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Second Rate Second Chance: The Letdowns of Love is Better the Second Time Around and Living With Him

And we're back! We brought our good friend @twig-tea back to talk about how two Japanese BLs should have been 10s but absolutely flopped for us. This week we're talking about second chance romances, long-term pining, and their roles in queer narratives. Join us to break down what it's like to watch a show fall apart in real time.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:02:38 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Worked 00:13:31 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Didn’t Work 00:23:32 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:26:54 - Living With Him: How it Started 00:36:33 - Living With Him: Where it Went Wrong 00:44:40 - Living With Him: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:52:03 - Why The Queerness Matters

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

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00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben

And we're back. This week, we're gonna be unpacking two Japanese shows that really let us down this season in our Second Rate Second Chance episode. We've brought our friend twig-tea back to the podcast.

Say hi, Twig.

Twig

Hi everyone.

Ben

We brought Twig back on because Twig and I have been watching Japanese BL and Japanese cinema for a long time. We have seen a lot of the good and bad of Japanese BL, and unfortunately both Love is Better the Second Time Around and Living with Him fall into the bad column for us.

We both have a genuine fondness for the way that Japanese teams often execute queerness with a lot of approachable specificity that really lets both of us connect to the queer truth of these characters.

That's personally important for me because, beyond these shows kind of fumbling the bag, they also undercut the queer narratives they're telling with some of the mistakes they've made. This is something that's becoming a burgeoning issue for me and Twig in our discussions about the state of global BL, and so we're going to also get into that towards the end.

00:02:38 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Worked

NiNi

Let's start with Love is Better the Second Time Around. Ben, what is Love is Better the Second Time Around about?

Ben

Love is Better the Second Time Around is a second chance Japanese BL about two guys in their earlyish 30s who were very close in their teens when they were in school together, broke up, and are now running into each other again as a result of work.

Our main character's name is Miyata Akihiro. He is an editor for some sort of business and economics magazine and he is assigned to work with this writer and professor, who happens to be his childhood boyfriend. They were supposed to be very serious, and then they had a really painful breakup at a crucial moment. Iwanaga Takashi has clearly still been in love with Miyata this whole time and is flirting relentlessly with this man. They work through some, but not all of their issues and are able to start going out together again before the show absolutely shits the bed.

Before we get to that portion of it,Twig! Walk us through the early developments when we were initially responding positively to the show and what we were really dialed in on.

Twig

The first four episodes of this show were some of my favorite television this year. Which is why I’m so upset about the last two, but we'll get there.

When they meet each other as adults, the messiness of their past is established right away, and you can feel the tension between them. The grudge that Miyata holds is really fun to watch. Iwanaga is a real flirt. He leans into the sort of playboy personality that was also really fun to watch.

It immediately felt adult. Iwanaga admitted to having casual sex with his assistant. Miyata made fun of him for it. They had a kiss in that first episode. It was so good. Miyata decided that he was an adult now, and he wasn't gonna be pushed around by his senpai from high school anymore. The assistant, Shiraishi, was a bitch. A really fun bitch to watch. [laughs]

Ben

[laughs] He really was. He was a real bitch for like, the first four or five episodes. I loved it.

NiNi

I enjoyed that.

Ben

He was played by Takamatsu Aloha, who was in Tokyo in April Is… playing Ren there. It was really fun to see him again.

NiNi

He really nailed the whole bitchy, “Who is this new person? Why are they around this person that I am perceiving to be my man? I need to get rid of this person quick, fast. What is the fastest way that I can do that?” Mm, loved it. It was so, so bitchy. Perfect.

Twig

And it played so well to what felt like the point of the story, which was that the main characters are older now, and to have this younger person around acting younger really helped highlight the fact that these older characters are a little bit more mature and so they're making slightly more mature decisions. [laughs] I won't say very much more mature, but a little bit. He actually worked really well to help emphasize that part of the story.

And we learned early on that Miyata was trying to get engaged; we also see him [laughs] fail at it so badly. That scene is one of my favorites, where he's opening the ring box and Fukuda-san, she won't let him propose. She keeps closing it in his face.

Ben

That was honestly one of the most enjoyable meta moments about BL, where the girl who doesn't deserve this sees a very bad proposal coming and physically restrains [laughs] restrains [NiNi laughs] the main character from opening the ring box so he can't propose.

NiNi

It was super funny. So good. She was just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

Twig

It was perfect. And then, of course Miyata then called Iwanaga to complain about not being allowed to propose, which was perfect and gave more opportunities for extreme flirting.

I loved so much that these two characters started having sex again while Miyata was still mad and still unwilling to be in a relationship with Iwanaga. Miyata confirming that the sex did not mean anything.

NiNi

I loved that he was just like, “I wondered if you were good at this. I'm so mad at you right now.” [NiNi and Twig laugh] That was so funny!

Ben

That was also kinda hot, let's be real.

Twig

Yes! Ben and I had a whole conversation about how finally a scene with tension in yukatas pays off and we see people actually have sex.

Ben

Let me tell you. The real sign that you've been in Japanese BL for a while is when you see two fuckin’ boys in yukata sharing a room together and you know no one's gonna fuck.

Twig

Right? [laugh]

Ben

There's a fun one for the listeners. Sound off in the comments. List all of the Japanese BL that put those boys in yukata and then did not deliver.

Twig

But we got it in this one, finally. And we also got that iconic line, “If you love me, don't apologize.” Which is also, whoo.

NiNi

I did enjoy that. “Do not apologize for this because I'm ‘bout to have a good ass time.”

Ben

I wanna do a quick follow up on one of the comments you made about the maturity of these characters relative to Shiraishi in the story. This is a moment where Shiraishi intentionally doesn't deliver a message about an updated deadline to Iwanaga for the column he's writing for Miyata’s magazine. And it causes a real problem because now Miyata has to go rush to Iwanaga, who was away on a work trip, and get him to hurriedly write this article. It leads to an important sex scene, which is great for us and the yukata delivery that we were very happy about. But I really like that Miyata is so done with Shiraishi. When he finally confronts him about it, he's like, “I don't care if you don't like me, but you're fucking up other people’s lives when you do shit like this.” He wasn't angry at him, the just jaded disappointment cut that man to the fucking bone. He was not ready for it.

Twig

It both illustrated Miyata being more mature and also wasn't letting Shiraishi get to him, that you're not actually a threat, but you're now a problem, so you need to stop. It really highlighted how young and petty he was.

Ben

I really love the way you sum that up. “You're not a threat, you're a problem” is so succinct. And that's really what hurt him in that moment, he realized he had really fucked up. There's no winning at that point. There's only the huge loss of face on his part.

Twig

Exactly.

And then we got Miyata jerking off to Iwanaga’s face in the shower.

Ben

It was really accessible sexuality in this show that was actually really surprising for us because we've been dealing with a lot of cutesy BL lately, it feels like, so it was really refreshing to have these guys have access to their own sexuality and be able to express that and act on it.

Twig

There are ways in which sex is handled in BL. Sometimes it's held back to add tension to a story, but it's often also done in a way that makes the story feel puritanical. From episode 1, we knew that they wanted to fuck. By episode 3 they were fucking.

That just felt so refreshing. Yeah, these are grown ass adults who have had a previous relationship before. They know each other, so there's some level of familiarity there. They're attracted to each other. They want to bone down and so they do. That seems perfectly reasonable. It's actually ridiculous it doesn't happen more often.

NiNi

From the moment that Iwanaga sees Miyata again, it's game on. He's like, “Okay, this? This is happening. I don't care what it's going to take for this to happen, but this is absolutely happening.”

Twig

He bought that man cufflinks.

NiNi

He did what needed to be done, absolutely. He was not playing around. He decided that this is what they're doing and he made it happen.

Ben

So I think what I really wanna highlight here about this particular show with the second chance component is we were actually super dialed in on how seriously the show was taking that part of the premise. Iwanaga comes from a very wealthy family and he was dealing with some shit and he was like, we're gonna run away. Normal, stupid kid shit. The two of them planned to meet at the train station and get out of there and go make it in Tokyo. A stupid character we'll talk about later complicates the situation by convincing Miyata that Iwanaga is just toying with him. Miyata is hurt and embarrassed by this, and does not show up to go on the train. The two of them end up separated by Iwanaga’s family circumstances, and that was their big break.

So when they meet up again, Miyata has real beef with this man. And the show doesn't downplay the seriousness of Miyata’s hurt. That was such a real relief. If the characters have done real harm to each other, we do need to focus on the reconciliation that's critical for this relationship to work this time, and that was something that this show was handling so seriously. Even though Iwanaga wasn't actually giving Miyata all the things that we, the audience, were like, he needs to do these things if it's gonna work. His charm was enough that Miyata was wanting for them to complete the reconciliation.

We don't get second chance like this where the breakup was actually the fault of one of the guys, even if it's complicated by familial homophobia stuff. They were serious about each other at the time, but Iwanaga was doing this playboy shit even then. And so Miyata can't feel secure with him because it's the same bullshit again. I like that their 30 year old selves were not fundamentally different from their younger selves. They were just more experienced.

Twig

The last thing on my list of when I was still really vibing with the show is the “feelings-off,” as I like to call it. Miyata challenged Iwanaga, “You never felt as strongly about me as I felt about you” and Iwanaga said, “Try me.” And so Miyata challenges him, “Did you ever cry about me into your pillow? Did you think about me when I wasn't there? Do you jerk off to me, ‘cause I did.” He gives him four or five things to say, “Were you this embarrassing about me, because I haven't seen you be embarrassing about me.” And Iwanaga says, “Yes. I was.” And that's finally the thing that allows Miyata to give him another chance.

00:13:31 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Didn’t Work

NiNi

So we build all that up. We're having a great time. Everybody's vibing with the show. And then it all turns.

From the time that the family started showing up, that was when the show went, to me, off the rails. I was just like, all of this is interesting, but not the same story that they were telling all the time.

Ben

It was confusing. We were in this really solid second chance romance arc where we were focused on the guys rebuilding their relationship with each other. And then it feels like they didn't know what to do with the guys once the “fuck you, don't touch me” barrier falls away. They immediately complicate that by trying to reintroduce Iwanaga's family trauma as this sudden barrier.

This is the common theme with the two shows that we’re gonna talk about, introducing contrived bullshit barriers to keep the characters apart and fuck up their ability to talk to each other when the entire arc is built upon these guys improving the way they talk to each other. That's the real fundamentally unsatisfying aspect of all of this. I'm usually a defender for the way people interact in Japanese cinema. We talk about trying to bring a level of cultural competency to watching Asian media, having been raised in the west. Respect the way that these cultures handle some of their communication protocols when they're engaging with each other. We talk about respecting the way honorifics work in these languages and how that impacts the way these people talk about each other. Listening to some of the tones they use with each other, about how certain terms immediately signify things, and these things don't always translate well. You just have to be able to hear and understand these things. I don't really wanna give these two shows that we're gonna to continue talking about here a lot of credit for this.

This show was in the middle of a really satisfying second chance romance arc of rebuilding a relationship and then completely throws that out the fuckin’ window. Iwanaga is now the male scion of a wealthy family that disowned him for being a homo, but now needs him to come back because his sister is like, “Yeah, fuck all this Japanese nonsense. I'm marrying a foreign man and we're gonna r-u-n-n-o-f-t. That's fine as an arc on its own, but I kinda wish we had like an extra episode or two for these guys to move further along their arc before we introduced that, and it was doubly frustrating because Iwanaga immediately regresses in a way that is not satisfying because he isn't our main character. If Miyata was the one who was suddenly regressing, we have been in that man's head. We were in the shower when he was beating his dick to this dude. We get it. We know what this man is going through. So if he were the one to regress, we would be down with it. We would understand the emotional complexities that he was facing. But the difficulty with Iwanaga being the one to suddenly back off in the middle of all this family nonsense is we never understood the family nonsense. So reintroducing that with this shit heel of a cousin who really wants to fuck Iwanaga was just so deeply unsatisfying, and honestly kind of offensive, because they don't even dwell on it. They're relying on the shorthand of us just going, “Well, they're gay, right? Homophobia. Whatchu gonna do?”

NiNi

[laughs] What I was gathering the story was leading up to the family coming in at that point in time, is that at this point in the story, maybe their romantic feelings had gotten ahead of their commitment. So they're feeling a lot of things, but they haven't talked about a lot of things. They haven't decided what they're gonna do or who they're going to be to each other. They're just sitting in the moment enjoying being together, enjoying having sex and all that kind of stuff. But they haven't really decided what they're gonna be. And then all this family shift comes in so you're just like, oh, okay, they're out over their skis. They don't know what they're doing. All this stuff is happening at exactly the wrong time because it's throwing them back into a history that they haven't really dealt with. Okay, this is good.

But then instead of focusing on that, they focus it towards Iwanaga’s family and what actually happened back then and how it affects Iwanaga, and that doesn't really work? I don't care about that at this point in time. I want to know what's happening with Miyata and Iwanaga’s relationship.

Twig

I think there's room for where we could have cared about it, but we weren't given time or space. There's a story there of Iwanaga so alienated from his family that he wanted to run away with his boyfriend, and they found out about it, and he took all of the blame and didn't let anyone know who Miyata was so that he wouldn't get in trouble. And so his family disowned him. He was cut out of the family registry and cut out of his family’s life. There's a really tragic story there and we're given almost no time to sit with that or care about it. His hurt isn't given any time.

Instead, we just find out that Iwanaga made the decision to let Miyata think he was the butt of a joke and stay heartbroken for years, decade, rather than admit that Iwanaga had family problems when they were kids. And then we see him be willing to let Miyata go again for the exact same reason as adults. And so all of the work we'd seen Miyata do to process what had happened in their relationship in the past and decide to trust Iwanaga again. Iwanaga betrayed that trust, frankly, by not allowing himself to be vulnerable with Miyata. We find out in the very last episode that Miyuata actually fell in love with Iwanaga in a vulnerable moment, he saw him crying alone on the pier, and that was where his feelings turned to love. So we know that Miyata cares about Iwanaga as a person who is not perfect, and he wants Iwanaga to be less cool. And Iwanaga has not learned the lesson.

So, I left this series feeling like I can't trust this relationship to continue in any other way than exactly the way it's happened twice before. It's very frustrating.

Ben

There’s this moment in, like, episode 5 or 6 where Miyata goes and confronts Shiraishi, who decides to stop being a bitch at the final moment. Why?

Twig

I was disappointed.

Ben

He should have been a bitch the whole time. [laughs]

Twig

I just needed to see this man be mean to Miyata one more time and they didn't give me that.

Ben

That's the point, because Iwanaga never has that important vulnerable moment with Miyata. The emotional reveal has to come from the not-rival, which is not satisfying.

You know what? I'm not done bitching. Let's talk about what the show thought it was doing with the cousin. I feel like the cousin is meant here to be the stand in for what trying to be queer and closeted inside of this family does to you. So we get this vile man in Sugimoto who is just so gross and playing these goofy, manipulative games trying to achieve some sort of position for himself or his branch of the family. Is what I think they thought they were doing? It did not land for me at all.

Twig

Yeah. At some point, it seemed like we were supposed to believe that Sugimoto was secretly on Iwanaga and Miyata’s side the whole time. And he was, like, testing them and that test was supposed to be some sort of thing that they should be grateful for. I was like, no.

Ben

I'm gonna do that the next time I get called on some bullshit. You passed the test!

[all laugh]

NiNi

I legit don't understand, like I actually don't narratively understand what happened there. Not just in terms of what they thought they were doing thematically, but narratively that whole part of the story is so confusing.

Ben

NiNi is correct. The first four episodes we were like, “This is a banger. This is gonna be a 10. We gotta tell all the other girlies you need to watch this.” Episode 5 happens, we were like, “Whoa, what the fuck?” And then by the time episode 6 ends, we're like, “Never mind, girls. You don't need to follow us in this one.”

Twig

Shiraishi and Sugimoto have the same role and arc in that final episode.

Ben

Like, we already had a bitch. We didn't need another one!

Twig

Two bitches is too many bitches. [laughs]

Ben

And they didn't even team up and have, like, nasty sex or something.

Twig

Oh my God, I could have forgiven everything if that had happened.

NiNi

First of all, “Two bitches is too many bitches” is perfect, but the other thing is it feels like they thought they needed to have a bitch in the past and a bitch in the present.

Twig

Do you want me to tell you my theory?

Ben

Oh, bestie, I want to hear all of your theories. Go for it.

NiNi

Tell us. Tell us. Spill the tea.

Twig

So I tried really hard to find the manga for this because I needed to know what had gone wrong in the adaptation and I couldn't find it. If anyone out there has it, please send it to me. What I do know is that there are three volumes and that it's still ongoing. One of the things that Japan likes to do, usually one of its worst mistakes when they do an adaptation, is they try to squeeze together at least two volumes into what should be one volume series adaptation. And so we get one really good arc, and then an entire volume or two squeezed into the very end, feeling rushed because they are rushed. So that's my totally uneducated, but based on experience, guess about why this felt like two different shows and two different arcs. Because it probably was?

00:23:32 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

Unfortunately, that is gonna end it for this show. I really want you all, if you've taken the time to listen to us, to really understand that…end of episode 4, we were like 10s, 10s all around. This show is doing some great shit. There's some hot messes here that need to be resolved, but the way that we're being led through this with these characters, the way they're talking to each other, the way we're in it with them was so, so satisfying. Before this show shits the bed.

I am a queer cinema critic who really loves BL and the role it fulfills in the global queer cinema landscape. My goal is to connect other queer people to meaningful stories that they can enjoy. And sometimes that means that we have to say a show really fucked up, guys. If you do watch it, please understand that we loved the show for four episodes and then it transitions in a way that is not satisfying at all. But the first four episodes were still some of the best shit we've seen in a long time. And with that in mind, let's rate this motherfucker!

NiNi?

NiNi

I get to go first. Oh me, oh my.

Ben

We love J-BL, so you get to rate without us giving our ratings. [laugh]

NiNi

I will give this a 6.5. Disappointing me at the end is always gonna hurt me more than something that was wobbly from the start.

Ben

Twig-tea?

Twig

I gave it a 7. After I first finished it I gave it an 8, but the longer it sat with me, the madder I got. So I’ve downgraded it.

Ben

It is also a 7 for me, because where this show goes wrong is very obvious. I think BL viewers would learn a lot about the genre from watching this and understanding where some of us have come from. With that in mind, I'm giving this show a 6.9 from The Conversation because the sex was good in this show.

[NiNi and Twig laugh]

NiNi

Producer privilege rearing its head, I see you, I see you.

Twig

We didn't talk about how pretty Iwanaga is.

Ben

You know, we have not simped over these men. Let's talk about how fuckin’ beautiful Furuya Robin and Hasegawa Makoto were. Holy shit! We have needed some older guys in J-BL—older being 30, for fucks sake. [NiNi laughs] But these guys are fucking beautiful.

Twig

He put on his reading glasses and I [goofy voice] swooned.

NiNi

Hasegawa Makoto was a delight to look at.

Ben

Holy shit! As we're recording this, it is Furuya Robin’s birthday. Happy birthday, sir.

Twig

Happy birthday!

NiNi

Happy birthday, indeed. Keep aging like fine wine.

I'm so mad, though, this show was at 10 right up until, like episode 5, and then it went from a 10 to 6.5.

Ben

It really was. NiNi’s rating is not off. If I didn't think the show was useful to talk about for people, I would have given it probably a 6.

NiNi

Love is Better the Second Time Around gets a 6.9 from The Conversation, recommended with severe caveats.

00:26:54 - Living With Him: How it Started

NiNi

Let's move on to the next show that disappointed us: Living With Him. Ben, what is Living With Him about?

Ben

[deep sigh] Living With Him is about how we will never get the roommates BL that we deserve. [NiNi laughs] All of the energy that we were supposed to get out of roommates BL was lost to the Philippines during the quarantine period. We blew all of that energy on lockdown stories. Goddammit!

Living With Him is about two college freshmen who are going to live together because they were once childhood friends, and their moms think it might be financially beneficial and emotionally beneficial for the two of them to reconnect, since they're both going away to start school away from home and they would like for them to have someone to live with that they also know. We're primarily following Natsukawa Ryota, who is so excited to be going to college. He has dyed his hair brown. He is no longer gonna be doing house chores and taking care of his little sisters. He is ready to spread his little wings and figure out who his actual personality is going to be. He is living with his childhood friend, Tanaka Kazuhito, who is obviously gay and obviously has had a huge crush on Natsukawa for a long time. Kazuhito is also dealing with some major changes in his life—he was a national competing level baseball player in high school who can no longer play baseball due to a shoulder injury. It's very clear that Kazuhito has feelings for Natsukawa, and Natsukawa picks up on this fairly quickly, particularly because all of Kazuhito's friends are being real shady about it.

And I was really excited about what this show was going to be, because this was about two childhood friends reconciling and dealing with this major thing between them. What was really enjoyable about this show—now that we covered the premise of two childhood friends moving together, one of them has a crush, the other one picks up on it—is they talk about this crush in episode 3, and we were primed for the rest of the show to deal with this crush being in the open and reconciling what that change in your relationship is gonna look like.

Where this show goes wrong. After episode 3, episode 4 is them being awkward around each other—a completely reasonable reaction. They come to some sort of agreement by the end of that, and decide they’re going to go on a trip together in episode 5, but they do nothing with that. Episode 6 is a useless fuckin’ flashback episode about shit we already knew to lead into the seventh episode where Kazuhito decides to preemptively reject himself for Natsukawa's benefit, who suddenly can't open his fuckin’ mouth. Into stupid forced separation nonsense for a whole fuckin’ episode and then Japanese track star run for no reason, don't link up with each other, and then pick up episode 8 not dealing with the failed Japanese track star BL run. And we end on this perfunctory note where they wanna suddenly get us back on track in the finale.

Gone on an extensive ramble there. I apologize for you having to edit that, NiNi.

NiNi

I was just lettin’ you cook, fam.

Ben

I would like for you to unpack your experience coming behind us and catching up with our disappointment.

NiNi

As usual, when it comes to the shorter BLs, I like to binge, so I started Living With Him loving everything about it, loving the emotional core of what it is. One of the big things that really got to me is that they do, throughout the show, have flashbacks to their childhood, and there's a lot of good The Knowing content in there. I was just like, “Oh yes, this is so good. He's been feeling this way for such a long time. We're gonna delve into that. It's gonna be so good. It's gonna be so emotional.” [sigh]

And then they don't really do anything with that. For five episodes, the show had me. Kazuhito is teasing Ryota, saying-not-saying the thing. Ryota basically figures it out with the help of Kazuhito’s friends. He's now starting to think, “Okay, well, what is this?” To have a conversation about it. And then you're getting into episode 4 and episode 5, where they’re turning these things around in their heads, and then the last thing that happens in episode 5 that I really responded to, they have like a physical movement where he tells Kazuhito “You can hug me,” basically. And that moment was so heavy. It was so good. And I'm looking forward to having the outgrowth of that moment. And instead we get a fuckin’ flashback. [laughs] And then we get weird sort of casual-homophobia-not-homophobia from Kazuhito's mother.

Ben

Worse, we got compulsory heterosexuality.

NiNi

And then it's like that didn't happen in the end like, okay, that's a digression that we went on. We don't know why we did that. We're going back to the main story now. But now I've lost the emotional thread. They're doing all this stuff and it's cute or whatever, they decided they're going to be together, great, but it's not landing anymore. They've lost me. They've broken the tension. They've broken the emotional thread. I don't feel it anymore.

Okay. So, Ben and I have both talked a lot. Twig you step in here. What are your thoughts about this? How did you feel that the show went wrong? What did you think the show did well?

Ben

Walk us through your process, Twig.

Twig

It’s so, so bad. [laughs]

Ben

Walk us through it, bestie.

Twig

All right. Okay. I was so invested in these two. We start with Natsukawa and the show sets up so well that he's excited to be on his own, and he's unsure about his childhood friend Kazuhito being there. Kazuhito is immediately weird in ways that throw Natsukawa off, and which the audience, or at least the gay audience, immediately clock as, “Oh, this man is gay and catty about it.” NiNi, you called it teasing. Oh, it’s more than that. I was having so much fun with Kazuhito and the way he was like, “Mmm. I wonder what it could be. Why would girls always be unhappy with me as their boyfriend? I wonder.” This man. [laughs]

NiNi

It was so good. He was basically like, “I am trying to tell you in every way possible that I am A) gay and B) into you, and you are just not picking this up, sir.”

Twig

And he was mean about it in a way that wasn't mean mean, but when they go on their adorable not-date, which was some of the best domesticity we've had in a while, Kazuhito says to Natsukawa, “It's all right, you wouldn't get it.” The way he was just calling him out for being obliviously heteronormative without actually calling him out, it was beautiful. And the best part about that was he was wrong. Natsukawa did figure it out, and so Kazuhito being so sure that Natsukawa was too straight to get it, actually blew up in his face in a way that I loved.

The way that they were so honest with each other and the way that they cared about their relationship, this is one of the things that this show does really right about friends to lovers. Even though they're a little bit unsure with each other cause they haven't talked in a while, they still really care about this relationship between the two of them, and they don't wanna fuck that up. But rather than not fuck it up by holding it all in, they actually talk to each other about it ‘cause both of these men have an understanding that communication is actually important. Both of them say to each other at one point or another, “I think you've misunderstood something that I said. I'm gonna clarify that.” Or, “I said that that was a joke, but I was actually lying about that. I did mean it.” The fact that we got to a place where Kazuhito owned his feelings and said, “Listen, tell me if you're uncomfortable, but I'm happy to just keep things as they are” and Natsukawa immediately empathized with him and said, “Wow, this must have been so hard for you. Is there anything I can do to make this better for you?” That was beautiful. It was such a loving moment, even though it wasn't romantic yet? Their relationship was so good and then the show fucked it up so badly. [laughs]

The other thing I loved about this show, before I move on to why I'm so mad at it, was the way they used the friendship group to establish that Kazuhito had clearly talked about this man before, when he wasn't around, [laugh] to the point where his friends recognize who he was and how important he was to Kazuhito. So they met Natsukawa—they treated him like he was a minor celebrity. Like, “This is Natsukawa?”

NiNi

He reminded me of What Did You Eat Yesterday? When what's-her-name finally meets Kenji.

Twig

Oh yes! Yes.

Ben

I would like for you to note that NiNi is the one who brought up What Did You Eat Yesterday? this time, not me. [Twig and Ben laugh]

NiNi

Duly noted. It's delightful. He doesn't even have to introduce himself. Yoshida is like, “Oh, you must be Natsukawa.” And he's like, “What?” and she's like, “Shhh shh shh shh shhhh. Don't worry about how I know that.”

Twig

Kazuhito gets called away and he's like, “Come on, guys. Let's go there.” And they’re like, “No, we're good. We're gonna stay and talk to this man.” [Twig and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

The gossip is here! Why would you go where you are, this is where the good stuff is.

Twig

[sigh] And then.

00:36:33 - Living With Him: Where it Went Wrong

Ben

And then! Take us in, Twig.

Twig

Okay, so, episode 4 happened, and I did appreciate sitting with the awkwardness after the intensity of those emotional conversations and the uncertainty of what things were gonna be like now. That actually felt true. But the problem was it started to feel slow. This is where I think it started to drag.

Episode 5 was clearly filler. We go camping. Okay, there shoulda been a kiss. I'm still mad about it. What it seemed like they were trying to do with the camping episode was establish some of Natsukawa's insecurities. He wants to seem a little more competent and cool in front of Kazuhito. That already felt a bit weird to me because in their apartment he's the one who cooks, so he already has established himself as someone who does things that Kazuhito can't. He also in the flashbacks, in the earlier episodes to their childhood, was established as the one in Kazuhito's life who didn't see him as perfect. Who liked him as he was and as not perfect. So for him to suddenly be caught up in Kazuhito as a perfect guy didn't feel true to the character we'd gotten to that point?

NiNi

I felt like this episode was really about Natsukawa trying to flirt. I feel like Natsukawa has certain confidences, but the insecurities that Natsukawa is dealing with here are about his romantic potential. It's not that he sees himself as smaller or less, but it's more like when it comes to romance and sex and all those things he doesn't feel as confident in that way.

Twig

I agree with you, which is why it was so weird that so much of the camping thing was about how Natsukawa learned all of these camping things so that he could give Kazuhito a good time and then couldn't get the lighter started and so they had to rely on these girls. It felt like they were focusing on the wrong parts of him that he didn't have confidence in.

NiNi

But if he's trying to flirt with Kazuhito in this way, then maybe it's more like, “I'm trying to flirt and I'm failing at it” kind of thing.

Ben

See and this is where things could have been really interesting. Here is the problem: Natsukawa wanting to take care of Kazuhito as his primary way to respond to their situation made total sense. The only skills he's really developed outside of studying are domestic chores. Being unable to deliver on that front when they went camping was totally reasonable and there was something potentially interesting there, but they don't really deal with that properly. There's this actually kind of satisfying moment at the end where he says plainly, “I want you to rely on me more,” that lands pretty smoothly from where we were in episode 3, where he was like, “You must have been holding this for a long time. How do I help you?” And ending on “rely on me more, dummy,” was absolutely fine.

The big problem for me was episode 6. If the thematic point and the thrust of episode 5 is “rely on me more, dummy” the byproduct and answer to that in episode 6 should have been that man waking up and saying, “I've always relied on you.” But instead, the show backs off from them entirely by having Kazuhito break up in the next episode because they don't know what the fuck else to do. I guess. The natural response to that fucking long-ass flashback telling us that this man has always thought about this man, that he has defined a huge part of his adolescence, was for him to wake up and say it. And he doesn't. This leads to the finale episode where finally he says what he has to say and Kazuhito's like, “This is the happiest moment of my life. Let's dead fish kiss” and I'm like, absolutely not! This man has been horny for 10 years. I need to see that being released now.

The thing about me with this is, like—Shan and I joke about this. We are real haters. But like a big part about being a hater is being a lover! You love these shows. You love what they do really well, and where they fuck up is so obvious sometimes. The obvious fuck up of this show is Ryota saying clearly “rely on me more” and then Natsukawa not talking to him for basically two episodes after that, the end of episode 5 is a very clear request from one of our romantic leads to the other that the other romantic lead does not respond to. The guy who has been in love with this man the whole fucking time receives a direct request from him. The guy who was apparently the reason why he was able to get his fucking life back together, and he does not respond to that clear stated request, and because he can't respond to that, it shuts down Natsukawa's arc for the rest of the show about who is he beyond caring for other people. It's so deeply unsatisfying.

NiNi

Twig, in terms of where it breaks down for you, is that similar to where Ben's talking about or do you have a different place where things start to break down?

Twig

Episode 6 is definitely the waste of an entire episode, just illustrating things that they'd already told us through conversation. Show, not tell, but there's no point in showing us what you already told us. That's a waste of time. Natsukawa, his arc got completely fucked up by all of the wasted space in this show. That's why it feels so confusing and unsatisfying, because the order of what he goes through internally no longer makes any sense.

What we see him do in this show is he starts confused, uncertain about what's going on with Kazuhito. He has a realization about what's going on with Kazuhito, and they have the conversation about it. He has time to reflect on it and think about what his feelings are. He accepts his feelings. We see him realize that he likes Kazuhito, he wants to be with him. Then we see him hesitate about that, “Because I like you, it's actually really hard to tell you,” which is not how they've been communicating to date, but okay. And then he goes from that to concern about homophobia, which makes no sense to have as a thing to happen after you've already gone through acceptance and hesitation. And then it gets resolved. It was a confusing clusterfuck because it didn't make any sense, and the only reason why his arc happens that way is because they had those two filler episodes of his acceptance and hesitation in the middle that weren't in the manga. I did read it to figure out what the hell went wrong.

Ben

Twig, walk us through the experience you had reading the manga to get some clarity.

Twig

A lot of the things that I thought didn't necessarily work or I was confused by in the show, worked perfectly in the manga because of the order in which they happen and the lack of space between them. Natsukawa’s arc in the manga is, he reunites with Kazuhito, is confused by what's going on with Kazuhito, he has a realization and the conversation with Kazuhito about it. He's left to think about it. He immediately goes from that to his concerns about homophobia and then it's resolved.

So all of the moments where he realizes he feels good with Kazuhito, he wants him in his life, he misses him when he's not there, those happen after the concern about homophobia. It made a complete difference. Things that I hated in the show worked perfectly well in the manga because they made sense in terms of an order of events and the emotional arcs that people went through. It was a really good illustration of understanding the overarching arc you're telling and not just the moments, because they kept all of the moments of the manga, they're all in the show, but by moving them around a little bit and adding so much in between them, it completely changed how they landed for the audience.

00:44:40 - Living With Him: Final Thoughts and Ratings

NiNi

The show feels like it wanted to touch on a lot of things, but it also didn't want to touch on a lot of things, so we get some of Natsukawa’s arc regarding the way that he feels about having spent his teenage years looking after his sisters and some of the things that have come out of that. His family is a decently big part of the show. And there's some things there with his mom and how his mom may feel guilty and like she needs to make up for certain things. And then his sisters are still asking him for stuff even after he's moved out. They're still buggin’ him all the time. There's stuff in there that's swirling around, but it never really gets concretized.

And then there's stuff around Kazuhito's mom that again, swirling around and never really gets concretized. And I just feel like the show wanted to do all of these things, but they weren't serious about any of them. And then they spend all this time in the middle, these two entire episodes, pulling in a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with any of this.

Twig

I wanna pick up what you said about the parents. The show spent time with both Kazuhito and Natsukawa’s moms. We Natsukawa’s mom clock immediately that there was something wrong with Natsukawa because he was making something deep fried, which is a sign that her son is going through it. And I thought that was a really beautiful way of showing that his mom understood him. And then we got the conversation with Kazuhito's mom when the comphet happens where Kazuhito's mom asks Natsukawa to let her know if Kazuhito meets anyone so that she can find out about his love life because he never tells her anything.

And then the final episode, we get a moment with both moms where they clearly clock that something's going on with their sons and seem happy about it? And that was so unearned and made me so angry. Natsukawa’s mom at least seemed like she knew her son, but Kazuhito's mom was fully oblivious, and for her to get that moment of, “Oh good. My son is now happy with his boyfriend” to the point where—I took in these yukatas so that they can have this yukata moment—mmm, to bring that back.

Ben

There it is. Sorry, listeners, you won't get to count this show when you list them out.

[all laugh]

Twig

So they get these yukatas taken in so they can have them permanently. And nod to, “I know that you guys are gonna be a thing,” a quiet without having to say it aloud, “I'm cool with your relationship” and she makes an offhand comment that Kazuhito is so much happier now, like he was when he was younger, that indicates that she knows that Natsukawa is making a difference in Kazuhito’s life and she's happy about it.

Where the hell was that energy when she was talking to him before, where did this come from?

Ben

You're right, man. After two episodes of angst in episode 6 and 7, they rushed the shit out of the resolution in episode 8.

Twig

This show had too little material to work with, was too cowardly to add very much at all. The little bit that they did add was not good, so maybe for the best that they [laughs] didn't try to do too much, but they wanted to keep the main beat in the same place, which meant that they shoved a bunch of filler in the middle that fucked up the entire emotional arc and then rushed the ending. They just shat the bed on it. The part that I was actually really interested in—which is, what is this relationship going to look like once it gets off the ground?—we didn't get any of that.

Ben

This show was good for like 30 percent of its run, tolerable for about 62 percent of its run.

NiNi

62 percent, that was so specific.

Ben

It’s what 5 divided by 8 is. [Twig laughs] It's just math.

NiNi

Sir. Sir. Sir!

Ben

Anyway, this is from the same team that brought us Old Fashion Cupcake, so we're trying to understand why the people who have made a five episode banger decided to take what should have been a five episode banger and make it an eight episode fart.

Twig

Talk that talk.

Ben

This show was so vacant. They clearly ran out of the great source material by the end of episode 3 and did not know what to do for the rest of the show. Spending this much time in one character having intense angst over another character not ending in a satisfying release of that tension is extremely disappointing. If Kazuhito was holding these feelings for 10 years, that perfunctory little dead fish kiss was so unsatisfying. I rebuke it.

NiNi

We shall not speak of it.

Twig

The one thing that did keep me going through that last episode were the performances specifically of Sato Ryuga and Sakai Sho. The performances in this show were good and I would like to see them in something else.

Ben

I would very much like them to try again.

NiNi

I absolutely agree, even through all the nonsense I think that the acting was solid and I would like to see these boys do something again. [sigh] I don't wanna talk about this show anymore.

Ben

Let’s rate it!

NiNi

[laughs] Let's rate this sucker.

Ben

It's a 6. It's a 6. It was not exactly offensive, but this show made the egregious sin of being boring. How do you make a Japanese BL boring? That is the reign of Thailand, with its 50 to 100 fuckin’ minute episodes.

[Twig laughs]

NiNi

I'ma let you cook. For now.

Twig

The worst part about it is it's so close to being so good. You can almost fix it just by watching 1-4 and then 8.

NiNi

No.

Ben

No.

NiNi

No.

Ben

No.

NiNi

No.

Ben

No.

Twig

No?

Ben

[laughs] No. Absolutely not.

Twig

Ha! [Twig laughs]

NiNi

I would be right there with you normally, but 8 is not good.

Ben

I love you, Twig. [laugh] I will be back-to-back with you against anyone in this fandom. But I can't be with you on this, sis. Episode 8 fucking sucked because it doesn't complete either character’s actual character arc! Mm-mm.

NiNi

It doesn't pick up on the stuff that was going on up to episode 5, and then it also doesn't pick up on the stuff that they were doing in 6 and 7. So it doesn't follow either of the arcs that they were going with.

Twig

This is my point. You have to cut out all the shit it didn't pick up on [laughs] and then it's fine.

Ben

[laughs] You're gonna make it the five episode BL it should have been.

Twig

That’s what I’m saying!

NiNi

No. I'm sorry, even if you wanted to do that, I'm sorry, those lame ass kisses at the end? Forget about it.

Ben

NiNi! Rating.

NiNi

It was a 7 until this conversation, now it's a 6.

Ben

Twig-tea!

Twig

Yeah, I'm with you all, it’s a 6.

Ben

It's a 6 from The Conversation.

00:52:03 - Why The Queerness Matters

Ben

Both of these shows got less than a 7 from The Conversation, and the conversation about them is different. Love is Better the Second Time Around was actually so fucking good for the bulk of its run and then clearly jettisoned to go be something else instead. With Living With Him, it's very clear that they didn't know what to do with the amount of runtime they had. You can see this show falling apart in real time. This show was not it and it should have been. The potential was sky high and the show really let me down. It went from being a 10 to a 6. That is a terrifying fall. I don't think I've ever had such a turn with a show in my experience in BL.

NiNi

So, the thing about these two shows, why we ended up placing them together, aside from the fact that they started strong and flopped. The flop happened for both of these shows in trying to go for a flashback. Trying to go to time prior to the show to tell us… what, exactly? And I think that's the thing that really I'm taking away from this. If you're gonna do a flashback in a story, the flashback has to give you something, it has to mean something, it has to illuminate something. And for both of these shows, I do not feel illuminated by the flashback. I didn't feel like the flashback gave me either new information narratively or new information thematically and emotionally. I just feel like the flashbacks were there because they wanted to flash back to a different time for whatever reason, but there's no real reason in either of these stories for the flashback to exist.

Ben

It's because they're making the mistake of not recognizing what western M/M romance understands, that if you're going to break the characters up in a meaningful way, do it at the 60% mark.

Twig

I want to pick up what NiNi said, too. The flashback has to accomplish something and we should learn something from it, but also the character should have learned something since, and it should set us up for them to move their arcs forward in a way that makes sense from what we had before the flashback.

NiNi

Absolutely, yes.

Twig

In both of these cases, the flashback did not fill in the information to allow us to follow that character arc in any way that was meaningful or satisfying.

Ben

I'm not always keen on flashbacks in romance. I gotta be honest. The problem with romance flashbacks a lot of the time is, unless you're contextualizing something that the audience has picked up on the whole time, you're just retconning your show.

Twig

Yeah, I agree. For the most part. I think sometimes shows seem like their goal is to trick the audience and that most of the time should not be your goal except in very specific genre circumstances. Most of the time, your audience should be able to at least anticipate sort of what's coming-ish and be excited about it. The how and the why is the part that's interesting, not the, “Oh, you did something that you didn't tell me you were doing for the last however many hours of my life.” It shouldn't be a surprise.

NiNi

For me, that's not entirely it. I have enjoyed before a midstream flashback that tells me something brand new that I have to go back to the beginning and be like, “Oh a twist!” Like, I've enjoyed a twist flashback before. It's not even a question of that. It's a question of, the flashback has to have a purpose. It has to have a reason, it has to give me something, sooomething that I did not already know. Like I said, whether that's narrative, whether that's thematic or emotional, but it has to illuminate something new for me. It has to have a reason for being there. And I just feel in both of these cases the flashback had no reason for being there.

That said, I have enjoyed this episode. For many reasons.

Ben

It's because we dunked on Japan. That's it. [NiNi laughs] That's it.

NiNi

You can't even let me have the fun of saying it.

Ben

No, no, no. You don't get to have it. ‘Cause I love Japanese BL. This dunking is me trying to grab them by the shoulders, like James T Kirk grabbing people by the shoulders, and being like, “What are you doing? I need you to get it together. [laughs]

NiNi

I am enjoying this episode because sometimes I do feel sort of alone in my little “Eh, I'm not entirely feeling it” bubble on some of these Japanese shows, so it's nice to have company for a change, is what I was saying. I was not trying to shade you.

Ben

Here's the thing, let's unpack this. Japanese BL works for me the most often because their romance stories often track for something very specifically queer about them. All the Japanese BL that I constantly bring up on this show has romantic angst that also taps into my very specific concern as a queer critic. And that's particularly why I get frustrated when these shows fuck it up.

As Twig pointed out, Living With Him introduces a compulsory heterosexuality moment after the character has made the big emotional turn and recognized that he does want to remain close to his friend after he learns an important queer detail about him. That is a huge queer fuck up! The big fuck up with Love is Better the Second Time Around is, these guys went through the task of getting back together and trying to be open with each other and being vulnerable and kind of embarrassing with each other. When the homophobia rears its head again and is gonna separate them, the show does not reward us or the characters for the growth that they've been trying to achieve by letting them have that moment together to become a battle couple.

That's the real problem with it, ‘cause, like, in a normal fucking heterosexual romance, who gives a shit if the straights are gonna stay together? The whole world is going to help them stay together if they want to, or let them divorce if they don't. We're the only ones who're going to give a shit about each other when the boots come marching again. And so when I'm watching BL, I'm watching from the queer part, and when these shows fuck up on the queer part is when I turn against them so aggressively. That's why you’ve seen Japan not even catch strays this time. I'm sniping at them for these shows because this is not correct. [NiNi laughs]

This is the true fuck up. This is the crux of my disappointment here. They fucked up on the queer front, not on the romance part. I can take it or leave it on the romance part. Writing romance is not as easy as people think it is. People fuck that shit up all the time. But if you can do something that feels queer in a way that feels truly correct to me, I'll be very forgiving about some romance missteps. But both of these shows fucked up on the queer part of their romance arcs and I do not forgive that.

Twig

After they were doing so well, that's the part that hurts. They started getting the queer part so right and then got it so wrong.

Ben

I truly get you, why you don't always vibe with these shows, NiNi, because they're not always satisfying in that way as romance stories. I totally get you on that. But what always works for me in the shows that I want to advocate for when we get together is that these shows have a real kernel of queer truth that is worth connecting to and worth advocating for for people who want to engage with queer stories. It's why you and I were able to bond so strongly over I Told Sunset About You, I Promised You the Moon, and Bad Buddy. Those shows are satisfying romantically and also as queer cinema. The shows that we both love the most on here are very good at both of those things. But the queer part of their storytelling is non-negotiable for me in a genre about boys kissing each other.

NiNi

I hear you. I'm with you. This episode is gonna air right at the end of June. I think this is a great way—

Ben

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

NiNi

—for us to—

Ben

Oh yeah.

NiNi

—end Pride month.

Ben

Happy pride, bitches!

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

Because it is important to remember that among everything else, amongst all the love and romance in this genre, that this genre is a queer genre and the queerness matters.

Ben

Any final thoughts you'd like to share with the audience, Twig-tea?

Twig

I don't have anything to add. That was right. Correct! That's what I have to say to that.

NiNi

That is going to wrap us up on Second Rate Second Chance! Twig, thank you so much for being with us.

Twig

Thank you for having me.

NiNi

We will see you guys next time. Until then, we out. Say bye to the people, Twig.

Twig

Dispatch!

Ben

Dispatch!

NiNi

[laughs] Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace.

#ben and nini's conversations #podcast #the conversation #on art #lgbtq #bl series #japanese bl #summer series #summer 2024 #love is better the second time around #living with him #kare no iru seikatsu #koi wo suru nara nidome ga joto

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the-conversation-pod · 4 months

Text

Mixed Nuts, Part 2: Thoughts on Yaoi

And we're back! Japan is churning them out almost faster than we can keep up, so we dedicated a whole grab bag episode to give them the attention they're asking for. Ben, NiNi, Ginny, and Shan talk what's working and what's not in Japanese BL as we discuss Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun, One Room Angel, Perfect Propose, Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro Ka, I Want To See Only You and I Became the Star of a BL Drama.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Grab Bag Part 2: J-BL 00:02:22 - Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun 00:11:29 - One Room Angel 00:18:54 - A Note on MBS Tunku Shower 00:26:01 - Perfect Propose 00:49:27 - Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro ka 01:04:44 - I Want To See Only You 01:10:55 - I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama 01:26:16 - Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Grab Bag Part 2: J-BL

Ben

And we're back. Continuing into Grab Bag episode 2, this time we're going to talk about all the Japanese projects.

We are still with pod team members Ginny and Shan. Say hi, Ginny.

Ginny

Hello.

Ben

Say hi, Shan.

Shan

Hi again.

NiNi

We are here to talk about Japanese BL, Japanese drama, all things Japanese, aka Ben's favorite thing, aka Ginny's starting to become favorite thing, aka Shan's actual favorite thing, aka my I'm gettin’ there thing.

Ben

We will be talking about six shows this week. We're talking about Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun, One Room Angel, Perfect Propose, Although I Love You, and You? aka Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka, I Want to See Only You, and I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama.

NiNi, take us in.

00:02:22 - Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun

NiNi

Let's start with Sahara-sensei, which I did not watch. So, Ben or Shan, who wants to complain about this?

Ben

Well, there's no need for you to watch it, bestie, because it was horrible!

Shan

Horrible!

Ben

Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun is a Japanese BL from MBS through Drama Shower about a juvenile delinquent who falls for a new teacher who seems to pay attention to him, and starts to reform his behaviors as a result of this relationship. But the teacher’s got his own baggage, and then the show makes a goddamn mess of all of this. And we have very many gripes to voice!

[exhales] It was not good. Ginny, did you watch this show?

Ginny

I did.

Ben

I feel like you were less pissed than me and Shan. Is that true?

Ginny

I'm usually less pissed than you and Shan.

Shan

I think it's just a natural state—[NiNi laughs]

NiNi

I don't think anybody could be as pissed as Shan. [Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

Right!

Ginny

Scaling for our norms, I think I was about as pissed. I really did not like the show.

Ben

Oh, yes! Go for it, Ginny! Tell it! Kill ‘em. Kill ‘em, bestie!

Ginny

I don't know anything about the source material, but it felt like it was trying to set up two taboo relationships: one teacher student, and one side ship that was sort of step-siblings. And then it completely whiffed both of those and decided, bizarrely, to deal with the taboo nature, particularly the main relationship, as if it simply isn't a taboo.

No one cared! No one cared that this teacher and student were having a romance. It was simply not addressed, or didn't seem to be a concern to anybody. It made the show baffling to follow because it was like they lived in this alternate universe where that doesn't matter, but other things like homophobia do matter—but only sometimes. It was not coherent.

I really enjoyed Toki, the juvenile delinquent. He was delightful. His actor was really fun, and that's really what kept me watching the show for however many episodes it was—six, eight, ten? Eight. That's what kept me watching the show for eight episodes, even though by about the midpoint, it really felt like it was not doing or saying anything interesting.

Ben

Shan, go in and let have.

Shan

Okay, I will! This show is fucking infuriating. I am still so mad every time I think about it.

Ben

[laughs] I can hear it in her voice.

Shan

Ugh! Here's the thing with the teacher student trope: it can be done well. It has been done well. The way that you do this trope well is that you take that relationship seriously. You have to care in the story that there is a power dynamic here, that a teacher has a role to play and a job to do with regard to their students, that they are an adult who is meant to be trusted to guide their students to good life choices, to their own social/emotional wellbeing, to care about their futures, to care about their education. This show just utterly, utterly failed on that front, and it makes the teacher character here completely irredeemable and unbelievable as an education professional. At no point did this show take its own concept seriously. It wanted us to engage with this romance as if this was just a normal teen love story between a teenage boy and a slightly older boy. There was no reckoning with the fact that this was his teacher.

The biggest sin, among many, was that we were shown through the story that Toki was not actually helped by this relationship with Sahara-sensei. We were shown that Toki—because of his feelings for his teacher, and because of his desire to impress this prospective love interest—that he made choices that were harmful to him. That he did not seek help when he was being bullied. That he did not take his education and his assignment seriously because he was too focused on this crush. We began the show with the notion that he was a juvenile delinquent who needed support and mentorship. He's a good kid, a nice kid, a kind kid, and he just needed some guidance. But he didn't get any fucking guidance from this teacher.

Instead, what he got was a distraction and an extraordinarily self-centered adult who really only cared about what he was getting—the confidence boost that he was getting—out of this relationship with his student. Did not look out for this kid, did not help him focus on his studies, did not help him prepare for his future, and did not help him in any meaningful way with the problems that he was experiencing at school.

This show literally ended with Toki [volume increases] graduating, walking out of the school building, spotting Sahara, and chucking his diploma into the fucking bushes so that he could run and kiss his boyfriend, because school's over now and he doesn't have to care about appearances anymore. I actually could not fucking believe that. And the wildest part of all of this is that the show doesn't seem to have any awareness about it. This is not a narrative about a student getting so obsessed with a teacher that he loses his way. This is just being presented as a straightforward, happy and positive romance that we're supposed to root for. It is one of the most baffling things I have ever fucking seen.

NiNi

Tell ‘em why you mad, son! Tell ‘em why you mad! [laughs]

Ben

Bestie, everything you said was true and correct. I will add further that this show does not get the benefit of the doubt of being BL to cop out about a lot of this because of the backstory they give on Sahara and Nekoto—his junior in high school, now fellow teacher. The failure of their relationship is grounded in the realities of homophobia and taboo, so there's no way to approach the Sahara-Toki relationship under the guise of “any m/m attraction is fine because BL,” because the show draws attention to the social and political realities of queerness.

And it's especially frustrating because Sahara actually gives decent guidance to another student: the Todo character, who is playing injured as a basketball player. Sahara talks him down from going into a match that he shouldn't because he's hurt in a way that I thought was really excellent from an educator, because he doesn't tell the kid, “You shouldn't play.” He asked the kid pointed questions, making the kid self-introspect and recognize for himself that he should not play. Which only exacerbates the issues that Shan eloquently highlighted just now about how fucked up this whole thing is, because he does not bring that same awareness to the relationship he has with Toki. It is such a weird experience with this show and I really hated it.

Ginny

I think that about covers it. It just feels like it didn't know what it was trying to do, and it did everything badly.

NiNi

I think that's an excellent tagline. [Ben laughs] So, those of you who watched it, it's time to rate.

Shan, you first.

Shan

I gave it a 3, and I think reflecting in this moment, I want to lower it to a 2. I'm giving it a 2.

Ben

I agree. Go ahead. Ginny?

Ginny

Oh man, so I give it a 6.5. [Ben hmms] I simply don't finish shows that I'm gonna rate lower than a 4 or a 5. On the surface level, there were moments that I really enjoyed about this. As I said, I did like the performance of the Toki character in particular, so I gave it some credit for that.

Ben

I agree with Shan. I originally gave this show a 4. I'm lowering it to a 3. [Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

Let's talk about it again in a couple of months, see where we land.

Ben

I'm giving the show a 3.5 from The Conversation. That is not how the math works, but that's what I'm giving it.

Shan

Feels right.

00:11:29 - One Room Angel

NiNi

Moving on to our next show, let's talk One Room Angel.

Ben, what is One Room Angel about?

Ben

One Room Angel is a story about a depressed man who ends up hanging out with an angel for a few weeks, it feels like, and starts to maybe come out of his depressive spiral as a result, which ends up with some really sad over- and undertones from what we learn about the angel character.

This is a kind of difficult show to talk about from a BL perspective, because I don't really think it's a BL. This wasn't really a romance. From my understanding, the angel character is significantly younger in the source material, and I get why they maybe chose not to go that direction. Shan had more complex thoughts, I think, than I did about the genre assignment of this show.

Shan

I like this show. I just want to say that upfront, I think it's a really beautiful show, a really thought-provoking show. I think it has some really interesting things to say about depression and self worth and finding meaning and life and the will to live. I liked all of its themes. I liked the characters.

I do think that it feels incomplete as a narrative, and it feels like there was supposed to be a romance arc here that got removed. I don't know if that's true, I haven't read the source material, but that's kind of how it felt upon watching it. I don't think it's a BL. There's no romance here. There's what feels more like a platonic friendship to me between Koki and the Angel.

This show has some of the most beautiful cinematography that we've seen in Drama Shower. Some of the visual imagery is really striking, and I still think about it off and on. I like the way that they constructed Koki as this character who is kind of downtrodden, but kind at his core. He's just been through some shit, he's had a hard life. And I like that, I like that he was someone who was very easy to sympathize with. The Angel was a good foil for him. He would come at him in ways that would provoke him and give him some spark, make him feel a little bit alive again, which was what was missing and what was so important.

I think the show wasn't that strong on unpacking the mystery of the Angel and who he had been in his life, and connecting that back to Koki. I think there were a few different threads here and they didn't all come together seamlessly, but I did really like the core story of healing.

I do have feelings about this tendency we're seeing recently in the MBS Drama Shower shows of sprinkling in some non-BLs in the lineup. This is a dedicated time slot that is explicitly meant to be for BL shows, and there have been a couple now in the lineup that don't really fit that bill, and so I do kind of regret that we got this show as part of the Drama Shower lineup instead of another BL. But I'm glad we got the show. I like it a lot. I think it has some good things to offer.

Ben

Ginny, were you able to watch this show?

Ginny

I was! In the interest of precision, because we're talking about it not being a romance, which I do kind of agree with. They do have a conversation about being boyfriends, and they have this cute little beach date and stuff, but it feels like something that's sort of tacked on to make it fit in the BL space. It doesn't feel like it's actually part of their story. The connection that grows between them is, but the romance was not really played out. So even though they kind of give it lip service, it doesn't feel like it's there, which is why we're all saying it's not a romance. I think my favorite thing about the show was the Koki character.

Ben

This is Ginny's favorite character type: the hot mess. [Ginny and Shan laugh]

Ginny

I love a hot mess. I do. He's older, which I also like. He's not especially pretty, which is a nice change of pace. And he's just so down in it and can't seem to get himself out. I do like the story of him sort of getting forced roommate Angel therapy, basically. So yeah, I enjoyed it. I didn't deeply love it.

For the themes that it was getting into, it could have gone deeper. It's got some really dark material in both of the characters' backstories, and it didn't feel to me like it really followed through strongly enough on the resolutions to those things. But it also wasn't a total miss.

Ben

I ended up feeling really complicated about this show. I feel like I was very unfairly comparing it to Eternal Yesterday a lot, and because it wasn't BL I was a little bit frustrated that this time slot was going into non-BL content. Like, it feels like the original thing was BL, and they decided in their adaptation not to lean into the potential romance between an adult and a high school student. A totally fine adaptation choice, but it's like, why adapt this work then? It doesn't exactly work for me as a result.

I really liked the Angel character. I liked how sassy he was, and pushy he was about stuff. Nishimura Takuya; loved the way he played the Angel character. I really liked the aesthetic with his all-white outfit the whole time. I really liked the effort that the costuming department put into his wings. That was not easy, particularly on the budget that Drama Shower was clearly working on. I thought they got a lot of good work out of the animatronics of his wings. I really wish we had gotten more about Koki's yakuza based trauma. There's an allusion to this with the brother that feels a bit incomplete for me. Or the stuff with his mom, Arisa.

There's like a weird ambiguity with the end of this too, where some of the viewers thought that Koki also died at the end, tragically.

Ginny

What?

Shan

Wait, what? I don't think—he didn't die.

Ben

I didn't think he died, but apparently that was one of the reads.

Shan

Fascinating.

Ginny

Huh.

Shan

That didn't occur to me, but you can't really argue with it in a show that leaves things this unfinished.

Ben

Exactly, and that's why I was a little unsettled by it towards the end, because I'm like, “Well, I can't refute that, but also damn!” [Shan laughs] “Y'all killed this man so they could fuck? Shit!”

Okay. [Ginny laughs]

Shan

[laughs] Oh boy, we better wrap it up there.

Ben

So let's rate this experience. Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it a 7. Not bad for what it was. Not great.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it an 8. I liked some of what it was trying to do, but I don't think it fully got there on all of its storylines or really on its themes.

Ben

I gave it an 8 originally. I think I'm going to downgrade it to a 7.5, so we'll give it a 7.5 from The Conversation.

00:18:54 - A Note on MBS Tunku Shower

Ben

Let's discuss Drama Shower before we move to the other projects. As of this recording, we are almost at the end of My Strawberry Film, the last outing from Drama Shower Season 2, and currently MBS has not renewed the Drama Shower time slot for additional projects. They may renew this in the future, but let's talk on the podcast how we feel about Drama Shower after almost 11 projects, the role this time slot has fulfilled, and our complex reactions to all of the projects.

Ginny

I like that they did so many different kinds of things. Almost none of the Drama Shower shows are favorites of mine. There are a lot that I quite liked, and a few that I could see rewatching, but I do appreciate the commitment to do and try a bunch of different things. I hope that something like it gets renewed or gets put in place because, as we discussed a little bit last time talking about genre, I want to see experimental BL. I want to see different ideas and frameworks being explored, even ones that we hated like Sahara-sensei and Toki-kun. I would rather they make a bag of shows that includes a terrible one than just crank out the same reliable favorites, so. While I don't love most of the individual shows, I feel positively about the project.

Ben

Shan, how are you feeling?

Shan

I'm sad at the prospect that Drama Shower might not continue. It did produce one of my all time favorite BLs—Eternal Yesterday—and while I don't always love the shows, I love that we can rely on a steady progression of shows being released. When one show ends, we know the next is coming very soon. Japanese media can feel uncertain. We often don't find out about shows until right before they air. We often find out about a show, but then find out that it's not accessible to us, and we can't watch it. It's been nice to have kind of a steady, reliable place where we know we could go to find a Japanese BL, and I like how, you know, like Ginny said, how experimental it's been. They're doing a lot of different types of shows, a lot of different tones and styles.

A lot of them have been not my favorites. Maybe, like, mid to bad, but there have been a few real gems in this lineup. Not only Eternal Yesterday, but also shows like Jack o’ Frost and Tokyo in April is… These are shows that stuck with me, that I really enjoyed the watch experience for, and I hope that even if Drama Shower as a dedicated time slot doesn't come back, that MBS will keep churning out these shows and releasing them at a steady clip because I think that they are pretty solid. I really like this format for Japan, where they do these six- to eight-episode shows. These tight contained stories. Have a pretty clear sense of what they want to do most of the time, with some exceptions. And I'd like to see that continue.

We've had this kind of recent boom of Japanese BL. And I don't want that to go away. I want them to keep producing shows and I want to always have a Japanese BL airing, ideally. So yeah, I'm hopeful that if not this exact project, that something will come back, that we will continue to get shows that are interesting and a fun watch.

Ben

I'm also a bit sad that we might be losing Drama Shower because I really like what Azuma Kaoru has talked about with it from the little bits of translation we've gotten. They have a real commitment to BL as a genre and showcasing what BL can be. I like the Drama Shower has had two original projects both times it's run. Jack o’ Frost was original and My Strawberry Film is original, and whether or not we end up deciding that these projects were especially good or not, I actually think it's really healthy for BL as a genre to not be as tied to the developmental format where we basically just raid the closet and see what indie writers have been up to and then quickly adapt their shows. I'm really curious what knowing that you're developing for television right away enables with the storytelling.

So, I'm a little bit bummed that we don't know for sure if Drama Shower is coming back right now, but I've really enjoyed this entire project. My average rating for Drama Shower was just under 8, which feels correct. If you like BL, Drama Shower has been a really fascinating project because it's been so varied. We had some cool stuff that came out of it. I thought Mr. Unlucky had some cool ideas. I loved Eternal Yesterday. Takara-kun and Amagi-kun let me down slightly, but I liked it! Like, I liked almost every single one of these outings—except for fucking Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun.

Shan

They really had to come in and ruin it right at the end, didn't they? [laughs]

Ben

For fuck’s sake. I will miss this if we don't get it back, but I really like what we got from it.

NiNi, any thoughts on Drama Shower from sort of only getting our reactions to it and then being prodded about some of the shows?

NiNi

When you were talking to me about some of the Drama Shower shows, you basically were saying these are Japanese pulps. So I've tried to place them in the BL firmament, for me, according to them being mostly pulps. I've only watched three of the Drama Shower shows. I've watched Jack o’ Frost, I watched Tokyo in April, and I watched My Personal Weatherman. Of those three, Jack o’ Frost is easily my favorite, but the shows that I've watched coming out of Japan that weren’t Drama Shower in the last year or two were actually the ones that I enjoyed overall more. So, while I appreciate the role of Drama Shower, what it has done in giving a dedicated time slot, much like in Thailand GMMTV Frigay was a dedicated time slot to help build some bits of the genre. This is kind of similar.

It's a lab, and I think that the genre needs its labs. I think Drama Shower is a good lab, and I'm sure we're going to get another good lab out of Japan again soon. So, yeah, I think that the project was worthy. I only really watched a little bit of it, but I think I could also see how some of the things that it was working through have already started to percolate a little bit through some of the other stuff that we're getting out of Japan. Specifically out of MBS, but also are some of the other places.

00:26:01 - Perfect Propose

Ben

On to our next show: Perfect Propose.

NiNi

Yes, bring it on! I love this show.

Ben

Shan, would you like to describe Perfect Propose for us?

Shan

Sure. Our protagonist Hiro, who is extremely overworked, exhausted, very stressed out by his soul-sucking corporate job, is found, passed out on the sidewalk, by his childhood friend? Sweetheart? Question mark. I think they see that slightly differently, but a childhood friend named Kai, who has also just come into some personal hardship. Kai decides to move in with Hiro to take care of him and also so he has a place to stay. And the story is primarily about Hiro seeing his way out of this really horrible burnout situation that he finds himself in with Kai’s support.

Ben

Second chance romance is my favorite thing in BL [Shan trills] so I had a great time with this show. One of the things the show really focused on was how fucking horrible Hiro's fucking job was.

Shan

Mmhmm.

NiNi

Listen! Oh my God, it was too real.

Ben

I want to talk about that part first because, while I think we all have mostly positive things to say about Hiro and Kai's relationship, I don't want to downplay that particular portion, because the show cared a lot about. And I know, Ginny, you landed on the uncomfortable to slightly put off side of that presentation. It's rare that I see you repulsed when we're watching something. And it was interesting seeing you have a difficult time with that.

Ginny

My issue really was that, as the second half of the show came into play, it became clear that this wasn’t primarily a romance. This was a story about Hiro escaping his soul-sucking corporate job and also being more attentive to his body in the most fundamental sense of, like, his needs as a human being. I felt like I'd been a little bit bait and switched. The setup of the first couple episodes, tt's very much about Kai offering him this physical nurturance, including sexual attention that he was in need of, and possibly their relationship growing. And then it let that be nothing more than a catalyst for Hiro to leave his situation. There was like an episode and a half that were really just fully dedicated to the misery of his job and how and why he was so stuck in it.

I was just like, they're doing this well, but I didn't sign up for it and I'm not enjoying it. [laughs] So that was my experience.

Ben

I respect that. While we're talking about the job stuff, I want to go to NiNi, because I think of all of us, you had the strongest response to the corporate culture stuff.

NiNi

Oh my God, it was like I was seeing myself. So, if you listen to us, you will know that I'm doing this thing where I've restarted my life in my 40s. And the reason that I'm doing it is because I left a job like this. I left a soul-sucking job where I was being gaslit and basically burnt out and destroyed, and so this was almost like a healing drama for me. I would just settle in like, “oh, I'm gonna stab the boss. Oh, he's making him food. I want somebody to make me food. This is so awesome. I'm so glad. Is he gonna get out? I need him to get out. Hell, I need all of them to get out. Why don't they all quit?”

Like, I was having that running commentary in my head while I was watching the show. It was very cathartic for me. I enjoyed everything about it. It was too real. The gaslighting from their boss, especially, was the part that sort of sent me a little bit into a crouch. I was just like, “oh, I'm having flashbacks,” but I needed it. I needed to see Perfect Propose.

It wasn't just an enjoyment for me. It was something I needed to excise from my life and I was able to do it through Perfect Propose. So, it was great for me. The experience was so cathartic. Can't complain about it at all. Fantastic.

Ben

Shan, I remember you having some thoughts because, I don't know that you lived through this sort of stuff directly, but you know colleagues who did.

Shan

Yeah, I'm, I think more on NiNi’s side of the line with this, in that I experienced it as more cathartic and healing. I have been in some toxic workplaces. I've never been in quite the kind of place that Hiro was in in this story like NiNi has. But, I thought it was just a really authentic presentation of that kind of work experience. I thought it was a really genuine representation of the dynamics that can come up in a workplace like that.

One of my favorite things that happened in the show is that Hiro's supervisor left and Hiro became the supervisor, and then he was put in the position of having to drive his team to do the kind of things that he had been driven to do. And he was realizing how limited his options were for breaking that cycle. And I thought that that was just such an important note to include here. It's not the people within the system that are the problem, it's the system itself and it's all reinforcing.

Ben

I was also Hiro in my last job and my team and I, we quit—on my birthday, no less. What an incredible experience. So I started the age of 32 [laughs] unemployed. Which was fun.

I really liked that the show leaned into the work culture aspect of it, that Hiro's previous supervisor was like. “You need to quit, too. Like, I'm leaving. I got a better offer. You are way better than these people allow you to think of yourself as. You should quit, too.” I loved Hiro staying because he thought he needed to insulate his team from that kind of hell. And I love that he failed, spectacularly. Like, he tried to save a younger dev from that and he couldn't.

I really appreciated that they show that there's no amount of effort that overcomes that sort of nonsense. A lot of the times when they do the adult BL, the work part of being an adult feels kind of missing or nebulous. They're mostly using work to recreate the cliquish dynamics of high school to tell those sort of stories, and I really appreciate it that this show, and the next show we're going to talk about actually, don't do that.

I want to refocus now that we've talked about really fucked up, sad work part of this, on the relationship between Kai and Hiro. Part of what locked me in on this show, right away was Kai literally picks passed out Hiro up off the street, takes him back to his house, feeds him some proper food, and then jerks him off so he can go to sleep. Hiro was more than a little overwhelmed by all of this. But that man's skin cleared up the next day.

NiNi

[laughs] He was looking refreshed, restored, rejuvenated.

Ben

We had some complex reactions in our own circle and online about that particular encounter. Ginny, I want to get your commentary on this part because I think you often have the most nuanced appreciation of sexual moments that carry a level of dubious consent. And I wonder if you have any thoughts about that.

Ginny

One thing that you and I have talked about, Ben, is people often put male-female frameworks onto these shows. Which is not to say that consent isn't a problem between men, ‘cause it for sure is. But the way that these dynamics play out and the way that the core relational dynamics between men work is not always comparable and can't always be mapped onto a male-female dynamic.

How I read this scene and how I think it was intended to be read is Hiro can't say, “Oh yes, do this, please,” because he's not in a headspace to accept that this is something that he could want from another man, or really at all. And again, it's really difficult to talk about this without inviting people to map it on all kinds of other situations where it doesn't belong. So please don't do that. But the way this scene is constructed felt very clearly to me like, this is something that Hiro is willing to let happen to him and maybe needs to let happen to him, but is not able to affirmatively say yes to because of where he is in his head, and especially with the way that intimacy develops between the characters later fulfilled the storyline that they set up in that first scene.

NiNi

I feel like this is a place we always land up in with Asian media because of the ways that Asian media portrays and puts forward ideas about what is acceptable sexually, what it is acceptable to want and not want, how it is acceptable to relate in a sexual manner. I feel like these always come up when we're dealing with Asian media. People talk about wanting to change the conversation in Asian media around this kind of stuff, and I fully understand that.

But this story read to me pretty old school yaoi and because of that I got where the headspace of the story was coming from. Like you said, Ginny, this can't be mapped on to everything else. But in this specific story I saw where it was coming from.

Ben

For me, I think I would have been more concerned about their dynamic if not for the morning after conversation in the bathroom. The energy in that scene was Kai being very attentive and almost doing, like, aftercare with Hiro, who was clearly into the dynamic with that whole scene with the hair gel and then him giving him the key so he could stay and then the next episode being like, why has nothing happened since that moment? Which also, like NiNi said, is very old school yaoi.

Shan

Sexual encounters with dubious consent happen a lot in life. It's a thing that happens. I don't need every depiction of it in fiction to be accompanied by someone turning to the camera and saying, “That was dubious consent, and it's bad.” Instead of just letting the context of the story and the characters’ reactions let us know what their headspace was and why it happened.

And I think that the show did that. I think that we understood Hiro and Kai's dynamic well as the show progressed. I think that we saw a pattern develop where Hiro would hope for or want something from Kai, but wouldn't ask for it. And Kai could read him and see what he was going for. I like that Kai got to a point of teasing him about that and pushed him to ask for the things he wants or come right out and say or do something to confirm it. I thought it was quite legible what the show was going for here, so I was not troubled by it. They did a good job of building a believable dynamic for them of Hiro coming to rely on Kai for all kinds of different comforts and as his main source of care and pleasure.

Ben

I think they did a great job conveying that Kai was totally down for Hiro the whole time without it feeling, like, possessive. I particularly enjoyed around—was it episode 5 when they had that kiss on the bench where he's like,”Hirokuni-san, have you made your decision yet?” I thought that was great.

Shan

Pairing that with teasing him with the shots of the delicious dinners he was making at home, that Hiro wasn't making it home to eat. I think the message from Kai always, consistently, was this is all here for you. You just gotta take it. And I like that. That felt adult to me.

Ben

I want to talk about Kai a little bit. We know that Hiro is obviously at the end of his rope when we first see him passed out on the street, people walking past him. We learned fairly quickly that Kai is also kind of at the end of his rope. He's been a neglected, lonely child for a long time, and the only other person who ever seemed to give a shit about him was in the midst of a health crisis, and that guy's son was keeping him away from the dad because he didn't understand their relationship.

NiNi

I really liked, actually, that part of the issue that Kai was having with his boss and his son was that Kai couldn't ask for what he wanted out of the boss. He clearly saw the boss as a father figure and the boss saw him as a son figure, but he couldn't talk about it. It's very Japanese. He couldn't presume and he couldn't put himself in a position where he appeared presumptuous. So he had to take a step back. Be polite. He couldn't say certain things. He couldn't behave in certain ways. This is the situation, I'm going to make myself as small as possible in this situation. And then once it got to the point where he felt like maybe he could have presumed a little more, the son started to understand, “Okay, this is actually sort of a father son dynamic here,” the son backed down immediately. He was just like, “I'm sorry. I didn't understand what you guys were to each other.”

I really liked that. I am often the one who complains about the Japanese non-communication or Japanese communication and how it is frustrating for me, but I thought this was a really good use of it, of Japanese cultural expectations around family and not wanting to be presumptuous about certain things. I really think that it played out really well here. I quite enjoyed that.

Ben

I love the relationship between Kai and the restaurant owner. Few things are more important to a boy than bonding with an older, grumpy man and connecting in the same grumpy way. It's extremely important to your development.

Shan

I like what you said NiNi about Kaiju's inability to communicate what Kenji meant to him and what he was seeking from the relationship, and I like that that was mirrored in Kenji, the restaurant owner, also not being able to say out loud what the deal was, like, why this boy mattered to him. He also kept his mouth shut and didn't explain it to his son, I think for similar reasons. They have a very emotional bond that they both found hard to talk about or justify to other people. I did like that.

I will say, though, that I do think that the Kai side of this show is the weaker element, perhaps of the story. Hiro's narrative was the main narrative, but Kai had a story too, and I do think it didn't get the fullness that Hiro's did, and it was one area where I wanted a little bit more from the show than what we got.

Ginny

This is more to my personal preferences than necessarily show doing right or wrong. I was much more interested in Kai and his situation than in Hiro's situation, so I also would have liked to see more of it. There were a lot of layers to the ways that Kai and Hiro each struggled to take care of themselves or see themselves as deserving care. We did get that fully played through with Hiro and we didn't really get to see Kai’s own dovetailing/mirror image issue of that fully realized and I would have liked to see it.

Ben

Getting back to some of the adult things I really liked in this, I really liked the whole missed opportunity around the festival because Hiro is unable to leave his job and tell him to fuck off. And I really liked Kai, just sort of accepting that disappointment, but getting something kind of interesting out of it by growing the strawberries in the tank they were hoping to use for something else.

I really liked the failure of that moment. Hiro getting mad with himself on Kai's behalf and being frustrated that Kai didn't presume more from him and voicing all of the ways that he kind of was a jerk about the whole festival thing. I think that was one of my favorite moments in the show where Hiro gets mad, but doesn't really have a great outlet for it because he knows he's the one who's at fault. And so Kai's telling him, “It doesn't matter, like, you don't owe me anything,” only frustrated him even more.

NiNi

Yeah, because he wants Kai to expect things of him by that point, and he's not even entirely sure why. But he does want Kai to feel like he has responsibilities towards him.

Ginny

You do see Hiro consistently more upset about other people not getting what they deserve than himself [Shan mmhmms] with Kai in that situation and with his new underlying when he becomes the team lead.

Ben

I'm never getting over that man having a couch that matches the aesthetic of the chairs in his office.

Shan

I clocked that in the first episode and I was so depressed. I was like, no!

[Shan and Ben laugh]

Ben

I remember you pointed it out first.

Shan

I was like y'all, are you seeing these colors? I'm not usually a colors person, either. I don't usually notice that shit. But that was so striking to me that the one pop of color in his entire gray, sad home was that green couch that was the same green as the chairs in his office. Depressing as fuck.

Ben

Before we get to ratings, we gotta do a shout out for Hiori, the junior dev who was clearly a fujoshi who was keyed in right away to watch series.

[all laugh]

Shan

I loved her!

NiNi

She was so ready when they went on the work dinner and she was like, “All right, I'm headed out. I'm going home. Y'all are getting drunk. I'm not sticking around for this, I'm gonna catch the last train” and then Hiro’s drunk and somebody's like, “oh, we're gonna call the guy he's living with.” And she sat back down immediately, like, “He's coming here? I need to see this.”

Shan

Sat her ass right back down and ordered another beer. She was like, “Hell no, I'ma miss that train.”

NiNi

“I'm gonna pay for this Uber ride or this taxi and I'm gonna like it.”

Ben

I loved her. She was like, “Oh, shit, Am I gonna get to see him?” And she got everything she wanted. Kai showed up, sweaty.

Shan

Ooo, sweaty from his run. Mmm.

Ben

Glared at Konoko, like, “Don't you ever fucking put your hands on him ever again, I will fucking kill you. And she was, like, “I got everything I needed.”

[Shan laughs]

NiNi

She didn't even go home after that. She's just like, “Well, I need another drink because that was delightful.”

Ben

I do appreciate that we got to see Hiro, quit that job and stop prioritizing it at the end. Like, he woke up, clearly from them having a good session the night before, like “I ain't answering that fucking phone.” And we saw that the other employees have seemingly maybe left their job because they all looked like they were happy in the park. And they ran into Konoko, as well. So, I feel very relieved by the end of this drama.

Shan

I definitely interpret that group picnic at the end as confirmation that they have all left that awful job.

Ben

Particularly because Sakamoto was also there and I'm really glad that he looked okay.

NiNi

Listen, I was so worried about that kid. I was so worried that I stopped in the middle of my binge to ask. “Listen, you'll need to tell me if this kid is okay, because the last time I saw him, he was having a meltdown. And then they sent him home. And then I have not seen him. So y’all need to tell me that he's fine.” And they were like, “Yeah, he's fine” and then I was able to continue the show.

Ben

So, ratings! NiNi.

NiNi

I gave the show a 9.5. I agree with Shan and Ginny that I wanted to see a little bit more of Kai’s side of the story because I think it was actually quite intriguing. I understand that they didn't have a ton of time and they didn't use their time well, but I would have liked to see a bit more of the Kai side of things.

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it an 8.5. I think execution-wise it probably merits a 9, but I did dock it for my own personal enjoyment because it's my rating and I'm allowed.

Ben

Absolutely. Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 9. I agree with basically what NiNi said. I think if they had managed to drive home Kai’s side of the story a little firmer, it would have been a higher score for me. But it's a good show, I really liked it.

Ben

It's not an obvious recommend right away, because then they have to get involved in the discourse and so it’s hard for me to just go, “It's a 10. Go watch it right now!” But I like the show a lot, so I gave it a 9 because there are reasonable knocks on some threads not being fully completed and yaoi considerations around male sex that made me a little bit grumpy to deal with while we were watching this.

It gets a 9 from The Conversation. I liked it a lot, I think it's worth your time.

NiNi

I have to add, whenever I saw Kai’s hands, I kept thinking about the discussion I had with Ben about yaoi hands.

[all laugh]

Ben

He did have yaoi hands.

NiNi

He had massive hands!

Ben

I have started following that actor. His real smile is so fu,n he is worth following on IG.

NiNi

Bestie you know I don't do the socials, but for those of you who do.

Ben

I do. That's what I'm here for.

00:49:27 - Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro Ka

NiNi

Moving on to Although I Love You, And You?—Japanese title Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka. Oh my God I can't believe I got that right the first time around.

Ben

Yeah, good job, bestie.

Shan

Good job, NiNi.

NiNi

I'm not gonna get it right again. So, Ben, what is Sukidoya about?

Ben

Sukidoya is a story about a burgeoning romance between a restaurant owner and a corporate salary man who has recently moved to Osaka from Tokyo. Both of these guys are coming out of failed relationships and find friendship and connection in each other. The restaurant owner already is very aware of his own queerness. Meets this guy and has an instant attraction to him and is determined to follow up on it, but decides that he should probably be a bit more cautious this time, particularly because of some of the cultural differences between Osaka and Tokyo. We get to see them try to sort through what their new potential relationship will look like with the complications that ensue.

This was another show that we had a lot of complicated discussions about while we were watching it. Because you have more consternation than others, Shan, we'll let you go first, and then we'll follow up.

Shan

This is a show that I wanted to like more than I ended up liking. I really loved the main characters in this show. I liked that there was what felt like a very adult setup for the romance. These were two adult men with pasts, with romantic histories who had exes that were present in the story and actually had roles to play. They were coming together across differences, both cultural differences and differences in how they had experienced romance in the past, differences in how they relate, differences in their hobbies and personalities. I was very interested in all of that and I was really excited to get what I thought was going to be a pretty adult narrative about figuring out how to be in a relationship together across those differences.

That's not really what the show ended up being about. There was a lot going on in the narrative here and some of it in the end didn't feel like it justified the amount of story time that it got. Some of it felt like it really derailed the story. There I'm speaking primarily about the insertion of a love triangle into the plot that I don't think ultimately served the story or the characters very well. Sakae’s ex, Mizuki, came into the story around the midpoint and I liked his inclusion initially, ‘cause I liked seeing this mature ex that was in the mix. It's very common for people to still have exes in their lives and we don't see it depicted very often in drama, and so I liked that he was around, that he was coming back into Sakae's orbit, that he was bringing up some issues for him that were maybe throwing a little bit of a wrench in this burgeoning romance that he had with Soga. But then the show really took that much further, turned it into a full blown love triangle, had Mizuki pursuing Sakae again, had him intervening in the romance, getting in the way, dating Sakae again briefly. It was a lot, ultimately, I think too much. It took up a lot of story time. It threw off the trajectory of Sakae and Soga’s relationship development. The pacing of the story felt pretty rushed. It felt like we hadn't really gotten to settle into any kind of relationship with them. Candidly, I am not generally a fan of love triangles. They can be done well and they have been, but this is a romance narrative in which a love triangle was kind of awkwardly inserted to create drama, and that's the kind I really don't like. That was a big negative for me on this show and threw off my investment in the romance.

But it's not a show that I wanna be too negative about. I like a lot of what it did. I did like these characters, this smaller town restaurant owner who's really genuine and straightforward, but maybe not the most socially graceful guy. Being into this nerdy, quiet guy who has nothing in common with him, trying to figure out how to relate to each other, trying to figure out how to communicate across their differences. I really liked those aspects of it. I left the drama wishing that we had gotten a story more focused on that and less on all this random stuff that they were throwing in to create conflict. In the end I was a bit frustrated with the show, but I like a lot of what it was doing and I hope that we'll get more shows like this that focus on adult characters.

Ben

I just learned some fun trivia while doing some research.

Shan

Oh?

Ben

NiNi, the screenwriter of Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka is also the screenwriter on Three Star Bar in Nishi Ogikubo.

NiNi

The DNA is there. I could see it.

Ben

This is also one of the same directors who was on Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun.

NiNi

We shall not speak of it, bestie.

Shan

Don't bring them back into this. [laughs]

Ben

Ginny, of all the shows we're going to talk about tonight, you had, I think, the strongest connection to these particular characters, and I really want to hear your thoughts on them.

Ginny

While I agree that narratively the show did not hold together as strongly as it could, in every scene they were written well, they were acted well, they were consistent, they were who they were. And that, I think, was why I loved the show so much, as it played so well on a scene by scene level. Both of these are, in almost completely opposite superficial ways, men who struggle to advocate for what they want in life. Sakae is extremely a pushover. You see, as soon as his ex walks back into the scene, how difficult it is for him to say no and even earlier, as he and Soga are getting to know each other, it's very easy for him to fall into a rhythm of just doing whatever Sogo wants and enjoys and simply not advocating for himself or his interests at all. So he's this very kind of impulsively outspoken character. He keeps saying things that he doesn't mean to say, but when it comes to actually saying what he wants, he's slow to do that.

On Soga’s side, he's very reserved, and kind of doesn't feel confident enough, I think, in his own desires to advocate for them. Even though he clearly likes and feels very drawn to Sakae, he takes so much of the show trying to figure out exactly what that means and waffling on what to do with that. I really like seeing two characters with the same fundamental issue that expresses itself in such different ways come together and try to build a relationship.

My favorite part in the whole show is after they've started dating, they try to work out this conflict resolution system in such a characteristic way. Sakae knows Soga has been married before, so he says, “What was your ex-wife like? What was your relationship like?” Thinking in his head, “I'm going to become exactly like her, because clearly Soga liked her, so that will work out great and I foresee no problems with this.” And so Soga tells him about their conflict resolution style, which is not Sakae’s style at all, but they try it. They both kind of yes, and each other into doing something that's not gonna work for either of them and they try it for a while and then it falls apart and then they talk it out.

It all felt so real to me as a person who struggles to express and sometimes even to know what I want. I've been in relationships on both sides where that's a major factor and they played it out so beautifully realistically, while still feeling very fun. The show always felt light, even when it was headed into kind of a difficult moment between them. It never let the mood sink too much. I loved seeing that dynamic play out between them and the ways that they tried to work towards each other and often worked harder at making the other person happy than making themselves happy and had to kind of figure out how to do both at the same time.

NiNi

I liked you describing it as them yes, and-ing each other, because that's exactly what that felt like. It felt very improv. I really enjoyed that scene a lot.

Ben

I really liked that we got to see a homo jock trying to date a culture person. That was so fuckin’ funny to me. We don't get to see fitness gays that often, and I had such a great time as a result.

NiNi

It was delightful, and it was more of that city mouse, country mouse thing that they were trying to do, it was so fun. I wish that they had leaned more into the differences between them, more than the external factors.

Of the external factors, I really enjoyed the job one coming up and when it came up in the relationship, and the conflict that that posed. But I think that the ex-boyfriend thing was a bridge too far. I think it was important that we saw the ex-boyfriend to understand certain things about Sakae, but I don't think that they needed to drag that out into him trying to get Sakae back kind of thing.

Ben

I liked Mizuki as a character a lot and I liked them showing Sakae having an intimate, intense relationship with another person. I think on the pragmatic side, from talking about this as a drama, I'm more with Shan in that I don't know that this show set us up for the right expectations and that could be a cultural competency part on our part, because of the thing they were playing with, with the Osaka, Tokyo thing. But I was also hoping to spend more time with these guys as a functional couple perhaps than I think we got? I think it's fine for the show to do what they chose to do with their time, but I think I wanted something from the show it couldn't give us. I also got a little bit frustrated that there was way less food in the back half than there was in the front half because I signed up for a food show.

But, they did give me a great baseball moment, so maybe it’s okay.

Shan

[laughs] They did have a really good baseball scene. I was just gonna yes, and you Ben about the food. The food was a strong presence in the first half of the show. And then it did just kind of disappeared. I wouldn’t really call this a food drama, in the end.

I think one other piece that we kind of discussed live while we were watching that I do think is worth mentioning—not to single this show out, but to talk a little bit about a trend that exists, I think, across dramas—there was a quite a spicy sex scene between Sakae and Mizuki in this show. Far spicier than any scene we ended up getting for Sakae and Soga. Feels like a strange choice that they went to that heat level in a scene with his ex and then kept the heat so low on the current relationship.

One of the reasons I don't like it when dramas do that is because it kind of sends a message that only toxic relationships have hot sex in them, and that when you find your right person when you're truly in love, sex is not that important, or it's not part of the dynamic. And I don't think that's a good message. It's not a sex positive message, certainly—and I don't know or think necessarily that the show intended to do that here—but, it is kind of the effect of that choice that a lot of dramas make to only show hot sex in the context of toxic or old relationships and keep the main couple of a show kind of quote unquote pure. That stuck out to me in this show and nothing that came after that scene hit anywhere close to that heat level. So it did kind of stand out as a weird choice to me.

Ginny

In terms of the general trend, I certainly agree. It is worth noting that that scene was specifically happening in Soga’s imagination, so it wasn't like, “This was how it was.” It's like, “This is how Soga is thinking about Sakae and his ex.” Which in the context of the story gives it a very different meaning. But I do certainly agree with what you're saying about the overall trend in media.

Shan

That's a good point, Ginny. It's a fair one to bring up. I do think, though, if the show is willing to go to that heat level, why are they not willing to go there with the main couple?

NiNi

And we do know that they are having a hot time, because at the end when they make back up Soga’s like, “Look, we know we gotta fuck, okay? So let's just get this relationship shit wrapped up before we do.” And I thought that was delightful.

Ginny

So good!

Shan

It was a very funny line, but it also kinda came out of nowhere, ‘cause we hadn't seen any sexual relationship for them. [laughs]

Ginny

We saw some.

Ben

I get where Shan’s coming from, like, they confirmed that the guys are having sex and they deliver some of the prelude and the aftermath. But it stands out with what they showed with Mizuki. I think minus the Mizuki stuff, we probably don't feel that way.

NiNi

In general, I agree with Shan, yes, but I do agree with Ginny as well that this is really Soga’s imagination. Like really pushing up his fears and anxieties and all that stuff.

Ben

I at least got to make a joke about the need for a robust public transport system [Shan and Ginny laugh], because it's what allows them to be compromised in the end of this. I’m like, “You see that? Robust, fast, frequent high speed rail is the only reason that these gays made it.”

NiNi

Public transport is for the gays, that's the new slogan.

So, ratings, how are we rating this one? Ginny, how about you? What do you think?

Ginny

I gave this one also an 8.5 from the opposite direction of Perfect Propose. I think execution wise it deserves a bit lower, but I enjoyed it so much that I bumped us up to 8.5.

Ben

Shandler?

Shan

I gave it a 7.5 because the execution issues really really bothered me. I think ultimately I really wanted to love it and I was disappointed that I didn't.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

I liked all the Osaka stuff. I liked how homey they made Osaka feel. I liked the female coworker who, having been pushed back, decided to become a full on supporter and get these two guys together. I gave it an 8. I had a good time with it. I think it was well done. I could have done without most of the Mizuki arc, but, I enjoyed it.

Ben

I did like Kanda a lot too, and his friend Kanada [Kaname]? Oh man, I really like the friend support group, but this show didn't come together fully for me. I struggle to really talk about it and give a clear recommendation for it, so it's a 7.5 for me.

Which averages out to a 7.89ish. We'll give it an 8. I think that's fair.

NiNi

I think it's fine for it to get an 8 from The Conversation.

Ben

We liked it. Even though it was not exactly what I think any of us was wanting.

01:04:44 - I Want To See Only You

NiNi

Next up, we're gonna talk the latest entry, actually: I Want to See Only You.

Ben, what is I Want to See Only You about?

Ben

It is about how we all really, really loved Kura Yuki in [laughs] His: I Didn't Mean to Fall in Love, and we needed another show with him.

Shan

Oh, man, you're struggling. You can't even deliver the joke, sir, [laughs] ‘cause it's so ridiculous.

[Ben laughs]

Ben’s just trying to score a point off me right now, but it's not working. [laughs]

Ben

Kimi no Koto Dake Mite Itai, aka I Want to See Only You, is a four episode Japanese BL, partially funded by Hulu—that was kind of interesting—in which two boys in high school go through a friends-to-lovers arc. One of them has been nursing a crush for a long time on his friend, and confesses to his friend, and they deal with the complications that ensue from that in a way that I thought was really gentle and wholesome. This was a very short story, but I enjoyed it a lot.

Because it's not that complicated! They've been childhood friends. One of them reveals that he has stronger feelings than just friendship, and the other guy just begins to process that, and we get this really interesting dynamic where they're figuring out what the changes to their relationship are going to be. There's not any real complicating drama here. It's really just about these guys sorting their shit out.

Shan

Yeah, I mean, this show is just uncomplicated. It is heartwarming. It is cute as fuck. It is two nice boys being kind to each other while they navigate a change in their relationship. It's really as simple as that. Sakura confesses to Yuma. Yuma processes the confession. They have a lovely kiss around the fire pit. It's so straightforward and I loved it. It was just nice to watch something that is gentle and kind and lovely, and that's what it is.

I really like this show. I think it's a great serotonin hit—a quick one. And definitely recommend folks watch it.

Ben

Ginny and Nini, did you have time to watch this show?

Ginny

I did not even know it existed until I saw it on the show notes and I was like, “What's that? Oh, well, I'm already doing another show as my homework.”

NiNi

I watched it. It was very short, very sweet. I came away just with the feeling of having really enjoyed watching something, like being wrapped in a nice warm blanket. Watching these two soft boys have a soft time and then all the kooky characters around them. This is one of the things about this kind of Japanese drama that I enjoy, which is all the kooky side characters.

So you've got the two teachers, you've got the girl who has the crush on—I can't remember which boy she has a crush on—and then the boy who has the crush on her. It's so fun. It's so delightful. The teachers are the second best part of the show. I love the teachers so much.

It's just fun. It's sweet. It doesn't require a lot of you. It's very wholesome. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Ben

I was being really goofy at the beginning of this, but I like Kura Yuki a lot and I'm really glad we got to see him in BL again. I thought he was really good in the His prequel, and I really enjoy getting to see him again.

NiNi

He has really sad eyes, which I actually really enjoyed.

Shan

Yeah, he has a really emotive face, I think. I'm excited to see him keep doing more shows.

Ben

There's really not that much more to say. This is a really quick, really gentle show. If you need a really good mood boost, I recommend it.

Ratings! Shan?

Shan

I gave this a 9. It is straightforward. It is sweet. It's an easy watch. Highly recommended.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

I also give it a 9. It's incredibly straightforward and cute. I enjoyed it. I like that they couldn't quite figure out how to shift their relationship from friends to boyfriends. They were dating and they're like, “Should we be doing, like, other stuff?” But they were just doing the same stuff that they had always done. I found that delightful.

Ben

I gave it a 9.5 for the terrible pasta they made. [Shan and NiNi laugh]

Shan

We forgot to talk about the pasta!

NiNi

The pasta was so bad.

Shan

[still laughing] Those boys really went outside and picked some tomatoes and just tossed them fully, without any chopping, into a pan and stirred them around a lil bit and put them on top of some fucking limp noodles and called that spaghetti.

Ben

Zero notes. [laughs]

NiNi

The pasta was still semi-crunchy. It was delightful. It was so high school. It was the most high school thing I've ever seen.

Shan

[still laughing] Raw tomatoes and, like, unseasoned noodles? Amazing.

Ben

I really loved it. For your context Ginny, this is when the boys are trying to figure out the shift in their relationship and they make a list of things they wanna do together. Making pasta with the tomatoes they were growing in the school garden was one of those things. And I thought that was a really lovely idea and super romantic. And then because they're a bunch of high school boys who barely know how to cook, they fucked it up badly. But they had a good time together. It was great.

Shan

It was so good.

Ginny

Incredible.

NiNi

Seriously, Ginny, it's a short watch. It's an easy watch. If you're ever in the mood for something to just lift your mood, I suggest watching it.

Ben

So it gets a 9 from The Conversation. It's worth your time. Please go watch it.

01:10:55 - I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama

NiNi

On to the main event, which Ben has literally been waiting to talk about since we recorded the winter series. We're finally going to talk about I Became the Main Role [of] a BL Drama. Ben, you've been basically building up to this moment. Go right ahead.

Ben

I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama is about how these two boys will drown the audience in the BL goodness. [Shan laughs]

NiNi

Oh God.

Ben

It is a BL about making a BL, which is a lot of fun. No shade against Thailand in this, but when they do self-critical BL it's not always the most fun experience because there's a lot of real grievances the people making it need to air—and I completely respect that. But it also can be kind of a downer. When Japan makes fun of BL, they end up seeming to have more fun poking at the nature of the genre and delivering on the comedic beats without it just feeling like a bitch session.

So, in this particular show, we have Aoyanagi Hajime, who is a former child actor who was struggling a bit with his career and trying to figure out how to move forward, and he gets an opportunity to be one of the leads in a BL production against a up-and-coming idol, Akafuji Yuichiro. They are working on a workplace BL and we're mostly on the set of them filming this show. We don't get to see the show itself. I really wish we would get to see the show they made, it looks great.

They're starting to work on the show, and the two guys do not seem to have much chemistry. The reason we learn is because Yuichiro is actually an Aoyanagi Hajime stan, who is internally freaking out the whole time because he's this close to his idol. And they suggest the two guys live together to build up their chemistry. Their relationship gets complicated as they start to develop something between each other, and this complicates their relationship on set as well. But we mostly spend that time unpacking Aoyanagi’s confidence issues.

This was my favorite show. Before I just start gushing about how beautiful I find Akutsu Nichika, Ginny, thoughts on the show?

Ginny

I love this show so much. Just hearing you talk about it, I was feeling little bubbles of delight remembering all of the different scenes and moments and setups. It was just exquisite. It was so fun and so funny. Very comic, but also felt true to these people as people. Love seeing the cheeky BL commentary. Love seeing Abe Alan play this cool, up-and-coming popular idol, who is just smitten with this kind of no-name, famous-for-one-ad guy and just is flailing around, having to try to act BL.

One of the best moments any BL drama will ever give us is him asking Hajime to record that one kinda bitchy line he says for fap material. [Ben and Shan laugh] God, that's the funniest thing that's ever happened to me personally.

Ben

We will not do that scene justice describing it because it's not just about the dialogue of the scenario. It is staged really well. The blocking is a huge part of the joke in that one, because of what other people know or don't know in the background. It's really a great sequence of the show.

NiNi

I loved all of the blocking in that show, all of the stage direction, all the stuff that's happening in the background of all the scenes when they're on set is hilarious. Japanese shows will always reward you for paying attention to what's happening in the background of a scene. And this show, in particular, the background of every scene, is just phenomenal. It is delightful.

Ben

We cruised into the new year watching this show.

Shan

It was both the last show of 2023 and the first show of 2024 for us.

Ben

This show ended, I was like, “We've already decided the winner [laughs] for ‘24. Everybody, pack it up.”

Shan

I love this show. It's a great example of a super high velocity comedy where it's just joke, joke, joke, joke, joke coming at you from all sides in every moment of the show, not just through the dialogue, but through the scenery, through the blocking, through the things that other characters are doing just out of the frame. This thing is just packed, packed, packed with jokes, and so every time you watch it, you will see new stuff that you missed last time. There are so many gags in this, it's just so well done. The command you have to have to deliver comedy in that way with this extremely zippy pacing, in that super-packed content to shove it all into this three hour package. It's just so impressive. It's the kind of precision that most productions can only aspire to.

There was such good visual jokes in this. The reveal that Akafuji had been wearing a fan T-shirt [laughs] underneath his clothes in scenes. There was a fantastic scene with a leg kabedon.

Ben

Hold on, this is fun. Let's go around the group with a gag that we remember until we run out. Shan gave two. NiNi?

NiNi

I mean, I feel like the leg kabedon was a moment, because when I finally watched the show, I literally said, “Did he just do a kabedon with his leg?” and I was instructed [Ginny and Shan laugh] in the ways of Japanese media in that moment.

Shan

Sure did!

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

Him running after Hajime carrying his Hajime standee.

Ben

After he had previously used it as a shield. [laughs]

Ginny

Yeah.

Ben

One of the gags I enjoyed was all Aoyangi mentioning he was called a bad kisser by his ex, and Akafuji just checks out for that moment, like he's not even listening to the rest of the conversation. He just keeps repeating “moto kono,” referring to the ex-girlfriend over and over again because he's spiraling over it. I enjoyed that one a lot.

[all laugh]

NiNi

Speaking of spiraling! Him fighting with the showerhead.

Shan

[Ginny and NiNi laugh] Oh my God! The showerhead! I still don’t understand what he was doing in that scene, but it was so funny.

Ben

It represents his sexual desire almost being out of control.

Shan

Oh, I got that part. [laughs] I just don't understand what the character was doing.

[Ginny laughs]

Ben

Struggling.

NiNi

When he nearly kissed Aoyanagi, then he went outside and basically hung over the balcony railing [laughs]. Just had a meltdown just from being close enough to almost kiss him.

Ben

The spinning scene on the steps where I was like, “He's gonna kill that boy.” [Ginny laughs]

Shan

Yes! When they were like, twirling each other around on a concrete stairway. [Ben laughs]

There were so many good supporting characters in this, too. I really liked the initial pitch scene with the producers who are describing the vision for the show.

Ben

That was fucking fantastic.

NiNi

Oh my God!

Shan

The level of intensity that they were bringing to their description of this super fucking basic office BL. [laughs]

Ben

Our follow[ers] did not understand the way I lost my shit over this show after the first episode. From the “I will drown the audience in the BL goodness” scene, I was like, “This is it, y'all. This is the show.”

Shan

This is the one.

Ben

“Everyone else can go. I'm done. I found what I needed.”

NiNi

So funny, and literally every time she was on screen, whether it was foreground or background, she was killin’ it. I loved her.

Shan

Every performer in this show was so dialed in at all times, whether they were the focus of a scene or not, they were always doing something important and funny in the background. There was also, of course, the great runner with the managers—

Ginny

The managers!

Shan

—who were carrying on a secret romance.

Ben

We saw them interacting like, “Are they exes? Are they together? What's goin’ on?”

Shan

It was clear somethin’ was going on there from the start.

Ben

They know each other, that's for sure.

Ginny

Mmhmm.

NiNi

They definitely know each other.

Ginny

They know each other.

Shan

They know each other. I was very surprised by the spicy reveal we got [laughs] about their relationship.

NiNi

It was kind of spicy, wasn't it? There was choking involved.

Shan

And then also Ryoga, who was brought in to be a co-star in the show. He was, like, a very well known actor/influencer, I think?

Ben

He was a member of a boy band and they were bringing him in for additional crossover appeal. ‘Cause his strong point was his arrogance. [Ginny and Ben laugh] He walks in the room and they're like throwing fucking feathers for him. And then he starts helping them pick it up. “Thanks for throwing the feathers, guys.” [all laugh]

Shan

This drama! Three episodes, it had a small cast, but it did so much with what it had.

Ben

We were only with this show for two hours, but boy was that a great time.

NiNi

It was so much fun. The producer, the look on her face in the background when the two of them were flirting on set and she caught them? [Shan laughs] Her face was slowly lighting up. [laughs]

Ben

She's like—

Shan

So happy.

Ben

—”Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know.” [all laugh]

I love the manager glaring at his own fucking ward. He's like, “Can you read that line again for me?” and he glares at him. [Ben and Ginny laugh]

Shan

Oh man.

Ben

In terms of the BL commentary, that was fun. There's the whole ramp up of you get selected for a role, you don't really know your costar, there's the reading of the material.

One of the things I really enjoyed with this is that they delved into Aoyanagi really struggling with the fact that he was unable to build rapport with his co-star right away. I like actors getting to play actors and stuff. When Aoyanagi was acting as his character, he was actually really good and was really dialed in. It was really cool how quickly he could go in and out of character. I really liked them showing that he's actually good, but he's in his own head about it because he's really sensitive to commentary from fans, and they reinforce how fan behavior has really potentially negative impacts on actors and entertainers with Kuromiya. He gets cornered by a really aggressive fan, and has to be saved by Aoyanagi in that moment.

I actually liked the moment with Tendo, the female supporting character on their cast, when Aoyanagi’s trying to talk to her about what's going on with Akafuji and he's speaking about it hypothetically, and she's like, “If your co-star is trying to make out with you off set, that's not good.”

Shan

Mmhmm.

Ben

“That's extremely bad.” And he's like, “Wait, but this is a BL story, we're gonna just ride it out for this.” But she's like, “Mmm, no.”

Shan

Aside from how very fucking funny this is, it had some really good messages. The most important thing this show did for me was make it super clear that, in order for the two of them to have a real relationship and have a romance, Akafuji had to let go of being Aoyanagi’s fan. You can't idolize and worship a person if you want a relationship with them. You have to process them as a human being, a full human being, and see them fully for who they are, and not keep them on this fannish pedestal. I really like that the show was clear about that. Being a fan, being a stan of somebody, is not the same thing as loving them.

Ben

It was really surprising as well that the show allowed there to be the commentary about the network, late in production, interfering—getting cold feet about something. The guys had a lot of consternation about whether or not they'd be able to deliver a proper kiss for the intimacy, and then the powers that be pulled the kiss, and you get the sense immediately from the producers that that wasn't their choice, that people with money above them made that decision and they had to just deliver the party line and just accept it.

Shan

That probably brings us to our one real criticism of this show, yeah?

Ben

The reason why the show did not get a 10. [laughs]

Shan

Damn it, we wanted it to get a 10!

Ben

I get what they were going for. They reserved that moment for them. But I'm looking at you TV Asahi.

Shan

Because, they did not deliver a kiss.

Ben

They didn't.

Shan

They did not deliver a kiss in this show. [laughs]

Ben

It’s the only knock.

Shan

They teased a kiss continuously. They showed them about to kiss multiple times before cutting the camera away.

Ben

We got sad kissing in episode 2.

Shan

They implied that they might have been kissing as practice off camera, that we didn't see. And then they ended the show—similarly to Cherry Magic—with the camera zooming in on them, about to kiss, and then a cut to black. It was unsatisfying all around.

It's the one real ding on the show. The first time they did the fake out, we were like, “Oh no, show. Please don't do this. We want to love you unreservedly. Please just deliver the kiss.”

Ben

That's the real sadness of our two grab bags. We did not get a NiNi “I love this unreservedly” and we talked about like 10 shows. [Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi

Everything's got a little ding to it right now, but we'll get that again, I believe.

Ben

[laughs] But genuinely I love this. I really like that for the little time we spent with them, all the characters felt really human to me in a way that was really accessible. And even though they were mostly broad strokes in all of these characters, I got a lot out of it. It was really, truly one of my favorite BL experiences I've had in a long time.

NiNi

I'm gonna give it a 9.75.

Ben

Oh, my God, here she goes.

Shan

[laughs] She’s cheating! That’s just cheating—

Ginny

Cheating!

Shan

—so you can be the most generous.

NiNi

It's not cheating. It is producer privilege. Get it right. [Ginny and Shan laugh]

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it a 9.5. Would have been a 10 if they'd given us the kiss, but a truly delightful and worthwhile show.

Shan

Same. 9.5 for same reason.

Ben

I gave it a 9.5 for the same thing. It's a 9.5 from The Conversation.

Shan

But let the record state that NiNi is the most generous. [laughs]

Ben

Truly, we love this. This is one of our favorites. Go watch it right now.

Ginny

I have to rewatch it ‘cause I don't even remember my favorite gags.

Ben

Exactly. You gotta go watch again and get your gags back.

01:26:16 - Outro

NiNi

And with that, we have come to the end of our Japanese Grab Bag. So, what are we thinking about Japanese BL having just run down six of them in a row? Ginny, you go first.

Ginny

Last time I answered this question I was kind of feeling like Japanese BL can do no wrong, and now I feel like, well it can, and has. There have been several less than perfect shows. Still feeling very positive overall. Loving so far—knock wood—some of what's currently airing.

The beautiful density of storytelling that Japanese BL tends to deliver in such a short time, it almost never feels hollow or incomplete. It feels very rich and detailed, and I continue to love and appreciate that.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I am just living right now. What a time to be alive. Japanese BL coming at us, all the time, consistently. It didn't used to be like this. We used to go long stretches with nothing coming out from Japan. No clue what was gonna come next. And now it’s like, we've got these consistently airing shows, we've got shows that are showing up as a surprise alongside that. I think at one point we had six different Japanese QLs airing simultaneously. That's just an unheard of bounty of Japanese QL content, and I am so happy about it. I hope it continues.

With volume, of course, comes some shows that are not gonna hit as well as the cream of the crop, but I still love the experience of watching all of them, I love getting to dig into this much Japanese content. I'm just so happy and I hope it continues.

Ben

I can't believe we got to talk about nine Japanese projects in a single season of this show. That's ridiculous.

Shan

Wow, right?

Ben

I am having a great time, and I'm actually glad some of these shows were flops or duds. As much as I really like Japanese BL, I'm glad that there was a show that I got to genuinely hate in this run [laughs] so that NiNi could see that I'm capable of hating a Japanese project with my whole heart.

NiNi

I did actually need to see that. That is true.

Ben

I'm havin’ a great time. It's really refreshing that so many different networks were involved. We had shows from about five or six different networks, and even if it feels like we're getting a slowdown in spring, I am very glad that we have more projects on the way. There's at least two more Japanese projects on the horizon, so. I'm in a really good place.

NiNi

There's some stuff in there, I think, that we're going to talk about in the Lagniappe about where things seem to be going next season, but for now, that's going to be it from us.

We out. Say bye to the people, everybody, this time in actual chorus: 1, 2, 3.

Ben

Peace.

Shan

Bye.

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Oh my God. Y'all are terrible at this.

[Ginny and Shan laugh]