the Westlands. But the Wheel of Time has always been about nuances and complexity, about looking beyond gut reactions and simple thinking to see the complexity of the world Jordan presents, and our own through it. 

The Seanchan and Tuon are part of that, and refusing to engage with them with the same nuance you might find in other parts of the setting, or other characters, is at least a little bit, missing the point.

[cannoli-reader]

Yes, but also no. The betrayal only happened with the sex, and it's not the betrayal of Elayne, per se, but of Aviendha's commitment. No Aiel recognize Elayne's claim. The Wise Ones have amicable dealings with her, the Maidens aid and abet her pursuit of Rand in Tear, but both groups are the leading shippers of Rand & Aviendha. They don't seem to have the concept of a relationship commitment or betrothal, since marriage occurs immediately upon acceptance of a proposal, and the groom is not involved in the planning or preparation. So there is no social issue involved, no Aiel (including Rand) recognizes any existing relationship between them.

She is also not that close with Elayne, that their friendship would make her leap to defend Elayne's romantic aspirations. "We are friends, I think" is how she describes their relationship when next they meet, and means it dismissively, in that their friendship is not yet enough to share a man. "friends, I think" is not exactly how one would describe a person for whom you go to extreme lengths to get her the guy she wants.

The guilt and toh she feels later come because of her promise to watch him for Elayne. And that promise comes in the confab between Wise Ones and Aes Sedai & their respective pupils, after Moiraine & Aviendha have returned from Rhuidean, after Aviendha's emphatic refusal to have anything to do with him, and expresses her hatred of him. It's Egwene who suggests watching him for Elayne, and Aviendha accepts that condition as a way to back down before incurring the wrath of the Wise Ones, and as we later see, as a focus of her efforts to divert Rand's attention away from her.

Elayne is the excuse to try to avoid what she fears. If what she fears is the betrayal of her commitment to uphold Elayne's claim, the simplest way to evade the subsequent incurrence of toh is to avoid the commitment. By Aiel rules, she does not owe Elayne a thing before she makes that statement, and they are not, by her eventual admission, really at a "bros before 'ho's" stage.

Secondly, Aviendha is angry at Rand, and the betrayal of Elayne is her own doing. Rand owes Elayne nothing, regardless of her feelings, which she has not shared with him. The Aiel adhere strictly to a code of personal responsibility, with no excuses permitted. If you do something to incur toh, if you commit a dishonorable action, the toh and the loss of ji is entirely on you. You don't get to shift the blame or demand satisfaction. For Aviendha to hold Rand responsible, for a promise she makes without his concurrence or knowledge, is pretty absurd, and flies in the face of the fuss over Sulin meeting her toh to the gai'shain. If Rand can't claim responsibility for an order he gave Sulin, someone as hyper-scrupulous as Aviendha is at that stage of her life would not dare blame him for her own dishonor.

We later learn that Aviendha saw the sexual encounter, and from her nightmare that Egwene clandestinely observes the last night in Rhuidean, and her words immediately before they have sex, she seems to have seen that physical pursuit would have been a part of it. On top of that, we have her mindset at the time. Aviendha is upset and resentful over having to give up the spear to become a Wise One, and also, having to follow a man who gets to go to Rhuidean, where she has to go, who has a choice where she does not, but is choosing what she wishes she did not have to do. We later learn that all her life, she only ever wanted to be a Maiden, but that is being taken away from her, and on top of that, in the rings, she sees that she is destined to marry Rand. Not just have sex with him, but marry him. She later tells Elayne that she saw that she would find sister-wives. And for the Aiel, that is supposed to be an area where the women are in control. The choice to marry or not is, or should be, hers, and here she is discovering that this is yet another choice that seems to be taken away from her, one more loss of freedom, one more degree of estrangement from her lifelong dream. How could she choose this? How could she ever decide on a relationship with this wetlander, whom she already resents over their inverse relationship with Rhuidean, and from what little she understands of romantic affairs, failed to do right by the last woman he was involved with? Clearly she would not, this is impossible, and that incident where he runs her down and sexes her up, nope, that is not her doing, she does not consent, never would, never will. And she comes out of Rhuidean, and what is the first thing she sees? That guy watching her climb the mountain naked. He was in and out, he is relaxing comfortably while she is finishing up one of the most trying experiences of her life and she is supposed to believe she would voluntarily sleep with this asshole? And so she gives him a look that makes Mat react pretty much the same way he does to Couladin.

That is not a proportionate response to any kind of dumping he did or might do to a girl he dated for three days. This is not the visceral reaction to seeing a lot of worry and concern over a toh that various circumstances combined to prevent her meeting. It's not the look you give a man who is going to get you to betray a woman you are not yet sure qualifies as a friend.

While I would not say that what Aviendha saw would seem like rape to an objective viewer, the depth of her reaction and her preoccupation with choices and consent at that point in her life, made her perceive it as a violation in one way or another, and treat Rand as an imminent perpetrator, at least until she has time to cool down and realize that Rand legitimately has no such intentions, and furthermore, that it is her own (over)reaction to what she saw that is setting up the events. Her adamant refusal to have anything to do with Rand led to her making the commitment to look out for Elayne's interests (and she knows from observing Elayne's & Egwene's interactions with regard to Rand in Tear, and their attitude toward Berelain, that Elayne's interests at this time do not encompass other women in the relationship), as an excuse to obey yet another order she did not want to, while giving herself the illusion of free will in spending time with Rand, and hoping that commitment will in turn, strengthen her against giving in to him down the road. She also uses it as an excuse to promote Elayne as a love interest to Rand, in order to divert any such interest away from herself, but by making the commitment, she has set herself up to have the toh to Elayne, and by being so hostile to Rand, she has driven him to try to make amends, and inadvertently set them up as a potential couple in the eyes of the world.

From that point on, I would say that Aviendha's pushing back against Rand is in part fighting her own growing feelings and attraction and awareness of the commitment she has made to Elayne. After they hook up, she's struggling with the toh, and sometime between the Seanchan igloo and Rand waking up after the battle at Cairhien, she has clearly been told of the Wise Ones' intention that she have a relationship with Rand for the good of the Aiel and for Rand's sake (in a response to a fan inquiry, Jordan has said that the Aiel in general believe that chiefs should be married, and even the female relative holding the position of roofmistress for an unmarried chief will actively work to find him a wife, just on general principles). By the time they are ready to leave for Caemlyn to take out Rahvin, Amys, at least, has figured out that There's Something There That Wasn't There Before. All of this means that Aviendha's duties as an aspiring Wise One and to her people, and even to Rand, require that she stay near him, that she maintain their relationship as best as she can. Her toh to him for saving her from Lanfear also requires that she help and protect him (and note how she has flipped the script on their sexual encounter - if Lanfear was trying to kill Aviendha for something that Rand did to her, saving her would be meeting his own toh and nothing more; Aviendha has toh to Rand, because she knows that it was, in fact, her choice and her free will to have sex with him, and thus, the consequences, such as Lanfear's ire and her toh to Elayne, are hers to bear). But because of her toh to Elayne, she cannot pursue the relationship further. It's a paradoxical situation, and again, not the sort of thing to make her seethe with hatred toward Rand for getting her involved in it. You have that kind of anger for a strong image, an emotional gut punch, not an ironic situation that requires a minute understanding of all the moving parts to grasp just how messed up things are for her by the time they get to Caemlyn.

That stuff in your post on how Egwene should have ended was really harsh on Moiraine! She had no choice, there were only bad options if she didn't do what she did.

Who says? The lady who tells us that the Aiel and Mat & Perrin are not in the Prophecies of the Dragon, who said that women were just as strong in the Power as men, and that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for the Shadow if the wrong person blows it?

Moriaine is not infallible, and this, in particular, is a place where the story itself introduces beforehand, reasons to doubt her assertions. Jordan does this a lot, throwing in the counter-argument before the argument is made.

When Moiraine first went into Rhuidean, we got warnings that the alternative scenarios disappear from your memory, that your mind can't retain it all. She was also told about the dangers of making assumptions about prophecies. The Wise Ones tell her that in every dream they had of her coming to the Three Fold Land, she insisted on going to Rhuidean, only for in reality, Melaine to let it slip that they dreamed Moiraine needs to go through the rings.

What we can take away from this is, is that merely by knowing the future, you alter how it plays out. This happens with Moiraine. She claims that they would inevitably end up on the docks, confronting an enraged Lanfear, but how or why would that have played out? Rand had no intention of going anywhere near the docks. He was going straight to the mustering ground to Skim to Caemlyn. There might have been a delay for the Maidens' intervention, but after being stalled to deal with Sulin's complaints, Rand would have had even less patience for potential delays. The only reason he goes anywhere near Lanfear is that Moiraine insisted he come and everyone around Rand supported her for various reasons of their own. There is also the possibility that seeing Rand & Aviendha in close proximity put their relationship foremost in Kadere's mind, and led to him telling Lanfear about them hooking up. Maybe if he had not seen them, and got confirmation in his own mind, he might not have bothered reporting that tidbit to her, and she might not have flipped her shit.

But even if she does get the word from Kadere, and go psycho looking to kill Aviendha, what good is that going to do her, if Moiraine does not drag Rand & Aviendha down to the docks to set up her "rescue"? Maybe if she comes after them, she pops in in the middle of the battle around the Royal Palace in Caemlyn, and Rahvin kills her, thinking she's after him. Or she takes a random kill shot which are prone to happen in the chaos of a full scale battle. And Moiraine does not get the credit, and keeps sliding down in importance as a mere lackey of Rand, and eventually completely overshadowed when Cadsuane arrives.

A bad faith interpretation of her character might suggest that the timelines branching from the docks were Moiraine's preference, having seen that fate and diminishment, and choosing to set up the dock fight to thwart her own irrelevance. But even putting the best possible intentions on Moiraine, she overlooked the fact that she forgot 99% of what she saw in the rings, and is misinterpreting a warning that going down to the docks has only bad outcomes, except along a very narrow path, requiring a lot of good luck to achieve.

For comparison, look at all the stuff Aviendha gives no indication of remembering from her own spin through the rings:

Rand's revelations about the Aiel backstory

Opening Rhuidean

The battle at Cairhien

Fighting Trollocs in Caemlyn

An encounter with a village of Aes Sedai who want to recruit her

A near-encounter with a Forsaken fleeing Ebou Dar

The Bowl of the Winds

The Seanchan (either encounter)

The destruction of Elayne's gateway

The siege of Caemlyn

All we know she saw was a version of her sexual encounter with Rand that seems to have made her think he was going to rape her, and that there would be a relationship with them and other women.

Absolutely nothing we know about the rings in Rhuidean support Moiraine's assertion that the encounter at the docks was inevitable once they were told of Morgase's death, and there were only three possible outcomes of the confrontation.

[iliiuan]

I'm going to make a running list of things that make little to no sense in A Memory of Light. Things that unleash fury in my heart.

So far, I've got:

The Dragon's Peace

No really. This treaty is such nonsense I can't even articulate fully how bad it is. Add on top that Rand saved two thrones for his girlfriend and then turns around and says "No one get greedy now! Only one country per ruler!" Just gross.

Elayne running the Last Battle

Excuse me, what? She has zero experience. Again with the favoring your girlfriend nonsense. (From a character standpoint, she does make sense, being the skilled diplomat. But she's presented as war leader, which is not really her skill.) Anyways, it should have been Mat, obviously, but Sanderson couldn't manage that one simple plot point.

Ok, now she's in the Braem Wood being a pest because she can't believe the capabilities of the Two Rivers archers. WHY IS SHE EVEN THERE? She should be at the central command post, not running sorties on one of the battle fronts. What a complete disregard for chain of command.

Everyone deciding that Caemlyn absolutely must be rescued

I... don't get it. It's lost. It's far south, providing a magnificent distraction to the Shadow. Set up a kill net around the city, like whatever Rand had used on the Waygate in Shadar Logoth. Trollocs leave the city, trollocs get dead.

Perrin saying that there's no way to destroy the Waygate

Um, excuse me, were you not paying attention AT ALL to Loial's lectures? You remove both Avendesora leaves. Like what is even going on here.

Rhuarc and Amys insisting that the Aiel can do whatever the fuck they want at Shayol Ghul.

They just signed the Dragon's Peace and agreed that Elayne would lead. There is no way under ji'e'toh that they would immediately ignore their pledge.

Not inviting Seanchan and Shara to the party

Yes, I'm still bitter that not a single Aes Sedai thought to go check on Shara.

Also, Tuon definitely should have been there. My need for thoroughness and consistency demands it.

The numbers don't seem right

I haven't done the math, but there seem to be too many trollocs (where was there space for so many? And what did they eat?) and too many armies of the Dark, with a very small showing of forces for the Light. And then the small matter of so many channelers being turned. Like, I get that it would be a difficult war to win, but the numbers seem really skewed to me.

The Horn of Valere

Rand really didn't put together that Mat wasn't bound any longer? (Maybe not, ok ok, but still seems like he would have pondered it more.) Egwene really went to the Field of Merrilor to prepare for The Last Battle and didn't bother to bring the Horn of Valere with her? What level of unprepared bullshit is going on over here?

The Ogier

The world doesn't have enough food, so the most important thing the ogier can do is... fight? NO. Sure, send the warriors out, but have the rest sing food to life. I just. What a waste. (And a rather large lack of creativity.)

Pevara and Androl

An Aes Sedai (you know, the women who perfected the art of not responding to emotion) who's been alive over a hundred years (so she's definitely practiced) and is in the Red Ajah (you know, the Ajah that oddly doesn't have Warders), in a moment of panic, bonds a man who can channel.

I also was annoyed on my first read by having these randos all of a sudden occupying a rather large portion of the pov. After 14 books with a rather breathtaking cast, why are we exploring new people? I don't get it.

Cannon Misuse

They lined 100 cannons in four ranks across a road. That's 25 cannons across. That many cannons *might* fit across the monstrous 14 lane freeway behind my neighborhood. Maybe. That's *way* too many cannons for a forest road to nowhere.

Perrin Hesitating

You know, we finally have Rand being rational about female combatants, and now Perrin is hesitating over a fucking Forsaken? He didn't hesitate over the Shaido, so I'm calling bullshit. He would have taken Hessalam out immediately. Moonhunter maybe not, because he didn't put together who she was until it was obvious she was helping him. But going after Heartseeker is like starting a hunt, and my boy would NOT squirm just because she's a woman.

Dreamwalkers Abandon the Dream

The Aiel Wise Ones, for all their bluster, turn out to be neither particularly wise, nor particularly brave. "Ooh, the Dream is so scary now! We better stay away!" Meanwhile, the Forsaken continue to roam. Did they ever even consider hunting their enemy? Did they even notice the purple domes? Do they care at all about anything beyond the end of their noses?

And Egwene isn't any better. Instead of being on a battlefield pretending to be a warrior, she should have been in the Dream, hunting with Perrin.

The whole thing was really disappointing.

Gareth Bryne

How, exactly, is Graendal able to compel Gareth when he's Siuan's Warder and they're always together? She should have been noticed and rebuffed.

Plot Lag

Yes, it's a problem through the entire series, but The Last *Battle* ended up being a book and a half political mess plus lots of blood and gore. The whole Black Tower debacle? Should have been resolved already. Perrin hunting Slayer? Should have been resolved early, so that he's leading the Hunt as Rand *enters* Shayol Ghul. Mat getting fitted with Seanchan attire? Should have happened instead of sitting in Caemlyn for a month, because there's no way that letter doesn't just fall open after a few days, bellowing smoke and yelling that trollocs are about to invade.

Moiraine

She is constantly expressing emotions. This is not my Moiraine. What alien did the Finn return to us?

She's also back to giving really bad advice. I thought she had grown out of that? Le sigh

Story Imbalance

I sincerely thought that the war part would be maybe a third of the book, and then we'd get into the aftermath. I guess I was naive.

The Last Battle

Who the fuck approved a chapter over 150 pages long? WHO? Absolute insanity.

[gunkreads]

Oh, one actual HUGE improvement the show made was its treatment of the viewer in understanding ji'e'toh. Jordan gets annoying with it, I feel, by not letting any characters understand it at all for, like, the entire series. Except for Egwene "good grade in cultural assimilation" al'Vere, our main cast pretty much all end the series going "yeah what the hell is up with those guys?" I like that they introduce it via Perrin, who's fairly quiet, and just kind of give a quick dialogue explanation and then show the beating scene with a brief follow-up. It's more of an "understand this or take it at face value, either way, we're moving on" approach. I always felt like Jordan spent too much time interjecting statements of characters not understanding ji'e'toh, and it got pretty repetitive.

I know that part of this is that there literally wasn't time for more, so we'll definitely see how it plays out when more characters have time to hang out with Aiel next season.

[thecomposerthatwaspromised]

trying to make sense of the vol. 1 for s2 now that we're nearing the end of the season.

1. The Desert Warriors (3:23)

theme for the Aiels

recognized 'Ji'e'toh' in the lyrics

2. The Hailene (3:09)

theme for the Seanchans

i like the s1 track better, more energetic

3. Darkness and Shadows (3:59)

theme for the ?

the masculine and feminine voices are nice

4. Liandrin Guirale (2:23)

theme for Liandrin

5. Aviendha (2:15)

theme for Aviendha

i don't there's a big difference with track 1 beside this one being more dynamic?

6. Mat Cauthon (3:15)

theme for the Mat

the motif is nice

7. The Dragon’s Heart (2:41)

theme for ?

8. Egwene al’Vere (3:02)

theme for Egwene

the motif is nice also

9. Nynaeve al’Meara (3:10)

theme for Nynaeve

i like it less than Mat and Eg's

10. Last Light (3:19)

theme for ?

i'm not sure i understand the vibes it's going for

11. Coming Home (4:24)

theme for ?

calmer motif i can picture being used for the finale?

[shunnao-addict]

ji'e'toh

maybe, finally, I won't have to explain my tattoo to everyone on every turn

MAYBE they'll get into the details

[cannoli-reader]

Just some thoughts:

I didn’t understand how pervasive such expectations could be in a mono-cultural society.

This, I think, is a major problem with the show writers (and for Rings of Power as well). WoT & Middle-Earth are absolutely monocultural, and instead, the writers decided to make them the same as their own world. Ironically, growing up in a multicultural society, or working in a multicultural city like New York, Los Angeles or London, has eroded their ability to consider, embrace or understand a different sort of cultural background. To paraphrase The Incredibles, "If every culture is special, no one is."

Perrin has difficulty understanding Faile’s culture.

The same thing could probably be said of Rand and Aviendha, or of Mat and Tuon. Or perhaps not ...the characters are more aware that cultural differences fuel misunderstandings.

I think some of the biggest issues in this regard, outside of the overt problem Perrin has (Faile is aware and working the problem - she's simply getting no help at the other end), are actually between Rand & Elayne. Because class is culture as well. Elayne does not see herself as a superior class to any of the non-noble characters (and it's not channeling or lust - the first character she befriends is Min), and so is unaware of any such difference, but Rand is absolutely aware of her status and creates distinctions in his own head.

With Aviendha and Tuon, their Two Rivers partners stumble over specific cultural practices (like proposal/marriage rituals), and belatedly give indications of interest that were not intended as such (the ivory bracelet and the razor horse), but otherwise, culture isn't really a thing. Mat and Tuon more or less know what they are getting into from the start, and as the OP says, are aware of the cultural divide and both are actively trying to bridge it. The problems with Rand & Aviendha, for all they are superficially blamed on ji'e'toh, are more a factor of their own personalities and self-images than cultural problems. Again, Aviendha's nominal relationship to Rand is to facilitate his cultural understanding.

When Elayne is bewailing her inability to approach Rand or initiate an exploration of their potential for a relationship, Egwene cites some of the courting practices of the Two Rivers, which Elayne seems to find rather unhelpful, and to be fair to her, are rather impractical in their circumstances. Egwene simply intends this as an example of the principle that there are ways to communicate romantic interest without taking the risk of openly stating/asking to the other party, but what they are overlooking is how culture is a language. Rand would understand what Elayne meant if she did the things Egwene mentions, in the right context. Instead, Elayne & Egwene go with their on-page approach. And while part of Rand's refusal to accept the depth of Elayne's interest and affection for him has to do with personal factors, a good chunk is that he sees a gulf between them thanks to her rank, that she is unaware of.

In Elayne's aristocratic culture, marriage between people who have never met is not unexpected, and her own marriage might be pursued through any method, up to and including high-level diplomatic negotiations. In Rand's, everyone knows everyone, they grow up in each other's pockets, and marital partnerships evolve organically, with both of them knowing each other to a considerable degree as the relationship forms and by the time it is formalized. Basically, he does not know Elayne nearly well enough for him to be comfortable considering the level of commitment she wants (and refuses to tell him). Furthermore, marriage is an economic partnership, and it being a preindustrial society, male physical labor is going to be a significant source of the income for a family, and thus men are conditioned to consider their obligation to support and "do right" by their partners. This is the premise behind the obligation to marry Aviendha which he perceives after their sexual encounter. Because of his imposed vocation to save the world, Rand is not free to "do right" by a wife, and so, in turn, he does not feel as if he is in a position to make any requests of Elayne, relationship-wise, especially anything that might imply a commitment he cannot fulfil.

This stuff is cultural, because it is all utterly meaningless to Elayne's situation. She is vastly wealthier than he, and does not need his partnership. At her economic level, and in her society, the lack of a male partner is not as detrimental to child-rearing that it might be in a rural agricultural community. She is not at all thinking of that kind of propriety, because she has been raised in a royal court, in part by a cosmopolitan teacher in Elaida, and her mother has also received a partial education from a transnational institution. For Elayne, propriety is whatever her mother says it is, and the possible repercussions to her public image. As we see when she does become pregnant, that's not a whole lot. The closest to negative opinion seen is Elenia's prejudicial judgment (largely driven by her wish to see herself as a superior candidate for the throne, and thus inclination to exaggerate or invent disqualifying factors in Elayne) that her choice of lovers is poor, due to the presumed social status of the father of her children. So Elayne is not working under the same relationship constraints as Rand, and is completely unaware of their operation on him.

On the other hand, Elayne is feeling emotionally vulnerable in her situation, having carried a one-sided torch for him for more than a year, and feels that the risk of crossing her mother is all she is prepared to take. She's willing to take whatever risks come with a relationship with Rand, up to and including death (re: Ilyena), she does not feel she is asking too much to want Rand to make the first moves, and be the one to initiate the next development in their relationship. So when she asks him for a kiss, she dismisses any correlation between physical expression of affection and commitment. And Rand's experience with noblewomen and sexual relationships is actually surprisingly extensive at this point in his life, having been the recipient of attentions of Saldaean noblewoman in situations he considers implicitly sexual (though they do not), approached by two different married women in Cairhien at a party, and being made to understand that they want to have sex with him and do not consider their own marriages an impediment. And just the night before his "first date" with Elayne, Berelain propositioned him, claiming that his purported betrothal was no obstacle to their engaging in intimacy. So when Elayne says their kiss doesn't mean anything, Rand has what he considers to be a body of evidence that she, a noblewoman, means exactly that. Where Elayne, in her rather sheltered upbringing (as the sole heir to a throne, there is a greater urgency to protect her, and as a future Aes Sedai, sex and men were kicked well down the road on her educational journey), feels like she is basically putting out and giving away samples of the proverbial milk before selling the cow, Rand thinks she is just using him for fun times.

And that's just before he conquers Caemlyn, and his combination of Two Rivers indifference to noble bullshit and foreign protocols and Daes Daemar tutelage with a particularly Cairhienin flavor, manages to do all sorts of things wrong so that Elayne's coronation and their relationship are almost mutually exclusive goals by the time she shows up.

Tuon finds out that sul'dam can learn to channel, yet she continues to insist that damane should be leashed.

Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive or contradictory. There is a difference between learning to channel and channeling. Channelers are seen as a danger to society, and that is a danger that women who can only learn to channel will never manifest. Tuon's explanation of the difference is rational and true. There is a difference between the potential to do something and the choice to do it. Tuon cannot channel, and unless she goes out and learns how, she will never present the same sort of threat. This was a thing back in tGH where Rand was told that, because he was born with the spark, like all damane, would not be able to stop himself from channeling. Whereas Damer Flinn reached a very old age without ever manifesting the ability, so he is the male equivalent of a sul'dam. There is a difference. You can't slot this into your conception of bigotry.

The Wheel of Time, culture and gender

Something I find really interesting about WOT is how it explores the way gender is culturally constructed. So many of the characters have very strong culturally ingrained expectations about gender roles and relationships, and when characters come from different backgrounds, then there can be confusion and misunderstanding. Characters often attribute the misunderstanding to gender, when it’s really about culture - culture as it pertains to gender.

I remember when I first read the scene where Elyas tells Perrin, “I’ve only ever met about five Saldaean women I’d call meek, or even mild-mannered” (TPoD). At the time, I found that unconvincing. How unrealistic! I thought. Coming from the same culture doesn’t give women the same personality! I mean, being raised in the same family doesn’t give you the same personality! I realise now that Elyas is not saying that Saldaean women have the same personality. He’s saying they are all brought up have certain expectations of women should behave and how they should be treated, and so on.

I didn’t understand how pervasive such expectations could be in a mono-cultural society.

Keep reading

[butterflydm]

I should be asleep right now but... ji'e'toh.

The violence in honor and obligation. The self-inflicted damage done to yourself because you have failed to fulfill your obligations.

Duty is heavier than a mountain - Moiraine & Siuan. Choosing duty over love, over everything else, no matter how painful it is. No matter what the cost to yourself and your sense of who you are. Different duties but each of them making the same choice - duty over love.

Anveare, choosing to do what is right, even when it destroys her hopes of a future for her house (and her son). (The contrast between Liandrin and Anvaere!).

Death is lighter than a feather - the conclusion that Ishamael is pushing Mat towards. Choose death over duty. Death is so much lighter than continuing on.

Very scattered thoughts. I really should be in bed. But I wanted to note that down before I forgot. We'll see if it makes sense in the morning.

[claudiaclockwurst]

Just listened to "The Desert Warriors" and I'm kind of losing it

The song literally revolves around "ji'e'toh"

[cannoli-reader]

The "best water carrier ever" was ignoring people who wanted water, in order to be a stalker, and the clear subtext of her determination to be the "best water carrier ever" was to earn a promotion to the next job up the ladder.

It's basically the whole character of Egwene boiled down into a prologue. Egwene never does anything for its own sake, and values nothing except that which she perceives can advance her in status. People think Egwene follows ji'e'toh, because she keeps her word to obey the Wise Ones (although she doesn't), but it's out of fear of the consequences of disobedience. Said consequences being the loss of training in a discipline that had the Aes Sedai extremely impressed and interested in her. People think Egwene is dedicated to learning, and she herself claims this, but she actively scorns any knowledge, no matter how useful or immediately relevant that will not bring her increased status, especially within the White Tower. She frames some of her stances once she becomes Amyrlin as principled positions, but in each case, her choice centers on what will get her the most power, even if it means lying to go to war against other human beings when Egwene knows better than anyone outside Rand just how precarious the state of the Dark One's restraint is. On multiple occasions she makes it abundantly clear that her political position, and even mere convenience, takes priority over any of her friends or their much more altruistic and heroic missions.

To borrow the words of a vastly superior mentor to Siuan Sanche:

"This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph! Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh!"

Luke grew up. Egwene did not.

PSA: If you have not read “Ravens”, the prologue to the prologue in the children’s copy of EotW called From the Two Rivers, then you are severely missing out. I have so many feelings about nine year old Egwene being the best water carrier ever.

[adastreia-blog]

Um, okay. So, thanks to a discussion I read over on Dragonmount recently, I've been making a lot of bizarre WoT references ("time to toss the dice" upon heading into a public restroom was my favorite suggestion from the thread). Today, I accidentally bumped into a random guy outside GameStop and muttered under my breath, "I have t'oh." His eyes lit up, and he said, "Be my gai'shain!" Yeah, I'm never using that one again....

[alectology-archive]

Lowkey I kind of feel uncomfortable about the way the cairhienin are basically appropriating (?) aiel culture. I'm not quite sure rand should be allowed to decide what's a permissible way of adopting a people's culture - I'd feel a lot more comfortable about the whole thing if he consulted somebody like aviendha.