#iroh is not a flawless saint

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

I don't think Iroh was wrong for not trying to make Zuko feel sympathy for Azula during the show since there was no way of reaching her while Ozai was still in power and any hesitation on his or Zuko's part would lead to them being in chains or dead.

But no, Iroh doesn't have a model for treating two kids fairly, and to be quite honest, there is a strong argument that Iroh never cared for Azula since he viewed her an obstacle to Zuko to getting Ozai's love, and then, after his redemption arc, to becoming the savior of the Fire Nation.

i know i literally just wrote a post about it, but it’s just earth-shattering to me that… ok, so even with all the kindness and love he offers zuko, iroh still regards parenting two or more children still as a matter of showing favouritism, right? it wasn’t as if he tried to even be polite or sympathetic towards azula; he encouraged zuko to see her as an obstacle to overcome, he validated those feelings of resentment and jealousy without also ever trying to encourage him to look at her sympathetically, without an “I understand, but remember your sister has had a difficult journey too,” without encouraging the sympathy & compassion required to navigate sibling conflict, and ultimately fuelled that competitive sibling dynamic for the worse.

and for a while i thought - like a lot of people - that was weird. probably motivated by misogyny on some level, but I didn’t really get it for the longest time, and just thought it was a weird oversight of the writers for the sake of “haha this 14 year old girl most terrifying thing ever” comedy - which don’t get me wrong, is funny, but they leaned into it a little too much (at the expense of characterful writing).

but actually all iroh is doing is mirroring literally every parental relationship in the fire nation royal family. he’s showing blatant favouritism to one child and disregarding the other. just like ozai did to his children, just like it’s implied azulon did to his children, (and I would not be surprised if sozin was the same in this regard either). there’s a key difference in that he shows genuine love, support, & care for zuko, but ultimately iroh still wants to give his favoured child everything. iroh still wants zuko to seize the crown, and in order to do that he needs to be able to take down azula without hesitation. there’s no space for mediation there. it’s one or the other, in his mind.

like, it just hit me, that i honestly don’t think iroh has a model for treating two kids fairly, and it might literally just be outside of his understanding. I don’t know if he can conceive of a relationship in the royal family not being marred by competitiveness and toxic rivalry, with one having the crown and the other scrambling for scraps. it’s always been like that. like he literally can’t imagine it.

and yes that’s a deep failing on his part, his inability to even show a scrap of sympathy for azula is really damning, but oh god it just points to how deeply fucked up the fire nation royal family is. nobody has any clue what a healthy relationship between two (or more) siblings looks like.

[balanceoflightanddark]

Iroh: The Missed Opportunity

I will be the first to admit it: I am not the biggest fan of Iroh. Or rather, I'm not the biggest fan of how he is presented in the franchise nor by anyone who insists that he was a saint that could do no wrong.

Cause he did do wrong. He was the man responsible for behind the bloody 600-Day Siege of Ba Sing Se. Even if he ultimately relented, that was only when his son was killed and after he had waged a bloody campaign that spread great suffering throughout the Earth Kingdom. It's a black mark against him that calls into question whether or not he's really as saintly as the series (at least post Book 1) makes him out to be. It especially calls into question his position as Zuko's mentor and whether or not he's truly the person who should be guiding him on the path of redemption.

Which...ironically should've been something that made him more fascinating than the jolly old uncle people envision him as.

Think about it: if Iroh was a warmongering general, that would bring into question almost all his advice to Zuko. What experiences colored his perception and wisdom, and how that would affect his nephew who idolizes him. It would bring into question Zuko's own morality and redemption arc if he's basing himself so much on Iroh's approval, a man who not too long ago was fighting for the Fire Nation. Sure, there's no doubt Iroh would want to help Zuko, but his instincts as a general and manipulations into preparing his nephew for the role of Fire Lord would interfere with what Zuko needs now.

The idea of a flawed father figure isn't a new one, but there's a reason it has a lot of staying power. For example: Long John Silver from Treasure Island is a pirate, yes, but his mentor figure to Jim Hawkins along with their dynamic was what made him an enduring character. Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars kept vital information from Luke about his father which strains his relationship with him, but it's implied he was suffering from PTSD and was having issues with the truth himself. Lord Shimura from Ghost of Tsushima genuinely cares about Jin's wellbeing, but their clashing ideologies leads their relationship to tragedy.

You can make flawed father characters work. And that's how Iroh should've been written. There should've been more doubt. Of what advice and wisdom is coming from a place of genuine heart or from a past of conquest. And Zuko blindly accepting his every word, but then learning to forge his own path would've made for a much stronger redemption arc instead of being handheld the whole way through. Especially since it's that craving for acceptance which led to his toxic relationship with Ozai in the first place.

Instead, Iroh was turned into a saint, a flawless figure. The general forgotten in favor of the goofy wise uncle. And so too was any nuance that came from his character.

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Why Iroh is not a Good Judge of Azula's Redeemability

One of the fiercest debates in Avatar fandom is whether or not to take Iroh’s words and actions towards Azula as proof of Azula irredeemability. 

For those who think that Azula is irredeemable point to stuff like, “She’s crazy and needs to go down,” or the fact that there was never any indication that he ever tried to reason with her, even when he tried reasoning with war criminals (the Rough Rhinos), someone who was literally going destroy a fundamental aspect of reality (Zhao), and someone who was attempting to rob him at knifepoint (Tycho), as proof that he knew that Azula was fundamentally broken, or that, after he returned from his wandering to the palace, he realized that Azula was too firmly indoctrinated for him, or anyone other than Azula herself, to save.

Meanwhile, those who think that Azula is redeemable point out that Iroh said, She’s crazy and needs to go down,” only after she had repeatedly tried to hunt him and Zuko down so she could bring them back to the Fire Nation for their treason, had attempted to kill Zuko with lightning, and had almost killed him with blue fire. Not to mention, Iroh had to dissuade Zuko from trying to show Azula compassion because, as long as she and Ozai where in power, there was no way they could convince her to change her path, and so to show her compassion, or attempt to reason with her, would end with him, Zuko, or the both of them dead or in chains.

And in regards to the comics, where he never visits her in the asylum to try and steer her down a better path now that she lost everything, including her power, and thus would be receptive to his teachings? Well, if Iroh was willing to retire to Ba Sing Se and leave the arduous task of reforming the Fire Nation after a hundred years of war and propaganda to his unprepared nephew, who he sees as a surrogate son, why would Iroh be inclined to try and help steer Azula down a better path? 

Especially when, as far as he knows, Azula is getting top-notch medical treatment for her mental illness(es)?

Not to mention, when Zuko was facing push back to take Azula on the search for Ursa, Iroh voiced his support for taking her, pointing out that it might help Azula find inner peace.

And besides, regardless of the above points, those who think Azula is redeemable point out that it would be highly hypocritical for Iroh deny the possibility of Azula reforming when it took Iroh suffering one of the harsh losses imaginable, the lost of a child, in combination with the White Lotus, who are made up of people victimized by Iroh’s actions, or inaction, as Crown Prince and as a general of the Fire Nation, for him to reform and redeem himself well into middle age.

Well, in my opinion, this debate is a moot one because the foundational assumption for both sides, that Iroh actually cared for Azula, at least at some point, is not actually true.

For the Legacy of the Fire Nation, which in-universe is a scrapbook Iroh wrote to share memories and mementos with Zuko, reveals that Iroh never gave up on Azula because he never gave her a chance in the first place, first, due to seeing her as an obstacle to Zuko getting Ozai's favor, and then, after his own redemption arc, an obstacle to Zuko becoming the savior of the Fire Nation that Iroh knew he could become.

In fact, he shows more sympathy and regret in regards to Ozai despite Ozai having decades to change his path as well as being Zuko, Ursa, and Azula's primary abuser.

And Iroh continues to have such negative views about Azula despite the fact that he begrudgingly admits that it took him decades to change his ways, that he only changed after his own son died despite killing countless Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom sons through his warmongering, and that he engaged in imperialism for the same reasons that Azula did: to make his father proud and because he thought it was his destiny.

And to make things worse, the TTRPG, which was created in collaboration with Avatar Studios, reveals that Iroh learned lightning redirection before Lu Ten’s death. So even if Azula was under Ozai's thrall, he could have stopped her abuse, as well as Zuko's in addition to ending the war sooner, by challenging Ozai to Agni Kai after returning from his wandering and killing him by baiting Ozai into shooting lightning and then redirecting it.

“But what about Iroh voicing support for Azula to go on the search for Ursa? That at least proves that Iroh has some care for Azula, right?”

Iroh’s support for Azula going on the search for Ursa could easily be explained by Iroh not wanting to go against the wishes of his beloved nephew, especially since he knows that Azula is the only one with relevant information in regards to Ursa’s location due to Azula burning all the letters in Ozai’s secret trunk save for the “Zuko is a bastard” letter, as well as him knowing that him vocalizing his true thoughts on Azula would make him look unwise and/or cause friction to arise between him and Zuko.

And besides, it is not like Iroh has ever lied to Zuko or others about his true opinions and allegiances before, especially when he, rightfully or wrongfully, thinks it is in everyone’s best interests for him to hide them, right?

“Why do you think that Iroh had a responsibility to challenge Ozai to an Agni Kai and kill him? For don’t you remember that Iroh said, in regards to Zuko asking him to fight Ozai during Sozin’s Comet, that he would not fight Ozai for the throne since history would just see it as two brothers trying to kill each other for power, and so it had to be the Avatar who defeated Ozai?"

My response to that argument is the famous phrase, “The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.”

If Iroh already had his heel-face turn and realized that the war was immoral, wouldn’t the morally righteous thing for him to do is end the war as soon as possible? Especially since he was the person best equipped to stop it considering, unlike the audience, no one in-universe knows when, if ever, the Avatar would return?

Besides, why should we care for Iroh’s opinion in regards to the ramifications of him fighting Ozai for the throne when he, after telling Zuko that he could not fight his own brother to death since history would view it negatively, in the same breath told Zuko to essentially fight his own sister to death for the throne?

So to conclude, why should people care about Iroh's opinion about Azula's (ir)redeemability? Especially when, if people applied his standards to him and Zuko, neither of them would have been able to redeem themselves?

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Yeah, but they are nameless peasants who never interact with the main cast, so they don't matter./s

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Iroh Should Have Taken the Throne After the War, Not Zuko

On the surface, Zuko becoming Fire Lord seems like the cherry on top for his happy ending. 

For him and Mai, who thankfully survived committing treason on Zuko’s behalf, are now able to rebuild their relationship on healthier grounds now that they are no longer under the yoke of Ozai’s regime, he has gained true friends in the form of the Gaang, he finally realized that Iroh was his true father all along and managed to rebuild his relationship with him, his abusive father and toxic at best sister are locked up and unable to hurt him or the ones he loves ever again, he atoned for the most part for helping Azula take over Ba Sing Se, and is now posed to help his nation redeem themselves like he did in regards to himself.

However, if you dig deeper, you start to realize that Zuko’s happy ending is not so happy after all. For he has no blood family that doesn’t hate him and isn’t rightfully locked up except for Iroh, who decided to spend his retirement in Ba Sing Se as a tea maker thousands of miles away from Zuko, and thus is hard to reach in a timely fashion.

The Gaang may be his friends, but they also have their own lives, responsibilities, and families, and so they won’t be able to stay in the Fire Nation for long outside of diplomatic meetings. 

Not to mention the fact that they can never again be just friends like the couple of weeks they spent together fighting to end the war, for Zuko is no longer just their friend, but also Fire Lord of the reforming Fire Nation as well.

And with Ty Lee, until the Kyoshi Warriors become his bodyguards, moving to Kyoshi Island so she can be a Kyoshi Warrior, the only person who he trusts who is constantly in his life is Mai, who loves him dearly, but is ill-equipped to help Zuko deal with his emotional struggles as he continues to heal from his upbringing, let alone the political struggles Zuko will encounter as he attempts to de-Sozinfiy the Fire Nation.

Especially since Mai is a 15 year old teenager who also needs to continue healing from her upbringing and has no relevant experience when it comes to governing.

LIke if we are being honest, Zuko never really had a chance to figure out what truly made him happy. 

For instead of getting time and space to figure out what he wants to be now that the war is over and he is free from Ozai, Zuko instead has to be Fire Lord at least until his heir is of age since Iroh said that it was Zuko who had to the take throne, with Zuko obliging due to wanting to please his real father his sense of honor and responsibility.

All this even though he was only crown prince for two years and the couple of weeks he was in the Fire Nation after his banishment was lifted, which does not bode well for someone trying to reform a nation that has waged an immoral war of conquest for over a hundred years and is so heavily steeped in propaganda to the point that the average person considers airbending demonic.

Hence, why I think the show should have ended with Iroh taking the throne with Zuko as his heir instead of what ended up transpiring.

That way, not only can Zuko continue his crown prince education, an education that was almost certainly interrupted by his banishment, but also so that Zuko has the space to heal and grow without the burden of guiding and reforming the post-war Fire Nation weighing him down. 

Especially since guiding the Fire Nation through the early steps of de-Sozinization would be a struggle for even an experienced monarch, let alone a 16/17 year old with no real experience in governing.

This is because Zuko has no experience, as far as we know, dealing with court politics or running the administrative state of an industrial superpower. 

Zuko has no real connection with his people despite his banishment forcing him to interact with and empathize with Earth Kingdom commoners. Thus, it is hard to see how Zuko can craft policies to help de-Sozinize them, let alone gain their support for such policies outside of the implicit threat of the Avatar. 

Whereas Iroh, despite also being a traitor, was once a beloved war general, and so he can use his status, even if it is heavily diminished by his actions during the end of the war, to get people to buy into his de-Sozinzation policies.

Though I admit that Iroh, like Zuko, has no real connection with Fire Nation commoners.

And Zuko would likely struggle to determine what type of relationship, if any, he would like to have with Ozai and/or Azula after everything that has transpired. And if he chooses to try to interact with them, he is likely to get manipulated like he did in the comics. 

But if he doesn't have the throne, at least the consequences of such manipulation would only be limited to his personal life, and not have dire consequences like what happened with Yu Dao or the lingering threat that an escaped Azula presents in canon to the post-war order.

Not to mention, I think Zuko not getting the throne because he isn't ready for it would send a good message of how just because Zuko redeemed himself doesn't mean that he is now perfect, and thus doesn't need to further heal and grow, as well as avoid giving Zuko the thing he wanted at the start of the show. 

For Zuko in the start of the show wanted the throne for validation, and while after betraying Ozai he never expected it until he met with Iroh in the White Lotus encampment, he ultimately ends up getting what he wanted all along. But if he didn't get the throne, at least for the time being, I think it would better show that Zuko has moved past the throne being (external) validation, as well as strengthen his claim that he didn't betray Ozai for the throne, at least in-universe. 

This is because even though we the audience know that the Zuko betrayed Ozai's regime due to being horrified by Ozai's plan to genocide the Earth Kingdom, the general population doesn't. 

And so it is likely to appear to them, or at least a significant proportion of the Fire Nation population, that Zuko betrayed his father, sister, and nation in order to get the throne he knew he would never get due to not being his father's favorite, even if it meant becoming the Avatar's puppet.

Also, while it is true that the other members of the Gaang all play active roles in the post-war order despite being pre-teens or teenagers themselves, none of them are formerly engaged in politics or ruling outside of Aang, who is the Avatar, and thus sadly can’t delegate his responsibilities to an adult until he is emotionally and mentally ready, a burden that the show and comics took great pains to highlight as tragic.

And while it is true that there have been world leaders who have had successful reigns despite taking power as a pre-teen or teenager, the closest to those rulers in ATLA is Azula, who showcases, among other things, what tends to happen more often than not when you put too much pressure on children to rule, and is a prima facie case for why Iroh, and not Zuko, should have taken the throne at the end of the war.

“Ok, ok, you have some good points, but don’t you remember how Iroh all but said during Sozin’s Comet that he could not take the throne, or even confront Ozai in the case that Aang was missing, since no one trusts him in a position of power except for the White Lotus and the Gaang? So even if Iroh is the most qualified man for the throne, he was right to not take it since the sight of the Dragon of the West on the throne is liable to cause people in the Water Tribes and Earth Kingdom to start another war, or at least launch terrorist attacks, to get him off it.”

Iroh’s point about how no one outside of the White Lotus and the Gaang trusts him in a position of power after decades of war mongering makes sense on the surface, but when you dig deeper, it makes no sense at all.

For Iroh, despite refusing the mantle of Fire Lord, is still in a position of great power: Grand Lotus of the White Lotus, a secret, world-spanning, information gathering organization that is made up of some of the most powerful leaders and benders in the world. 

An organization that not only mobilized within a few short weeks to reconquer Ba Sing Se during Sozin’s Comet, but also became Avatar’s version of UN Peacekeepers under Iroh’s leadership.

(Legacy of the Fire Nation all but says the White Lotus starts taking a more active role in the world while Iroh is still an active Grand Lotus. In fact, Xai Bau starts the Red Lotus in response to this change, with Iroh not only being aware of the Red Lotus’ existence, but also not understanding why taking a more active role is a betrayal of the White Lotus’ anarchist roots.)

Like outside the Avatars and other world leaders, Iroh is one of the most powerful people in the world. And yet, despite operating a tea shop in Ba Sing Se under his real name post-war, there is never indication that people attack him for assuming such a position of power, let alone for his past.

Not to mention, Iroh at times becomes interim Fire Lord for weeks on end with actual power (ex. Iroh created National Tea Appreciation Day when he was interim Fire Lord during the search for Ursa), and even at times actively plays a role in international affairs, like when he stood in for Zuko during Yu Dao’s inauguration ceremony. And yet, as far as canon is concerned, there is nary a peep from anyone outside of the Fire Nation.

Therefore, Iroh’s excuse that seeing the Dragon of the West in a position of power to influence world affairs again, let alone on the Fire Lord’s throne, is liable to send the rest of the world into a frenzy doesn’t hold up when scrutinized.

So to conclude, Zuko was not emotionally or mentally ready to assume the Fire Lord mantle by the end of the show since his crown prince education was basically non-existent and he still needs to continue growing as a person. Especially since attempting to reform the Fire Nation after the Hundred Year War is a task that even the most experienced and savvy leaders would find challenging.

However, Iroh does have the relevant training and emotional and mental maturity to help guide the Fire Nation during the early post-war years. And even on the surface the world may not stand for him on the throne, considering they are more than fine with him being a Grand Lotus of the White Lotus, or serving as interim Fire Lord, the world, in my opinion, would be more than fine with Iroh on the throne. 

Especially if he makes it clear that he would abdicate once Zuko’s crown prince training is complete and he is emotionally and mentally ready to take the throne.

So the fact that Iroh did not take the throne after the war is quite odd and does not reflect well on someone who is supposed to be wise and loves his surrogate son more than anything in the world.

For if Iroh was truly wise and loved Zuko as much as he, along with the narrative, says he does, why would he abandon his “son” to the metaphorical wolves?

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Yes, Azula and Iroh are War Criminals, But It Doesn't Matter

The debate on who committed war crimes is a debate that has gripped the ATLA fanbase for almost as long as the show has existed considering the show is fundamentally about war and negative effects on all touched by it.

But the fiercest war crimes debates often involve Fire Nation characters, or more specifically, Azula and Iroh. For if we take people’s arguments at face-value, people are interested in seeing what IRL crimes the two fan favorites committed, and what type of punishment would they be subjected to, if any, if they existed in the real world. 

So what is my take on the whole war crimes discourse surrounding Azula and Iroh? 

That they are both war criminals.

For Azula is guilty of war crimes since on top of suggesting, helping plan, and fully intending to carry out a genocide, she also engaged in petrify (her false surrender), the use of child soldiers (Mai and Ty Lee), and knew of and condoned the torture of war prisoners (the Boiling Rock).

However, Azula is a victim of a war crime herself, namely getting turned into a child soldier and general by her absolute sovereign, who also happens to be her father, and so any punishment, assuming ATLA had a war crimes trial after the end of the Hundred Year War instead just Ozai and Azula being locked up due to being Zuko’s prisoners, will take that into account.

Meanwhile, in regards to Iroh, while we don't have anything explicit, he is also most likely guilt of war crimes since it is highly unlikely that he never sat in his father's war council meetings where they talked about how to perpetuate the Southern Waterbender Genocide, as well as torture POWs in the Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom.

Not to mention, as a general and crown prince, Iroh is responsible for the actions of his subordinates/subjects. And so, for example, Iroh is responsible for burning Jet's village since the TTRPG confirmed that the Rough Rhinos were under his command when they burned Jet’s village.

However, turning on Zhao, helping Aang and Katara escape Ba Sing Se, and helping reconquer Ba Sing Se would probably lead him to getting a reduced punishment.

Though in my opinion, it is tacky to retire to the city you besieged for 600 days and is home to refugees you created during your decades of warmongering. 

But I think this whole debate on war crimes is a red herring for the real argument on the limits of redeemability.

For in my opinion, people’s arguments about whether or not Azula and/or Iroh are war criminals are often a proxy for people’s opinions on whether or not Azula is redeemable, whether or not Iroh could have ever redeemed himself regardless of the actions he took at the end of the war to help secure peace, and/or whether Iroh’s opinions in regards to Azula are valid.

And I think this whole (covert) discourse on redeemability is pointless since, even if you dislike it, the franchise as a whole essentially says that no one is irredeemable. 

And this is because in TLoK, the direct sequel to ATLA, they redeemed someone who wanted to mutilate all benders (Hiroshi Sato), kids who wanted to help their father bring about the end of humanity even after being told that was his plan (Eska and Desna), a war profiteer and funder of terrorism and fascism along with his main accomplice (Varrick and Zhu Li), and a fucking fascist (Kuvira).

Moreover, outside of Hiroshi, all these people end up with pretty happy endings in which they have, or are fixing their, meaningful relationships and/or have political/economic power.

Eska and Desna become co-leaders of the Northern Water Tribe and are on good terms with not only the rest of the world, but also with the Krew.

Varrick not only regains his company while becoming close allies with the Krew, but also gets to marry Zhu Li in a ceremony attended by world leaders despite mistreating her at best, and at worst abusing her for most of their screen time together. 

Not to mention, he eventually becomes First Man of the United Republic. 

Meanwhile, Zhu Li not only regained her position as Varrick’s right hand man in his company while also becoming close allies with the Krew and having her marriage ceremony attended by world leaders, but also eventually became President of the United Republic.

And finally, Kurvira manages to not only get house arrest in Zaofu, which is basically metalbending paradise, but also is heavily implied to be on the road to fixing all of her relationship with the Beifongs, even though she tried to kill them several times, including her former fiance Baatar Jr.

So to conclude, if you want to argue that someone is or isn't redeemable, I think it is better to focus on their character, and whether or not redeeming them would suit the narrative, instead of arguing whether or not they are war criminals.

Especially since the ATLA world has no equivalent to the Geneva Conventions, and the Avatar is the final arbiter when it comes to international affairs within ATLA’s setting.

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

This whole discourse gets so much worse once you realize that the Rough Rhinos where under General Iroh's command when they burned Jet's village.

Like, having Jet work at the Jasmine Dragon and seeking Iroh's forgiveness is the equivalent of having Katara work as a maid for Yon Rha while seeking his forgiveness for her actions towards in "The Southern Raiders."

Anytime someone suggests what Jet would be doing if he lived: will need some years to heal from the trauma, live peacefully with his friends, take care of orphans, maybe later open an orphanage or—

Someone, every single time: Make him a waiter at the Jasmine Dragon! Make him work for Iroh! Make him apologize to Iroh, make Iroh teach him to be a better person, have Zuko teach him to let go of anger, make Iroh and Zuko—

Yeah, let’s make Jet work for Iroh. He can easily learn to take responsibility for his actions from the man who was supposed to be the Fire Lord and let Ozai rule without any resistance. And Jet could learn to care about others who’ve unjustly harmed them too, just like how Iroh was never concerned with what happened to Jet after the Dai Li took him, or Zuko who found Appa immediately but forgot about Jet.

Jet can also learn so much more about women! I’m sure Smellerbee would love what Iroh has to say about girls.

And then we can have Iroh’s friends come over, like Mongke and the Rough Rhinos. And Jet can serve them! Isn’t that poetic? Isn’t that beautiful? The oppressed serving the oppressor? Maybe for added bonus we can have Jet apologize to them for still hating them for killing his parents and burning down his village.

I tell myself that many people are casual fans, and seeing as Jet is a side character, most overlook him. But a whole lot of this fandom writes numerous fanfics, headcanons, theories, AUs, and dissects so many of the characters that you really cannot be excused for thinking Jet had no right to hate the Fire Nation or that he would heal under someone who actively participated in the war for years.

I really don’t care if you stan Iroh and think he’s a saint. What’s canon is that he did fight for the Fire Nation for years and was happy doing it, and what’s also canon is that Jet has lost so many people to the Fire Nation and he’s a child.

Those two alone should be enough to make it clear Jet being around Iroh would only be traumatizing.

[akiizayoi4869]

Yep. They just ruin his character by doing this.

Iroh: *learns to firebend without hatred and aggression after being found worthy by the dragons*

Also Iroh: *Commits imperialistic violence against the Earth Kingdom for decades culminating in a 600 day siege of Ba Sing Se*

Truly an example of how firebending can be used without hatred or aggression and how he proves himself worthy to the dragons.

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Iroh never tried to do anything because he never cared for Azula in the first place.

What should the adults in Azula's life have done?

There have been some discussions about how every adult in Azula's life has failed her. They were complicit in her abuse, abandoned her to the mercy of a man who had no mercy, and/or failed to give her the affection and nurturing she needed.

The closest thing she has to an adult giving a single fuck about her is when Lo and Li said, "Azula, we are concerned for you and your well-being," as she was spiraling in paranoia.

We all know that an adult intervening and helping Azula would have made a world of difference to her. But I wonder: how should they have intervened?

Let's not entertain something basically suicidal like openly defying Ozai. Zuko is the living example of the best outcome of that course of action.

What could someone--anyone--have said or done, no matter how small, to steer Azula toward better choices?

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

The canon TTRPG is not a video game, but a tabletop game. Also, the part that I thought was a retcon was not that the waterbenders taught him (the TTRPG never implies that), but that he knew how to redirect lightning pre-Lu Ten's death, yet never challenged Ozai for the throne. For I thought Iroh knew the theory behind lightning redirection, but didn't feel comfortable using it until the storm during "The Storm" forced him to, and thus he learned not only was it a viable technique, but also that it was safe to teach others.

But the reblogs bring up an interesting question of how did Iroh manage to see waterbenders in action pre-Lu Ten's death considering the Northern Water Tribe had no contact with the outside world, the Southern Water Tribe waterbenders were nearing extinction as they were either killed or jailed, the swampbenders were isolated, the White Lotus waterbending members wouldn't dare/want to interact with him, and the show never indicates there were other waterbending fractions outside of those groups (ex. waterbenders living in the Earth Kingdom proper).

Like it means that he likely either partook in the Southern Water Tribe raids or met the swampbenders without ever telling anyone like he did the Dragons. But the latter doesn't make sense since he wanted to conqueror the Earth Kingdom, and so why would he leave potentially dangerous enemies alone, or their fertile and highly valuable land alone? But the creators are hell-bent in trying to make pre-redemption Iroh better than he should have been considering he was Azulon's heir and the pride and joy of the Fire Nation, so they'll never imply that he had any knowledge of the raids, let alone had anything to do with them.

So IDK at this point.

Just found out that the avatar video game made a water tribe man teaches Iroh lightning redirection because Saint, and I didn't feel like commenting because of how stupid it is. Then I remembered how Iroh stand by letting Zuko terrorizes the Southern Water Tribe and then was the military consultant of the Zhao's seige/assault on the Northern Water Tribe.

Everytime they try to sanctify Iroh, just make him look worse.

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Yeah, if Zuko and Iroh were always good, and never did anything wrong, then their arcs were pointless since redemption requires people to redeem themselves for prior bad acts.

Like you can't say that Zuko had the greatest redemption arc in animated history, or laude Iroh's (largely) off-screen redemption, and then say they never did anything wrong. That is like saying you love someone as you stab them.

Either Iroh and Zuko never did anything wrong, and so their arcs in the TV show were one of healing, or they did do wrong, and therefore their arcs in the TV show were one of redemption.

And I am pretty sure Zuko and Iroh did a lot of wrong things, just ask their victims, like the Kyoshi Islanders who had their home burned by Zuko, or the Earth Kingdom peasants who lost their lives during Iroh's siege of Ba Sing Se.

Humanizing vs woobifying. What's the difference?

Humanizing: Zuko and Iroh were raised by abusive fathers in a absurdly imperialistic nation, and naturally that fucks with their idea of what is right and wrong even after the show presents them as good guys. We can, and should, recognize the flaws in their characters, but we can never lose sight of why and how said flaws came to be.

Woobifying: Zuko is an awkward turtleduck who never did anything wrong in his life, since his father abusing him means none of his mistakes and bad decisions are actually his fault. Iroh was always a good guy, please forget that his siege in Ba Sing Se definitively got a bunch of innocent people killed and that he did it all after learning from the dragons - he even brought Azula a doll to teach her to have more empathy for little girls of the earth kingdom! The city he said he would burn to the ground! He is such a good man!

(Yes, that last one is an actual thing I had to see with my own two eyes, and I'm forcing all of you to suffer through it with me)

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

The only thing I will add to this is that the TTRPG confirmed that Iroh was the Rough Rhinos superior when they burned Jet's village. So Iroh is directly responsible for Jet's family and his village being destroyed just like Azula, for example, is responsible for the torture of prisoners in the Boiling Rock even if she never laid a hand on them.

I don’t feel like making this into a full blown meta post, so I’ll keep this short.

Jet had every right to be suspicious of Zuko and Iroh in Ba Sing Se.

“Oh but they were trying to start over and lay low!” So? First of all, how would Jet even know that? To him, they were just two firebenders infiltrating the Earth Kingdom’s last line of defense. And even if he did know that they were trying to start over, why should he care? Seriously, why? After this happened to him?

His entire family/village was killed by the Fire Nation. So why should he feel bad about being rightfully suspicious of those two? I’ve seen this take so many times in fanfics that’s centered around Zuko and Iroh, and it makes no sense. Sometimes Jet actually apologizes to them about that if the author has him live. And it’s disgusting. Think about it like this: Zuko proved Jet right in the end. You know why? Because Zuko turned around and did this:

Which then led to this:

Zuko helped kill the world’s last hope for peace. When he was supposed to have been “starting over” with Iroh.

So in conclusion:

Leave Jet alone.

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

So wait, fandom thinks Iroh, a regular human being, is more spiritual than a human fused with Raava, the sprit of light and peace?

How???!!!!

Fuck this fandom

Yeah, this fandom worships Iroh beyond belief.

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Didn't the TTRPG confirm that Iroh was the Rough Rhinos' commander when they burned Jet's village? So even if the Jet anti's are right and Jet is worse than Iroh, Jet is basically a monster of Iroh's creation, one that we never see Iroh take responsibility for in the show or any of the extended universe materials.

Jet is not worse than Iroh

Defending Jet feels weird sometimes because I don’t condone what he did but I also really understand how it happened and still consider him a good person.

People can like or dislike any character, but something has always pissed me off with how people talk about Jet and I finally found a coherent way to express it.

Let’s look at Iroh. He fought in the war and killed many people to the point he made himself known across the Earth Kingdom. He was once friends with the Rough Rhinos who were the cause of Jet’s loss. He breached the walls of Ba Sing Se and the only reason why the Fire Nation didn’t succeed then was because Iroh lost his son.

Iroh was an adult. Iroh was a powerful firebender. Iroh had strong political power. Iroh had an army. Iroh could go anywhere he wanted. Iroh lost his son at war as an adult.

Yet the fandom:

 praises him

says he’s a great person

even wants him to be Zuko’s father

feels horrible he lost his son

says he felt sorry

doesn’t see a reason why any character should hate him

and will argue it was the propaganda he was fed

Now Jet manipulated the Gaang into flooding a village. We don’t know much about Gaipan beyond that there were soldiers there, but the show didn’t color in the scene of Sokka warning them (wonder why). I think we could assume there were EK civilians there. The only reason why no one died was because the Gaang interfered.

Jet was a child. Jet wasn’t a bender. Jet had other children fighting with him. Jet had nothing to his name. Anywhere Jet did go there were Fire Nation soldiers. Jet lost his parents as a child. Jet lost his home.

Yet the fandom:

demonizes him

calls him a monster

compares him to the Fire Nation

barely acknowledges his trauma

only considers him remotely likeable because he tried to change

or still doesn’t think that’s enough

believes there’s no way Katara could ever forgive him

and will argue he should have seen past his prejudice and trauma

If people look at Jet and condemn him, Iroh should be treated even worse because he was in a much better situation and did worse. He had wealth, he had a nation supporting him, he was an adult.

What did Jet have? Trauma, a home where soldiers are constantly passing through, a bunch of other orphans to take care of, a nation that’s losing more and more, a nation that doesn’t care about orphans, and a mind and body not old enough to deal with it (if you could be old enough to deal with it).

Jet didn’t even kill anyone. Iroh killed hundreds if his title is anything to go by  and would have probably won the war had his son not died. Meaning he didn’t stop because he wanted to. He stopped because he was forced to.

Which is the same thing as Jet except every other disadvantage Jet had.

What about Jet is worse than Iroh? What about Jet makes people say he should have seen passed his anger and trauma, but Iroh is excused as a functioning adult? Even people who like Jet act like he’s worse than Iroh or that it will require a lot for him to be accepted by the Gaang.

Oh Iroh was fed propaganda his whole life.

Yeah and Jet was fed death and killing and homelessness and cruelty at least half of his life. I wonder what that does to a person.

Jet didn’t get the opportunity to see the Fire Nation living as regular people, but Iroh sure did with the Earth Kingdom and he still killed them.

Also Jet actually cared about the war and what happened to his people. Iroh did nothing until the very end. He didn’t fight in the Invasion, and he never confronted Ozai.

Jet would never

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Yeah, this pattern of trying of whitewash Iroh's past may have started in the show proper when they said he spared the dragons even though it means he knew fire was life yet still used it to take life for years, if not decades.

However, I think the current trend of trying to sugarcoat his past started in the Legacy of the Fire Nation, where they basically have Iroh talk in a passive voice about what he did as Crown Prince and as General and basically say he did evil because he thought it was expected of him, like he was a teenager like Zuko when he changed, and not a man with a teenage/grown up son of his own.

Like I thought the whole point of Iroh's character was to serve as mentor for Zuko by having someone who wholeheartedly believed in the Fire Nation's imperalist project be there to help him slow walk through the hard process of deprogramming since he had already been through it. But if they keep making him an always good guy whose biggest problem was being misled by his father and ancestors, then I think a lot of the strength of Iroh's character is lost.

Iroh: *learns to firebend without hatred and aggression after being found worthy by the dragons*

Also Iroh: *Commits imperialistic violence against the Earth Kingdom for decades culminating in a 600 day siege of Ba Sing Se*

Truly an example of how firebending can be used without hatred or aggression and how he proves himself worthy to the dragons.

[proxissima]

Canon: Iroh makes jokes about burning Ba Sing Se down, is a war criminal.

Fanon: Epidome of wisdom, flawless, a SAINT. Has never done anything wrong in his life. Ever. Was sometimes a war general, but only reluctantly. Never believed in Fire Nation propaganda and never carried it out proudly. Never caused the death of more people than the rest of his family combined, save for his forefathers.

Canon: Azula throws bread in the turtleducks' pond.

Fanfiction: Azula takes the turtleducks and set them in fire, malform them, torture them and watch them die as they scream.