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Episode 112 Transcript: Why Did Lucky The Dog Cross the Road? To Get to Purgatory

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show many, many times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today's episode, we will be discussing Season 6, Episode 8: "All Dogs Go to Heaven," written by Adam Glass, directed by Phil! Phil, you’re back, Phil! Hi, Phil Sgriccia! Directed by Phil Sgriccia.

C: How long have we been without Phil?

G: Let's look up. How long?

C: He directed “Exile on Main St.,” so only seven episodes.

G: Yeah, but that's still a lot to me, I think. I believe.

C: I understand.

G: Adam Glass entered in Season 6. His last ep was "Two and a Half Men," which is the one with the baby, and then this one, and then one called “Like a Virgin.” Is this the one where they become virgins again?

C: I don't know. I feel like that wouldn't be as big of a deal to make it a title.

G: I think that was Season 9 or something, I'm not sure. And then 6.19 is “Mommy Dearest,” the one with Eve, I'm pretty sure. “Party On, Garth,” the one where they drink. "Southern Comfort," the one with Benny.

C: Is that true? Okay, interesting.

G: Oh my god! He wrote “Bad Boys.” That's the big Dean one. People love that one.

C: Yeah, the one where he's at that home for boys, and he's gonna go to the dance with some girl but his dad shows up.

G: And play the guitar, yeah. So true.

C: Yeah. He was gonna be Jensen Ackles.

G: Did you know- Okay, I want to share this to the audience and to you. I haven't told you this, but I went to a party the other day that was supposed to be a Christmas party. But because, as you may remember also from this podcast mentioned before, there was a great big giant typhoon during the Halloween season, so we were like, “Oh, let's make it like a costume party!” [laughg] I didn't go as Dean Winchester because I lost heart, which is very, very, very, very awful, and I should not have done that, but I did go in with my leather jacket, and then somebody-

C: Bruce Springsteen?

G: No, but I was wearing a band shirt inside. A band shirt from Ang Bandang Shirley, my favorite band. A person there asked, “What are you dressed up as?” And I was like, “Oh, I don't know. I guess I'm dressed up as a caricature of myself because this is something that is so stereotypically my outfit.” And she started complimenting my leather jacket and how great she finds it and how much the color is so weird and different from other leather jackets, [C laughs] and I said, “Oh my god, yeah, I got it specifically because during my high school graduation, my creative shot, I dressed up as-” and then I tried to stop myself, [C laughs] and then I was like, “No, let's be who we are. Let's be real to ourselves." "I dressed up as Dean Winchester!” and then they proceeded- this person, and then a couple other people who have crowded around my leather jacket, proceeded to talk about how hot Jensen Ackles is.

C: No!

G: I know!

C: What are they talking about?

G: I thought I was gonna be publicly shamed, and all of them were like "Jensen Ackles is so hot." Isn't that crazy? I thought I was going to be publicly shamed.

C: So it was, in fact, you who was the only cool one there? [G laughs]

G: That's crazy, right? They're all like, "Jensen Ackles is so hot." And someone was like, "Who's Jensen Ackles?" "He played Dean Winchester. I can't believe you don't know what Supernatural is. He's the guy from Supernatural who's so hot." [C laughing] And then they were like, "He's so hot in The Boys as well." Isn't that crazy? [C: Yeah.] What's going on? What is going on?

C: I don't know. I mean, I understand that he's conventionally attractive, but that's a lot of people.

G: But "so hot," quote-unquote? It was a lot of people. It was maximum five people were saying that Jensen Ackles was hot.

C: Maximum or minimum?

G: No, it was five exactly [C laughs] that was saying that Jensen Ackles was hot.

C: Okay, both.

G: Yeah, it was max and min. So that was an event that happened to me.

C: Well, scary.

G: Yeah. But that's completely unrelated to our episode. I just love taking our audience to the journey of my leather jacket. It's a very important facet of my life.

C: So I suppose, to preface this episode, the monster of the week this week is a skinwalker. These are really important parts of Navajo culture and aren't really spoken about outside the Navajo community because like, just various reasons. To respect that, first, I think we're going to call the creature just “a creature” without saying the name during the episode, and secondly, I guess I will read a section of the article “Magic in North America Part 1: Ugh.” by Adrienne K. on the blog Native Appropriations, which is about J.K. Rowling's mention of these creatures in a Harry Potter franchise thing. Basically, after this dropped, this article came out and the writer, Adrienne K., said:

“I had a long phone call with one of my friends/mentors today, who is Navajo, asking her about the concepts Rowling is drawing upon here, and discussing how to best talk about this in a culturally appropriate way that can help you (the reader, and maybe Rowling) understand the depths to the harm this causes, while not crossing boundaries and taboos of culture. What did I decide? That you don’t need to know. It’s not for you to know. I am performing a refusal.

“What you do need to know is that the belief of these things (beings?) has a deep and powerful place in Navajo understandings of the world. It is connected to many other concepts and many other ceremonial understandings and lifeways. It is not just a scary story, or something to tell kids to get them to behave, it’s much deeper than that. My own community also has shape-shifters, but I’m not delving into that either.

“What happens when Rowling pulls this in, is we as Native people are now opened up to a barrage of questions about these beliefs and traditions (take a look at my twitter mentions if you don’t believe me)–but these are not things that need or should be discussed by outsiders. At all. I’m sorry if that seems 'unfair,' but that’s how our cultures survive.

“The other piece here is that Rowling is completely re-writing these traditions. Traditions that come from a particular context, place, understanding, and truth.”

So, yeah, that is our preface.

G: Yep. This one, it's a case episode, so I assume that you don't actually know a lot about it before going in.

C: Yeah, I don't think I knew like, anything.

G: You messaged me, while you were watching it, “What is up with this episode?” [both laugh] I think. At what point did that message come in?

C: When the guy is watching her in the shower. [laughs]

G: Honestly, when the shower scene was happening, I was like, "I almost forgot we were watching a Supernatural episode." I didn't. I did not forget. But in case I did forget, I would have remembered, [C laughs] is what I felt like.

C: What a completely illogical 40 minutes of my time this was.

G: Wait, you didn't like this episode?

C: No.

G: I like cases, and I like case episodes, and I like that there's a case.

C: None of it made sense to me. The emotional core is supposed to be that this guy loves this family and would do anything to protect them, and we don't even get justification for why he killed her husband? [G: No, yeah.] They're trying to tell one thing, and through other actions, they're trying to tell me that he just wants to fuck this woman.

G: No, [laughs] it's so funny because he talked about, “You and the kid are the only people- my only family, the only people who ever showed me kindness.” And it's like, I think the guy was also in the family?

C: You killed that kid's father and that woman's husband! [laughs]

G: And I think if there was a point in the story where the husband hits him, the dog or something, maybe we could understand it a bit better. I still would be like, “That is still her husband and his dad-” like, the kid's dad, so I don't know.

C: If Cal was shown to be abusive in some way to the dog or-

G: Or the family.

C: - anyone in his family, then I would understand. That would pull everything together. But there is no such scene. He's just kind of a deadbeat.

G: And like, it is so wild to me that one of the red herrings is, "This guy can drink a lot." [laughs] I find that so fascinating that they did that. Good on you, Supernatural, the show where everyone is drinking a lot all the time. [C: Yeah.] But I enjoy case episodes. What can we do? Many things. Probably not watch Supernatural is one of the things we can do. [C: True.] Except we can't! Because I love doing this podcast! So yeah, unfortunate. Or very fortunate. Who knows?

G: Spotify Wrapped is out, and podcasts also get their own Spotify Wrapped, and we just want to say thank you to the people who had us in their top 10, the people had us in their top 5, and specifically the 25 people who were listening to us as their number one podcast! [C: Thank you.] Thank you so much. It's so sweet and so wonderful. And thank you to the people, or I think one person, who has sent us regards regarding this.

We start the episode with a “Then” sequence. And our “Then” sequence actually goes all the way back to Madison. [C: Yeah.] Love it. [laughs] And like, I think the point is that they were trying to establish that one, Sam still has his memories, and so he remembers Madison. Two, the biggest red herring of this episode is that we think the whole time, pretty much, that it's a werewolf, but it's not. Yeah, that's pretty much it. Those are the reasons why Madison is here. And I think also that Sam being able to talk about Madison with levity as opposed to, you know, his like, "I don't care about Lisa or Ben or you,” which is the funniest fucking thing he ever said. [C: Yeah. Love it.] "You know how I pretend to care about Lisa? I actually don't." [laughs] So true. Aside from that, we just get regular schmegular stuff. And then we go to a guy who is- at first, I couldn't understand what he was saying. I think I had to open my subtitles to understand him, but he's talking to someone over the phone, and he's talking about either his dog or a kid. [laughs]

C: Dog.

G: Is he talking about the dog?

C: Yeah, because he asked if the person or whatever he's talking about pooped after being taken to the park specifically.

G: Yeah, you can say that about a baby. "Did you take the baby to the park? Did the baby have a bowel movement?"

C: Babies aren't supposed to poop in the park.

G: No, but like, I don't think he was saying like, "Did you pee or poop in the park?" He's saying in general, and the park is also there.

C: I think he is! You take dogs to the park in order to let them poop outside.

G: Yeah, I know. But you could maybe also do that to a baby with a diaper.

C: But why would they have to be in the park for it?

G: It's about nature and nurture, [C laughs] is what it's about.

C: I don't think you're supposed to train your children to poop outside.

G: No, this is very well may be the case. Well, unfortunate. I was very confused as to what was going on in this scene, truly out of my mind confused. But, alas!

C: He's also leaving a strip club to show that he's sleazy.

G: Yeah, there's like- they really focus on the name of the strip club, but I don't-

C: We've seen the Honey Wagon before.

G: Have we?

C: I think that was where they thought the siren worked.

G: Oh, that's fun. Or is it?

C: Let me check. Honey Wagon, Supernatural. Yeah, that's the name of the bar in “Sex and Violence.”

G: I can't believe you remember that! Good for you.

C: Thank you.

G: Anyway, as he gets in the car, there's like, a dog's perspective. We hear growling and stuff. It attacks him, but it's invisible, and he screams, cries, moans, throws up blood because he gets a blood splatter. He's dead! RIP. They make the dog invisible at this point.

C: I think we just don't see the angles.

G: No, because we see the guy get mauled by a thing that is supposed to be in front of him, but there's nothing in front of him.

C: Fair. Okay, this is supposed to be his own- Okay, no, this isn't his own dog. This is Lucky.

G: Yeah, this is Lucky killing the landlord, yeah.

C: Slay. Sam and Dean are eating lunch.

G: Can I say? I love the sets that they use this episode. The outdoor sets that they use are fun, and it feels so late Supernatural but also early. This scene, they're outside. They're in a roadside diner that is very much roadside, nothing else is there. It's just this goddamn diner. And I enjoyed that! It's such a fun look. It's such a fun look that is shockingly rare in Supernatural. We don't see it that much, but I enjoyed it tremendously, and I enjoyed the fact that they were on a rooftop. Love a rooftop. They were there. [C: True.] And the thing that they were in, the warehouse they were in, was also pretty fun. I love the sets this episode. Good for them.

C: Good for them. So Dean's on the phone with Bobby trying to figure out a way to get Sam's soul back that doesn't involve [both, dramatically] working for a demon!

G: No, it's so fun. You know, I do appreciate that like this part, it's all like, "I don't want to work for a demon. I don't want to work for a demon." And then later, he says a line that makes you realize that I guess just the fact that they're torturing is also a consideration for him. And I think the line was like, “Maybe we should check before we hand them over to be raped by demons” or something like that. [C: Right.] And I did go, “Aww, Dean cares!” [both laugh] which is like, the bar is on the floor. I did immediately go, “I don't think he cares that much.” I don't know, Grey. Maybe this is not the vibe. But for a second, I did go, “Oh my god! Dean actually cares beyond working for a demon being against his morals.”

C: I mean, he cares that they're torturing if the person they're torturing isn't a monster.

G: Is innocent, yeah.

C: [laughs] Which I think, yeah. Again, bar's-

G: Not even innocent or not innocent. Literally just monster or not monster. [C: Yeah.] If it was an innocent monster, he would still probably DGAF. [C: Yeah.] It is fascinating that they did that one episode with the vampires, Lenore, and they just never- Have they ever explored that kind of mindset ever again?

C: Regarding a vampire who doesn't want to feed on people?

G: Yeah, something similar with regards to other creatures, other monsters.

C: Not really. I guess this episode.

G: The closest they have come to it is, "What if a person is actually the monster?" [laughs] which is like-

C: In “The Benders”?

G: Yeah. That's the other thing that they were like, breaking out of the status quo of monster bad, human good. I don't know. I think here, we're also supposed to think the monster is horrible. This creature, the dog- Does the dog-

C: The dog's name is Lucky, but what is this guy's human name? [both laugh]

G: We're supposed to think Lucky was a creep who was a creep and a weirdo and a crepe and a weirdough, and he does not want to be there.

C: I think we're supposed to feel sympathy for him.

G: Yeah, when he went to the road, are we supposed to think that he was gonna kill himself? [C laughs]

C: I thought, for a second, he was trying to get hit by a car, but I think-

G: I did, too.

C: - I think he was just leaving.

G: “Why did Lucky the dog cross the road? To get to the other side.”

C: Yeah, parentheses Purgatory.

G: To get to Purgatory.

C: Anyway, Dean goes, "I mean, if Crowley thinks we're just gonna-” and Crowley appears right next to him and goes, “Crowley thinks you're just gonna what, Dean?”

G: Love him! And Sam looks up, revealing that he has been hearing this conversation all along. Love it.

C: Of course. Crowley reminds us that he and Bobby kissed, and then [G: Literally.] tries to give them a job, and Dean is incredibly resistant to it all. Crowley's like, “Sam would totally work for me. You'd sell your brother for a dollar right now, if you really needed a soda.” [G laughs]

G: Sam doesn't respond, and we get a shot of Dean kind of like waiting for Sam to go, “No, Crowley!”

C: "Nooo!"

G: "Nooo!" Except he doesn’t. And Dean's like, "Oh, okay.” [laughs]

C: Yeah, Dean says, “I've done some shady stuff in my time, but I am not doing this.”

C: But yeah, you've already worked for a demon in Hell. Crowley goes, “Yeah, you will,” and then he starts burning Sam's hand. [G: Yeah.] And he goes, “You like pain, Sam? You like Hell?” [laughs] The sex must go crazy. [G laughs]

G: I don't think that's what we're supposed to get in this scene, [C laughs] but okay, I shall support you, no matter what.

C: But yeah, he starts yelling at Dean that he can't negotiate because Crowley literally owns his brother. And then, when Dean seems to acquiesce, wow!

G: Wow. Which means agree, but only a little bit.

C: Sure, yeah, basically. I keep forgetting. And then he stops burning Sam's hand and heals it.

G: For a second, I thought what was happening here was he was making Sam experience a fraction of the pain he was experiencing in Hell.

C: Oh, that could be it.

G: And I was like, "I think Crowley's like, a little bit mean! I think he's like, mean for keeping Sam still there. I think it's like, not a very nice thing to do."

C: Yeah, you know, if I had to choose between whether it was nice or not nice, I would probably support the not nice side.

G: I would choose not nice. Crowley, have you changed your mind? Maybe you should change your mind? It's not that nice.

C: Yeah. Do you think maybe he just doesn't know that it's not nice, so that's why he's doing it? Like, maybe if we went up and told him, "That's not very nice." He would be like, “Oh, shit! I didn't realize!”

G: "Oh no! Damn it, I thought it was very nice, after all!" Yeah, maybe we should tell him. [C: Yeah.] Let's call, Crowley. We'll tell you.

C: Crowley, if you listen to Busty Asian Beauties: A Supernatural Commentary Podcast, stop it!

G: Don't do it!

C: Regarding the Sam thing. Keep listening.

G: Literally.

C: So he promises that if they get just one alpha live to him, then they'll get Sam's soul back. Very interesting how he uses Sam's bodily pain as leverage, even though Dean doesn't believe that's Sam right now.

G: Well, he believes, I think, that it's Sam's body, which he says later, like it's Sam's body and Sam's brain, but Sam isn't there. And so when Sam comes back, he's still going to have his body and his brain, I think, is the thought process. It could also just be the instinct of like, “That's my kid brother, and I don't really want him to be going, ‘Ouch! Ouch! Owie!’”

C: Yeah, I mean, Dean beat him half to death two episodes ago.

G: That's true, but you see, he was unconscious halfway through that, [C laughs] so he wasn't going. “Ouch! Ouch! Owie!”

C: I see. I see. Yeah. And also Dean probably thinks it's fine when he does it. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. Horrible.

C: Horrible. Crowley gives them a newspaper showing the cold open with the heart missing, and since it's not a full moon, Crowley thinks that this might be some kind of alpha werewolf that can turn whenevs. He disappears. It's kind of silly to me how against working for Crowley Dean is this episode because he was literally fine working with Crowley to find Pestilence last season. Sam was the one that was resistant, and Dean was like, "Okay, sure, if we gotta." He was only really just a little bit annoyed, and that's about it. But it's because Sam won't be against it this season, so they just give that to Dean.

G: We're supposed to assume, I think, that it's because of what the helping entails, which is torture, but again, it's such a nebulous fucking thing that they do with torture in Supernatural, and by nebulous, I do mean mind-boggling. [C: Yeah.] And so there's no follow-through in that aspect. No follow-through. So I don't know. Another thing is that it's never brought up, like Ruby. It's never brought up. [C: Yeah!] Which is such a weird thing. Last episode, we complained that it wasn't brought up. It's still not brought up here, and it's just such an odd choice to make to be like, "Oh, I remember, Dean. I have my memories. I remember Madison! [C laughs] And that's the only thing I remember from my past that is related to the events of this episode." Like, okay. Well, do you remember the demon that tricked you that you helped and could be the reason why you shouldn't help this one or something? Don't know.

C: I don't know.

G: Like at some point, Crowley goes, "I'm holding you hostage by withholding a thing that you want." That's also what Ruby did, but included an emotional aspect to it. Like, okay.

C: Okay.

G: Now, we're in the car. Sam is reading the newspaper. He's saying what they should be doing and what they should be doing. Dean is like, "Agh. I can't believe this! I'm also doing what you're doing, but I feel horrible! [C laughs] And you're feeling normo! How dare you be normo?"

C: He goes, "This is what you're gonna do?" And Sam says, "What am I doing?" And Dean says, "Crowley." So true! #Cram.

G: #Cram. And Sam says, "Oh, I just need to work the case because he got us by the short and curlies," [C: #Cram!] which is a horrible, horrible visual, [C laughs] but good for them. "What else are we supposed to do?" That's what Sam says. And Dean says, "Well, we're supposed to do it, but we need to feel bad about it!" [laughs] I cannot get over this! Ever since I noted that the thing about Supernatural is they want to do things, but they want to feel bad about them, about doing the bad things, and that's what makes it fine, it's impossible to unsee that that is the great big philosophy of the show. But yeah. And Sam says, "Look, I understand this is such a weird thing that's going on, but I still have- It's still me. Still same head, still the same memories." He says, "I still like the same music. I still think about Suzie Heizer."

C: What music, Sam?

G: What music, Sam? An important question.

C: Yeah, I think Word of God, he likes Fall Out Boy, but has he really shown himself to have that many musical tastes in the show besides that one band that he liked that Lucifer possessed?

G: And then that's much, much, much later.

C: That's much, much, much later?

G: Yeah. And he was also allegedly- Wasn't he listening to music that was like, bad, allegedly? The show treated it like it was bad music. Hair music. Or hair rock

C: Yeah. When Dean came back from the dead and he checked the iPod, was that when that came up?

G: Yeah. And Sam was like, "I'm listening to a podcast about blah blah blah blah blah blah." And then Dean pulled out the earphones, and it's hair metal or something.

C: Yeah, I think that's later.

G: Yeah, that is later. We get no aspect- it does make me a little bit sad that this show, the music of it is John and then Dean's music. That makes me sad. [C: Yeah.] What about Mary? What about Sam?

C: I guess Mary likes "Hey Jude."

G: Maybe Sam is woman-coded. [both laugh]

C: Oh my god!

G: People will say anything. No, but Mary does love "Hey Jude." She likes the Beatles. That's something we know of her.

C: Mary should watch "Takin' Over the Asylum."

G: I know! Mary, go watch it! [C laughs] Sam says that he still thinks about Suzie Heizer, who is from biology class, so either a student or a teacher.

C: I think they would say Ms. Heizer if it was a teacher.

G: But Dean says, "Like, biology class Suzie Heizer?"

C: No, yeah, it's like, why does Dean know about this girl?

G: Yeah, they're in different grades, so.

C: I guess maybe Sam confided in him about his crush or something.

G: Yeah, maybe. If so, that's sweet that Dean remembers.

C: Yeah. But part of the vibe is like, "Yeah, I also thought this girl in your class was hot," so.

G: Yeah, which is also weird. So whatever. That's why I'm assuming it's a teacher.

C: Weren't they at the same school campus in- I forgot the name of the episode.

G: Yeah, they were. They always were in the same pretty much school.

C: That can't always be true, though, because they're four years apart.

G: Are high schools and grade schools just fundamentally different places?

C: I guess the school they were at was like, maybe a combo middle school/high school. But yeah, I feel like a lot of middle schools are their own thing, and there's only three grades in there.

G: What are the three middle school grades?

C: 6th, 7th, 8th.

G: Oh. Why is it called middle school?

C: Because it's in the middle between 1st to 5th grade and 9th to 12th grade.

G: No, okay. Well, our definition is one to six is grade school, and then seven to ten is high school. [C: Interesting.] And then eleven and twelve is senior high school. Stupid fucking thing. [C laughs] Let's kill the Philippine government. Who said that? [C: I don't know.] Me, I said it.

Sam says, "Look, I know you don't trust me, but you gotta, Dean!" [both laugh] He doesn't say it like that, but he says that "I'm going to prove to you that I'm still your brother."

C: So they go to the dock, and there's a detective there, and he's Asian!

G: Asian! He's Asian. Look at this Asian man. Good for him.

C: Good for him. And they go up to him, and Sam immediately recreates the authority check fail in the church in Disco Elysium where Harry Du Bois calls Kim Kitsuragi, an Asian detective, a monkeyfucker. [laughs] 'Cause Sam calls him a mouth-breathing dick monkey. Basically the same thing.

G: That's crazy. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, it's supposed to be a horrible racial slur in Disco Elysium, [G laughs] and it doesn't not completely come across as racist here, I would say.

G: The detective just DGAF and just gives them info.

C: Yeah, he literally does not care. He just delivers the information to them. Yeah, so there was a dock worker who was killed, chest ripped open, heart missing, like the landlord before. And Sam asks about enemies, "And the detective says, 'Yeah, plenty. But you do realize these were animal attacks?'" And Dean goes, "There are no animals here in Buffalo, New York. What the fuck are you talking about? You think there's animals in here? There's an ocean nearby. You think that there could possibly be an animal in a place where there's an ocean nearby. Just any animal? You fucking idiot!" [laughs] And then it cuts to the next scene.

G: It could literally be a rabid dog. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] "Do you think there's a wolf?" What if there's a big fucking dog?

C: Yeah. Stupid as fuck. So in the motel, Dean's sleeping on a bed, face-down, but there's no Ackle's ass equation shot of it.

G: Yeah, but I wish there was. [laughs]

C: Huh. Five people at that party wish there was.

G: I think they were not Supernatural watchers. I think they were seeing Supernatural on Tumblr. It was that kind of party. People here were on Tumblr. [C: I see.] I feel like they were just seeing Supernatural on Tumblr or something. They were seeing gifsets of the Ackles ass equatio and not engaging with the material as well as I did. [C laughs] [C: I see.] And that's the only reason why they can objectify Dean Winchester in this way. If they watch it, they would be objectifying Castiel, and so I know that they didn't.

C: So true. So Sam's not slept, and has been doing research all night, which Dean thinks is creepy, but Sam’s like, “Not like I can help it!” The connection between the victims is something. They don't say yet, but they go to a house about it.

G: The house that they go to, Sam literally takes out- Is it a tranquilizer gun, or is it silver bullets?

C: I think it's just a regular gun with silver bullets.

G: I thought they were supposed to catch this guy or something.

C: Yeah, they are supposed to catch this guy, but I guess this is like, in case things go awry.

So they knock, and there's a woman, Mandy, and her little son Adrian. They- Sam and Dean say that they're here to question Cal Garrigan because they're misogynists, and I feel like they should have assumed that Mandy had just as much reason to kill those people as he did, which they do, but only after ruling out Cal. Which doesn't make any sense to me. The last main werewolf they dealt with was a woman. [G: Yeah.] They have no reason to view werewolves as more necessarily male.

So they go in. There's a dog, a German shepherd named Lucky, who's there. So Cal is Mandy's boyfriend, and he's sleeping because he was out all night drinking.

G: Oh, we kept on calling this guy the husband earlier.

C: Did I?

G: I did.

C: Is the issue that you didn't remember his name?

G: No, I kept on calling him "the husband."

C: Oh, and he's a boyfriend. No, you're right. I also called him a husband. Wait. So that's so crazy. [laughing] Is it like, "He's not really family, because they're not bound in sacred wedlock, so that's why it was fine for Lucky to kill him"?

G: Can I say?

C: What?

G: I would have the same belief. [laughs]

C: No, what? They live together! That's his kid.

G: You can live together. You can have a kid.

C: Well, I think they view each other as family.

G: [laughing] It's the sanctity of marriage [C screams] that makes a family.

C: No! Oh my god! We don't know if that's his kid, I guess, but I think the fact that they live together indicates, probably, that she views him as family.

G: You can literally live- You know what? Here's my take. If you're some fuckall guy, if you're not this kid's dad, and you live together, you're family. If you are this kid's dad, you don't have to be family to live together.

C: Yeah, that's fair, 'cause it wasn't exactly by choice.

G: So if it's the biological dad, yeah.

C: All right. Fine. Fine enough.

G: And if you live together, and you're dating, and you have a kid, and you're not married, what are you doing? What are you doing? That's my hot take.

C: Do you genuinely believe this?

G: [laughing] Yes, yes, I do. [C: Okay.] You don't have to think this is the correct belief. I also think maybe it's a little bit wrong, but like, not enough to change my mind.

C: Yeah. Alright.

G: Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, the only reason why you would do that is if you're already planning to leave each other, in which case, yeah. Hell yeah. But that is not family.

C: [laughing] You're really saying sentences. [G laughs] Alright, well, I don't agree with any of that. Moving on...

G: How dare you? I stood by your side earlier when you were saying things that I completely forgot about!

C: Wait! What things?

G: I don't know, but I said earlier that I will stand by you, no [burps] matter what. And I literally burped in the middle of saying that. I'm so sorry.

C: It's cool. Wait, earlier as in earlier in this episode?

G: Yeah, I said, "Crystal, I'll support you no matter what."

C: [laughing] Why do I feel like that didn't happen?

G: I am sure it did, and when I record I will replay it right here, right now. Replay.

[beep]

C: He goes, "You like pain, Sam? You like Hell?" The sex must go crazy. [G laughs]

G: I don't think that's what we're supposed to get in this scene, [C laughing] but okay, I shall support you, no matter what.

[beep]

C: What if you just record yourself saying that, and you're like, "This is part of the edit. Don't think about it too much, Crystal."

G: No, yeah? No, I'm so sorry to people who may be affected by my harsh words.

C: Yeah. [laughs] Well, anyway. [G laughs] So yeah, Cal was out late. He was clearly very drunk. He slept in those clothes. He blacked out, probably, so these are all suspicious things. And they reveal that the reason that they're suspicious of him is that the two people who were killed were his brother and his landlord. Regarding his brother, the last time he visited, Cal called the cops on him because he was violent towards Mandy. And for the landlord, Cal and Mandy are behind on rent payments, and they were going to be evicted. Both Sam and Dean are just glaring this guy down, and he's just like, "I'm confused." So Sam and Dean are like, "Okay, fine. Let's go." They're pretty sure it's him, and Sam thinks that they should just kidnap him and deliver him to Crowley now. But yeah, Grey, as you mentioned, Dean says that they have to make sure before they hand him over to be tortured.

G: So they both go to watch Cal, and they talk about how he is in this place now. They followed him through several locations, and he's still drinking a lot because he went to like, a bar, a strip club, a chili dog joint- so important [C laughs]- had seven or eight nightcaps, and now is having Scotch and is just completely fine, like upstanding, no anything.

C: Did Lucky kill him because all the drinking was making them behind on rent?

G: You really think so?

C: You already got the landlord.

G: Yeah! You can just not pay the rent anymore. The land is officially yours.

C: [laughs] Yeah, that's how it works. There's no replacement.

G: Yeah, no, it's officially yours.

C: Yeah, exactly. The landlord's will left that apartment to them.

G: Exactly. But what happens is Sam and Dean are like, "Oh, nothing's gonna happen. Let's just wait it out. I'm sure he will attack in a couple hours or something." So they head out, and as Cal, later in the morning, heads out, we see that Lucky is there as he's trying to enter the car. And he asks Lucky, "What the hell are you doing here?" And then Lucky kills that guy! [laughs] [C: Yup.] Kills that fucking guy. And as Cal is on the floor, dead, we see, we pan up to see a guy. It's just a dude, and he's naked, I'm pretty sure, at this point. [C: Yes.] And he has blood all over his body from killing this guy.

C: Yeah. The nakedness is definitely a choice. It is to just make him seem [both] creepier or whatever. They could choose to have him shift with clothes on or whatever.

G: It's also just a visual cue that there's a dog now. I would say it does work later in the-

C: Yeah, 'cause the clothes left on the ground indicate [G: Yeah.] that somebody shifted.

G: Yeah. And so during the fight scene, it's like, "Ooh, and they have to look out for a dog now!" The next scene is this guy, Lucky the guy, [both laugh] standing over the bed of Mandy, and he's just looking.

C: He's still naked.

G: Yeah, naked, bloodied, looking looking looking. And then he transforms into a dog and starts licking Mandy and then sleeps by her.

C: She wakes up, and Lucky is being very physically affectionate. She notices Cal isn't there but thinks that's typical. And she calls Lucky "the only decent boyfriend she has ever had."

G: Is the reason why they made her a girlfriend and not a wife because they want it so that she's not called later? [C: Not called?] They won't call her because she's not the wife, she's a girlfriend. Is that true?

C: I don't think so.

G: 'Cause I can't think of a reason- When the episode was happening, I can't think of a reason why she hasn't been called. So is that the show trying to justify it by being like, "She wasn't called because she was a girlfriend, not a wife."

C: Well, did they know who this guy was at the- When the police found his body and took him away, did they find ID on him? Did they know who he was, or did Sam and Dean just contact her because they recognized the body?

G: Sam and Dean went there. Do you think they recognized the body, and that's how they knew. But they said, "Nobody called you?" Sam and Dean asked, "Nobody called you?"

C: Well, yes, probably they thought that the cops would have figured out is- How would they know that she was- You mean like, 'cause there's no records of their relationship in any public system, so the cops wouldn't know to call her about it?

G: Yeah.

C: That could be it. But your phone numbers aren't on a marriage certificate.

G: Yeah, but you can go, "Oh, there's a person. Let's track down the address." [C: Yeah.] Let's go to the address and go, "Hey, your husband's dead."

C: So anyway, Mandy goes into the shower, and we see Lucky go stand in the doorway, and he's like, panting and staring at her as she undresses and gets in.

G: No, yeah. No, yeah. [laughs]

C: Yeah. Certainly a scene. And okay, being like, "I care about-"

G: [laughing] Why are they doing this to this beloved dog actor? So sorry, dog actor! [C laughs]

C: No, the dog's really cute. Love that dog. Good job playing a pervert. [G laughs] This is the whole thing- No, say your thing first.

G: No, no, no, I was just gonna say I love the word "pervert."

C: Yeah, it's got a great sound to it.

G: It does have a great sound to it, like annui. Or ennui? That's how to pronounce it. Words with great sounds: ennui, [both] pervert, ever- [laughs]

C: I wonder how far away those are on the Divergent Association Task.

C: Yeah, guess we'll never know.

C: So this is the thing I said earlier about how like it's supposed to be like, "This guy is kind of a hero who just loves this family so much, and it was cool of him to kill other people to protect them." But like, and that can exist in- It can happen at the same time as him being attracted to this woman, but like, [G: Yeah.] I feel like they just don't really try to combine those things in any way that makes sense. If they wanted to do a "And he was in love with this woman!" and we're supposed to feel sympathy about that like, okay, go ahead. Sure. I believe this story.

G: And I do think there is also a situation where he's in love with this woman and the guy is a decent father and a decent boyfriend and all that crap.

C: Right. So you need multiple things to be happening for all the components of the story to work, and yeah, they're not being put in here. Are we just supposed to think that the fact that he drinks a lot and doesn't come home means he deserves to die? [both laugh]

G: Well, much to say about John Winchester, then.

C: For real. And also like, he did murder people who [G: No, yeah, exactly.] weren't the best people, but like, [laughs] Sam and Dean would not be like, "It's okay to kill those people" under most circumstances, so [G: Yeah.] what's up with that?

G: They went to her place, and when they realize that they don't- that she doesn't know what's going on- Before they went in, Sam asks Dean if he can do it, and by "it," he means, [laughs] put Mandy in the trunk and shove her up to Crowley, well, one, they didn't do that with Lucky. They didn't end up doing that with Lucky because I think it's very clear that it's not the alpha, so they didn't.

G: Yeah, I don't know why they thought Mandy was the alpha. Aren't the alphas that we've seen before- they didn't really have an established civilian life, right? [G: Yeah.] They're just kinda hanging around being creepy in places. But I guess just the idea of a werewolf being able to shift every day just means to them that this is the alpha, even though Sam already encountered regular degular werewolves that were shifting on the half moon? Kind of confusing.

G: Yeah. Mandy's kid is sick, and she's like, you know, taking care of him as he's like lying on the couch, sick. And Lucky comes in and gives a toy, and then the toy breaks, and they're like, "Wow! Lucky is such a good boy! Lucky knows that you're sick, and he wants you to feel better!" blah blah blah blah blah blah, which is also what we say to the kid when the cats come to her when she's sick.

C: Aw.

G: It's true, but this dog is a creep. [laughs]

C: So the thing about Lucky holding onto the toy and not letting go of it until the leg breaks off when Mandy tries to take it out of his mouth-

G: Is that supposed to be a metaphor?

C: What I thought was- I thought we were supposed to- because of all the standing over her naked stuff, I thought we were supposed to think that he was gonna come for the kid next, and like, [G: Noo.] this is just a sign of like resentment that he felt. [G laughs] I think we're supposed to think that he's gonna come for the kid next, but then later, they talk to him, and he's nice!

G: He's niceys to the kid!

C: Yeah. So like, why'd he break the toy, then?

G: It was just an accident.

C: If he wasn't gonna murder that child, why didn't he let go of the toy in the mouth? [both laugh] Those are the same thing!

G: Well, one, it was an accident. Two, I think it's supposed to establish that he has trouble letting go. [both laugh] And what if he does? What if he does have trouble letting go, Crystal? Have you considered that?

C: Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry.

G: As they go head out, that's when Sam and Dean come in. Mandy is walking the dog, leaves her kid by himself, all alone.

C: Yes.

G: I would have called someone to walk the dog, personally.

C: Well, walking the dog can be a really fast thing.

G: Yeah, but a child alone in the house. What if a stranger comes in? What if a stranger knocks-

C: There's locks.

G: - and the kid answers the door?

C: Tell the kid not to answer the door.

G: Yeah, but what if the guy goes, "Hey, your mom told me that you can answer the door for me, and-"

C: Wait, so do you think that no child who's conscious should ever be alone in the house?

G: A little bit, yeah! [laughs]

C: [laughing] You're revealing so many things today.

G: What if you accidentally left the gas open? The kid's just gonna die because the kid doesn't know what gas smells like.

C: And if you stayed in there, [laughs] then both of you would die.

G: No, but you would know, because you would know. You would connect the dots 'cause you're an adult.

C: Well, I think you could just be a person who doesn't leave the gas open. [laughs]

G: Yeah, but what if? Etc.

C: I think you can just not leave the gas open.

G: What if the kid goes, "Oh, I'm thirsty. I need water." And then they go and get water, and then they open the water, and they leave it open, and the house floods.

C: They probably won't do that. I think that if you know your kid-

G: The kid is sick! The kid is sick. You don't know what the kid is gonna do. The kid is sick.

C: Does being sick make children that stupid?

G: Yes! Yes! Not stupid, but it makes you forgetful, it makes you not consider things that you would otherwise consider. And when you're a child, I feel like that is double.

C: How old is this-

G: What if the child trips over while getting water, and now just has a bloody knee and a bloody head?

C: That can happen if you're in the bathroom in the house with the kid, too.

G: Yeah! [laughing] And like, you shouldn't! [C laughing]

C: Okay, you're just doing a bit at this point? We should probably move on.

G: No no no. The bathroom, I think, is fine, because that's quick. I think the ones that you shouldn't leave a kid at at all is when they're eating and when they're sick.

C: In case they choke?

G: I believe that. Because what if they choke? And what if they trip over and die?

C: Okay, well, what if you go to the bathroom while they're sick? Is that allowed?

G: No. I think if they're just solidly in bed at that point, you can.

C: Wait. [laughing] You're not allowed to go to the bathroom if your kid is sick and still awake?

G: Children are fucking weird, and children will do things when they're sick and start sleepwalking and shit.

C: Yeah, and sometimes you just have to let that happen! You tell them like, "Here are the guidelines to keep yourself safe."

G: Sometimes, a kid will fall down the stairs.

C: Yeah?

G: Yeah! Just let the kid fall down the stairs?

C: And they'll do that whether or not you're there!

G: Yeah, but if you're there, you can go, "Okay, let's go back. Let's not fall down the fucking stairs."

C: Yeah. And if you're out walking the dog for like five minutes, when you get back, you can say that.

G: [laughing] After they've fallen down the stairs and hit their head!

C: Yeah, that's unfortunate.

G: Well, some things a kid can experience, and some things after you get hit by a car, you're dead. So, you know.

C: Yes, I agree that some things will kill a child, and those things can happen whether or not you're there. [G laughs]

G: But they're less likely to happen if you're there!

C: Maybe. But I think there's an extent of caution that-

G: How old do you think this kid is?

C: I don't know. Like, five?

G: Do not leave a five-year-old sick by himself! If it's a ten-year-old, it's fine.

C: You send kids to school, and they're not always supervised there.

G: They are always supervised in school! Have you been in school?

C: They can run off somewhere.

G: They can, and there's guards in the school.

C: There's guards in the school?

G: There's security in the school, yeah. There's a guy guarding the gate-

C: There were not guards-

G: There's a guy guarding the gate.

C: There weren't guards at my school.

G: And so when a kid is running off into the road to get hit by a car, the guard can go, "No!"

C: There were not guards. I think there were gates, but I don't think they were fully locked.

G: They were gates and people who were guarding them. They're not locked, obviously. What if there's an emergency and you need to go out fast?

C: Then they can unlock them. I think we just had a different security and infrastructure in our schools.

G: Yeah, that is probably true. I went to school with guards.

C: I don't recall guards.

G: And I think that's true for every school I see, public or private, has had guards.

C: Yeah, I believe that. I don't recall guards at my schoo.

G: What if a kid goes out into the road? What if a kid goes out, and then it's taken by someone? Just someone?

C: Then that would be bad. You tell the kid, "Don't go out," and you try to make sure you have a good head count.

G: [laughs] Sure, yeah. If a fucking kidnapper gets your child, that's it. It's over.

C: Well, yeah. You could pay the ransom?

G: I am enamored by this confrontation. "You should leave a child when the child is sick" [laughs] is- I could not believe this. You're gonna die-

C: For a five-minute dog walk? Yes! Who cares?

G: I don't think it's a five-minute dog walk! She's outside, talking to people!

C: Yeah, so? You can talk to people when you're walking your dog outside for five minutes?

G: She's standing in the corner of the road!

C: Right, next to the house, which I guess is closer to what you want from her.

G: [laughs] Sure, yeah. I still cannot believe she walked that dog. Why can't she call someone and be like, "Hey."

C: She was so selfish for showering for five minutes earlier, too?

G: I don't think it's selfish. I think it's stupid! Which are different things.

C: [laughing] You're not allowed to shower when there's a child in the house?

G: No, child in the house is fine. If the kid can take care of itself, it's fine, but it's just-

C: Okay, until the child is ten, you can't shower unless they're asleep?

G: Sick! Sick! The child is sick!

C: Who cares? [laughing]

G: Oh my god! The child is- What if the child is lying down and then vomits and then chokes in their own vomit?

C: Well, you lay them on their side before you go to shower? [G laughing]

G: God! What if they turn? What if they turn in their sleep?

C: That's unfortunate.

G: Oh, god! [laughing] Are you seriously believe this, or are you messing with me at this point?

C: I do genuinely, strongly believe everything I've just said.

G: Well, I think kids feel sad when you leave them when they're sick, which I do often feel, and I did often feel as a kid.

C: I think you could say, "I'm going to walk the dog for a few minutes, or else it's gonna poop inside the house. You understand this. You have my phone number."

G: I don't understand why you can't call your neighbor.

C: To walk the dog?

G: Yeah!

C: I mean, you could, but your neighbor would say, "You're literally crazy for doing this." [laughs]

G: Well, that's because the Americans are individualists. [laughs]

C: I think that- Yeah, I think that an American neighbor might be less likely to. But I don't think that individualism has that much to do with the level of concern you're supposed to feel about leaving your sick kid in the house for five minutes.

G: A think a kid who is sick- Kids who are sick are not like adults who are sick.

C: I know.

G: Yeah! And you shouldn't leave them!

C: Many things are not like adults who are sick. [laughs]

G: No, what I'm saying is, there is a level of danger associated with a kid being sick.

C: Okay, if you have a dog, you leave the dog alone at home.

G: A kid is more likely to start fucking seizuring when they have a fever, for example.

C: Mm-hm. Yeah. And that's unfortunate.

G: Oh my god! And it's ideal, during those situations, you're there so you know, and you see. What if the seizure is done when-

C: I think it's ideal. I don't think it's necessary.

G: Well, I'm not gonna concede on this point, and neither will you.

C: Okay, I also won't, so we can move on, as I suggested. So-

G: What do I do with all this? Do I keep it in the edit, or do I-?

C: I think you can cut it. I mean, if you feel like it's a debate where you do want other people's input on it because of how strongly both of us feel in different ways, [G: Okay.] you can keep some of it.

G: Okay. If you are listening to this episode and you just heard that discussion, kindly send in an ask, a comment, a response, a DM, an email or whatever saying what you would do in this situation and if you think me or Crystal is right, and also how many kids you have raised. Thank you!

C: Thank you!

G: But anyway, they go back in, and she's talking to these guys. And Sam and Dean are like, "We need to take you," and she goes, "I can't, because my kid is sick." [laughs]

C: Yeah.

G: [laughing] And they tell her to go call a neighbor, and she's like, "I can't believe you're doing this to me." I thought for a second she was gonna go, when she was listing things, I thought she was gonna go, "Oh, I can't because my kid is sick and my boyfriend just died!" [C laughs] but she didn't. Her kid literally is just sick. And they tell her that, you know, she's in the vortex of all of this that are related to her. Also, earlier, [laughs] before she walks the dog, the dog doesn't want to go on a walk. [laughs] The dog is intently watching the news, which I did think was fun, and she found a little bit of blood on the dog, and that is wonderful. Love a dog that watches TV, just like that one dog who was watching us on the television-

C: Yeah, shout out.

G: - by that one asker from a long, long, long time ago. If you're still listening, shout out to the dog, and to you. Sam and Dean, they come in, and they ask her, "Oh, so your kid is sick. Were you with the kid all night?" And she goes, "Yeah, I was just gone. I had half an hour of sleep, maybe." So she watched over her kid the entire night. And it's so fascinating to me that she says this, and Dean goes, "Can we talk to your kid?" obviously leading to somewhere, and Sam was like, "What would that accomplish, Dean? How dare you even suggest we waste our time when it's so obvious where it's going?" So maybe Sam isn't a better hunter. Maybe he's actually a worse hunter.

C: Well, no, I think what Sam thinks is, he knows why Dean is asking, but she had the half hour of sleep, and that's enough for her to have gone out and killed Cal.

G: You think so. Or to have transformed even without her knowledge.

C: Yeah, 'cause, later, he says, "She still had time to wolf out, Dean." Like, "The last werewolf was in bed, with me, and she wolfed out." [both laugh]

G: No, yeah, I think they also just never really brought up the fact that Madison didn't know and that that's an important part of that episode. That she didn't know she was a werewolf. Here-

C: I think they know. Because they they think that Cal blacked out and did all the killings, so I think they are aware of it.

G: So you think it's implied, that that's the implication.

C: Yeah.

G: Okay, yeah. And also, here, I suppose they were like, "She slept for thirty minutes. Then that means-"

C: Yeah.

G: Okay. I mean, from what it looks like, the dog also went out when she was sleeping, which makes sense because if the dog was missing while she was awake, that would be weird. [C: Yeah.] So it was the same thirty minutes that he slept in, so she's still a suspect. [C: Yeah.] Sam says that her alibi is a lie. Yeah, he brings up Madison, and Dean goes, "Don't make this personal." [C laughs] So true.

They split their tasks so that Dean is gonna go out and look at the crime scene some more, and Sam's gonna stay with Amanda. And my immediate response was like, "Whoa, don't do that," and so is Dean's. But Sam insists, "Dean, I can do my job, and you can just trust me on this one." And it's like, okay.

C: [laughs] I would not have trusted Sam on that one. Well, wow.

G: Well, first of all, I also would have not, so. But Dean did acquiesce.

C: He did. I just think it's so wild that in the beginning of Season 5, he wouldn't split up from Sam because he was like, "You're gonna go off and drink demon blood. I don't trust you." But like, now he's putting this woman's life at risk with soulless Sam, and he's willing to trust him on this? I don't know I wouldn't have weighted those in the way that Dean did in levels of trust.

G: Yeah. It's because it's Sam doing something to affect himself, which Dean frowns upon more than he would Sam doing something bad to other people. [C: Yeah.] And here, it's not like Sam can get worse. [laughs] He's gonna continue being soulless, no matter what.

C: Sure. But later, Dean does say that Sam's soul is less important than getting a 150 people not turned into creatures, so like.

G: Yeah, but I think that's a different computation, that one.

C: Yeah, one person versus 150.

C: So Sam's watching the house. Yeah, he sees Lucky turn into a naked man.

G: Lucky the guy, yeah. And it's just this tense scene where Sam's trying to hide in the shadows with his gun, trying to get a clear shot, while Lucky, he gets dressed. He goes outside. He sniffs around because he can sense that there's maybe somebody around. He talks to a guy who's played by the Gunner Lawless guy.

G: Is that true?

C: Yeah.

G: So fun.

C: You recognized him, right? You were like, "He looks familiar."

G: No, absolutely not.

C: Really? I was like, "I have seen this man. I know who this is, but I don't know who it is." So then I looked it up, and yeah, it's Gunner Lawless guy. But yeah, so he's talking with him. It seems like a tense conversation. They seem to have come to some agreement. And yeah, Sam's still trying to shoot. He fails to before Lucky realizes for sure that he's there and takes off running. It's fun. We see him jump over a fence, and Sam jumps over a fence, etc. until Lucky runs into the street and gets hit by a car! So true. And then the people inside the car freak out and take him into the car to take him to a vet. And Sam starts yelling like, "Hey, wait! That's my dog!" He just has a predilection for dogs who are hit by cars because of him.

G: No, for real. Well, this is his first. The second dog is in Season 8, so it hasn't happened yet. He will acquire, after this one, is the correct answer.

C: You're right. You're right. Sorry for the incorrect tense. In the motel room, Dean's looking at the phone, thinking about calling Lisa but not doing it in order to establish Lucky as somewhat of a mirror for Dean.

G: [laughing] No!

C: This guy? Like, they couldn't offer any empathy to Aaron Birch, [laughing] but this guy is a mirror to Dean, apparently. [G: No! I didn't-] Because he loves a family with a now-single mom and child. Son, specifically.

G: [screams] I did not connect that.dot at all. I was like, "There's a phone out. Of course he's going to try to contact Lisa and then not do it." God, that's hilarious.

C: 'Cause later, he's like, "I understand you. You love that family." during the interrogation.

G: [screams] No! No! You're right! You're right! Well, that is crazy.

C: They're trying to do a mirror thing.

G: "Dog Dean Afternoon" rights, I think!

C: For realsies.

G: Oh, that's so fun.

C: Yeah. But he decides not to call Lisa, and Sam calls him and explains who the creature is. I guess they also eat hearts in Supernatural, which is why they were mistaken for werewolves, and also, silver will also affect them, and they will infect you and turn you with a single bite. How do werewolves turn people?

G: I think also with a bite. 'Cause that's what Sam found on- what's her name? Madison. [C: Yeah.] He found a bite on her, right? But just a human, just a regular guy bite. [C: Uh-huh.] I suppose it could also be just a regular guy bite for this one in the Supernatural world.

C: Maybe. 'Cause he says, "They infect you with a single bite. Otherwise, they're basically a werewolf cousin," implying that werewolves don't. So I'm confused.

G: Wait, let's see. Let's look at that lline.

C: I'll look at the werewolf Supernatural Wikipedia page.

G: Because I think the "anywhere, anytime" is the difference in the lore. So I don't understand, too-

C: Yeah, so why isn't the "otherwise" sentence right after that one?

G: Yeah, there's a clause that is misplaced here, Sam Winchester.

C: Yeah, it's just a bite.

G: I love how this episode kind of shows them being a little bit bad at their job, too. Sam didn't catch this guy and Dean couldn't do that fucking shot. Love that scene, by the way.

C: When he's trying to yank the gun out of the crack in the glass or-? No no no, I liked that scene. You're talking about how he couldn't make it from the roof.

G: Yeah, he couldn't snipe that fucking guy.

C: No, I don't get it. Did he only have one bullet?

G: No no no, it's just they will scatter immediately after.

C: Yeah, fair enough.

G: "We get only one shot, Sam. One shot." The John F. Kennedy shooter shot like, two times. [laughs]

C: Slay.

G: And the second one is the one that hit!

C: Anyway, Sam says that he didn't get him, but he knows that he's at the animal hospital.

G: And they go, and like, [both laugh] it's like a pound, but it's like the confinement room of an animal hospital. So these dogs are like, confined, basically. [laughs] And they go there, and the dog's just there in a cage. Honestly, this is a really good setup for a case where the case is that the dog is a guy. [both laugh] Like, do you know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] It's a pretty good turn of events. In "Dog Dean Afternoon," the dogs are dogs, and Dean turns into a dog who can understand dog speak. Well, he doesn't turn into a dog. He turns into a guy who can understand dog speak, so when they go to the animal shelter, I think that one was actually a pound, 'cause he lets the dogs go afterwards. [both laugh] He lets the dogs out, and it was him. Literally unrelated to all this. I just wanted to bring up "Dog Dean Afternoon."

C: Lovely.

G: Dean crouches down, eye-level to the dog, and shows him the bullet case and goes, "This is all silver, just so you know that we warned you." And then he goes, "Yeah, we're gonna go out with us, okay?" And he holds up a chain, and then they do.

C: Well, he goes, "We could do this the easy way," showing him clothes, "or the hard way," showing him the chain.

G: Ohh! Is that what happens? Okay.

C: Yeah, and Sam laughs! Dean looks at him-

G: Sam, honestly, was a little bit mean this episode! I know he was gonna put that woman in a trunk and everything, [C laughs] but like, this was a little bit mean! Sam's being mean.

C: But it wasn't mean of Dean to say it? [laughs]

G: No, no, no, the part later where he keeps on throwing a ball to get the guy to catch it.

C: [laughing] Oh, yeah, that was mean.

G: That one was mean. This one, they're both equally mean because they are both making jokes about it. And honestly, I don't think it's mean. I think Dean saying it was a factual. He was trying to intimidate, and so I understand. [C: Yeah.] And then Sam just laughed a little bit because it is a bit funny.

C: Yeah. He goes, "What? Soul or not, that's funny." Good for him.

G: What happens is Lucky is now tied up as a dude in a room in a motel, and then they're interviewing him, and then they go like, "Oh, this is silver, and we can scratch you with silver before you start talking" or something. And Sam is asking questions like, "I mean, why did you shack up with a family? Is it like a kink thing?"

C: So real.

G: And "Do you like playing with your food? Roll over, Lucky. Speak." And the framing that they use, it's just his face. Oh my god, hi, Phil! It's just Sam's face in a way that I did enjoy. I enjoyed that he was mean and off-putting, and mean in a mean-spirited way. He wasn't mean for intimidation tactics, it seems like! [C: Right.] Like, he was just mean! And I support that!

G: So what this guy says is that- what Dean says is that this family, you love them. You care about them because you take care of every threat that comes near them, including the guy in the family. [C laughs] And he says, "What we want to know is, who is that guy that you were talking to?" And Lucky is cagey, but Dean says that like, "What's gonna end up happening is the girl and the kid are gonna be put in danger." And he does say "the girl."

C: Yeah, which is weird.

G: It is off-putting because obviously, this is a grown woman. But like obviously, the wording of "the girl" is like, narratively significant. Or not narratively significant, but that's a cliche term, right? Like, "save the girl," "get the girl."

C: Yeah. I mean, doesn't he also refer Lisa as "a girl" or "his girl" at points?

G: Yeah, I suppose. But like, I think because you can call someone "the woman." No, "the girl" is the- I don't know. I just think putting this here, he could have very easily said that "You're gonna put that woman and her kid in danger" or "that woman and the little boy in danger," and that would make complete, perfect sense. But the reason for putting "the girl" here is to claim that stereotype or claim that cliche. I'm pretty sure it's called a cliche, when you use that, it's called a cliche, right? I think.

C: Yeah, maybe. I believe it.

G: You're using the cliche term for it. So it's supposed to call into your consciousness the idea of saving the girl or getting the girl, which just makes it a little bit more uncomfortable [laughs] than it already is, [C: Agreed] the implication of it, rather than just saying that "you're gonna save the woman" or something.

C: Yeah, also, I was wrong. Bobby calls Lisa and Ben "a woman and a kid," so they do use "woman" there. So yeah, this is especially pointed, the fact that they're using "girl."

G: Yeah. And Dean says that their angle is helping those two people and that's why, you know, he has to cooperate with them. And basically, what is the information revealed to us is that there's a guy, but it's not just him. There's so many of them. I think he says five, right? They have their five in a pack.

C: He says there's 30.

G: Oh, yeah, it's 30 to 150, is what he said. But are they 30 in a pack? I thought there was five of them, and then thirty total or something. But his point is like there's more of them than what he even knows of, and he doesn't really know the boss that they have, just that they have one, and that guy will speak to them to do something when it's time to do something. Their plan is to turn 30 to 150 in one night by biting every person in a family.

C: Yeah, also, specifically, he was recruited because he was formerly homeless, and they just were like, "If we bite you, then you'll be strong and fast, and I guess can find a place to stay." [G: Yeah.] And I do think that this is interesting in terms of the recruitment tactics that we've been seeing so far this season have been vampires and then this. [G: Yeah.] And yeah, this whole I don't know preying on people-

G: - who are vulnerable of some kind.

C: - who are at risk, yeah.

G: So that's the info that we got.

C: I mean, I'm glad that they do make this character sympathetic because a lot of the tragedy is the whole like recruiting people who are at risk thing, which I feel like we didn't get a lot of sympathy for the girls in the vampire episode. So yeah, I am still glad that they made this guy a sympathetic character. I do think it's unfortunate that they then turn it so that the horror is these formerly homeless men about to turn on nice, suburban families. [both laugh] [G: Yeah.] Like, I think that's a little iffy. What if the horror was just the homeless men on the street getting turned? That's pretty bad already. [G: Yeah.] But yeah, unfortunate.

G: Anyway, this entire time, Sam is being a fucking asshole. So he's getting a ball, throwing it around, and going, "Fetch." I don't know. At some point, what does he go?

C: He whistles and throws the ball.

G: Oh, yeah. [laughs] He keeps on getting the ball and then throwing it. What's wrong with him? Well, he's soulless, number one, and that's why he's mean, allegedly. But anyway-

C: But he's supposed to not have any feelings. He's supposed to be doing things towards a particular aim. But this does seem like he has a feeling of thinking this guy sucks and wanting to make fun of him.

G: Amusement. I don't think it's like he's wanting to make fun of this guy because the guy sucks. I think he's pushing the limit. He's like, curious. I think that's it. Because it doesn't seem like he is bullying this guy in a way that is coming from a place of "I think you're beneath-" He does the guy's beneath him. But like, it's not coming from the place of "I want to make fun of you, and that's it." It's like, "Wait, I'm curious. If I whistle, are you gonna be into it like a dog would be? How much of a dog are you?" That's the kind of question he was asking, I think. Yeah, anyway, Dean says that "You have to cooperate with us because if you don't, your girl and kid are going to be in danger, and they're the only people who have ever shown you kindness in your life, so you might as well help us."

C: Yeah. Also, he implies that Lucky would have to kill that kid, but that's not true. He'd be turning that kid. I guess I don't actually see what's so wrong with turning them if they can control how they change. They could just decide to keep staying human and keep living exactly the way they are.

G: But they will be- they'll be tied to his pack. And that's family. [laughs]

C: Okay, but they're already tied to this pack, right? Why would them being turned mean that they need to listen to the leader more and become dogs in another house? [G: Ah.] There's no actual reason why that be the case.

G: They can be actively attempted to be harmed by the pack, right?

C: But they're already that. I'm saying that turning them doesn't give the pack any more leverage over them.

G: Oh, you're right, yeah. So why is it an inherently bad thing? Well, because Sam and Dean are hunters, and they're going to kill them if they get turned. [laughs]

C: Yeah. But like, I guess to Lucky, why is that an inherently bad thing?

G: I think it's like-

C: And also, why would the pack think they would be willing to go through with the plan to keep turning people?

G: If we're gonna go all psychological on Lucky, I think it's just the desire to preserve what is. [C: Yeah.] I don't think he's thinking necessarily that it's a good or bad, just that it's a good time right now. Why does it have to change? And if this changes, he's gonna have to reckon with the fact that this family is gonna know him. [C: Mm.] So that's something.

C: Yeah, I suppose so. But I guess this is also with the vampire recruiting thing, right? 'Cause they were like, "Oh, once we turn them, the guys will just be into continuing to bite girls because they love pedophilia, and the girls we're gonna mind control them into doing it." So I don't- what was the plan here? Because before, it was vulnerable people, and it was like, "You can either die on the street or do this." That's like a reason. But like, why would you do this?

G: First of all, in the lore of this thing, you can turn into anything, which is like, pretty fun. [laughs]

C: But why would you want to bite other people?

G: No, not saying that at all. I'm still on the conversation of whether it's honestly such a bad thing. [C: Yeah.] And also, all of the people who are going to be that way with you are dog lovers because they all have pet dogs! So like, that's pretty fun. You have your little clubs.

C: Just hang out.

G: Why you would want to bite other people. Maybe you want more people in your club. [both laugh] I don't know! It's like how, you know, people are dating right now through running. People say that, right? People are dating through running.

C: I've never heard of that, but I believe you.

G: Apparently, they're also doing that in Manila. Who would have thunk? It's like a worldwide phenomena, maybe. All cultures, as Sam Winchester would say. [C: Yeah.] Yeah. But maybe this is the new running club. [laughs] You meet people via the "I'm gonna turn into a dog" club.

C: I guess so.

G: I know some people are gonna be into that.

C: That's true. As Sam asks, "Is it a kinky thing?"

G: [laughs] Literally.

C: This plan just seems kind of dumb to me. I don't understand.

G: It is a convoluted thing.

C: Why can't you just be out, biting people, regular style?

G: I don't really like or understand the whole monster bit of this episode. I don't really understand what they're doing. And for a second, I also just didn't understand what was happening after this because like, it's not like they can catch the alpha at this point, right? [C: Right.] They don't know where the alpha is. They don't know who it is, and etc etc. And so honestly, after this, I was like, "What's the point? What are they- Saving the family? What's going on?"

C: Yeah, I think that was the point.

G: That was it?

C: It was mostly a red herring-filled adventure where Sam-

G: Literally DGAF.

C: - realizes that he wants his soul back and Dean realizes he's willing to work for Crowley if it means Sam gets his soul back.

G: Yeah, okay, got it.

C: Dean is saying, "We're not gonna capture the pack leader of these creatures. We are just going to kill him with a sniper rifle." And Sam says, "Crowley's not going to be too happy about that." And Dean says, "Who cares? Or else like this guy has the power to have all these sleeper agents turn on their families and turn 150 people into monsters." And Sam's like, "But what if we captured it and then it told us about where the alpha was, and then Crowley would give me my soul back!" And Dean's just really pissed at this. He's like, "You said that you're just basically Sam and so normo-schnormo, but you're fucking not. You have Sam's brain and body, but it's not you, so stop pretending!"

G: And Sam's response to this was like, "Okay, yay!" [C laughs]

C: Yeah, he said, "Yippee."

G: Yippee!

C: So the setup is that Lucky's told them where he's meeting some members of his pack, or he's called them over to this particular building so that Sam and Dean can have a clear shot. And they have an exchange where Sam's like, "I bet he'll double-cross us," and Dean's like, "No, because he loves that family!" And Sam's like, "Okay, fine. I would double-cross us." Absolute slay. [G: So true.] But yeah, there's a few people who come out, and Dean keeps trying to maybe get the main guy, the guy who's talking to Lucky in the park, but he can't get a clear shot. And those people head inside the building before Dean has a chance, so they have to do plan B. Inside the building, they have captured Mandy and her son and they've taken them inside, and generally- The point is that Lucky killed people without permission, and to prove that he's still loyal to the pack, then he has to turn Mandy and Adrian while they watch. Before that happens, Sam shows up and starts shooting people. [G: Yeah!] Slay! And Dean is up high with his rifle jammed through a hole in some glass in a window, and he's also shooting people.

G: Honestly, when they go "Plan B. What, do you have a plan B?" I wasn't expecting this, for some reason. I thought they were gonna bust in there-

C: I thought Sam was just gonna blow up the whole building or some shit. [both laugh]

G: Yeah, but I thought I thought it was- It's a different thing. I don't think we've seen anything like this in Supernatural yet. [C: Yeah.] I don't think we ever really had an episode where Sam and Dean were skilled shooters, you know? They have a gun, and they shoot it, but nothing to never really occupy our mind in a way where they're good with the guns in a way that is about accuracy.

C: Yeah, agreed. Maybe we forgot. There's been a lot of episodes of this thing.

G: No, I really don't think there has been.

C: Alright. I believe you. And Lucky is trying to help Mandy. He's like, "Come with me. I'll help you hide," and she's like, "I don't know you!" and he goes, "Yes, you do."

G: Ominous. He could have just said, "Please just come with me."

C: Yeah, or just like, "I'm not with these guys, and I want to help or whatever."

G: No, yeah. "I want to help!"

C: Yeah, so he bolts Mandy and Adrian inside- I don't know, not a cage, but an area where they'll be safer. There's just like a long thing where Sam's stalking around trying to get the last of the people in the warehouse. Some of them turn into dogs, and he kills them, and when he shoots them, they turn back into naked men. The guy played by Gunner Lawless is yelling at Lucky, saying like, "How dare you? I gave you your life back. You're nothing to them." And Lucky punches the guy in the face, and this starts a fight, and-

G: Lucky transforms into a dog!

C: Yeah, he turns into a dog, to the shock of Mandy.

G: And the family goes, "Lucky?"

C: Yeah. The Gunner Lawless guy is like, "I can literally just shoot you. You know?"

G: And then he does. Iconic.

C: He does, but not fatally. And then he is about to kill Lucky for real.

G: He has respect on the dog code. No, he was about to kill him.

C: He was about to kill him for real, but Dean gets him before that. So yeah.

G: We didn't really see the fallout of this with Lucky and the family. Because the next thing we see is the family at their house, and Lucky knocks at the door as a dude. And Mandy opens the door, and she's like, disgusted by him and wants him to go away. But he goes, "Hey, sorry to bother you, but I just wanted to tell you that you were like, the closest thing I had to family, and like, you were just so nice to me. It was the first time. And I just want to say, I know this sounds corny, tired, and played-out, but like, thank you." And she just goes, "Get away from us, you psycho! And if you ever, ever come near me or my son again, so help me."

C: I'm surprised there was no "And also, you killed my boyfriend" in there? [G: No.] That seems like maybe one of the most important components of this.

G: The guy's still talking when she cuts him off by closing the door. After a while, the woman opens the door again or something or looks outside, and there's a pile of clothes out there, and there's a dog walking into the fucking sunset. [both laugh]

C: And it's sad music and all that.

G: Yeah. And yeah, why did Lucky the dog cross the road? Truly a question of all time.

Anyway, Sam and Dean, they're going near a river. Of course they are. They're always going near a fucking lake or a river to speak to each other. As they're sitting on the bench, Sam goes like, "Dean, I have something to tell you. I was thinking... you were right." And then he goes, "I'm not your brother. I'm not Sam. All of that shit about being the old me, it's just crap. [C laughs] Lisa and Ben, right? I've been acting like I care about them. But I don't. I couldn't care less!" [both laughing] He's so iconic! Honestly, this line, it is constantly brought up as such a funny moment for soulless Sam. It still did not prepare me for how funny it actually is [C laughing] in the context of the episode. It's hilarious! He literally is just like- And I think it's the face that he makes that makes it. That little Sam frown of like, "I couldn't care less." And it's so important. And Dean's just like, "Is that supposed to make me feel better?" But Sam keeps on going. He says that like, "No, you said you wanted the real me, so I'm telling you. I don't care about them, and I don't really care about you, except that I need your help." And he says that "You're not gonna stick around if I'm not honest with you, so I'm gonna be honest, and here's the things that I've done. I've killed innocent people in the line of duty. I'm sure it's not something that old me could have done, and maybe I should feel guilty, but I don't." And then he goes, "I don't know if it's better or worse because it's different than what it was when I had my soul. You get the job done, and nothing really hurts, but it was harder in the past, but there were feelings that he was-" or like, "There are also things about it I remember that... Let's just say I think I should probably go back to being him," which does touch me. [C: Yeah.] A feeling of longing for your old self or something that Sam's- the feeling of having access to of in your emotional, you know, repertoire. [C: Right.] I think that is a relatable feeling, like, obviously not to the extent that Sam is exhibiting now that Supernatural has established that his soul, his literal soul, is gone. But like, I think it's a touching scene. And, like, I don't know. What do you think?

C: Yeah, I liked it.

G: What did you think about his lines? Do you think it makes sense for him to miss his old self, like with the logic that Supernatural is posing of what soullessness is?

C: Um, not really? [laughs]

G: Not really? I think I understand it, but also maybe I understand it, but I'm applying it wrongly in how I understand it. Because in my case, I would not have access to an emotion I used to feel or something, but I still have access to the other ones that allow me to miss that, you know? For this one, I'm not sure if it follows through with the logic Supernatural has proposed with how this all works, but I'm assuming, you know, the people who conceptualize this, the writer of this episode and such, is only probably only accessing it in the way that I am. And in that way, it's effective, I think.

C: Yeah, I guess- Okay, he has all of Sam's memories.

G: Yeah. So he remembers being happy.

C: He remembers choices and different situations, or feeling happy.

G: Or feeling satisfied, yeah.

C: So he might feel like it's sort of jarring when he does things that don't align with his memories of before, so it could be [G: Oh, yeah.] just wanting to resolve that kind of cognitive dissonance is sort of a way I could see it.

G: Yeah, I think that makes sense. The feeling of like, "I'm supposed to, but I'm not." It's like a wall that that you can't pass through. No, I love it. I don't know. I just, I love Sam! And there is a tenderness that I feel towards the idea that Sam loves Sam too. [C: Yeah.] Even without the emotional aspect of it that having a soul in this case would imbue him, he misses himself! And, you know, we talk frequently about how Sam is so miserable, always! [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] It's nice to know that Sam, to Sam, even without the emotional attachment and the guilt and all that, understand that there's something there, that there's something there that he wants for himself. Yeah, he says explicitly, "It was harder, and it was more complex and difficult," but that there's something there that he wants to go back to still. And it's such a- I understand that people- There has been discussions about whether this is an allegory to depression in some way, right? People have made that case. I think it is solid enough to think that. That concept is solid enough. I don't think it is directly, but it's an allegory, so of course it's not directly. [C: Right.] But I just think in that case, it makes me- Later on in the show, Sam is going to continue being miserable and continue being, you know, all these things, but something you can- I'm tearing up talking about it. [C: Aw!] But something you can't ever say about Sam is that he was hopeless in ways that are bigger than him. Even when he was trying to kill himself, he was hopeful for the world that it will end up leading towards, you know? He was always hopeful about things. I mean, that specifically, in Season 8, he was in a very bad place, but there was still this massive hope that this bad place will lead to a good outcome. And that is, for me, that is what characterizes Sam as a character, that hopefulness. And a part of me thinks, "Is that what he misses?" Because that's what I miss, you know? [C: Yeah.] And yeah, I love Sam so much! Aww! Corny, tired, and played-out. Or is it?

C: Or is it? I think it's wonderful.

G: Oh, thank you. Well, I shall think it's wonderful, too. And Dean is like, "Okay, yay!" [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] And then Sam asks, "So what are we gonna do?" And Dean goes, "We do what we got to do. We get my brother back." And they're at the side of a fucking body of water, [laughing] just like in every episode- like, every five episodes of Supernatural ends this way, and that's kind of important. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] It is always so funny to me, seeing the bones of the show, the format that the show follows. Did you notice that every episode so far- Not every episode, I guess, but the last three episodes or so, Sam is like, "Okay, I'm going to be so honest for real now," [C laughing] and then, at the end of the episode, he goes, "Dean, do you remember everything I said? Lies. [C laughing] I'm gonna be so honest for real now." I wonder if this is the end of it, or if next episode, we will have a "so honest for real" again.

C: What is the next episode?

G: Let's see. I think it's "Clap Your Hands If You Believe."

C: Oh! Love it! He was sleeping with patchouli!

G: Yes, "Clap Your Hands If You Believe." Well.

C: I think he was being for real in that episode. They have the exchange where it's like, [G: "I don't care."] "Well, I tried to get you back. And then, yeah, that was the extent of what I could do, so then I went and fucked somebody. What are you talking about, I was supposed to feel bad all night?"

G: Yeah. Well, let's do Best Line/Worst Line.

C: Alright. I think we know what your best line is.

G: We know what my best line is. It's specifically the part where he says, "But there are also things about it I remember that I... Let's just say I think I should probably go back to being him." I love you, Sam!

C: Yeah, I think that that is the best line. I think the only other line that I thought was okay was when they're interrogating Lucky, and Dean goes, "Oh, you went to sniffing people's butts? Yeah, that's a real step up." And he goes, "Well, it was for me." in a way that I think helps establish the sympathy for this character better than any other line.

G: Yeah. What's our worst line?

C: You did not like "the girl and the little boy" as a phrase.

G: I didn't.

C: But I don't think that's the worst.

G: I think because of the shock that imbued in me when I realized that the Lisa showing up on Dean's phone is supposed to be a parallel to this guy, I'm going to make that my honorary worst line.

C: So true. I did not like when Dean went, "Listen. You don't have to tell me why you're with the family. I get it." because of the mirror establishing properties of that line. [laughs]

G: Yeah, I suppose Sam going, "Fetch," the reason why I don't put it as my worst line is because I do think it is informative of Sam's character in a way that no other scene has been so far, that not really mean-spiritedness, but a curiosity that goes over the line of what is appropriate, which I think is more more characteristic of what he's going through. [C: Yeah.] So, yeah, I did actually like that scene for Sam character perspective.

Spreadsheets? Are we spreading those sheets?

C: I suppose we are.

G: Well, first of all, the topic of this episode, as was mentioned earlier, deserves points in the racism category just automatically. It is fundamental to the episode.

C: Yeah.

G: I would give it a 4.

C: Yeah, I agree.

C: Crowley reminds us of the Bobby kiss, but I honestly don't think that counts. I think that was a slay.

G: I think I count it. 1 point. No no no-

C: Okay. If you count it, I'll count it.

G: Okay, I'll count it 1. But what if he's just gay? I don't wanna- As I've said, I don't want to fault a queen for queening out!

C: Well, okay, the point of that was [G: The writers.] to humiliate Bobby. He was like, "Oh, is that Bobby? Well, reminder that I kissed him in a gay way, and he feels disgusted at himself about it."

G: Okay. And also it's about the writers, not the character.

C: Misogyny, I think there feels to be an undercurrent of it [G: There is.] through the whole saving the girl, blah blah blah.

G: I do think it's fundamental to the episode, but not enough to give it a 3. You know what I mean?

C: Yeah, it feels like a 2 sort of fundamental.

G: Okay, writers? Or, what's this? IMDb. This is an even episode, so I'm going first. I would give this one- I think people would maybe off-put by it. I'm giving it an 8.0.

So "Family Matters," I just checked is an 8.0, so I'm moving down my my grade to a 7.8.

C: I'll do a... 7 point... I never choose the right direction to go in.

G: Go against your heart.

C: 7.9. Let's watch me fail.

G: Okay, let's see, it's a 7.7!

C: Fuck! [sighs] Alright.

G: This one says, "As for the music, I miss the rock, but I don't mind the different style either." I noticed this. They use an egregious amount of music here that is weird.

C: Really?

G: Not weird as in the music is weird, but the choice of playing music in those scenes are weird. There's more like background music in this scene than there usually is, I feel, and it's always dramatically sad in a way that I feel like is uncharacteristic of Supernatural, the "sad scenes are characterized by a piano" show. [C: Yeah.] Just piano with one notes each, I remember one time I made a girl- Wow! "A girl." No, we were girls when we were kids. But you know, I made somebody play the Supernatural theme on the piano-

C: Yeah, you've shared this before.

G: - and she said it was too boring. Oh, fuck!

C: So they know who you're talking about. [G laughs]

C: This first one is doing a real reading response. "There are themes of surveillance and voyeurism which parallel and also intersect at a certain point. At what point does surveillance warp into voyeurism? Does it occur by incident or accident or does anyone even care? [G: Love that.] Traits of ownership, family and protectiveness permeate these themes. Who is the true guardian here? Lucky or the woman he watches over? Or are both guardians of one another in their own way?" I think it's great that somebody wrote all of that.

G: What an interesting- Yeah. Oh, this one says, "The contrast of a monster who looks after a family in his own way versus a cold and ruthless hero whose job is to track a case." I love this! Who reviewed this? Wonderful, misstofu!

C: Yeah. Oh my god, tofu! I love tofu!

G: No, literally! I love when people write good reviews to things because a lot of the times, the reviews right now are like, Letterboxd style.

C: Yeah, where they're just trying to be funny.

G: Yeah, and a lot of people use Letterboxd for movies instead instead of IMDb, so, you know, whatever. But I like when people write long reviews that are reviews the way you would see it in a newspaper or something, like the famous reviewers, for real for real-type reviewers, like reviews that I would read in a collection of Shakespeare-type reviews.

C: [laughs] Uh-huh. By who? Who would write-

G: No, I'm serious. I mean, Auden's reviews on Shakespeare were really good, like Shakespeare productions were actually good, but I'm reading the lectures, not the reviews. [C: Right.] I didn't get through the whole thing, but I read a substantial amount of the Much Ado About Nothing (Bloom's Shakespeare Through the Ages), and it's like, from the very first review of Much Ado About Nothing [C: Aw!] to like- I read until the 1950s. So like, reviews of productions that were produced. And it's it's such an interesting thing. And I do think- this is not true- Sorry, I'm nerding out. This is not true for TV shows because a TV show that was, you know, shown in 2005, we can watch again now, but for more spur of the moment- not spur of the moment. For more temporal forms of media like plays, it's so important, it's so important, and I do fear that we have lost that skill or that niche in society of having a reviewer. Because a lot of the times, it's those reviews that really shape perception. You can see or reflect perceptions in a way that you can only sense in the future through that. [C: Right.] Like here, we're reading reviews from 2011! We're reading reviews from 2010, we're reading reviews that embody what people thought at the time, and you can't, you know, bring that back, and it's so important, I think! Sorry.

C: Yeah, no, I agree.

G: I love Much Ado About Nothing and I love Shakespeare, and so many reviews are so good, and they're from the fucking 1800s, and that's so wonderful to me!

C: Yeah. One person thinks that soulless Sam feels forced and that he seems like too utilitarian or mean or whatever. [G: Huh!] But I don't know. I think it was fine.

G: I think there is a chance that that is the case, like, I'm not gonna deny it. I think-

C: I think the dick monkey confrontation with the detective did feel forced because we've seen him ask people questions before on cases, and he seemed to understand to generally be polite because that is how you get answers. The last review is titled "Kinda gross?" [both laugh]

G: And this is the kind of essential reviews that we need! [both laugh]

C: And it says, "Idk just the idea of a dog/human thing is ridiculous to me but not in a good way. This episode also didn't have any humour to it except ofcourse the wonderful Crowley." [laughs] and that's all of it. Literally, except, of course, the wonderful Crowley.

G: Well, that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 6, Episode 9: "Clap Your Hands If You Believe"! Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and our Spotify Wrapped thing.

G: Yeah, our Spotify Wrapped thing. We recorded it immediately, the day of, which is so fun, as always.

C: Yeah, as always.

G: I think it will continue to be the thing we continue to commit ourselves to in the future.

C: Yeah. And check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

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G: Hello, it's Grey. Just wanted to do two things. One is to correct myself. I don't think there actually are reviews of Auden that are play-specific. Maybe I misremembered. But there are his lectures on Shakespeare, which is what I have been reading. Two, I want to read you a passage from the Romeo and Juliet lecture on W.H. Auden's Lectures on Shakespeare, delivered- this lecture specifically was delivered in November 6, 1946, and this edition was reconstructed and edited by Arthur Kirsch, as in the lectures were reconstructed by Arthur Kirsch. Okay, well- And also, thank you to Crystal for sending over a copy of this book after I had to return the copy I was using to my school library. Okay.

What do you want, in falling in love? Not simply possession. It becomes important to my existence that you exist, and I want my existence to become important to you. I want to know you. Falling in love resembles other experiences that have these qualities. It is a gift, not a thing that you can make happen. There is no command, “Thou shalt fall in love”: the scriptural command is “Thou shalt love.” Falling in love does not demand the return of love. The Thou is not aesthetically or ethically defined, not a prettier or better person, but a unique person. Comparisons are futile for those who have fallen in love: lovers don’t care about comparisons. The Thou must also seem powerful. That’s why falling in love is not often reciprocated. If it is, the feeling of dependence upon one another ensues. And sex.

What are the possible experiences of Thou? (1) Contact with God: religious experience, and (2) the discovery of a vocation. It is characteristic of our age that no one feels that the lack of religious or vocational experience is significant, while no one doubts that the lack of love experience is. A weak self wants to be aggressive in love and to appropriate the Not-self, the lonely self wants to be related through protecting or being protected. In adolescent love, the two are brought together.

You find out who you are when you are in love. The experience is likely to appear at a critical juncture—adolescence, middle age—when a stage of life is being outgrown. The courtly love people were wrong in thinking one can will falling in love, but right in thinking that falling in love is impossible in marriage. There either Thou gets weaker, or we grow to understand Thou, and falling in love becomes love. We see Thou as not a ground for our existence but as someone we can help—perhaps by separation. Parents will separate from their children, for example, in order to wean them. If we equate falling in love with love, it leads to a frenzy of cosmetics, twin beds, etc. Love is different.

In literary tradition there are always obstacles to love. For the intoxicant of romantic love to remain effective it is essential that the relationship not change into something else, dwindle into friendship or domestic, married love, for example, with its ties to the community. No, something must come between the lovers that prevents their union—one of them is already married, there is an interfamily feud, there is a barrier of race, or religion, and should no barrier be present, the lovers themselves must provide one. The purpose of the obstacle is clear: it is to intensify desire by impeding its fulfillment. Now the obstacle that the lovers ideally require must be insurmountable. That is to say, their union must be possible only through their deaths. This is the secret, the religious mystery, of Romantic Love, the mystery that is represented by the suicides of Romeo and Juliet. If people marry on the assumption that love must always overcome obstacles, they will either become unfaithful or they will make things difficult. The better you know someone, the better you can torture him: man and wife become each other’s devils. Falling in love is a good thing if by means of it you become a self with whom it is possible to have a real relationship, if your I can develop. If a person falls in love every five minutes, people rightly suspect he has no heart. Falling in love can be bad if it leads to nothing. There are other ways of discovering oneself, but in our time falling in love seems the commonest. Because of the development of industrialization, [laughs] there has been a decline in religious feeling as well as a decrease in the number of jobs that are really vocations, and in big cities there is also a shrinkage of love and of important relationships to family.

What an interesting passage! What an interesting guy this Auden is. I just thought that was fun and interesting and doesn't need the context of the play, and also, everyone's already read Romeo and Juliet. I don't actually agree with this reading of Romeo and Juliet. I think he is so cynical about this story. Yeah, it's not romantic because they die, but I don't think it's two people making it difficult for themselves. There is an actual difficulty present that they are battling against and that is informing their decisions and their misery, and I don't think they're inventing that misery. Although I suppose what he was trying to say was, after all that, if they did survive, they would have invented misery for themselves because they have defined love as overcoming of obstacles instead of what is after those obstacles itself. Yeah.

#transcript #we did it! merry christmas if you celebrate

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