#imagining me in shang in such a situation is not only plausible but makes me go 🥺💖 omfg he care

[mrstsung]

I love thinking about dangerous villains/antagonists and they only somft for me type thing.

Cw: Like slight self indulgent blurb ahead but yeah. Also maybe a bit of angst.

This is my fave trope. Big bad,somft heart for beloved.

Like they can be downright dangerous,dark,even brutal to everyone else. Everyone knows who they are,what they are capable of,what they are. And all the shit they do. And some may even fear for your own life sometimes. Tho you don't really have anything to worry about much. Because they don't,wouldn't dare of hurting you.

Like i just imagine shang throwing hands right? A nasty,brutal fight(like all mk fights are but this one is just ooof)

But then sees me get hurt or put in harms way. And immediately 0-100 real quick,goes from focused and angy to absolutely worried and a rarer sight from him,actual fear.

Not that i wasn't handling myself well. It's just shit happens and i just so happen to get in a bad spot during the fight and get overwhelmed.

Maybe an adversary of ours knocking the wind outta me,thus having me collapse or something.

Shang rushing over to me,cradling me in his arms. Talking to me softly that everything will be fine and he'll heal me up right away. Cooing to me with such concern in the softest,sweetest tone you've ever heard from shang tsung,maybe even ever.

Oh but the enemy? Oh they didn't expect shang to care about me so much. But they also don't understand,that you

YOU DON'T MESS WITH SHANG'S GIRL!

He is pissed. Fuming. Never have you seen such brutal fury from this man before.

At least not on this level.

He doesn't care if this drains his soul reserves on him. He doesn't give a damn if by the end of this he turns to dust even.

Nobody,and i mean nobody ever touches what's his. Ever. And lives.

And ladies,gentlemen,and distinguished enbys. That's what i love seeing.

This man would burn all the realms

For you.

Only for you.

Always

For

You.

Shang couldn't ever dare to dream of him losing you. He'd never forgive himself.

He just can't afford to lose the one soul he dare not take. The one soul he genuinely wants to nurture. The one soul that makes his existence a bit less.....lonely. That makes him feel young,alive even. Shang is love should never be taken for granted.

When he loves. HE LOVES HARD AND FOR LIFE OK?!

Like he's the epitome of ride or die when in love.

All he asks is for it in return. Thats not hard to ask for is it?

Like this stuff makes me soooooo soft.

Like i know this was for mostly me. But y'all can imagine yourselves too if you want. :3 ♡

But fr,y'all shang makes me go uwu so much.

Young,old,foxy grandpa,sexy rejuvenated shang. Don't matter.

All shang is good shang. Buuuut ngl i have a biiiig fat liking for tagawa shang/mk 11 shang.

But I'm bias. I admit that.

[warsofasoiaf]

Hergrim and the Westerlands Campaign, Pt. 4

The Lycian Way, or probably smarter to say the earlier part of the Achaemenid campaign (since the Lycian Way is actually a road now), is one of the examples where we get the trope of the young commander using unconventional movement to cover great distances without observation, but now that I think about it, Sogdian Rock might be a better example, dramatically similar even if radically different in objective and intent.

Assuming you were thinking of the march from Phaselis to Perge, I don’t think it was so much covering great distances without observation (since the distances weren’t all that great and the Thracian road builders must have been observed) as it was about changing the strategic situation. So far as I can tell, the only truly viable road for an army into Pamphylia was via Milyas and Termessos. Alexander first reduced Milyas, then looped around and built a better road through Mount Climax (the old road was apparently known as the “Ladder”, which suggests how arduous it had been) so that he could enter Pamphylia, secure the coast to prevent Persian reinforcements landing and then tackle Termessos as he headed towards Phrygia. His picked troops he sent along the shore during a natural break in the storm that allowed them to get most of the way past the watery hazards and threaten any force seeking to block the main army debouching from the pass.

Perhaps a better example would be Cao Cao’s rapid march through the Lulong Pass, a disused mountain pass which, although once containing a frontier road, was little more than a track at the time and thus not considered viable. By marching with minimal armour and baggage, Cao Cao was able to exit the mountains, travel through Xianbi land (a nomadic tribe who were enemies of the Wuhan, allies to Cao Cao’s enemy Yuan Shang) and make some progress into enemy territory before they were confronted and a battle forced.

There’s a difference in that Cao Cao was able to move undetected for so long because he was traveling through lands hostile to his opponents, and he was discovered well before the 200 li the chronicles mention, seeing as that’s approximately where the battle took place (around 80km from Liucheng). Conceptually, though, they’re very similar campaigns insofar as movement is concerned.

Sorry, this was a mistake in communication on my part. I had meant that when Tywin was moving west, Robb could assemble his troops and unify them as a counter to your earlier point. I don’t think he would be so disunited and his troops tired when Tywin returns, given how much enemy territory Tywin has to march through.

Ah, I see what you meant. My counterpoint is that Robb still has to bring his followers together - and they’re spread over hundreds of miles - with quite excellent timing so that they’re assembled and in place to lead Tywin on a chase nearly as Tywin arrives, otherwise logistics becomes another factor. Timing is critical, and will still involve some kind of rapid convergence - if not the sprint I originally imagined - in order to balance logistical and tactical factors.

On thing that just struck me is that, assuming that Robb’s mostly ravaging the northern Westerlands in order to fight in the (relative) south, he’s cut off his own best line of retreat in the event that something goes wrong. It doesn’t have any bearing on the lead up to the battle, I just thought it was an interesting observation on how Robb has either been think or, conversely, hasn’t been thinking.

Sadly we’re back to the whole books vs. history thing. I have faith in Robb because it’s what he does in the books with Ashemark and the Crag. I’m personally in agreement, castle networks are phenomenal when it comes to having even small numbers of men disrupt the activity of a large force. It bugs me a bunch on pretty much every campaign save in the North, where the unfriendly locals and large distances soothe my heart.

Agreed pretty much 100%, I’m just saying that the storming of a castle is not necessarily indicative of a small garrison, let alone an under-strength one.

At the same time, we do see Tywin being maneuvered in a rather predictable fashion. Robb’s and Brynden Tully are unconventional movers, Tully has a great deal of experience given his tenure in the Ninepenny Kings, I think it’s feasible to get Tywin to bait Tywin into deploying suboptimally and him committing his reserve to bolster, with Robb using that opportunity to attack from an unexpected direction or split a line.

I don’t disagree that Robb could conceivably maneuver Tywin into a poor position - although I do think it’s less likely than the other way around, given that Tywin is on home soil, has access to far better intelligence thanks to the ravens and can have bridges broken as necessary to funnel Robb or slow his progress - but I don’t believe that Tywin would be hasty in deploying his reserves or, for that matter, that he would deploy all his reserves at once. Tywin is extremely cautious. He could have forced the Red Fork well ahead of his plan to do so, but spent considerable time (perhaps more time than he really had) probing the fords and, presumably, looking for a hidden trap. Even if Robb managed to bait Tywin into sending most of his reserves on a fool’s errand, Tywin could still keep back enough men to match any reserve Robb could hope to muster. Remember, he has at least a thousand more good cavalry than Robb in addition to some hundreds of poor quality cavalry and no compunction at all about spending the lives of the latter profligately. 

I disagree that not finding out is so strange though. Robb isn’t sending his people south to make contact, and Jaime is on hostile soil which helps explain his intelligence gaps. He’s using his fast element to pacify resistance while his infantry settle in for the siege of Riverrun. It’s an absolutely stupid idea, but I think as Jaime is intended as a character to be reckless and stupid as a commander so that he can grow in the 3rd novel, it’s…serviceable.

I was thinking more in terms of Tywin than Jaime, since his scouts were in contact with Robb since before he’d even left the Neck. Jaime I can buy more or less regarding limited scouting and over reacting to the raid.

I’m honestly not sure that Fairmarket would be a thing at this point for Jaime. The city is a five-day trek east of the Whispering Wood, Jaime is heading north from Riverrun. He may have swung east to Fairmarket, certainly after that, I could see him wanting to rest his troops and seize materiel, but I think he hasn’t reached that far yet.

The Battle under the Walls of Riverrun probably took place some time just before Robb left Moat Cailin, based on the battle beneath the Golden Tooth being a little under two weeks before Robb leaves Moat Cailin. The Neck is somewhere around 270 miles long which, in light of the logistical difficulties of the Neck and the narrowness of the road, is probably 27 days of travelling. Add another five or six days (depending on speed) to get to the Twins. Call it 33 days to be safe.

That’s more than enough time for Jaime to invest Riverrun, including fortifying the camps and starting on pontoon bridges, and dispatch 1500-2000 men to take Fairmarket and establish a strong garrison there to keep an eye on the Freys and Mallisters, as well as to control the best crossing of the Blue Fork in that area, before Robb even reached the Twins.

Similarly, I don’t think the plan depended on all the cavalry being killed or captured, but the ground picked is pretty good for inflicting a high number of casualties and preventing them from fleeing south back to Riverrun. Moving them north across the Tumblestone and into a forested valley makes it difficult for the cavalry to retreat as a unit, as does attacking from multiple sides, especially to the south.

And what happens if there are stragglers or squires and baggage behind Jaime’s main force, along with a small protective detail? Jaime’s days out from Riverrun, and either his men and horses are going very hungry, he has detachments out on the flanks foraging or he has a slim baggage train?

That’s a bit of a rapid pace for an infantry. Without spending time on foraging, scouting, and establishing a camp (since Clegane has been burning much of that territory), though I guess with a forced march given the urgency I could see it. Tywin’s infantry are going to be beat, even with the rest day.

Agreed, it’s a fast pace. A more plausible is 10-12 miles when going through the ravaged territory and 12-14 miles through territory that is relatively untouched. I tend to use the maximum plausible speed where possible when trying to prove a point, just to show that even under ideal circumstances my point is still valid.

There definitely was damage done, if Lady Mormont driving herds of cattle back to the Riverlands is any judge. I will say, that’s one thing that bugged me about the books. Bypass the Golden Tooth, that’s fine, but how are the cows getting back. Ignore that both cattle drives and marching armies generate a great deal of dust, cattle are big and difficult to drive on hard terrain. *shrug*

The most likely route would seem to me to be up into the Westerlands salient and then across the hills into the Riverlands. The hills are probably marginal country used for raising sheep and cattle anyway, and I doubt Lady Mormont had more than one or two hundred men, so feeding men and horses isn’t the struggle it would be with a full army.

100% reciprocated boss. If I ever get a manuscript off the ground, you would probably be one of the first people I pay for editing.

Maybe not editing, but I’d be more than willing to help checking out the military elements.

Onward into the breach!

There’s a difference in that Cao Cao was able to move undetected for so long because he was traveling through lands hostile to his opponents, and he was discovered well before the 200 li the chronicles mention, seeing as that’s approximately where the battle took place (around 80km from Liucheng). Conceptually, though, they’re very similar campaigns insofar as movement is concerned.

Oh, you misunderstand. It’s the depiction of it that gives Alexander one of the reputations of being this unconventional movement wizard. Cao Cao’s movement being exaggerated way before the 200 li is sort of the same effect. It’s a brilliant move, but heroic mythmaking makes it into something different entirely, and GRRM likes to use some of the heroic mythmaking for his fantasy story, which was part of my original point with the whole Birnam wood deal.

On thing that just struck me is that, assuming that Robb’s mostly ravaging the northern Westerlands in order to fight in the (relative) south, he’s cut off his own best line of retreat in the event that something goes wrong. It doesn’t have any bearing on the lead up to the battle, I just thought it was an interesting observation on how Robb has either been think or, conversely, hasn’t been thinking.

This is a weird thing because I get all sorts of conflicting information on the Westerlands-Riverlands northern pass, in impassibility and defense. Do the Westerlings control that stretch of land, can you drive an army column through it? Another reason why an atlas would be awesome.

Agreed pretty much 100%, I’m just saying that the storming of a castle is not necessarily indicative of a small garrison, let alone an under-strength one.

Noted, I’m just pointing out that the lack of sallies and trying to figure out why they didn’t utilize the castle network that they had.

Tywin is extremely cautious. He could have forced the Red Fork well ahead of his plan to do so, but spent considerable time (perhaps more time than he really had) probing the fords and, presumably, looking for a hidden trap.

I normally agree that Tywin is a cautious commander, but his notorious blind spot comes when Lannister dominance and supremacy (joined at the hip with his own) is challenged. The Clegane plot is evidence of that, he lucks out significantly in Robert not being around and Eddard capable of influencing him at court, and in Clegane attacking a royal banner at the Mummer’s Ford.

The Battle under the Walls of Riverrun probably took place some time just before Robb left Moat Cailin, based on the battle beneath the Golden Tooth being a little under two weeks before Robb leaves Moat Cailin. The Neck is somewhere around 270 miles long which, in light of the logistical difficulties of the Neck and the narrowness of the road, is probably 27 days of travelling. Add another five or six days (depending on speed) to get to the Twins. Call it 33 days to be safe.

According to the PrivateMajor Timeline, Whispering Wood happens 22 Dec and Whispering Wood happens 9 Jan. Figure that Jaime spent some time resting his troops and investing the siege, and I think he doesn’t have enough time to hit Fairmarket.

And what happens if there are stragglers or squires and baggage behind Jaime’s main force, along with a small protective detail? Jaime’s days out from Riverrun, and either his men and horses are going very hungry, he has detachments out on the flanks foraging or he has a slim baggage train?

I wouldn’t be surprised again if Jaime did go slim on the baggage train explicitly because he was said to be aggressively hunting down raiders and didn’t want to bother with such trivialities. I agree that if that was the case, it’s overegging the pudding, unless Jaime’s later chapters were going to have him get gritty with the baggage train metrics.

Maybe not editing, but I’d be more than willing to help checking out the military elements.

Yeah, that’s what it would be. An extra set of eyes never hurts, and it’d be useful to see the military elements from both trained and untrained eyes to better simulate different readers.

This is a good discussion, I hope the readers are getting as much from it as I am.

-SLAL