#in this essay I'll be going over how these two are the most toxic lovers in all of gensh—//voice fades as im pulled off stage

[licapitano]

The Sun and The Moon

[apollosgiftofprophecy]

The Copollogism Essays - Part 1: The Tent Scene

SO. Here we are. I have absolutely ascended to insane over two fictional characters' relationship by this point, and this will merely cement that into place.

I do not know how often I will update this, but rest assured I have it all figured out! I'll update with links below for easy access to the other posts as I analyze our favorite dumpsterfire ship >:3

Believe me when I say I have Thoughts™️

These essays will detail the scenes Apollo & Commodus have shared, as well as a look into how it affected them and we'll also take a look into where it stands in the toxic relationship territory (The answer may surprise you. Or not. I am not quite sure myself at this point in time LMAO).

Additionally, I will be giving my own thoughts on a few things I've noticed within the series. I will refrain from talking about my own personal headcanons and focus on what we're given in the books, as well as any and all historical facts from Commodus's life that relate to their lives/relationship.

From The Book: Part 1 (The Tent) ~ Part 2 (The Assassination) ~ Part 3 (Lester's Reaction) ~ Part 4 (Leo's Questions/Seeing Commodus Again) ~ Part 5 (The Arena) ~ Part 6 (The Waystation) ~ Part 7 (The Yacht) ~ Part 8 (The Final Moment)

Analysis: Part 1 (Apollo and Commodus as Individuals) ~ Part 2 (Toxic Relationship?) ~ Part 3 (Codependent - Or Is It?) ~ Part 4 (Other Thoughts)

Let us kick off with the infamous: Tent Scene.

The Tent Scene

All quotations from The Dark Prophecy

Let's break it down.

I could certainly sympathize with his feelings. Marcus Aurelius was the sternest, most powerful father in the world aside from my own father, Zeus. Both loved to lecture. Both loved to remind their offspring how lucky they were, how privileged, how far short they fell of their fathers’ expectations. And of course, both had gorgeous, talented, tragically underappreciated sons.

How their fathers treat them is certainly a focal point of their relationship, with Apollo knowing enough about Commodus's feelings on Marcus Aurelius to be willing to compare it to his own relationship with Zeus (which is...honestly worse than Commodus & Marcus's).

“My father made me his junior co-emperor when I was fifteen, Apollo. It’s stifling. All duty, all the time. Then he married me off to that horrid girl Bruttia Crispina. Who names their child Bruttia?”

We're told that Commodus has been co-emperor since he was 15 - certainly a young age by modern standards, but rather par for the course in Roman times. However, that does not mean the pressure of being co-emperor wouldn't be a lot on 15-18 year old Commodus.

He is a teenager, after all. And he is a teenager that is rather abhorred to responsibility.

I didn’t mean to laugh at the expense of his distant wife…but part of me was pleased when he talked badly about her. I wanted all his attention for myself.

Oh, Apollo sweetie...you have issues too XD

Wanting to keep your lover's attention to yourself? Yeah, sorry Apollo, but that's not a good sign. This just goes to show that they are both toxic influences, and they brought out the worst in each other.

“I’ll make peace with the barbarians,” he said immediately. “Then we’ll go home and celebrate with games. The best games, all the time. I’ll gather the most exotic animals in the world. I’ll fight them personally in the Colosseum—tigers, elephants, ostriches.” I laughed at that. “Ostriches? Have you ever even seen an ostrich?” “Oh, yes.” He got a wistful look in his eyes. “Amazing creatures. If you trained them to fight, perhaps designed some sort of armor for them, they would be incredible.” “You’re a handsome idiot.” I threw another grape, which bounced off his forehead. A brief flash of anger washed over his face.

Leaving this here for future reference but we WILL be coming back to it!!!! In a future post!!!!

I knew my sweet Commodus could have an ugly temper. He was a little too fond of slaughter. But what did I care? I was a god. I could speak to him in ways no one else dared.

Apollo is the ONE PERSON who is able to challenge Commodus. And from the previous passage, we can infer Commodus is not used to it, even though he is well aware Apollo is the one with all the power in this relationship - although, he sure does like forgetting about that detail a lot lmao

Commodus looked at me, panic in his eyes. “Go,” I said, as calmly as I could, forcing down my misgivings. “You will always have my blessings. You will do fine.”

A sweet thing I find in this section is; 1) Commodus looks to Apollo for comfort, for some sort of it will be fine; and 2) that Apollo is encouraging despite his misgivings. Apollo is aware what kind of leader Commodus could be. He knows there is a high chance of his lover becoming a worse version of himself.

In fact, he even admits it;

But I already suspected what would happen: the young man I knew and loved was about to be consumed by the emperor he would become.

But he tries to go the you have my support, you have my love route. Romantic, but ultimately, it's not enough to keep Commodus from the path he goes down.

into the mouth of the wolf, Apollo says. Because this is the last time he truly sees the man he loved.

The next time they meet? It will be a crazed, paranoid tyrant he has to end - and in doing so, breaks the promise he once made.

He rose and kissed me one last time. His breath smelled of grapes. Then he left the tent—walking, as the Romans would say, into the mouth of the wolf.

This whole, entire scene? It's drenched in a tragic aura. It starts out light and teasing, but it ends with this.

This is their final kiss. This is the final time they get to see each other without the barrier of betrayal between them.

And that, is truly heartbreaking.

[leechysmile]

I’m curious what’s ur favorite joey ship? Feel free to go on a rant about Them I wanna hear it

Hi anon! So, I have a few favorites really! Some more problematic than others, fair warning. It's a decently wide range. So I'll list a few and give a short summary!

Do note that I like many more besides these though 💞

Puppyshipping- Seto/Joey:

This is the first Joey ship I fell in love with and the one you'll see a lot of on this blog. Both because I love it and because it undeniably has a lot more fanart/fics than the others. I'm a sucker for enemies to lovers and love the wide range of potential here. Be it something extremely toxic or a slowburn as long as I can see it happening I'm in 👀

Wishshipping- Yugi/Joey:

These two are so sweet together and right now I am particularly vibing with Omegaverse AUs with Alpha Yugi and Omega Joey. I don't really see a lot of Omegaverse with them in general, let alone in this way.

This ship I generally see as on the "wholesome" side, though I use that word loosely. It's mostly sweet, but there is a fair bit of untapped potential regarding just how quickly Joey jumped into "I would literally die for you" territory. While that may sound sweet on the surface to some people, it also suggests an arguably dangerous level of attachment. Because what happens to Joey if for some reason Yugi leaves, dies, etc? Potentially, he could fall apart.

Puffshipping- Ryou/Joey:

I've seen this one get more popular lately and I am SO here for it. I think it'd be really fun to explore a scenario where they're both lost alone in the woods or something. I can also see Ryou taking things he finds fun too far and scaring the shit out of Joey. I like to headcanon Ryou with a fear kink, whether it's being scared or scaring others.

Irateshipping- Marik/Joey:

How can I see Marik calling Joey his doll and NOT ship it? I don't care if it's toxic, I love it. I'm not going to turn down more wholesome forms of it, but I DEFINITELY lean toward the toxic/abusive angle for them. Or, in the case of several roleplays I've done, it starting pretty chill and then entering darker territory because of x reason.

Fadeshipping- Yami Marik/Joey:

Listen, do you know how much potential is here? A lot. I could totally see Yami Marik coming back in some way and deciding Joey is his victim to kill after failing to with the Winged Dragon of Ra. That's a great jumping-off point that can go in many directions.

Brightshipping- Mokuba/Seto/Joey:

Alright, I already lost a mutual over talking about Tabloidshipping, but here's a worse one I like 💀

So, since I like Riskshipping (Mokuba/Joey), Tabloidshipping (Seto/Mokuba), & Puppyshipping... it shouldn't be too terribly surprising that I enjoy combining all three. For this one, I generally see it as most likely that Mokuba would come onto Joey or it's a Season 0 vibe where Seto and Mokuba use Joey as a plaything.

Gangshipping- Hirutani/Joey:

There is a lot of untapped potential here, particularly for the level of toxicity. I honestly could see Hirutani still coming after Joey again. The guy seems like the type who'd sooner drop dead than accept a loss. And he did lose Joey—Twice. Both when Joey left the gang and when he tried forcing Joey back into it. Also, the look he gives Joey in one of the manga panels looks like bedroom eyes to me.

I don't know, I really love angst and this ship is perfect for that. I also love rescue scenarios... which this ship can also lead to. At the very least Yugi and Atem would help Joey once they know there's a problem.

Alright, so I didn't really go into specifics, but that's because I couldn't decide on just one and I can write essays on any of these. Feel free to send asks if you're curious about a specific ship, be it these ones or others!

[kali-writes-meta]

Oscar and Ironwood Part 2: The Toxic Bromance

I apologise for taking so long to post this essay. Recent events haven't been conducive to a contemplative state of mind. In Part 1 I covered the pile of rather ominous foreshadowing of Oscar and Ironwood's relationship, now let's see how it actually played out.

Oscar and Ironwood's relationship has the rhythm of a toxic bromance story. Ironwood is pining for someone else to come sweep him off his feet, and he gets Oscar instead. Ironwood makes no bones about the fact that he would prefer Ozpin, and spends their every moment together trying to turn Oscar into Ozpin. Then, at a dramatic moment, Oscar saves Ironwood by doing something that Ozpin would never do, proving that Oscar is the better man for this moment. And does Ironwood thank him? No, he's still too busy pining for Ozpin, unable to appreciate the man standing in front of him. Finally, Oscar makes one last attempt to reach Ironwood, who cruelly dumps him. It's a perfect example of a toxic bromance.

But, maybe I'm wrong. There are people who say that the final scene with Oscar and Ironwood in Volume 7 had Ironwood acting completely different from how he had previously acted towards Oscar. I didn't see that big of a difference, but maybe I missed something. Let's look at every single interaction between the two characters and see what we find.

When they first meet Ironwood warmly greets a bunch of people he hasn't seen in over a year, but doesn't ask about the one stranger in the group. It's a small incivility that could be put down to the stress of discussing highly classified information, if he didn't then proceed to discuss highly classified information in front of a COMPLETE STRANGER. Whether you see it as an etiquette failure or a security failure or both, it's clearly a failure.

Ironwood announces a new plan that will undo and replace Ozpin's plan, since Ozpin is gone and he has to use his "best judgement". Then he is introduced to the strange kid as "the next Ozpin" (Really, Qrow? You could have worded it better than that.)

Ironwood is overjoyed. He smiles broadly and quickly races to Oscar's side, even going down on one knee in front of him, at the thought that Oscar might not really be Oscar.

Let's pause on the kneeling bit. Who is Ironwood kneeling for? One kneels before a child, one's lover, or one's monarch. Ironwood might be kneeling before the child Oscar, but he NEVER kneels before Oscar again, so he's not kneeling for the child. He's kneeling before a lover or a monarch. I highly doubt it's for a lover, and "monarch" seems closer to how he was treating Ozpin earlier. But it is definitely someone for whom Ironwood feels a passionate bond. There's no doubt that this is the most emotional we have seen Ironwood to this date.

After Ironwood goes down on one knee, he learns that this is not the Wizard he has been looking for. Ozpin.exe has gone offline, and only Oscar is at home.

Ironwood is crushed. Instead of responding to Oscar's introduction and without saying a single word to the young man he's just been introduced to he looks away from him,

turns his back on Oscar,

and walks away!

If one of the main cast had been that rude to Oscar we still wouldn't have heard the end of it, but for some reason Ironwood gets a free pass.

Ironwood: Ozpin told us that too, once upon a time. (turning to face them) At least we have you, Oscar. You're safe here in Atlas. Maybe together we can figure out how to bring Ozpin back.

That's an interesting statement. Notice he still hasn't exchanged pleasantries with Oscar. He's saying that Oscar is safe, but he's not saying that he will take care of Oscar or do anything at all for him, except "figure out how to bring Ozpin back". He's setting the terms of their relationship at the start. He doesn't see Oscar as his own person, but only as an obstacle he has to get through to reach Ozpin.

Note the discrepancy between Ironwood's tone and his wording. Research has shown that some people pay more attention to tone than they do to word choice, so when there's a discrepancy between tone and wording they'll give more weight to the tone and dismiss the actual words. (It's a valuable tool for unscrupulous salesmen and con artists.) Ironwood's tone is warm and friendly towards Oscar and apparently it fooled some viewers, but his words are much cooler and less friendly.

Oscar notices the discrepancy, and it confuses him. He responds first to the warm tone and then to the cool wording.

Oscar: (grinning) Thank you, sir. (stands at attention) I mean, uh, general. Uh, Ironwood? (smiling awkwardly)

At this point their relationship is spelled out. Ironwood is deeply disappointed and dissatisfied that Oscar isn't Ozpin, and is going to try his best to turn Oscar into Ozpin. Oscar, responding to Ironwood's warm tone, is going to do his best to cooperate for Ironwood's sake. Ironwood's stance reminds me of what was said to another Atlesian back in Volume 1:

Port: "So the outcome did not fall in your favor. ...(I)nstead of fretting about what you don't have, savor what you do. Hone your skills, perfect every technique, and be... the best person you can be."

Ironwood is fretting about what he doesn't have. He isn't interested in helping Oscar be the best Oscar he can be. Ironwood just wants to turn Oscar into Ozpin as fast as possible.

We see the difference in the two mens' attitudes play out in the mine clearing story. Oscar expresses concern about how they are treating Ironwood.

Oscar: Ruby, hiding things from Ironwood, doesn't that feel like what Ozpin did to us?

But Ironwood shows a lack of concern for Oscar by not inviting Oscar to a surprise party Ironwood throws for Oscar's friends. If he was concerned for Oscar, why not invite him? But if Ironwood's only concern is turning Oscar into Ozpin, it makes sense that he would not even think to invite the young man. Such an action would not serve Ironwood's purpose, so why do it?

Later, Ironwood begins training Oscar.

Ironwood: You might not hear Oz anymore, Oscar, but that doesn’t mean we can’t try to jog him loose.

Once again, Ironwood's tone of voice is warm and friendly, but his words are not. Notice that Ironwood doesn't say that he is training Oscar for Oscar's benefit. His sole stated reason for training Oscar is to "jog (Ozpin) loose". Ironwood has a good reason for believing this sparring technique will work to bring out Ozpin, but that topic deserves an essay of its own, so I'll cover it separately later. However, it doesn't work to jog Ozpin loose. Instead it helps Oscar improve and make more friends, to become more "the best Oscar he can be."

When sparring doesn't work to turn Oscar into Ozpin Ironwood falls back on the classic trope of the lovesick swain, he shows the substitute the special place where he and his idol made special memories.

Ironwood: I hoped bringing you down here might jog some memories.

This interaction is the third time that we've seen Ironwood speak to Oscar, and it's the third time he's said he wants to turn Oscar into someone else. There's no canon evidence that they have any other relationship at this point.

But, I can hear some people saying, how is this different from what the main cast did to Oscar? Didn't they treat him like a walking meat suit as well? It's true that in a fit of rage Jaune accused Oscar of being Ozpin in disguise, but he quickly dropped the delusion and apologized to Oscar at the next opportunity, and that was the end of it. There's never been another time when they have treated Oscar as if he was Ozpin when Oscar was in control of his own body. Ironwood is a different story. He persists in trying to turn Oscar into Ozpin.

For the third time, his tone of voice is warm and friendly, but his words are all about how he doesn't want to be here with Oscar. He wants to be with someone else. He seems to look forward to a day when he believes Oscar will be gone and Ozpin will stand in his place (in spite of all the evidence to the contrary) to Oscar's noticable discomfort.

Oscar: It feels strange, knowing that part of me helped come up with all this.

Ironwood: You’ll get used to it, I’m sure. Eventually, you won’t even know who’s who anymore.

Then, in that special spot, Ironwood tells Oscar his dream for the two of them.

Ironwood: We... didn’t always see eye to eye, but... I wish I could ask Ozpin what he thought of all of this.

As is common with lovesick swains, Ironwood is looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses. They didn't merely not "always see eye to eye". Ironwood was constantly arguing with Ozpin, keeping secrets from Ozpin (Penny), and going behind Ozpin's back to undercut Ozpin's authority (taking over the Vytal Festival). It's doubtful how much he would listen to Ozpin if Ozpin was there, but Ironwood is still making himself heartsick imagining the encouragement that Ozpin would give him. (You can tell he's viewing the past tinted with nostalgia, because if Ozpin were really there Ironwood would be getting a tongue-lashing.)

Imagine how dehumanizing this must feel to Oscar. It's entirely to the young man's credit that he does what he does next.

Oscar: Well, I can tell you what I think. The path you’re heading down where you’re the only one with the answers, where you do the thing you think is right no matter the cost, it’s not going to take you anywhere good.

Oscar has been giving Ironwood what he thinks Ironwood wants, to no avail. Now he gives Ironwood what Oscar thinks Ironwood needs.

And it seems to help Ironwood open up a little bit.

Ironwood: We have to stop Salem. Nothing matters more.

Oscar: Some things matter more, I think. Keeping our humanity. It’s what makes us different from her.

Ironwood: Sometimes I worry that’s her greatest advantage. Without humanity, does she still feel fear? Does she ever hesitate? When Salem hit Beacon, even with all my ships, all of my soldiers... I was no match for her. I’ve never felt so helpless. The way she told me she was there.

Oscar: It’s okay to be afraid. You just can’t let that fear control you.

Ironwood: I am not going to end up with Lionheart. Do you believe in me?

Oscar: I do believe in you, but not only you. I think the best thing you could do is sit down and talk with the people you’re most afraid to.

And how does Ironwood express his gratitude for Oscar's help?

Ironwood: (chuckles) Now you are starting to sound like him.

By denying Oscar's humanity once again.

Then comes Jacques' ball --, er, dinner party. Oscar is worried about what will happen to Ironwood there.

Oscar: Ironwood's going to be locked in a room at his rival's own dinner party. I know Jacques says he's happy to moderate, but all that really means is he'll be the one controlling the conversation.

Ironwood doesn't appear to show the same concern for Oscar, but drags the young man along into a potentially dangerous situation. Why? It's not for anyone's entertainment. It's not so Oscar can testify before the Council, which is the excuse for bringing the others. Oscar's secrets are not ones that Ironwood wants out. The only plausible reason left is so that a 14 year old kid can provide a world leader with advice and emotional support.

To everyone's surprise, that's what happens.

Jacques' treason and Watts' shenanigans come to the surface, culminating in a simultaneous cyber attack with a major DOS, riot, and Grimm invasion. Ironwood freezes in the clinch, unable to decide what to do.

Clover: Sir, we need ground support now.

Robyn: What we need is to start evacuating Mantle. If it's completely overrun, it's not going to be safe anywhere. Use the fleet to get--

Ironwood: If I move the fleet, then Atlas is vulnerable. I… I tried to keep the kingdom safe. And now we're losing everything.

It's Oscar that comes to Ironwood's rescue.

Oscar: General? Earlier, you asked for my advice.

Ironwood: I wanted Ozpin's advice.

Ouch. For the fourth time, Ironwood shows that he sees Oscar as nothing but a poor substitute for Ozpin. But then Oscar shines.

Oscar: And his advice probably would've been to keep your secrets. When we first got here, you already knew that wasn't the right course. You had a new plan.

Ironwood: It's time to give up on that plan. It's all falling apart.

Oscar: The panic you were worried about? It's already happening. The secrets you're keeping? They're about to be in the open anyway. It's time. Tell the truth.

Here is where Oscar does what Ozpin couldn't do, proving that he's not just a second-rate substitute for the real thing. This time he was better than Ozpin.

At this point Oscar has just pulled Ironwood's fat out of the fire, and what does he get? The only thanks Ironwood gives him since they first met, right before Oscar is literally told to go to his room.

Ironwood: Thank you. Oscar, I think it's time you get back to the Academy.

Afterwards Oscar tells Ruby, "He's finally choosing the truth over fear. We should do the same" and with her permission tells Ironwood the rest of the story.

Ironwood -- some folks think he took the news well. I don't. That looks to me like monumental "just this side of throwing up" shock, to be followed by monumental rage. As upsetting as he finds the news of Salem's immortality, he's even more upset that his adored hero kept secrets from him.

Ironwood: (distraught) Why? Why would Oz keep this from us? From the people who trusted him?

(You mean the person who went behind his back and undermined his authority?)

Oscar: He was worried you would lose hope. We're sorry we kept it from you, too. We didn't know who to trust. I figured you should know before you make any… sacrifices.

It's Oscar who prods Ironwood away from his pain and back to the present.

Oscar: Sir? What are you gonna do?

Ironwood: I… (collects himself) All we can do for the moment is what we can to save Mantle. That's what's in front of us.

Oscar: (smiling) He'd be proud of you. You're bringing the hope that Atlas was meant to inspire. A city in the sky is held to a higher standard.

Ironwood: You say that... like you were ther--

One again, the only compliment Ironwood can give Oscar, even after Oscar has done what Ozpin couldn't do, is to tell him he sounds like Ozpin. The man needs to work on some new lines.

Oscar goes back to JNPR's room with an escort of robot guards. Ironwood goes to deal with the crisis, and makes a good show until Cinder and Salem rattle him. The good news is that his monumental shock subsides. The bad news is that it's followed by monumental rage.

In the middle of a battle Ironwood decides to arrest the allies whom he now considers questionable, instead of using the age-old tactic of dealing with such a problem by sending them to the front line. (You can tell these boys haven't fought a war in a while.) He sends an Army unit to capture a same-sized Marines unit, and things go as well as could be expected. Meanwhile Neo goes to retrieve the Lamp of Knowledge, currently in Oscar's possession, from Oscar and JNR, and things go as well as could be expected.

Then in the middle of the Great Escape, Oscar turns back to try one last time to do what Ozpin couldn't do and would no longer have tried to do -- talk sense into Ironwood. Talking sense into Ironwood is something Ozpin had been failing at since Volume 2, and going by what he said to Oscar about Hazel during the Battle of Haven, "He's wounded in a way that cannot be healed", we can safely say that by now Ozpin would have given up on Ironwood as a lost cause. But, just like with Hazel, Oscar is going to try.

Their sixth and final interaction starts with Ironwood repeating basically what he said in the other five interactions, another variation on, " Are you Ozpin yet?" Even after Oscar has done for him what Ozpin wouldn't do, he still wants Ozpin over Oscar.

Ironwood: And... whom do I have the pleasure of speaking with?

Oscar: Still just me.

Then the conversation takes a different turn. Ironwood knows he's crossed a line, and he knows Oscar knows. The warm and friendly tone is gone. But Oscar tries to de-escalate the situation.

Ironwood: It was smart of you not to bring the Lamp down here. I wouldn’t trust me either right now.

Oscar: Trust is what I’m hoping to fix. I know we can still figure this out, all of it, together. Please.

Ironwood: Do you intend to fight me?

Oscar: No. That’s exactly what she wants.

Note that Ironwood anticpates a beating for what he's done. As the adult in a room with a teenage boy, HE should be the one pointing out the importance of not being bullied, manipulated, or coerced into doing anything stupid. Instead it's the teenage boy's job to point it out to him.

I've posted about this conversation in detail before, so I just want to make three points this time. The first point is that Ironwood's refusal to admit he's afraid is what triggers his violence.

Ironwood: You still think I’m afraid?

Oscar: We all are. It’s what we do in our fear that reveals--

Ironwood: That’s easy for you to say!

The second point is that Oscar finally understands what Ozpin meant about some people being "wounded in a way that can't be healed." Whether he agrees with Ozpin is something we'll find out in Volume 8, but he understands Ozpin better now.

Finally we have the end of Ironwood's toxic bromance with Oscar. And just as he did at the beginning, he insists on being the one to set the terms.

Ironwood: I am done letting others’ inability to see the big picture get in the way of doing what’s right. Robyn, the council, this kingdom... even you.

Oscar: Then you’re as dangerous as she is, James.

Ironwood: James is what my friends call me. To you… it’s General.

That's pretty much the way I saw it play out while watching the episodes in real time. I missed the discrepancy in tone and word choice the first time around; in my defense I'm a Southerner and used to hearing violent death threats dripping from honeyed lips. But I saw no discrepancy in Ironwood's behavior from beginning to end. He always wanted Oscar to be someone he wasn't, and when it became clear that Oscar was never going be what he wanted Oscar to be, Ironwood threw him away like a petulant child throwing away a broken toy. This wasn't the man I wanted Ironwood to be, but it's the same man we've seen since the beginning -- brave, charming, intelligent, and fatally short-sighted.