#i'll also reblog the post itself in a sec | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

venus-is-thinking · 2 years ago

Text

Hi, I'm back!

I just want to say up front that I'm going to be referencing some of the points you made in your threat with @ivibells. Because you explained some points in more depth there, I think it'll help to look at some of those. I'll of course still be referencing this response as well, though.

In chapter 1, there was only ONE speech bubble meant to insult Nico whereas chapter 2, there's roughly TWENTY FIVE speech bubbles meant to insult Nico. Therefore, I don't think Ace's comment in chapter 1 is that relevant.

I wouldn't quite say it wasn't relevant just because it only happened once. From a writing perspective... I don't know if you've ever tried writing a fangan, but if you have, something that you'll probably realize pretty quickly is that you can't establish every meaningful relationship in chapter 1. You can get a lot of groundwork in, but it's really hard to set everything up all at once.

Ace and Levi's relationship is the focal point for Ace in chapter 1, because its boiling point is in the chapter 1 trial. Meanwhile, Ace's relationship with Nico hits its (current) boiling point in the chapter 2 daily life, which means that if one of them needs to be moved to chapter 2 for pacing reasons, it's easily Nico's.

Of course, that doesn't mean that, in-universe, Ace and Nico have to not hate each other in chapter 1. It's very possible in my opinion that the creator put the interaction between Ace, Nico and Xander into chapter 1 because they wanted to hint at the Ace/Nico relationship, but they didn't have the time or space in the daily life to emphasize it like they do in chapter 2.

Your explanation is also plausible, and I definitely think that Ace does become more of a bully post-Xander's-death for that reason. I'm not disagreeing with that; it's definitely true. I'm just pointing out that I think it's possible that this is true in addition to all that Ace characterization stuff.

TW: EATING DISORDERS

Okay, let's unpack this for a sec.

I don't want to argue the fine points of EDs here because I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject. However, in the ivibells reblog, there were a couple things I wanted to look at.

However, if someone with such disorder would be obsessed with exercise, aren't they doing this mostly because they don't want to gain weight? Wouldn't they just be motivated to do whatever they can to avoid gaining weight instead?

Weight training/strength training obviously does burn calories and thus can help prevent gaining weight. Specifically, strength training increases metabolism, so your body naturally burns calories faster.

However, I'd assume that if you're an Ultimate in a sports profession who also might have an ED prompting them to exercise you'd want, like... different kinds of workouts? Like, anyone who's heard a "don't skip leg day" joke gets the idea that people who actually go to gyms work out different muscles for different purposes. If he can only do stuff in his room, it'd probably severely limit the variety of exercises he could do. Especially for something like cardio, other than, like, jumping in place for a while or something, there aren't many good options in a confined and safe space.

Anyways, I don't really feel strongly enough about that to comment on it by itself. The thing I really wanted to address was this:

If [Ace tried to maintain his exercise routine in his room before the gym was made available in chapter 2], then this goes to show that he would be able to exercise anywhere else and if he ever gets in a situation where his life is in danger, then he would undoubtedly resort to a safer location to exercise instead.

I just wanted to say that this shows that Ace might exercise in his room when he doesn't have another option. Personally, I don't think it tells us that he would necessarily choose his room over the gym, even if there's some amount of associated danger. It'd be one thing if he had willingly worked out in his room instead of, like, a pool or something in chapter 1 (showing that he preferred his room over another place where he theoretically could exercise "better"), but to me, that doesn't really tell us much. Honestly, I could see that for someone obsessive with his eating/exercise like Ace, the fact that he might not have been able to properly exercise in chapter 1 could make him even more fixated on making sure he exercises properly in chapter 2. If it is a control-based thing for him, his routine was interrupted without his control. He would want to regain that control by regaining his routine.

Anyways, that's my two cents on that.

TW ED OVER

Or maybe... Ace is actually putting on an act? He's trying to act tough, like I said before! We both agree that Ace's been a lot more aggressive towards Nico ever since chapter 2 episode 2, right? We also both agree that he's afraid of being the next victim.

I wanted to touch on this bit, too. As you stated here, we agree on this fact: Ace amped up his bullying behavior because he wanted to appear tough. He didn't want to be the next victim.

However.

By taking these facts into account, we get an interesting deduction out of this. Ace found himself a perfect opportunity to both make himself look tough as heck while also bringing valuable information to the others, so he would look useful. He killed two birds with one stone by pretending to be at the gym that night and then exposing David's secret afterwards.

There's just one problem I have with this interpretation. That being, no one would think Ace was tough just because he went to the gym the night after he was almost murdered.

I know how that sounds. But, there's something very important that I think you might have forgotten:

If Ace wanted to look tough for (allegedly) going back to the gym after Nico almost killed him there, why wouldn't he mention the fact that the gym was the site of the murder location?

I'm very curious what you think about that, because I do think it largely removes any incentive for Ace lying about it being later than it actually was. If he was lying to look tough by saying he went back to the gym, well... he should have made it clear that it was the gym in the first place.

One last thing real quick.

But why does Ace have such a different behavior compared to chapter 1? Why does Ace seem unfazed by the near death? Is it because Ace actually really changed? That's laughably unlikely. People don't change that easily in such a short amount of time. That thing takes time and progression.

However, when it comes to being nearly murdered by someone else's hands, this should have a serious effect on the victim being Ace. It definitly changed Teruko when she was nearly killed, why wouldn't it be the same for Ace? Aside from Ace being angrier towards Nico, there's no other noticeable difference, which is just really strange to me, especially coming from someone who was visibly scared of death.

Anyways, that's my stupid way of saying I already put out an explanation that I think is suitable as to the way in which Ace changed after almost being murdered. I know that you think it's too harsh of a change to happen overnight, but Ace is a pretty erratic guy. I could see him jumping around on pretty extreme stances.

In my opinion, if the creator really intended for Ace to get a sudden burst of courage and be like "I'm gonna use the gym whenever I want, I don't care if I die anymore", that'd just be odd writing, to put it nicely.

To be clear, I think I wasn't clear enough about how I'm interpreting Ace here. I am in no way saying that Ace has a sudden burst of courage and that's why he goes back to the gym. I'm saying that Ace has a sharp increase in apathy, and as a result, he decides to continue with his routine despite the potential threat of Nico.

Anyways, as always, thanks for your time and the reblog! I will say, reading the ivibells thread, you almost convinced me. The trial evidence of everyone saying Ace is behaving suspiciously is definitely your strongest argument to back up your "Ace is lying about the day" theory. The core issue I have is that I think the whole "Eden dressed up as Arei" thing is extremely unlikely, and if that isn't the case, I'm not really sure how the crime could be a day earlier.

Something we mustn't forget about chapter 2 (DRDT)

As usual, this is a spoilers warning for DRDT chapter 2, so beware.

So, I'm sure some of you have seen me have a reasoning battle against a few people, most especially @1moreff-creator. We've had some really interesting back and forth happening.

This post is meant to be a response to 1moreff's latest post regarding their theory. So think of it as a reblog.

Why don't you just simply reblog then?

Well, that's the thing. I... messed up. For any reblogs I've made on their original theory post, they were all long posts that didn't have a cut section, a "read more" button.

So everytime you look at a reblog, you'd have to scroll through all of that to reach the latest reblog. Even though I eventually edited them all later on, the original versions are still there on the previous reblogs because the edit doesn't go through previous reblogs and the reblogger cannot edit others' posts eitheir.

So yeah... sorry about that.

But trust me however, this is a very interesting read. Especially if you've seen my version of the theory. 1moreff's uses the same whodunnit and whydunnit in their theory, but they used a totally different path as for the howdunnit. I'd recommend you all to read it if you haven't already.

With that out of the way, let's get to business. It won't take too long, I promise.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

(I'm now adressing to @1moreff-creator)

So uhm... I don't really have much to add in regards to your reblog. You've made your point in regards to anything I tackled on and we're pretty much at a stance where I can't really prove that x thing happening while you can't prove that y thing happened. Eitheir of those could work. And because they both work, they're both technicly valid.

Besides, you've already pointed out what could be your issues in regards to your theory.

the glove; the BDA having a lacking explanation; how hard and risky it would be to convince Levi of being an accomplice (though narratively consistent because of the good person thing); and how risky it is to use such a time-sensitive method.

Your biggest issue is definitly the glove, no doubt about that. Even though you do have some kind of explanation for it, it's not something you're quite convinced yourself eitheir.

In any case, I'm not gonna dwelve on it much unless you can eventually think of more solutions to these problems.

So what's the point of this "reblog" if you're not gonna refute against any of these points?

Well, upon doing my own detective work to fix my own holes in my deduction, I discovered something really interesting. Something that I can't believe I didn't realise sooner.

It has something to do with Ace's testimony. There's something off about it. There's a glaring issue with it which will become quite an issue for you.

What do you mean?

Let's start with a very quick recap. According to you, everything that Ace saw according to the flashback really happened. Meaning that in your theory, Ace was working out in the gym during the evening of DAY 3, then he heard Arei and David talking. So he decided to spy on them. So everything he heard and saw must be the truth.

According to my own theory however, Ace was not working out in the gym during the evening of DAY 3. Instead, he was working out in the evening of DAY 2, spied on them that evening and then got knocked unconscious for the attempted murder later on, which would explain why the weight rack was moved in the fitness room. So ace was eitheir lying or confused about the day he witnessed the conversation.

Anyways, if people were to believe that your version of that theory is indeed what truly happened, then we'd have to deal with a very glaring issue that I can't believe I didn't notice until yesterday. I'm convinced more than ever that Ace is wrong about the day he witnessed the conversation. It's based on simple common sense.

Common sense? It can't be that simple!

Oh, it sure can!

So according to Ace, he heard Arei talk to David in the relax room during the evening, the day after he nearly died, right? According to him, at the time, he was working out before he heard them.

So tell me... would he really dare spend time ALONE working out in the gym, literally the place where he nearly died, A DAY after he's been attacked?!

I don't think so. Especially Ace, of all people. He's a coward. That makes no sense.

But Teruk-

Teruko's different from Ace. She's no coward and she's been through a lot of bad crap her whole life based on what we learned so far. Teruko's unlucky.

Anyways, If you cannot find a proper explanation for this, then I'm afraid that your theory could potentially crumble.

I could go out of my way to explain how it would crumble, but essentially, it would come down to me explaining that the more issues you would be able to explain if you were to admit that Ace was indeed lying about the day he witnessed that conversation, the more it would look like my theory.

But before I do that, I'm gonna give you the opportunity to solve this issue I've mentioned about Ace's testimony. I think I have an idea of what you'll claim, but let's see how this plays out.

(Sorry for not reblogging this time around and sorry again for the mess I've created in those reblogs)

#drdt #drdt spoilers #drdt theory #ace markey

44 notes · View notes

evilkitten3 · 2 years ago

Text

@blueper-saiyan

#Not sure if I’m allowed to pull out these tags as a separate reblog#but that is an interesting and fucked up theory I like it#and absolutely want to hear the long version#vegeta

you absolutely are as far as i'm concerned but since op's post was getting a bit long i'll respond here

dbz always reblog i have a theory that there's actually a reason for this it stems from my theory that vegeta's mom doesn't exist bc he's a clone of his dad basically it eventually become obvious that frieza was going to take whichever kid was heir to the throne so king vegeta (kv i guess) went ''aight we need a Super Baby (no tuffles allowed) and i'm the coolest guy on the planet. need a baby me'' so he gets a bunch of the buffest nerds imaginable (be real saiyan scientists like the job bc they get to fight physics) and start working kv: i need this kid to last as long as possible we're gonna need to buy some time scientists: got it boss *proceed to make the universe's most ridiculously hard to kill infant* how's this kv: excellent. frieza catch! frieza: oh this is adorable! i'm going to traumatize it =) <-an extremely brief summary of my hc

(^the tags in question)

ok so first there are a couple of things i need to get out of the way ahead of time– namely, i'm not the first person to come up with the vegeta-is-a-clone idea; the first person i saw with that idea was someone who wrote a fic i read a while back that i'm blanking on the name of at the moment, and while their version is massively different from mine, the core concept of clone!veggie is more or less the same

the second thing is that i get way too into world building sometimes and so a lot of pieces of my hcs get mixed up with one another and often don't fit in with established canon (which isn't like abnormal or anything but i want to clarify that i already know some of this doesn't perfectly slot up. in my defense the db timeline doesn't even match up with itself half the time)

the final thing is that while i've seen bits of the anime and the first handful of super episodes, i'm mostly a manga fan, so i view any non-manga parts of dragon ball as free real estate

buckle up, i was not kidding about the length (*immature snickering*)

SO.

first and foremost the relationship between the tuffles and the saiyans: the tuffles are described as being a peaceful yet technologically advanced race, but in my hc, they're a bit more complicated than that. for starters, i don't see how a supposedly peaceful race is going to have high-tech blasters, and while it's possible that they're for defensive purposes, it... really doesn't give off that vibe. also they were super into some fairly questionable science, some of which objectively involved human experimentation (or... humanoid experimentation, i guess)

jumping back to the future for a sec: gohan. gohan is a half-human, half-saiyan male hybrid, and while two separate species somehow producing a hybrid child isn't unheard of, male hybrids are almost always completely infertile. and yet, gohan grows up and has a kid (another explanation is gohan and videl are t4t, which i also love, but it doesn't really fit into this). so how are saiyans and humans not only capable of reproducing together, but capable of having children that can also reproduce? my theory here is that saiyans are genetically modified (early) humans– tuffles arrived on earth sometime prior to homo erectus finishing the jump to homo sapiens, grabbed a handful of various lab rats, and got to work.

this would also explain why saiyan tails look the way they do. to elaborate, here's a spider monkey skeleton:

notice how the tail is made up of more vertebrae that continue along the same curve as the rest of the spine. meanwhile, goku's tail looks like this:

it juts straight out, almost perpendicular to his spinal cord. to me, that does not look like how tails work– it looks grafted on. in the video game kakarot, bulma even makes goku a fake tail for him to fish with that he can just... stick right on there. i know dragon ball science is already broken af (someone please explain to me how dr briefs isn't basically a deity for inventing capsules), but if the tail is a genetic trait that didn't evolve naturally, it makes some sense (in the way anything in dragon ball makes sense, that is)

so– saiyans are a highly adaptable species that seem to be able to eat basically whatever, can both endure and dish out catastrophic amounts of damage, are biologically driven to fight to the point where it's hard to imagine how a society full of them could function at all, get stronger whenever they recover from being seriously injured, can transform into giant apes, and yet have a glaringly obvious weakness that can pretty much completely incapacitate them if you know about it? they seem designed for war, and not in the natural evolution-is-just-funny-like-that-sometimes way.

what we know about the tuffles sort of differs from source to source, but the most negative opinions come from the saiyans– according to vegeta, the tuffles basically treated them as slaves. which... yeah, that adds up, given everything.

anyway, here's where i divorce from canon entirely bc according to gt, king vegeta iii is the one who led the saiyans in the war against the tuffles, which raises... honestly so many questions. so i'm ignoring that; it was vegeta i and he was never officially king, but more on that later. i also need to note that the whole "saiyans lived on planet sadala, fucked it up, and moved to planet plant which later became planet vegeta" to my knowledge is not manga canon but since i like the general idea, i sorta moved it a bit.

in my version, the saiyans and the tuffles both lived on planet sadala, but the war between the two species got a little out of hand and the planet was kaputski (to be fair, if you suddenly got to turn into a giant ape and wreak havoc on the people who were possibly enslaving you, you might go a bit overboard too), so the saiyans stole all the tuffles' ships and gtfo'd (this is why everyone was so sure the tuffles were gone. bc typically blowing up someone's planet is a good way to get rid of all of them. at least in theory– i'm sure frieza can tell you all about how well it works in practice)

back to vegeta i– he wasn't a king, technically, but he was the saiyan who started, led, and according to all saiyan sources (which are biased but w/e) finished the revolt, and chose to die on the planet in an act of heroic sacrifice and/or symbolism and/or his daughter twisted a fact or two bc propaganda is a game we all can play, and the new planet they landed on was named after him. said daughter took the same name, declared the planet and the king to be one and the same, and set about conquering the shit out of it. so vegeta ii was technically the first king but if you asked her she was the second and also disrespecting her father and probably also about to be killed via spear (oh btw king vegeta ii is famed for her giant war spear which was very cool and intimidating and probably didn't see much use outside of ritual combat bc it's honestly more efficient to just blast people but all the statues and art and whatnot have her with it)

i'm going to take a minute to gloat about vegeta ii bc honestly she's one of my alltime favorite ocs that i've made, despite the fact that i don't intend to ever have her show up in anything (yass gurl haunt that narrative!!!) but basically she's a deeply respected figure in saiyan culture, although she died way before any of the saiyans still alive in dbz were born (except nappa), bc she... basically built saiyan culture from scratch. pretty much all the core beliefs the saiyans as a people had were from her very deliberately and surprisingly sneakily forcing them to be developed bc she was fully aware that the saiyans needed more than a love of battle to actually survive as a society independent of the tuffles. she basically had the whole thing set up and ready to last and become a proper empire but unfortunately the one kid that lived long enough to succeed her (by killing her in combat, obviously, and yes the others all tried and died– she's an important figure, not a nice one) ran face first into frieza and we all know how that went down

anyhow, vegeta ii's reign (which lasted a crazy long time bc she lived way longer than she should've and almost certainly used some kind of not-so-great method of living that long, but in her defense she needed to make sure at least one of her kids was cool enough to be in charge, so what's a few war crimes between monarchs) pretty much cemented all the saiyan pride and identity that vegeta iv is so fond of, and not just bc she was his grandma either.

the reason i have to get through all of that to explain my clone!vegeta theory is bc i need to explain why king vegeta iii became king in the first place– under vegeta ii's system, anyone could challenge for the throne at any time, regardless of who they were. her own children were expected - but not required - to do so, and if she died before an heir could kill her in glorious combat, the princes would become stewards and have the duty of finding the next king (who couldn't be one of them. fight and die for that shit like a real saiyan or no throne for you). however, there was actively incentive not to do that bc A) whoever's in charge has to actually be in charge and therefore gets to fight way less, and B) in order to become king you had to be ritually stripped of your identity as a person with the understanding that if you died during your challenge your name would be stricken from all records, none of your family or friends would ever acknowledge that you had ever existed, and you would simply cease to be (the afterlife doesn't follow these rules but most of the saiyans who are there still do, including the ones who by saiyan law no longer exist. say what you will about saiyans; they're a dedicated lot)

so anyway vegeta iii (before becoming vegeta iii – he had a different name bc names are super important in my version of saiyan culture but if i get into that here we will literally be here for the rest of the week - but i'll call him that for the sake of my sanity) is somewhat reluctant to challenge for the throne bc none of his siblings have managed it (not that they exist anymore whoops), but one of his colleagues/presumed ruling partner (not gonna get into saiyan relationships here either sorry) has been pushing him to do so for a while now

i think i've gone through a few names for vegeta's not-mom, but the most recent one is touga (from tougarashi, or capsicum annuum, and yes i was thinking of neon orange glimmer song by the mountain goats when i named her), so i'll call her that. touga is a pretty saiyan-y saiyan– she's violent, temperamental, proud, strong, and so forth, but another thing she is is deeply, deeply loyal to her people. she's also very aware of vegeta iii's weaknesses (such as "will probably care a little too much about kids if he has any" and "may make decisions based off of feelings instead of cold hard practical logic" and "seems likely to develop emotional attachments to family members"; you know, normal kingly failings) and has the lady macbeth-esque stainless steel go-fuck-yourself coldness to make up for her future husband's pathetic little morals or whatever

anyway, touga pushes vegeta iii to go for the throne bc holy shit his mom has been alive for way too long but also she has faith in hi or something and duty and whatever and dude do it if you ever want this saiyan tail, and eventually he caves and goes for it. he fights his mom, wins, gets a shiny new king name and is all set to run his kingdom. and then king cold shows up.

now in between killing his mom and our favorite chilly boys coming to town, vegeta iii and touga have had a kid, prince escallion (who is a girl ftr but i can't get into saiyan thoughts on sex/gender or the language or even escallion herself in this post bc we will never ever leave). escallion is pretty neat, just the strongest baby in history or whatever, but then post-cold arriving and politely yoinking the saiyans into his empire, rumors start spreading that frieza miiiiight be wanting a saiyan under his personal command. no prizes for guessing whose palace he's looking at for pickings. obviously the only prince they've got is not someone they can afford to lose, but they need a sure bet on super-infants and can't afford hoping for a genetic bingo, so vegeta iii assembles the universe's swole-est scientists and has them get started on making the Coolest Baby Ever (by cloning him, the king, bc he's the strongest but also bc frieza is an asshole and likes playing mind games with people so let's be real he's taking one of the king's kids no matter how tough they are)

so vegeta iv gets made (and named inappropriately but that's frieza's fault and a story for another time so ignore it for now) and eventually tarble is born and almost immediately sent off just in case frieza decides to be a bigger dick than usual (spoilers: frieza is going to decide to be an even bigger dick than that), and vegeta gets to spend the first few years of his life with his dad, big sis, and not-mom until he gets shipped off to go be a child soldier/slave/distraction, at which point frieza goes ahead and blows up the planet. there's more to it than just that, but i may actually want to write it out some day, so i'll keep the rest to myself for now.

#dbz #clone vegeta theory #dbz meta #dragon ball #dragon ball z #dbz headcanons #vegeta #vegeta iv #vegeta iii #king vegeta #long post #like super long #i said extremely brief and i meant it this is a long freakin' post #guest appearances by a monkey's skeleton and goku's ass #thanks for mooning the camera kiddo couldn't have done this without you #blueper-saiyan if you actually read all of this you may gain a powerup of some kind

49 notes · View notes