#jgy should have killed more

[acequinz]

I am a not a JGY apologist but in the he fucked up where he fucked up and he did some good things and some terrible things.

And the fuck ups are him not cleaning his crime scene properly.

Like babygirl if you only you were as ruthless as you were presented in the end and actually didn't leave behind the trails.

If you had killed all the women you used to kill jgs instead of letting one go because she was nice to your mother, if you had gotten Qin Su's mother's confidant killed while just to make sure no leak could happen.

Maybe if you hadn't actually tried to help NHS with responsibility while he grieved, if you had gotten him out of the way as well while he was trying to find his footing?

If you hadn't actually tried to collect your mother's remains from the temple or if you hadn't separated lxc from the rest of the sects when they went to burial mounds where you planned to have them ambushed and hopefully killed.

If you had immediately killed the people in guanyin temple the moment they were unable to fight back....

Like technically if he was as ruthless as imagined him to be in the end I think he should have committed a lot more murder and it would have definitely made things easier for him.

However he didn't cause he doesn't actually enjoy the murder but he won't hesitate if you pose to be a threat.

The only confirmed kills on his hands, are one from the wars and everyone's hands are bloodier when we count that, NMJ (tried to kill jgy multiple times before jgy got him on the first try) , jgs and the ladies ( anger for the ladies justified, jgs totally deserves to die though) and that one sect that opposed the watchtowers.

Before anyone screams Rusong, it was a speculation by sect leader yao and that man only speaks rubbish. So I am not counting that. (Not because I think he's incapable of doing it but because it would benefit him more to have Rusong alive as his son that be dead and if he really wanted a reason to get rid of the sect then even a feinted attack would work than outright murder, It's not about capability but reasoning, there's not enough profit in dead rusong than there is with an alive Rusong so logically it doesn't make sense.)

This is not a defence or apologist post. I just think he should have committed more murder for a steadier position.

Now it depends if you consider those things a proof that he wasn't as polished as people thought he was or a proof that he wasn't as ruthless as he was pictured in the end.

But either way, in the end he lost cause he didn't kill enough.

Cause mind you! He had the chance. At one point he could have easily killed Lan Xichen, Lan Wangji and even WWX, JC and NHS instead of holding them captive until they were freed of constraints and he was killed.

[wutheringskies]

I think in MDZS there is a fair share of nurture as well as nature. if Xue Yang lived similarly to WWX and didn't lose a finger he would still kill dogs, hunt and hound them and deeply resent and wish to take revenge on/or slaughter the Jiangs; that is his nature to think of himself as more important than the others; the nurture part comes in with the fact that if he had people like Xiao Xingchen earlier in his life; just like he stopped "night hunting walking corpses" he wouldn't have acted out on those impulses; however you cannot deny that being favoured by the jins, he did have stability; he chose to abuse it. he put xiao xingchen giving him chocolates and showing him kindness as of more stable of a state (which is right) yet the moment he is pushed up in a corner, he reverts back to his NATURE. and in his nature, he hurts others to protect himself. if others did x to him he can kill not only the person who did it but also everybody else who is close to that person, who didn't deserve to die. yet, he won't see HIS actions as crimes. won't regret them. thus, Wei Wuxian says, "if you had to kill someone, you should've executed yourself" because some characters have a strong moral code and fail to adhere (nie mingjue, lan xichen), some's adherence to their moral code makes them fail (wei wuxian, xiao xingchen), some do not have a moral code (jin guangsham), some are willing to push it aside for revenge (nie huaisang) and some twist around their watching frames to justify their immoral behavior (Jiang Cheng, xue yang, Jin Guangyao)

[winepresswrath]

trying to plot out a xichen/huaisang emma au solely for the purposes of slotting jin guangyao and nie mingjue into the already married siblings role. in theory this leaves us with no one to play emma's dad but no they're both emma's dad for maximum impact. and obviously jin guangyao is also the nanny. and it ends with huaisang vowing to be worse, actually.

[waitineedaname]

something that will never fail to be amusing to me is when an mdzs college au needs the name of a professor, and then suddenly shen qingqiu is there

[thatswhatsushesaid]

i know you're just asking for the single worst take, but i'm just going to reblog a whole whack of them.

other than the serialized anti-jgy manifesto someone with too much time on their hands is continuously updating on reddit these days (go take a look if you're curious and have a higher tolerance than i do for being condescended to like a toddler), some of the worst ones i've seen in recent memory:

"jin guangyao intended for nie mingjue to qi deviate at the qinghe martial conference, and also intended for him to kill nie huaisang in the process"

"actually jin guangyao is the one who sexually harassed mo xuanyu"

"jin guangyao felt contempt for lan xichen"

"meng yao was playing both sides during the sunshot campaign and would have sold out the sunshot forces for one corn chip"

"jin guangyao would have killed jin ling in a heartbeat if he thought jin ling was an obstacle to his ~ambitions~"

"jin guangyao got off on watching his father's death"

"nie mingjue was jin guangyao's murder-target from the very beginning"

"jin guangyao made qin su kill herself"

"jin guangyao would have killed lan xichen if he'd gotten in his way"

all of these 👆👆👆 are real arguments people have made to me personally

haterpost incoming

jiggy fans, what is the single worst take on him you've ever seen?

[sonik-kun]

Reminder that canon Jiang Cheng is:

- Self-sacrificing. There have been numerous examples in the book where JC is willing to lay down his life for his family and sect without a second thought. Charging at Wen Chao and Wen Zhuliu in the turtle cave. Stepping in front of his mother to protect her from the core melter hand. Distracting the Wen before they discovered WWX. Offering himself as a hostage in return for JL in the Guanyin Temple incident, etc.

- Fiercely protective of his family. The above bullet point elaborates on this part well. But I would also like to add that he is extremely protective of JL. He follows him on nighthunts and is the first person JL calls for whenever he is in trouble. The moment JL sends out a flare, JC is instantly in there, dropping everything for him.

- He allows JL to be a child. Despite the historic context and the stiff upper lip attitudes of that time period, JC allows JL to be a child still. He is spoilt rotten and never knew the same horrors those of his previous generation had to endure. JC does all he can to keep him safe from that to prevent similar incidents from happening again. He also allows JL to healthily express his emotions and never once scolds him for crying. The moment he sees him upset, he's in there soothing him, ready to throw hands with whoever hurt him.

- He doesn't use corporal punishment methods on JL despite it being the norm of that society. JL explains this to WWX who was shocked to discover that JC doesn't punish JL, despite his threats. JL is horrified by the notion and is very comfortable and secure around his uncle. Secure enough to give him sass even, something JC would never dreamed of doing to his elders.

- He is an excellent and attentive leader. He built his sect from the ground up and recruited people on his own all whilst he was still a teenager, still recovering from trauma and torture. He brought his sect back from the brink of annihilation and built it back up as a major sect on very minimal experience with little next to no guidance.

- He's politically savvy. From a young age, he was always socially aware of everything, valuing the safety of his sect and family above everything else. He correctly predicted WWX's downfall and tried so much to warn him and save him from it. Powerless in that moment, he chose his sect over WWX in fear of them being annihilated a second time should he side with him. WWX understood and respected this, so defected of his own accord.

- He still believed in WWX and held onto hope for him, even when things were looking bleak. Despite WWX siding with the Wen, the sect that almost annilihated his own, JC allowed WWX to go with them and remained friends up until WWX inadvertently got JZX and JYL killed. He still allowed WWX to see his sister and even name his nephew. They visited each other in secret regularly despite the risks of being caught, and JC tried to defend him even in the face of the three most strongest sects. He wasn't successful, but he tried.

- He is more reasonable and level-headed than the rumours lead you to believe. We see this when the prostitute comes to testify about JGY. He calmly considers her word and everything she has to say. Not once was he rude or snappy with her. He also remembers his etiquette and addresses elders with manners and respect. He may at times be quick to anger, but he is also quick to calm himself down and conduct himself properly as we see in his first scene where he lets "MXY" go, despite being a practicing demonic cultivator.

- He let's WWX go in the end. The moment he learns the truth about everything and that WWX wasn't entirely guilty for everything everyone accused him of, JC drops all feelings of aminosoty towards him. He doesn't blame him, nor does he actively pursue him anymore and demand he answers for his "crimes." JC got all the answers he wanted from him and instead of holding on to grudges and resentment, he let WWX go to be happy with LWJ, despite clearly wanting him to come back to Lotus Pier. He understands and respects that WWX is ready to move on and start a new life with LWJ. It hurts him, but he respects that decision.

There are many more positive traits I could discuss here, but I'll be here all day if I did.

JC is a nuanced character with a lot of flaws, but he also has a lot of positives that make his character realistic and relatable but also very likeable. He is a traumatised man with a troubled past, but he never allowed it to truly bring him down. He persevered, built up his sect, and raised a nephew with a pure heart. I think it's safe to say that despite his problems and despite everything he has gone through, JC is a survivor with a strong heart. He has a lot of admirable traits that you mustn't ignore or deny if you truly wish to enjoy and appreciate his character.

[danmei-confessions]

I think we should talk about Wu Zetian, China’s only female emperor, who historically has been regarded as a horrible and brutal leader.

She was born a commoner, became a concubine to one emperor, married his son and then took the role of emperor for herself when he died. She was politically adept, highly ambitious and extraordinarily intelligent.

History has accused her of smothering her newly born daughter and blaming a rival for her death. She had that rivals hands and feet cut off and then had her thrown into a vat of wine in which she was left to drown. She gouged out another rivals eyes and had acid poured down her throat. She wiped out 12 entire branches of a clan. She poisoned her mother. Just how accurate these things are is up for debate, but while these things might not all be true, she certainly did have several family members killed. And she did deal with her rivals and her detractors ruthlessly. Yet none of these things would have attracted criticism if she had been a man. She was no more scandalous than any other ruler during that time period.

But! Her rule was peaceful and prosperous. She avoided wars and welcomed ambassadors from as far away as the Byzantine empire. She changed laws so common people could be chosen for roles in government for their abilities rather than their name or status. She acknowledged and acted on criticisms from her retainers. She built watchtowers along the Silk Road so merchants wouldn’t be harrowed by bandits. Her reign saw women given more freedom(the ability to divorce, hold government positions, travel, hunt and ride horses, to be recognized by scholars).

She supported Buddhism and helped the religion spread and grow through commissioning temples, monasteries, and even a statue of the Buddha said to be carved in her own likeness. In the eyes of the common people, she likely would have been an incredibly popular ruler.

She remains a controversial figure primarily because of stories about her personal actions against her rivals by male Confucian officials who were prejudiced against strong and ambitious women and while they undoubtedly exaggerated aspects of Wu’s life, there is still substantial verifiable evidence of her ruthlessness.

We should also be aware that although she allegedly held her power through murder and merciless, according to Confucian philosophy, ‘while an emperor should not be condemned for acts that would be crimes in a subject, he should be judged harshly for allowing the state to fall into anarchy’ and viewed under this lens, Wu did effectively fulfill her duties as a ruler.

So we have a leader of ancient china who had two faces, one who committed acts of vile cruelty against her family and rivals and one who gave her citizens peace and prosperity.

Through a modern lens she can be viewed as an evil woman who rose from humble beginnings and coldly and calculatingly murdered her way into arguably the most powerful position in the world. A rich woman who threw crumbs to her peasant people while she lived luxuriously. She is a deadly woman, a black widow, an evil stepmother, a kinslayer. But according to historians, “without Wu there would have been no long enduring Tang dynasty and perhaps no lasting unity of China.”

The comparison to a modern mr beast obviously doesn’t hold water, but we can certainly analyze jgy to a more comparable historical figure and argue more accurately in a historical context if jgy was a good leader as the de facto emperor as the cultivation worlds Xiāndū.

It’s easy to see the comparisons between Wu and jgy, both were undesirable and deemed unfit by society. But both were politically adept, highly ambitious and extraordinarily intelligent. Both had family members murdered, perhaps sharing between them filicide. Both had a clans murdered to a man. Both are thought to have had their faces carved on religious relics for their narcissistic pleasure. Both had watchtowers built as a defense for their people. And both were torn down by the men following after them, vilified and distorted. Both forever destined to be speculated upon and misunderstood. Both of their legacy’s destroyed by rumor and falsification. It would not surprise me in the slightest if mxtx didn’t draw on Wu at least a little bit in the creation of jgy. Both Wu and jgy are culpable for some pretty heinous stuff, that can’t be denied. But like Wu, jgy also has a second face.

Moral bias and character motivation aside, his efforts to build watchtowers, his patronage of religion in the building of Guanyin temple, his fight against political corruption, his years long peaceful reign, his charity, all these things lead to the conclusion that under the rule of Confucian, he more than aptly fulfilled his role as a leader for his citizens.

And if you really want to look at Jgys leadership through a modern lens, we really don’t have to look much further than Ingersoll. “If you want to find out what a man is to the bottom, give him power.”

And really that’s part of the tragedy of his character. Because of his background he excelled when he was in a role of leadership. He was good at it.

Whether or not jgy as a literary character is a good person, is subjective and should not be used to measure his role as an effective leader.

All of that being said, jgy is my bestfriend and I love him and would I die for him.

.

[lgbtlunaverse]

It seems the dash has been talking about the Lan Xichen - Nie Huaisang post-canon dynamics and it's gotten me thinking about how discussion around post-canon Lan Xichen's absolutely horrendous mental state often center around the question of "who is Lan Xichen angry at and who does he feel guilty about" which, at its worst, seperates into 2 camps where according to one side he feels guilty about not protecting jgy and hates the Nies and, on the other side he has completely flipped on jgy and despises him now while being filled with regret towards both nmj and nhs.

And I dislike both of these takes not just because it often feels like people projecting their own Blorbo opinions onto Lan Xichen which is never a fun time but also because that central question is flawed to begin with. It treats anger and guilt like opposing emotions that can't coexist or, if they do, have to compete until one wins and cancels the other out.

And that's not how that... works.

To be clear, the reason why Lan Xichen is so supremely fucked up at the end of the story is that he believes on some level he fucked over everyone in this situation. And, even more importantly, that even with hindsight he can't actually think of what he should have done instead. Every attempt to do better by one seems to involve fucking over the others even more because these people were in conflict with each other and choosing one would mean standing against another

And none of this would actually stop him from feeling angry at any of them. It's not "who is he angry at and who does he feel guilty about" it's: "he is angry at everyone and feels an immediate and bone deep guilt for daring to think badly of them."

Speaking from personal experience here, but feeling like you're not allowed to be angry at someone because you wronged them really doesn't stop the feeling, it just maks you feel like shit for feeling it. And this is all worsened by the fact that what he's in seclusion for is, at the end of the day, a moral question of what he, Lan Xichen, did wrong and every single emotion serves as further proof of the ways he's failed them.

Is he angry at Jin Guangyao, for killing his oldest friend, using Lan xichen's trust in him to do it, and then lying to him about it and countless other things for a decade when Lan Xichen thought of him as the person he trusted the most in the entire world? Yeah. That's a thing people get angry about! Except Jin Guangyao also saved his life and protected and helped him more times than he can count and never ever hurt him and can Lan Xichen say the same? No. He had to clean A-Yao's blood off Shouyue, he has to be haunted by the fact that if he just hadn't listened to Huaisang- hadn't been just like everyone else, in the end, and believed a lie about Jin Guangyao just to think the worst of him- then Jin Guangyao might still be alive.

Is he angry at Huaisang? For orchestrating the death of his best friend? For making him do it? For knowing what the real cause behind Nie Mingjue's death was and never telling him until he found out in the absolute worst way? Absolutely. But didn't Huaisang hide it from him for a reason? Wasn't it his clan's techniques and his personal faith in Jin Guangyao that cost Huaisang his brother? How dare he demand that Huaisang let him in on the secret of his brother's murderer when Lan Xichen is here wondering about how he should have protected that murderer better!

And I do even think he's angry at Nie Mingjue, sometimes I think it's pretty normal to be angry at your friend for kicking your other friend down the stairs and threatening to kill him, even when you know his mind is being poisoned. And years later the last thing he ever saw of Nie Mingjue was Nie Mingjue's thoughtless corpse coming to kill him before Jin Guangyao pushed him away and then proceeded to graphocally snap Jin Guangyao's neck in front of him. And if what he wants to do is protect Jin Guangyao, shouldn't he be mad at Mingjue? Didn't this whole mess start because Jin Guangyao was afraid Nie Mingjue was going to kill him?

Except holy shit, can you imagine? Lan Xichen feels like he personally has Nie Mingjue's blood on his hands. Your oldest friend is killed in front of you and you happily believe it's an accident for 11 years and now you think you have the right to be mad at him? You watched him get worse as he was being poisoned and attributed it to his illness and not to the techniques stolen from your library with the token you give his murderer. Does he think Nie Mingjue knew who he was in that moment and wanted to kill him? That he blamed Lan Xichen for his death? (For the record, I don't. I don't agree with most of what Lan Xichen thinks about himself, but I've been in a self-blame spiral and I know how it feels)

But what was he supposed to do then? Choose Mingjue's side and let A-Yao die? That's also unacceptable. But so is letting Jin Guangyao get away with it. Every single outcome is unacceptable. And really, if Jin Guangyao felt like he had to kill Nie Mingjue to save himself, when it was Lan Xichen who was supposed to keep the peace between them, isn't that another mark of his failure? That he couldn't protect Jin Guangyao well enough that he felt he had to do something so horrible?

But that's not an answer! He's supposed to know what he should have done different, and all he can come up with is "what you were already doing, but without failing this time" He can't pick a side because that means betrayal, but he's already tried not picking a side and it ended like this! There is no right answer, which can only leave him with the idea that he was simply doomed to hurt the people he loved from the start. No wonder the guy looks like shit when we see him post-canon. They put him in a real life trolley problem and gave him the lever as a souvenir.

[thepurplewombat]

You're so right and you should SAY IT LOUDER!

Like, a solid 80% probably, of the things that caused his downfall would not have happened if he was just a little stabbier!

Accidentally got engaged to your sister? Oh dear, what a pity 🗡️🗡️

Your dad wants you to do demonic cultivation in the basement? 🗡️🗡️🗡️ Oh no what a tragedy the world has lost a great man

Your mother's old friend was a witness and unwilling participant in your (eventual! Literally everyone would have been better off if JGY had been less filial to JGS! Including arguably JGS, who I think would have appreciated a less embarrassing death tbh) murder of his father? 🗡️🗡️🗡️ Such a shame but I'm sure you understand, don't you?

Sect Leader Nie keeps insisting he wants Xue Yang's head? We're back to 'you should have killed JGS sooner' and then it wouldn't be a fucking problem, would it? No JGS no reason to kill NMJ! Just give him Xue Yang's head! It can even still be attached to Xue Yang if you don't want to get your hands dirty!

The saddest thing ever is that things would have gone way better for Jin Guangyao if he were a worse person

[jingyi-ma-boi]

I saw this and decided not to rb with my own piece bc op’s notes are already being bombarded. We all know this is practically canon in MDZS for nieyao. That’s what happened.

What other reason would JGY have to hide Da-ge’s head in his secret chamber? We know that even in death, they tormented each other in that coffin. Not even death did them part.

But of course, this reminded me of that fierce corpse!NMJ AU idea I wrote about not so long ago (this one rotates in my head from time to time. I’m a sucker for dark and twisted 19th-century-style romanticism) and the og post that spurred said idea:

Imagine if JGY succeeded at reanimating NMJ's corpse and instead of the vitriol, the hate, the continued murder attempts, he finds that Da-ge is bent on pleasing him from the start. That he and XY haven't fucked up, and that NMJ's has regained abilities he had long-lost due to the saber curse when he had been alive.

Imagine JGY feeling that this monstrous version of the man he once idolized before everything went south should hate him for having murdered him in cold blood. That NMJ should keep tormenting him as much as he had tormented himself in the spare moments he allowed himself to feel sick with the knowledge that he was killing the man whose life he tried to save in the past.

Imagine JGY thinking at first that NMJ is only doing this to drive him crazy, to taunt him and play with him because now that he’s recovered his lucidity from before the SSC, he is able to recognize the feelings that his Deputy once harbored for him.

Now he is receiving from Da-ge everything he had once dreamt of and more, and it won't make JGY feel better at all.

On the contrary, he feels so much worse for having killed the one man whose hate and disdain affected him the most. Because if the hate remained, his actions would have felt justified. Because if he kept trying to kill him, he could revel in ordering him around as a way to taunt him.

JGY is convinced that they made a mistake, that even if they're here now, reunited past death, he doesn't deserve to let go of the turmoil. He doesn't deserve to feel relieved.

This is not his Da-ge, but a puppet that took his image and now bows down to him out of a twisted sense of gratitude that only makes the weight of fate feel heavier. Either that, or NMJ is willingly choosing to do this just to torment him and test how far JGY will go before he snaps.

He chooses to believe this because he knows that the alternative is even worse of a punishment. A part of him knows deep down that if this puppet that is so eager to please, so eager to show the limitless extent of his worshiping devotion, has regained long-lost abilities that have now been amplified without the restraint of mortality, there's the slim chance that this is real. That this was real before. What does this mean? he wonders.

Where does that place us and everything that happened between us? Did he love me even as he casted me away? Or was his love conditional to my adjustment to his idea of me?

He could ask, but he fears the answer just so. He's already torturing himself with the whole reality of this, wishing that they hadn't been able to perform the ritual successfully.

He can't help but think of how he fantasized about finally having his Er-ge's attention all to himself without NMJ's incessant pestering every time NMJ kneels before him, closing his eyes in what he has figured is now his way of expressing bliss and contentment whenever JGY's praises his work.

He can't help but think of how he dreamt of returning Da-ge's slights towards him tenfold every time this giant of a man curls in the floor around his feet asking for forgiveness.

He can't help but think of the intense disdain and murderous intent he felt after NMJ kicked him down the stairs in the middle of that one qi deviation he had at Jinlintai every time they tread through paths that threaten to soil his golden robes and this corpse that looks like his Da-ge decides to lift him of the floor, saying that his feet don't deserve to touch such filth.

He tries to avoid these thoughts so hard, but he can't. And he feels like this is his righteous punishment for daring to reclaim his birthright as NMJ looks at him dead in the eye and confesses that he loves him.

He feels an intense pain forming in his chest as this wrong version of Da-ge says that even if his skin remains now cold to the touch, the light graze of their fingers on those long nights of warfare in his tent made him feel incensed all over.

He feels nauseous as this twisted version of his Sworn Brother says that even if his heart cannot beat anymore, the sight of his real smiles, the ones that he had thought once he’d been the only one privileged enough to see, made his heart want to jump out of his chest. Made him now want to carve it out and gift it to him if that’s what he wanted.

He doesn’t allow himself to think this is anything other than divine retribution. Mostly because the idea that it could be real, that in another life without war, without the saber curse, NMJ would have loved him like this or even with just a quarter of this intensity, it’s worse. It makes him wish to go back in time, try and change things just so he could get a taste of what is like having NMJ’s love in life as he has in death.

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

(Submission) Why do people feel so sorry for JGY and NMJ again? I enjoy both of their characters but it’s so plain that they both made their bed (the coffin) and must lie in it.

---------

Hello there. I think because many prefer to approach works and characters less from an analytical and outward standpoint,and more of a "well this is what I would do if I were in this situation instead". Which then of course leads to where I can sympathize with these men, despite the surrounding context from the story that lessens that sympathy, very much on purpose.

Yes, Jin Guangyao had a very difficult childhood due to the cruelty of classism, yet he still had a mother that loved him and wanted the best for him, and tried within her means. His love of her though did not mean he had to torture older women still living in brothel life and killing them, he did not need to condemn an entire clan to death because they called him the same as Wen Ruohan and use them once again to claim they killed his son out of hate, when it had been his own hand because of his own obsession of appearing saintly kind and untouchable to the masses of gentry he wanted to be part of fully and idolized.

He is not a working class hero that his fans try to say he is. He didn't do a thing to help civilian life within text, that is actually still pointed to be something only the Lans participate in, and Lan Wangji's own students even more so. He wanted to erase everything about his beginnings because he was ashamed and thought lesser of them, he states that he is better than those he came of.

He also manipulated his own friendship with Lan Xichen to start poisoning Nie Mingjue into Qi deviation and on page confirmation of true demonic arts. Whatever prior to his rise to power, is not an excuse for his continued desperate hold for more even after he was on top especially when he very much tried to kill his nephew who he had raised from birth twice on page. And through all of this displays no remorse for these actions other than miming very weak reasons that even a very naive Lan Xichen can see with nothing but terror at this lack of taking claim for one's actions from malice and manipulations.

As for Nie Mingjue, there is another idolatry with the idea of a strict, but kind righteous brother. When he is not even that. His own traditionalism blinds him from the actions of sympathy and he condemns an entire group of people based on hate of people that have already died, while hypocritically he sits in the same room of those that once had it. While he is proud of his own name, he does not allow the surviving Wens even that because of his hate that has no place after the war he won. He is not even kind to his own brother who he doesn't understand and mocks for not wanting to be anything like Nie Mingjue, partially out of yes, love and worry, but also because his own way of life is the only way of life. That is not tolerance and he wouldn't be even if there was some change to the external plot details.

His hate is the reason he is a mindless dumb corpse unlike Song Lan and Wen Ning, who at their core were always kind people that were strong because of their faith in kindness. Nie Mingjue did not believe in kindness but righteous zealotry and when he thought one was not adhering to his form of righteous zealotry, they were unworthy of basic humanity.

He himself has no qualms with calling Jin Guangyao as he is due to being born from a whore as if that's why Jin Guangyao is evil and cruel. He is a hypocrite in his own words as he is offended that Jin Guangyao views himself as better than lesser class individuals, yet is quick to say it's the reason Jin Guangyao is what he is. That is classic classism in verbiage. It also isn't due to the cruelty that Jin Guangyao exhibits that he cares about, it's what he views as a disgrace to any sort of "righteous" tactics that should be employed instead.

Yes, these men are very nuanced and very deeply layered, but nuance does not mean they were well meaning, kind, tolerant in action, especially when the text implies they are like many many politicians that exist in the world, and even get these same long winded metas cooing over them and making up reasons as to why they're men to be admired, loved, and coddled. Ironic really, from a sociological look into the ways of fandom speech and underlying bias from world wide isms that permeate societies.

[adhdo5]

Also transmasc JGY vision: he is of course lethally stealth. And I mean literally lethally. I'm talking absolute all consuming prey animal terror at another human being knowing. I'm talking unprecedented strap game. I'm talking XY doesn't even know and he's who JGY sends to acquire materials for aforementioned. I'm talking guy who refuses medical care. I'm talking even if top surgery is a concept he couldn't get it because he'd have to kill the surgeon and that would be suspicious. I'm talking "a-Yao are you sure we should be doing this when you have a suspicious chest injury" and even that took even more years than it did wrt a cis reading because the first time he realized there was any romantic overture between himself and LXC JGY, consumed with immediate HE KNOWS terror, shut it down homophobically and excused himself to start planning LXC's death and/or his own fleeing of the country

[labyrynth]

no you’re right wwx just horrifically tortured and murdered his clan’s political enemies on the spot, spent about two seconds killing his (martial) brother in law, actually did a lot of the same things as xue yang himself—and actually succeeded where xue yang largely failed, in creating an undead servant—and animated a bunch of dead girls to act as his accessories (and if they weren’t accessories, i’ll give you one guess what they were for)

jgy died because nhs was willing to throw everything and everyone under the bus to serve his own selfish vengeance scheme. that’s it.

MXTX: so the story starts with the main character's death. Then we unravel his story and how he tried his best but had to resort to fucked up methods in order to create real change and save lives, how society supported him while it benefited them and then turned on him when it was convenient, how his complicated social status of being gentry-adjacent was intrinsically tied into every decision he made AND how he was judged before during and after those decisions, how he experienced abuse and abandonment and support and love, saved lives AND killed people. He sacrificed everything but never compromised his ideals once, and it got him killed.

MXTX: and then we close the story on the death of this other guy, who we're also shown having gone through ALL THAT SAME STUFF, except this guy compromises every single time and that ALSO got him killed.

MXTX: neither of them were killed because it was "right" to, or because they were "evil", but because those with power in society were done with them. Their past actions were used to excuse their executions, and it's kinda fucked up actually, wouldn't you say?

MDZS fandom: 1 billion years of meta on why JGY is an irredeemable villain, and WWX is a pure cinnamon roll

[lansplaining]

why i don’t think jin guangyao killed rusong

(or had him killed) 

“Then... then even if you had no choice but to marry Qin Su, you still could have neglected her,” Lan Xichen said. “Why did you have to... And why go through with the trouble of siring A-Song, only to kill your son with your own hands?” 

Jin Guangyao clutched his head in his hands and said in a bitter tone, “...After the wedding, I never touched A-Su again. A-Song... was conceived before we were married. At the time, I was afraid that a delay would cause complications...” 

So he and Qin Su had consummated their union in advance. If not for that, he would never have ended up committing incest with his own younger sister. He didn’t know whether he should hate his father, who was hardly a father at all, or his own paranoid, overthinking self! 

Lan Xichen sighed. “Next-- and do not attempt to prevaricate-- but answer me. Did you intentionally plot Jin Zixuan’s death?” (7 Seas trans., 86-7) 

This is the sequence where Jin Guangyao lays everything out. Given what he chooses to reveal, it seems safe to assume that he isn’t hiding anything. So why do he and Lan Xichen just completely drop the Rusong question? There’s potentially an answer in the way Xichen frames the question-- that is, it’s a two-in-one of “why did you sleep with her and conceive a son only to kill him” and JGY’s response answers both-- I didn’t know when I slept with her and when I conceived him. 

But why does even the narration seem to forget about it? Why doesn’t it say, “he would never ended up committing incest with his own younger sister and having to kill his own son”?

I think... because he didn’t. I get annoyed by attempts to answer questions that hinge on how someone “would” or “should” act because everyone is different! But! Murdering your own son is something that would demand at least a little emotional unpacking, surely?? Or at least a little more explanation. He was a total innocent, and a child! But we get more time breaking down murders that are ten times more understandable, if not justifiable in the eyes of those listening, just from surface knowledge of the relationships. 

We even get other opportunities for it to come up, and it doesn’t. In the very next section, for example: 

“Despite us being born of the same man, why was your father able to spend his leisure time at home with his beloved wife, playing with his child, while I didn’t dare be alone with my wife and my blood ran cold at the sight of my own son?” (88). 

Again, dropping in “while I was driven to kill my own son” feels a little more rhetorically powerful-- if it happened. 

JGY leaves out potentially morally exculpatory evidence again and again when he isn’t asked for it directly-- like SiSi, like an explanation of how his mother was treated in the brothel he burned. The fact that he doesn’t go into Rusong’s death, and the fact that Lan Xichen just lets it pass without explanation, makes me think that the official version of events-- that he was killed in political retaliation-- is true. 

[jgys-hat]

Now I've rewatched The Untamed having now read MDZS, here are some thoughts (in no particular order):

I found myself liking Jin Zixuan a lot more this time around - the first time I watched I found him kind of boring, but this time I really appreciated him for seemingly trying to be kind and fair despite being posh and privileged. I also found his awkwardness endearing... Oh, and Wei Wuxian is a total dick to him on several occasions, to be honest.

I also liked Su She a lot more this time.

I liked Wangxian a more in CQL than in the novel. I think this is because in the novel, WWX can't read LWJ very well, so sometimes I felt that novel!LWJ came off as somewhat of a flat character, whereas in the show the acting gives a better sense of what he might be thinking and feeling at any given moment.

The flashback episode scenes at Cloud Recesses where they're all young, alive and more or less happy are Painful to watch knowing what's coming next...

I really intensely dislike CQL's inclusion of the second flautist plot point. I think the story is more interesting and tragic if WWX really did just overextend himself and lose control.

On a similar note, I preferred that in the novel the curse put on Jin Zixuan was nothing to do with WWX at all - I think something that's got nothing to do with him being pinned on him anyway adds an extra level of tragedy to the story and adds to the themes the story is trying to put across.

I much preferred the greater level of moral ambiguity that the novel had - it made me really sad that WWX does some really awful things but eventually gets to live happily ever after having had a chance to redeem himself, whereas JGY never gets that chance and just dies horribly :(((

I really enjoyed the extra development that CQL gave to the female supporting characters! I feel like CQL gives a much better sense of how Wen Qing is as a person than the novel does.

JIN GUANGYAO THE CHARACTER EVER... Everything I could possibly say about him has already been said by people who are much smarter and better at writing than me, but I love his character so much... He does do some pretty awful things, BUT he gets put in a lot of impossible situations where he would have been absolutely pilloried no matter what he did, poor guy. "JGY did some awful things" and "JGY was genuinely badly treated by a lot of people" are statements that can and should coexist.

The other thing that I find really sad is that JGY meets his end because of the person he (at least in the novel) killed in self-defence and was genuinely afraid of, and not because of anything actually evil he did, like having his dad's pet serial killer murder twenty women... It's really not justice at all, but I think that's likely the point the story is trying to make.

Listen, I'm just so sad about A-Yao... Maybe people should have been nice to him and he wouldn't have committed crimes :)))

He lived so much of his life in fear of one kind or another and then dies humiliated :))) I'm fine this is fine :)))

I am continually astonished that the censors decided "no zombies for you" but something as gross and horrible as the way Jin Guangshan was bumped off is A-OK.

I think that given how different the structure of the drama is from that of the novel, introducing the Yi City trio earlier on was an understandable and sensible change to make.

I think I may need to scream forever about Nie Huaisang's character arc... The fact that by using LXC to kill JGY he's become as manipulative as the person he hated, and has also forced Jin Ling into becoming sect leader at a very young age, just like NHS himself was by the death of his brother, makes me Feel Things...

...As does the fact that his face as he leaves the Guanyin Temple in CQL is not the face of a happy man - it comes across to me as though he's realised that getting revenge hasn't really given him any sense of satisfaction at all. He must know that his peers are unlikely to really trust him again. I love how in his final scene he's dropped the buffoonish act totally, because now his plan has come to fruition he can outwardly be the person he has been inside for a very long time.

NHS is clearly just as capable of Rage as his brother once was, he just expresses it very differently.

Also, the fact that by the end of the story NHS is likely older than his brother ever got to be :)))

I wish CQL had had some way of working in the scene from the novel where NMJ had NHS' things burned - I think it was nice on getting some background on the brothers and on NHS' relationship with JGY.

JGY and NHS were clearly close once, so watching this happen to their relationship is so interesting to me... The betrayal on both sides is just *chef's kiss*... I actually think they're both quite similar in a lot of ways, but that's probably a topic for a separate post!!!

They are both such cool and interesting characters and I love them both!!

[symphonyofsilence]

Okay so what do JGY haters suggest JGY should have done about NMJ after NMJ's numerous and seemingly unstoppable attempts on his life?

Even if they say he should have done nothing and just awaited his death, he did that, too. Twice. NMJ gave up then but attempted to murder him three times after that.

he was in the middle of trying to murder JGY again when his qi deviation kicked in and finished him first. Both in the show and in the book. in the book, JGY gave him even more chances. He only started to play his remix for NMJ when NMJ offended his mother. kicked him down the stairs, and tried to murder him yet again. But the only thing that saved JGY from NMJ in the staircase encounter in the book was LXC arriving. LXC was apparently nowhere near arriving in the show, so JGY would have died there and then had it not been for NMJ's qi deviation kicking in.

and it's not like he could get a restriction order (and let's be real, even if he could, NMJ wouldn't respect the restriction order. He tried to kill the Jin heir in JILINTAI! repercussions mean nothing to him). He would definitely meet NMJ again and in one of those encounters finally LXC wouldn't have been present to interfere and JGY would have been left at the mercy of NMJ alone. even if JGY did kill Xue Yang ( which would result in JGS doing something to JGY in turn) NMJ would find another reason to attempt to kill JGY again (as he canonically did. JGY had promised NMJ that he would bring him XY's head and it had pacified NMJ for the time being. NMJ's last murder attempt happened because he overheard JGY talking behind his back since NMJ had offended JGY's mother and pushed him down a considerable number of stairs).

So what do you suggest he should have done? What would you do in his place?

Actually, I asked that but I know that JGY antis simply don't think about NMJ's multiple attempts on JGY's life and don't think that JGY was in any danger from him in anyway. It's amazing how people choose to wilfully see the negative things done BY JGY without seeing the negative things done TO him that provoked what JGY came to do. Like he's an ungrateful snake who murdered NMJ for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON after all the good NMJ had done for him. (BTW talking about debts and gratefulness JGY saved NMJ's life from WRH. And in the show from WZL, too.) And once I read someone calling JGY a toxic boyfriend for LXC because he told LXC to die with him before he died? my dude...he told him that WHILE BLEEDING TO DEATH ON LXC's SWORD THAT WAS INSIDE HIM TO THE HILT!!! DO YOU NOT SEE THAT?! kindly allow people to be a little bit verbally toxic (while begging for a little bit of affection from their murderer seconds before their imminent death) to their murderer while being murdered before pushing the said murderer out of harm's way. when the said murderer was moments ago again accidentally suffocating them by putting a silencing spell on them while treating their SEVERED HAND and didn't even originally intend to give them a painkiller. (which I previously ranted about here). Murdering NMJ was self-defense. JGY is only considered the bad guy in that situation because it was premeditated murder since he couldn't fight NMJ head-on due to his natural disadvantages compared to NMJ which no amount of training could improve to the point of getting to NMJ's levels. So he had to do it in the area HE was best at. And lastly, he's vilified because as someone else who I can't find rn said before, his one murder attempt, unlike NMJ's many. worked.