#isilmo

[spruceneedles]

Tar-Telperiën and Isilmo

[anghraine]

Speaking of my undying grudge against Arvedui:

What I really think should have happened (in a better but still possible world) upon the deaths of King Ondoher, Prince Artamir, and Prince Faramir of Gondor:

The Council of Gondor, led by the Steward Pelendur, starts deliberations as to how the succession's going to work.

In Arthedain, someone (or some people) manages to talk Arvedui down. His father (the actual heir of Isildur) isn't prepared to attempt a long-shot claim to the crown of Gondor. And since Númenórean succession law followed strict gender-blind primogeniture*, under the old traditions Princess Fíriel would be the heir of Anárion, not her husband. She claims the throne.

In this better world, Pelendur et al actually give her fair consideration. Tradition matters a lot in Gondor. Númenor matters a lot. They don't want a foreign king, but Fíriel is Gondorian. And historically, bypassing royal princesses has not worked out for their people (most obviously with Tar-Míriel, in a subtler way with Princess Silmariën).

But while they don't want a Pharazôn situation, they also don't want a Herucalmo situation or Gondor being subordinate to Arthedain. They accept Princess Fíriel's claim with a number of stipulations that include her return to Minas Anor and strictly limiting the consort's authority.

After various negotiations, an agreement is reached. Fíriel becomes Gondor's first ruling queen and her son Aranarth succeeds her as heir of Anárion (though he is likely known to history by a regnal Quenya name).

The decision to defer to Númenórean law in Gondor would have far-reaching effects, including on the later succession. In my ideal version, the precedent is not understood as "daughters can inherit if there are no sons available" but as "the eldest living child inherits regardless of gender," as happened in Númenor (this is why Tar-Telperiën inherited despite having a brother).

The crowns of both Gondor and Arthedain would eventually fall to Aranarth, son of Fíriel and Arvedui, more or less uniting the kingdoms. I suspect the preservation of Arthedain would be a greater priority for Gondor in this scenario and it would actually be saved (I think the prophecy of Malbeth the Seer suggests that the salvation of Arthedain was possible, though these are not the specific circumstances he saw).

But canonically, Arthedain and Arnor follow strict male-line descent as much as (canon) Gondor (it's a huge deal to the Northern Dúnedain that their kings and chieftains are all heirs in an unbroken male line). If Gondor adopted the Númenórean system while Arthedain stuck to the patrilineal one, the kingdoms would be split apart the first time that the firstborn child of an heir of Fíriel and Arvedui was a girl (rule of Gondor going to the firstborn and rule of Arthedain going to her eldest brother). But it may be that Arthedain's traditions also changed in the AU, in which case it wouldn't be an issue.

This would also mean that the privileging of male-line-only descendants would be way less of a thing, at least in the royal house. The heirship would pass through oldest surviving children regardless of whether they were male or not, so even if the world was still similar enough that the same people even exist by the end of the Third Age, male-line-only heirs would not have seniority in this AU. The heir of Anárion and Isildur by the time of the War of the Ring could easily be ... like, Halbarad.

(Obviously there are all sorts of other consequences, too! But those are the ones that entertain me the most.)

---

*To be more specific, Númenórean succession law followed strict gender-blind primogeniture after the (relatively) early king Tar-Aldarion. Aldarion instituted the change to allow his daughter Ancalimë to inherit and (for whatever reason) to give elder children preference over younger ones without regard to gender. Thus, as mentioned above, Tar-Telperiën received the scepter rather than her younger brother Isilmo. Tolkien noted that if Tar-Aldarion's law had been followed from the beginning, the lords of Andúnië would have been the royal family, since their foremother, Princess Silmariën, was the firstborn.

[arofili]

@secondageweek day two | the race of men | tar-telperiën

She was the second Ruling Queen of Númenor. She was long-lived (for the women of the Númenóreans had the longer life, or laid down their lives less easily), and she would wed with no man. Therefore after her day the sceptre passed to Minastir; he was the son of Isilmo, the second child of Tar-Súrion. Tar-Telperiën was born in the year 1320; she ruled for 175 years, until 1731, and died in that same year.

—Unfinished Tales, “The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor”

[edennill]

I know youn know plenty about Númenor and I have a question.

Where did Tar-Minastir come from? The previous queen was unwed, so what was he? Brother, nephew...?

Thank you!

Wow, I'm flattered to apparently be considered the resident expert on Númenor, thank you for asking :)

As for the answer, he was the son of her younger brother Isilmo.

[sesamenom]

Tolkien only mentions people's absent mothers or wives if they're dead

...so about that:

dead, named

miriel

elenwe

luthien

nimloth (of doriath)

morwen

rian

nienor

aerin

finduilas [girlfriend]

eilinel [girlfriend]

arwen

theodwyn

tar-miriel

beruthiel

finduilas (of gondor)

primula

gilraen

elfhild

assumed eventually dead (mortal), named

adanel

andreth [girlfriend]

arachon

beldis

emeldir

zimrahin

gildis

gloredhel

hareth

hiril

meleth

elros' wife

tar-vanimelde

tar-ancalime

silmarien

almarian

erendis

ailinel

lindorie

inzilbeth

firiel

rian (of gondor)

morwen (of gondor)

morwen (of the dunedain)

ivorwen

not dead (as of last mention), named

tatie

nerdanel

indis

anaire

earwen

aredhel

idril

iminye

ilwen

meril [existence uncertain]

amarie [fiancee]

eldalote

enelye

galadriel

ungoliant

fluithin [existence uncertain]

varda

yavanna

vana

nessa

vaire

este

uinen

goldberry

melian

celebrian

elwing

lothiriel

eowyn

nimrodel (of lorien) [fiancee]

adamanta

lalia

eglantine

esmeralda

rosamunda

diamond

belladonna

donnamira

mirabella

belba

camellia

laura

pansy

linda

lobelia

chica

rosa

gilly

mimosa

prisca

dora

peony

tanta

lily

estella

alfrida

dina

cora

adaldrida

lavender

amethyst

ruby

sapphire

jessamine

gerda

druda

primrose

hilda

ivy

berylla

malva

hanna

salvia

menelgida

asphodel

nina

bell

marigold

rose (other one)

rose

lily (other one)

elanor

cwen

naimi

vaire (of tol eressea)

unnamed

nerdanel's mom

maglor's spouse [gender uncertain]

caranthir's spouse [gender uncertain]

celebrimbor's mom

ilion's wife

indis' mom

fingon's possible wife [existence disputed]

finduilas' mom

earwen's mom

denethor (of the laiquendi)'s mom

celeborn's first wife/amroth's mom [existence uncertain]

saeros' mom

cirdan's mom [existence disputed]

celeborn's mom

galadhon's mom

thranduil's mom

legolas' mom

nimloth (of doriath)'s mom

wives of beor, baran, belen, boron, baranor, beldir, boromir (of the beorians), bregor, beren (other one), bregolas, baragund, belegund

anduir's mom

amdir's wife/amroth's mom [existence uncertain]

wives of marach, imlach, magor, hathol, haldan, halmir, hundar, hunthor, haldad, haldar

bor's wife

ulfang's wife

gorlim's mom

dorlas' wife

aerin's mom

wives of vardamir, tar-amandil, nolondil, veantur, tar-elendil, earendur, axantur, hatholdir, caliondo, cemendur, hallatan, tar-anarion, tar-surion, isilmo, tar-minastir, tar-ciryatan, tar-atanamir, tar-ancalimon, tar-telemmaite, tar-alcarin, tar-calmacil, tar-ardamin, ar-adunakhor, ar-zimrathon, ar-sakalthor, tar-palantir, tar-gimilkhad

wives of valandil, earendur (second one), numendil, amandil, elendil, isildur, anarion, valandil, meneldil, eldacar, arantar, tarcil, tarondor, valandur, elendur, earendur (third one), amlaith, beleg, mallor, celepharn, celebrindor, malvegil, argeleb I, arveleg I, araphor, argeleb II, araval, araphant, aranarth, arahel, aranuir, aravir, aragorn I, araglas, arahad I, aragost, aravorn, arahad II, arassuil, arathorn I, argonui, arador,

wives of cemendur, earendil (of gondor), anardil, ostoher, tarostar, turambar (of gondor), atanatar I, siriondil, tarciryan, earnil I, ciryandil, ciryaher, calmacil, romendacil II, calimehtar, vidugavia, castamir, aldamir, hyarmendacil II, telemnar, minastan, tarondor, telumehtar, narmacil II, arciryas, calimehtar (other one), calimmacil, ondoher, siriondil (other one), earnil II

wives of marhari, marhwini, forthwini, frumgar, fram, leod, eorl, brego (of rohan), aldor, frea, freawine, freca, goldwine, deor, helm, hild, frealaf, brytta, walda, folcwine, fengel

wives of pelendur, vorondil, mardil, eradan, herion, belegorn, hurin I (of gondor), turin I (of gondor), hador (of gondor), barahir (of gondor), boromir (other one of gondor), cirion, hallas, hurin II, belecthor I, orodreth (of gondor), egalmoth (of gondor), beren (of gondor), beregond (other one), belecthor II, thorondir, turin II, turgon (of gondor), ecthelion II (of gondor)

wives of adrahil I, galador, agalahad, angelimir, adrahil II, elphir, imrahil

smeagol's grandmother

ibal's mom

beorn's wife [mortality uncertain]

ghan's wife

wives of girion, bard, bain, brand, bard II

wives of baranor (of gondor), beregond, borlas, berelach II

grima's mother

dunhere's mother

aghan's mother

mim's wife

wives of durin I, durin II, durin III, durin IV, durin V, durin VI, nain I, thrain I, thorin I, gloin (other one), oin (other one), nain II, dain I, borin, thror, thrain, gror, nain, farin, fundin, groin, dain II, gloin, thorin III

isengrim II's wife [mortality uncertain]

wives of isumbras III, ferumbras II, fortinbras I, isumbras IV, isumbold, isembard, adalgrim, flambard, sisigmond, adelard, ferdinand

wives of odo, olo, polo, ponto, dudo, adalgar, jago, gundahad, vigo, bosco

wives of gorhendad, sadoc, saradas, orgulas, marmadas, hamfast, wiseman, holman, cottar, hobson, holman, andwise, halfred, frodo (gardner), holfast

wives of woden, heden, eoh, tulkastor

if we include implied mortality (orange), we have our totals of:

total named: 129

dead, named: 43 not dead, named: 86

total unnamed: 273

probably dead, unnamed: 230 not dead, unnamed: 43

obviously the eventual mortality of the gazillion numenoreans does impact these numbers quite a bit, but it still does stand that more of the unnamed mothers/wives are dead than the named ones (84% vs 33%)

---

other notes:

orange = implied eventual death due to mortality at some point up to the end of the TA

[gender uncertain], [girlfriend], and [fiancee] characters were counted as wives

[existence uncertain] and [existence disputed] characters were included

[mortality uncertain] characters were counted as not dead

actually not only is Legolas’s mother still alive, post-quest she was like ‘Aragorn I’m your mum now’ and Aragorn was like ‘that’s kind of you but no need’ and she was like ‘NO. I AM YOUR MUM NOW.’

& Legolas was solemnly like ‘this means we are brothers now. I take my brotherly responsibilities very seriously. Family game night is on Tuesdays.’

that’s what happened.

[444names]

quenya names BUT excluding "h" and "c"

Ainorian Alalvinya Alambarto Alandor Alandorion Alands Alantir Alaquendil Aldamenië Aldamillion Aldamo Aldamíron Aldarossom Almare Almarindas Alqualondo Alquerond Altáriel Amaitë Amanwe Amanwendis Amanwion Ambarillë Ambaráto Ambengwer Amberingday Analtári Anatalë Anatan Anaturmendi Anded Andelina Angarlando Antal Antalya Aoriando Arambë Aranta Arantë Aranwion Arass Arassë Ardamírondë Ardil Arfanga Arfangaina Arfanyaran Arfanyë Argollo Arilondo Artan Artanissë Artar Arver Atanaxarted Atanaxarto Atanië Atarion Atter Atters Aulen Aulendas Aulëonna Aurel Aureldo Aurelinded Auronwë Aurossom Aurëa Avalindelië Avanyar Beare Beastar Beasters Beastle Beloved Belovern Belovernië Blest Blester Blesters Briderel Deemenos Departan Dwardil Dwellië Eastamillë Eastamos Easterful Easternien Eastirillë Eastlandië Eastlantë Elatan Elatar Eldannards Eldano Eldil Elemberian Elendili Elendómen Elepta Elerien Eleriner Elerondis Elerondon Eleronwë Elerostir Elossë Elostal Elron Elrondar Elrondil Elrondili Elrondië Elvenlandi Endil Endorian Enelya Envinyantur Envinyarmen Eorlinderen Eorlindórë Erenandur Erester Erulindelë Eruman Erumanderi Erundalómëa Erunded Estaran Esternendil Estirnë Estle Eären Faitë Falandili Falastlands Falmarië Fanyandol Fanyanna Fanyel Finderenan Findor Finwa Finwë Firil Firin Firion Firior Firious Flanturi Follonda Foresta Forondil Forondo Forondor Foronta Forsakenië Fragranwion Fragranyë Fragranórië Fragras Friel Fëanoring Fírië Garlanded Gloomylanta Glorin Goldóreanor Goldórenan Golmo Golondil Granwe Granwendil Ilmarenan Ilmarin Ilmarindalf Ilmarë Ilqualondas Ilwarrossë Indor Ingday Ingilótë Ingollondil Ingwers Inlandē Inlantë Irina Ironto Isilmarin Isilmo Isilótë Journien Kingoldi Kingwers Laili Lalvinórë Lalwendelë Lalwendur Lalwendónë Lambaras Lastlantë Laurelindo Lauren Legendis Lessed Lester Lindaril Lindë Lindónë Lindóreat Lingold Linquendor Linquë Londi London Londor Londë Lungoldo Lungolmon Luvaili Lámaquenna Lómëa Lúnatarassë Lúnatárion Maitë Malie Mandorian Mandur Manyands Marillë Marinquë Mastar Meldar Melduri Mendiéva Meneldo Meneldol Menelmarin Menië Minan Minasta Minastar Mindónë Minya Minyarantar Minyarnal Minórendië Minóriel Minórë Mistarien Mistarmends Mittal Mittarien Mondissë Mondë Mormarillë Mornendil Mornendur Mortan Mámaquendil Mámarin Mámasund Mírimë Mírondil Mírëa Naldalie Nands Narilond Nelmo Nendelë Nendur Nendë Nendómendië Nildóriner Nindarin Ninder Ninderendas Nindë Ninquendië Noldië Noldór Nolondië Norney Nyárantar Nísilmarë Nísindië Nísiner Númenelmar Núnatárion Oiolondi Oiolondo Olóriel Onnamírondi Ontal Onyamarin Onyando Onyaranwë Onyarmendis Orney Orondië Partanorin Partar Parto Pattar Patter Patterns Pelendi Pelórië Pelótë Pering Polderer Powerful Poweror Prefëanor Quelórindë Quendis Quendur Quendóren Quennamírëa Quest Questarna Radiands Ramba Raurelië Raurossë Rindië Roari Roaril Rombaráto Rondi Russa Rámarium Salmari Salmarion Sildë Siling Silma Silmarian Silmarillo Silmarion Silmarist Silmarë Silómë Silótë Siner Sirillië Sirina Siring Siriondo Sirioni Sorondë Sorondëa Spider Spideriel Staranwendi Strin Sunds Taran Tarantar Taras Tariel Tarious Tarium Tarmendë Tatan Tatanis Tatanáro Tatar Tatya Tatyamards Tatyando Tatyar Taurefindor Taurondi Taurëa Telendë Telerostar Telessë Telmar Telperian Telperion Telumenië Tengolder Tindo Tindor Tindos Tinta Tintallower Towed Tumanel Tumbartal Turmerrína Twilli Tyelerondi Tyelperiand Túrossom Ulmondo Umbart Umbarómerin Ungoldórë Valairond Valalwen Valando Valanduinë Valantalda Valariel Valaring Valarië Valaron Valass Valimos Valings Valiéva Valië Vallantur Valley Vallë Verns Vinya Vinyaranwë Vinóreation Vorondo Vëanorian Wardil Welley Westle Willë Wilwardiand Women Womendelë Womentáriel Wordsmanwen Yavalindë Yavamar Yavanis Yested Yávienyantë Yénon Yénonórë Ñgoldi Ñoldor Ósaring

[homura507]

Decrypt! Sauron's secret to maintaining high-intensity work for a long time: a large cup of bubble tea, standard sugar, no ice.

(Ears are dangling because its so tasty.

[tupacz]

Witchking of Angmar and Khamul the Easterling in non-wraith version / as a living people Two Nazguls who rule when Sauron “closes his eye” One of them rule in Minas Morgul, second in Dol Guldur One of them is narcissist sorcerer&warrior (later he unblock third class: warlock), second is seriously warrior&ranger I ship them HC: Witchking of Angmar was Isilmo, Man of Numenor and prince of the House of Elros. He took the Ring of Power when he was near of death (old age). He took it to protect his son, Tar-Minastir from Sauron

[saelmeril]

Posted a few more chapters of The Moon Eternal. It’s a relatively short fanfic in the form of the diary of Tar-Telperiën’s brother, Isilmo, a dutiful and patriotic prince who once happened to acquire a ring of Sauron’s crafting. In other words, an origin story of a Nazgûl.

And my old drawing of the main character.

Thank you to @fortuitousraven for beta-reading!

[novasiri]

All the finished art from the stream! Three costumes and a birthday boy!

[tarninausta]

@secondageweek ⁕ day 2: the race of men; tar-telperien

[Tar-Telperien] was the second Ruling Queen of Númenor. She was long-lived (for the women of the Númenóreans had the longer life, or laid down their lives less easily), and she would wed with no man. Therefore after her day the sceptre passed to Minastir; he was the son of Isilmo, the second child of Tar-Súrion. Tar-Telperien was born in the year 1320; she ruled for 175 years, until 1731, and died in that same year.

-J.R.R. Tolkien, Unfinished Tales, “The Line of Elros: Kings of Numenor“

[arofili]

the line of elros ♚ royalty of númenor ♚ headcanon disclaimer

          The life of Tar-Súrion, son of Tar-Anárion and the ninth King of Númenor, was fated to be overshadowed by his female relatives. Like his father, Súrion was mild-mannered, though he took after his mother’s bookish tendencies and became a scholar. He married Meletya, the daughter of one of his grandmother Ancalimë’s handmaidens, and was happy to let her direct his rule. Tári-Meletya did not take the Tar prefix of other strong-willed queens, preferring a façade of distance from the crown’s policies, but it was known to all that she was the one who ruled Númenor in truth while her husband was King.           Tári-Meletya and Tar-Súrion had two children: a daughter, Telperiën, and a son, Isilmo. Isilmo was the younger sibling, and unlike his elder sister had no interest in politics. He instead turned his focus to the stars, laboring to divine their meaning and effects on those below, modeling himself after his ancestor Tar-Meneldur Elentirmo. Isilmo wed Almárëa, a priestess of Eru Ilúvatar upon Meneltarma, and together they had one son, Minastir.           In her youth Telperiën was fascinated by the chemical makeup of the world, and studied alchemy at the royal university, but as she grew older she became more and more interested in the art of ruling. She was proud and willful like her mother and her ancestress Tar-Ancalimë, and with Tári-Meletya’s guidance she would become the second Ruling Queen of Númenor. Tar-Telperiën refused to wed, preferring the company of women, and did not interfere with the troubles of the mainland. She did not, as had all rulers prior to her, surrender the scepter a few years before mortality claimed her, instead waiting until she was on her deathbed to pass inheritance to her nephew Tar-Minastir.

[anghraine]

I’ve thought about Arvedui’s claim to the throne of Gondor a ... lot over the years, but to this day, I’m not quite sure what Tolkien was doing with it.

The claim as heir of Isildur is one thing: either Isildur forsook Gondor dynastically or didn’t. It’s debatable but the question is clear.

The claim through Fíriel, though, is strange. Both Gondor and Arnor/Arthedain have operated under strict male-line inheritance for their entire existences. Arvedui uses the law of Númenor, which allowed women to inherit independently, as a precedent to argue that the custom should be overturned (good) and therefore he should receive the crown as Fíriel’s husband (wait, what?). 

Númenórean law is unambiguous on this point. Whatever else Tar-Aldarion may have been, his law made daughters fully equal heirs in their own right. Tar-Ancalimë was the ruler of Númenor (and not her husband Hallacar—God forbid). Tar-Telperiën was ruler, rather than her younger brother Isilmo. Tar-Vanimeldë’s husband did rule through her and then claimed the throne through his marriage to her—and he was counted a usurper. The same but worse happened with the rightful queen Tar-Míriel and the usurper Ar-Pharazôn. 

Like. Arvedui is basically arguing that what happened with Vanimeldë/Alcarin and Míriel was not only acceptable but the way things worked in Númenor generally, and how they should work in Gondor.

?????????

[ao3feed-silvergifting]

音书

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/2Qf39Ap

by SashkaLu1777

索伦和安格玛巫王的关系从第二纪元的亲密变成了第三纪元的疏远，但他们依然信任彼此。这是注定的，索伦需要一个有野心、能独立的左膀右臂，而有野心、能独立的安格玛巫王即使感激索伦，也终究会像风筝一样飘远。

Words: 29499, Chapters: 7/?, Language: 中文-普通话 國語

Series: Part 13 of Witch-King Of Angmar: Third Age

Fandoms: The Lord of the Rings - J. R. R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion and other histories of Middle-Earth - J. R. R. Tolkien

Rating: Not Rated

Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply

Categories: F/M, M/M

Characters: Sauron | Mairon, Witch-King of Angmar, Nazgûl, Original Female Character(s), Fíriel of Gondor, Eärnur (Tolkien), Glorfindel (Tolkien), Isilmo (Tolkien), The Mouth of Sauron, Boromir (Steward of Gondor), Celebrimbor | Telperinquar

Relationships: Sauron | Mairon/Witch-King Of Angmar, Witch-King of Angmar/Fíriel of Gondor, Arvedui/Fíriel of Gondor, Tar-Telperiën/Witch-King of Angmar, Witch-King of Angmar/Eärnur (Tolkien), Mouth of Sauron/Sauron | Mairon, Celebrimbor | Telperinquar/Sauron | Mairon

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/2Qf39Ap

[homura507]

Who took the chance to touch sauron's ass?

[tupacz]

Hello! Time for the first post here. Here are the Nazguls when they are looking for the Shire. I have some headcanons for them all. Maybe later I will write about them.  Monthly challenge from k_artystyczny from Instagram