#it's also biphobic and transphobic but bi lesbians always are

[flowergirlmiwa]

promotion of the validity of bi/mspec lesbians is literally just 'progressive' lesbophobia and erasure

[antlered-angel]

Friendly Reminder that Bi Lesbian is inherently biphobic, transphobic, lesbophobic, and acephobic

Reminder: i am speaking as a trans and biromantic person on the ace spectrum and i have asked lesbians on the matter. One of my best friends is an asexual lesbian who helped educate me on the matter. I have also done my research and i know what im talking about.

Bi lesbian was a term coined by a terf who didn’t consider trans women real lesbians because of the false idea that they were still men. The same terf also didn’t consider cis lesbians being attracted to trans women to be real lesbians for the same reason.

the label boils bi and lesbian down to just sexual attraction, excluding other types of attraction. Speaking as a demisexual biromantic person, that type of exclusion treats bi people and lesbians as just sexual beings.

Bi people and Lesbians were never and are never consulted on whether or not a label like that could exist or even make sense. Speaking as a bi person with lesbian friends, often times our opinions on the matter are disregarded and invalidated.

Bi Lesbian is inherently self contradictory and actively ignores the definitions of bi (attraction to two or more genders) and lesbian (nonmen being exclusively attraction to nonmen). Once again, bi and lesbian people are actively ignored when this is called out.

Bi Lesbians are often men who are trying to invade spaces not meant for or inviting to them. Lesbians are nonmen exclusively attracted to nonmen, not nonmen occasionally attracted to men. Labels are not always about comfort, they’re often more about safety. And you cannot be comfortable unless you have safety. And this label creates less safety for lesbians and trans people alike.

if you’re going to argue, do your research first and consult the people this negatively affects. Remember that it’s not about you, it’s about making sure groups like lesbians, trans people, bi people, and ace people feel safe enough that they can express who they are without their identities being threatened or completely disregarded for the sake of comfort.

If you’re uncomfortable with the idea of women existing without men, imagine how lesbians feel when their safe spaces are invaded. Have some goddamn compassion with a little sprinkle of empathy, and educate yourself for once.

[posi-pan]

https://www.tumblr.com/toyherb/748434177303658496/geiser-i-know-pansexuality-is-not-just-going-to?source=share

i saw this and do you know if this is true or not? because it made me sad / feel bad because before i came out (i didn't have plans to, at first) i was thinking long and hard on which labels fit me to the point of having sleepless nights because of it and then i found out about pansexuality due to this blog and that made me feel peaceful inside and that's how i figured out that this label fit me.

and now everyone on that post is like: think long and hard on the labels you use!!!! i don't want to exclude anyone. i don't want to erase anyone. this label just fits me. it fit me then, it fits me now. it's as simple as that.

sorry to dump this into your askbox during pride :((((

that post is absolutely not true. i have many posts on here calling out the idea that pan is somehow damaging bisexuality or whatever. pansexuality is not biphobic, individual people are. if someone is saying something biphobic, it’s because of their own flawed thinking or understanding, not because of whatever their sexuality is. funny how many heterosexuals and gay men and lesbians say horribly biphobic things, yet i don’t see any viral posts about how heterosexuality or gayness or lesbianism are biphobic. that logic only applies to pansexuality, i guess. *eye roll* it’s almost like the goal isn't calling out biphobia, the goal is spreading panphobia.

(and let’s not forget that pansexuality and pan people did not create any of these misconceptions about bisexuality that panphobes always talk about. those existed before pan got any kind of mainstream visibility. and don't believe panphobes when they say pan folks “changed the definition of bisexuality” either, as that’s just another panphobic lie.)

you don’t have anything to worry about. the only people doing damage are the people who make and share those kinds of posts telling people they’re queerphobic and hurting the community because they use a different word. pan has always existed and wasn’t created to be biphobic or transphobic and has always been welcome in the bi community. claiming otherwise is what’s wrong and damaging.

and idk when op posted that, but the earliest replies i saw were from 2020, so it’s interesting that people are sharing a years old post where the go-to example of a pan person being biphobic is even older: miley cyrus in 2016 saying she hates the word bisexual for putting her in a box. which. i remember that and pan folks, including myself, were criticizing her word choice. (even though she simply said she doesn’t like that label for her own sexuality and feels it’s too restrictive for her own sexuality and feelings. which isn’t queerphobic ffs. queer people of all kinds feel certain labels are too restrictive or don’t fully encompass their feelings. like. why is it only bad when a pan person says that about bi? i’m so tired of the double standards. also, where are these people when bi celebs are spreading biphobic narratives? they’re awfully silent then.)

please try not to give panphobes like that the time of day. their words have no weight because they’re rooted in hatred and queerphobia. they do a good job of masking their panphobia in supposed sadness about biphobia or concerns about the community (and sometimes wrap their message in faux intellectualism), but all of that rings false when you know where they’re coming from and what their intentions are. pan people are just trying to live our lives as authentically as we can, with language that feels true to us. panphobes on the other hand are actively spending their free time trying to make other queer people feel bad for *check notes* using different words. as if that isn’t the most ridiculous thing in the world.

i hope this helps make you feel better!!! and no worries about sending this during pride!! 💖💖💖

[redtail-lol]

bitch putting 'die now' in the tags automatically disqualifies you from being better than anybody, esp if it's for being an mspec lesbian. You're literally on the same level as homophobes if not worse. If you can't accept that bi and lesbian can't be mutually exclusive because genderfuckery exists then you're misunderstanding queerness entirely.

Oh, and gotta love you pulling the race card. Ain't nothing in this thread had anything to do with race so I don't see a point in you saying anything about white people for any reason other than to look better.

Anyways, stop hating all enbyspec people, stop hating bisexuality that doesn't include men, stop treating lesbian like it's always exclusive when that's literally solely because of TERFs, stop telling queer people to die for being queerer than you, and stop accusing actual lesbians of lesbophobia for realizing that bi and lesbian have overlapping definitions and complex history. You're literally more toxic than Chernobyl. Just interacting with you will probably give me radiation poisoning and I'm surprised you're still alive.

FI HAVE NEVER SEEN YOU BEFORE OTHER THAN THIS 1 TIME WTF DID FI DO TO YOU MAN 😭

[olderthannetfic]

/726901861182996480/ a lot of the Richard Siken response is honestly so homophobic, trying to come up with some sinister reason for why a gay man would be interested in writing or reading sexy fanfic about attractive men in a TV show. There was a viral post going around here by some person with a Stranger Things username (not insinuating that fandom is especially weird or anything, just that I remember this person had one of the characters from that show as their username) that suggested he was a creep or groomer or something because he had not responded well to a teenager basically wanting him to do her homework for her, but “he happily writes fanfic of shows for her age demographic” (or something like that) which is both a truly bizarre description of Supernatural, a show that’s always been aimed at adults even if it also has a fair number of teenage fans, but also is really clearly trying to invoke some sort of Groomer Panic in a time when that’s rising as a form of violent homophobia toward LGBTQ+ people especially those who are AMAB. And it’s just such a bizarre statement: even if we were talking about a drama that was aimed at teenagers, in what ways is it “groomer” for an adult to watch this show (lol, on the website that is full of adults freaking out over kids’ shows) or for that adult to find the adult characters played by adult actors attractive enough to write sexy fanfic about them? It’s just really obviously reaching for an excuse to call a gay man a groomer.

In general, I feel like this website has a serious problem (it’s been the case at the very least since the panic over CMBYN, and before anyone gets pissy, I’m not talking about anyone taking issue with the content of the film itself, but the people making weird insinuations about gay/bi men for liking it or “the gay community” for embracing it or over the bi male novel author’s own sexuality or reasons for writing it, etc.) where a lot of people who are not gay/bi men think it’s okay for them to make weird homophobic assertions about it, and generally not bother to question their homophobic beliefs about gay and bi men, because they themselves are some other kind of LGBTQ+. I’m a cis lesbian and a lot of this particular seems to come from cis lesbians and bi women, often trying to couch it in a general sort of skepticism that women as a marginalized group might have toward men as a privileged group, but then it only ever seems to be directed at men who are also marginalized such as gay/bi men (and also MOC) and specifically for things that are a result of those marginalized identities and that don’t affect women — NOT a situation where a man is using his marginalized identity as an excuse for misogyny or anything like that. Anyway, people need to knock that shit off. Not every person in the LGBTQ+ community has the same experience, and being, say, a cis woman who is queer doesn’t necessarily make you any better of an authority on gay or bi men’s lives than cishet people if you aren’t making an effort to talk to them or read stuff by them or learn about their lives, and certainly doesn’t mean you can’t be homophobic toward them — just like how in turn, queer men can be bigoted toward lesbians and/or bi women. I don’t understand how people can be aware of other kinds of intra-LGBTQ+ bigotry — cis gay or bi people being transphobic, gay people being biphobic, etc. — and not be aware that this is also a thing that can happen from other LGBTQ+ people toward gay men.

And being ANY kind of queer absolutely does not give you a get out of jail free card for buying into and disseminating the moral panics about groomers, “kink at pride,” “drag is problematic and always sexual” etc. which are used by the right wing to hurt all of us. This was bad enough in like 2018 as part of the perennial brain worms people on this website have about Pride (that are because way too many of them don’t leave their houses and actually go to a Pride parade) or when people could plausibly believe that “groomer” was purely about shipping discourse and maybe the occasional actually kind of creepy older adult in fandom spaces who spends a little too much time glomming onto teens specifically. But in 2023 you don’t really have any excuse for not being aware of how those terms have broken containment and are now part of regular right-wing propaganda, and particularly a concerted right-wing campaign to try to re-mainstream homophobia in places where it had become socially taboo. Your discomfort around a real adult gay man just enjoying fanfiction, which does not affect you, is not justified and you need to work through that. Using terms like “groomer” for fucking fandom discourse when it’s come to mean what it does in the broader culture is just completely morally reprehensible. Get a fucking grip

--

[ugly-anarchist]

lesbian literally means non-man attracted to non-men in what world is bi lesbian a valid identity

In this world it's a valid identity! Mostly because "non-man attracted to non-men" isn't the definition of lesbian and is both exclusionary and, weirdly, still inclusive to bisexuals!

Bisexual means you're attracted to two or more genders. There's a lot of genders out there that aren't "man" or male/masculine aligned. By your definition of lesbian you can, in fact, be a non-man who is attracted to multiple non-man gender identities. Which would make someone, ya know, an mspec lesbian.

However, let's say that someone is bigender. This hypothetical person is both a man and a woman and they are exclusively attracted to women. This is, by definition, a woman exclusively attracted to other women. But because they're also a man, they would be excluded from your definition of lesbian.

Also, you are defining lesbianism based solely on the exclusion of men which is, and I can't stress this enough, fucked up and weird. Like, I don't know how to explain it, focusing lesbianism on men instead of attraction to women is kind of weird.

It also implies that non-binary is woman-lite. Like if you're an agender person who is exclusively attracted to other agender people then by your definition that would be lesbianism. Assuming of course the hypothetical agender person is afab and presents femininely. Because, let's be real here, if an amab agender person who presents masculine identified as a lesbian then there would be no question about what you thought about that. That person would immediately be called a male invader and told they weren't welcome.

Lesbian has always meant "gay attraction towards women". There are people alive today that I have personally spoken to who confirm this. My mother is 50, she identified as a lesbian when she was in her early twenties and she has told me stories about what it was like being a queer woman back then. She told me stories about how the community was full of political lesbians (straight women who identified as lesbians as a political statement) who shunned bisexual women and excluded them from the community. That's right, anti-bi lesbianism was started by straight women who identified as lesbians as a fucking political statement. And guess what? These women were also very transphobic and even homophobic towards gay men.

Redefining the word lesbian specifically so you can exclude bisexual women from lesbian spaces is, in fact, biphobic as hell! Bisexual lesbians aren't invaders, predatory, or anything! If you are uncomfortable sharing a space with bisexual lesbians then that's not anyone's problem but your own. There is no danger whatsoever with bisexual people sharing a space with lesbians nor is there an issue with bisexual people identifying as lesbians! Every single argument I've seen as to why it was "dangerous" for bisexual lesbians to exist is complete and utter bullshit and steeped in biphobia with a sprinkling of transphobic dogwhistles!

You are not on the side of good here! You are on the same side as straight women who hate men so much they CHOSE to become lesbians! You are on the side of a community that has solely defined their identities on not liking men which leads to exclusionary behavior towards bisexuals and trans women!

This isn't the hill you want to die on!

[squishsquishy]

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˖⁺‧₊˚₊‧⁺˖ ˖⁺‧₊˚♡˚₊‧⁺˖ ˖⁺‧₊˚₊‧⁺˖

Dia de los Muertos is not “Mexican Halloween”, it’s marketed this way in many chain stores in the U.S. however the only similarity is that it’s a few days apart. (Halloween 10/31 and Dia de los Muertos 11/2) Dia de los Muertos is a time to celebrate those who came before you, those that are no longer with us. We honor them and make sure they are safe in the after life, have energy and know they’re loved. Always. (Dia de los Muertos education) (Halloween history)

I’ve had to relearn Spanish so my Spanish is like kindergarten Spanish. I want to relearn it for my kids so I’m doing my best to build it back up, however I haven’t really worked on much reading or writing

Tags: #my gifs #my stimboards #fam rq 🩷 stim inspo post #squish420

Archived Stim Gifs: #deleted #classic @sensoryarchive

Quick messages:

>> I don’t make gifs of animal breeders or animals that should not be kept as pets in houses. If I reblog this content tell me. I do my best to check.

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DNI (Do Not Interact)

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Homophobic, Transphobic, Queerphobic, Antisemitic, Racist, Xenophobic

abdl, ddlg,cgl, any “age play”

Tcc/true crime fan

Pedos, Anti-Anti, Proship (shipping pedo ships or incest ships)

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if you tell other people what their labels should be. if you tell trans people they HAVE to be pansexual. If you tell cis people in relationships with trans people they HAVE to be pansexual. This is one example, but don’t interact if you tell others what you think they should identify as or who you think they need to be with.

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[violottie]

yes that does help!! thank you </3

i have been repeatedly harassed by people who say that “mspec lesbians” and “lesbian men” are real and who tell me that i am “being transphobic” and “keeping trans people from expressing themselves freely” because i think that those ideals are, at their core, lesbophobic.

it really sucks to be called transphobic and lesbophobic as a trans lesbian. :,) i’m glad that there are still people with a little bit of sense

oh gods, im so sorry youve been bothered by them too, friend.

it can be really overwhelming to have so many of them screaming so loudly, but i assure you that they are a minority. and they only exist on the internet. in real life, everyone knows what a lesbian is. and it will never change

and yes, it is indeed lesbophobic but also transphobic and biphobic for them to claim their contradicting identity is true.

the best piece of advice i got from the incredible group of lesbians im honored to call friends that i met here is this:

to always and immediately block "bi/mspec lesbians" whenever you unfortunately come across them. they are not worth your time or mind or energy ever. they dont want to listen and learn. they want attention. dont give it to them.

focus on finding and cultivating lesbian community and uplifting other lesbians by sharing positivity, learning from and celebrating each other, and being proud to be a lesbian. lesbianism is the single most beautiful experience in the universe, and the lesbian community is full of such vibrancy and diversity and culture and fervour and passion and life. it can be hard in the face of such constant bigotry, especially when it comes from within the wider lgbt "community", but together, we lesbians are the single strongest, most beautiful, most perfect beings in all existance and as a lesbian, so are you

know that on my blog you will be respected for your sexuality and gender completely, anon, as you deserve to be

❤���🧡🤍🩷💖

[redheadbigshoes]

First one is a trans man the second one is a bi woman why am I surprised that they always gotta be the ones speaking over us and we also need to talk about predatory bi women who say they are lesbians but date men this literally pushes the idea that lesbians can like men

Ironic how it seems to be always a non-lesbian trying to speak over lesbians… The same people who complain about lesbians being transphobic or biphobic with them…

That dude talking about getting laid but if he was actually getting laid he wouldn’t be so pressed about including men in lesbianism lol this shit is the kind of shit people who are rejected by lesbians talk about

[utilitycaster]

I’m I the only one who finds it alarming that most of this fandom who ship Imogen and Laudna (especially on twitter) don’t realize the unhealthyness thats going on in their relationship? They literally see two women to are affectionate with each other and say “ENDGAME!” “GIRLFRIENDS!” “MARRIED!” “KISS KISS KISS!” Then they focus on quotes that are kinda alarming, and Imogen’s Jealousy is pretty fucking Alarming! Saying that they are in love and just haven’t realized it yet. (Don’t get me started on that one blog on here counting down the days “till imodna realizes their in love.” I find it so fucking annoying.) Loving someone and being IN love with someone is two different things. Also another thing! I HATE THAT PEOPLE CALL THEM LESBIANS! THE BOTH HAVE EXPRESSED FEELINGS FOR MALE PERSENTING PEOPLE! I dread the day when the campaign ends and they don’t end up together or during the campaign fall IN love with someone that’s not each other. Especially if it’s a male persenting person, because the Laura and Marisha will be harassed and the shippers will yell Queerbait, also the men hating/haters will be in full force. 

Hi anon,

I agree with most of this; I'm answering under a cut in the hopes that people who will be upset by an answer will be able to avoid it, without me having to explicitly discourse tag it and in doing so throw it to people who troll that tag to get mad at things. Also this is SUPER long and covers a lot of the thoughts I've had percolating on the CR fandom/shipping culture in general.

I think I and a lot of people who primarily deal in meta/analysis in this fandom have been inching ever closer to a lot of the points you've made here, and I am generally very willing to be the one who snaps and says "yeah has anyone noticed the emperor has literally no clothes on like what the fuck".

Let's start with the end and work backwards: It's happened before, it will happen again if Laura and Marisha's characters do not get together, and it's irritating, but like, I will take a good story and the consequences of a shitty segment of the fandom rather than the path of least resistance every time. I almost said something to this effect on the positive vibes ask last night, but like...there will always be people who are hateful and stupid on the internet, so you may as well stand in your own truth rather than fear their consequences. (Not that I don't respect the choice to quietly avoid harassment; I am the way I am because I know at this point I can take a pretty hard hit and shut it down, but that has not always been the case.) Anyway, people called an actual canon ship between lesbian characters queerbaiting last campaign, so it's not like those accusations hold any weight or need to be taken seriously; outside of their tiny circle, everyone thinks those people are idiots.

I do, as a bi woman, hate the tendency among hardcore shippers to erase bisexuality. They do it because a bi character's competing ships cannot be as easily dismissed as 'obviously can't happen, they're gay or lesbian', and they don't care how biphobic they look doing it. You are absolutely correct: Imogen and Laudna have both indicated interest in men or masc nb people. (Others have also pointed out that people tend to exclusively use he/him pronouns about Ashton when they are being critical of them, so they don't care how transphobic they look doing it either, apparently; also I don't think Ashton identifies as a he/they lesbian but there are in fact people who do identify as such so like...if your goal is to eliminate Ashton/Laudna as an option by saying Laudna is a lesbian, against all evidence to the contrary, you also need to make a number of presumptions about Ashton's sexuality and gender identity as well.)

This brings me to a tricky section about fandom in general but I think it's worth saying. In the real world, homophobia and transphobia are very real. They negatively impact our lives in heartbreaking and deadly ways. It is still the norm in most US media for the bulk of relationships shown to be between a cis man and a cis woman, and for protagonists to be cis and straight (note: also often able-bodied, male, white, etc but the focus of this discussion is queerness so I'm not covering all axes of oppression). However, in many fandom spaces, queer characters and ships are the fan favorites. Tumblr's userbase does skew heavily queer, and additionally, tends to skew towards women. In other words, a lot of things that are very true in real life do not hold in fandom spaces.

Which is to say: we're in a situation where an F/F ship is the massive juggernaut for the fandom right now. It does not mean that lesbians (or bi women who enter into relationships with other women) are not oppressed in the real world; it does mean that within the highly specific space of the Critical Role fandom, people are more likely to be in favor of this ship than not. It also means that a lot of the people who aren't into it are not homophobes, but are queer people - often even wlw - who are saying "I would like F/F ships! I would like them to actually be good." Like, to me, the only difference between Imogen and Laudna and every M/F canon relationship on network TV that's made me go "you're telling me they should be together, but I don't see it" is that they're both women (and I would bet a large sum that for a lot of people, this isn't about the dynamic, but purely about the gender of the people involved, ie, if Imogen were a man played by one of the men in the cast people wouldn't ship it, where as I personally can comfortably say I'd ship any of the canon ships from past campaigns regardless of character gender. This also admits that biological essentialism is fake and that Exandria is pretty gender equalthough, which some people don't want to do.)

Part of why I've been so frustrated is that, at least from my perspective, the overwhelming majority of hate and harassment I've seen within the fandom in Campaign 3 - and in Campaign 2 - has been from people who have shipped Marisha and Laura's characters. There has, in fact, been pretty considerable hate as well as measured criticism levied towards M/F ships (we're seeing some with Ashton/Laudna here, but both Fjord/Jester and Caleb/Jester, the latter of which I actively dislike and have openly criticized, received pretty vehement hate last campaign and most of it came from people who shipped Jester with Beau) and M/M ships (less harassment per se but people who shipped Caleb with Jester said some truly awful things about Caleb/Essek; also while I have not, you know, harassed people, I have said essentially the same things about how Taliesin and Liam's characters are shipped every campaign despite often having little connection as I have about Marisha and Laura's. I just don't talk about it as much because while I think and have said that Ashton/Orym is basically nothing - and that Widomauk, which most people vaguely classify as M/M, and for that matter, Percy/Vax, all are basically nothing - no one who ships those has called me a cunt or reblogged my posts in an abusive manner or called me out for the grave sin of preferring canon to fanon, so I respect the ship and let ship of it all.) For that matter, the bulk of hate towards Beauyasha came from people who shipped Beau and Jester. Like...I am confident there are people who dislike this ship specifically because it's between two women, and they are homophobic, but that is not the quarter where I think most of the criticism on Tumblr or Twitter is coming from.

So let's get to the last point. Why do people ship two women simply because they're standing next to each other? Why do they ignore countless red flags - and I am specifically talking about treating Imogen and Laudna's relationship as healthy and loving; not about shipping it in general. I cannot stress enough that if you treat Imogen/Laudna as some kind of toxic Briarwoods situation and are into that, I support that entirely.

There are a few reasons. First and foremost, I think a lot of people project onto characters rather than letting the characters provide them with differing perspectives. I find this deeply sad. It's not that you can't draw parallels between your own life and that of fictional characters or see yourself in them - you're supposed to! But it says something depressing about your empathy if your qualifications for which characters speak to you are only those who match your demographics. Like, I've said before, but my favorite characters from past campaigns are Vex and Fjord, and they have a lot in common! If you relate to one based on their themes of Who You Are In The Dark and the mask you present to the world over a face you don't particularly like, you will probably relate to the other! But also...I am a cis bi woman, I am not a person of color as both those characters are often considered coded to be (though am an ethnic minority), nor did I personally experience extensive emotional abuse and poverty as a child. I think there's value in wanting to see people like you! But also...representation is not just "I want to see people like me"; it's also "I want to humanize people who are not like me". If you cannot relate to someone simply because they don't match your gender or sexuality, then that's a really shallow and cold way to interact with the world. And, specifically in relation to queerness within Critical Role: this is a world that has consistently been depicted as not having homophobia or transphobia. I understand wanting to explore these themes and seeing characters who have experienced them, but like...this is not the media that will reasonably have a one-to-one portrayal of homophobia or transphobia, and you often will need to bend over backwards and project a lot of stuff that simply isn't in the canon to read that into them because the worldbuilding simply doesn't support it. And, to be clear, you can do that; but at that point you're applying a lens that only you can obtain, so you shouldn't be surprised if few people come along with you. (I also think it's kind of dumb to watch a show with 5 cis men on it, four of whom are married to women, and be mad that the story has men in it and that those men sometimes are attracted to women; unpacking this would easily double the length of this already incredibly long post though.)

So: this sets a stage for people coming into the show saying "who looks like me, or can I make to look like me" rather than engaging with what's actually going on. Part of why I've been hesitant on Imogen and Laudna the whole time, though started out much more open to it, is in fact that it was heavily shipped from quite literally the moment that Laura and Marisha were indicated to be playing two women who knew each other from before. We knew nothing about their dynamic other than "existing friendship". So I think a lot of people put the cart before the horse and started shipping, and I do think - and I could be entirely wrong - a lot of them, deep down in their hearts, know that they are twisting their interpretations to match an idea of these two characters that has increasingly been proven not to be true onscreen. Like, I think a lot of people kind of realize that Imogen is putting Laudna in a horrible position here; I think a lot of people realize that their so-called 'unconditional' love that transcends words means there's no room to resolve or even express conflict. Perhaps they don't, but like, I'd like to give people the benefit of the doubt. It's just...I think that because this ship is so all-consuming within the fandom, and because so many people have staked their identities within the fandom on it, they don't know how to leave it and are scared of retaliation if they do.

This is backed up by the slow shift I've described - Imodna started out with "they're already girlfriends" or "they're already in love but just haven't said it" or "what could ever happen other than they become ever closer and eventually kiss" (as witnessed by these questions) to "they realized they were in love during the campaign" to "Imogen is in love with Laudna but Laudna isn't aware" to "god remember how they used to talk, I'd give anything for it" to "I guess a QPR is okay" (which is itself bizarre, like, the issues I see in their relationship are still just as much issues in a nonsexual partnership as a sexual one; honestly, it's not a healthy friendship though it is an interesting one and the problem's I have are not going to be fixed by kissing.) Like, it's not the normal evolution of feelings one might have about a ship as the show goes on and more information is revealed, or rather, it's a ship that's becoming less and less confident as time goes on which is the opposite of how canon ships tend to go. (Which, I need to stress, does not discount that it could not be canon; it's just that I think it would require a pretty profound shakeup and conflict to do so). The signs and signals are becoming more and more tenuous and the shippers keep lowering and lowering the bar.

Since I've already brought up past campaigns and ships, let's do it again for the sake of illustration; this feels like how people who shipped Caleb and Jester went from ENDGAME to "Caleb is pushing away Jester to protect her" to "I think Laura is biting her lip when she's looking at Liam! This is a SIGN" even in episodes where Jester was like, actively making out with Fjord, to, and I am not making this up, posting pictures of the CR shop showing Laura in Caleb merch as evidence. Or how the bulk of Vex/Keyleth shipping in TLOVM rested on a scene in the trailer where Keyleth was staring dreamily and drunkenly into space while Vex was across the table only for the show to reveal Keyleth was staring at Vax. Like, all shipping does require a certain degree of cherrypicking, but there is a point where you are focused only on subtext and never text, and while that was how one had to interact with queer stories in the past, it's ridiculous to be doing it on a show where Marisha has openly RP-ed Beau eating Yasha out. Like, if they wanted to show two women being romantically involved, they will. (There's been a lot of Xena comparisons thrown around, and like...not that Xena isn't an important part of the history of depicting F/F relationships in media, but it is also a syndicated show from the 90s and couldn't show an explicitly lesbian relationship, and Critical Role very much can and has.)

I do think there are a subset of people who don't realize how unhealthy this is. Like...this is a whole psychological thing that I am unequipped to unpack, but I do think there are people for whatever reasons genuinely do believe that love means never having to say you're sorry. I am hoping this is because of youth and inexperience, because being able to communicate and advocate for yourself is a crucial part of relationships, as is the ability to express and resolve conflict. As you've noticed, the people who ship this have all said "well, obviously, Imogen won't betray Laudna" - but we don't know that. Honestly I think it could go either way. But they have to make that assumption to keep shipping it, because if Imogen might betray Laudna, then that does mean that there would have been more meaning and value in Laudna speaking up and that conversation was deeply flawed.

I also think some of this comes from unconditional love being an unreasonable expectation foisted upon us all at large. There are always conditions, or rather, you might always in some way love someone, but there are conditions under which you'd leave or boundaries you will draw. You can love someone who (for example) is dealing with an addiction but still refuse to let them drive while intoxicated or steal your stuff to pay for drugs. You can love someone who cheats on you but still want to end that relationship. I mean, while fear, self-doubt, and resources/logistics are all factors in people leaving abusive relationships, it's also true that a lot of people have some affection for the good times and that is a factor as well. Love is not a simple on/off switch. You can feel multiple things at once - honestly, that's what Ashton basically says this past episode, that they both love and hate the party! I think Imogen and Laudna do genuinely love each other, though I don't interpret it as romantic; I just also think that there's a lot of stuff they don't like about each other but are unable to express, and which will only become more and more of a threat to a potential romantic (or queerplatonic) relationship if left to fester unresolve. And, to be honest, I suspect real-world homophobia and fandom purity issues are part of why people are so unwilling to discuss why Imogen and Laudna's relationship is unhealthy; because it means admitting that queer relationships can have most of the same problems as straight ones, and possibly admitting that you still find an unhealthy relationship interesting and want to see it played out.

[angelhummel]

not to be a hater i was just thinking about this recently. the biphobia in Glee is so inconsistent with how its addressed.

like i’m pretty sure the ONLY person who ever gets called out for saying anything remotely biphobic is Kurt (which like im glad bc it was a shitty thing to say. tho i think kurt antis use it to frequently paint this rhetoric that kurt is a bad person bc of one (1) shitty thing he said)

meanwhile santana can say shitty things about bisexuality bc shes mad that brittany is dating sam and thats apparently fine???? she really has the idea that brittany is betraying her for penis which is bizarre. also i feel like she enabled dani’s biphobia as well.

i love santana, but i feel like this issue is heavily glossed over by fans while kurt’s comment is apparently bad enough to crucify him :/

I know we've talked about it before but I also just thought of it again recently. Bc there was a poll with Here Comes The Sun and someone in the tags was like "I'll vote for anything over Dani's biphobic ass" and it's like well baby girl Santana's biphobic ass is literally standing right next to her. And people sure don't have a problem voting for Santana's songs despite how blatantly biphobic she also is

And also transphobic, we can throw that in there, bc it's always about Penis and Boys hand in hand like there's no other option. Never mind Unique has been on the show for over a season, let's keep equating dick with gross boys and pussy with beautiful lesbian 100% pure sapphic goddesses 😍😍 Bleh it's like they tried to cram in every last shred of offensive sexual language they could think of into one two minute scene

BUT it's not like I'm judging that specific tagger, or anyone else who dislikes Dani. Bc at least Santana is a character with a million other things going for her besides the worst things she's said (exactly like Kurt hi) whereas Dani had like ten lines in her time on the show and half of them were "sapphic goddess" and "i love lady parts" barf

"She enabled Dani's biphobia as well" yeah literally. She could've just said "I was dating a girl and it didn't work out and we broke up" but she specifically threw "and she was bi" into the middle of it like that's part of the reason they broke up lmao. Santana, who tells Brittany that it's okay for her to date someone new, boy or girl, just to throw a fit when Brittany ends up dating Sam and makes it into some weird thing about her need for dick and how she's Less Than bc she's bi. And telling that to a potential new partner so she can reinforce her shitty stereotypes by also being gross about bi people (: Amazing

And anyway bringing it back to Kurt and double standards but like. That's pretty much the only offensive thing Kurt ever said lmao. Like yeah he said some dumb or thoughtless things here and there but if you take out that one glaring fuck up, you're not really left with anything that bad. Whereas if you extract Santana's biphobia from the equation, you're still left with six seasons of racism, homophobia, transphobia, antisemitism, fatphobia...

So yeah :) Double standards, anon, double standards x

[stackslip]

btw the reason it took me years to id as a lesbian wasn't even because of internalised lesbophobia, it was specifically because of these kind of people who were also so fucking obsessed about Lesbian Identity Purity! that and the number of irl cis lesbians i met who were very vocally and casually transphobic and biphobic and directly tied it to their lesbian identity--"lesbians cant like dick", "bi women are tainted by manhood", etc. i always find it kinda eyeroll-worthy when i see all these posts whining about cis and tme lesbians being ever tied to terfs, as though most terf theorists (and i mean radical feminists not your fucking straight conservative british columnist or jk fuvking rowling) WERENT lesbians who directly tied their lesbianism and feminism to hatred of trans women. like genuinely let's start cleaning our own house before sobbing about how it's mean to ever imply that lesbians could be transphobic because Lesbianism Has Always Included Trans Women (which is flat out a lie for a majority of cis and tme lesbians. there are fucking studies man. cmon.)

[olderthannetfic]

The only real issue I got with microlabels or new-labels is when they're literally defined in a way to shit on labels who's sexuality the new label is based on. I think 10 years ago bi and pan is the best example, though I still see people using the biphobic and transphobic definition of "Would date trans people, because we don't just care about what's inside someone's pants." or whatever the different variations sounded like, and how people would call bisexuals bigots. Which never made sense when using the "is attracted to trans people." Because... if you not only need a specific label to ALSO be attracted to trans MEN and WOMEN you are kinda saying that trans is a "secret third". But also always made me wonder where's the lesbian, het and gay version of that? The more common and neutral version of Pan that more people seem to use is much less passive aggressive-openly aggressive: Pan don't have a gender preference. Since ya know, bisexuality is considered to be a spectrum where attraction levels can vary.

If a label seems to be built on shitting on another label, or be condescending I feel like those labels ain't shit because being an asshole about how special you are and how shitty you think someone else's label is, is just really childish. If your entire shtick is that you're so much better than everyone else, and that your label specifically is so much more superior then you're just a virtue signalling asshole.

--

[coldgoldlazarus]

It's really something when exclusionists invoke the specter of conservatism as a "gotcha" against the people they're trying to exclude.

To a certain extent the logic can be followed; lots of assholes insist that gay people, lesbians in particular, aren't really gay, they just need the right man, or whatever. Backlash to that disgusting attitude is the reasoning given for a lot of the biphobic arguments I've seen. "Well bi people basically justify what those guys are saying, so clearly bi people are those guys!" Ergo, anyone who supports bi/pan people (or bi/pan-including labels) is a conservative as well in their eyes, trying to undermine the 'sanctity' of homosexual relationships by sneaking hetero stuff into it.

But hmm, doesn't that sound a little fuckin' backward? Frankly, with only slight rewording, sounds pretty close to certain transphobic arguments, which is why I said yesterday that the trans people I've seen this shit from should know better in particular.

Because where the argument falls apart is that it's ultimately still just another form of queerphobia. Bi and pan people aren't any less queer, and they're still discriminated against just the same as strictly gay people; still would be forced into the closet, identities and attraction denied, if conservatives had their way.

More to the point, this whole idea that their existence somehow threatens or invalidates strictly gay people, propping up that "right man/right woman" narrative, ignores that the problem is coming from the people pushing that narrative, not bi/pan people just existing.

Similarly, the whole argument against like, Bi Lesbians or other similar stuff, is based on not just biphobia but also a rejection of intersectionalism or split attraction or, well, identities they don't understand. My bi lesbian girlfriend isn't asking me, a monosexual lesbian, to fuck guys. Her also being attracted to guys doesn't undermine my lack of that, her still being a lesbian romantically, or our relationship. And like, I will admit there are microlabel identities, like he/him lesbians, I don't really fully understand either? But I don't need to 'get it' to accept it, and just let people live their lives and be true to themselves, because we're all in this together in the end.

I cannot overstate enough how little respect I have for this and other exclusionist arguments; it comes across like they either don't know about or don't care about the problems the queer community as a whole faces, and think picking out another subgroup to distance themselves from is clearly the bigger priority. Frankly, I'll always be more than a bit suspicious of that sort of stuff, because even if they're not a right-wing plant, they sure are doing the right's work for them, and no amount of insisting [X other queer group] are the real conservatives will change that.

[bi-sapphics]

it doesn’t matter why a woman wants to be les4les, she doesn’t owe you an explanation. no means no, even if it’s a reason you don’t like. learn that and move on. trying to convince a lesbian to change her boundaries is creepy. incel vibes.

so, i'll be a little more blunt about this.

you're right. i can't, nor will i try to, stop a person from being les4les. and i am not owed an explanation either. i did not fail to acknowledge that.

what i said was, i have never come across a reason that doesn't inherently imply something negative or harmful about bi women. which, by the way, is in fact my business once these things are stated, because then i'm well within my right to call that out and defend bisexuals (hell, i literally just came across this today ─ if you're gonna argue with me on that person then you're definitely not open to viewing bi women respectfully). i don't have a right to try forcing said lesbian to be open to les4bi because that is actually wrong and violates existing personal boundaries, but i do have a right to challenge the reasoning and judge them for it if i think it's biphobic. if you see that as forceful coercion then that's a you problem.

i also asked the les4les community to simply briefly reflect for just a moment on why they wish to exclude bi women from their dating pool, especially if they claim to be allies to bisexual sapphics (as some of the rhetoric could be internalized as well before unlearning it). i did not demand or even ask them to change their preferences, because people who don’t care at the end of the day can still be biphobic if they choose, and i do believe not all les4les are biphobic either. for example, there's a difference between casually favoring lesbians and outright rejecting bisexuals, even if they unfortunately often overlap. i don't have that kind of power to change their minds. wouldn’t you be uncomfortable if i said i didn’t want to date lesbians because they’re always mean, and exclusive, and transphobic, and whining about “lesbophobia” this, “lesbophobia” that??

what i feel the greatest need to address is that i'm not really sure where in my post you got the idea that if i was told "no", i'd keep pushing someone or harass them, not to mention that being against something in theory doesn't have to mean actively disrespecting it. in fact, i tried to be as open as i could, especially by clarifying that i don't think les4les (or bi4bi) relationships are inherently problematic or wrong. imo they're fine even though these particular preferences are kinda weightless without the bigotry and stereotyping anyways regardless.

but, sure, speaking out against (what is usually) bad-faith prejudice and scrutiny is femcel vibes. /s

TL;DR ─ you can have your preferences in peace but i can also criticize them indirectly.

[littleabriel-blog]

I'm both bisexual and ace (demisexual) and I can confirm the aphobes were using the exact same recycled homophobia arguments that biphobic queer people use towards bisexuals.

And yes I remember alto well the white lesbians who whined about the existence of ace women being an "affront to lesbianism", which they also use on bi and pansexual women. It just goes to show that women can be just as entitled as men when it comes to sex....like, so sorry there are women out there who will never want to sleep with you. Sound familiar? Its what a lot of Sapphics say to straight men, and once again goes to show the exhausting double standards exhibited by the radfem movement.

Aphobia is still a problem in the community (as are bi and panphobia) and the fight really is far from over. You still have a lot of exclusionists who state "hetero" aro/aces don't belong in the community, that bis and pans have "straight passing privilege" and don't belong (especially if we are in opposite sex relationships), and let's not forget the transphobes. The LGB Alliance is still, unfortunately, very much a thing and still active, despite the fact that they represent queer people about as well as Autism Speaks represents autistics (for a group who claims to support the B, there is a breath taking amount of biphobia on their Twitter/X feed, which is no surprise. 9 times out of 10, scratch a transphobe, you'll find a biphobe too...not always the case. I have unfortunately met one or two specimens of the rare bisexual transphobe).

And yes its still very ugly. I think equating aces with pedos is like every aphobe's favorite hobby (ironic coming from queer aphobes, consider that homophobic straights have been equating homosexuality with pedos for decades. This community has a dreadfully short memory) cause I still see a lot of that.

But yes kids. Don't take what you have now for granted. Thank your elders who fought the good fight so that you dont get dog piled on when you mention that you're on the ace spectrum.

I don't think younger/newer users fully grasp the shit show that ace discourse was around 2014-17

It was so hostile that, to this day, discussions that begin to derail just enough can make me physically nauseous, some specific mockery trigger crying sessions years later. We lost most accounts with any sort of ace positivity. There was no information, no support, and all this damage was done predominantly by other queer people.

All this to say that you, however you identify yourself, should be engaging with aphobic comments the same way you do any hate. We don't sugarcoat or try to be comprehensive with people who are blatantly racist, homophobic or terfs, so why give it a pass just because it's coming from a queer person? I see how this tolerance goes and it's done enough damage as it is.