#i wonder if this is something else that can be traced back to tolkien's war experience

[mamalaw1021]

the lord of the rings is a great work of literature and film for a lot of reasons but one of them is that it understands the importance of having a little treat

[alydiarackham]

(cover by me)

How to Be a Hero Like a Villain by Alydia Rackham

Introduction

I��m Basically a Geek

                 Hi. Yeah, so, it’s true. I’m a geek. Have been forever. I really had no shot at being otherwise. My mom raised my brother and I on musicals and Star Wars and Star Trek and Disney. Growing up, I read loads of YA sci-fi novels—again, lots of Star Wars—and then when Marvel started making movies, I got into X-Men and then Iron Man, Thor (my major crush on Loki still remains alive), Captain America, then Batman; all that jazz. I’m also a Disney fanatic and a theatre nerd.

I was an English major in college, am in love with Tolkien and Austen and Dickens and Doyle, and adore all things Victorian. My friend Jaicee introduced me to Vampire Diaries and Originals (which are both compelling studies in heroics and villainy, let me tell you). I’ve written tons of fanfiction, in addition to loads of original novels. I write in all genres, mostly because I get hooked on a good story, good characters, no matter the setting—though I do have a weakness for an epic story arc, flawed heroes and of course, powerful villains. Right now, I’m on the 5th book in my fairy tale retellings series. So far, I’ve retold “Beauty and the Beast,” “The Snow Queen,” “The Little Mermaid,”—and then I did a totally-original one about a Curse-Maker, from the POV of…yep, the villain! At the moment, I’m working on a retelling of the legend of King Arthur, called “Excalibor.” It’s a blast.

               As you might imagine, I am intrigued most of all by character. I enjoy reading about the great ones, and inhabiting the interesting ones in my own writing. Flat romantic interests and motivation-less villains drive me nuts. I’m fascinated by a character’s inner workings, his history, his motivation, his mannerisms, his relationships, his skills, his style, the way he presents himself to the world. My brother and I love analyzing plot holes and devices and flaws and symbolism and insights. (Our after-movie discussions can get very animated, and last for hours.)

               Often, we find ourselves yelling things at the Hero on the screen like “For crying out loud, don’t do that! Don’t go in there! Stop wasting your time! Watch out—don’t you know what’s in there?” We easily see the choices that the Hero makes that are flawed, impulsive, or just plain stupid.

               But very rarely do we notice such things about the Villain. A good one, anyway.

               The Villain takes us by surprise. He startles us. He’s two steps ahead. He already has the device, he’s laid the trap, he’s captured the girlfriend, he’s destroyed the evidence. (Cancer Man in X-Files makes me absolutely want to scream because of this stuff.)

               Why is that? How did he know? How is he doing this?? It drives us crazy—and yet, we reluctantly have to admire the greats for being such awesome masterminds.

               So…how are the Villains so successful? Sure, we could shrug it off and say, “Well, he’s a super-genius, what do you expect?” But that’s too easy, and frankly, it’s doing a great disservice to our Evil Neighborhood Menace. In fact, with everything we see, and with the Hero making such rash and stupid decisions, oftentimes it’s a wonder that the Hero even lives, let alone triumphs in the end.

               And actually, in real life, that’s often true. The Hero does die or fail, and the Villain lives and prospers. Why?

               What is it that the Villain is doing that the Hero is not doing, which makes him successful? Again, the easy and lazy answer is “He kills people to get what he wants, he lies, he steals.” Okay, sure. What you’re describing is a garden-variety thug. Somebody who gets caught in Spiderman’s webs every weekend.

You are not describing a Super-Villain.

There’s something about a Super-Villain—a really great one—that keeps him in the game, that makes him a serious threat to the Hero, even after being beaten over and over again. What is it about Lex Luthor—who has no powers—that keeps him alive, and makes him a continuous, serious threat against Superman, the most powerful being on the planet?

How is it that a Villain keeps coming back, when similar failures and losses would crush a Hero and send him home forever, never again to don the super suit?

Could it be that a Villain’s methods, his mindset, his approach, are vastly different from a Hero’s?

And, if a Hero could learn to take these qualities and mesh them with his own already-existing awesomeness, could he perhaps avoid a devastating loss, a crushing defeat?

Is that…in fact…what does make the Hero succeed in the end??

That’s what this book is about. Examining what truly is awesome about a great Villain, and showing YOU how you can put those qualities to use in your own life to do a great deal of good, instead of great evil.

Be a great Hero. Take a few tips from the Villains.

-Alydia Rackham

         P.S. I’m going to refer to both the Hero and Villain in this book as “he.” I’m doing that because it’s waaay easier than saying “he or she” all the time. Not because I don’t believe that women can be awesome Heroes, or terribly wicked Villains.

Because I totally do.

 Chapter One

What Makes A Hero or a Villain?

                 So, what is it that makes a person a Hero, instead of a Villain? We’re talking the foundation, here. What are the qualities he or she possesses deep down inside that distinguish, that draw the line, that clearly state to the world: “Nope, this is a good guy, this is a bad guy��? This can be confusing. Especially when we look at two characters, say Loki and Bucky Barnes. Both of them have been all over the map with both good and evil deeds. Both have been called Villains, and both could be Heroes.

               What is it that makes us decide where someone stands?

               I would say that it all comes down to one thing: CHOICES.

               It can’t be anything else. You can’t say it’s kindness, or love, gentleness, trust, honesty, bravery, self-sacrifice, or self-respect. Many Heroes and Villains alike struggle with self-respect. Many Villains sacrifice themselves for a person, or a cause. Villains are almost always exceptionally brave. Villains probably are honest with at least one person, or have been in the past. They also have trusted someone, been gentle with someone or something. Most certainly, the best Villains have loved very, very deeply, and tried their best to be kind to that person or animal.

               However, something went wrong. Very wrong. And with every Villain, it can be traced back to Choice.

               Sometimes, it’s a single choice. Many times, it’s several choices in a row. And eventually, they all decide that “the ends justify the means.” They opt for self-preservation, for the removal of liberty for other people, for the arrogant assertion of their own will. Over and over again, until it poisons them.

               A Hero is someone who does not do this. Who chooses, even if it is wrenchingly difficult, to stand by what is right, no matter the consequences. No matter if he loses everything. He will not betray his honor. Even if no one else would see or know—he would know. And he will not do it.

               In the end, this is what makes the Hero stronger than a Villain. The climax, and the defeat of the Villain, comes when the Villain’s weaknesses are exposed, and the Hero takes all his own strengths, combines them with the strengths of the Villain, and declares victory.

               A Hero guards his or her good conscience fiercely. It’s pretty well summed up in this quote from Captain America:

               “Whatever happens tomorrow, you must promise me one thing. That you will stay who you are: not a perfect soldier, but a good man.”  

 Chapter Two

Good Guys Can Be Stupid

                 We all know it’s true. When we’re in the movie theatre, we mutter under our breath, shake our heads.

When we’re at home, we scream at the TV.

               “Nooooo! What are you thinking? Don’t go that way, go the other way!”

               “You moron, don’t go off by yourself! Never leave the group! Especially in the dark!”

               “What, you jumped in there but you had no way of getting out?”

               “Don’t ignore her calls, she’s trying to save your life!”

               Yep, we’ve all been there. So what are some bad traits that Heroes tend to display that we ought to try to avoid ourselves?

  Stupid Impulsiveness

               Sure, impulsiveness can be good on a date, or at a restaurant trying some new dish.

It’s not good when you’re, I dunno, jumping off a ten story building. Following a noise into a dark forest. Or deciding to stop a bank robbery two days after you discovered your powers. Bad planning, or none at all. Not even thinking about what could happen in the next five minutes, let alone preparing for it.

For us regular folks, this can be translated into deciding to go for a drive in the snow with no 4-wheel drive, jumping off something that’s too high, going on a trip without enough money, walking down a dark alley in New York City…

               Yeah, you get the idea.

Not Keeping Family and Friends in the Loop

               We’ve seen it a lot: Heroes thinking they need to conquer alone—deal with all their problems, and protect their family members. However, all that ends up causing is major trouble. Sometimes life-threatening, sometimes not, but it’s never good. One that comes to mind is Elizabeth Bennet in Pride and Prejudice. If she had told her sisters about what was going on with Darcy, and especially the drama with Mr. Wickham, she might have saved her sister Lydia from being entrapped by the Villain. Pretty much every single story about a superhero contains this type of lament: “If I had only just told them the truth!”  

               Heroes fall into the trap of thinking that they’re protecting their loved ones by keeping secrets. By not trusting their friends or their family with what’s going on in their lives. When in fact, this only puts their loved ones in danger, and puts serious stress and pressure on the Hero, which can lead to exhaustion, panic, stretched resources, missed opportunities, and giving the loved ones the feeling that they’re being neglected and forgotten.

  Discouragement

           So many times, the Hero just doesn’t have the tools to do what he needs to do. He’s isolated himself, he’s gone without sleep, he’s fighting an uphill battle every day. And then, one major thing goes the wrong way, and he’s broken. He collapses, he throws things, he cries, he’s in despair. He thinks there’s no possible way for him to do this, to keep going.

               He dwells on the failure. It almost swallows him. He loses all confidence, all belief in himself. He might even lose faith in the cause itself, in the people and things he’s been fighting so hard for. And if someone doesn’t come along and convince him otherwise, he’ll never put on that Hero cape again, or pick up that shield, or that sword.

Read this book: https://www.amazon.com/How-Hero-Like-Villain-Villainous-ebook/dp/B07NMVGCHP/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=how+to+be+a+hero+like+a+villain+alydia+rackham&qid=1572901986&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

[joannalannister]

What do you think it is about ASoIaF that inspires people to the extent that we see in the fandom? I mean, there are tons of incredible people like you analyzing writing for it; you have websites and podcasts and essays written and complex theories and whole books published devoted wholly to the series. I have never seen this level of devotion before. It's incredible, but there are so many amazing books out there; why these books?

Hi! Well, to be fair, I think there are a number of other SF/F franchises that are as popular, if not more popular, than ASOIAF, and that inspire this same kind of devotion. But why ASOIAF? idk why anyone else feels the way they feel, but I can tell you why I love ASOIAF. GRRM wrote in one of the autobiographical sections of Dreamsongs:

By the time we got to Weathertop, Tolkien had me. ‘Gil-Galad was an elven king,’ Sam Gamgee recited, ‘of him the harpers sadly sing.’ A chill went through me, such as Conan and Kull had never evoked.

I knew exactly what GRRM was talking about, because I’ve felt it too:

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

There’s poetry in GRRM’s writing, there’s rhythm and flow and a sorrow that makes me ache:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

That’s the thing about ASOIAF – GRRM makes you feel it. (How many anecdotes have you read of people throwing their books across the room in rage and horror and despair after the Red Wedding? I’ve read quite a few.) GRRM is able to inspire such strong emotion in me. 

I was saying earlier today how I don’t really have any other fandom besides ASOIAF; I just don’t care. Like, all y’all talk about how easily y’all fall into ~feelings~ and characters and ships, but that’s not me. I watch or read the thing, I’m entertained for a while, it’s fine, and then it’s over; that’s it. (Honestly, some of y’all have wanted me to get into your other fandoms and it’s not that I don’t want to have fun squeeing with y’all, but I don’t know how. idk how y’all care about so many books and tv shows and movies, idk how to care like that.)

So the remarkable thing about GRRM, at least for me, is that he makes me care. ASOIAF matters, because GRRM literally spends years on characterization and worldbuilding and themes, all while telling a damn good story. 

If you watch GOT, you can see the skeleton of GRRM’s story, all the plot points GRRM is trying to hit, but the meat of that story, which comes from characterization and themes, has been boiled away. The result is that there’s nothing left to sink my teeth into, nothing to savor. (I think GRRM would approve of my food metaphors.) GOT has no emotional resonance for me, whereas ASOIAF is all about the emotional journey we’re undertaking. I’ve referenced Stephen King before, and I’ll do it again - it’s not about the endgame, it’s how we get there. The journey, not the destination. That’s something ASOIAF stresses - it’s the journey that matters, because we’re all headed for the same destination, after all; valar morghulis. GOT hits plot points like an arrow to a target. GOT is about the destination; ASOIAF is about the journey. 

ASOIAF emphasizes themes that I love:

identity

choice

justice and vengeance, and the complex nature of each

heroes and villains and what does that even mean

moral ambiguity

human heart in conflict with itself

body as battleground

the horrors of war

the importance of family, and how family means different things to different people

love and hate

truth and falsehood

what does it mean to be a true knight

exiles, outsiders, underdogs

faded glory

life and death and decay and rebirth

Romanticism in the classical sense of the word

the long autumn

the weight of history, the people who came before and those who will follow after 

duty and honor, and how they can be in conflict

disillusionment

sacrifice

light and darkness

what is a monster

empathy versus dehumanization

freedom versus constraint (think of the anti-slavery narrative and how that is relevant throughout the story, in every pov)

HOPE (”MEN STILL SANG, EVEN IN THE MIDST OF BUTCHER AND FAMINE”!!!! SLAYS ME!!!)

a love and celebration of humanity

an exploration of the human condition and what it means to be human (“see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone"), of isolation and loneliness and *sigh, where are you twow and ados* reunions and fellowship

feminism

beauty, appearances, outer beauty vs inner beauty (GRRM’s love of BATB comes in here)

These are themes that transcend the fantasy genre, something “old and true” that speaks to us, that are timeless. 

And I love the motifs GRRM uses to convey these themes - towers, and swords, and bodies and body parts (the Hand of the King, hands, tongues, fingers, noses, genitals), and white knights and black brothers and shadows (living shadows!!!) and birds and the long seasons and gah, I love it all, I love how GRRM uses all of this kind of imagery to explore ASOIAF’s themes and ask deep questions and inspire such passionate thinking (just throw the words “jaime” and “hand” and “redemption” at the fandom if you don’t believe me about passionate arguments)

And I love the thesis of ASOIAF, to hold fast to your principles and to do the right thing, even when doing the right thing is hard and when you won’t be rewarded for it - to stand against dehumanization in all its forms. 

And the characters, the characters, the characters!! I honestly think GRRM spends years on these books because he puts his own blood, sweat, and tears into them to bring them to life, as if they were truly his own children. He works so hard on characterization. 

And sure, the major characters are great, but I’m thinking of the minor characters especially, the ones that, if ASOIAF were a 1990s tv series that ran for 10 seasons, these would be the characters that would appear for one episode. 

Take the Widow of the Waterfront in Volantis. She cut that slave tattoo out of her, she cut off her tears. “Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon.” It’s haunting. Why read fantasy, if not to meet people like the Widow, and Chataya, and Arianne, and everyone else? But GRRM makes meeting these people worthwhile, he makes them memorable, he makes them distinctive, and they all give ASOIAF such a rich flavor. 

And ok, I admit I’m definitely part of the classic Tolkien school of fantasy lit where you Must Have Maps. If I crack a new fantasy book and it has a detailed map, that is already +1 in my book, because it tells me two things: first, we’re going on An Adventure, and two, the author at least tried to worldbuild. 

Good worldbuilding is super important to me, and GRRM is a great worldbuilder.  There’s a sense of something waiting over the next hill, and the next, and the next. It’s someplace different, someplace full of wonder, someplace grander than the place I call home. The clothes are different, the customs are different, the flora and fauna are different, and I want to see it, hear it, smell it, touch it, taste it. And GRRM doesn’t let me down, tbh. Reading ASOIAF is a sensory feast. (And man ok, slightly off topic, but if y’all ever read The Armageddon Rag, GRRM can make you hear that shit, I mean, really hear it, GRRM is amazing.) In ASOIAF, you can feel the silk of the gown Viserys gives Dany, and you can smell the western market and flea bottom, and you can hear the men selling fresh rats on the streets of King’s Landing, and oh god, the drums, BOOM DOOM BOOM DOOM, of the Red Wedding, and the tinkling of Jinglebell’s sad little bells, and Patchface’s creepy song, and the taste of the weirwood paste, bitter and sweet and like the last kiss his mother ever gave him, oh god. (And do you know how many lemon-flavored deserts I’ve had, chasing after Sansa’s famous lemon cakes, let’s not talk about it.) 

Reading ASOIAF is like going through the wardrobe - what’s not to love? I want to go somewhere else, and GRRM delivers. Why read fantasy, if not to gaze up at new stars, and trace out new constellations, and marvel at the way humans everywhere try to push back the darkness by telling themselves stories, be it the story of Orion or of the Ice Dragon up there in the heavens. 

GRRM does such a good job on the worldbuilding that we can seriously have super lengthy academic discussions on politics and economics and warfare and geology and all that other stuff that people do in real life. 

But it’s not just the depth of the worldbuilding, cuz that wouldn’t be enough by itself. GRRM doesn’t just go through the motions, he’s not just hitting targets - he makes you earn it. For example, Stannis really wants to be King, and it’s not enough to just try to storm king’s landing. Why do you want to be King, Stannis? the books ask, and we find out it’s because he has a duty to the people, so he goes to the wall. What did it mean that Tyrion was Hand in ACOK, what did he accomplish, what did he learn, and will he be Hand again in a future book? What do those vows of knighthood mean, and is Brienne the only one true to them? What of Sam, failing to release the ravens at the right moment? When the time comes, will Sam fail again, or will he release the ravens at the critical moment next time, and how much more meaningful is it, when we saw fail the first time? 

In short, I’m devoted to it because GRRM’s devoted to it. He’s a master of his craft, and it shows. I’m only responding to it. 

(Honestly, he never should have allowed an adaptation until this was all over, and then he could have adapted the episodes himself. The best GOT episodes were the ones written by GRRM.) 

[badwasabi]

Writing Advice: Shut out shout-outs

Due to the subject matter, I included a larger-than-usual number of references in this one, just for fun. You probably won't find all eight, unless you happen to watch a certain podcast about a certain red-masked superhero and his nubile ginger sidekick partner.

Okay, so you're watching the latest Game of Thrones episode. There's tension, there's shouting, it's very dramatic, you're on the edge of your seat. What next? you think, shoveling popcorn into your mouth.

And suddenly the characters start acting out the "What?" scene from Pulp Fiction.

Your hand stops. Your brow furrows. You mouth hangs open.

This doesn't make sense. The writers just...gave up. They made no real effort to integrate the reference into Westeros. Where'd that paper bag come from? Why is the Mother of Dragons is pulling a Big Belly Burger out of it? What is this? 

I'll tell you what this is. Your hypothetical self has just encountered a bad Shout Out. 

Fanfics, especially by newbie writers, often have this classic blunder. You like Thing, you like Other Thing, you want to put them together like it's peanut butter/jelly time. Let me ask you a question; you might like a nice warm fire. You might like libraries. Would you start a nice, warm fire in the middle of a library? If I needed the insurance money. A public library. Oh. Then no. So you've added the gratuitous reference, you post the chapter, and go on your merry way. Some time later, your reader encounters the reference, and it stops them cold, completely breaking immersion. You were so worried about whether you could that you didn't ask yourself whether you should. One Mass Effect fanfic I read had the bad guys capture Garrus, hang him from a hook, and torture him. Normal enough, right? Well, it was a direct ripoff of the torture scenes from Firefly. Y'know, that "War Stories" episode. Was someone wearing Jayne's hat? Someone was, in fact, wearing Jayne's hat. In a certain Halo fanfic, one of the characters make a crack about how they hadn't seen incompetence like that since the Bush Administration of 21st century Earth. For those of you not familar with the setting, that's be like a  2016 character making a joke about some politican from 1466. Seriously, name someone from the 15th century. Christopher Columbus? Anyone else? Besides Queen Isabella? ...No. You see my point. I bought a cheap watch a year ago. Before the ants ate it*, it looked like a G-Shock. Except that it didn't have the logo, the backlight was more of a frontlight - a bad one - and none of the buttons did what the labels said they were supposed to. Shoehorning in a reference can be like that. It looks good, but the charade falls apart the second you take a closer look. A lot of shoehorned references come without the context that would make them "work" properly. It's not a big problem with individual lines, but when you have to bend the story's universe into a pretzel just to make the reference "fit", you should probably reconsider. And even individual lines can get tiresome if they're intrusive enough. Remember that ME fic I mentioned? The characters often reference popular Firefly lines. It wasn't just the one scene. Which brings me to my next point. References are a crutch, if you rely on them. And in case you're wondering, there's a difference between a pastiche or parody or satire...and an outright ripoff. Also, some works are light-hearted enough to have shedloads of references. Take Deadpool (any medium), Friendship is Magic, or Discworld. And they usually cut back on it when things get heavy, doc. Except Discord, of course, by definition. 

So how do I know when to use shout outs? The same way you get to Carnegie Hall; practice. Get constructive criticism from somewhere. Let readers tell you what works and what doesn't. Read it out loud. Ask yourself if the scene works for readers who don't get the reference. How would you fix the torture scene? Oh, that's easy. Dolores Umbridge. From Harry Potter? Yep. Wouldn't that just make the problem worse? Allow me to explain. Torture scenes are a dime a dozen. Torture scenes where the torturer has some sort of crazy philosophy are a dime a dozen. Religious conviction, punishment, intelligence gathering, Mengele knockoff, dime a dozen. You know what we don't see very often? What? Passive-aggressiveness. Think about it. Umbridge's core personality traits are cloying, syrupy sweetness over an absolute conviction that she's doing The Right Thing. This is a woman who created a brand-new way to torture people - her special quill - and used it on a child. The book said she looked like a toad, but in the films, Imelda Staunton's completely normal appearance is arguably worse. She looks like someone's mum or grandmum. And she's evil. Remember in the forest? The part where she may have been trying to kill Harry and Hermione, and she's still rationalizing? Imagine that with a torturer. She's levering your fingernails off with a scalpel, and still saying that it would really be so much easier if you would just cooperate. Do you think she enjoys hurting you? Why don't you just tell her what she needs to know? Brrr. But enough about my mother. So, in this case, remixing two references is better than using either of them alone. This has to be done well; if you had a generic torturer, but he's actually a woman wearing pink, that's not going to make much of a difference. In fact, it would be jarring for your readers, unless you're in a light-hearted work, or pink is an important color in your story. Maybe it's about "The Flamingo Killer", who always leaves their victims with a pink rose, or pink fibers have been found on the bodies, or something. Which brings me to the last piece of advice; good artists copy, great artists steal. Pretty sure I've heard that before. But what it doesn't say is that mediocre and bad artists also copy. So what's the difference between copying and stealing? Glad you asked, Timmy! Copying is imitating. Stealing is understanding, making it your own. It's the difference between tracing a piece of art and drawing it freehand. Wait. Isn't tracing really useful for learning how to draw? Yes, it is. To a certain point. Then it's better to strike out on your own. If you don't understand why something works, you can't really integrate it into your work. You won't be able to take the parts of it that work and leave the rest, you'll probably just keep ripping it off wholesale. If I may humblebrag; in my fic Ferris, the XCOM team decides that they're going to have to do something really dark. There's a regular soldier nearby, and he's horrified. He says he could never do that type of stuff. The XCOM trooper he's responding to says "That's the idea. We do it, so you don't have to." ...Is that...? Yep. The Nostalgia Critic's catchphrase. Altered and integrated. Now, if I had written "I fight aliens, so you don't have to," that would've been a lot more blatant. Did anyone notice? No one said anything, so...not as far as I know. Then what's the point? To increase the emotional impact of the scene. Instead of forcing a reference to a popular review show that would ruin the emotional impact of the scene. Executive summary: References and shout-outs can be fine, if used sparingly, or in a work where they fit the tone. If not, they'll cut the legs out from any drama you're trying to build. Try and understand why something you're trying to reference works, so you can alter it to fit the new context, instead of plopping it in your story like a scoop of chocolate ice cream on a cheesecake. What type of cheesecake? Boysenberry. Oooh! I love boysenberry pie! Good hunting, Jon PS: Let's talk about obtrusive fandom jokes. For example, take all the RWBY fics that substitute "Monty" for "God". If you don't know who Monty Oum was (creator of the series), it's just a weird joke or some kind of reference you don't get. If you do, then it's a fandom joke with worrying theological implications, since Ren was voiced by Monty. Does that make him Remnant's Jesus, or some kind of avatar of their Creator? Either road, it completely destroys the seriousness of a scene. Imagine if Frodo and Sam swore "by Tolkien", or Captain Picard by "Roddenberry", or Marvel characters by "Stan".

Actually, let's dig deep. You know all those Stan Lee cameos in the MCU? They all fit in even if you don't know who Lee is. You could replace Lee with a bunch of random actors, and with maybe one exception (Avengers), they all make sense. They're funny by necessity, because you can't do something like that without tongue in cheek. I can only remember one dramatic cameo, and that was in Incredible Hulk. The "Monty" joke doesn't have any of that. It can't be justified in the context of the series, unlike a bunch of random old guys throughout the universe who happen to look like Stan Lee. TL DR: If your fandom references don't fit unless your reader knows the context, change them or get rid of them. If you're trying to use an injoke in a serious scene, change it or get rid of it. * More precisely, the watchband. They'll eat anything rubber. 

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