#instead of playing Lucy gray how she is in the book

[evansbby]

I’m gonna say something slightly controversial

[starrrbakerrr]

I’ve noticed that Tumblr is the only platform that widely acknowledges the fact that Katniss, Gale, and Haymitch were severely whitewashed in the films. On Twitter I’ve seen people get downright offended at the mention of Katniss being Indigenous, mixed, or simply non-white. I’ve seen people say that people with olive skin can be white and yes that’s true, but Jennifer Lawrence does not have olive skin which still makes her casting inaccurate.

I think this is because Twitter and TikTok focuses on videos, images, and short blurbs of writing - which caters to the movies. It’s the only visual representation of the books outside of fanart. Tumblr allows users to write long think pieces and the books are the primary reference instead of the movies. I’ve only seen the books mentioned outside of Tumblr when talking about Peeta’s characterization and missing lines in the movies. BookTok has also opened discussion of Katniss being non-white but otherwise non-white Katniss is generally not well received outside of Tumblr. Even fanart of Katniss with darker skin isn’t regularly distributed outside of Tumblr.

It’s disheartening but unsurprising. I mean, back when the first movie was released people were outraged that Rue was Black even though it was explicitly referenced multiple times. I just remember being in middle school and obsessed with the books and so excited when the movies were announced, and I was really disappointed with the casting of Katniss because I always imagined her as non-white like myself. Katniss is also supposed to be short and small in stature so that was difficult for me to grasp but I’m glad Jennifer didn’t pressure herself to lose weight for the role (she mentioned this in an interview). I think Jennifer and Woody did great in their roles, and Liam did good with what he was given, but I don’t see them as Katniss, Haymitch and Gale when reading the books or fanfiction. I remember Suzanne saying in an interview that the Katniss she imagines doesn’t exist, but Jennifer is close enough. I’m really curious to know how she imagines Katniss beyond the general descriptors of olive skin, dark hair, and grey eyes.

I’m also genuinely glad that Rachel Zegler is playing Lucy Gray Baird. She has tanner skin, which is great. However, the unfortunate reality is that she’s still “white enough” to be palatable to a white audience.

[spacy-snail]

Parts of the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes movie that did the book dirty

Spoilers!!

…

• Snow is the one to suggest feeding the tributes, not stumbling across Sejanus already doing it

• The downgrade of the whole rat problem/rat poison thing

• Grandma’am is nice now???

• The almost total removal of Clemensia’s character, her being a weird suck up instead of her making a normal teen lie, and the fallout showing the absolute apathy Dr Gaul has (and also making Snow realize he can’t even trust the Capitol)

• Dr Gaul literally spelling out what the snakes do and Clemensia still sticking her hand in that stupid snake tank

• Not having Snow calling Lucy Gray “mine” in a creepy way even once to show how he feels he has ownership of her from the very beginning

• The EXTREME downgrade of Snow and Sejanus’ relationship, and the weird bond he has with the Plinths in general

• Ma Plinth erasure

• Tigris erasure

• Getting rid of Arachne’s funeral

• Snow not going out of his way to get Lucy Gray a guitar

• Having a blink and you’ll miss it throwaway line of the tributes and Academy students that died in the explosion

• Not showing the other tributes that did the interview

• Not showing Mama Snow’s compact until Coriolanus deciding to give it to Lucy Gray

• Lucy Gray and Snow didn’t kiss before she went into the games??? I feel like that added and extra layer of her wanting to survive but idk

• The erasure of the iconic “it’s not over until the mockingjay sings” line

• The drones never being fixed was a super weird choice and I’m not sure if I liked it or not

• Snow being super suspicious and running out to put something with Lucy Gray’s scent in the snake tank instead of just getting lucky and putting it in there on the off chance instead of it being predetermined

• The Games ending with the snake scene instead of Lucy Gray having to be clever to outwit her opponents, like I get it’s dramatic but that scene with Dr Gaul was just so weird to me

• Highbottom TELLING Snow to sign up for the Peacekeepers instead of just implying it and also telling him to keep his identity anonymous instead of Snow doing it out of pride

• Sejanus not telling Snow about the diploma he literally bargained for for him

• Sejanus showing up on the train instead of after Snow gets to District 12 and has to wallow in what his life is now before having finally having someone that actually knows him

• Snow not having IMMEDIATE beef with the mockingjays

• Snow not calling Sejanus his brother until the moment he betrayed him

• Them playing the Jabberjay audio at the hanging instead of Snow having to sit with his guilt and finding out via the commander was so so SO cringy omg

• Snow finding out he was going to District 2 BEFORE finding out about the hunt for the guns and who killed the mayor’s daughter was so so weird like why did they choose to do it in that order I feel like it took away all suspense of wondering when the other shoe was going to drop

• Lucy Gray looking that man in the eye and calling herself a loose end while he has a gun in his hand and not getting shot then and there was the most unrealistic part of the movie istg

• Not showing the Plinths in the apartment with them at all and just kinda having a throwaway line about where the money’s coming from

• Dr Gaul never says that she destroyed all evidence of the 10th game because of everything that happened with Snow, Lucy Gray, Sejanus, and the other dead Capitol children

• Snow not throwing away the morphine and Highbottom digging to get it, and instead just leaving it on the desk, idk it takes away the agency of the murder to me, less like an accident and less thought out (and on top of that, not showing how meticulous he was with poisoning the morphine so it couldn’t be traced back to him)

[wintermoth]

So I just saw The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes and i gotta say, they did a damn good job.

But I'm not altogether happy with how much they changed the Games from how they played out in the book. I get needing to condense them for runtime and I get needing to change certain things like having cameras in the tunnels. The 10th Games were literally bursts of activity followed by hours upon hours of nothing because they couldn't see underground.

But it's the progression of events, the kill order & swapping of kills, and the omission of events which bothers me. Rest under the cut cos Long Post.

First of all: the Bloodbath. In the book, there is no Bloodbath. The kids literally grabbed supplies and hauled ASS to safety. You know. Like terrified children would. I personally think it was a mistake having the Bloodbath at all but I'm guessing some studio execs pulled rank on this one. >_>

Weaponizing the drones was something which...should've only worked once but whatever.

Coral getting properly fleshed out to be the main antagonist in the arena? Cool shit. They combined various aspects of other characters like Treech (7) and Teslee (3) into her. It gives us someone to root against and, narratively, I understand why they did it. She wasn't someone who'd trained her whole life like, say, Cato. She was just a kid who was doing what she thought she had to to get home. She was a bully, yeah, but not a villain.

Dill dying to the poison instead of her illness...um okay? This one I really don't get. IMO Lucy Gray seeing little Wovey die to the poison as she did in the books would've been much harder on her and the audience considering earlier events. Deadass, I think it was their way of dealing with the Reaper Problem - more on this in a minute Wovey's death was a cheap attempt at shock value and, surprise, no one was shocked. EVERYONE knew that container was bad news--audience, capitol, tributes--except perhaps Wovey herself. We'll blame the trauma.

And as for Lucy Gray herself, of her three book kills, one was removed entirely, and two were changed. The first being Dill instead of Wovey. The second being the way in which she killed Treerch. She was supposed to use a snake mutt as a weapon which she'd protected and hidden in her dress--which served as both a callback to her Reaping with the mayor's daughter.....and a premonition of what would eventually happen in the woods outside 12. And she was supposed to outwit/outmaneuver Reaper, which was removed entirely.

So, Reaper Ash. Big guy from District 11. The Thresh of these games. It's like they didn't know what to do with him. They dedicated his little screen time before the Games to making it clear he was 100% That Bitch and there were several lines (most from Lucky) indicating he was a strong contender. One of a handful of instances of Checkov's Gun, a rule of writing which states if you're going to call attention to a detail, it better fucking be important.

Allow me to summarize book events for those of you who don't know: The night before the Games, he apologizes to the surviving tributes for having to kill them and Jessup, who has rabies, spits in his eye. At the start of the Games, he was one of the few to run to get weapons at the start and was ready to fight, but everyone else was gone. So he heads out to hunt them down. Reaper was the only one proactively looking for a fight. Later, Reaper finds Dill down in the tunnels and carries her out into the open and lays her down in the sun because she's dying already and he's not going to kill her. He leaves her to her own devices and moves on. The next time we see him, he mercifully lets Lucy Gray flee from him. Afterwards, he strikes up an agreement with Lamina, the girl from 7, who's cleverly holed up high off the ground, and shows himself to pragmatic, fair, and good to his word.

Lamina warns him of oncoming tributes and he flees. When he eventually returns, he finds her and another murdered. Incensed, he begins assembling his morgue. During this, he uses part of a Capitol flag to make himself a cape, which makes him happy. The next day, he added Wovey to his morgue. When the Snakes are released into the arena, he is out of the line of fire, up in the stands, and survives.

By now, though, the rabies is really starting to affect him. He continues to obsessively add to and protect his morgue. On the last day, when Lucy Gray tries to add the third place tribute to it, he scares her off. But it's just them now and he doesn't even try to kill her. All he cares about is maintaining the morgue and keeping their bodies covered. He is eventually run ragged by Lucy Gray, who knows he's sick, and meets his end by drinking a poisoned puddle. He crawls to his morgue and dies. Lucy Gray wins.

In the movie, there's a Bloodbath and kids start killing each other, and he's right in there with them. We see him throw down ONLY to defend Dill. Then they just kinda....disappear. And they stay disappeared throughout everything which follows. None of his moments with the other tributes occur. When they emerge, Dill is significantly ahead of him--which tbh makes little sense since, as her protector, he reasonably should've gone out first to ensure it's safe--and dies by drinking poison. He is devastated and screams dramatically. He then begins to make his morgue and offend the capitol by disrespecting the flag before making a big dramatic speech to the cameras daring them to punish him. He apparently stays by his morgue for the rest of the day and when the snake mutts get dropped into the arena, he is keenly aware of the danger. He warns Wovey away, though she doesn't listen. He is almost immediately engulfed by the snakes. He holds still, sits up straight and tall, closes his eyes, then falls forward dead, followed swiftly by the remaining tributes except Lucy Gray.

So, that being said.

Book Reaper's story is a young man who expected to win and was prepared to do it, only for his degenerating mind to focus on protecting the dignity of the murdered children around him. His death was ignoble.

Movie Reaper's story is a young man who expected to win and was prepared to do it, but was also determined to protect his weak district partner with his life, and upon losing her, presents the Capitol both middle fingers. His death was ignoble.

I get why they cut the rabies plotline for the movie. It definitely saved time.....and it REALLY wouldn't look good if the filmmakers had both black guys die of rabies. Just saying. What bothers me about his movie story is just how unfulfilling it was. Going back to Checkov's Gun, he was supposed to be a Threat. And then he just. Wasn't. All for a over-dramatic and tbh unnecessary moment of glory.

so yeah that's my two cents.

anyway go see the movie.

[the-sun-and-the-sea]

My take on Snow's future fixation with Lucy Gray

So I've seen this take floating around that Snow hates Katniss because of her connection to Lucy Gray, that Snow hates D12 because Lucy Gray left him, or other variations of it. And for a while it just hasn't sat quite right with me, and I think now I can articulate why.

First of all, I get why this take is so appealing, especially to those who have only seen the movie. There's a sense of cosmic justice in it. It's satisfying to think that someone as abhorrent as Snow will be reminded of his first atrocities, not only with Lucy Gray but with the Games in general, until his dying breath. But this take hinges on the idea that Snow is thinking about Lucy Gray at all, and I don't think he is.

Reading the book makes it incredibly apparent that Coriolanus does not care about Lucy Gray on a personal level. He does not find her wants or needs significant, unless they align with his own. There's even a line where he says that he'd rather have Lucy Gray locked up in the Capitol, so he can always have an idea of what she is doing. I think there absolutely was some attachment there, I won't deny that, but I'm not sure how much of it was the selflessness that we associate with love.

I find it really hard to believe that Coriolanus spent any extended period of time thinking about Lucy Gray after her disappearance, and certainly not 64 years in the future. He does not care about her. After leaving District 12 I have to imagine he'd be ready to forget the experience and look forward to his future, which as we know became quite promising.

I don't mean to say that Coriolanus wasn't effected by this experience, because he definitely was. I just don't think his feelings were fixated on Lucy Gray. Instead, the situation in 12 just confirmed what he already thought he knew: that people are inherently evil, self-serving creatures, and even those you trust will betray you at the slightest provocation. He developed a contempt not just for Lucy Gray, but for people in the districts in general. Or even humanity as a whole. That's why Katniss is such a threat to him. Without the Capitol to keep everyone in line, humans will revert to what they truly are.

This belief may have stemmed from his experience in District 12, and was certainly exacerbated by Dr. Gaul's manipulation. But I don't think that he hates Lucy Gray specifically, because to him, she's not even worth thinking about on any individual level. Instead, he holds humanity as a whole in low regard, especially the people in the districts, and we see this play out as he becomes president.

Hopefully my thoughts make sense here, and I'd love to know what you think!

[sun-stricken]

i love gray's friendships with female characters, at least through tenrou arc! like that he's at once the "cool guy," sweet underneath, kinda flirty, and embarrasses a little easily - it's very easy to come up with HCs for his female friendships and you can't often say that about the cool rival guys(TM) in anime!

like for cana - -they're were the OG kids in the guild and i like the idea that cana felt like she could complain about boy troubles to gray -they were also friends with benefits at some point 👀 they broke it off very amicably and cana still rants to him about "girl stuff." he always finds it boring when she starts but eventually he gets invested and starts ranting with her, by this point mira also joins in on their gossiping <3

for erza - -she was definitely his first crush/love around his own age and one of the reasons he responded so strongly when he saw her crying alone, was because he was reminded of when ur used to do the same thing since she lost ultear (like the flashbacks in tenrou island arc of her sobbing while clutching ultear's old baby clothes). except back then, he didn't know how to help and just pretended he never saw anything, and it's one of his biggest regrets. so he decided to do something about erza even if he was really clumsy at it. -eventually he learned ice-making and wielding all those weapons because he asked erza to help teach him (even if he had to swallow his pride to do it). at first it's just between them but eventually a lot of the guild gets invested and watches their sparring sessions - levy helps him find books about specific swordplay techniques based on erza's recommendations -once, erza criticizes his fighting style and says she can read every move because he keeps playing it safe and is constantly on the defensive; she urges him to be more spontaneous and unpredictable because that kind of creativity is well-suited for maker mages. so during the fight, she's got him pinned (as usual) and the guild thinks it's over until, on a whim, he suddenly kisses her... and in erza's shock he manages to unpin himself and hold his own ice dagger at her throat instead. the guild's holding their breath and thinks erza's gonna beat him up LMAO, and gray also immediately tries to apologize and grovel, but erza simply brushes it off and says he was the smarter fighter that time, so he won fair and square. they both don't know that it was the other's first kiss 👀 -to thank erza for training him, gray gifted her those diamond-knife earrings (i figured bc he also wears that cross necklace and occasionally earrings...) - he's not really sure if she even likes them because she didn't show too much interest in jewelry/makeup/anything that isn't strictly practical, but to this day, he's never seen her take them off -erza made him quit smoking lmao, he used to be smoking buddies with mira until they both quit. he still doesn't do it but sometimes at a town event or similar occasion, he might indulge in a cig or two - nothing more. but he never does it in front of erza -gray standing up to erza in galuna island arc is like a guild legend now. people always bring it up when they introduce him to a newcomer; gray feels kinda embarrassed and uncomfortable by it and tries to apologize to erza about it, but she says she doesn't mind at all and he taught her a valuable lesson that day

for lucy - -sometimes he sits in on her and levy's discussions about the short stories she's writing and her eventual novel. he doesn't really throw out too many ideas, he just prefers to listen because he's reminded of the tales of adventure that ur used to tell him and lyon after dinner. sometimes lucy asks him about his home country and stuff so she can write short informational articles about it in sorcerer weekly, and he's happy to reminisce. -he really does find lucy's apartment comfortable because it has multiple thermostats. lucy always keeps the laundry area a little cooler just for gray whenever he drops by, since she knows he likes sitting there

for ultear - -it's a little hard to look her in the eyes sometimes because she resembles ur so much, but gray always appreciates her presence. sometimes ultear asks him to talk about little things about her mother, like her favorite foods or a story about her, and gray's always happy to indulge. lyon joins in too when he can! -once lyon hit on her in front of gray much to the latter's complete mortification, but ultear just burst out laughing and lyon turned brick red (there's an unspoken plea from lyon to never bring that incident up, but gray's just waiting for the chance to use it against him) -he always feels a little jolt in his chest when there's something ultear subconsciously does that's just like ur - they both put their hands on their hips the same way when they're pleased, she dots her "i's" with big circles like ur did, and they have similar tastes in food. gray doesn't know whether to feel pleased or pained -ultear thinks gray's stripping habit is endearing -ur was kinda gray's first puppy crush in the early says of being her student (before she became like a mother to him), and sometimes he wonders if he might end up feelings similarly about ultear if they spent more time together -ultear gave him a very rudimentary communication lacrima where you can tell the other person's mood/general state of mind if you let a little of your magic flow into it. sometimes gray uses it at night to see if she and crime sorciere are doing okay <3

i love exploring Grays relationship with others so much, also this is so long and as much as i love it i cant think of things to add on to it

but this absolutely needs to be shown to the world and praised bc holy shit this great and im definitely stealing at least 90% of these

[fandomshatepeopleofcolor]

Coriolanus Snow is portrayed by a white man and Lucy Gray is played by a woman of colour and Romani coded, so guess what the hot takes are:

Lucy is an evil seductress who manipulated Snow.

It’s Lucy’s fault Snow turned evil, she abandoned him.

Snow was the real victim because he felt bad sometimes, Lucy never did.

Lucy deserves to die for hurting Snow’s feelings.

It actually makes me grateful Katniss was played by a white woman, Lord only knows what awful takes we’d be getting if Shay Mitchell had been cast instead.

ugh I was hoping to avoid the tags (I wasn't going to see the movie in theaters but my family does but I don't think we'll see it until xmas eve) but I guess since Rachel is getting racist hate I should start calling this out.

but just a few things

I knew this was going to be a shitshow based on reading the book alone.

I'm not sure where you're getting that Lucy is Romani coded? Is that coming from Collins?

Coriolanus snow was literally a conniving manipulater/murderer how is this Lucy's fault? (again based on the book).

Not sure where you're getting that Shay Mitchell should have been Katniss (don't get me wrong I love shay she's the main reason I watched so much of pll but like... this fancasting is news to me).

mod ali

[coryolanussnow]

should not have read more tbosas while working bc now im about to cry about snowbaird

everyone talking in fandom always made it kind of sound like coryo disliked the covey’s way of life and being out there with them or that he complained about it

but i’m at the part where they make the day’s trip to the lake and he doesn’t? like he worries about an animal attack being so far from civilization with no weapons (and he still isn’t a fan of mockingjays, which is annoying) but besides that he enjoys it. he even thinks to himself it’s the happiest he’s felt in forever. and he’s just playing games with his friends and learning about how they eat in the wild and about their names and culture and stuff

and maude ivory is so cute, telling him his name is like theirs. :( he genuinely is happy

it’s so sweet seeing how he’s changed over the course of the book and i’m gonna kms because i’m about to lose that 😭 the fact, when he does the betrayal, he thought strabo would save sejanus from trouble but he just gets immediately executed. i’m so upset??

the way the lake scene is going really enforces my belief about his parallel to the nature of the snake(s) and how it really could have gone either way but because of the way things unfolded and his nature being the way it was just at a base level (like what he prioritizes and the way he’s a fearful person who lets that rule him, then you mix in gaul’s grooming), he made the wrong choices and played into his unhappy ending. being one of the snake mutts instead of lucy gray’s snakes

the quote from maude ivory about how she’s scared of them but lucy gray loves them, knows where to find them and will pick them up in her hand. fuckkkkkk

update: should i kms

[michelle-ko-i]

The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes

Coriolanus Snow vs. the Underdogs

So a new trailer for the TBOSAS just dropped when I'm writing this, and I haven't really done many Hunger Games analyses. And I just want to say how important TBOSAS is for those who are either new to the series or don't get why Suzanne Collins wrote about this time in Snow's life. So I'm going to break it down for those who may not have seen these connections, or those who just don't get it in the first place. Also, this contains spoilers for the TBOSAS book, so go read it before the movie!

So, i've met many people who don't get why TBOSAS takes place when it does. if you're not aware, it takes place around the time of the 10th Hunger Games, in which Coriolanus Snow is on the verge of graduating from the Academy, and trying to get himself into the University. This particular year of the Games is important for him, because he is assigned a tribute to mentor. He is assigned Lucy Gray Baird, of District 12. Already we are introduced to some parallel between him and Katniss.

Now many fans have made connections between Katniss and Lucy Gray, primarily on the facts that it was because they both can sing, and have a good sense of survival, but the truth is, they are very different characters, but because of Snow's growing apathy, he can't tell the two apart. Lucy Gray is a performer, contrary to Katniss. Remember in the first book how Katniss thought the acting, and the being pretty part of the Games was silly? Remember how awkward she thought pretending to be in love with Peeta was? Lucy Gray wasn't like that. She was used to many people looking at her, hoping for a show. She was extroverted, charming, and more importantly comfortable with her spotlight. Katniss, while she was certainly charming, was not trained to entertain. Katniss was introverted and awkward, and she was afraid to sing in front of Cressida and her crew later in Mockingjay. She didn't like acting for the cameras in Mockingjay and the first book. Katniss preferred to be left to her own devices, rather than rely on someone else for attention.

now you're probably asking yourself; so why would these two girls have much of an impact on Snow? Well you see, they don't have all the impact, they are just one of the very many examples of this interest Snow has.

Obviously, Snow is a vengeful character; if he doesn't get what he wants, he punishes those who won't give it to him. If you hurt him, he will hurt you back. Snow has been able to use this strategy his whole life. but there's one person he wasn't able to punish for betraying him: Lucy Gray. whether she's dead or far away, Snow wants to punish her. So what does he do instead? he punishes those who remind him of her. here are a few examples: Finnick Odair.

Finnick has a few similarities to Lucy Gray; he's charming, extroverted, and can stand out in a crowd. he was--as they say--an underdog, as he was one of the youngest in the arena during his Games, and overcame the odds by becoming the youngest winner ever. so, when Finnick won, to get back at how Lucy Gray used to charm him, Snow made Finnick prostitute himself for money, and threatened that if he didn't go as Snow ordered, someone he loved would pay the consequences. this was his way to get back at betraying Snow's affection towards Lucy Gray.

example 2: Johanna Mason.

Johanna was very much an underdog. According to Katniss's inner monologue in the first book, Johanna came into the Games, playing like she was small and weak; sort of like Lucy Gray. Lucy Gray was no fighter--or at least wouldn't be able to defend herself very well, even if she had a weapon. and because of her unwillingness to give up, and her ability to capture a crowd with her comments and "bubbly" personality, this reminded him of Lucy Gray, he punished her for it.

and finally: Katniss Everdeen. Katniss, to Snow, is the living embodiment of Lucy Gray, practically the reincarnation of her. Even if she and Lucy Gray are very different, there are two things that Katniss and Lucy Gray have in common: they are underdogs from District 12. which in the point of view of the capitol, is the lowest of the low when it comes to the tributes in the Hunger Games.

and that's what all of these characters punished by Snow share: in their games they were underdogs. Finnick--the youngest in the arena. Johanna--the weakest. Katniss and Peeta--star-crossed lovers from District 12. all examples of overcoming the odds and defeating the enemy (which is the definition of a underdog).

Lucy Gray was an underdog. She had the odds against her favour and still one with her charm and talent like all of these victors did.

Lucy Gray is the beginning of this revenge Snow feels towards underdogs. Don't believe me? let's look at the movies.

One thing that makes the movies stand out from the books is how there are multiple scenes that don't include Katniss--even if the books are in her POV. One particular scene that proves that Snow is vengeful against Lucy Gray's betrayal is when he was talking to Seneca Crane about underdogs in the first movie, after . here's the exhange:

Snow: "So you like an underdog."

Seneca: "Everyone likes an underdog." Snow: "I don't... Have you ever been out there? 10, 11, 12?"

Seneca: "Not personally, no."

Snow: "I have. There are lots of underdogs [...] And I think that if you see them, you would not root for them either."

there are lots of underdogs. that's why Snow is targeting Katniss most of all, because Snow has seen firsthand the underdogs produced from the higher districts, like Lucy Gray. Remember, this scene was written before TBOSAS was even published. and Suzanne Collins worked on the screenplay for the films. Lucy Gray was the foundation of Coriolanus Snow's character from the beginning

This revenge, this hatred for those trying to survive is what literally drives Snow to punish them. the fact that they were able to bring themselves up from his iron fist with their charm and wit, and most of all--defy the system that is meant to keep them down. something that he wasn't able to do. Snow was able to manipulate, but never actually figure out the situation for himself. he always had help, he always had someone to rely on--he was never able to do it alone, unlike those victors he punished. but it could also be the other way around. these victors always had help. People betted on Katniss, gave her gifts, she had Peeta.

that's another example of Snow's vengeful attitude towards Katniss--her relationship with Peeta. I feel in some way that Snow is resented towards Katniss's relationship with Peeta. I believe he always knew that she was trying to protect him--something he could not achieve with Lucy Gray, or she never showed towards him.

so there you have it. that is why Snow is the way that he is, and that's what makes TBOSAS so important to the Hunger Games lore as a whole. I personally think that Snow is singlehandedly the most important character to analyze in this series, because what he ultimately becomes was because of a small girl who ran away.

[stevethehairington]

just read an article that like. tears apart tbosas and says all this shit about how it's just another "evil white man exploration movie" that romanticizes snow and the hunger games and how snow is conflicted about his role here but the audience ISNT conflicted bc it's hard for us to feel for snow bc he's "the same person we've always known" and like. THATS THE POINT. THAT IS LITERALLY THE POINT. this prequel isn't SUPPOSED to make us like snow. we're SUPPOSED to see how he's ALWAYS been this terrible person and how despite growing up with influences that could have changed that trajectory they DIDNT and we see what SOLIDIFIED that awfulness.

this article said "it’s hard to stay invested in a character whose trajectory you already know." and while there are times i would agree with that sentiment about other prequel stuff, i fully DISAGREE here. this book is SO gripping, suzanne collins is a fucking MAGICIAN with her words and every detail in her books is SO purposeful. like sorry you missed all of that article writer but you fucking DID.

the article also is criticizing the choice to give snow a romance plotline and is like saying that that whole storyline is PROBLEMATIC bc of the power imbalance there and how it's not good optics to have your "oppressed person falling in love with their oppressor" but like. ONCE AGAIN ARTICLE WRITER YOU HAVE MISSED THE WHOLE POINT OF THAT STORYLINE???? ITS NOT MEANT TO BE SOME GRAND, TRUE ROMANCE??? DID YOU EVEN READ THE BOOK????

oh my god they also are saying lucy gray isn't well written??? that she's "little more than a plot device"??? again, did you even READ the book?? THEY ALSO HAD THE GALL TO TALK SHIT ABOUT KATNISS??? THEY SAID "like katniss, lucy gray exhibits no real ability to defend herself in the arena, instead relying almost entirely on coriolanus' sly tactics from the inside to save her" and i— WHAT. W H A T ?! oh this writer FULLY does not understand ANY of thg. katniss ABSOLUTELY had the ability to defend herself in the arena — she was a SKILLED hunter. the difference is she CHOSE not to use those skills to kill her opponents. it wasn't that she didn't have the ability, she didn't have the DESIRE for A LOT of reasons!!!! she didn't want to play into these games, she didn't want to be the spectacle the people watching wanted her to be, she didn't WANT to kill kids that were just like her — thrust into this situation with no other choice for no good reason. this writer is SEVERELY MISSING EVERY SINGLE POINT!!!

oh my god that article was INFURIATING!!!!!

[talkshowboyluvr]

As a follow on post, here's why Coriolanus Snow to me, would have had the same emotions invoked if Treech was his tribute that he had with Lucy Gray.

Coriolanus Snow clearly cares about his tribute winning the Games and along the line also starts caring about Lucy Gray.

So, Treech and Lucy Gray both share quite a few qualities that I believe drew Coriolanus to Lucy Gray.

The biggest reason Coriolanus fell in love with Lucy Gray was obvious — he believed he had a claim over. This feeling would easily be found if he was instead mentoring Treech as he'd have the same experience of people referring to Treech as his own.

Another reason he seems to be so obsessed with Lucy Gray is because he believes he needs to protect her. Of course, Treech clearly known how to an ax and is described as, 'athletic,' but still seemed incapable of fighting properly. Even when he kills Teslee he does so while he knows she's distracted and unable to fight back. (And, if we're going by the movies Treech does seem shorter and lankier than any other male tribute his age.)

Coriolanus attempts to convince himself that Lucy Gray isn't technically district as shes Covey, to feel better about his love for her. But, what he's saying is already grasping at straws, so I'd assume he'd also make up another lie to himself that removed Treech from a district label. Probably something like, "Oh well now he's a Victor, he's basically apart of the Capitol regime!"

The poverty that Lucy Gray is in, is something we can assume movie Treech at the very least shares. Movie Treech's outfit is clearly a lot less tailored than every other tributes and already has dirt all over it before they get into the Zoo. We can assume his life in Seven has the same struggles.

Having families to feed. I've always written Treech to have younger siblings — specifically sisters — and that is definitely similar to Maude Ivory.

Also. The obvious — both Treech and Lucy Gray are extremely attractive people.

Even in Coriolanus' own book descriptions of Treech he is more focused on Treech's look than he is for the other tributes. (This is just the funniest part of the book to me, he seems to insult every tribute who is not Lucy Gray, or simply ignore them, but with Treech he describes his flowing dark hair 😭)

Obviously the plot would change slightly — Treech would be less helpless than Lucy Gray and would be able to kill using his ax, but still would not be overly violent and would rely on sponsors.

Treech would likely not have as many sponsors as Lucy Gray, but as he is again more self sustaining, would still be able to steal from tributes until the snakes.

Treech would save him in bombing, even if just out of instinct as from book Treech we can see his natural reaction is usually to help when shocked. (The embrace.)

Coriolanus could feel the same jealousy he felt about Lucy Grays song just to Treech and Laminas bond. It's clear movie Treech cares about her and spends his time comforting her and I wouldn't be surprised if book Treech was the same. Picture Coriolanus fuming that Treech held her when she cried.

That already builds a small layer of distrust.

The kiss before the Games could happen. Treech is intelligent and sneaky — he spends the entire Games hiding and if he saw playing into Coriolanus' crush as an easier way to win, I think he'd do it.

Treech's death simply wouldn't happen — Coriolanus would have the same wish to have his tribute win the Game and therefore would still put the hankerchief with the Snakes and give him poison.

However, I doubt Treech would use the poison much at all and if Lucy Gray somehow did manage to survive till the Snakes came, she would die there, while Treech could still reach high ground.

Reapers death would definitely be more violent, with Treech probably just axing his head off. I've always imagined it looking a bit like an execution.

Really, Coriolanus would be less likely to be caught, however I think the Dean would still manage it.

The sentence would be lighter as his cheating really didn't impact the Game much and he'd be able to bribe his way to Seven quite easily.

This is where its more speculation. In my own depictions of Treech I lean more towards him being a performer — that juggling routine had to have been sublime — and really just being very similar to Lucy Gray.

Sejanus would still arrive, Coriolanus would still meet Treech (perhaps while he's preforming, perhaps not) and if Treech still feels in Coriolanus' debt, would probably enter some type of romantic relationship with him.

Coriolanus gets jealous easily. Very easily. And based on movie Treech, we can assume Treech is quite sociable, or at the very least has an aura that makes people want to stick with him. Coriolanus would not enjoy that.

Treech would feel the same guilt Lucy Gray felt — more to do with stealing Dills water as she died, having kills that were violent. And these kills would only fuel Coriolanus' fear that Treech (as he felt for Lucy Gray) was dangerous. A cold blooded killer that was using him.

The whole mayfair thing has no real reason as to why I think it would happen, but I can imagine Sejanus would still attempt to aid rebels, Coriolanus would still be forced to kill a second person and then would give Sejanus into Gaul.

Why would the death be blamed on Treech? It could simply be a distrust of Victors, especially those who are clearly fraternising with Peacekeepers and killed in the Arena.

Seven would obviously have woods they could get lost in, Treech is intelligent. Snow slips on his words, Treech has a similar reaction to Lucy Gray.

"Who's the third?"

My old self. Treech naturally isn't falling for that and.

You know the end of the story. It may be a snake simply because Treech sees it as symbolic and we know Seven definitely had snakes as Coriolanus mentions in the book that he guesses Treech is already familiar with them as he runs to the leader board.

And Treech's memory is erased, his ending is left a mystery while Gaul welcomes Snow back home.

This turned into a ramble but 😭😭 this is my own understanding of why bisexual loser could also fall for Treech.

@moreespressoformydepresso @zippiedippievippie this is the explanation you guys asked for LOL :3

[medusas-daughter]

Lord save me from bad takes on the internet.

"Lucy Gray used Coriolanus"

Yes, and? She was a teenager thrown in a game of life and death and he was her only lifeline. She was smart, she played the game. But she never did anything to hurt him. Her only intention was to save herself, as she should.

The beauty of the story being told through Snow's pov is that we'll never actually know Lucy Gray. We only know her through how he sees her and all that he projects on her. Did she love him? Maybe. Was she really trying to seduce him or was he just infatuated with her and she went on with it because she feared he'd give up on her if she refused him? Probably. We'll never know.

I believe her feelings just started becoming real when they went back to 12 and that she genuinely intended to run away with him. But his actions weren't compatible with the kind of man she wanted to spend her life with. So she either ran from him or laid a trap for him, again the beauty is in not knowing because it's all from Snow's paranoid mind's pov.

But seeing people on tiktok laying out their "new theory" Lucy was manipulating him all along she used him just... Please, please read a book. Preferably this one, but anyone will do, please acquire some media literacy.

I'm never one to insist people read the book before analysing a movie. But when it comes to Suzanne Collins, I will gatekeep. Don't be saying things if you haven't read the books.

Because in the book, it is glaringly obvious that Lucy Gray is quite guarded and careful with Coriolanus while in the Capitol, she behaves with him the same way she does on camera or on stage, she's performing. It's her only skill and she's using it to survive. Back in 12, she becomes a person, and that's when Snow's feelings start to decline funny how that works. Away from his Capitol way of life and the promise of a stellar career and power, her quirks and her songs and her covey family suddenly became annoying instead of endearingly exotic.

Collins created a complex relationship, where one of them is very clearly the villain over all, he's one who chooses to use people over and over again and stabs people in the back. And if this villain tries to tell you that the other person is his villain, maybe take it with a grain of salt? And when the other person doesn't act like a saint in excruciating circumstances maybe look at the bigger picture?

[kazz-brekker]

ballad of songbirds and snakes movie thoughts below the cut:

if you had told my past self that in 2023 there would be a hunger games prequel that opens with giving hot young president snow a shirtless scene i would have been like "you're joking" and yet here we are

i think not having snow's inner narration like we did in the book made him seem not quite as totally calculating and selfish since we're seeing him from the outside rather than hearing his thoughts

i.e. snow in the movie disdains sejanus at the beginning of the movie yet seems to have a closer relationship by the end, but in the book we know snow actually never cared for senjanus as much as he pretended to

this kind of comes across in scenes like where dr gaul tells him if he retrieves sejanus from the arena he'll win the plinth prize but snow tells sejanus it's because they're friends but not as much as in the book

hadn't seen rachel zegler or tom blyth in anything before this movie but they were both really good, they WERE lucy gray baird and coriolanus snow

kind of loved the uniforms the students at the academy wore. they look rich but also a bit ugly and also i love that it's "diversity win! in the dystopian fascist society skirts are gender-neutral!"

when reading the book i found myself thinking lucy gray's songs would be a lot more interesting in an audio format and it's true, i did like hearing them a lot more than reading

actually i was so into the music that during the scene where mayfair lipp and billy taupe died i was like "noooo go back to the music i was vibing with that song!"

one of my problems with the og hunger games movies is that they kind of decreased the horror by having the tributes all played by adults so i liked that a lot of the tributes in this movie really did look like teenagers

i kind of expected this going in since a movie need spectacle but i wasn't a huge fan of them adding more of a bloodbath at the beginning, the point is that the tributes don't want to kill each other and haven't yet been successfully condition by the capitol to do so

the movie did gain back some points with coral's "i can't have killed all those people for nothing" moment right before she died, and also lucy gray's reaction to watching dill drink the poisoned water

on a related note it is a little hilarious to me how often people in hollywood films will take poison and then immediately keel over dead. the capitol must have the most effective rat poison in the world considering it took out 3 separate people in like a minute each

sort of wish they had kept the part where the capitol was like "yeah one of the tributes had an asthma attack and died before the games, we sent a veterinarian to help but she couldn't save him" because it was such an encapsulation of their attitudes towards the districts

i am glad they kept the part with reaper arranging the bodies and everyone being more horrified that he ripped up the flag than anyone dying, and also dr gaul being like "we must now interrupt our entertainment of watching teenagers slaughter each other to announce that, sadly, a teenager has died"

lucky flickerman doing the weather report in between events instead of magic tricks like in the book does really drive home how mundane people in the capitol find the hunger games

were lucy gray's lines about katniss kind of cheesy? yes. was i here for them? also yes

the addition of tigris saying that snow looks like his father at the end of the movie was excellent

when i was reading the epilogue of the book i went "oh this is going to make a great ending to the film" and i dare say i was right

i feel like i should reread the hunger games books now that i am adult with a developed brain who can actually understand all the nuances

[oh-three]

You know how I said I probably wasn't gonna watch TBOSBAS today? Well. Apparently my dad didn't actually want to go, so my mom dropped me off at the theater and I watched it myself. And I wasn't wrong- it did live up to the book. It was a masterpiece.

Though I am a bit unhappy at how they changed Reaper's death. I wanted to see the mercy kill that Lucy pulled on him, to end his suffering instead of letting it drag out like Jessup's. Still, I see why they did it; they needed to play off the snake mutt setup to make it easier to understand for those who didn't read the book. And that meant sidelining half the rabies plot, to my great devastation. I did notice that a few of the other deaths were different, but Reaper's upset me the most because of the significance.

What pleases me the most is that Sejanus's arc remained the same; though he did seem a bit more confident in the movie than the book- but it fit him, with the actor they chose. It worked out, and his character still went out the same, and Coryo still sealed his own fate the same. Speaking of which- I absolutely loved the way the rainbow hit the statue of the girl in the end, and the way Donald Sutherland's older Snow's voice played right after that faded out. It plays perfectly with my Lucy Gray/Katniss comparison post from a few months back. Katniss is Lucy Gray's mockingjay, and she was the destruction of Snow's reign, even if she wasn't directly his killer. Because, after all, while they did kill a few people along the way, Lucy Gray and Katniss Everdeen were not killers by nature.

They did well with this movie, and with conveying the themes from the book. They complement each other, and the rest of the series. I really do hope Suzanne Collins writes another.

[kittlyns]

This isn’t gonna be cohesive cuz my brain doesn’t work like that anymore and also it’s 1am and I’m typing this on a shitty ipad so. Literally don’t expect anything from me.

In regards to TBOSAS: it is disappointing to see so many people seemingly missing the point or, worse, outright ignoring it to babygirl-ify Snow. I know this is the villain / morally gray / monstrosity appreciation website and I’ll partake of that myself every so often. I also think the movie dulled down some of his actions and made it murkier/harder to tell just how manipulative/conniving/self-serving he was being the entire time. But this is a character who knowingly makes choices that, over time, lead to the deaths of nearly 1500 children + the people in the Districts who suffer and die under his oppression. We all know this going into it.

The story is not meant to be a redemption for Snow, nor is it blaming Lucy Gray for how he turns out. The book at least is very explicit that every choice he made was made willingly in a pursuit of power. It is his own warped view of the world and his inability to trust that turns to paranoia and then turns him against Lucy Gray. It is that pursuit of power that leads to him betraying Sejanus, and it can be argued that his inability to trust ALSO plays a part in that.

The romanticizing of his behaviors regarding Lucy Gray are also kinda sickening. He’s not sexy for saying it’d be best for Lucy Gray to be held in a cage in the Capitol so he can keep an eye on her. That wasn’t meant to be romantic. Him constantly referring to her as “My [Lucy]/Mine” is not romantic. Him lying awake at night thinking about her is, again, not romantic. Collins is demonstrating his obsessive tendencies that she outright tells you about in the first goddamn chapter of the book. They’re not #goals, he tries (and perhaps succeeds, depending on your interpretation of it, although if you think they’re #goals, I don’t trust your interpretation of anything) to kill her. Again, I realize this is the toxic relationship website. But I just really don’t think you can respect Lucy Gray’s character OR the story that is being told if all you can take away from it is “Young Snow Hot 🥵”

There’s so much more I could say about the ignoring Sejanus’ entire character arc to make jokes abt Snow being soooo gay for him (during a scene in which he has ALREADY sealed Sejanus’ fate, willingly and knowingly), amongst other things, but I’m tired and I’ve already written more than I intended to. It’s just exhausting to see a story with such potential for discussion and character examination be boiled down to “white boy hot, Lucy Gray is just my vehicle for romantic and sexual fantasy with hot white boy, Sejanus is also that but for gay boy instead. What do you mean there are other characters in this story.” Ohhhh it makes me sick. Whatever tho.

[assim-eu-sou]

Have you read The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes? 🎼🕊️🪱

If you have not read it, what do you think about the title? What characters represent birds and snakes?

*spoiler alert*

If you have read it, how birds and snakes play a part in the narrative? Also what do you think about Mockingjay role in the original trilogy and this prequel?

Thank you.

@curiousnonny

Finally, I'm answering this! As a Hadestown fan, the title definitely intrigued me before I got to read the book. I think it's an excellent title overall, and I can't really imagine anything else, even though it is a bit longer that the trilogy titles.

I see Lucy Gray as a bird, of course. Songbird, caged bird, you name it. In another post, I said this:

lucky flickerman’s bird made to repeat flattering things about dean highbottom and being caged up after showing too much agency = lucy gray baird saying what she needed to say to gain support and coriolanus snow’s desire to keep her to himself

I also see Sejanus as a bird, caged in a different way, and somewhat of a canary in a coal mine. Since moving to the Capitol, he's like a parrot plucked from the forest that lives in a very fancy cage. And he's the first one to raise the alarm about things that should NOT be happening.

Of course Snow would be a snake. He's allergic to doing anything that isn't for his own self interest in some way. And everyone he touches suffers somehow. Lucy Gray, Sejanus, Clemensia, and then the people he goes on to poison. Dr. Gaul is also a snake. Aside from her whole tank of snakes thing, she's always sowing some sort of poison into the lives of both the students and the public.

On to the next question. It's interesting how we see birds and snakes cropping up. Snow hates the mockingjays, and wishes he could just shoot them all instead of collecting them when he's in 12. He uses a jabberjay to record and ultimately doom Sejanus, and in a way, that bird takes on a snake role. Then, of course, he's shooting at all the birds in the woods as he lets all of his insecurities with Lucy Gray come to a head.

On the other hand, Lucy Gray has a snake at the reaping, the reasoning for which later comes to light: there was never a fair chance of escaping the reaping for her, and she wanted a last laugh somehow. The snakes poison Clemensia due to Snow's lies, a and Snow uses that knowledge to give Lucy Gray an advantage.

Back to Mockingjays. They're such a good symbol already: the creation whose very existence made a mockery of the Capitol, but at its essence was just a songbird. Katniss' entire existence and course of action seemed enough of a reason for Snow to hate and fear her beforehand, but exacerbates the way it must haunt him. Good! The songbirds prevailed. They always will.

Anyway, I hope that answered these questions well enough :)