cannoli-reader

[cannoli-reader]

Jordan explicitly stated that. By custom & Aes Sedai point of view, the Warder bond is for life. The only truly acceptable reason to release the bond is to spare the Warder from the Aes Sedai's death. Releasing the bond when he is dying is Not Done. Accepting the pain and after effects of his death is part of the process of mourning him and showing respect.

As far as releasing the bond because the Warder is unwilling, it is nominally acceptable and it is done, as Elyas tell Perrin, when discussing his own bond with Rina, but, it's seen as breaking a lifetime commitment. Basically, it's like an 18th century divorce: society (in this case, the other Aes Sedai) might accept that you need to do it, for whatever reason, but they are going to give her the side-eye for making a bad match in the first place.

With Alanna, I think it's a bit of a sunk cost fallacy. Releasing Rand is tantamount to admitting she was wrong to bond him in the first place. As long as she's bonded to him, she can maintain the position that what she did was necessary and right, and the benefits he gains from the Warder bond and her ability to keep tabs on his condition and location are a benefit, so fuck the whole bunch of you for judging me! Her outrage at the revelation that Rand let someone else bond him is part reflexive or habitual attitude toward a normal Warder bond, and half feeling the loss of her excuse, and so she rationalizes the thing about needing to be sure the presumed other sister (because, of course it has to be another sister, who else could do it?) is competent, again, moving the goalposts, and keeping up her excuse.

The other thing going on, I think is whatever Jordan was coyly alluding to with the comment in the glossaries that "what the Aes Sedai gain from the bonding is a closely held secret" and there seems to be implications that there is something just inherently pleasant or beneficial or gratifying about having such a bond. There is also the references to the Aes Sedai drawing strength from the bond, which I don't think means they draw from the Warder's strength or physical reserves, because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, when you expect the Warder to carry the physical load in your partnership.

My theory is that, since the Warder is getting the vitality and endurance from somewhere, and clearly not the sister, it comes from the One Power. Through the way that an Aes Sedai's life is extended, and aging slowed, correlating to her strength in the Power, we see the One Power has a beneficial effect on the human body (also, there do not seem to be any cases of channelers with congenital physical or mental problems). The sensory aspects of the Warder bond are described as very similar to linking, and there are issues of using the bond for compulsion, and the bits about involuntary linking, so what I think the Warder bond is, from the perspective of the One Power, is akin to finding a way to link in a manner of speaking, with a non-channeler. The Warder can't use the link to channel, because he simply is not capable, but he is otherwise connected to the bondholder through the Power, and the enhancements are through that effect, like sensing Shadowspawn and whatnot. And when that link is created, which generates "life force" for lack of a better term, through the One Power, the Aes Sedai can tap into it too, and thus they can "draw strength" from the Warder. The one time we explicitly see it, through the PoV of the Aes Sedai doing it, is Elayne, from Birgitte, when they are trying to escape her unravelling gateway. Birgitte is wounded and Elayne is depending on her to lead them to safety, while she & Aviendha are concentrating on channeling. For practical reasons, and her care for Birgitte as well, Elayne would not be drawing strength from Bigitte if there was any cost to the Warder herself. What she is drawing on is the strength from the One Power that is going to Birgitte from the bond, and that, like the Power itself is inexhaustible, so Birgitte loses nothing from Elayne doing that.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I think there is something that makes having Warders desirable, that also contributes to the reluctance of sisters like Alanna or Rina to release a Warder, above and beyond the Aes Sedai taboo against it. Maybe its something like Rand describing how quickly his bond with his partners becomes normalized in contrast to Alanna's, but moreso with the sister, and releasing the bond is like losing a limb - it feels like something you're supposed to have and even the idea of the loss feels like a diminishment of yourself, regardless of how aggravating it might be due to the particular circumstances, like a painful injury or debilitating condition or infection which makes retaining it a net loss or cancels out the utility of the part itself.

“I am not so lost to custom yet as to bond a man against his will. Not quite yet.”

You get there, Alanna. For all the good it does.

[cannoli-reader]

I was going to say that unlike most such parties, they eventually realized their mistake, but then, Sorilea was the one who articulated that bit, and she wasn't part of this confab. She does, despite Egwene's apprentice-level perspective, seem to have a more laissez-faire attitude wrt Rand, understanding that there are limits to the control one can exercise over others, a view she seems to share with Verin and Cadsuane, and like the latter, seems to prefer to concentrate on moral formation, and trust Rand to get things right on his own.

The only mitigation I would offer for the dreamwalkers' little ploy here is that it's really an ulterior motive to get Rand & Aviendha together.

Regarding the dreamspying and the cultural differences, I wonder if the Aiel all more or less give tacit consent because their culture understands that the Wise Ones do this stuff with their good in mind, and adhere strictly to professional ethics, like a doctor or lawyer. The only real instance we have of their dreamspying is when they were watching Rand later, but it was in the context of watching for a threat, which we know was real, but Rand took exactly the wrong interpretation from Aviendha's inadvertent admission (note that despite the Wise Ones being displeased with her, there is no mention of punishment, compared to her self-requested penance for her romantic idiocy). Anyway, I don't recall any instances of them being nearly as chuffed about his shielding as Egwene.

What I think happened was the Wise Ones mentioned that his dreams seemed secure now because he was shielding them, Aviendha, still in her hyperscrupulous Maiden mentality, owns up to revealing their dream watch, the express displeasure because of her error of indiscretion probably giving him the wrong impression, and it being a bad habit to get into in general, but it's about Aviendha's training (like giving her extra beatings for bothering Bair about her honor crap in the first place, or driving her nuts with BS chores to provoke her into demanding her promotion), not about intelligence-gathering.

The problem here is Egwene. Egwene is learning their skills and powers without the Aiel discipline (this also fucked them over in the "has no feeling for us as his people" area because they did the same with Tigraine, resulting in her child being lost to the Aiel for 20 years) or ethics inculcated in her upbringing. And I wonder if this is not another case of Jordan using an outsider to expose a flaw in the ethics of cultural practice, that can be workable if everyone is on the same page, and amenable to following the unwritten rules, but the potential for abuse with a single bad actor is rather shocking when a Tylin, or Sevanna, or Edeyn Arrel, or Egwene/Siuan turns up.

"Then we must watch him closely and hope.” Bair sighed. “Aviendha, you will meet Rand al’Thor when he wakes each day and do not leave him until he goes to his blankets at night. You will stay as close to him as the hair on his head."

This shit pisses me off every time. And their dream spying, too. Cultural differences my ass. They have no right to invade his privacy so. If they wanted influence, they chose exactly the wrong fucking way to go about it.

[cannoli-reader]

One way Tobias could end up in Rachel's orbit is if random chance, or Ellimist/Crayak shenanigans cause Naomi to somehow take up a pro bono case involving Tobias' juvenile situation, because someone reports troubling aspects of his homelife, or Loren recovers enough memory to pursue an investigation of her son's circumstances and explore visitation rights or custody, and Naomi gets her case.

For Marco, DYFS or CSP or whatever they have in California in the 90s intervenes in the case of Walter's neglect, and they both end up together in some sort of care situation, and when Walter gets his head on straight, and gets Marco back, takes in Tobias as well, because Tobias helped Marco somehow, or he is so appalled at whatever situation he finds Marco in, that he rescues the other kid as well.

BIG THINK: Tobias fostered by one of the other animorphs parents

I'm drawing a blank as to how the kids could do this while still maintaining their cover. Only Jake or Cassie's parents are likely to get permission to foster a kid, Jake's house is a bad idea for obvious Tom-reasons, and Cassie's might work but she'd have a heck of a time explaining how she suddenly knows this kid so well. Anyone else have ideas?

[cannoli-reader]

Just so he had always laughed when his grandest expectations went awry. - Egwene making a character observation actually consistent with outside evidence

Mat's propensity for hiding his own pain is the trait his friends and neighbors seem most aware of.

He did not complain, though, which was a bad sign. Mat was a great complainer at small discomforts; if he was silent now, it meant he was in real pain.

[cannoli-reader]

"no weird flora. zero fauna. no birds or insects or anything."

WoT characters are always noticing the plants and animals around, when they are out of a city or town. Or most of them. The Two Rivers people, all being country folk do, and certain characters more likely than others (Perrin vs Egwene, for example).

And there was that infamous shot of the Tinker caravan, heading "North" into the setting sun.

"aael looked vaguely consistent as a race."

I have not studied them to be sure, but this isn't really true. They hired a lot of Scandinavian actors for speaking parts, but the first, and primary, to date, Aiel character with lines was Ayoola Smart, an African-Irish actor and there are plenty of other races in the group shots. What's more, unlike any other ethnic group, they highlighted the issue by more than once claiming that Rand (played by a Slavic-Dutch actor) heavily resembles an Aielman in his physical appearance.

One of the most commonly cited characteristics of Wheel of Time is the clothing descriptions, which the production team has taken to be artistic license to go wild with the costuming, without actually, as noted in OP, making any coherent themes, fashions or styles.

"most importantly, does rand have more than one expression (distressed)?"

Yes, admiring (directed only at female characters), and self-satisfied.

i think another thing i find so jarring about the wheel of time sets and costume design is how dead it all is. the sets have no presence of being otherworldly. it’s just desert, town, hills, forest. no weird flora. zero fauna. no birds or insects or anything. it’s too clean. it’s lifeless. the sound design is off (why is there an echo in a desert?)

then the casting and costumes are just completely color blind, further destroying the illusion of presence or progression. everyone in every city looks the same except they have different clothes. people talk in vaguely ethnic accents. everyone has a tradition of walking a way, a path or whatever as a rite of passage. everyone has a very serious vaguely-asian honor code (proof a white man wrote this lol). only the aael looked vaguely consistent as a race. but then their fashion. why tf would desert people wear metal? where are people getting all this leather from? what are kitenge fabrics doing in the medieval highlands???? why is no one dressing in accordance to where they live? why are people wearing traditional patterns completely divorced from whatever they represent as people. why are people in one city wearing clothes from seven different decades with literally 0 explanation as to why those styles even exist?

and most importantly, does rand have more than one expression (distressed)?

[cannoli-reader]

I get the feeling the Aes Sedai would prefer to use intense, personal discipline with the novices to prevent burning out, then give them training wheels that will have to come off some day, and then they go hog-wild with their newfound freedom, and oops, same result. From what Verin says in their first lesson, it's better to build up the discipline as their strength grows. In the late books, we see Elayne having to consciously make an effort to let go of the Source, and call to ming novice lessons about the dangers of getting too fond of it.

I think the protective doohickey for the novices would be more likely to build up a false sense of security and unearned confidence, that would invite even riskier behavior once they can push their limits.

As for the clarification... Yeah, though the a'dam would work just as well, as a trust exercise, if nothing else. In that particular case, the Aes Sedai have their teaching Bible, and would probably sniff in disdain at the notion of some newfangled shortcut ... Until the next generation of sisters draft to teach the enormous novice classes are forced to turn to it in desperation.

The a'dam could be reworked into a training tool. How useful to bring an initiate into channeling without all the regular dangers! Pull off the torture aspect, and the prisoner aspect, and you have a really great way to initiate channeling, prevent burnout, and guide another's weaves. Fourth Age can make it happen. I have faith in them.

[cannoli-reader]

Well, every sister is free to make that choice for themselves, and for absolutely no one else. Six centuries of slavery is not a guarantee. Ask Teslyn or Edesina or Egwene. Ask the damane taken from among the population who are freed in the series. Ask the Windfinders freed in the Escape. Many people would prefer slavery and a thin or even false hope of escape or deliverance to death. It's why slavery, you know, exists. Most people who say "death is better than X" mean other people, think they will never actually be in that position, or go into danger assuming they will escape somehow.

I don't see how this Oath makes the sisters the same as every other fighter. In any current battle with the Seanchan, no captured Aes Sedai can be made to weave anything she thinks of as a weapon. No woman who has not sworn the Three Oaths would be affected by this "solution." What is your thesis, that the Aes Sedai are cowards and should be motivated to fight to the death? Again, the Seanchan are actually pretty open to utility in putting former enemies to work, rather than outright slaughter. Former enemy soldiers can serve in their army, and all channelers can be spared to be collared, except men. Former political opponents can be coopted. Even enemies who cross a line are often enslaved, retaining life, and with it, hope.

If this is predicated on some calculation that denying the Seanchan assets is more important than the lives of your own side, I am not ever buying that. Any faction, organization, institution or state that mandates suicide or imposes suicide conditions or mechanisms loses its moral authority. Any force that murders its own personnel rather than allow them to be taken and used by the enemy forfeits its right to its personnel's loyalty or obedience. The day the Tower advocates, pardons, or makes a policy of murdering mareth'damane, or causing the death of damane in anything other than the heat of combat, is the day they lose any and all moral high ground over the Seanchan.

The a'dam could be reworked into a training tool. How useful to bring an initiate into channeling without all the regular dangers! Pull off the torture aspect, and the prisoner aspect, and you have a really great way to initiate channeling, prevent burnout, and guide another's weaves. Fourth Age can make it happen. I have faith in them.

[cannoli-reader]

Robert Jordan did this one decades ago. The catch is, the Princess does not know what the swear words mean, or quite grasp how to use them in context. She has been extremely sheltered, as the sole heir to her mother's crown, and while possessed of an incredibly sophisticated political, diplomatic and administrative education, has not quite got the same education on the more sordid aspects of life, and her access to romance or sex or anything that might cause complications in her development & education track has been carefully curated.

As a result, she makes active attempts to learn swear words by listening to crude or rough individuals in her proximity when she gets to go on adventures, memorizes the words and phrases she hears, and then lets them out in the wrong context or diction. By the time of Jordan's last book, she has mostly given up cursing, because the tough guys and warriors present are only amused, while the more refined of her companions are like "WTF got into you." So she swallows the frustration until a straw breaks the camel's back, and screams at the top of her lungs. And doesn't get any better results.

The normally soft-spoken and kind Princess has a truly awe-inspiring array of swears and insults. Annoy her enough and you will bear witness to the vocabulary of the royal family and a drunk sailor being used in perfect unison.

[cannoli-reader]

That latter Oath would kill the sister the moment she laid eyes on a damane, sul'dam or a'dam.

Also, the point for the Seanchan is as much removing channelers from the board as making use of them. A channeler they cannot safely collar must be killed, period. By adopting that oath, they've just put a Seanchan target on every single sister.

The a'dam could be reworked into a training tool. How useful to bring an initiate into channeling without all the regular dangers! Pull off the torture aspect, and the prisoner aspect, and you have a really great way to initiate channeling, prevent burnout, and guide another's weaves. Fourth Age can make it happen. I have faith in them.

[cannoli-reader]

Also, 99% of these people only hold to this principle when it's their own ox being gored. So many people who feel for "so many black & queer people feeling frustrated at a piece of media for being racist and homophobic EVEN IF IT'S FICTION" are happy to roll their eyes at so many adherents to traditional values and Christians feeling frustrated at a piece of media for they way they depict immorality and being anti-Christian EVEN IF IT'S FICTION. Don't like magical negroes or buried gays? Don't watch it. Just like you tell the people who don't like porn.

Fandom Problem #8697:

I fucking hate these "Fiction doesn't affect reality 🥺😡" bitches because they'll only use that argument to excuse serious topics being handled badly and act as if people on the internet hadn't spoken about their own experiences where fiction DID affect their reality

I've seen so many people confess how they thought that problematic dynamics were actually okay as children because of these fuckers who put them in a good light, so many black & queer people feeling frustrated at a piece of media for being racist and homophobic EVEN IF IT'S FICTION, etc. There are literally fictional stories being made with bad faith views with the purpose of affecting people's mindsets and you want to tell me that we shouldn't call these issues out just because they're fiction? Oh FUCK OFF

"Fiction doesn't affect reality" Fiction *CAN* affect reality, get your shit together

[cannoli-reader]

Do they also open the bottom of a box that has a re-closeable top?

The Geniuses I Live With

An ongoing series

Opens the package with a self-sealing opening by cutting off the top.

Sigh

[cannoli-reader]

I am never sure how many of Sanderson's poetic justice deaths are intentional, but I am pretty sure one of them is, if for no other reason than the jarring, clumsy, improbable and incongruous setup for it to happen.

“I am not so lost to custom yet as to bond a man against his will. Not quite yet.”

You get there, Alanna. For all the good it does.

[cannoli-reader]

Yep. They want to be the next Game of Thrones, and what they took away from that was contrarian and subversive attitudes toward epic fantasy, plus Shocking Deaths equals smash success and becoming a water cooler topic and a household name. Never mind that Game of Thrones was successful not for the subversion, but because it was closely adhering to a book series that was deconstructing not subverting epic fantasy, while also utilizing the tropes and conventions in new ways, which is basically depending on them, not undermining them. GRRM was saying "there are heroes and villains, and there are worthwhile aspects to chivalry and rulers, but it's not automatic or easy and they are not always what you think". GRRM was saying "look at how awesome, how epic, how grand and beautiful medieval fantasy can be, just don't lose track of the dark sides" GRRM was saying "this is what makes a great hero, this is what makes a lost prince a wonderful story, this is what makes a true knight, a great king, an worthy lord. Being good isn't simple, it isn't a recipe for prosperity and glory, but it's worth doing." D&D were saying "LOL, heroes? Villains? Don't be a child. Everything you love is stupid, we're going to show you why." D&D were saying "We're realistic, look at how dark, grimy, dingy and poverty-riddled pre-modern times were! Also, not being as advanced as us, everyone running around in such settings is a complete bastard, except the characters we want you to like." D&D were saying "Being good is pointless, it's better to win! There is no point to being a good knight, lord or ruler because the ruthless SOB will just kill them and their people. A fighter or leader should be ruthless and smart! Being smart means... um, what was the question? Can we go make Star Wars now?"

Judkins and company looked at GoT's approach, ignored the way it turned out, assuming (as D&D did wrt the heroes of aSoI&F) that they were smart enough to evade the pitfalls and write a better finish, and completely neglected the fact that GoT would never have got off the ground without the vastly superior success, against greater odds, with longer-lasting credibility of the three (and only three) films of LotR, spiritually and thematically faithful to the original work, even if just as flawed in some of their execution efforts as Benioff, Weiss and Judkins, and not remotely making any attempt to subvert anything for more than an occasional momentary in-joke. Peter Jackson took a book series even older, more "outdated" and lacking in feminist themes or fashionable racial/sexual politics, did his best to bring the original author's vision to the screen, and won over the critics, the audiences, the industry and much of the original's fandom, especially considering the amount of cut or altered material.

Wheel of Time, like aSoI&F, pays homage to Tolkien, and is a deconstructive series built on love of, and appreciation for, the genre, that stands out from the legion of imitators and successors of Tolkien (and Howard, White, Lewis, Wells, LeGuin & Leiber, among others), by taking well-known or loved concepts and exploring them in new and different ways. Like Tolkien & Martin, WoT contrasts absolute Evil with abnormally virtuous protagonists, but also makes it clear how virtue is earned, rather than asserted. It shows how the epic heroes rely on the little guy and the everyman to succeed, that the Champion cannot win the day without the man on the street in his corner or at his side. They marry fairy tales written to instruct children, to historical epics describing how our own civilization formed, and explore the origins of mythology in purporting to write a forgotten history of our own world. The success of LotR and the good bits of GoT were very, very possible to duplicate with WoT as the foundational source.

Judkins had two adaptational paths laid out before him, the path of Jackson embracing Tolkien, and the cautionary tale of Benioff & Weiss gradually moving away from Martin. Judkins choose to double down on the failure, by jettisoning Jordan from the outset, ignoring LotR films 1-3, skipping GoT seasons 1&2 and leaping headfirst into 5, 7 & 8.

These people write character deaths as they do, because they don't understand character at all. Their cast of characters is a fungible set of plot mechanisms. Anything a character "needs" to do is an interchangeable plot point that can placed anywhere in the story, as long as it occurs chronologically before other events that rely on it. Anything one character does can be done just as well by another. Any achievement, accomplishment or coolness-enhancing moment is a transferable object or title that they can attach to their favorites characters instead of the one in the book. They can kill off Siuan, because they look down a checklist of plot points in which she is involved, and decide they can have someone else do it (Moiraine or Alanna can get the rebellion started!), or that they can do without Siuan's participation (Egwene can do just fine without anyone's help!), or they don't really care about reproducing that plot point (who cares about Nynaeve Healing Siuan? Egwene or Moiraine can Heal Logain and there will be no difference, really).

Other deaths that illustrate this principle by killing the character in an approximately similar time and place, but strip the death of all meaning, include

Ingtar (zero arc, zero connection to Rand or the MC who replaced Rand in most scenes with him, zero meaning in his death)

Melindhra (Mat who? Their girlpower obsession decided that a woman failing to overcome Mat's thoroughly established luck and quick reflexes was an inferior display of agency to a woman deciding not to kill Lan because of the unsupported-in-the-script choice between her conflicting loyalties)

Ishamael (What, exactly, was he trying to do, and why, in any given scene? How did any of that add up to an explanation of his fight against the "combined" efforts of the Emond's Fielders [sans Nynaeve, of course]? How does paying lip service to his revealed motivations from the later books inform his actions or his death?)

Natti Cauthon (did they expect us to care about the worst thing that happened to Mat, arguably including the Shadar Logoth dagger? Do they realize that a case can be made that Mat's objective inferiority in personal character and quality are the result of Natti's awful parenting?)

Ispan Shefar (Moghedian is now simply a deranged lunatic acting at random, who inexplicably does not kill any of the significant recurring characters)

Dana the Dumpy Darkfriend (the writers think swords are guns and two fit and healthy young men need to run in terror from a visibly unathletic woman holding one; also, the only on-screen Darkfriend to that point in the show is now dead, and not super-competent or on-mission, so they probably are not a problem)

Steppin the Tragic Warder (a Warder losing his Aes Sedai is a Big Deal, just wait to see what Lan has to go through next season ... oh wait, never mind. Also, in his shoes, his options were nonconsensual gay sex or death, and he made his choice)

Kerene (this has created a dangerous and fraught situation, forcing Liandrin to take extreme measures to subdue her killer and prevent the now-untenable program of holding him captive from failing with more tragic results ... until the next episode when we forget that the strongest sister in the party had been killed when they were already having trouble with him, and Liandrin can't defend her actions in response as a response)

Narg (Narg smart. Narg not go down like bitch, turning back on armed opponent)

Marin al'Vere (are we not going to discuss the con artist using her name who has somehow eliminated all the parents & mentors of the main characters and taken over the village in their absence?)

So I haven’t really said anything about Suian’s death. It seems to be very controversial right now but I’ll give my very luke warm two cents which is- I didn’t like it but I also wasn’t surprised by it.

The show has made it Very clear that they use character death for shock value and shock value alone without much forethought of how it’ll impact that plot going forward.

-the wife they invented for Perrin just to fridge her

-Uno

-Ihvon

-Loial

-Sammael

-and now Suian

Look, I think the show does many things well, i will praise the actors and actresses to death, but the show is very very bad at character death. They also do have a horrible shock value habit, I find irritating. Stand outs include setting up Rand’s sword fight with Turak only to unceremoniously and quickly kill him to undercut the moment knowing many book readers anticipated the fight. It shows a lack of commitment to their own story in a lot of ways.

[cannoli-reader]

What did Rand know that Perrin would not? He was quite vocal about Fain's threat and his own intention to answer the challenge in tGH. Maybe he just assumes Perrin would not have let the passage of time, a new girlfriend, advances from Berelain, and powers with a certain degree of danger, make him forget a threat to their home, when he doesn't have on top of the above issues, any nations to rule, or Aes Sedai scrutiny to evade, and a definite and literal deadline to get everything.

Perrin suspected the latter, and that Slayer was the one who had shot the hawk for no reason. It was another complication he could do without, on top of the Children of the Light.

Poor Perrin. He still doesn't know the larger complication, which Rand forgot to mention. And he will, unfortunately, have to deal with multiple things at once.

[cannoli-reader]

The show kinda-sorta suggests homophobic motivations impel Elaida's vendetta against Siuan and Moiraine. And IMO, Siuan leading off her rant that makes no sense textually, with a declaration of her love for Moiraine, makes the most sense if addressing that subtext. Tacitly confirming their accusations of Moiraine being your criminal co-conspirator does not make sense if you are truthfully asserting that you would die to protect her in the immediately prior sentence. The show suggests misogyny in its framing of the Children of the Light regarding their anti-channeling actions, and basically everything in Liandrin's arc that fails the Bechdel test. And anything the show did regarding the effort to be non-racist was rendered nonsensical by retaining the book dialogue that indicates Rand is visibly and immediately recognizable as an Aielman to anyone who knows what an Aiel looks like, and then showing the Aiel being a multi-racial society.

As Light One points out, the setting of the books has no homophobia or racism, nor misogyny, and the admittedly prevalent sexism is thoroughly bilateral. The show writers clearly missed a lot of the ways this is revealed (since realistic book characters would have no reason to think or speak a direct contrast between their world and ours, the message goes right over their heads) and clearly think they are fixing what they perceive as symptoms of these faults, while at the same time, managing to produce a work that is far more racist, homophobic and misogynist than even shallow or extremist fault-finding poor-comprehension readers can accuse the books of being.

One of the beautiful things about Wheel of Time was that the show decided to create a world without racism or homophobia. There were other types of prejudice that existed in world - based on class, channeling ability, gender - but this was a fantasy world free of the historical legacy of violence and discrimination against Black and queer people.

I think the finale for me (and I suspect for a lot of other people based on posts I’ve seen) ruined that. I had such a visceral reaction to seeing Siuan’s beaten’s body, a trail of blood behind her that speaks of brutality and torture, her lying on the floor crying and whimpering, the pain of pulling herself up to try to assert her humanity, her bruised and beaten face as she speaks, the ending shot of her decapitated corpse - just a body, humanity taken from her completely in the end. I recoiled from those images, half watched it once, and unlike every other scene of Siuan’s in the show, cannot bring myself to ever watch it again.

I don’t think the show intended to bring in any real world context, but it is absolutely what made me recoil, what made me feel sick watching those scenes. You can’t put a Black woman on screen lying face down stripped of her clothes and left in a bloody shift, beaten and brutalized, and not make me think of the violence done to Black women in the real world, now and historically. You can’t show me a Black woman who fights so hard to be defiant in the face of brutality and pain and such violence, but who in her last scene is reduced to a body, a tortured, decapitated body, as if attempting to remove all humanity from her, and not have me think about centuries of slavery and all that came in its wake, all the ways that Black women are still dehumanized today.

I know none of that is within the world of Wheel of Time, but as a viewer who lives in the real world, it’s what makes it impossible for me to watch Siuan’s scenes without feeling sick. I am sure none of this was intentional, but I think when people (creators and fans) push back against audience members who had such a visceral reaction to the choice to kill Siuan in this way, they aren’t thinking of the real world baggage those images inevitably carry. Just because the show’s creators might not have seen a Black woman in a bloody shift, a Black woman beheaded, and thought about the centuries of viewing Black women as nothing more than bodies - not human, just bodies for forced labor, for sexual exploitation, for medical experimentation - doesn’t mean that those connotations don’t exist.

There’s been an uncomfortable amount of people leaving anonymous asks harassing people who have posted about how upsetting they found Siuan’s death. And I hope those people might take a moment to reflect on why these images feel so weighty, even if sometimes that weight is hard to articulate. To remember that there is a real world history of associations with visual imagery. That the images put on screen in this episode echo histories of trauma, violence, and dehumanization done to Black people, women, and queer people. And that while those histories do not exist in world for Wheel of Time, that they are inexorably tied to the show’s interpretation in our world.

[cannoli-reader]

Her later demonic transformation into an inhuman parody of a beautiful young woman is pretty impressive.

JENNIFER'S BODY (2009) dir.: Karyn Kusama

[cannoli-reader]

Well, first of all, Elaida did not take power in a coup, she was lawfully elected, and the only coup was what Siuan's supporters attempted, with their Warders trying to overturn the results of the election by force. You want nuance? Stick with the books, written by a man who looks like a White House chief of staff and political-science professor, compared to the kindergarten dropouts in the show's writer's room. I think the message we are supposed to take from the rebellion and attempted coup is how "what feels right" is often pretty suspect or strictly speaking, criminal, and not everyone waging comparatively petty battles for status and power on the eve of Tarmon Gaidon is motivated by abject greed or base motivations.

I think "a ridiculously graphic way that's basically impossible to miss so now everyone's just scared of Elaida and Alviarin and their motivation is that they saw the huge pool of blood" is about the furthest extent of subtlety or nuance the show's writers are capable of compassing.

i refuse to watch the episode on principle so take this with a grain of salt because I'm fuzzy about a lot of the details...but isn't the point of the Tower coup that it was all done in an apparently legal/rational/almost bureaucratic way? like they have just enough people to vote Elaida in and they essentially just disappear Siuan directly from her office into a cell so that no one really knows what happened to her? Showing that people will side with authoritarian/totalitarian regimes because sometimes following the law seems more compelling than doing what's right? Which is a compelling storyline that would gain even more resonance in our political climate? but noooo let's kill her in the middle of a massive room in a ridiculously graphic way that's basically impossible to miss so now everyone's just scared of Elaida and Alviarin and their motivation is that they saw the huge pool of blood in the middle of the damn hall. Like you lose any opportunity for political commentary or moral nuance going forward