#it’s the way Adrien has no more character beyond loving marinette

[depressed-teacup-inc]

Kwami’s choice is making me want to scream

Ok first half of kwami’s choice is out, kudos for glob for actually not posting the second half first (they’ve been releasing the season all over the place) and this would be episode 10 of season 5

So finally we have some context on what changed so much in two episodes that Marinette is back with Adrien and forgot completely about Chat Noir, and��� THERES LITERALLY NO EXPLANATION!!!

I am telling you, the show legit just makes marinette depressed and crying about her love life again (again, somehow her abandoning all the Kwamis is an afterthought because “love” and not “yeah you fucked up because you refused to treat your partner equally and chose to keep secrets and make dumb decisions on your own and you’re literally digging your own grave”) marinette being “completely in love with chat” for nine episodes was never even mentioned beyond one line, AND ADRIEN TAKES THE BLAME FOR MARINETTE BEING SAD.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FOLKS THE GUY THAT REFUSED A RELATIONSHIP WITH A CIVILIAN BECAUSE OF THE UNHEALTHY POWER DYNAMICS THAT WOULD RESULT FROM SAID RELATIONSHIP DESPITE HIS EMOTIONS IS THE ONE AT FAULT HERE BECAUSE HE “FLIRTED WITH MARINETTE AND BROKE HER HEART”

…I swear to fucking god, ANYWAYS-

Marinette further digs her own grave with Adrien telling him they could never work and that’s blamed on the “iDEnTItY rULe” (which still for some reason matters even tho it legit doesn’t but ok)

Adrien is almost akumatized by his own fucking father TWICE (the only fucking reason Gabriel didn’t akumatize Adrien the first time was because he didn’t have a fucking alliance) I HATE THAT MAN IF THEY EVEN TRY TO JUSTIFY HIM IM OUT

And Tikki and Plagg choose to revoke the miraculouses from Marinette and Adrien for them to be togetherrrr.

Now listen, I understand where theoretically this could be a bittersweet, allowing kids to be kids so to speak, but like. The reasoning is driving me crazy

Like the way the Kwamis and show really decided that romance and teenagers dating is more important then the fate of Paris (especially when that entire relationship sucked to begin with and had so much stalking and red flags) but also the way there’s literally no nuance?

Like what happened to Adrien’s entire “chat noir is the only time I truly get to be me and escape from my constricting life” shtick? What happened to Marinette’s… well I would say her commitment to Paris and saving the Kwamis, and also caring about chat noir, but literally none of these end up sticking in the end, BUT THERES LITERALLY NO NUANCE ANYMORE!

Like the minute the kwamis leave with the miraculouses the only indication we get of Adrien (not even marinette) being sad about not being a hero anymore is his abusive dad saying “his sadness has gotten greater” for a few seconds, AND THEN THEYRE INSTANTLY HAPPY?!

Adrien just rushes to confess to Marinette, and Marinette is suddenly super in love with Adrien, WHICH PROVES NOTHING THAT THEY EVER HAD GOING ON WITH THE HEROES EVER MATTERED?!

Adrien no longer cares about his freedom or his image OR PLAGG because “oh yeah I have marinette so I’m complete!” And Marinette NEVER CARED FOR THE KWAMIS CHAT NOIR HER MISSION OR ANYTHING!!! These two are suddenly as happy as they ever were with no fucking problems in their life!

While the new heroes (yeah btw Alya and Zoe are the new heroes, it’s kinda bland, Zoe is only there to show how much better she is in comparison to Chloe, and her design IS UGLY) are fighting, Marinette and Adrien don’t even show a glimpse of worry, or paranoia, or even an instinct to go fight or “call the heroes” as they do! They legit don’t fucking care and CUDDLE!

The show legit said “yeah all these seasons of these heroes fighting for Paris and truly being influenced by their hero lives? YEAH THAT NEVER MATTERED LOOK GUYS THEYRE HUGGING!”

And I would even be ok with it if the show wanted to go down the road of “yeah being a hero is awful and no one in their right mind would ever want to do it but would rather have the messed up compulsion to help others” BUT THEY DONT DO THAT!!! The show is still like “they’re meant to be!”, they’re still heroes in the next episodes, and literally it seems the only reason they’re still heroes in future episodes, is because the new heroes instantly got tracked down! So they have no motive to be heroes, and no compulsion to be heroes and they don’t seem to be affected from their hero lives, so none of it matters!

There is literally no more nuance or care put into being a hero in this show (the new heroes were pretty much randomly selected teens again, rather then i don’t know, ADULTS? I get that this is a magical girl show, but it would be so cool to show adult heroes handling their emotions and powers better then teens and being role models) and the show legit sacrificed any chance of nuance or character motivation it had for the love square! That’s just bad writing!

But yeah I’m going to go scream into a pillow, call me when part 2 is out

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I think part of the trouble with reading ML as a magical girl team is that it’s really written to be Marinette as the Lone Hero.

Sticking with Winx Club as an example (which I absolutely loved), even though Bloom was clearly the main character, the other girls got focus and attention and their own narratives unrelated to Bloom’s. Alya doesn’t have that; nearly the entirety of her scenes and focus are still for or related to Marinette’s story, which the writers have outright told us is always meant to come first.

As such, I think the more solid reading of ML is that it’s a poorly written superhero romcom that pretends to be a magical girl team, but only ends up offering crumbs. It’s why we’re shown the extra Miraculous and given a “core four/five,” only for it to be revealed that the new holders aren’t actually permanent team members. A decision I remember thinking at the time made absolutely no sense, but now in hindsight can be perfectly explained by how doing so would necessitate that attention/focus be taken from Marinette, which ML absolutely refuses to do.

In fact, I’d wager that’s the actual reason Chat Noir has a crush on Ladybug before Adrien falls for Marinette: it keeps his attention even as a hero focused on her. There’s plenty of salters who love to deride him for not focusing enough on the “job” and making LB pick up his “slack,” but that fits the show’s intentions perfectly. Chat can’t be written to (as) capable if LB is to shine. Hence why we had the whole Catwalker argument being nonsensically centered around “perfection.” 😭

(Post with the Winx club example for context.)

You're absolutely right. Miraculous is trying to be a loan hero show (or perhaps a serious hero and silly sidekick show) where Marinette is the only important character outside of the villains, a magical girl team show where female friendships are the most important relationships in the show, and a heterosexual rom-com all at the same time which leads to a ton of nonsense choices because those are three genres that really don't mix!

While I never outright said it, the post about rom-coms vs magical girl team shows was spawned by the fandom conflict over Alya's writing in the later seasons. I wanted to take a moment to point out why she keeps being given the roles that people expect Chat Noir to get and why both sides of that fandom conflict have very valid feelings given the way that the show is being written, so I didn't talk about the lone hero thing since that doesn't really play a part in Alya and Adrien's fight for narrative importance. If we're looking at Miraculous as a whole though, then it's 100% a piece of the puzzle when you're trying to figure out where the writing went wrong.

I've mentioned a couple of times that they're putting way too much on Marinette's shoulders. The main reason that I feel that way is because they also decided to give her a full team of heroes to work with which is deeply confusing. If they really wanted to go the Marinette-is-the-only-real-hero route, then we should have never gotten any additional heroes beyond Ladybug and Chat Noir. Keep Chat Noir as the comedy sidekick and let Ladybug use all of the other miraculous as powerups without ever handing them out.

After all, when it comes down to their actual role in the narrative, most of the team feels like nothing more than a powerup since they basically just do whatever Ladybug tells them to do. Outside of Viperion and Bunnyx, there's no reason why Ladybug can't just dual, triple, or quadruple wield. This is extra true because they took the time to tell us that Marinette is able to wield more miraculous than most people and then... never really did anything with that. Why have a line like this one from Kwamibuster if you're never going to have Marinette do more than the occasional dual wield?

Master Fu: No Miraculous owner in all of history has ever been mentally and physically strong enough to use that many Miraculous at the same time. Wayzz: Marinette truly is special, Master.

Switching from a team back to a duo would also fix the awkwardness of Adrien's writing as that really wasn't a problem back in season one. The hero who does all the cool stuff and their wacky comedy sidekick who keeps things fun is a classic setup for a reason!

[flightfoot]

Do you think Luka was a doormat for Marinette? If so, how?

Sort of? One of the reasons Luka annoyed me so much during seasons 2 and 3 (Aside from Lukanette shippers having a habit of demonizing Adrien, Alya, etc), was that he didn't actually seem to have any emotions or ambitions beyond being there for Marinette, to the point that it felt like he was some imaginary boyfriend she cooked up. I really like to try to see things from other characters' perspectives, but when I tried to do that for Luka, I just felt like I was getting brainwashed.

Luka doesn't feel any emotions that would be inconvenient for Marinette in those early seasons, like jealousy at being a second choice, desire to actively compete for her perspective, or anything except wanting to patiently be there for her if she decided she wanted him, and complete acceptance without a hint of bitterness if she chose someone else. I'm not saying he should have been a jerk about it, but he's so chill and has so few problems that it feels inhuman. I far preferred the plotline with Adrien's and Kagami's relationship, Kagami reacted way more like a normal person who has wants and desires of her own. During seasons 2 and 3, the most that Luka was developed outside of his relaitonship with Marinette, is the 30 second clip in Reflekdoll where we see him assuring Juleka. That at least indicates that he HAS relationships outside of just Marinette.

That being said, Luka DID improve in seasons 4 and 5, if only a little. He's still more chill and accepting than I think is natural or healthy, but with his playing therapist to so many people in Migration, it's shown to be a "him" thing, rather than him inexplicably being warped around Marinette in particular. In Truth, it's shown that he IS bothered by Marinette constantly running off and lying to him, even if he's way more accepting about it than he has any right to be. He DOES feel hurt, even if he suppresses it.

Most importantly, he's given emotional baggage of his own, with feeling insecure and abandoned due to his father abandoning him and Juleka, not even knowing who he was. I love that as Truth, he actually got to be ANGRY at Jagged for that abandonment. And afterwards, there were several episodes that touched on his and Juleka's developing relationship with their father, giving Luka more of an anchor in the story outside of just Marinette.

So basically, yeah, I do think Luka's a doormat not only for Marinette, but really for anyone he cares about. He's good at standing up to random jerks, but not at standing up to those who knows don't have any malicious intentions, but still end up hurting him.

But I also think that with how the newer seasons have developed Luka, there's some interesting space to delve into WHY Luka feels the need to subjugate his own emotions, wishes, and desires so much - because it's been proven that he does have them, and doesn't just exist for any particular person's sake in the story.

[familyagrestefanblog]

Throwing a disclaimer out because I think it's time I say it again just to be sure:

Me having fallen so much out of love with Marinette by now isn't because I hate that her side of the conflicts was given more weight than Adrien's or that I "don't understand that she's the main character"

My problem lies in HYPOCRISY. Marinette's writing ever since season 4 has been going out of its way to be as hypocritical as possible in basically every aspect of the story, but especially the love square, and then it was sold as "justified and totally morally sound feminism" just because it's a girl doing it.

The amount of harmful messages Maribug was retooled into teaching as "empowerment" without any genuine accountability on her part - beside some vagueness sometimes that stops meaning anything the next moment it actually matters - are insane and inherently on child abuse victims expense to the point where I don't actually trust alot of Marinette stans opinions on child abuse and leadership anymore which is the worst thing Marinette's character could have been made to cause.

I hate that sexist HYPOCRISY was declared EMPOWERING as long as the girl benefits from it. I stand under no obligation to support a harmfully hypocritical main character of a female empowerment kids cartoon, and if you think I do, learn what actual feminism is.

I repeat: my problem lies in the deeply interwoven and glorified hypocrisy

NOT in the fact that Marinette's side of the narrative was covered at all.

I was and AM perfectly fine and supportive of that, but what I don't support is the show ever since season 4 hardcore retooling the narrative into ONLY Marinette's side and benefit mattering and in some of the worst and most hypocritical ways possible to the point where Marinette never even made a single effort in finding Hawkmoth to actually DO HER JOB and take a fraction of interest in the man underneath his mask because that wouldn't have been about HERSELF.

Years ago, 2x01 "The collector" promised me a main character who will actually show initiative to end the war in more regards than herself first and foremost becoming the Queen of the world. I signed up for Marinette as main character who will actually SAVE Gabriel's victims with her compassion and drive to help people

I didn't get that beyond the most surface level way possible because Marinette and the narrative were written to prioritizing her being entirely in control of everything, girlbossing her love interest into being her submissive care taker for which she hardly took any accountability for, and looking cool hitting stuff including her love interest and the remains of her Villain's wife who never wanted this, but Marinette threw a fucking LIFT on her body to get a strategic advantage over Gabriel by taking advantage of Gabriel's remaining humanity and love for the very woman at the core of all this.

Emilie, who was fridged and silenced beyond anything resembling to feminism, but it HAD to happen because Emilie's story isn't about Marinette and the narrative had to make sure Marinette will be celebrated "as such a cool girlboss!" for throwing a fucking LIFT on the remains of the villain's loved one while she simultaneously failed Emilie's son - Marinette's own "partner" - so MUCH as partner and leader that he had literally no way to possibly make it out of this partnership because Marinette teached Chat Noir that she's all that matters, he gets no support, help, resources, or a voice when it isn't to her benefit.

When the chips are down, he has to die quietly and give up his ring because Ladybug couldn't be asked to look beyond her personal experience, benefit and comfort in this "partnership" while simultaneously needing to be taken care of, as good as worshipped, and celebrated by him like a mind reader for EVERYTHING because she wasn't "ill-intentioned"

Which she is explicitly written to prioritize people understanding that about her than actually working on herself in ways that truly matter.

I once signed up for Marinette being the main hero and savior of Paris and Gabriel's victims, but all I got is glorified hypocrisy thats sold as "empowerment" and a worshipped girlboss main heroine who postponed doing her job so fucking much that the main villain shaped the entire in-universe world already BEFORE he won and made his wish, as well as several characters being damned and irreversibly negatively affected by his power and influence over and on them by the time Marinette was finally spoon-feed into being able to face Hawkmoth at literally 11:59 pm.

But hey, I suppose all that mattered was Marinette BENEFITTING from that to sweep her own big flaws under the rug, as well as her looking cool hitting stuff in different super hero suits to she can become the Queen of the world.

I would apologize for having thought that Marinette's hero's journey was about more than that, but that's literally nothing I have to apologize for.

[foxwitchaine]

Question

Which characters from other media, do you think is a better version of miraculous ladybug characters?

I'm gonna take this question with a huge pile of salt. Because there's more than one show that does this concept better than what MLB does. That also includes how they handle the cast. I'm also gonna sound like a broken record with the upcoming "buckle up", but buckle up and hold on tight, everyone. It's gonna be a rollercoaster.

1.) Mr. Freeze

I know for sure I'm cheating just by mentioning him, but Mr. Freeze is what Gabriel Agreste should have been in regards to his quest for Emilie. Mr. Freeze isn't just a sad man mourning for his wife. He is broken. Shattered. Screwed over by people higher on the corporate ladder than himself (doesn't that sound familiar). Thing is, Mr. Freeze's story resonates with people and is part of the reason why he is still talked about today. He's also shown a kinder side, like the time he made it snow during Christmas in one issue of The Batman Adventures comics. All for the simple reason his late wife would have been sad if there had been no snow that year.

His demise in Batman Beyond left many viewers heartbroken, as we're left wondering what could have been.

Gabriel Agreste, on the other hand, is utterly and thoroughly selfish and thinks of no one but himself. This is best seen in how he treats his son throughout the show. Disregarding Season 5 (I have no idea how they thought they could pull it off), Gabriel has not shown one ounce of humanity. Not towards Nathalie, not towards Adrien, not even towards his wife, who he supposedly loves. Other than the show telling us how much he loved her (this is a recurring problem with MLB's writing), we never would have known.

Gabriel's death in Season 5, as a result, is much less impactful than Mr. Freeze's death in Batman Beyond.

2.) Madoka Kaname

Now this is a more recent show that I still think holds up. For those not in the know, Puella Magi Madoka Magica is a 12-episode anime series that aired in 2011 and, for lack of a better word, changed the game in magical girl anime. While one could argue that it tears down rather than celebrates women in power (as magical girl shows are supposed to do, Astruc), and it's not the most original concept (what is, nowadays), one thing most can agree on is the character writing, especially for Madoka.

Madoka, just like Marinette, is a selfless sweetheart who performs the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good. What separates her from Marinette, tellingly enough, is how her sacrifice is written. Throughout the anime, Madoka watches helplessly from the sidelines as her best friend Sayaka sacrifices herself for a boy. And then Sayaka gradually loses herself as the truth about magical girls comes to light. We aren't just told how Madoka feels about it. We see and feel it ourselves. I could write an essay on how well-written Sayaka's tragedy is, but that's beside the point. The point is, Madoka chose the sacrifice rather than having it forced on her by the writers.

Sound familiar?

It should.

Gen Urobuchi, despite his reputation, took the time to respect Madoka's agency as a character. Thomas Astruc tears down Marinette every chance he gets. You can't get more telling than this.

3.) Prince Zuko

You're all probably gonna get tired of hearing me talk about Avatar: The Last Airbender. But then again, I'm pretty sure every ATLA fan has heard that in the years since the original show ended. I've mentioned him before when talking about Chloe's botched redemption, but I feel this is the perfect place to expand and discuss more.

Prince Zuko is what Chloe Bourgeouis should have been in the show. And no, his redemption didn't come out of nowhere. It was consistently foreshadowed throughout the show all the way from the very first episode. This is an essay all in itself, so I'll refrain from diving into detail. But the fact of the matter remains that Zuko is the gold standard for writing a villain redemption. I could point out Darth Vader as another example of a villain redemption. But where he had to die to redeem himself, Zuko didn't.

Zuko also had a better-written backstory that explained (not excused, there's a difference) his behavior at the start of the show. I can't claim to know what the MLB writers had in mind when writing Chloe, but I'm pretty sure Audrey Bourgeois was supposed to be the Ozai figure in Chloe's backstory. Which leads me to my next point:

Zuko wasn't forgiven right away.

Yes. You heard that right.

Zuko had to work to be forgiven by the people he had wronged. And guess what? He failed. If anyone remembers when Azula critically injured Aang and Zuko betrayed Iroh to the Fire Nation, you'll all know what I'm talking about.

Zuko fell during his redemption arc. But he got back up again. And he apologized — genuinely apologized — to the man he betrayed.

4.) Odd Della Robbia

Code Lyoko is a relic from the early 2000s eras of cartoons. And boy, could I write essay after essay on this show. But since we're talking about characters and such, we'll be focusing on this lovable jokester from the show.

Odd Della Robbia is what Chat Noir should have been if he had been in the hands of competent writers. Odd isn't just the perpetually hungry jokester of the group who chased the first pretty girl who caught his attention. He pulled his weight in the battles against the malevolent AI X.A.N.A. Be it through helping Aelita reach the Towers, fighting Specters in the real world, heck even fending off Sissi during her worst moments. Perhaps even more damning is how Odd, despite his less pleasant actions and habits, was more of a true friend to his group than Chat Noir is to Ladybug.

Yes, writers. You can write a jokester character beyond what comes from his mouth.

No, this doesn't mean you can let them harass everyone they come across.

Perhaps, I'm gonna say this a lot, even more damning is how Odd responds to the rejections from the various pretty girls he chases. He actually takes no for an answer. Shocking, isn't it. He chases a skirt, they say no, he moves on. And no, this isn't portrayed as romantic or heroic. It's portrayed just as it is. A hormonal teenage boy being prone to doing stupid things.

What teenager hasn't done something stupid thanks to their hormones?

5.) Susan Ashworth

(Content Warning: mature themes such as suicidal depression)

I'm venturing into mature video games here, admittedly. I couldn't quite find one from my childhood that stood out, so I browsed through some game playthroughs I watched years ago. Ultimately, I settled on Susan Ashworth from the 2012 game The Cat Lady. Astruc being a man shouldn't be an excuse for him writing Marinette and other female characters so poorly. Why? Because Susan Ashworth, and by extension the game she is from, was written by a man.

Funny. I know.

What's even more amazing is how the developer Remigiusz Michalski, who publishes his games under the label Harvester Games, tackled such serious topics such as depression and suicide. No, he didn't use them for shock value, as that's very commonly done very tactlessly. He handled them with maturity and grace. Susan isn't defined by her depression even though she successfully committed suicide in the opening of the game. She has moments of humor and snark, like in the scene where Mitzi is showing her how to use social media. It also helps that Michalski... actually knows what he's talking about, as it's stated in interviews that he worked as a nurse before he created the first game Downfall in 2009.

I can't stress enough the importance of research before writing. Astruc clearly has a lot of ideas he wants to shove into Miraculous Ladybug, but they all fall flat due to a glaring lack of research and preparation. I'm not saying go do gruesome things for your craft and stick to "write what you know". I'm saying know what you're getting into before you dive in. One glaring example I think everyone can agree was poorly handled was Qilin, thanks to plot with the racist ticket inspector.

Michalski clearly knew what he was doing when he wrote Susan's story. Astruc continues to flail in his attempts to keep Miraculous Ladybug relevant.

Honorable Mentions:

Ratchet and Clank, Jak and Daxter - This is how you write snarky hero and sidekick duos

Jerry, from Totally Spies - Come on. You all knew as soon as I mentioned Code Lyoko that this guy would come up

Mandy, also from Totally Spies - She's very entertaining despite being the high school queen bee archetype. It also helps that she consistently faced punishment for her actions

Sissi Delmas, from Code Lyoko - I was gonna use her in place of Zuko just for the fact she showed other traits, such as her protectiveness of Milly during the zombie episode

Uncle Iroh - Do I even need to say it out loud?

KOS-MOS, from the Xenosaga trilogy - She's an excellent example of how to slowly unveil a character throughout the story

Tidus and Yuna, from Final Fantasy X - A really good example of how to write a romance into the story without dragging the plot down

Fiona Belli, from Haunting Ground - A bit polarizing, I know, but Fiona's friendship with Hewie is so heartwarming and grounding. Basically what Chat Noir should have also been to Ladybug

[ilikekidsshows]

Thoughts on Marinette being empathetic? i saw someone saying that she was super empathetic but I can't really get behind that idea cause I see her as more sympathetic instead. Like she can feel sorry for someone but I don't think she's all that good at putting herself in their shoes and actually realizing the situation beyond "this person I know/care about is sad"

---

I myself have actually analyzed Marinette’s method of relating to others as empathetic rather than sympathetic, because Marinette is completely incapable of figuring out what someone is thinking or feeling from context clues. Neither can she anticipate how someone might react to something. She can only project her own emotions or fears onto others. This is actually a skill Gabriel is incredibly good at, which I once noted as the number one difference between the two.

But, I also think that Marinette's empathy is highly situational. Marinette can't understand logically or emotionally how someone is feeling, unless it's a situation she herself is or has been in. However, if she can recognize someone's situation in her own life, she's suddenly so empathetic she can't contain herself. Notice how she was totally fine with bullying and sabotaging Kagami, until she found out Kagami was desperately yearning for a boy she has no relationship with, just like her. Then suddenly Marinette “My Adrien Problems Are The Number One Priority Always” Dupain-Cheng is so empathetic that she actually feels conflicted about getting in the way of their romance.

Still, when the situation someone is in is something she hasn't experienced, Marinette just can't relate or understand at all. She has seen a parent abusing their child in three different contexts, yet she insists all these parents are good parents because her parents are good to her. She completely ignores Cat Noir trying to tell her that he’s not emotionally fine, projecting her idea of Cat Noir onto the real Cat Noir, until his problems directly affect her, and then she proceeds to project her own thoughts and feelings on what's going on, like assuming that, just because her biggest problem is unrequited love, that's all that's bothering Cat Noir as well when he has been telling her otherwise for weeks if not months.

Marinette's main problem is projection. She acts like she's the center of the universe and the main character. Like, she is both of these things, but a fictional character isn't supposed to know that unless the writers are trying to be too meta. So, Marinette doesn't know she's the universe's creator's daughter, but she acts like she does and that makes her act entitled and selfish. She can't be bothered to take basic manners or decency into account when she needs to score a date with a hot guy. She will humiliate a classmate and supposed friend and deny him something he was really looking forward to if it means she gets to do something she could also do any other day of the week if she wasn't a coward, like asking the guy she likes to play video games with her. Marinette is absolutely convinced that her crush problems are the most important thing going on at any given moment and everyone else are just supportive characters in the drama that is her life.

While Marinette doesn't seem to live in a fantasy world entirely, she certainly goes around one foot in one. She doesn't go around outright calling her classmates extras and bit parts, but she certainly doesn't treat them as real humans with real feelings either. Even when she helps them she does it like a video game protagonist trying to max out a relationship value. She acts like she already knows what to do, like she's reading a guide, but she gets it wrong so many times so the guide is faulty, but she still gets a free pass every time because “she had good intentions”. I’ve never seen a 14-year-old get granted this much slack for such blatant disregard of others’ opinions.

Whether it's empathy or sympathy, whatever method Marinette is using to relate to others, she is bad at it.

[immaturityofthomasastruc]

Just a short ask spring boarding off that Marinette quote to Adrien in revelation about seeing good in people.

Just, think about how it's phrased. 'That's what I love about you, you always want to see the good in people, etc etc.'

This has two very icky contextual add ons.

1)Marinette doesn't always want to see the good in people. For a magical girl heroine? Eww? If she's som le jaded AF proto-Libertarian then why are we using her for a lens? I don't feel this dialog lines up with the rest of the show, but it is speaking directly to the audience so the impact is still important.

2)The tone here is incredibly paternalistic. 'Oh Adrien, my equal and boyfriend, you're just a little guy who doesn't know any better. Don't worry, I'm here to explain how the world works to you.'

This is extra squicky with the Gabe parallels the show has intentionally drawn *and* the way the S5 finalé shook out.

Neither of these points is me trying to 'bash Marinette.' I feel she is very much being used as a direct mouthpiece without character-driven motive here. It's just another tick in the 'Do they really think this is healthy?' ledger. It seems like they do, and *that* is problematic.

I've said it before, but for a show whose theme song literally talks about the power of love, it really doesn't show practice what it preaches.

Nobody's saying trust can't be taken advantage of, but the show always loves jumping to the conclusion that the second someone is mean to you, you shouldn't try to help them out at all.

Hell, I've seen an actual magical girl show pull off this lesson far better: Healin' Good Precure. What makes Nodoka's refusal to help Daruizen is that the decision is given a lot of weight to it. Nodoka acknowledges how much of a hypocrite she is choosing not to help the literal virus who made her life miserable, while Dariuzen himself showed he wasn't actually going to change his ways, making it clear that he was actually trying to take advantage of Nodoka's kindness.

This is how the lesson should have been handled. We needed to see more internal struggling from Marinette for her to come to this conclusion and write Chloe off as beyond helping, or at the very least, emphasize that kindness won't be enough to help her change her ways.

[theerurishipper]

What's ur opinion on the whole "Blame the writing not the character" thing for writing, cause I think miraculous and its Fandom is a weird case.

Normally I prefer approaching everything from the "Blame the character" angle because at the end of the day all a character is IS their writing (this also applies to good things oc, not just bad). Especially regarding their emotions I don't see much purpose in distancing everything one doesn like about a character from them by saying "Oh, it's just the writing. Disregard it, tahts not who the character truly is" cause at some point that just reads as.. kinda refusing to acknowledge who the character on screen actually is bc one doesn like it.

Miraculous is just a weird case. You can smell the meta decisions 10 miles against the wind - like Marinette and Alya for some reason being able to beat Adrien in battle and Cat Noir pre-s5 being "incompetent". You know exactly that this is not character based writing, Cat has to be weaker than Ladybug and Scarabella because they're girls and they have to look good. It's hard saying Adrien is a weaker fighter in all those cases, or when the temp heros need to be brought in, because you at some level know exactly that there is a meta reason behind it. And that makes it hard to discredit him for that just as much as it's harder to actually give the girls credit for their abilities. They shouldn't be able to beat him so easily, but they do because of their gender and this shows "rules". Just like there is no actual reason in-universe for why he's suddenly on Ladybug's level in season 5. It just is.

(kinda weird how the show also never gave Kagami credit for being a trained fighter either. I guess they thought they can't acknowledge her training either or else they couldn't get away with making Adrien weaker as Cat Noir. So they probably dead ass denied Kagami her special spotlight too for shallow reasons (but at least their consistent)

But on the other hand, I personally don't think Marinette and Adrien leaving in Kwamis choice without saying goodbye to each other is out of character the way most people say it and then just disregard it by saying "it's the writing, not the characters". Rewatching that two parter, it set up alot from the finale, and I don't think them leaving each other like that is out of character just a harsh reality check where we are at after s4.

They never came out of that season actually "better" partnership wise just because Adrien decided to stay by her side these two times and remained kind and supportive. That was decided to be the Cat's definitive job towards the Ladybug so that's what he's continuing to do but that doesn't really concern anything beyond that. In my opinion it is very much questionable how much Ladybug and Cat Noir are actually REAL FRIENDS and not just kind collegues the way Marinette wanted in s4 (with potential for real friendship under better circumstances).

That's also why Adrien gave himself up in the finale, no? If they were real friends he would have been able to ask for her help as she was the only one who could have kept him save because of her yo-yo. But they're just kind collegues, so he didn't.

And just because he stayed her teammate doesn't it mean he's still in love with Ladybug or that he still WANTS to be in love with her after all that pain it caused him. So he made a harsh decision thanks to Plagg and prioritized finally being happy and getting some stability, especially because Gabriel was being fake loving.

And Marinette's romantic feelings for Cat Noir and her acknowledgment of him all together have always been of shakey and chaotic nature. Her feelings for him really started whne she was at her lowest an thinking herself all alone while also being afraid of her feelings for Adrien.

This was from the get go an already dark orange sign for how genuine her feelings are (desperation is always an iffy foundation) and as others already said, she's never seeing more in him than the mask. How can you say you really love a person when you only acknowledge half of their personhood? Marinette only started taking interest in who Cat is when she started getting frustrated by him not reacting the way she wanted him to. If he had I don't think Marinette would have thought about wanting to know who he really is, it really came across like a frustration thing which explained why she was so reckless about it in Elation, and why she then left afterwards.

I don't wanna say she saw no purpose in him anymore after being rejected by him (that's too strong) but we already saw in season 4 that Marinette's treatment or acknowledge of Cat Noir very much reflects what use and purpose she sees in him, hence why he was basically reduced to an irrelevant footnote by the end of season 4. Yes, she wanted him there as teammate but thats it. It's still questionable in my opinion if she even noticed him not showing up anymore at the beginning of Kuro Neko since she reacts surprised when the reporter points out his absence and then claims towards Plagg Cat should be happy that he gets to have time off, as if she just convinced herself that she generously allowed him a week off instead of her having been so deep in team leader mode that she didn't even notice him not showing up anymore.

Marinette not noticing him having stopped showing up is a harsh characterization, but I wouldn't call it out of character in the broader sense.

So her leaving when he rejects her, because she doesn't want to be his friend and teammate but his girlfriend and he said no? Can't say thats out of character either because the show is also really consistent in her characterization that she doesn't see much value in being friends with Adrien either because she loves him, so being friends is the worst thing possible for her.

À décision being harsh and not what one likes doesn mean it's out of character and one should distance the event from the character in one's head.

I think Kwamis choice makes alot of sense, as does the focus on Adrinette instead of Ladynoir, and how the finale played out.

Which goes back to my original question. It's very obvious that there are 20. 000 meta reason controlling the narrative, but in my opinion only in a specific way. Everything still makes sense in my opinion, it just feels so CONTROLLED.

Marinette is a mouthpiece for the writers messages but even if I think the messages are fucked up and hypocritical, I can't say any of it was ever out of character for her?

You get what I mean?

Yeah, I get that. I myself approach it from the "blame the writers" way, but like you said, it's a blurry line. What tips me over ultimately is the fact that Marinette should have grown but clearly didn't. What she does isn't out of character for her for sure, but as far as the writers are concerned, she has grown and she is better, and all the stuff she's doing isn't really a bad thing. So, I can't in good conscience blame the character for being bad when the people who are bringing her to life are the ones who really believe all the stuff that's being said through her. She's supposed to have developed as per the writers' vision, but clearly, she hasn't. It's bad writing, and that really isn't the character's fault. That's how I see it.

Thank you for your ask!

[uptoolateart]

Having now seen the finale three times, details have popped out. I still hate hate hate that Adrien was not there in the final battle...but I think I see what the writers were trying to do.

As we know, there is so much fairytale imagery / allusion in the show, like Rapunzel, Bluebeard, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Pinocchio in a way, Cinderella, etc.

At the start of Conformation, Adrien has been removed from Paris and the mansion - effectively, his kingdom.

He's locked in that room, plagued with his own worst thoughts. He only has his painful unconscious to keep him company. This mirrors Snow White being cast into the woods, running in terror from shadows, the woods and shadows being a classic symbol for parts of our unconscious we are afraid to acknowledge.

He is then tempted with the Alliance and eventually gives in, in mimicry of Snow White accepting the poisoned apple offered by the witch. The apple puts her to sleep. The ring seems to hypnotise Adrien, dulling his senses like sleep.

The action then happens without him, just as in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty the action is all done by the prince.

I said in a previous post (non-ml, just looking at fairytales) that there have been psychoanalytical studies of fairytales to show that they work like dreams - every character is an aspect of one person, so the prince is another part of the princess taking over, to help her break free and mature beyond the child stage. The witch is also the princess, but the part tentative about growing up - and also represents all the adults in her life, afraid to let go of their child.

In Miraculous, though, it really is just Marinette being the prince saving the unconscious princess, and this is what irks me. We will come back to this.

After the Wish, we see Adrien asleep. Marinette leans over to kiss him and he wakes up. It's an odd little moment at a noisy pool party, which is what made it stand out to me. It's the kiss of true love waking him from the spell after the witch / dragon has been defeated. And really, this is where it becomes more like Sleeping Beauty, because that involved a real battle.

And if that's Emilie by the pool, she too is a Sleeping Beauty figure who's just been brought back.

The implication is supposed to be that Adrien has grown up a lot through this, and the demons in his life and mind have been vanquished..although I guess time will tell if this is true.

There was also a lot in the finale about nightmares, like think of this as a nightmare and the Alliance will free you from it, etc etc. When Adrien wakes, it's like everything before it was a bad dream.

But, as my husband commented, all that bad dream stuff is what MADE Ladybug and Cat Noir's relationship. It's what led to them being chosen. It's what changed their lives and helped them grow, so arguably it's what brought them together as Adrien and Marinette.

These bad experiences shape us. We can use them to become better people. Without them, we change.

Adrien cannot be the same person, if his mother is alive...especially if they all believe she's been there the whole time. I guess we will see about that, too. His mother's absence was the initial catalyst for all his growth as a person. He actually needed the dragons. He needs to KNOW about those dragons.

I said ages back that we had a classic Bluebeard scenario, where we were waiting for the princess to open the forbidden door and find all the skeletons in the evil husband's closet. By keeping Adrien out of the basement, he never opened that door.

In some way, he needs to be the prince who vanquishes the monster. Otherwise, he hasn't truly woken up. I don't care how good Marinette's kisses are. He is stuck in an infantile state and unable to grow.

Okay, I...managed to talk myself back round to finding his absence in the battle seriously irritating. But listen - maybe it's frustrating on purpose because they are using this as a plot point for the next stage of the story. I have no idea. But this is why it is so frustrating and doesn't hit the emotional mark. This is what needs to be addressed.

Because right now...Marinette has taken over the Bluebeard story. She is the one with the locked secret room containing all the skeletons of HIS past. We NEED him to open this door and have a genuine awakening. She is taking the Guardian thing too far, watching over rather than simply supporting. She is doing to Adrien what he accuses her of as Ladybug - forgetting he's her partner and leaving him out of vital information.

[froldgapp]

We Need a Hero. Ladybug Ain't It

In a July 2023 interview for the Guardian, creator of the Bechdel test, Alison Bechdel, bemoaned the toothless response from big media properties to demands for more complex female leads:

Is it dismaying that so many films continue to fail the test?

What’s really dismaying now is the way so many movies cynically try to take shortcuts and feature strong female characters – but they just have a veneer of strength and they’re still not fully developed characters.

I won't argue that Marinette/Ladybug isn't developed, but rather, that in Astruc's pursuit of a Strong Female Lead, we have a character whose strength, agency, wit, grief and elation, is most often at the expense of the cast around her.

We see this most clearly in her relationship with Adrien/Chat Noir. Here is a boy who is controlled, neglected, (arguably) abused, lied to, used, and weaponised by his sole guardian; his father. This has resulted in a sheltered and naive character who canonically has a desperately conditional understanding of love and loyalty. Most if not all of the displays of love Gabriel shows Adrien rest not on Adrien the person, but on Adrien the asset. His life is not his own, and as is revealed in very literal terms in Season 5, nor is his body.

The Gabriel and Adrien dynamic echoes through the Marinette and Adrien relationship. We are shown, explicitly in canon, that Marinette doesn't really know Adrien. He's a heartthrob and she understandably has a crush on him. But while in later seasons she casts aspersions at his army of adoring fans who go to any length to be close to him, she herself is clearly no better. Evidence says she's much worse actually. She takes astounding liberties with his day to day life, she lies to get closer to him, she polices his relationships with specifically other female characters, she delights in his sadness as seen in Glaciator 2:

Marinette: Oh, Adrien! Fancy seeing you here! And you look so sad, that's good!

Marinette as hero even abuses her position as Ladybug to break into his room, rifle around his things and even sniff his pillow. The show seems to make some attempt to explain away her behaviour in Derision by telling us that, in fact, Marinette does all this because she is the wounded party. Even if we accept for the moment that Derision wasn't a lazy retro-justification in service of Marinette's poor behaviour, her trauma does not trump Adrien's right to privacy.

Except, in-show, anything Marinette wants or needs trumps anything anyone else wants or needs, including Adrien–her ostensible partner. Adrien feels left out? Actually, this is more stress for Ladybug. Adrien dates Kagami? Actually this is competition for Marinette. Adrien is locked in a near-sensory deprivation chamber by his super villain father and feels forced to relinquish his miraculous? Actually this is bad news for Marinette.

If she's a hero, then she's one that comes with a price–one far beyond what I'm willing to accept as audience. I want a flawed hero. I don't want perfection. But equally, I don't want to be force fed the notion that this girl's dominant flaw is being a clutz. We get a few brief glimpses into the cost of her controlling behaviours but generally we suffer almost the entire cast telling us she is the Most Wonderful and Supreme Being That Has Ever Existed, all this while she consistently excels within the narrative through the diminishment of others. Need we remember her acing the gamer competition having never displayed a previous interest? How she surpasses even Joan of Arc in all matters miraculous?

Marinette the knight and Adrien the supposed Princess in the Tower: on paper the concept is a little tired but interesting, worth exploring. The role reversal that Astruc aimed for fell short though, and what we have instead is a role amplification. As I write, I struggle to think of a piece of media where the romantic interest has been quite so violated, lied to, limited and enfeebled.

Why did Bechdel's quote ring so true with how Marinette/Ladybug is drawn? That I feel cheated. That the potential for greatness was there, but instead we have a character who from a slightly different angle looks like a hero from wow-heroes-are-jerks juggernaut, The Boys.

I hope Season 6 interrogates Marinette's issues of control and denying agency more. I hope we see consequences beyond what is now a tedious series of panic attacks from Marinette when she's caught short. I hope real contrition and growth are modelled and that real, impactful, damaging character flaws aren't swept away by a cloud of narrative magical ladybugs.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Last post you talked about your ideal version of canon, I was wondering could you share it with us? If not, that's ok

Oh man, I could go on about my dream version of canon for ages! I've talked about various aspects of it on here with stuff like my "sugar" posts on Nino and Alya, but the broad strokes are:

Serialized story where it's basically one large narrative told in chunks

A true teams setup where Adrien, Marinette, Alya, and Nino feel like this amazing, tight friend group who grows into a found family as they get older, giving platonic and romantic love more equal billing

No guardian order, just have it be a single-person role that gets passed on from person to person

Kagami and Luka in supporting roles that have nothing to do with being love interests

Sympathetic Gabriel who feels like a truly tragic figure, but who does NOT get redeemed

Emilie gets an actual character

No sentinonsense

Revised miracle box that is way smaller and that has strong lore

The Agreste's aquiring the miraculous is far more morally complex, makes sense, and was not done for explicitly selfish reasons

Reverse the love square right from the start and never have the crushes flip

I've talked about all of these things on here, but the one thing that I've only briefly touched on is my love of a reverse square setup. I am passionate about that one, so let's take a moment to talk about why since it's probably going to be the most interesting to read.

I don't hate the canon setup for the crushes, but also I don't think that they're the ideal crushes. When it comes to romance stories, you want to design your love interests around each other. You want them to feel special and like they bring something unique to the table. Canon doesn't really give us that. There's nothing all that special about Adrien that makes him feel like the person that Marinette would be drawn to above all others. Same goes for Chat Noir and Ladybug, but we'll get to them in a second.

What is Marinette's biggest struggle? Her role as Ladybug.

Who is her main support in that role for most of the show? Chat Noir.

Who is her main support on the civilian side even before the reveal? Alya.

So why is Marinette's crush on Adrien and not Chat Noir? I don't know. It's the lesser setup by far and that goes beyond just the logic elements of who it makes the most sense for her to fall in love with. A lot of Marinette's worst behavior actually feels justified in a reverse crush setup, allowing you to write her without major changes to her character.

For example, Marinette keeping a chest of gifts for Adrien is kind of pathetic. She's friends with Adrien and she gives her friends gifts all the time, why can't she give him gifts, too? Reverse the crushes and suddenly this behavior makes perfect sense. Marinette isn't storing up gifts because of overblown fears of rejection. She's storing up gifts for legitimate fears about how her partner will explain these random gifts, thereby risking his identity, meaning that she has a sold argument for waiting until the time is right (post reveal) to give them to him.

There's also the legitimate fear that confessing her love could ruin their dynamic and put Paris at risk. Keeping her feelings to herself is now an act of self-sacrifice and not just an act of nerves. Basically everything about Marinette's hesitance just makes so much more sense if it's on the hero side.

But what about Adrien? How does this fix him?

I love the idea of our male romantic lead falling for our female lead because she's bold and brave, but it honestly doesn't fit Adrien's character. He is surrounded by powerful, confrontational women. Nathalie, Chloe, Kagami, Amilie, Audrey, and Tomoe are all no-nonsense women who get what they want. This means that Ladybug doesn't bring something unique to his life. She fits the standard mold. Adrien falling in love with her after she talks down Hawkmoth doesn't feel like the right choice for his character because it doesn't feel like something he'd be wildly impressed by.

Meanwhile, Marinette is shown to be a generally wonderful friend. She cares about others and will do what she can to make them feel welcome and accepted. That's a much more unique thing for Adrien to experience. Think about the umbrella scenes and imagine if it was Marinette apologizing. Marinette owning that she treated him poorly and asking his forgiveness. How often do you think Adrien gets moments like that? Doesn't it make more sense for something like that to make his heart flutter?

We see Marinette doing things like making banners to celebrate her friends (Timebreaker) and making sure everyone feels included (Reflekta). Imagine her giving Adrien that kind of treatment because it's just who Marinette is. She shows up to his fencing matches to cheer him on. Brings him his favorite snacks as a treat just because, surrounding this poor boy in honest, genuine love and support. Add in respect, too, and he'd be a goner because those are the things that he's not getting anywhere else! The things that make Marinette unique.

This brings us to our new civilian dynamic. In canon, it's Marinette failing to confess in ever more spectacular ways as Alya tries and fails to help. In a reverse crush setup where everyone is friends without gender barriers, it's things like Adrien coming up with his canon confessions and then watching Alya and Nino react with genuine horror because, dude, you're going to give her a panic attack! No! Bad kitty! Stop that! No confessions until you come up with a plan that we approve of and read at least five books of dating advice because holy shit did homeschooling do you dirty in this area!

Then, while Adrien is working to learn how dating works, he learns that Marinette is in love with Chat Noir and, oh no! He thinks she's into his public persona, totally unaware that she knows the real Chat Noir and loves his dorky self. So he tries to emulate his sexy alter ego while Nino and Alya suffer and Marinette is just generally confused because she doesn't think of Chat Noir like that, so she doesn't even notice what Adrien is doing.

This also adds a nice mitigating factor to Adrien's unwillingness to give up even though it's pretty clear that Marinette isn't interested in his civilian self. If he knows that she loves him, then his persistence is less concerning and more comedic. It's not that he can't take a no, it's that he honestly knows with 100% certainty that the answer is NOT no because she's told him that to his face. He just needs her to realize that the guy she's in love with is right here, ready and willing!

The potential for comedy is just so much more broad and so much less mean spirited because Marinette has none of Adrien's reserved nature, so her friends would totally know about her massive "celebrity crush". Adrien comes over for school projects and just stares longingly at her Chat Noir posters, wishing he could tell her his secret, but knowing that he can't.

In my world, that is so much more fun than canon's setup where Marinette has no reason to hope. I also wouldn't draw the crushes out anywhere near as long as canon did. I like getting couples together in the mid-game. It's a nice early plot to hook you in, but defeating the villain is the end game, so we don't need to draw the romance out that long. Romance isn't that special. It's not all that different from an arc about two characters becoming friends.

That's far from the only major change I'd make to shape canon into my ideal version, but it is the probably the change that I love the most. It's also the change that requires the least context to explain, so there you go!

[libellule-saphique]

Miraculous Season 5: Luka & Kagami's Wasted Potential

If this show wasn't already bad enough.........

Like everything else, it disappoints me that the writers of this show are lazy when it comes to additional character development essentially in the love rivals

but who am I kidding? I knew what to expect when Thomas quite literally said Gabriel was redeemable after torturing all of Paris for years simply because he wants his wife back actively neglecting & abusing his son in the process while in the same breath saying Chloe is beyond redemption and she's a teenage girl who's dad couldn't give a rat's ass about her and spoils her crazy to get her off his back 24/7 and her mom who wants nothing to do with her verbally & mentally abuses her with the only real people who like her to the slightest and tolerate her are Sabrina and Armand who's practically her butler. The double comparison and double standard is wild but nonetheless not surprising seeing how the show's narrative is already bias when it comes down to Adrien & Marinette's character treatment. (the misogyny and racism is loud as hell)

Season 4 of Miraculous was already beginning to go downhill and season 5 simply added icing on the cake. To be honest I was partly excited to see the relationship dynamic within the love rival relationships, Lukanette & Adrigami at the start of season 4 because it was different from the repetitive love square and we got to see our two main leads interact with other characters in a romantic light other than themselves only to end before they could really start. It was a slap in the face and a huge cut from some possible major character development and love square progress. But the writers are so afraid of change and cant manage to make a good progressive storyline and felt that Luka & Kagami were too much of a threat to their Love Square that could've heavily improved because of them in the first place. Some episodes could've been focused on friendships between the love rivals and Marinette & Adrien. But ofc we get the same monotonous plotline mid season 3 to the beginning of season 4 Adrien & Kagami spend more time together, Marinette is conflicted and overwhelmed with feelings, Luka is there for emotional support (which felt like his sole purpose in earlier episodes even until now) Kagami is constantly frustrated by Adrien's indecisiveness, passiveness, and hesitance, etc, etc whatever and it continues all until they break up.

Then out of the wood works, we get Adrien realizing he has feelings for Marinette despite her being quote on quote "just a friend" 3-4 seasons straight. Despite. Marinette putting a hold on relationships ever since Lukanette's breakup and the fact that Monarch is still on the prowl and her responsibilities as a hero, because lets be honest if Ladybug/Marinette doesn't tend to Paris & Monarch no one else will, (Chat Noir definitely won't) the writers still say "hey lets tend to and coddle Adrien's feelings bc now he likes her more than "just a friend" and it doesn't matter how Marinette feels, doesn't matter if she's not ready for a relationship even though she's made that clear on multiple occasions after her and Luka's breakup bc at the end of day what we learn is what we already know "Adrien's feelings are more important than Marinette's overall treatment as the female protagonist and discomfort."

And what do you ask happens to the love rivals? Of course! the writers have to find a way to string them away from the complicated love square

Instead we get Luka shipped off with his dad on a world tour and Kagami paired with Felix (which........also doesn't feel right and for what reason did this have to happen?) Felix is the same guy who quite literally SH Ladybug, but ok? the writers feel like it makes sense to pair Kagami with this guy? She seems to like him for the same reasons her and Adrien's relationship took so long to work out in the first place. I don't even know what she saw in him, he's so bland, so passive, and everyone characterizes him as a "perfect cinnamon catboy who's abused and needs emotional support leaning on our main female lead who's not responsible for his baggage at all but hey! Everything is Marinette's responsibility after all right? They decide to give Felix more purpose in the show as Felix's a more assertive, serious, proactive version of Adrien and that's exactly what Kagami's looking for but I honestly think that it's a cop out for the possible unresolved feelings she had/has for Adrien (though he doesn't deserve her anyway) . It's like the show's message when it comes to romance and love is the only way to be genuinely happy is in a relationship which is so beyond fucked up, and its a overall bad message to kids and teens, no one in the show learns to love themselves and learn themselves first, Kagami would be simply fine without any relationship I can say the same for many other characters especially Marinette & Adrien. Why are romantic relationships needed to began with?

Season 5 is a prime example of the garbage dump Miraculous has become over the years and the poor writing decisions the writers have made.

[msweebyness]

MiracOlympus- Formal Introduction

Howdy, ya'll! Here's the formal introduction to the characters from my new AU! The background is pretty simple, the Miraculous characters are the Gods from Ancient Greece! Enjoy! @imsparky2002 @artzychic27

Adrien:

(Zeus)

God of the sky, king of Olympus

A much fairer and more compassionate ruler than Zeus

Still a sunshine boi

Doesn't sleep with a bunch of women, actually loyal to his queen

Team Dad

Kim:

(Poseidon)

God of the seas

Crazy-ass Middle Child

Constantly losing his trident

Protective of the ocean and its creatures

Likes challenging the other gods for fun

Nathaniel:

(Hades)

God of the dead, lord of the Underworld

Oldest child, protective of his two younger brothers

Chose the Underworld because he likes peace and quiet

Not the bad guy mortals make him out to be

Very respectful of Marc, i.e. never kidnapped him

Marinette:

(Hera)

Queen of the Gods, goddess of marriage and family

ROCKS that peacock aesthetic

Acts more like a team mom than a queen

Doesn't try to murder any other girl who's interested in Adrien

Likes to ship people with Rose

Mylene:

(Demeter)

Goddess of the Harvest

Loving and nurturing, makes sure mortals are taken care of

Protective of Marc, her younger brother

VERY passionate about the environment

Mediates conflicts on Olympus

Sabrina:

(Hestia)

Goddess of the home and hearth

Gentlest and humblest of the Gods

Gave up her throne for Nino, since she never really wanted it

Has a hard time saying no

Amazing cook

Kagami:

(Ares)

Goddess of war

Believes in honor and fighting for a worthy cause

Has never lost a battle

Rides a kickass motorcycle

Always armed, just in case

Rose:

(Aphrodite)

Goddess of love and beauty

Supportive of all sexual identities, ACE PEOPLE ARE VALID

World's biggest shipper

Very humble about her looks

Adores Juleka beyond all sense of reason

Juleka:

(Artemis)

Goddess of the hunt and the forest

Shy, prefers to spend time with animals

Always has her bow and a quiver of arrows

Gets pissed if you insult her mom or Rose

VERY against abusive relationships

Luka:

(Apollo)

God of music and prophecy

HE CAN SEE THE FU-TURE

Never seen without his lyre

Most beautiful voice in the history of all time

Juleka's wingman

Ivan:

(Hephaestus)

God of fire and blacksmithing

In his forge 70% of the time, Mylene drags him out to take a break and get some sun

Buffest of the gods, but super humble about it

Olympus' repair man

Still a soft, gentle boi

Alix:

(Hermes)

Goddess of travelers, thieves and messengers

Carries messages between all the realms

Has a winged pair of rollerblades

The ultimate prankster

Fastest of all the gods

Max:

(Athena)

God of Wisdom & Innovation

Always accompanied by his owl, Markov

Gets exasperated with the foolish choices of his peers

Actually still good friends with Kim

Always working on something new

Nino:

(Dionysus)

God of Wine & Festivity

Ironically, drinks in moderation

Has so much energy

Plans all parties on Olympus

Shares a passion for theater with Jean

Alya:

(Themis)

Goddess of truth and justice

Oversees all trials conducted on Olympus

WILL call you out if you're acting unfairly

Only Nino can get her to cut loose a little

DESPISES Lila

Chloe:

(Helios)

Goddess of the sun

Has an ego the size of, well, the sun

Nothing can shine as bright as her

Knows EVERYONE'S business, because the sun sees all

Has a soft spot for her sister, the moon goddess

Ondine:

(Amphitrite)

Goddess of sea creatures, queen of the oceans

Rules over the sea with Kim, makes sure he doesn't do anything too reckless

Has tea meet-ups with fellow Goddess Queen, Marinette

Unceasingly bubbly and optimistic

Lila:

(Eris)

Goddess of strife and discord

Thrives on conflict between the other gods

Lies to get her way constantly

Starting wars is a hobby

The others only put up with her because they have to

Keep an eye out for more of this AU! Leave thoughts in the comments and reblogs!

[fuckyeahladybug]

For the "love your fandom" ask game: 3, 5, 16?

A character that fandom has helped you appreciate:

Ooh, that’s a fun one. I have to shout out @flightfoot’s Alya meta here to start. I adore Alya in her own right (hence the profile pic) but sometimes other fans notice details I don’t.

Speaking of details I don’t notice, I love Plagg much more for having read countless fans’ analyses of tiny “throwaway” details in canon that establish his past and hidden depths.

And there’s Nathalie, of course. I would be obsessed if I watched ML alone in my home and never spoke of it to anyone, but all the regular posters in the Gabenath and Eminath tags have my whole heart for their depictions of her character. I have to shout out @stopaskingmetowearthatwig and their comic “Please Take Me Dancing Tonight.”

I’ll be cheeky and say that a specific subclass of @miraculoustakes anons have helped me appreciate a new side to Rolland as well 🫡

Something you see in fics a lot and love:

I’ll read just about anything that has Marinette teach Adrien to cook and/or plays with the idea that he might have lingering trauma/difficulties around food. @sing-in-me-oh-muse does this well. I’m also an absolute sucker for transfem Adrien, though all trans/genderweird Adriens have my whole heart.

I also love every writer who’s bravely asked the question: “What if Adrien, Marinette, Nino, and Alya all lived in the same apartment/building/college dorm and had Roommate Shenanigans?”

A tiny detail in canon that you want more people to appreciate:

I’m not going to be able to find my screenshots rn, but in mid-S5 Adrien and Marinette have a picnic in the same place as the picnic where Gabriel presented Emilie with the peacock brooch and carried her off, presumably to conceive Adrien.

I’ve talked about this before, but the Gabriel/Marinette parallels in the show fascinate me. It goes beyond fashion design and into the ways they relate to the people around them, react to stress, and handle power. It’s always felt fitting that Marinette alone was with him as he made the wish and that their identity reveal was mutual. In Gabriel’s last moments, he and his enemy see each other wholly and completely, as they truly are.

Here’s the game if you want to participate!

[foxwitchaine]

How would you rank the seasons of Miraculous Ladybug?

Buckle up, everyone. Let's do this:

Season 1 - 8/10

I won't lie. The show actually started out pretty good in Season 1. We had unique ideas, a fresh take on the typical love interests you see in these shows, and a whole range of diverse and interesting characters who got their own spotlight episodes. It was where the show shined the best with what it had, so to speak. It did fumble toward the end with Lila's rather messy entrance. But again, I can't blame Ladybug for blowing up like she did.

Could she have handled it better? Of course. Heck, this could have been a plot line where Ladybug has to address the issue of lying through someone who doesn't have any problem lying through her teeth.

Unfortunately, that's not what we got.

Season 2 - 7.5/10

One less half-point for underdelivering on their promises. In our defense, we had no idea what we were in for past Season 2. We got new characters like Luka, who gave characters like Juleka more beyond their archetype. The reveal that Gabriel was Hawk Moth was something we all saw coming, but it set up an amazing conflict for later down the road.

It was also the season where the earliest red flags were being flown.

To be fair, since the show was still, in a sense, "starting out", we gave it the benefit of the doubt. The biggest contention was, naturally, how they handled Chloé Bourgeois.

Put simply, Chloé had potential for an incredible Zuko-style redemption story. Between her mother Audrey abandoning her to pursue her career, along with virtually every adult figure in her life failing her, we could have had an amazing drama where the school bully was forced to confront her worst self and aim to become better. To deserve the Bee Miraculous.

What we got instead was the showrunners sabotaging themselves with how they handled her.

Season 3 - 5/10

The season where it all started to go downhill, starting with the infamous opening episode Chameleon.

There's... no polite way to put it. Season 3 of the show was where the entire foundation, whatever little there was, started falling apart. Marinette suffered so much for so little in this season, it wasn't funny. Add onto other infamous episodes like Ladybug, Chat Blanc, Puppeteer 2, Reflekdoll, and Miracle Queen, it's become crystal clear the show is nothing more than a vanity project for the creator. And that was before we got the news they were underpaying their staff (take this with a grain of salt, it's been a while since I read that article).

It was also the season where we started to see the faults in the writing show. From Adrien/Chat Noir refusing to see anything past his nose to the frankly rather illegal handling of Marinette's expulsion to the Lila-centric episodes requiring brain-bending leaps of nonexistent logic. Aside from some rare cool moments (Nathalie fighting three akumas, anyone?), this season was more painful to watch.

Especially with that season finale where Marinette lost Fu.

Seasons 4 & 5 - 2/10

I'm just gonna say it. I stopped watching anything from Miraculous Ladybug when I heard they were gonna akumatize Master Fu in Season 4. So my rating here is based mostly on hearsay from what happened in these two seasons lumped together.

Yes. These seasons pissed me off so much I just lumped them together and called it a day. The writing here is just painful to hear about. Who proofreads the scripts before sending it to the animation team? We have these things called quality checks for a reason.

Ranting aside, we've got more infamous episodes like Gang of Secrets and Derision. I've stated before that I will forever hate that first mentioned episode for how entitled everyone was towards Marinette's secrets. And Derision has to be one of the biggest cases of character assassination by the writing team I've ever seen. Kim isn't one of my favorites, I will admit. But even he didn't deserve the frankly awful backstory ruining what was once a fun (if something of a feather-brained bully) jock character.

Back on the topic of the first mentioned episode, Gang of Secrets was also the point of no return for me regarding Alya's character. Which is a huge shame since Marinette is in dire need of an actual support system instead of shouldering everything on her own. Anyone with half a brain after that would have figured out on their own the lying liar who lies was a lying liar who lies, pardon the repetition. Everything she did afterwards, such as her stint as Rena Furtive, just killed any chances of her undergoing redemption.

Phew, that ended up being more longwinded than I intended. Hope that answers your question.

[ilikekidsshows]

Hello, I have a couple Adrien-related questions I'd love to get your thoughts on, if you don't mind? I'll send the other separately, but for now: 1. In your opinion, how does one differentiate between Adrien's trauma response and him more generally being kind, forgiving, etc.? Not to create a false dichotomy, but I figured you might have some interesting insight.

2. At the end of season 5 Adrien is saying things like "Marinette and I are forever" and "I'm angry at myself for falling short of [her] love". I initially interpreted this as a sign that the boy needs therapy, for his own wellbeing (and I mean that in the best way possible). Things like Plagg responding with "forever!?" told me this was intentional, that the writing team is aware and will address it one day. But now I have my doubts, that it's just supposed to be "romantic." Thoughts?

And I'm sorry, but one more thing to add to my second question: they go out of their way to show things beyond his control preventing him from telling Marinette about London (Marinette interrupting him, Chloe interrupting him, etc.). It seems like the narrative isn't really blaming him, then? For struggling to tell her? Unless I misinterpreted. But regardless this was another thing that, at least initially, led me to believe the writers were intentional in writing his trauma response.

—

I’ll preface this by stating that I’m not the originator of the “Adrien’s fawning is a response to abuse” reading, so this might not cover all there is to it, but here’s my take: it's about how Adrien responds specifically to himself being wronged and how it differs from the way he acts in other conflict situations.

I'll use a comparison to illustrate. Adrien doesn't react to Chloé's behavior the same way he does to Gabriel's and Ladybug's. This is the key difference between thinking “Adrien is just nice/forgiving” and “this reaction has been conditioned through abuse”. Adrien can talk back to Chloé, disagree with her vehemently and will hold his ground even when she doesn't want to budge. Adrien also doesn't make excuses for her because he can admit she's in the wrong. Even when Chloé pushes his boundaries, like trying to kiss him, Adrien can enforce said boundaries by pulling away or pushing her back.

Meanwhile, with Gabriel and Ladybug, Adrien doesn't feel safe in arguing back. He used to do so with Ladybug, but the more unreasonable she's become, the more he backs down. Furthermore, even when he doesn't think the way he’s being treated is right, he makes excuses for Gabriel and Ladybug. “My father is busy”, “you were perfect, as you always are” are things Adrien has to tell himself so that he doesn't have to say: “they don't care about how I feel”. Attempting to enforce his own boundaries with these people almost every time leads to those boundaries being crossed anyway, and that's when Adrien bothers to even try.

As for the second part, I’ve been wondering similar things, and the wisemen of the groupchat have come to the consensus that someone in the writing team knows what they're doing, but they have to go with what Astruc wants in terms of the big picture so that the working environment doesn't become unbearable. Astruc ghosted and blocked a friend he liked so much he based a character on them when they agreed with some criticism of the show. Imagine being employed under this man, and trying to tell him his main romance is toxic and both parties need therapy. Yeah.

There are so many throwaway lines in Miraculous that acknowledge how unhealthy and blatantly wrong the things depicted in it are, that the story at large ignores. It honestly feels like someone on staff is sneaking that stuff in to give the audience at least a minor cue that what they're seeing isn't fine even as Astruc insists it is and carries on like it is. So, basically, someone on the writing team is aware of it, but it still won't ever get addressed because Astruc is ignoring the issues.

As for the “things beyond Adrien's control stopping him” part, that's the metaphorical tower. The writers have called Adrien the “princess in the tower”, and the show gets in on this association with the princess/knight Adrinette imagery. Adrien isn't being blamed for the tower he’s trapped in because Marinette will save him. Can't save him from something that's his own fault, so, for once, Adrien doesn't get victim blamed.