#in another fandom my position of arguing that a character is bi has been called homophobic.

[charcubed]

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[masterthespianduchovny]

As much as I understand the need for queer representation, queer shipping around mlm ships tend to be misogynistic as fuck. Doubly so if one of the male characters has a canon female love interest. They have to shit on her and "punish" her for interfering with a ship that isn't canon and was never going to be canon.

And that's important to note because, within the last few years, fans of these ships frame these relationships as barriers to their preferred ship or they get mad that there isn't an open ended to pretend these two characters ended up together.

As if this is somehow the fault of the female characters and not the writers. Most importantly, it overlooks the fact that, more times than not, these character sexualities were considered and there is a vague outline of where they might end up. It's unfortunate that queerness isn't often considered, actually very little, but it's not okay to engage in misogynistic rhetoric all because your mlm ship didn't happen.

From my own personal experience, a prime example is Steggy.

Steve is framed as straight. Maybe there's a chance that his bi--idk. But the MCU has always positioned him as being into women with the subtext that he'll end up with a woman. Yet, because he ended up with Peggy, she's constantly attacked and doesn't "deserve" him because she didn't know him as long as Bucky. She's been called all sorts of derogatory things, slandered, criticized for random bullshit, etc. Reduced to just her reproductive parts, having ageist remarks leveled at her, and so forth.

Most of this didn't exist before Endgame, but after Endgame, the attacks are non stop. People are triggered whenever she comes her. All because Cap chose her over someone he wasn't even interested in. All because fans shipped him and Bucky together and the MCU didn't bend to their will.

Another example: Darvey. Harvey and Donna from Suits.

No one has to like a character, but usually, the way certain fans rip into Donna usually ends up with it being a Marvey shipper. They'll contort truth, ignore details, and color her in the worst possible light to prove how she's bad for Harvey, yet ignore all of Harvey's bullshit to prove how he and Mike are MFEO.

Let's be clear: I don't fucking care if people ship non canon ships or think two other characters, whether or not they're the same gender, are better together. However, When you're being misogynistic and sexist to upload your OTP, you can rightly fuck off. It's so easy to ship what you like without bringing that bullshit into it.

Tragically, many of these critics are women who have massive internalized misogyny, but believe they are being progressive, inclusive, and ship without prejudice. If you're tearing women down to uplift any ship, even if it's queer, that's not progressive and feeds into the patriarchy.

It's okay to prefer something else, it's not okay to feed into a pre-existing, harmful, and sexist narrative.

And it's really bothersome because these same people call themselves trying to validate the LBGTQ community, many of these shippers are straight (which this opinion is based on various discourses and criticisms of how gay characters are written in these stories and dialogue surrounding them) and ironically end up invalidating Bi, Pan, and NB people.

Some of these ships are due to these characters being hot, which is fine.

Other times it's due to chemistry, which is also fine.

But as another person argued years ago, one of the reasons why mlm shipping is so popular and prevalent is because male dynamics are actually fleshed out and explored meaningfully. This leads to wanting to ship characters who have real relationships, conflicts, and history with each other no matter how small or large.

However, the issue comes in for some because it's not canon. These meaningful relationships aren't romantic and many women tend to want some romance included, which isn't a bad thing. But when you know the romance will never happen, it's easy to get upset about that. And they know people who ship canon pairings have that over them, which is infuriating.

Which is understandable.

Regardless, diminishing, trivializing, and insulting women is not okay, esp when some of these women have the relationships with men that are usually reserved for male dynamics.

Donna and Harvey have a long, complicated relationship that is based on a professional dynamic, friendship, and romantic yearning. This was established in the first season and didn't come out of nowhere, yet people either ignore that, play it as one sided, go on and on about why they couldn't be just friends (they never were), and hilariously, refer to it as fan service.

Peggy and Steve develop a friendship of sorts, are supportive of one another, genuinely are in love with each other, and have worked alongside each other is criticized because Peggy didn't know Steve as long as Bucky. Appalling things are said about her.

Thing is: these aren't the only fandoms that do this. Trust and believe, whenever there is a major male pairing, if any woman is canonically paired with ether one of them, she's being attacked and called gross things. That's not okay even in the name of representation. If you genuinely hate this female character because of who she is and not because of her gender, I get that. However, a lot of it is gender based and it's quite obvious when reading these criticisms.

Wanting better and more representation doesn't excuse or justify shitty behavior.

Lastly, people factor in compulsive heterosexuality regarding their criticisms of various straight pairings. That's a validate take, however, we need to be honest about our issues with certain pairings rather than piling on undeserved hate towards female characters, and then have nuanced conversations about what this means in context to that specific series.

No. You're not going to have these conversations with show runners, writers, and actors. I get this. But some of you need to stop harassing others and acting like assholes because they don't support your pairing (which they don't have to). If you believe Steve is bisexual, then stop fucking harassing people who ship him with Peggy. If deep, meaningful relationships are important, then stop undermining them to push a ship. And stop turning women into fucking mascots in your fanfic and fan art to prop up your ship--that shit is so dehumanizing. Often times, when these shippers don't hate the women, they only exist to say, "when will these two silly kids get together?" OR "I'mg lad you two silly kids finally got together."

Turning a woman into a mascot isn't any better than harming her or killing her to fuel a man's story--even if the man is gay.

Ironically, I'm less likely to see this from wlw ships or ships that has more queer support and than het support.

Quite interesting.

[louise-echoes]

Why you shouldn't ship Sea Fairy with Men

This is a rewrite of my old post called "Why FireSea and FireMoon are problematic", admittedly very sloppily written and involving a lot of emotional biases (In fact, this is the same post, just, edited). I'm instead choosing to remake this into an informative post on why you shouldn't pair Sea Fairy with male cookies. In order to explain why though, I'm gonna have to tackle the most commonly used arguments, because in all brutal honesty they're very repetitive and they're very weak and bad. a. "She's in love with the moon, not Moonlight." *Sigh* Straight off the bat- this is plain wrong. It's been shown time and time again that "The Moon" in context of Sea Fairy refers to Moonlight- Whether in-game(Ovenbreak Relationships), in bonus content(CookieWars' ending cutscene), external media (The music video, merchandise), or social media (teasing posts), The Moon always refers to Moonlight from the lens of Sea Fairy. That is without taking into consideration the evidence that Moonlight and The Moon are interchangeably the same (See: Wizard Cookie calling both of them mistress, Moonlight being referred to as the moon in her costumes). So, no, you cannot deny their connection. It's a much better look for you to acknowledge their relationship and be on your merry way than it is to fight on the losing hill that is denying this. There is evidence on both ends of the characters. b. "How is she gay?" Sea Fairy's central writing point is her love for another woman, how it empowers her and helps her overcome the curse that keeps her from living her life. I have yet to write a full analysis of this couple and why it means so much, but you need to realize that it's not just a "hinted crush" - It's an actual relationship between two women with weight, depth, and a lot of importance to it. No one is obligated to ship SeaMoon, only acknowledge and respect it- However, as it stands, most people who argue on the validity of Sea Fairy's lesbianism always seem to veer into slander territory and highkey lesbophobia (I'm looking at you, Tiggyloo). c. "Has DevSis ever said Sea Fairy is gay? No." This is why it's called coding, you can't reasonably expect the company that doesn't confirm anything to pay basic respect to one of its most queerbaited ships. SeaMoon is downplayed by DevSisters and the fandom alike, which is why Sea Fairy fans (most of whom are sapphics and lesbians) are outspoken about this character's sexuality. You should at least keep in mind the importance of this character to an underrepresented side of the fandom, steer away from provoking them rather than try force the ideal that they're wrong... because they really aren't. For the record, because I know I technically haven't really answered the question: Sea Fairy is a character who's central writing point is her love for another women, with no positive relationship with men except for one (who wants nothing to do with her for the record, SeaFire doesn't float either). There is little room to interpret that as anything else, and if you want to argue otherwise... Well, sorry to pull the carpet from under you, but if this doesn't hold weight then neither does anything else. d. "You don't have to follow canon" No, you don't, but it's not about following canon. It's about having the basic decency not to undermine something that's important to people. e. "It doesn't hurt anyone" Actually, you'd be surprised how undermining an important WLW relationship can push people away and feel a group unwelcome. This fandom is oversaturated with MLM and you generally won't find people who argue on literally any character headcanon you can come up. Just about every character (minus a few) can be headcanon as bi, or pan, or poly, or anything really, and it'd be valid. But approaching the one character with the most Lesbian coding and insisting on making her something else entirely (when there's a plethora of other characters to do that with) is not fair. It is not biphobic to insist that Sea Fairy is a lesbian, you do not have to erase someone else's representation to get your

own. ...Come to think of it, it's kind of odd how Bisexuality is only ever brought up when an excuse is need to pair her with men, it's almost as if people forget Bisexuality also involves loving women? Of course, at the end of the day, I cannot stop people from doing what they want, and that's not my goal in the slightest either. However I hope this offers more insight into why most Sea Fairy fans dislike seeing her shipped with men, and I implore those who read this entire post to understand that all you have to do is keep your distance. You do not have to engage, you shouldn't try to disprove it- It's how this issue gets brought up time and time again, just be respectful and things will be fine.

[theclaravoyant]

musings on the evolution of bisexuality in sitcoms and being treated “like a joke”

Not to open up old cans of worms, but for my video project I was thinking about the subject of Eleanor Shellstrop (The Good Place) and various opinions about her bisexuality, the status of it canon-wise, and in particular the feelings amongst some of the fandom (and non-fandom) that it is treated “like a joke.” I have heard similar things about Rosa Diaz (Brooklyn 99) as well regarding the latter point and so that worked its way in, and soon enough this ended up sort of turning into a short ish essay. I’m not really trying to argue a particular point, but merely reflect on some things, and I hope you don’t mind I thought I’d share my musings. It boils down to being laughed at vs being laughed with, which I get to below the cut after a brief exposition (I have some Thoughts)

Note: I am not looking to get into an argument with anyone, and I’m not saying this is the be all and end all answer to rep, but if you wanted to share some thoughts, add on, etc, you’re welcome to do so.

Note II: Just for clarity’s sake, non-LGBT+ people are welcome to interact if you would like to do so.

I must admit, moving back to the topic of Eleanor for a minute, I resonate with some of those feelings I outlined above. For example, I don’t particularly care for the fact that we have never seen her engage in an abiding romantic or even sexual relationship with a woman, whereas her romance with Chidi has been rebooted over and over and is consistently the outcome. It grates on me a bit that in a universe which has been rebooted upward of 4 different times that we have seen (and approx 300 other times shoved into a few minutes) this is the outcome every time. Why not explore another option for a season? I love Cheleanor, don’t get me wrong, and the constant rebooting annoys me from that perspective as well not just the f/f perspective, but in terms of sapphic rep and also considering how often bisexuality is exploited and misrepresented by heteronormative storytellers (eg the tropes “Bi the Way” and “Not Too Bi”), it really sucks.

Edit: I deleted a paragraph here that had some examples I had misremembered and was rushing through. Shockingly writing up a train of thought on a bus leads to some inaccuracies and skipping over of valuable debates. Instead, I will say that I don’t mean by the above, that m/f bi attraction is not real and valuable. It certainly is. What is a pain in the ass in my opinion - and in the opinion of a lot of the bi people I know before anyone comes at me with that again - is when bisexuality is only used to make a character interesting, sexy or rebellious, while still only representing the m/f side of things because that is easier/more comfortable/etc for heteronormative writers and viewers to portray and invest in.

THAT SAID, back to my actual point. I think we (particularly we who are LGBT+ ourselves) are also very accustomed to seeing LGBT+ characters in dramas, where bad things happen and there’s angst and death and gnashing of teeth. I think this being the norm leads us to freak out a bit and not necessarily know how to actually handle positive, happy rep in which we ourselves, our identities, are taken seriously. We are so used to either being a tragedy or being laughed at (rather than with) that it is extremely unsettling to experience what I would call a dawning new era of being respected in sitcoms - including The Good Place, Brooklyn 99, One Day at a Time, and I’m sure there are others as well.

It’s not surprising, with this skittishness trained into us, that some people interpret the treatment of Eleanor’s bisexuality as being a joke. I’m also not saying this knee-jerk reaction is the only reason; again, I’m not saying my thoughts & feelings on this are the be all and end all of rep. I am just saying that it was a major reason why I was uncomfortable at first: it is extremely hard to trust people to joke around about us, and our identities, and especially with the added element of the unique hypersexualisation of bisexual f/f attraction. But recently I’ve been rewatching some older and less progressive, less inclusive sitcoms and in comparison, it becomes very clear, the difference between being the butt of the joke (laughed at) or being part of a joke (laughed with). It might help - not just with Eleanor, but with others too - to give some examples:

In Friends, Monica, Rachel and Phoebe, only use the idea of f/f attraction when they want to get the boys’ attention, distract them, win bets, or the like. They are successful in this explicitly because the men find this idea so ridiculously, mind-bogglingly sexy that they can’t think. Yet NONE of these main characters are ever revealed to have an actual, serious attraction to girls; none of them express it outside of the direct goal of getting male attention. Similarly, in How I Met Your Mother, Lily’s repeated expression of a desire to kiss a girl is put down to her artistic nature and rebelliousness, and is repeatedly called “so stupid”, and again, is only used to get male attention (to wake up Barney). When she finally kisses Robin, it goes away (bi experiment trope), and it is implied that ~lol~ after all that Robin might actually want more, but that is then left hanging and never revisited again. There are heaps more, I could go on, but these are all examples of being laughed at. 

Compared to these sorts of jokes, let us reflect on Eleanor again. Jokes around her sexuality include: being so attracted to her female nemesis that Eleanor can’t insult her profusely without starting to compliment her, and being so attracted to her boyfriend’s girlfriend that in a simulation where she plays him, she goes to kiss the girlfriend instead of her assigned goal, which was to break up. If this sounds more like #relatable sapphic content than a dismissive joke, that’s because it is. These jokes could not happen without Eleanor’s attraction to women, that is true, but the attraction itself is not the joke. The joke lies in Eleanor’s reactions to the attraction as a messy, funny, sexually driven human. In this way, her bisexuality forms part of the joke, but it is paired up with her other personality traits as a comedy character to be laughed with. Similarly, with Rosa Diaz, her stunned moment upon seeing Alicia is funny because it is an example of what we in the biz of gay ass blogging sometimes refer to as “useless lesbian brain” (or in this case “useless bi brain”). It’s cute because the love interest is a girl and because Terry is hyper-enthusiastic that it’s a girl. It wouldn’t work as well as a joke if it was not a girl, and heteronormativity is almost definitely the reason for that, but the point still stands that the bisexuality itself is not the joke, it’s the way she responds to it: it’s the fact that Rosa Diaz, usually so suave and in control, loses the ability to Can. Terry’s overly enthusiastic allyship is also funny, but mostly to people who have experienced overly enthusiastic allyship ie the LGBT+ audience.

(To add one final example: I am not aware of ANY male bi rep in older sitcoms, which kinda speaks for itself, but in the more modern ones we have characters such as Darryl Whitefeather (Crazy Ex Girlfriend). One of the biggest jokes around his sexuality is his coming out as “both-sexual!!” Once again, the joke is not the bi attraction itself, but rather, in the fact that lol this pour bi soul didn’t know the word for it! Another example imo of being laughed with).

I know I’m not saying all that much new here. Probably nothing new, to some people. I also know I’m not addressing every joke or facet of bi or LGBT+ rep even in the shows I’ve just listed. I’m not trying to, I mean none of us have all century. I just think it’s important to highlight what I feel is usually quite a strong difference between being laughed at and being laughed with, and that was the main idea of this post. It’s definitely not always as simple as the examples I’ve outlined above (eg. some of the Eleanor jokes are similar to jokes made in Pitch Perfect, in which I would say it’s about being laughed at), but I am just trying to put some words to some of my thought process on this sort of thing, particularly as I rewatch Friends and think about how far we’ve come with it!

One final time, because people in my inbox don’t seem to get it, I am not claiming to be ‘correct’. This is just an aspect of my feelings and opinions. I am also not trying to ‘speak over’ people who actually ID as bi; in fact, it was bi people saying ‘why can’t you let us have funny things’ that actually opened my eyes to a more comfortable bi-friendly interpretation of the treatment of Eleanor’s sexuality in the first place. I’m not trying to say “this is good rep, actually,” or “this is bad rep, actually.” As I said above, I think it’s both, and I think it’s more complicated than that, and most importantly, I am not actually trying to change anyone’s mind. If you resonate with this? Cool. If not, that’s fine. It’s my thoughts, my opinion. It’s not fact and I don’t want to tell anyone how to feel especially about their own rep.

With that in mind, if anyone is interested in chatting with me more about this sort of thing (by which I do not mean harassing me about it) or asking me what I mean by certain things, or for writing advice, or whatever, you’re welcome to do so - this is just the tip of the iceberg! I just wanted to put this out there in the world for whatever purposes it might come to. Thanks for reading!

[kxlance]

here are my thoughts on the bullshit under the cut cuz it's gonna get long probs i assure you it’s a reassuring post:

ok so the interview itself wasn't bad to me honestly. jeremy did not deny the bi!lance hint, which was the most important thing to know. the fact that he said "that much i can say" implies that there's something left to know that he can't say because nda.

i'm gonna list a positive thing and a negative thing here: the negative one is that on one hand, it pisses me off that lgbt characters are treated as such a big spoilery deal when it should just....feel so natural to have them in a show. also thinking back that dreamworks tagged certain videos as klance just for views...well it's kind of a coward move if they don't at least end the show with lgbt rep. on the other, i really don't see the point with going all "no comment" about it if it weren't to happen?? that would be very assholey, and i know that the writers are not to be trusted, but the mere fact that they lie so much over things than then ended up being canon (e.g: galra keith, paladin allura, pidge being a girl etc) can't help but make me think they are pretty much hiding the endgame couple on purpose. you could argue they could be hinting at allurance which i'm not excluding bc some of the things could be honestly interpreted that way and also they never mention them ever as a couple except i remember like kimberly saying that allura isn't interested in lance (but she could be lying obviously) and jeremy here stating that lance has still a crush on her which is pretty evident and there's nothing new. (we also learned, according to him, that lance basically can dish it out but he can't take it which frankly...i can see pretty well as canon)

on that spectrum, pls note that this happening (or lance ending up with a girl for the matter) doesn't absolutely excludes bi!lance like at all. he can still be confirmed as bi and end up with a girl and that itself would still be very important! one thing doesn't exclude the other honestly so i say very confidently that lance being bi will be confirmed. like 100% convinced that it will. (do not forget lauren's drawing where lance is holding the lgbt sign, there's a specific reason he's the one holding that)

also does anybody think that....this stress over lance liking ladies and stuff is kinda....suspicious?? like jeremy himself was used to say "lol he flirts with anybody on two legs ahha" and now today all of a sudden he's putting a lot of stress on the ""woman"" part. which kind of threw me off? i might be reaching obviously, but mmm you know? and all of this comes after joaquim said "what he's looking for is getting to a place that might be different than when he started in the series" and “what he wants might not be what he needs” and if math isn't an opinion, he started the series always wanting allura so if what he wants is now changing..........................

it is also true that lauren used female pronouns in that interview and while that could be an indicator that lance will end up with a girl, it's also not set in stone bc.... they used to hide pidge's pronouns the same way and if lauren had said "him" you know that keith would have suddenly come to mind bc??? he's legit the only person lance has been paired up so much with. they've been sort of a duo ever since the beginning. and they've had most of the couple tropes out of all the possible pairings??? in the show??? allow me to list some. I'm too lazy to back this up with pics but like you know the scenes i'm talking about (and i also say this because when i ship something i ALWAYS look at canon interactions. and they have a lot):

the bonding moment (or the we are a good team scene if you will), which is not only visually very romantic (the purple lightning aka their two primary colors mixed together) but its sort of the turning point of their relationship and it's something that's very much used with couples especially with couples with their dynamic because oh lord!!!!!! do you know how many heterosexual couples exist with a dynamic like theirs? broody boy meets friendly girl and they're total opposites but ops they fall in love?? bitch literally every goddamn YA novel is like this. anyways, you know that scene would be considered romantic if it was between a boy and a girl, and indeed, allurance sort of paralleled that scene in s4 so if you consider that as romantic but not this one....well....buddy,,,,,,,they're basically in the same lions keith and lance were aka the fire and ice dynamic and if you can see that as romantic with a/l you should be able to see it the same way with....k/l but i digress).

as i was saying, the bonding moment is the turning point of keith and lance's relationship. after that we get:

1) an episode where keith is super anxious to have lance out of a pod and gets jealous when he sees lance flirting with allura, reminds him of their "bonding moment" and gets offended that lance doesnt remember (and an entire discussion could be open as to why he was so offended and the vlog kinda sets that up), overall the flirty banter that we're used to (not to mention this is the famous infamous bi flag planet)

2) a solo mission where they're shown to be working extremely well with each other (like classic battle couple duo scenes)

onto other tropes:

the subtle jealousy that can be interpreted both ways

THE ELEVATOR SCENE which is such a common trope for main couples!! they usually get stuck and have a moment of clarification or something like that. keith and lance's was a lot more comedic but it did lead them to collaborate in battle 2 seconds after so.... it did have an impact like those scenes usually do. (also that scene wasn’t necessary for the plot at all and yet...)

Lance making that fond face while talking about Keith that, may I remember you, was animated purposely to be that way. and overall there's a lot of subtle things like lance being constantly worried over keith in season 2 even though they didn't have much dynamic development??

the hey man scene? the fact that everybody was looking at lance EXPECTING HIM TO DO SOMETHING. and he could have easily looked back at them like "why me???" BUT NOPE, he was ready to go to comfort him!!!!!!!!

i get so worked up over the fact that so many of their scenes can be paralleled with other scenes as the story goes bc LETS BE FUCKING REAL FOR A GODDAM SECOND: they're the only pairing who started a way and are ending up in another. because they've had the most coherent development as a pairing in the seasons and we're fucking halfway through the show and when you also remember that it's pretty clear that lance wants to falls in love and that it's a ""slow burn""" kind of deal,,,,how in the fuck,,,,can it be other than klance??? literally nO OTHER PAIRING had a development since the goddamn start i’m not even saying this with my biased ass i’m saying this objectively speaking!!!!

all of season 3 could be a huge romantic trope honestly but like 2 scenes in particular strike as very romantic:

the leave the math to pidge scene obviously (the way it is framed is very tropey lmfao) and the way we see keith through lance's eyes.......pretty gay if you ask me

and the i got you buddy scene which someone made notice that AN EXACT SAME SCENE happens in the wonder woman movie but with a boy/girl pairing ofc. BUT IT'S THE SAME FUCKING SCENE THAT'S LIKE ROMANTIC TROPE 101 I AINT PLAYING

add on the fact that keith might have left team voltron to make sure lance had a place and boom. pretty romantic to me.

even if jeremy sees them as brothers....which is like...super fucking odd to me bc....he never mentioned this before almost like he's backtracking lololol, his opinion isn't...you know...canon. (and like lbr they never acted like brothers in the show??? and the creators never addressed them as such unlike...you know what) i like jeremy jokes and meme as much as the next guy but i'm a realist and i know that he doesn't really ship klance or anything he just knows how to spoiler the good stuff lolz but also he didn't say anything wrong like it's just how he sees it but the creators never said so (lauren montgomery called lance keith's stability don't forget that) and overall there are wayyyy too many hints to not believe that's its gonna be canon. like......it even makes sense with the overall story better than any other pairing?? because it's pretty plausible that lance had a crush on keith at the garrison that tried to mask with the rivalry. the way he acts and the way he tries to always get his attention furtherly proves that. it's a common thing to do when you have a crush lmao.

LIKE THOSE TWO ARE ALWAYS PAIRED UP EVEN IN THE FUCKING SEASON 2 POSTER?? LIKE THEY COULD HAVE GONE WITH KEITH IN THE MARMORA OUTFIT SINCE IT WAS A BIG PART OF THE SEASON BUT NO??? THEY PUT HIM IN THE SWIM TRUNKS WITH LANCE FOR THOSE 2 MINUTES OF SCENE THEY HAD TOGETHER?????

ok that's it keep on hoping and remember that klance not happening doesn't mean that also bi lance won't because those two things aren’t mutually exclusive ok? but also don't lose hope on klance itself especially if it's something that makes you happy because fandom is meant to be a distraction and klance is an healthy lgbt ship that deserves all the attention it gets and it’s groundbreaking from so many aspects and it being canon would be amazing. bye

ALSO PLEASE STOP COMMENTING SHIT ON JEREMY’S PERSONAL PICS ON INSTAGRAM HE DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG THIS IS EMBARASSING

bonus