#i'm just a cleo main so when i started thinking about bigb i also started thinking about cleo

[theminecraftbee]

actually while i’m on an analysis and also bigb train i want to talk a little about the bigb/cleo relationship because. it’s VERY EASY to just read it as “bigb betrayed cleo that one time three seasons ago and cleo has never forgiven him for this” but there’s way more to it than that and it’s so fascinating i want to shake them around like maracas.

like, okay, the initial betrayal is as much a failure to communicate as it is an actual betrayal. cleo says that if bigb had just TOLD HER she would have let him, and I believe this (loyalty is an extremely consistent cleo trait). however JUST EARLIER THAT SESSION she’d also been talking about how she wouldn’t trust someone with the boogeyman curse and can’t believe someone would betray their allies. bigb heard that, decided he couldn’t tell cleo (because she’d hate him for it), and panicked himself right into a corner where he ended up doing the thing that was WAY WORSE for that relationship. also left out is that part of why cleo got that mad wasn’t even bigb’s fault; she was ALSO mad because lizzie and ren sided with him over her, and she felt betrayed by everyone at once. which she then pinned on bigb. meanwhile, while bigb apologized, he never let go of the idea that he'd had no other choice, and never really addressed the unstated hurt of 'cleo also felt like her friends had been turned against her', so it never rang as sincere to cleo. so like, more going on there than just a betrayal!

but like, let’s talk about their relationship after that, shall we?

on cleo’s end, she’s a character who tends to hold on to relationships across seasons, for better and for worse. the widow’s alliance basically never ending; martyn and cleo and their inability to be normal about each other; cleo and etho’s quiet understanding; and, as one of these important tentpoles, bigb and cleo being unable to trust each other. she carried that hurt with her into the few interactions they had in double life, and that in turn helped to color everything else. see, cleo doesn't just hold on to relationships; she holds grudges, and bigb is the ultimate target of that. unlike some of her potential grudges, she's never had a scenario where she and bigb were on the same side in order to temper the grudge. she's also never gotten the boogey curse herself, making it even harder for her to temper it and understand.

so, even after things like limited life where she's started to be less Immediately Angry the moment she feels betrayed (thank you scar for being kind of a moron and getting cleo that lesson), she still holds on to the last life version of bigb in her head. also, because of that, it makes it easy for her to just... continue perpetuating that. she shuns bigb and assumes he has some reason she needs revenge again. that, in turn, pushes bigb to doing another thing she needs revenge for, so she tries to get it, so they keep spiraling downwards in a cycle of mistrust, because cleo has also made herself untrustworthy to bigb.

meanwhile, on bigb's end... he tried to apologize and she wouldn't take it! she sees all of this as an irrational grudge on cleo's part, and there's been very little to discount that. but also because bigb has a tendency to go off and do his own thing and hold himself apart from people, he has made very little effort to meaningfully fix this. in fact, because he assumes cleo will continue to hold a grudge, he continues to treat her a bit like an enemy, continuing to provoke her at multiple opportunities.

he can't make that relationship WORSE, after all, so there's no reason NOT TO continue to mess with her. she'll never trust him, so there aren't real consequences if he keeps burning her, because the only consequence is that she'll just continue to never trust him, right? it's a simple relationship! and in some ways it's comforting, even; cleo is someone he can never mess up with, because that bridge is already burnt.

and ironically? this makes their relationship surprisingly stable. they will KEEP ON sticking knives in each other, of course. even when they don't have a good reason for it, cleo will assume bigb must have done something and bigb will assume cleo will hate him anyway. but in turn, i think they VERY MUCH know where they stand with each other. and tragically, that means neither of them have an incentive to try to fix this. they're both very, very entrenched in how they see each other now, and either of them will see any attempted olive branches as another place for everything to go wrong. they're cleo and bigb, who don't trust each other because bigb killed her one time, forever. that's who they are. that's how they see each other. and it's not just because that happened; it's because they keep reinforcing it, over and over and over again, in a way that makes communicating that they could stop nearly impossible.

that and i think cc!bigb and cc!cleo out of character really enjoy continuing to have their cubitos have a stupid irrational grudge on each other because they think it's funny but that's unrelated to the character analysis,

[eternal-sacrifice]

Been thinking about winners.... Then I thought too hard... Here's my thoughts on.. all of them,,,,

• IF bdubs won next season: he has earned it. It would be great seeing as last season was a 3rd life throwback and sort of a redemption, if the next season was his most difficult we could go full heros journey with this bitch and the win would be incredibly satisfying.

9/10 didn't realize I wanted him to win but, I'm rooting for him now! Convinced me

• If bigB won next season: please let him win. I need him to win. He hasn't gotten a single ounce of attention from the fandom in any of his 4 amazing story arcs, and maybe just maybe they would care about him if he won. With new members joining he could have a fresh start (again), maybe with a win he could pull ahead all on his own, just like he started 2 years ago.

1000/10 I NEEED IT

• if Cleo won next season: hggfhhfjg. Hfhfhgfgg... Divorce quartet real... The animations... The fanart..... It would be so cool. I don't think Cleos character has much motivation to win atm, but if she was forced into a position where she needed to take the win it could be a very refreshing twist on the story.

7/10 we love to see a king winning

• if etho won next season: hey sorry ethogirls I don't know him well enough- all I know is that the fans would become crazy and I'd become an ethogirl. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

• if gem won next season: okay, gem win would be awesome, yeah. Doesn't matter if everyone loves her, doesn't matter if everyone hates her, I just need her to be the main character, be confused, be crazy, die. It would hurt her character so deeply and would be genuinely amazing for her lore.

8/10 this would be sick

• if grian won next season: let's try that again baby! He might have won the first time with kindness, trust, loyalty and true friendship- but it can't be like that anymore can it. Everyone's left him, everyone's moved on, his life is falling apart, and for once he's barely stopping it. He's just trying to understand what's going on. He ends up in a similar situation to s1, and can't take it- he snaps, kills the other players, and wins once more, making everyone go crazy and the fandom die from shock immediately.

4/10 hmmmm

• if impulse won next season: HES BEEN SOOOOOO CLOSE FOR THE PAST 4 SEASONS. GIVE IT TO HIM PLEASE. only if he weasels his way in though, I love it when he's a lying little cheat and a freaky lil traitor. He needs everyone in his life to leave him or trust him completely and I will die on that hill.

7/10 hehehehe impman

• if Jimmy won next season: ughhhhhhh. Okay. So. Canary boy. He has never experienced pain before in his entire life. For those reasons 1. I'd love for him to win so he can finally understand the series he's in 2. I'd hate for him to win because nooo he broke the curse :((

Canary/10

• if Joel won next season: SBDBDJSKXBJDBXKSDBJDHSHAHDH THAT WOULD BE SO GOOOOOOOD WAIT WAIT WAIT I HADN'T EVEN CONSIDERED- so he's been alone the past 4 seasons, yeah. Even during double life with his loving husband, he knew he would end up alone again in the end, so it was all for nothing in his eyes. He gave his full trust and loyalty to his boys, something he's not used to, and if next season he's alone again- he can't take it. He goes about it smarter then last life, though- he keeps to himself, makes himself stronger the whole season, builds companionship with people (they're not used to him being so friendly), and wins with a last minute betrayal or simply being the last man standing. He would barely expect it, but it would heal his character so much, and also break him.

9/10 WOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!you better do this right asshole. Just kidding however he wins will be perfect

• if Lizzie won next season: similar to gem, but with more spite, and more guarenteed loneliness. It would be- really hard for her to take another season. All of her allyships would be strained, and I can totally see her joining or even commanding another big group, but she'd be alone in reality. A win for her would be cruel.

5/10 queen please

• if martyn won next season: illegal

• If mumbo won next season: I'd go crazy. Mumbos got so many satisfying ways to take his character, and the FANART and god lhbevfuebejrkje. Hes only been there once. He never learned how to play the game. If he won this time- hendndjdjbthekdndkelkebek 500/10 I need it

• if pearl won next season: as much as I would love for her to win again, 1. Too soon, she hasn't recovered from the first one please 2. The fandom would hate her for it 3. She already got what she needed from her first win. It'd be unnecessary for her character arc. It's very unlikely anyways, I'm sure if she got in that situation again, which might happen, she'd give it to whoever else is there.

3/10 I'm sorry goddess

• if Ren won next season: PLEASEEEEEE BE KIND TO HIMMMMMM honestly I think they would just give him the win. He's gonna get in a nice group, they're gonna have loyalty to him and he's gonna have loyalty to them, and wherever it goes he's gonna end up in the endgame again. Everyone there will understand that he deserves that win. If they don't martyn will kill em all into understanding lol. Maybe we could get a desert duo "you can kill me" moment but martyn refuses and kills himself. That would be so cool of him actually

7/10 my doggo deserves love but not like this

• if scar won next season: :3c

He need to okay. He needs to. I don't care how it happens I don't care when it happens I just need him to murder grian and get the win. I need him to understand that HE DESERVES TO WIN. he's gone through so much and he still doesn't understand his self worth, but if he kills that stupid bitch and calls upon old allies to help him get to the end- it could be so lovely oh my god

10/10 my brother in Christ

• if Scott won next season: this would kill him he would leave

0/0 I'm scared

• if skizz won next season: okay his story thus far wasn't amazing, oh wait it was. ACTUALLY HIS LIMITED LIFE WAS THE ONLY GOOD LIMITED STORY(completely untrue but listen IT WAS FULL, THERE WAS A WHOLE CHARACTER ARC even if it was good person to better person, HE IS SO TALENTED AND CHARISMATIC IF HE TEAMED UP WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE NEXT SEASON I COULD TOTALLY SEE IT BEING AMAZING. HE DESERVES IT. AND HIS WIN WOULD BE AWESOME.

9/10 he's pretty give me a break

• if tango wins next season: okay while all of his seasons other then last life have been boring it could be fun. I mean okay, double life wasn't boring. And I can't say anything about 3rd life. Sure, jeez, he can win. Just need him to get mad and kill some guys first ^_^

5/10 go for it guy

Sorry I advance to everyone I angered deeply with this post, I don't know all the characters perfectly. I can't wait to see this age like fine wine with the next season, honestly whoever wins I'll be crazy about no matter what. I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this!

[katalyist]

I rewatched Grian's pov of last life some days ago (you know, as everyone does with their favorite season of the series) and the surprise I had when in the last episode I heard "Joel, this is the ultimate betrayal, I'm sorry" when they were trying to trap the main path and Joel was under a lot of TNT and Grian was just one block away of the lever that triggered everything.

Like, I knew limited life was a lot similar to last life but Grian didn't had to pull out the same phrase to one of his red allies the two times, you know?

My natural response to this information is to make a headcanon about it and make it about Grian and his trauma responds to being betrayal.

If you watch the episode he sounds like he couldn't help himself, he was nervously laughing, seeing the lever and Joel and then the lever back and saying "Joel- Joel, you don't understand!" with the same defeat energy he said "There was buttons on the floor, Jimmy!" in limited life, like it is part of his nature, like he was trying to excuse his nature and even warn Joel to get away to the fire zone before he inevitable pull the lever. I'm pretty sure he would have done it if Joel stayed there.

So yeah, silly Grian response to pull down levers and touch buttons until seeing what it does. But I want to add how this might be also an unconscious response to the trauma of being betrayed several times in the past and fearing that people he trust would do that to him again, not only for Scar big betrayal in third life but the ones in last life too.

So, let's make a list of the ones I remember:

He was exiled of the Southlands when he become red (that isn't really a 'betrayal', but he did feel that one "exiling me from the base that I create", he felt that they abandoned him because he was a loose cause now).

Mumbo and Jimmy trying to kill him a couple times until Grian end up killing both of them for being traitors (isn't curious how when he was red he never try to go for the Southlands?)

Martyn inmediatly turning against him when he was the boogeyman and leaving for another alliance the moment he become red again.

When Bdubs pretend to join the red alliance but end up killing Lizzie.

Like, this one was a group of people he trusted and wanted to stay with. And I understand most of it is justifiable, but that doesn't erase the feeling of betrayal they provoke, that stays no matter how much you want to rationalize it (and Grian does try).

And in all of this except when he was exiled he has a fight response, Mumbo and Jimmy have tried to kill him for the fourth time, that's it, he is killing them, Martyn betrayed him the second he become the Boogeyman? He is trying to kill him, Bdubs betrays the red alliance? He is killing him!

His pilot answer of being betrayal is fighting back. I think that is the reason why he was 'ultimate betrayal' Joel in that episode, because Joel has become red two times, technically he is the reason he lost his friends one time, is logical that he thinks he could betray him and tries to do it first but at the same time doesn't want to do it, doesn't want to get rid of the only friend he has left.

I think this is something Grian starts to do automatically after this. In double life, he plans the stalactite kill on Ren and he doesn't have in count that for the soulmate link he is also gonna kill BigB until he does.

And finally in limited life the las episodes Scar was threating them, trying to kill Joel a couple times. But Scar was also someone that Grian considerate an 'allie' and was pretty chill with him when neither the noisy neighbors or Cleo where around, he does the ultimate betrayal and is successful, probably because Scar wasn't putting attention, but Grian does try to warn him that he is gonna attack him, he does a quite "I'm sorry, Scar... This is the ultimate betrayal" and he apologizes but at the end, he killed him.

My other theory is combining this with Grian's curse of getting rid or being the cause of the deads of the people he cares about, almost like this is the way the Watchers punish him for entering the game: forcing him to betray people he cares about.

I could talk about Last life Grian for hours, he is my favorite and the dynamic of Joel and him is so silly I love them.

Thank you for coming to my Grian rant of the week.

[erstwhilesparrow]

sorry that was really confident of me, i should say i haven't finished lizzie's last life, and i have only seen cleo's last life session 4. there are my sources. now. let's make a list:

okay. i'm annoyed with myself for not taking more detailed notes at the time, but i am sort of gnawing at drywall that people (bigb, cleo) come to the fairy fort and notice lizzie's dogs and are like, "ah, your dogs will protect you from danger!" this is because later, lizzie is going to get one (1) Rendiggitydog. i am thinking about how ren does the math for lizzie on how many diamonds she'll need to get a full set of armour, and then later returns from an adventure with diamonds that he specifically gives to lizzie so she can get diamond boots. she has her loyal knight! she has her dogs. thinking about cleo standing over the burning fairy fort while lizzie and ren and bigb watch them. i know what i'm about to say is kind of Inventing A Dynamic and thus not quite what i promised but you could do something here about cleo+ren+lizzie and the notion of stop hiding behind your dogs and face me.

also shoutout to catrina belovedgamers for noting that at one point lizzie calls a meeting of the castle alliance and ren, who isn't sure whether he's part of this, waits just outside the front entrance for a bit, "like a good dog." :]

bigb and lizzie have a whole conversation about how bigb hasn't seen cleo in a bit that session, and they joke about how maybe she took off because she was the boogeyman, and bigb suggests maybe cleo was going to wait and plot before coming back to stab bigb in the back. the threeshadowing is wild. i realize this is not really about shadowrot but i went "!?!?!?" about it upon first hearing it and wanted to share.

cleo does nice things for lizzie? like yes their introduction is cleo pointing out that lizzie's Extremely Safe Circle Of Trees is very flammable (which i would call threeshadowing if not for the fact that we can't call every instance of people correctly noticing that flammable things are flammable in the life series threeshadowing; stuff getting burned is just kind of a rule of how the games work, like gravity) and doing some light threatening about how their castle's height relative to the fairy fort would make it quite easy to set the whole thing on fire, but then cleo is the one who puts fences in front of the main entrance to the fairy fort. they ask in chat "do you need help?" after lizzie dies to that zombie. they agree to make a secret tunnel connecting their bases and checks that lizzie is okay when she gets back from joel's attempted boogey kill. this is nice. this is charming.

and the OTHER thing that adds flavour to this is that lizzie is Very Obviously new to the death game! she smelts sand into glass panes for her house! (completely unrelated, did you know scott smajor also does this. in double life. and then realizes he doesn't have enough sand left for tnt. sorry, i like scott.) she turns her sugarcane into paper and then into nametags for her dogs. cleo has to remind her things can and do burn on this server. cleo's done this once already and can guess how it will go; lizzie doesn't know yet. some kind of old mirror. (and later, in secret life, cleo will have been in every game since the start, and lizzie was there for one, and then gone until now.)

hey scar keeps calling lizzie 'liz'. this isn't related to shadowrot , i just like thinking about people's names and what people call each other.

lizzie says she's going to entrust the enchanting table to cleo and cleo laughs and immediately says that's a bad idea. cleo's not going to pretend about it, but they are still. trusted. for someone who is constantly running around and talking like a terrified, paranoid chihuahua, lizzie's also pretty trusting, huh?

also. really charmed that lizzie comes back from her boogeyman kill and goes, "i feel much better, thank you," and cleo just laughs, even though lizzie fully and blatantly lied to them and bigb about not being boogey. later, lizzie is talking to someone (i've forgotten who) and you can hear cleo laughing quietly in the background. they think she's funny!! and she is!! to be fair!! but this is charming to me also.

speaking of the boogey kill. lizzie uses CLEO as a ~scapegoat to lure scott and pearl into following her to her trap. 'oh i'm worried they're going to kill me, they threatened me a few times', etc etc. and it works!! there might be Something here about lizzie... being happy to instrumentalize people? their reputations and skills and resources? there might be something here about Knowing scott and pearl and cleo's reputation and leveraging all three of those things at once. hey remember lizzie instantly correctly guessing that the person who told ren that impulse was the boogeyman was etho? i think she might actually be really good at this.

"i don't know what came over me, i'm so sorry" <- having this from lizzie (said to scott) before bigb's kill on cleo... does explain some things about the "you've never been boogey, you don't know what it feels like" defense.

[watches three episodes of lizzie last life] OH. OH OKAY. YEAH OKAY I UNDERSTAND SHADOWROT NOW.