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ineffable-romantics · 1 year ago

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Some thoughts on why and how I believe Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship would incorporate sex/why I do not read them as wholly asexual:

This is something I've seen the most discourse about in this fandom, and I've had a few thoughts of my own that I really wanted to expand upon in a full meta/character analysis post. I do understand that this can be a contentious topic, so first, let me clarify a few things:

First of all, this is going to be long. Tbh it probably won't be that organized either. I ramble and I'm not very good at editing, so just... you know. Be warned. (*Hi, it's me from 2 days after writing this; I'm really not kidding, it's LONG)

These are all my own thoughts. They might not be hot takes, because recently I've seen more than a few people come to the same conclusions on a lot of these points as I have. But I've also had these notes in my drafts for about a week and a half now, and have been continuously adding to it as things have occurred to me. This post is essentially just somewhere for me to collect the separate but related meta I've been kicking around in my head.

I fully respect anyone who does see and prefer an asexual reading of this relationship. These are my own thoughts and interpretations as someone who is not asexual. I am in the LGBT+ community, so while I do know a few things about the asexuality spectrum, I am by no means an expert.

This is NOT something I expect, need, or even necessarily want the show (or, God forbid, Neil's tumblr ask box) to address. Tonally, it's just not that kind of show. Newt and Anathema's sex scene was very much played for laughs, and it worked for that reason. If the show found a way to address it in a way that was both appropriate for the tone of the show and ultimately satisfying, then great! But there is so much more to this relationship than sex, and I didn't need a kiss to confirm their love, so I certainly don't need a sex scene. As immortal beings (as I assume they'll stay) there is so much of the rest of their lives we'll never get to see. You can headcanon them as asexual and potentially be right. I can headcanon them as not and be equally potentially right. Again, these are just a collection of my own thoughts, because I think the question of sexuality (or lack thereof) is just as interesting a facet of these characters as any other.

Note: Tbh I've been second-guessing this whole post and debated deleting the whole thing several times for being silly or unnecessary, bc I don't want anyone to think that this is the only thing I care about when it comes to this story/characters. But if nothing else, it's inspired me to write in a way that nothing has in a very long time, so I've decided it's worth continuing, if for no other reason than that.

This is going to be a mixed bag of textual reading, subtextual reading, and a full-on reach or two. It's been a while since I've been in an English class, but if my teachers expected me to find a deeper meaning behind blue curtains, you can expect me to read too deeply into the symbolism of a loaded rifle or an ox rib. (This is probably not what my professors had in mind when grading my literary analysis papers but oh well) My point is, if it feels like a reach, I'm as aware of it as you are. I am in no way saying that all (or even any) of my points made were deliberate on the part of Neil or the actors or the writers or the directors. I am no longer the delulu Apple Tree Yard child of my youth, I promise.

If anything said here is in any way offensive or hurtful to anyone in the asexual community, please do not hesitate to message me or comment and let me know exactly what it was. I promise you it is not my intention to do so, and am happy to clarify or outright edit anything that reads that way.

With all that being said, let's talk about why I think Crowley and Aziraphale would absolutely fuck nasty incorporate sex into their relationship.

Note: I am out of practice with essay writing, so I think I'll just go down the bullet points of notes I have been making, and expand on each as best I can

Food

Where better to start than with Aziraphale's introduction to Pleasures Of The Flesh? (Just a heads up, this entire post may feel very Aziraphale-heavy, and with good reason).

This might be the least hot take here. We've all seen the Job minisode. We've all seen That Scene.

Whether this was intentional or not, the symbolism here is off the charts. Eve was tempted by an apple. So why not go a similar route and tempt Aziraphale with another fruit, or cheese, or bread, or literally anything else for his first experience with food? Instead, we go with a huge, glistening slab of fresh meat that he proceeds to absolutely go feral upon, moaning and gasping into his meal while Crowley watches with what definitely doesn't look to be disgust or even satisfaction with a good temptation. There's surprise at the ferocity of Aziraphale's appetite, certainly. But ultimately he looks to be intensely fascinated by it, while the thunder crashes, the music crescendos, and the earth literally shakes around them.

(It's also interesting to note how very little it takes for Crowley to tempt him with the ox rib. One murmured suggestion, a bit of unwavering eye contact, and vavoom Aziraphale immediately meets him in the middle.)

Cut to Aziraphale devouring the rest of the meat with Crowley splayed back on a makeshift bed, drinking wine and continuing to watch him indulge through half-lidded eyes. Outside a thunderstorm rages while they're learning secrets about each other in warm flickering firelight. It's cosy, it's intimate, and if they'd thrown in a bearskin throw blanket, it might as well be a post-coital scene straight out of Game of Thrones.

The next time (chronologically) we see them discuss food is when Aziraphale "tempts" Crowley with oysters in Rome. So Crowley first tempts Aziraphale with meat and then Aziraphale tempts Crowley with what is widely regarded to be an aphrodisiac. Interesting.

And then chronologically after that, the Arrangement begins to form, which has always reeked of a friends with benefits situation. Just to throw that in there.

It's What Humans Do

In the very first episode, we're shown Gabriel's obvious disgust and bewilderment towards Aziraphale eating sushi, calling it "gross matter" and being proud of the fact that he does not sully his body with it. Aziraphale initially tries to defend his own enjoyment in it, before passing it off as something that humans do, as something he simply has to do in order to blend in (which we know very well is not the case).

He does this again in season 2, passing off Nina and Maggie being in love as "something humans do". But it isn't, is it? Angels are beings of love, and can sense it, and understand very well what it is... up to a point. Even romantic love is obviously within their wheelhouse, given what we now know happened between Gabriel and Beelzebub (we'll come back to them).

What the "humans do" that angels wouldn't understand is messy, physical forms of love.

But here's the thing: Aziraphale and Crowley love doing what the humans do. They love drinking, they (or at least Aziraphale) love eating. They love music. Crowley loves driving and sleeping and watching rom-coms and sitcoms. Aziraphale loves reading and doing magic and earning little licenses and certificates for achievement in his various hobbies. They love to playact at being human so much that they've stopped playacting and started building a genuinely human lifestyle for themselves and with each other.

Once together in an unambiguously romantic sense, why do we think they wouldn't also want to explore one of the most prominent, intimate, powerful human expressions of love and desire with each other?

Angels, Demons, & Asexuality

Here's where I really want to clarify that in no way do I mean that sex is necessary for a healthy, fulfilling, and loving romantic relationship, or that the lack of desire for sex makes you any less human. Asexuality is a sexuality as valid and human as any. What I would say is that it is definitely in the human minority compared to allosexuality.

Angels and demons, on the other hand, are predominately asexual. Sexless/genderless unless Making An Effort. (Which, btw, is a concept introduced as early as the original book; why even bring it up as a possibility? Why not keep angels/demons being sexless/asexual as a hard and fast rule, if not to open up the potential for later use? Chekhov's Effort, if you will. And isn't that something that Aziraphale in particular is shown to do time and time again? He makes an effort in French and driving and magic, doesn't he?)

And this is why I don't believe Aziraphale and Crowley necessarily need to be asexual, narratively. There is already a huge amount of ace rep within the angels and demons (and no, not just the horrible ones. Muriel also doesn't "drink the tea" and has no reason or desire thus far to Make An Effort, and there are certainly other angels and demons who aren't horrible like the archangels seem to be who likely wouldn't Make An Effort either).

The central conflict for Aziraphale and Crowley is that they are on their own side, the ones who went native, the ones who are so different in so many ways from their respective hives. It would make sense for them to also break away from traditional angel/demon asexuality.

I say "traditional angel/demon asexuality", because I would also like to note that I would absolutely not rule out demisexuality for either of them. This post is being written to as a response to people who specifically believe that they (like the rest of the angels/demons seem to be) would be sex-averse in a relationship, and that it wouldn't be a factor in their relationship. I could easily read them as demisexual, but I do think there would be no real way of verifying this, because they've never been able to form as close an emotional relationship with anyone else but each other. Certainly not in heaven, and I can't imagine they would be able to form that kind of attachment with any of the humans, who they love and emulate but ultimately regard as the separate species they are. So yes, they could either be allosexual or demisexual, in my opinion.

Then again, now that I think about it, Making An Effort itself could be a great metaphor for demisexuality, since they would be entirely sexless/asexual until they have enough of an emotional connection with someone to consciously manifest otherwise. Since the other angels and demons don't generally form those types of emotional connections with anyone, there hasn't been a precedent for it.

Except...

Brielzebub

We do have a precedent for it now, don't we? Gabriel and Beelzebub fell in love. They are a direct foil for Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship, speedrunning right through their courtship and finding their happily ever after on the other side of things.

For being such a 1 to 1 comparison, it feels deliberate that they did not kiss. They held hands, they were gooey with each other, but they did not kiss. That feels like such a deliberate thing to omit when you know what's to come at the end of the episode between Crowley and Aziraphale.

And going back to the food = sex metaphor for a moment, let's notice how even as they fell in love over the years, even when pints and crisps were there on the table in front of them, they never felt the desire to reach out for them. They didn't need to. It's a date (love story) even if you aren't eating dinner (sleeping together).

Yes, I know Jim liked hot chocolate. No, I am not counting it because I don't consider Jim and Gabriel to be the same person with the same proclivities, and Jim was highly suggestible at the time anyway.

Gabriel and Brielzebub's big happily ever after moment (as of now) was one between two asexual supernatural beings. They did not need to kiss to drive the point home. They showed what Crowley and Aziraphale could have, if they would only acknowledge it.

Crowley & Aziraphale's Dissatisfaction

But they do have that already, don't they? If you really think about it, what do Gabriel and Beelzebub do with each other that Crowley and Aziraphale don't already? They hold hands, they spend time together, they create little rituals, they give gifts, they're visibly and verbally affectionate with each other, etc. They are more or less already in a romantic asexual marriage relationship with each other, aren't they?

And it doesn't seem to be enough for either of them.

At the beginning of the season, Crowley is immediately shown to be unsatisfied with the way things are. Obviously part of it comes from living in his car, but it seems to be more than that (especially since Aziraphale makes it clear that the bookshop is just as much Crowley's as his, implying that he could have been living there the whole time and is choosing not to, for some reason?). You could argue he's feeling unmoored without Hell telling him what to do, but isn't that what he wanted? Isn't that what he still wants, by the end of the season? All season long, he's never indicated the desire for a new job, or a new project. He stopped the apocalypse because he wanted the freedom to openly spend time with Aziraphale, to spend his time on Earth however he sees fit. Until Gabriel arrives, he has exactly that (minus a flat).

So where does the dissatisfaction come from? And if it represents anything to do with his relationship, what does he want out of it that he isn't getting already?

I think Crowley only really comes to the realisation of what he's missing when Nina names it for him, not only putting them in the category of romantic, but physical (outright asking if they are sleeping together). These two posts [1], [2] go into more detail about what I mean, but I think it really pushes him into acknowledging that their relationship is more human than either of them have stopped to consider, and what that might mean as far as everything a human relationship can entail.

After all, Nina and Maggie only advised that he should talk to Aziraphale, make clear his feelings. The decision to kiss him, to tip them over the edge from nonphysical to physical, that was all him. And no, kissing isn't sex, but I wonder how taboo even that might be in the kind of all-encompassing asexuality most angels seem to identify with. (If they're disgusted by food and drink, I can only imagine what they think of snogging, much less sex.)

Aziraphale doesn't have this moment of someone observing their relationship from the outside. He loves Crowley, and as of 1941 probably even knows he's in love with him in a way that Crowley doesn't understand yet. Which makes sense, since love is technically his job, he'd be more likely to recognise it for what it is.

However, Aziraphale's reference for romance and relationships is Jane Austen. It's chaste. It's dancing and dinner and doing sweet things for each other and roses and candles and handholding. He contextualises his love for Crowley in that soft fantasy sort of way, where it's there, it's obviously there, but it's neat and easy and unspoken. Not to quote Glee in this, the year of our lord 2023, but it's all very "the touch of the fingertips is as sexy as it gets".

Someone should tell that to Aziraphale's face, then.

I'm not going to pretend I know what Michael Sheen's script notes were, but there were definitely some Choices™ made. Because yes, there were plenty of moments in both seasons with Aziraphale looking at Crowley in a sweet, loving, smitten way. And then there were moments that were yearning.

But yearning for what, exactly? All of those sappy Jane Austen tropes already apply to the two of them. So why are there moments where Aziraphale is looking Crowley up and down like the last eclair in the window and licking his lips and visibly exhaling like he's trying to get in control of himself (see: Bastille scene + Crowley telling Muriel to ask him if they have any other questions about love)? Why is Aziraphale not only unconcerned when Crowley shoves him bodily up against a wall in s1, but staring at his lips and a beat too late in noticing Sister Mary's arrival? Why are some of his lines so suggestive? I'm sorry, but the car ride after the church explosion might as well have been the beginning of a Pizza Man porn with a really weird Blitz theme. If even my mother picked up on that vibe, I can't imagine it wasn't intentional on part of both the dialogue and the delivery.

(This section may feel like more of a reach/joke, but I'm really only 20% joking. These are writers and actors who are EXTREMELY good at their jobs; they know what they were doing here.)

More importantly, I don't think Aziraphale is even aware that there is more to what he wants. He lives in the Jane Austen fantasy and it never even occurs to him that he might be interested in anything further. It never even occurs to him that, as an angel, there is anything further to be interested in in the first place. Until Crowley forces it to occur to him. Just like I believe Nina forced Crowley to confront the idea that romantic love is what he's been feeling all along, I believe Crowley forced Aziraphale to confront the idea that physical intimacy is something he's been wanting, without even realising.

Aziraphale's Hedonism

Expanding on Aziraphale for a moment. We talked about his relationship with food, but we all know that Aziraphale is defined by his love of things that Feel Good.

It isn't just that he and Crowley love human things. Aziraphale loves the best of the best, or at least his version of it. He doesn't just love food, he loves going to fancy restaurants. He doesn't just love clothes, he loves soft, cosy, warm, plush clothes, or shiny, flashy, bougie fashion. He loves the warmth of tea and cocoa, loves getting drunk, and sitting in a comfy chair in the sunlight. He doesn't just experience, he indulges.

Given the emphasis put on things that Aziraphale loves just because they Feel Good, it feels narratively strange to assume that he wouldn't enjoy the feeling of being touched, or that he wouldn't be willing to try it, at least once, with someone he cared very deeply for. And just like the ox rib, I think that once he gets the first taste of things, he would absolutely tip over into complete and utter self-indulgence.

Dancing

I also think that dancing could be construed as a huge metaphor here. After all, we're told flat-out that angels don't Dance. Except one.

I would argue that Aziraphale, in fact, Made An Effort to learn how to Dance. He threw himself into the gavotte with delight (at a Victorian gay club; noted) and worked hard to be good at it. He's chomping at the bit to Dance with Crowley, working up the nerve to ask him with undeniably romantic intent and eagerness. So, angels don't Dance... unless they Make An Effort to do so.

We are told that demons, on the other hand, do Dance, but not well. Makes sense, since they're the ones who would want to encourage a deadly sin like lust, but have as little understanding of human love and physical intimacy as the angels. Crowley, however, is shown to be an excellent dancer at the ball, especially in his compatibility with Aziraphale.

(But Aziraphale WandaVisioned the ball so everyone knew how to dance! Yes, he did. However, the rest of the brainwashing doesn't seem to affect Crowley in any way, and they did actually live through the time period where this sort of dancing was a social norm; I'd be surprised if he never needed to learn. After all, the demons can't spell either, and Crowley is at least functionally literate, as far as we know.)

As of today, it's also been confirmed that when Aziraphale asked Crowley to dance, Crowley replied with "you don't dance." Not "WE don't dance". So going along with the metaphor, Crowley is just now discovering that Dancing is something Aziraphale is interested in at all, much less with him, and not denying that he himself is interested in Dancing. In his defense, I believe he was asleep for a few years while Aziraphale was learning the gavotte, so he wasn't exactly aware of Aziraphale's hot girl summer.

Love Languages

I want to expand on that; Crowley and Aziraphale's compatibility. Specifically in regards to their individual love languages.

We all know Crowley's love language is Acts of Service. I don't think there's any debate there. He loves it, Aziraphale loves it, they're both aware of it, we're all aware of it, God and Satan are aware of it, no surprise there.

You may disagree with me, but I believe Aziraphale's love language is Physical Touch, for a number of reasons. One of which being his aforementioned hedonism. Aziraphale likes things that Feel Good, remember? He likes soft clothes, and well-worn books. Neil himself has said that they like holding hands. And any time he is taken by surprise (Brielzebub getting together, the wave of love in Tadfield, etc.) what is the first thing he does? Reaches out for Crowley. He stops him with a hand to the chest in the pub. He leads him by the hand to the dance floor. He guides him by the waist in the graveyard. He reaches out during the entire Brielzebub scene, whether he can reach Crowley or not. Despite his own turmoil, he grasps at Crowley's back during the kiss.

The one time Crowley reaches out for him (not counting the kiss yet; we'll get there), he is aggressively pushed against a wall (by someone he loves and trusts) with a complete and utter lack of concern (and perhaps some interest, depending on how you read it).

And when he isn't reaching out for anyone, or there isn't anyone to reach out to? Well, he's wringing his own hands together, squeezing his own fingers, as if to find that physical comfort in himself.

So. With that theory in mind, we have Aziraphale (Physical Touch) + Crowley (Acts of Service). Throw in 6000+ years of deep love, cherished companionship, and forcibly repressed longing, and there is a very real potential of this combination resulting in fierce sexual compatibility. Where Aziraphale would want to touch and be touched, to indulge in physical pleasure with someone he adores, in the same the way he indulges in every other fine thing in his life. And where Crowley would want to indulge him in return, to give him everything he wants, and to take pleasure in Aziraphale's pleasure, in the same way he enjoys watching him take joy in food everything else.

So Aziraphale is an angel who is insecure about his own less-than-holy desires, who would want to treat Crowley like a luxury to be touched and cherished and adored. And Crowley is a demon who has, over the millennia, been unhappy about how they've been forced to deny even their friendship with each other, who would want Aziraphale to feel comfortable and safe and encouraged to indulge in earthly delights. That sounds like a stunning recipe for sexual compatibility to me.

"You said 'trust me'" / "And you did"

Just like the Job minisode, the Blitz is RIFE with symbolism (intentional or otherwise). This one will be quick, but I did want to touch on it because I thought it was interesting. Maybe I'm reaching at this point, but I'm assuming you read the tin.

First of all, Crowley not wanting to admit to never firing a gun before; comes off as someone who very much does not want to admit to their crush that they're a virgin ("You must have done this lots of times!" / "Umm.... yyyyyeah.")

(You could make the argument that Aziraphale having a firearms license and a Derringer in a hollowed-out book is symbolic of him not being a virgin while Crowley is. I disagree, for reasons I'll go into later, but it's a valid reading. However, I see it more like keeping a condom in your wallet; it's there in case you need it, but the opportunity has not yet risen no pun intended.)

More importantly, the theme of this entire minisode is trust. We already know they trust each other with their lives against the rest of Heaven, Hell, and the world. But specifically, this is about the importance of having complete trust in your partner in a charged, physically vulnerable, intimate moment, where the only danger is between the two of you.

Aziraphale needs to believe Crowley would never hurt him if he can help it. Crowley needs to trust Aziraphale's unwavering blind faith in him. Frankly, it all feels very symbolic of two people deeply in love losing their respective virginities with each other.

The trick is a success, and they share an intimate candlelit dinner in which they reaffirm their faith in each other. Aziraphale also begins to voice his agreement with Crowley, that maybe Heaven's rules shouldn't have to be as black and white as they are, and that there are benefits to... blurring the lines, shades of grey, wink wink (at which point even my mom was like, whoa guys, this is a family show).

Btw also: Can we all agree how much it looked like Crowley was getting ready to get a lapdance in that one scene? You know the one.

Also also: "Aim for my mouth"? Come on.

The Birds & The Bees

Now that I think of it, there's also something to be said for the fact that Crowley and Aziraphale are both obviously familiar with where babies come from (how they're made and how they're born) while the other angels aren't.

Something something Aziraphale and Crowley fundamentally understand sex and reproduction in a way the other angels (and probably demons) very much do not, nor have any desire to.

Probably not important. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

The Kiss™ & Religious Trauma

The Kiss. Where to even begin?

This has definitely been the hardest one to start, because there is so much going on here that I definitely won't be able to cover it all, and will certainly miss a few things here and there.

Aziraphale's reaction to the kiss afterwards is the most interesting to me. And I don't mean directly after, I don't mean the "I forgive you" part. I mean the way he touches his lips when Crowley is no longer in the room and he no longer needs to save face, when he is completely alone. Had it been directly after the kiss, it would have been rightfully read as horror, or disgust, a shield to discourage further action.

It's not. It isn't just a touch, it's a press. As desperate and angry and unexpected and imperfect as the kiss had been, Aziraphale is pressing it into himself, recreating the feeling as best he can. Beneath all the poor timing and shock and hurt from their fight and fallout, I think it's fair to say that it was something he enjoyed. Something he doesn't think he should enjoy, something that Feels Good that he only allows himself to indulge in when completely alone.

Remember, Aziraphale's idea of love is Jane Austen and gentleness and courtship and fantasy. If he'd ever even considered kissing an option, it might have been gentle pecks, cheek kisses, forehead kiss, hand kisses. Soft, safe, chaste affection.

Crowley's kiss turns all of that on its head. He introduces physical intimacy in a very real, very messy, very human way that I don't think Aziraphale ever even considered could apply to them. Considering what other angels are like and what they look down on, even Aziraphale's Jane Austen fantasies probably would have been considered taboo.

So for their first kiss to be rough and desperate and passionate in the way it was, of course he was confused and in shock. It was deeply physical, and as overwhelming and awful as it was in the moment, it Felt Good. Enough that he grasped at Crowley and kissed back, if only just for a moment, before stopping himself. Enough that he actively pressed it into his lips afterwards, in private, to remember.

I adore how Neil has decided to evolve these characters past the first book/season. More so in this season, Aziraphale and Crowley have both become such interesting allegories for queer people on either side of the spectrum of toxic religion. Aziraphale in particular obviously, because he is the side that so desperately wants to believe, to make a difference, and to unlearn all of the propaganda he's been fed over such a long time. Just like so much of organised religion, there is so much that he is told, time and time again, that he should not want, that he is silly or stupid or outright wrong for wanting. It reminds me so much of the severe Catholic guilt one might feel for wanting/engaging in sex for the first time, and the stigma of being queer layered on top of that.

What is so critical to Aziraphale's character is that he goes on wanting, and more than that, actively pursues. He was convinced to go up against Heaven and Hell and stop all of Armageddon because he wanted to go on listening to music and eating lunch and reading books and enjoying the simple company of the person he cares most deeply for, even if that person is supposed to be the enemy.

All this to say that if angels are as generally asexual/sex-averse as I believe them to be, narratively speaking, it would make sense for Aziraphale to be singular in that regard as well. Mirroring his first experience with food, it would make sense for Crowley to be the one to first introduce this new messy, physical, human dynamic between them, for Aziraphale to hesitate (obviously we are at the Hesitation phase at the moment), and then (eventually) for him to dive in wholeheartedly, to absolutely glut himself on this new thing that Feels Good. It would make sense for his character development to show him overcoming his metaphorical Catholic guilt and pursuing the sexual intimacy most (if not all) of the other angels would scorn.

(I can't help but remember that plot idea Neil described from the unwritten sequel, with Aziraphale in a hotel room trying to watch a full porno by way of the free 2-minute teaser clips so he wasn't technically sinning by paying for it. I so hope this is used in season 3, because gosh, I wonder why Aziraphale would suddenly be so interested in observing human physical intimacy after 6,000 years. Lonely and doing a little surreptitious research there, angel?)

Crowley, on the other hand, is the queer person who has broken free from his toxic religion. He prides himself on being his own person, on their his own side. He doesn't have the hang-ups Aziraphale does. He doesn't worry that he's going to be judged or cast aside for wanting things he's not supposed to. So it only makes sense for him to be the first one to suggest/initiate physical intimacy. It makes sense for him to be the one who "goes too fast" (another fantastic example of this dynamic beginning as early as s1; what is that conversation in the car meant to represent, if not Aziraphale being overwhelmed by the intensity of their relationship, and his fear of succumbing to it when he believes he shouldn't? It's also interesting that this is the first conversation to take place in Soho, just after watching Aziraphale realise he's caught feelings for a demon, with the red glow of lust serving as the backdrop).

Do I think the kiss in and of itself was sexual? No. I think it was a passionate and devastating last-ditch effort on Crowley's part to convey the way he feels for Aziraphale. Not just that he loves him, but that he loves him in the most human way possible. But I do think that the kiss represents how they can move forward from here, and what they might want to explore with each other once they feel free enough to do so.

In Conclusion

I am sure, deep in my bones (unless we are explicitly told otherwise), that this was both of their first kisses no, I'm not counting the gavotte, and that neither of them have ever thought to do anything else physical with the humans while they have been on Earth. Like I said before, they adore the human race and lifestyle in general, but ultimately view them as a separate species altogether, and they seem mostly happy to keep to themselves and each other, unless otherwise necessary. I just can't see either of them being drawn enough to a human to pursue anything close to sex. If Crowley in particular has had anything to do with sex in the context of temptations, I'm positive he would be inciting lust amongst the humans themselves, not involving himself directly. At least not that directly.

So, like every other human experience they've had on Earth, sex is something new that they could explore together, just the two of them, on their own side. A deeply intimate, tangible declaration of their love and everything they've gone through to earn it. A visceral finger to give both Heaven and Hell. A renewed appreciation for their corporations and for each other's. A enjoyable method for immortal beings to simply pass the time in each other's company. A new and exciting way to Feel Good, and all the variations that come with it.

You might agree with this post, or you might not. Whether this is something that is ever addressed or not, it doesn't matter to me. This is a brilliant love story either way, and I genuinely feel so privileged to witness it.

But I just can't find it in myself to imagine, given everything we know about these two characters, that sex isn't an experience they would both consume with wholehearted enthusiasm, curiosity, and profound, ineffable adoration.

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Bonus feature: the very silly notes I made to myself that inspired this post

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mariamegale · 1 month ago

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More clarification on Dybowski's position within Ice Pick Lodge today from IPL ex-employee Luchin, after yesterday's comments.

Sorry for posting so much in the patho tag, but unfortunately it's what's best for visibility. I have, and will be, using the "Dybowski Allegations" tag for any post on this, so please block that tag if you don't want to see it.

Since my post yesterday on Alexey Luchin's comments/allegations against Dybowski, he has given Reddit some updates and clarifications. I'll summarise the Reddit thread, but quote Luchin in full for transparency.

The thread is on the topic of Dybowski's current involvement with IPL/Pathologic 3. Commenters stated that he has sold the company, and hasn't been very involved with the games since The Void (2008). Whether this is a valid interpretation of Luchin's earlier statements was discussed, and the fact that he's been a main P2 writer and involved with a lot of promo stuff over the years was brought up. Luchin, after being pinged, showed up to clarify:

Russian companies often use a "fake owner" for various reasons, this is the case here. Motivations may be to avoid alimony, to ease money transfers between the main company part in Kazakhstan and the original main company and it's Cyprus subordinary. It is not illegal, and even not a loophole, though. I wouldn't dwell on that much. It's important what people work in the studio factually.

and,

Yep, I'd say it's up to the currently employed to shed light reliably. But in general around after the Void he was more of an broad ideas guy — and a good one, it wasn't my intent to downplay him in that regard. At the same time, game development is a multistage process, and from my personal knowledge, I can attribute a lot of the new games qualities to "fresh blood", and the other co-founders acting more professional. E.g. Alphyna has covered a decent chunk of actual writing on Pathologic 2 and had a pivotal role in maintaining the timeline of events of the game, charater motivations, etc together. Ivan Slovtsov carried the detailed game design and balancing with his team — which gave him a good position in tinyBuild after, etc. IPL is to some extent an autere game company, with the source and numerous modifications coming from Nikolay, but in my time his input was irregural, disrupting, and in my personal opinion wasn't often for the good of the game. At the same time, the fresh blood in the studio grew on the principles on which the studio was founded and successfully carries its legacy already. This is an opinion, though, still. Personally, I'll still play Pathologic 3, it's great, from what I know / have seen. And all my posts here are done with a heavy heart — it's not easy to be dissapointed in a talanted figure such as Dybowsky myself.

So, based on this (keep in mind Luchin himself has stated to have no contact with Dybowski himself since 2018, although it feels fair to assume he'd still be in contact with other former coworkers) the exact role of Dybowski in the creation of these games seems a little unclear. But I also don't think anyone's been debating whether he's been involved up until p3, as much as how deeply involved he is in p3.

Ultimately, it's up to everyone to decide for themselves where they stand in terms of opinion on p3, buying the game, sticking around in the fandom, supporting the studio, et cetera., but that's the new info.

To just give my own personal two cents: I am still in the position I was yesterday, which is that I believe IPL has to make a statement on all of this, and cut ties with Dybowski, before I'll be completely comfortable giving them money. However, I do also want to acknowledge the fact that this is not a black and white situation, and that the discourse surrounding this does warrant some level of nuance. I'm, of course, speaking in relation to the other people working at IPL.

It's incredibly easy to say both, "Dybowski is not his team; they should never be punished for his actions," and "they may have helped cover for him for twenty years; they should be held responsible." Silence is, to a degree, complicity, and if Luchin is to be believed not just in his "open secret" statement but also here, in reference to the student grooming allegations:

That's the Nema-Soda episode around the same time previous accusations surfaced. Well known in the Russian segment of the internet.

That's bad. If this truly has been this out in the open and known, that's really fucking bad, and I want this company - at least its management - to be held responsible for their potential silence and complicity in this.

But, at risk of sounding like I'm excusing any of this, I do also want to remind you that according to Luchin, as well as earlier testimonies including Renata's, this is also a person who is apparently incredibly vindictive. He is also pretty rich by Russian standards, and has held some level of influence in academia and the Russian game dev community for many years. I don't know exactly how his vindictiveness would take its form, especially not against employees, but I've been in toxic workplaces before - it can be scary, downright terrifying, to go after or even up against someone like this. No matter how shitty they are, especially if you're not in a country with good whistleblower laws (and just, in general, a system which will take the original allegations seriously, which... I'm not Russian, but I'm allowing myself some possibly problematic doubt that you'd be able to comfortably know that. I come from a significantly more progressive country, and I would absolutely not take it for certain) it can be incredibly difficult to stand up for what's right and take that risk to your livelihood, safety, and future job prospects. Especially in a job market so (relatively) niche as Russian game development. I'm also pretty damn sure there's not a union, or anything like it, to back you up if you get inofficially retaliated against.

Human being end up in abusive situations and find themselves, for one reason or another, not doing anything about it all the time. SA victims don't always report their perpetrator. Fraud victims don't always come forward. People subjected to wage theft don't always call their union reps. And others, those who witness it, don't always do it either. Sometimes because it's not their place, sometimes because they don't care, and sometimes because they're afraid. I don't think it's fair to assume everyone is in the second category, just as how I wouldn't think it's fair to assume everyone is in any of the others - it'd be absurd to assume every IPL worker doesn't want to out someone else's victimhood, which is why they haven't said anything publicly, for example. However, not reporting is an incredibly common blame to put on a victim or witness, because it's assumed that by not reporting it, they're essentially enabling the perpetrator to do it again. And I personally just don't think that's just - not without knowing what else weighed into a person's decision not to speak up.

I'm not saying this absolves all of IPL. I especially don't think it absolves the people at the top with Dybowski, who would have been more protected than the bottom-line workers. I simply am asking for some honest-to-god nuance. Personally, I'm still not happy to give IPL any money - not until I know Dybowski is not getting any of it, and measures have been taken to protect their other employees. But I'm also not interested in broad brushing an entire company of twenty years as evil, because the employees haven't made (english) publically available attempts at getting this guy out. We know, by his own accord, Luchin didn't - we know nothing of the others. A conversation with a manager that went badly is not likely to become public knowledge. People lamenting their powerlessness to stop someone to their colleagues or friends won't reach us. Someone quietly resigning because they can't do this anymore, but not being willing to put themselves on the line, is not a detail we're going to have.

I'm happy the silence has, hopefully irrevocably and undeniably, been broken. I'm hoping some people, Dybowski in particular, will face justice, or at least consequences. I hope Renata and her son, as well as Dybowski's other children, are safe and happy. I hope that IPL will do something, and move forward as a better company.

I want them to make a statement about this. That's non-negiotiable, for me, personally. I also want to see a change, and a better company with a better work culture going forward, making games and nurturing a community safely away from all this shit.

However, I accept the grim possibility that this will never happen, and am trying to decide on what that means for me personally moving forward with the fandom. I don't have any moral qualms about piracy, that's not what this is about. And that's the wider conversation I think I personally will need more, moving forward, in regards to my relationship with Pathologic.

That's my two cents.

#pathologic #dybowski allegations #nikolay dybowski #cw: SA #ice pick lodge #pathologic 2 #pathologic 3

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pinkyjulien · 1 year ago

Text

It's been rotating in my head all morning and since I have to wait a few hours to get my day started, might as well throw my two cents in a proper post

We really should talk about Kerry Eurodyne

Now before you run off, I think it's important to point something out; As a fandom veteran who been here since early 2021, I think others will agree when I say that the discourse surrounding Kerry has always been a hot topic that comes back around every few weeks- but why does it keep coming back?

I'm well placed to know that ignoring a problem and not talking about it publicly doesn't solve anything; everyone is quick to throw assumption and accusations, to make "callout" post, to blow things out of proportions, to take someones's squick as personal attack, and the mob mentality does the rest; everyone follow whoever is going to be the loudest about an ongoing "fandom drama"

This isn't an attempt to show anyone that they're "wrong" or "right"; there is no right or wrong in this recurring discourse. This post is an attempt at opening an healthy and mature conversation! I come in peace gfhgfh

Prefacing this by saying that I'm not a Kerry fan, and I'm not bisexual. So why the hell do I care? Well to be frank, I don't particularly care, I have my own opinions on the character, but I do care (to an extent) about this "community" and I hate seeing what happened to me happen to others, especially new commers who never meant anything wrong. Nobody deserves to be bullied out of a fandom for sharing their opinions on their own blog/space!

Alright this intro was long but let's get on it- buckle up cause this is going to be a looooot of rambling

━

Through the years/months, I've noticed something rather sad; this isn't a debate between bisexual people vs biphobic people, as a lot of people might think and assume; this has always been queer people sharing, sometimes in a really awkward and hurtful way, their interpretation of a character (don't block me yet, please hear me out)

Those who know me knows that I personally care a lot about the canon and writers's visions, so first I want to share some posts about Kerry made by his literal "parents"

Mateusz Tomaszkiewicz, Narrative Designer at CDPR, shared informations on the different romance interest back in December 2020, on the game's release day

When asked about a MLM relationship option, here what he states:

(don't leave just yet)

On a now-deleted comment, RTalsorianGames, original creator of the Cyberpunk tabletop game and by definition original creator of Kerry Eurodyne, stated the following:

Please note that CDPR did in fact consult with Mike himself about Kerry being a MLM exclusive romance!

(Also this isn't a debate about if Kerry cares about V or not, let's not derail this conversation, remember that everyone is allowed to interpret a character and a relationship as they wish)

I wanted to share these tweets to point something really important; there is no "right" or "wrong" label for Kerry, and it all boils down to interpretation < key word

Kerry have multiple states; we HAVE to remember Kerry exist in some kind of cyberpunk multiverse!

We have his 2020 and 2023 self that are confirmed to be bisexual; this is the Kerry Mike and RTalsorian created, the Kerry they have full control and say over; the same young Kerry we see in Johnny's flashback

And then comes his 2077 self, which we see confirmed above as labeled as Homosexual (which again as been approved by Mike himself)

I personally think it's important to start with what his different creators have to say; Kerry is both Mike's and CDPR's character; Kerry is both labeled as being Bisexual and Homosexual

There is a lot of reasons why this change / evolution was made, even tho we all know the main reason; they needed a MLM romance in the game to complete the LI roster. But why take an already established character, a Bi character even, for the Gay romance?

I've seen a lot of people saying that CDPR erased his bisexuality, I understand why it might feel like this, but I don't think it's true or fair! Again, remember that Mike gave his OK for this; he could've at any moment said no, Kerry is HIS baby first and foremost

In game, we learn about Kerry's ex wife and kids; this is something CDPR could've not included at all (and THIS would've been erasing his bisexuality imo) it's not even something that is said out loud, but something to be found by dedicated fans; it's here on purpose, to give depth to the character and to his personal life!

We also see a couple of feminine clothes around his villa; let's not assume anything here, clothes have no genders especially in the 2077 setting, but it can also well point at one-night stand with women and/or multi-gender orgies for example

But, this won't be anything new or controversial, Kerry pushes femV advances in game- this is simply a fact! Like it or not, that's how CDPR's writers, RTAL and Mike decided to evolve Kerry's character for the game; everyone was ok with this

━

Now comes the root of the debate; Is it homophobic to mod Kerry to be romanceable by a femV? and is it biphobic to not be comfortable with this?

No, and no - (don't leave just yet, please read a bit more)

Remember that I'm "just" a gay man, I've had discussion with friends of all gender and orientation about this topic and it's been enlightning to hear the different opinions on the matter!

As previously mentioned, it all boils down to Interpretation.

The discourse recently came back because someone shared their uncomfortableness regarding mods that change Kerry's preferences; in the post tags, OP made sure to say that everyone was free to do anything, to ship anything, and that this was just their opinion; but obviously the fandom didn't read that part and started to throw accusation around, and here we are (I shouldn't have to remind people that we all are free to share whatever on our respective blogs, if it hurts you just block the person, don't jump them)

OP is a Bisexual Man; a lot of other Bisexual Men related to this post and rebloged it, sharing their thoughts in the tags (I also rebloged it, I know it caused a few people to back off and block me as a result, which I respect totally)

Going to pick up my questions back up to hopefully state my opinions and "analyses" of the situation as clear as possible

Is it homophobic to mod Kerry to be romanceable by a femV?

No, it's not

Kerry is bisexual, he was married to a women, and potentially still have sex with women and fem individuals, these infos are all canon in game.

Kerry pushes femV flirts away; but since he experience attraction to women, who is to say that in someone's own canon, their fem OC isn't a V, and doesn't have Johnny involved, changing how Kerry and their OC meet drastically; Kerry could fall in love with her! He could; he's bisexual after all.

Is it biphobic to not be comfortable with this?

No, it's not

Kerry has a clear preference for men; CDPR choose to show this multiple time in the game, during Johnny's flashback we can see him make out with a masc fan, we can see him being vulnerable with Johnny (imo, his lil crush is showing hard)

I personally haven't seen it/heard it in game, but I've been told that after learning about Kerry's ex-wife, Johnny has a vocal, surprised reaction, has if imagining Kerry with a woman is strange to him

However, there is a lot of biphobic things being said in the discourse, and not in the way you might think of

I thankfully never see the full extent of it; I don't see the obviously biphobic takes, stating that Kerry SHOULD NEVER be with a femV, people being nasty and ATTACKING femV/Kerry shippers; this is never ok, these have been blocked for a long time now

But I sadly see the other takes, which always icked me a bit; the takes that say, "you bisexuality isn't worth of respect if it isn't a 50/50 attraction at all time", takes that are sadly biphobic in nature (making it clear that I'm not pointing finger at anyone, nor am I accusing anyone of being biphobic)

This is what it boils down to, I think, this is the root of the problem

As mentioned before, a lot of Bisexual Men expressed their uncomfort when it comes to femV/Kerry mods; it invalidated Kerry's preference. But this isn't about Kerry, he's fictional, he CANT be hurt by anything, by mods or art or whatever; It invalidate Bisexual Men that share the same preference in Men, Bisexual men that related to Kerry for X or Y.

Bisexuality is a spectrum, queer people has been fighting against Bi erasure for years, but also against Bi stereotypes; and I think this is one of them? (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

Bisexuality isn't a strict 50/50 split preference- it can be! But 60/40, 20/80 and even 99/1 attractions are still Bisexual attractions. I've met a lot of queer people who, despite being bisexual by definition, choose not to label as such (prefering to label as straight or gay depending on their preferences) just because of this "bisexual police" imposing a strict 50/50; "How can you be bisexual, you've only dated men/women" etc

This is what is being imposed in the fandom, this is how it might looks like to people; when you attack a Bisexual Man sharing his uncomfort in seeing people not respecting a Bisexual character's preference, you're telling them "Hey, your bisexuality isn't valid if you have a preference". You're telling them "Your bisexuality isn't correct". You're showing them that you "fixed" a "flawed" bisexual character "that got erased as gay for having a preference" by "modding his bisexuality back"

Kerry being written as MLM exclusive in Cyberpunk 2077 isn't bi erasure; he's still Bisexual, he simply has a strong preference for Men. A preference that he always had, but that can also be amplified after his divorce with his ex wife, for multiple reasons; I also don't have to point out how many queer people in real life explored their homosexuality after being in a hetero-marriage for most of their lives! And that's ok, queer love is an ever evolving spectrum, and I think it's awesome we get more fleshed out characters that explore this in depth

I've seen people compare Kerry to Johnny, and I don't think it's fair; for the simple reason that Kerry is a romance option and Johnny is not.

Johnny express a clear preference for women; however he replies to V (and flirt, in some case) the same way regardless of gender! Kerry on the other end, as previously said, pushed femV's advanced away. Something Johnny can't do since he's not a romance option; tho if he was, and if he was pushing mascV advances away, it would be the exact same situation and same problematic!

Another character that is canonly bisexual is Goro; he replies to V's flirt through text messages the exact same way, he doesn't seem to express any preferences (and no, his "obligation in japan" isn't necessarily a wife, this is heteronormative and another problem all together, not the subject here)

People can express being uncomfortable seeing Johnny with a given gender, or Goro with a given gender; but there isn't any """reason""" to it outside of personal preferences

Kerry situation is problematic because it lies in his clearly, canonly stated preference, how people decide to interpret it, and how it can come off to other queer people who might share sexuality and/or preference with the character

━

Everyone is free to ship whoever however they want

But please; remember that everyone is different. People being uncomfortable with a character bisexuality preference being ""fixed"" shouldn't be too surprising; and if it is, please re-read my post/ You have to be ok with this fact, it's OK to make content that might be uncomfortable for others; this is fiction!

There isn't any Right or Wrong way to be bisexual, to be queer Kerry's bisexuality is perfectly fine; unmodded or modded Everyone is Different; Every Queer experiences is different People relate to characters in different way

Nobody is being misoginist; there isn't any double standard at play

Bisexual people sharing their opinions on their own blogs on how a fandom handle a character's bisexuality isn't biphobic, or an attack to anyone who interpret the character differently!

I promise you nobody is attacking anyone, and a lot of things being said accidently comes off as biphobic on both sides of this eternal "debate"

It all comes down to respecting others interpretations, and agreeing to disagree! Tumblr's filtering system work great, you can easily filter and block tags, or even people if needed

I might've said things awkwardly, and for this I apologise; but don't put words I didn't say into my mouth! If you don't agree, that's fine, and you're more than welcome to filter/block me if needed; but please do not paint me as biphobic or misoginist, same goes to everyone who shared their thoughts on the matter, these are serious accusation and can wrongfully hurt a lot of people

Ship and let Ship, take care of yourselves and remember to curate your space 🙏

#Cyberpunk 2077 #Kerry Eurodyne #fandom discourse #Long post #like-LOOOOONG LONG LONG post ghfhgfh #feeling like sharing my opinions on things a lot latetely don't mind me much #but I think it's important to have an open mind and think for ourselves - to not follow mob mentality #and to understand where everyone is coming from - to try and see opinions from every sides #fandom wank

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longing-for-rain · 4 months ago

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Just so you know, some of your anons are coming from a blog called @mal3vol3nt

I do not know if you’re aware, but she’s chronically obsessed with you and has also been sharing your ao3 on Twitter and inciting harassment there too, saying you’re “racist” and a “degenerate” and accusing you of writing underage. Her blog lately is mainly posts about you and it sounds very similar to some of your anons

I had to check this out for myself and...wow. All I can say is just...wow 🤣

No, I actually had no idea who this person was but from the looks of it she's been obsessed with me for months? I guess that explains the anons, I knew these people were mad, but apparently they've been over here steaming over my takes and are legitimately terrified of me. And I didn't even know them! Didn't realize I've been doing numbers on Twitter (or X whatever it is now) despite never having an account.

(The rest is below; please don't click if you do not wish to see insensitive discussions of rape or if you are not in the mood to read opinions so malformed they will melt your brain)

I guess I have another angry little troll who doesn't know what a captial letter is obsessed with me. Wish I could say it was the first time, but alas. A lot of particularly funny things here though.

> Advertising your terrible ragebait Twitter like anyone finds you important

Lmao.

> "write fanfiction of katara being raped so zuko can save her"

What a terrible misread of the point of that story, but then again, I don't expect much else from a terminally online crybaby who exclusively consumes media for children. If you can't handle adult discussions about adult topics, maybe don't read stories that are clearly marked 18+ and with far more extensive trigger warnings than any mainstream media will give you.

> "measuring the size of her breasts and hips"

Lmao. I said she is drawn differently in different scenes. That's it. You guys are another level of unhinged.

> "obviously fetishes and racism"

It's kind of creepy how they sexualize Zutara, while simultaneously accusing us of doing that. Why do you assume a fetish is the only reason behind someone liking a ship? Why would you say this about a group of people including many black, brown, and indigenous women? And minors? And if you want to get into the whole fetish thing, don't even get me started on the shit I've seen from the kataang fandom. Hint: when I say some of you have a "mommy fetish" I mean it in a very literal sense. Not to mention the whole kataang rape discord debacle.

> "sick fantasies about these minor characters"

I have never depicted a minor in a sexual situation. I make a point to explicitly avoid doing that, and all characters are depicted as adults. Your lack of media literacy isn't an argument. If you're going to criticize my writing, at least read it, which you clearly didn't. And if the content is too upsetting for you, you clearly lack the maturity to engage in these kinds of discussions.

Imagine treating ship discourse this seriously, actually unhinged. Who said that Ember Island Players is the real Katara? What? She talks a big number about coke-fueled rants, must have given it a try herself. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you never say anything of substance and screech "racism" or "colonizer" every other word but can't even articulate the significance of those terms? Honestly, at this point you sound like a right-winger who thinks saying "but I'm [identity] and I agree with [opinion]" is a golden ticket to winning every argument.

And look at this: apparently I deserved all the things she and her friends sent me? Actually I respect this take, at least she's honest about it unlike the people who cry and backpeddle when they get caught red-handed.

I'm actually cackling at this one. Genuinely laughing; my neighbors are probably concerned. It's like you took every single Bad Person Allegation and threw it into a blender. And to top it all off, apparently 24 is "pushing 30" now LMAO. And apparently I, a lesbian, could only possibly like Zutara because I think Zuko is hot. Not to mention the way they entirely miss the point of Zutara, but ATLA itself, by insisting that Zuko is a "violent imperialist" who is apparently unworthy of love by anyone who does not share his skin tone. Kind of ironic coming from the people crying that I'm a racist who doesn't understand the show. Next level clownery.

This is so funny. These people are absolutely terrified of me, no amount of unhinged anons will hide that. It's fine for men to tell me I deserve rape and death, that I'm a dirty pervert for daring to speak out about sexual trauma, and that women's sexual trauma is nothing but a fetish, but if I respond to that man telling him he should die for being so disrespectful and misogynistic to rape victims, I'm the monster? I stand by it. If you think what he said about rape and rape victims is acceptable, especially if you're a man, die! Hang from ropes, as I said.🥰

I guess I should be really scared though. This is clearly a very influential figure in the fandom who is renowned for her enlightened wisdom on the plight of fictional cartoon characters against evil imperialists like me (adult with job).

...oh wait. I was excited for a minute, I thought I was dealing with a celebrity. But even the "callouts" struggle to hit 20 notes :/

And to everyone sending me positivity during this time, thank you very much! But I wanted to show you this to assure you I'm doing just fine. People can act as weird as they want behind a gray face, but after seeing the kinds of whiny little brats they are in reality, it's pretty hard to take it seriously. "I got my plane ticket" my ass, that would require you to leave your decaying, trash-filled apartment.

#tw sa mention #anti kataang #zutara discourse #atla #avatar the last airbender #avatar fandom problems #ask #anon

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dosesofcommonsense · 25 days ago

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Hey man! Before you delete this ask because I call myself a leftist, I want you to read over this ask. I genuinely have no ill intent towards you, I just want to know how you would explain something. If you can give me a solid answer, you'd have "owned this lib". I legitimately want to give you the chance to speak.

Recently, (based on your posts, what I assume to be) your party made a move to kill a non-partisan government funding bill, at the will of Elon Musk. For this, the party risked governmental shut-down so they could make their changes to the bill. This is not where my question lies.

Among the cuts made in the bill, the party cut 120 billion dollars in pediatric cancer research. I am simply asking if MAGA and Republican party supporters can justify this.

Can you please explain why your party took away (possibly vital) cancer research for children?

I got asked this and attempted to reply privately in chat, but I was not able to reply in chat. So, everyone gets to see the ask and response.

Liberal voters used to be seen as voters willing to consider all options. That’s changed over the years. I’m not interested in “owning a lib”. I like discourse and civil posts….or mostly civil posts. I’m not perfect. I am passionate about my cause and certain topics.

I’m not necessarily in a specific political party. I’m a constitutional conservative. Currently, I align with MAGA, which is a nationalistic and populist movement housed under the Republican Party. Trump wisely hunkered under that umbrella instead of further dividing the voters and creating another party. RFKjr tried that in opposition to Jill Stein’s Libertarian group. While he surpassed her numbers as the official 3rd party (impressive), he couldn’t surpass Trump under the Republican canopy. When RFKjr joined Trump, the Unity Ticket surpassed the Democrats/Democrat Socialists and Biden’s illegal voting machine. The election and voting base was too big for the DNC to rig.

I’m not a fan of the bill that passed. Read my posts and you’ll find I want much shorter bills with much less spending in them. I like the bill that passed in comparison to the original, but I want even shorter bills with even more transparency than Elon promoted and successfully utilized on X.

**Elon spiked attention. The people who voted for Trump/Vance and the Unity Ticket spoke and got a response. Elon helped kill the bill, but he didn’t do it by himself.

**Non-Partisan? Ha! That bill was fat with Elitism.

I’ll answer your question after I ask two.

1. Are you willing to pay $120B in cancer research AND pay all the other money in that bill?

2. If you dig into my posts, you’ll see cancer treatments outside of Big Medicine and Big Pharma have been discovered to great effects (curing cancer). The methods already exist. What else is there to research?

——

Inside our medical community, have they touted these findings? No. They silence them and push cancer research and chemo. Chemo isn’t a cure. It’s the Trail of Tears assault on the human body. Chemo kills everything but isn’t guaranteed to kill the cancer. Strange, huh?

At which point was this cancer research designated? The research into developing more cancer, the management of the cancer, the “treatment” against the cancer, the treatment of the secondary and tertiary developments, or shutting down the findings outside of Big Pharma about eradicating cancer?

Have you listened to the drug commercials? 90% of drugs mention a cancer warning. “Treat your eczema but run the risk of severe bleeding, tuberculosis, cancer and 15 other things.” Those commercials don’t say cure. They say treat your issue. A patient cured is money lost. A patient cured is leverage lost. A kid cured is the most offensive thing to Big Pharma because child patients have the greatest potential to be in the healthcare system the longest. Hook them early on one “doctor prescribed medicine” and pass them along to more and more. There’s a pill for this and a pill for that, and a new pill for the adverse reactions of pills 1 and 2. Maybe that sounds harsh to you, but it’s true. 95% of our “doctors” are salesmen intend on you taking something for something; most don’t know ethical medical practices about holistic care because Big Pharma paid for their medical schooling. That evidence is out there. Big Pharma brags about it.

Our medical community and government spending needs an overhaul. The two are tied together and the bond needs to be severed. At this point, all these different endeavors should be GoFundMe donation platforms. That’s essentially what St. Jude does. So, whether it’s cancer, ALS, PETA, The Boston Symphony, University endowments, Big Auto, radio stations, media outlets, or all these science experiments studying cocaine effects on fish and rats and flies eating beagles, find someone else besides the government to fund the endeavor.

I cannot explain what made the cut and what didn’t. Personally, I’d have closed the government till 1/20, but that didn’t happen. Wouldn’t that be scary? No. Not a big deal.

Instead, the 1500+ package was whittled down to 116 pages - I think that was the number. Whatever made the cut is still too much for a country $36 Trillion in debt and with a Congress with a majority body possessing zero knowledge on money, budgets, zero balanced budgets, paying off debt, credit limits/debt ceiling, or spending more than $2T over budget. You and I might be able to talk money. The bulk of Congress doesn’t understand that it’s OUR money not the government’s money; they see a prepaid debit card with zero limits and think they can spend whatever they want on anything. Because of that, we’re $36T in debt and Big Pharma continues to “research” cancer treatments without ever finding a cure. Would you find a cure and stop the flow of money?

#truth #big pharma #doctor or salesman #cancer #government spending #government waste #congress #spending bill #elon musk #x #medical research #discourse #civil discourse #government shutdown

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olderthannetfic · 1 year ago

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So I'm new to fandom, despite being of fairly advanced years (relatively speaking) and it's been a strange and fascinating experience. It's been fun and liberating but a lot of things were quite new to me. The sheer volume of terms I was coming across at the beginning that I had never heard before could (and I'm assuming probably does) fill a dictionary. And I had no idea what shipping discourse was (I do miss not knowing).

I'm not sure how correct this is but I feel like to some degree, certain puritanical attitudes are quite wide-spread. I've seen it in fics I've come across, in the notes the author leaves, in the way they write certain topics and ideas. (I don't mean content warnings or tags) Being unfamiliar with these spaces and trying my best to take cues from what I see, the impression I got early on was that people expected everything to be prim and proper and "not problematic". I don't know if this is a reflection of our current media landscape and societal attitudes in general or if this has always been the case in fandom. I try to just write what satisfies me, engage with what pleases me and just generally try to live and let live, but I am genuinely curious if this has always been a thing.

People like that have always existed. They used to mostly hang out in het spaces though. AO3 was built to house the nasty porn and is intended for adults who understand how to operate the back button.

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cassowariess · 2 months ago

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for the ask game: 1, 12, 24 :)

No fandom was specified but I'm going to assume it's Better Call Saul. Also bear in mind that while I've watched Breaking Bad pretty much annually for several years, I only just finished Better Call Saul 2 weeks ago, so I'm fairly new to this fandom and don't 100% know what the common trends have been over time, only what I can see recently.

1.)the character everyone gets wrong:

I don't know how long it's been going on for, but I haven't seen many takes on Nacho that I agree with. I feel like fandom has defanged him and he's been mostly been reduced to being shipped with Lalo (and I want to make clear that I'm not trying to shit on people's fun! I've shipped plenty of crackships etc in my time.) It's just this is the first fandom I've been in where I have no interest in shipping anything and I wish there was more out there about Nacho's psychology and his bond with Mike. He quickly became one of the most fascinating characters to me, because like Mike, he's trying to navigate a world with a moral code in which moral codes will always fail. You can't be a member of the cartel without hurting other people. Your loved ones (and innocent strangers like the Good Samaritan) will always be in the line of fire.

I am dying for more art and fic about Mike reluctantly becoming attached to a morally corrupt surrogate son, in contrast to Matty who was a "straight arrow." Mike is a mirror image of Nacho, whose own straight arrow is his father.

Also woefully missing from the fandom: more of Nacho being a snarky bitch. Teasing/frightening Jimmy and trying to kill multiple Salamancas is hot.

12.the unpopular character that you actually like and why more people should like them:

Gale! Why isn't there more of them? Of all the career criminals in Gus's employ, he seems like the only genuinely "nice" one? I still think he's complicit in what is a business that relies on atrocities, but he seems to just want to do his job and then go home and tend to his nerdy hobbies, which is relatable. It's also hilarious how much he's crushing on Walter in BB.

Please point me in the direction of any Gale art that is out there!

Also, no joke. I went to see my friend in Manchester today and we randomly walked into a cafe we hadn't been to before for lunch and THIS was on the menu:

Of course it's the vegan option!

24.)topic that brings up the most rancid discourse

Once again, since I'm fairly new to this fandom, I haven't really seen much discourse. The closest I've seen is people saying "well I hate this particular character, who is a piece of shit criminal and a hypocrite and did terrible things" and then reveal what their favourite character is, and surprise! The blorbo also happens to be a piece of shit criminal and a hypocrite who did terrible things. And I'm here like:

#better call saul #breaking bad #ask games #nacho varga #gale boetticher #mike erhmantraut

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golden--goofball · 4 months ago

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Hello :D (Anon since I’m a tiny bit nervous to ask, even though we are mutuals)

So you seem fairly educated on the topic of proshipping and the stuff involving it, and also like a pretty nice human being and I’ve been a bit confused about certain things regarding the topic so I thought I may as well ask

(Just to make it clear if anything in this comes off as mean-spirited or condescending you have my genuine apology I mean everything in this neutrally, I’m still new to the whole discourse so yeah if I’m accidentally misusing terms here or something correct me)

What exactly defines “proship” media? Like, what’s all that falls under the term? Because I had for the longest time assumed it was just adult x child, incest and other ships like that, but I’ve seen (on the very unreliable source that is Pinterest) that people call shipping yourself with fictional characters proship as well?? Which I just kinda assumed was normal- And stuff like bully x victim, some enemies to lovers tropes and even just kinks in general too, so yeah I’m very confused about what exactly “proship” even is at this point.

Also, adding onto the previous question, does all media that includes themes of s/a, incest etc. count as proship? Not just works that romanticise it but also stories that have characters that do such things even when the story portrays them as an immoral character? Or is it only when it’s portrayed in a good light?

Sorry for the long ask I’m just genuinely confused and curious, thank you in advance if you ever decide to answer <3

Have a wonderful day/evening/night

WOO okidoki this is a lot but i will do my best!! no worries about the length!! ^^

so, i'm sure you've seen it already, but i'm gonna put this chart image thingy here, just for convenience sake.

soooo letsss try to tackle this

please keep in mind (while i do appreciate you seeing me as super educated!! thank you!!! ^^ /gen) i am not actually the most knowledgeable individual and might get some stuff wrong, word things wrong, or not be able to answer certain things! especially since a lot of this stuff is very subjective and dependant on who you ask :3

"what exactly defines proship media?" if i'm being in 100% honest here, i don't really know! kind of an anticlimactic one to start on, i know, but i'll still try to answer. proship content, to me, is defined as content made by a proship individual or group of proship individuals with the intent of being for fellow proship individuals. this content may be completely normal fandom content that just happens to be made by someone who's proship, or may contain and explore dark themes. REAL PROSHIP CONTENT ACCEPTED BY THE WIDER COMMUNITY WILL NEVER ENCOURAGE OR PROMOTE THE BEHAVIOR DEPICTED IN THE DARKER CONTENT!!! actively promoting things like r*pe, pro-contact pedophilia, etc is NOT a proship value and its strongly discouraged and disliked by the general community.

not all media that explores these themes is considered proship. as i've said a lot of it depends on who you ask! unfortunately i really can't answer more than that :((

i hope this still helps out though!! thank you so much for the ask, anon!! (^o^)丿

#asks!#ty for being so kind anon!!#profic #profiction #profic safe #profic please interact #anti harassment

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telleroftime · 1 year ago

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It is a spectrum though. You’re literally ignoring your own people and trying to shut them down because they’re not EXACTLY like you. I’m ace and have been married for 15 years. Love my husband dearly, still ace. People like me exist and I’m fucking tired of a bunch of teenagers yelling about how we don’t, and that people are wrong for bringing up that we do. Literally fuck off, we are not all the same.

Okayy, this is regarding the Alastor post I assume so let's get straight into that.

The two posts I have made about the issue are both about me advocating that asexuality is a spectrum and that people jumping on the defensive and claiming how "Alastor can't be in a relationship" and "Alastor is ace so he can't have sex" are inherently wrong. Naturally there are people that are aceflux, demisexual, etc. and asexuality is beyond what the stereotype dictates. Some ace people are sex repulsed, others are hypersexual. Some feel little sexual attraction and some feel none at all yet still engage with sexual relationships. There isn't one little box that all asexuals fit under, and the same goes to the aromantic spectrum.

I thought I made this view clear in my recent post but I suppose I should have worded it better. I'm the one commenting that "he can engage in those sorts of relationships." There are too many people that comment the fact Alastor is asexual as a sort of shut-down of Alastor thirst-traps and edits. So much that it gets irritating. Most are people that want to don the white-knight armour and defend the illusion of what they think being asexual is, whilst others are people that don't understand that asexuality does not mean sex-repulsion. Arguing back with those people is amusing to me and at the same time I hope to break through some of the miss-information and stereotypes that non-asexual people seem to hold.

I completely understand if you haven't read over the comments under the other post seeing as I think you came from the more recent one - I don't expect that you have read them so please don't see this as an attack, I understand if you haven't - but I've made my stand on this pretty clear and inline with what you've sent in:

"We're not told what type of ace he is and where he fits under the umbrella. The most we've seen in regards to his opinion is the "haha, never going to happen" comment. Like with any label, asexuality is a spectrum. He could be be aceflux or demisexual."

"People need to understand that having an ace character fuck or headcanoning them to be somewhere else on the ace spectrum is not erasure."

And yeah, that post was regarding that whole "ace erasure" discourse but I'm not going to get into that again. I'll only directly quote the main body of that post: "An asexual person can fuck. Just... in case people didn't know. They can because libido is not exclusive to sexual attraction. Just saying." (Once again, I'm not expecting you to have read that before sending the ask in).

Overall I'm sorry that you felt personally attacked over that and sorry that the way I worded the post seemed to have brought on some confusion. I know asexuality is a spectrum. I know each asexual person is different. I wish other people understood that before throwing Alastor into a neatly defined box and bashing others when they take him out of it. Once again, I'm sorry that my wording caused confusion.

(Although, I would have been happy to simply discuss this topic with you, but if cursing at me makes you feel better then I supposed you can go ahead. Not like I really mind.)

#anyways congratulations on your marriage #alastor #hazbin hotel #alastor hazbin hotel #asexual #yeah lets use that tag - whatever could go wrong #tagging this with the same tags as my other post to hit the same audience

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daydreamerwonderkid · 1 year ago

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Just a general blanket PSA for my new followers or basically anyone that stumbles onto my blog:

Please don't try to engage me in topping vs bottoming discourse.

I literally do not care what your preference is when it comes to any kind of ship. But please do not assume that just because I don't have a horse in this race that I'd actually want to talk horses with y'all.

You're perfectly entitled to your own preferences, but I don't have an interest in debating anyone and if I happen to use a particular tag for a ship pairing, please do not assume I'm making an actual statement in regards to that pairing.

I will repeat: Just because I use a particular tag for a ship pairing doesn't mean I am making a statement regarding who I think is topping or bottoming.

Gonna be real with y'all, I find this kind of "debate" very uncomfortable in the first place as a queer person. I understand where people are coming from when they prefer a certain name order for their ship, but the emphasis on trying to dictate which character gives and who receives ... idk it makes me very uncomfortable and it brings up a lot of homophobic/transphobic related memories and discourse from my earlier stints into fandom spaces.

I'm only bringing this up because I've been noticing certain tags on my ship related posts going into the weeds of this exact topic as well as certain replies I've seen my own followers putting on other people's art.

Again, you're valid in your opinion, but I personally find it rude and unnecessary to dictate to other people (especially on someone else's art) which naming order they should use for a certain ship on their own posts.

Idk I thought I had left this kind of discourse all the way back in 2012, but here we are.

Anyway that's the end of my PSA. Please be respectful to each other and please stop trying to drag me into these kind of discussions.

I hope you all have a great day 💗

#dreamer talks #fandom #fandom discourse #shipping #shipping discourse #i really didnt want to make this post #but idk I'm not comfortable with seeing this #showing up so much #pls do not try to debate me or lecture me on shipping discourse #i will delete your replies and tags if you do #I'm not comfortable with this topic #please respect that #thank you

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w31rdm4g3dd0n · 1 month ago

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(Tl;dr for those who don't want to scroll down or can't: DID is a Dissociative Disorder as well as most likely a Trauma-Based disorder due to the levels of dissociation typically required. Yes, I am pro-endo and have always been pro-endo but I have DID and have researched this for a while, however I am not a professional and will never claim to be. If you want to discuss this more, send me a DM or something and we can have a civil discussion over it because arguments get nowhere)

Trauma-Based disorders do exist, though? (Reread the thing so please ignore the first bit. I assumed you said those didn't exist for both and that's my fault, however I don't really wanna delete most of the post because of the transition, so please ignore me) Sure, that's not the point of this post, but the category "Trauma- and Stressor-Based Disorders" exist within the DSM for reason, which can be boiled down (on a basic level) to trauma disorders, because all of them require trauma to occur. So, here's the thing: You're right. Some Dissociative Disorders can form without trauma. Some people with Dissociative Amnesia, for example, claim to have no trauma. However, DID is a CDD, or a Complex Dissociative Disorder. Sure, although heavily associated with trauma, that's the point. The level of dissociation seen in DID is extremely hard to reach without trauma. Some people don't even have that ability naturally. It's why if two children go through the same trauma at the same time, one may develop DID while the other may not.

CDDs, including DID, are heavily trauma-based. I don't typically argue about this because I normally choose to remain neutral, but it's my belief you need some sort of trauma to have a CDD (However, due to the discourse, yes this means any trauma. If it causes a reaction, it's enough. I will also not argue over disordered status, I will just take your word for it because policing stuff is stupid and I won't dig into the trauma of others just for 'proof'). If you ever read anything about DID it will basically always mention trauma. It's why Dissociative Disorders are next to the Trauma-Based Disorders, it's literally written in there that the correlation between trauma and Dissociative Disorders is what caused them to be right next to each other. Yes the DSM does state Dissociative Disorders aren't part of the category, but that's because Dissociative Amnesia and Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder don't require trauma. DID is in the Theory of Structural Dissociation for a reason. It explains trauma-based dissociation, and it even features more than Dissociative Disorders

I've heard the ToSD is apparently being recalled, but I have no real proof of that yet

Also, yes, I am pro-endo. I have never once been anti-endo. However, I do have DID and research this topic as a hobby (Although I'm nowhere near a professional). Also, disorders can be in multiple categories while only being written in one. OCD is not only an Obsessive-Compulsive and Related Disorder, but also an Anxiety Disorder, yet it's only written in the first mentioned category. There are some exceptions, such as AsPD being written in Condict Disorders (However all the criteria and features are in the Personality Disorders section). But, very few disorders seem to be like that.

Also yes, I saw the tags. PTSD is not the only trauma-based disorder. Acute Stress Disorder is another type, and there's another I can't remember the name of off the top of my head. PTSD is the most well known, but not the only one.

As always, if you ever want to discuss this (This goes to anyone reading this btw), I can! Civil conversations are great.

I'm probably gonna delete this later due to anxiety tho so eh

DID is not a trauma disorder. Nor is it a plurality disorder (those don't exist).

It's a dissociative disorder. It's commonly associated with trauma but you don't need trauma to have it. Just like you don't need trauma to have any other dissociative disorder.

#syscourse #tw syscourse #cw syscourse #i hope im not considered being annoying about this #ptsd isnt the only traumabased disorder like the tags imply though #im also pro-endo btw #although im defending traumagenic only DID here I used to fight for DID not being trauma-based so I do know both sides at least a little bi #also due to this I will say im neutral #i don't really know why im even replying to this other than my beginning misconception #this will be my only post fighting on this because as I said I do not care #also if someone tells me they have a cdd im not going to question it because thats kind of stupid #oh btw I am pro non disordered systems and believe endogenics can have did as long as they have some trauma #no that doesnt defeat the purpose of the term endogenic because origin terms are words to describe experiences #also endogenic systems can have trauma #some dont but some do

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wheel-of-fish · 3 years ago

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Saturday Streams FAQ

I probably should've done this years ago, but here we are! It wouldn't hurt to read it, even if you're a regular!

Why do these streams exist? They're an opportunity to showcase different, sometimes less accessible actors and productions, and I especially love the sense of community that comes with a regular get-together. It's basically just a fun hangout.

Which version(s) of Phantom do you stream? Usually the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, any time from 1988 to present day. It's often from the U.S. or UK, but I do international productions, too. There are no subtitles for those, but if you've got a decent understanding of the show, you'll still have a good time!

Sometimes I'll stream a different Phantom adaptation altogether, but that's harder to do with CyTube mostly restricted to YouTube videos.

Can anyone attend? Yes, within reason. Please do not come to hate-watch. I also reserve the right to boot people who are disruptive or combative.

Is there an age restriction? Technically no, as that's not something I can enforce. However, the vast majority of attendees are adults; if you're uncomfortable with adult conversation, it might not be the best environment for you. Hiding the chat is an option, however.

How does a stream work? Fifteen minutes before the start time, I open a private room on CyTube by posting the link and a stream-specific password here on tumblr. CyTube is available on both desktop and mobile, but desktop seems to be generally preferred among streamers. You can sign up for a free account beforehand if you'd like, but it's not necessary!

If you're logged in when you enter the password, you'll show up under your registered username. Otherwise, you'll join anonymously. If you'd like to participate in the chat without an account, there's a "Guest login" box at the bottom of the chat where you can enter a temporary username.

How long does it last? Depends on when you arrive and how long you stay! I provide pre-stream entertainment once the room opens. The show runs about two hours, and there's a 10-minute intermission at the end of act 1. Some people also stick around to chat and watch videos after!

Can I watch anonymously? Yes! See logistics above for details.

Am I expected to participate in discussion if I'm off anon? Nope! I'll be notified that you've joined and there's a decent chance you'll be greeted by name, but otherwise, you're free to fade into the background.

What if I can only attend part of the stream? You can join and/or leave at any time—multiple times, even. I will be notified when you join the chat (assuming you're not anonymous), but not when you leave.

How many people attend? Anywhere from 40-60 on average (the record is 92), including anons. Most people are from tumblr, since that's where I advertise.

What can I expect from the chat? We're pretty laid back and are happy to answer any stream- or Phantom-related questions. Chat moves at a fast pace, so messages can sometimes be overlooked or forgotten—it's not personal!

And again, we're mostly adults kicking back for the night. If you're bothered by the possibility of language, alcohol, other adult themes, and/or general thirst, this might not be the place for you.

Is there a general code of conduct? My latest mantra is "good vibes." Please show up with good intentions and assume others have them as well. We're there to enjoy a video and each other's company, so it's not really a good venue for serious discourse.

Please leave negativity toward characters, ships, headcanons, actors, and/or adaptations at the door—and yes, that includes hot-button topics such as the 2004 film, Ramin/Sierra, and Raoul. Everyone comes in with different tastes and experiences. Some people have had limited exposure, while others have been around for years and seen every debate or hot take in existence. Shaming for any reason is not OK. When we do watch a more questionable production, we aim to have fun with it rather than tear it apart.

We strongly encourage building up the things you like and ignoring those you don't! Just please avoid spamming/monopolizing the chat, and remember that your headcanons, interpretations, and/or preferences might not be universally shared.

Also, we're not perfect! Please feel free to address things that make you particularly upset or uncomfortable.

Can I talk about things unrelated to the stream? To a point! Discussion will absolutely wander, but any extended analyses, one-on-one conversations, and/or off-topic discussions should be moved elsewhere if possible. (CyTube does have a direct message function!) Please also be mindful of sensitive topics that can potentially be upsetting.

What if I don't like someone's contributions to the chat? If they're bad enough that you can't ignore, you have a few options: 1) Mute the user, 2) respectfully address your concerns with the person in chat/DM as appropriate, or 3) DM me (if it's an issue you think is more broadly disruptive).

What about additional CyTube questions I have? Please see the CyTube FAQ or user guide.

Can I make requests? Please let me know if there's someone/something you'd really like to see, and I'll put it on the request list (which is long, so no guarantees that I'll get to it right away)!

I take VERY LIMITED rewind requests during streams; please ask for them sparingly! I don't take requests for pre-show or intermission videos anymore (they can get overwhelming), but you can ask for whatever you'd like to be played post-stream.

Are there stream traditions or inside jokes I should know about? I was specifically asked to include some of these in the FAQ, so here you go:

We named the mannequin Barbara (Barb).

It's common to yell SECURE or its foreign-language equivalent when the police chief in act 2 asks whether the doors are secured.

There's a running joke that Piangi is only napping when the Phantom takes over in "Point of No Return," so there's an "N for nap" trend in the chat when he's discovered.

You might see an M for "moisten" when Raoul jumps into the lake, as he is literally moistened backstage afterward.

We've headcanoned a 500k slow-burn camping AU (affectionately known as the CAU) for Raoul/Mme Giry based on some weird tension that occasionally crops up in their scenes together. idk.

Any references to @glassprism being married to a certain restaged tour actor are most definitely a joke.

We also joke about her having a portrait in the attic that ages any time someone complains about the Phantom not catching Christine at the mirror (which is not typical outside of London due to safety concerns). This happens often.

We're playfully divided on whether "fathering" or "far-reaching" is better. It gets talked about a lot.

We often reference past performances or actors we've seen. If there's something you'd like clarified, you can ask! We won't mind!

Where do the bootlegs come from? Resident bootleg queen, trader, and expert @glassprism has been kind enough to share her collection nearly every week for years, and I am forever grateful.

Aren't bootlegs illegal and bad? This is a debate for another place and time, but from my perspective, bootlegs are helping the theater community more than hurting it. They provide access for people who can't otherwise afford or travel to see shows, they expand fans' knowledge of/appreciation for specific actors/productions, and they have immense archival value as well.

No one is going to choose a bootleg over a live show if the latter is an option, and I think you'll find that this crowd would happily throw tons of cash at the production if it were an option. (In fact, a lot of us have and will continue to do so.)

Please feel free to DM/ask/comment if you have additional questions! I will likely tweak this post as necessary.

#streams #saturday streams #faq

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gallifrey1sburning · 4 years ago

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Hi, I've seen your reply to jalesidor's post on how fandom becomes ever more important the more one realises how disappointing jkr is. In it, you spoke about how both Harry and Draco are queer-coded in canon. Would you mind to expand on that? Or if you already have, would you mind linking that post or the tag under which I can find it? Absolutely no pressure to do so, just if you like! Thank you!

Hi anon! Sorry for the delay in answering; I wanted to do the question justice. I could have thrown some stuff at you off the top of my head, but that didn’t feel right—at my core, I am a Ravenclaw, and I could not bring myself to half-ass this. (For those who haven’t seen the referenced post, you can find it here)

Before I get into my personal analysis, I want to note that there has been a lot of discourse on this topic over the years, so many of my ideas didn’t actually originate with me, they just got incorporated into my mental cache of HP analysis. If you search the tags “canon drarry” or “drarry in canon” or any variation thereon, you’ll get a bunch of posts where people pull excerpts and explain how extremely not heterosexual the things happening in them are. @iamnmbr3 in particular has written a ton of these (which I didn’t realize were all by the same person until I started trying to track them down!), a few favorites being Arthur Weasley clearly thinking Harry’s got a crush, this hilarious list of canonical interactions, Narcissa’s very accurate understanding of how aware Harry and Draco are of each other, and that time Harry got beaned in the head by luggage because he was watching Draco change. Others classics include when @big-draco-energy got an ask about how Harry assumed that Draco must be a Death Eater if he was preoccupied enough to not care about their rivalry (and was right) and when @northward had a great observation about their obsessions with each other.

Seriously, this scene, y’all!

Possibly the most quoted line in Drarry fandom

And now, on to my own thoughts!

So first off, I want to say that some of the things that I’m going to flag as unintentional queer coding are rooted in stereotypes, and that that doesn’t mean that I believe in or condone said stereotypes. However, media often uses stereotyping as a lazy shorthand, and I think that that should be taken into account in this context, because it means there’s a reasonable assumption that people would interpret some character traits and scenes through that lens.

Secondly, so much credit to my amazing friend @mxmaneater, who actually HAS A FOLDER of photos of super gay moments from the books, which saved me a lot of time trying to dig up quotes that I knew existed but wouldn’t have been able to easily track down.

And finally, these are my personal interpretations. I’m not any sort of academic, and we’re all aware that JKR does not believe that she wrote Harry or Draco as queer. I’m hoping folks can be chill and take this in the spirit that it’s intended: as one possible reading. Your beliefs about the series and the characters are your own, and I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong just because they aren’t mine, so please extend me the same courtesy!

Now, without further ado, here we go:

Let’s start with Harry, because that’s the easier lift here. The Harry Potter books are written from a third person limited perspective, which means we only see things from Harry’s point of view and are privy to his thoughts. I can’t find a link, but I know that it’s widely quoted that JKR at some point used the fact that the books are from Harry’s perspective as justification for the ways in which some people or events were portrayed. The answers on this Quora post about pro-Gryffindor bias in the books do a good job of explaining the idea of Harry’s point of view skewing the point of view of the series.

So if we accept that the books reflect Harry’s thoughts and feelings about things, we’re left with the unmistakable fact that he frequently observes how handsome various boys and men are. We have physical descriptions of Cedric Diggory, Bill Weasley, Sirius Black, and even Tom Riddle that clearly illustrate admiration. Additionally, although it’s largely unflattering, it’s often noted amongst fans that we get full physical descriptions of Draco extremely regularly—we know his hair and eye color pretty much from the get go and hear about them often, as well as his outfits, his swagger, his smirking and ‘leering’ (yes, she really uses that word), etc.

Some very heterosexual observations on men from the perspective of one Harry James Potter

Sure, Harry never explicitly says he’s into men, but let’s keep in mind the time period the books were placed in and the type of family that Harry was raised by: there is a very real chance that Harry wouldn’t have been aware of the idea of bisexuality and therefore would never have questioned his own orientation. Because he knew he liked girls, so of course he wasn’t gay! To many folks who later realized they were some form of not-straight, particularly bisexual and/or pansexual folks, this is a pretty common experience: not really registering that checking out people of multiple genders is not actually something that everyone does. *Stares vaguely into the distance while pondering all of the girls I didn’t realize I was crushing on until many years later*

Plus, as I’ve mentioned before, there’s the symbolism of the whole ‘literally being raised in a closet, abused for being a ‘freak’, and forced to keep his truth a secret because the people he lived with were ashamed of him’ thing. To queer people raised by homophobes (or anyone who knew people in that situation), this isn’t even the slightest bit subtle, and the fact that JKR either didn’t notice or is in denial about it is truly bizarre to me.

Draco is a little harder to pin down without delving into stereotyping, so I’m just gonna go for it: Draco is a textbook Drama Gay™. He’s performative in his speech, using a lot of flamboyant gestures; he constantly performs over the top reenactments for his friends; he makes buttons and sews costumes and does drawings and generally just goes through a lot of effort to pick on his ‘rival’. The only scenes where we see him in something that could be read as a heterosexual romantic relationship are with Pansy Parkinson, whom he doesn’t seem remotely interested in; she reads more like a prop that he puts up with to project a particular image. Also, at one point we see him flopped across her lap to have his hair pet, which is definitely a thing that I remember happening during rehearsals back when I was involved in high school theater (and almost never by people with compatible orientations).

And then there’s this scene:

Someone once made a post about just how gay this whole thing is: pointedly grabbing the biggest bowtruckle, whispering in Harry’s ear, smirking over his shoulder while walking away, etc. (If anyone can find it, please send me the link and I’ll add it to the list of other people’s thoughts that contributed to all of this.)

So, that’s what I’ve got for you! Someone could probably write a whole research paper on this (and hell, maybe they have), but hopefully this at least somewhat explains my assertions of queer coding. As a reward for reading all of this, please enjoy a bonus scene of Harry NOT being attracted to a man:

Poor Ron. Maybe next time, buddy.

#harry potter #draco malfoy #queer coding #queer hp #bisexual harry potter #gay draco malfoy #harry potter meta #drarry #canon drarry #this is so long but I had so many thoughts

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