#i understand the people who say that will's arc is about accepting that mike doesn't love him and moving on.

[transmascwillbyers]

So I was talking to one of my friends this morning about ST, and according to her, her brother (who's a fan of the show too) believes that Will's arc throughout the show revolves around helping Mike and El solves their problems as a couple. Not as in it's part of his arc, not as in it's something he needs to do to fulfill his arc, as in... that is his arc. Like, that's what he is meant to do, optimally, in the show, and byler being canon would directly contradict his "character development".

...I think we can conclusively agree that this is the worst Will take ever.

[miwiheroes]

Mike and El's conflict is not just about him not being able to say 'I love you.'

It's about the fact they just don't understand each other anymore. Even if he was truthful about loving her in the end, it doesn't matter. Their relationship's building blocks are still broken. Here's why:

"I guess I just don't really understand."

"I mean, you've seen it, I've been bullied my entire life."

"I know what it's like."

"I understand"

"Just please don't tell the others okay? They won't understand."

"Eleven would. She always did."

"No. You don't."

"What don't I understand?"

"I am different." "You think I'm a monster too."

I really don't think anyone truly realises what the Mike and El fight in season 4 does to their relationship. Yes, it is basically all about how El tells Mike that he isn't loving her in the way that she needs, and that Mike just thinks of her as his superhero rather than a human being. However, this is a total break down in their relationship as a whole.

Their whole relationship was built in season 1 and 2 on a certain type of shared trauma, attachment to the person who gave you care, fascination and most of all, understanding. Mike was attached to her in season 2 and season 1 and had the first inkling that he might have liked her because he thought, 'finally someone who understands me'.

That understanding is gone. I repeat, it is gone. In this scene, with the broken diorama, it is established that the fundamental building blocks of their relationship too, are broken.

Many people think that by the end of season 4, Milkvan is completely fixed. Because Mike said 'I love you' and y'know what, let's say he meant everything he said! What if he did mean that he loved her? (even though that's not the case but walk with me here).

That still doesn't resolve everything.

Wait. But that was their only problem, right? That was all their argument was about, right?

Wrong. Their argument was also about El not understanding Mike, Mike not understanding El. And this part isn't fixed. Mike still calls her a superhero in his speech even if he is truthful, he still makes her feel like she's not a human being.

But:

"You make [me] feel like [I'm] not a mistake at all. Like [I'm] better for being different. And that gives [me] the courage to fight on."

Mike likes the words that Will says, and if he believes the lies that he's telling him, then that means he also likes having that sense of understanding between him and El. But in reality, it's not there. He feels warmth for feeling like he's being understood/ he understands someone else, but it's not El. It's Will.

"I am different. I do not belong." vs. "You make [me] feel like [I'm] better for being different."

When Mike finds out that it's not El that he makes feel like she's not a mistake, and that it's actually Will, he's gonna have a lot of questioning to do. Because, as Finn said:

"There's probably a mutual understanding and acceptance there, I think." (in relation to someone asking about mike's feelings here)

Mike will find that understanding he craves so much in a relationship. Will already believes that Mike understands him and makes him feel like he's not a mistake. Mike will find that understanding with Will, because it's mutual.

Uh so yeah, this is truly why I think for Mike's arc and El's arc, it makes no sense for them to be endgame, because they simply don't understand each other. But it's not anyone's fault.

[gayofthefae]

Do you ever think about how these are the only times he's allowed himself to take up space. One of them got many people including Bob killed and almost got him killed, only one is joy and it immediately caused conflict, and both times he allowed himself to be angry he later either dropped it completely or apologized himself, saying he "deserved it".

It's no wonder he doesn't take up space. Like Jonathan said, he's good at hiding. That isn't just physical; it means making yourself small too. Lonnie says "that boy never was very good at taking care of himself" so we know he didn't ever stand up to him.

No wonder he doesn't allow himself to want and enjoy things, look what happened last time.

No wonder he doesn't stand up for himself, look what happened last time.

That's the thing about how trauma symptoms develop and are reinforced: they make. sense. They are successful and the correct response to the situation to get you as safe as possible, they just spill over into situations they aren't needed in and it can be hard to decipher. Will was right to make himself small with his father. And he was right to run away from the mind flayer. But what happened with Mike and Lucas was a momentary lapse in their judgment, not a reinforcement of him taking up space being a bad thing.

Will needs to be with Mike next season because he doesn't just need to admit that he wants things, he needs to allow himself to actually want them. For a conceptual "gay character" story arc, coming out might be the ending, so I understand why it makes sense to you surface level. But he isn't conceptual; he is a person whose nuanced life experience and trauma and personality outside his queerness impact how he reacts to said queerness. In many ways, him being gay is just a narrative opportunity to demonstrate his arc onto of allowing himself to take up space. To love LOUDLY and without shame - because acceptance is still quiet -, to get ANGRY and stand by it, to take. up. space. As a queer person, as a boy who deep down still hears those words shouted in his ears every time he picks up a crayon, and as a boy whose body was stolen from him. He deserves for that body to take up space.

[wheelerpilled]

'forced conformity is killing the kids'

Mike Wheeler ST5 Theory/analysis

So we've all seen the new BTS of Finn Wolfhard on the set of Stranger Things dropped and OH MY GOD. THE DUALITY FROM LAST SEASON.

I have to TRY write about it ATLEAST...because wow I have a lot of potential thoughts, sorry it's once again unstructured, messy, and repetitive but stay with me please!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen ALOT of people happy we're getting s1-2 Mike hair back but guys .....it's not a good thing!!!!!!!!!! Mike is going THROUGH IT.

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In Season 4 it's acknowledged that Mike is finally coming into his own a bit, Eddie says he was wearing 'whatever his mom bought him' when he first came to highschool, but in episode 1 when we see him for the first time in S4, he's clearly been influenced by Eddie and has figured out what style he likes and what he's interested in, he's in a DND club, he's comfortable being known as an uncool nerd, he's growing his hair out (yes I DO believe it's because he idolised Eddie, I have more to say about that in a second)

basically: his hair and his outfits, aswell as pretty much the way he acts in Hawkins (NOT California- he goes back to pretending to be something else) in S4 represents the ideology non-conformity and his sense freedom in this new persona

he doesn't feel lost in highschool anymore, he's doing what he likes with his friends (DnD) and he's proudly wearing his hellfire shirt around school/Hawkins, basically, he's accepting that it's okay to enjoy 'different' things that aren't considered the norm, and it makes him happy, he feels comfortable!

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But now in Season 5, from the pictures we've seen, it looks like he's fully reverted back into his shell, I guess I understand why tbh I don't blame him:

he comes back to Hawkins after everything and everyone believes he's in a satanic cult- townspeople probably treat him badly and Jason's team mates probably blame Eddie and the rest of hellfire for Jason's 'disappearance' (death). They directly connect him with all the horrible things that have happened to Hawkins as of late

...which is probably what the BTS of them walking towards Mike are about, they probably keep harassing him no matter how he acts and Mike just wants them to leave him alone, let's face it:

High school has probably gone full circle back to middle school for Mike and he's getting bullied/mistreated again. So he feels his only option is to remove himself from Hellfire and become 'normal'.

Hellfire might maybe even be blamed for the gates being opened. Last we heard, the townspeople were hunting down Eddie and the rest of hellfire, and the graffiti on Eddie's grave in the S5 pics shows that he's still very much hated.

Mike probably got harassed by multiple people who don't believe Eddie's dead, or believe Mike was in on it and are out looking for him, or think Hellfire contributed to some satanic ritual causing the 'earthquake' and thus Mike is also a target and it's dangerous for him.

So I think part of the style change and haircut is due to THAT, he doesn't wear his hellfire shirt anymore because he doesn't want any affiliation with the club.

As Finn Wolfhard has said in previous interviews 'mikes just trying to act as normal as possible' so by seperating himself from Eddie/Hellfire and becoming more conventionally 'normal' he won't be treated like an outcast.

He won't be assaulted, bullied, blamed, or worse if he conforms. He has a greater chance of everything becoming better/easier while living in Hawkins if he does this, he might have even given up DnD aswell- so yeah he's gonna be pretty MISERABLE in season 5

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Alot of people wanted to see his reaction to Eddie's death, I think we'll definitely be seeing the lingering after effects of it, and alot of Mike's arc will kick off because of the aftermath of the vilification of Hellfire.

Only few people know that Eddie died to try protect Hawkins, Eddie was a role model for Dustin and Mike, but they're grieving him in COMPLETELY different ways

Dustin decides to honour him by taking up a similar style and proudly wearing his hellfire shirt, and is also probably trying to sway the town's opinion on Eddie and prove him innocent.

....But Mike seemingly decides that he DOESNT want to end up like Eddie anymore: dead and hated, known as a satanic freak.

Someone he idolised is now deceased, he doesn't know how to properly handle that fact, it's intimidating that someone he looked up to do much could be so hated, and in turn has caused the reaction from Mike that is basically 'if my idol is treated as such a horrible outcast, and I wanted to follow in his footsteps, where would that leave me?' he's feeling lost and hopeless, especially with the state Hawkins is in, so he probably decides the best thing to do is just blend in. Be normal.

It probably scares him that even merely his interest in DnD and all these other factors immediately make him a target, as far as townspeople believe- Mike is one of the kids who was close with a brutal serial killer, they probably think he's just as 'messed up as Eddie the freak was' for staying friends with someone who'd do such horrible things

I think Mike just wants to hide as much as he can right now, he has ALOT on his plate and doesn't need the rest of the town out to get him.

so if anyone asks: he'll probably say things like 'I didn't really know Eddie! I would never join a cult like that, I didn't know!' or something to try seperate his name from the hellfire club.

Mike will end up picking protecting himself and hiding his true identity and values/traits rather then living exposed and vulnerable; yet true to what he actually believes is right....And that is the opposite of what Dustin is doing,

Dustin is a proud hellfire member and friend of Eddie, he's picking what he thinks is right over self-preservation from the town, he's still wearing his battered shirt, now HE'S the one growing his hair out, he still adores Eddie and misses him (so does Mike probably, but he feels he CANT outwardly publicly show support or stand up for him)

I do wonder if this will cause some sort of tension between Dustin and Mike, because Dustin is doing the opposite and becoming more like Eddie instead of distancing himself from the hellfire name, he might feel betrayed that Mike 'gave up' on Hellfire, and maybe accuse him of not even caring about Eddie or his death?? Idk!!!!!!!!!! I feel like Dustin will also be going through it this season 😭😭😭

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I do also think Mike will try to be clinging alot to El this season (I mean, before they inevitably break up which I believe will probably happen kinda early on if it actually happens at all)

this is also because just the idea of having a girlfriend corresponds to his idea of conformity and being 'normal'. He just wants to be a normal guy, his life is nothing out for the ordinary, he's not interested in satanic things like dnd and hellfire, he's just a normal person. A normal person who is PROBABLY a target of Vecna in season 5 😓

I believe his arc for this season will be trying to breakout of these notions of conformity in exchange for things he actually likes and is interested in, we saw him sort of branching out in season 4, but I think THIS time it's happening for real, and he'll end up fully embracing his own views and interests after some sort of emotional arc-which will also probably be part of the M*lev*n break up (not censored because I'm against them/hate them I just don't wanna clog the tag for others 😭😭) OR set off by the breakup

Throughout season 1 he was told he liked El, or others assumed it, so I think he assumed it aswell, they just never broke up because El ALSO thinks having a boyfriend is normal and expected, and because Mike was the boy she was closest to she assumed it was romantic feelings (and he kissed her in S1 which probably contributed to her assuming they were romantic feelings)

Alot of the people around her are also in relationships, and she watched alot of TV with happy romantic couples so she thinks it's more normal to HAVE a boyfriend then to NOT have one, I think Mike and El kinda stayed together because they think they're SUPPOSED to by these social standards,

They obviously care about each other alot, and mistook it as reasons to just stay together, she wants to be a normal girl because only being a superhero isnt good for her, she needs to be 'Jane Hopper' and not '011'. I do think she definitely needs to be single for awhile and find herself, even if her and Mike are to be endgame, she NEEDS at least some time to gain some experiences outside of living her life as a superhero, (Mike also needs character development outside of being 'Els Boyfriend's)

Which is why it was vital that her time with max in S3 existed, so El could realise her value and that there is a life outside having a boyfriend- I think Mike needs a similar moment aswell, a wake-up call of sorts where he can take a step back and consider maybe rather than letting society dictate his actions, he makes decisions for what he wants for himself ('we make our own rules')

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If m*lev*n is endgame then sure that's great for them, but I genuinely don't know what big character arc could be in store for Mike that doesn't involve a breakup and themes of non-conforming, it doesn't even have to involve Byler endgame at all (although I AM a byler truther)

I think Mike learning that it's okay to let go of that romantic relationship if he doesn't feel that way anymore is a big step for his character, or atleast taking a break so he can work on himself, anything along those lines of actual development on himself rather then on his relationship- El and Mike have been romantically paired from the start, he needs to learn that it's OKAY to breakup with someone if thats what he feels is right, (side note: I DO believe El would/will be the one to breakup with him 😭)

I don't think he realises that he'll be able to stay friends with El, it's not 'shes my girlfriend or else she'll hate me for breaking up with her. No other options'

he doesn't want to lose her because he cares about her but he can't find a way to balance that romantic relationship alongside his other friendships. So I think for his character to develop they have to breakup, even temporarily, but obviously that's only my opinion if M*lev*n is endgame then oh well, it's endgame, but I think they would be a really awesome platonic duo and I'd like their relationship alot more if it was that way

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I think later in the season he'll realise that living this way not actually what he wants, and he doesn't want to give up who he is, or pretend to be something he's not- because he IS a nerd who likes DnD, and he does support Eddie, he cared alot about him because he idolised him, and i think season 5 is about him learning that that's okay and he doesn't have to feel so much pressure to conform by societal standards, bro needs a better grief process, forced conformity GOT HIS ASS 😭😭😭

What I'm trying to say is: all of this, and his new look is a safety net of sorts, he's still pretending to be something he's not because he feels he HAS to, otherwise it's dangerous for him in Hawkins because of hellfires reputation, but he's also acting this way because of other factors that I haven't really thought through yet LMAO

I believe season 5 will probably be him accepting those things about himself and embracing it, maybe also undoing his emotional repression along the way, I guess I would describe it as coming of age and I think if it's handled well it could be really beautiful in a way

OH MY GOD I RAMBLED SO MUCH AND IT ISNT EVEN A SOLID THEORY JUST A COLLECTION OF THOUGHTS😭

Sorry that was long and repetitive but uhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah..........anyways Mike Wheeler ily keep ur head up king please don't die in S5‼️‼️ stay safe‼️‼️

[itsmyfandomandilikeit]

What exactly is the deal with T'Lyn?

So now that T'Lyn is a recurring character in Lower Decks, we're getting a lot more of her character, motivations, and personality. But from the getgo, the show has introduced her as being a nonstandard Vulcan.

Spoilers for Lower Decks 4x03 and all of Star Trek Enterprise below the cut.

T'Lyn has been kicked out of the Vulcan Science Directorate for being too much of a wild card, and she wants to get back in. This is her stated motivation for this season.

However, she is still steadfastly attached to her individuality. She refuses to stop using phrases like "I believe" when justifying her scientific claims, and she wears a headband, which no other Vulcan wears. On the Cerritos, she openly displays empathy, even if in her own way, and serves as a pivotal motivator for Boimler in this week's episode. She does so by easily and immediately understanding his perspective and responding to his current state of mind.

She doesn't appear to know of a reason why she's different from other Vulcans, at least in a significant way. She believes that her dismissal was unjust and she should be allowed back into the VSD.

For one, I think it's obvious that T'Lyn's arc will result in her giving up on returning to the Vulcan Science Directorate. She has to accept herself as an individual separate from the collective and realize that her personal value is illogically squashed if she can't use her unique judgment in the line of duty.

But, secondly, I believe it will be revealed that T'Lyn is the great granddaughter of T'pol and Trip Tucker.

Mike McMahon (McMahan?) has stated that he'd love to write for T'pol. There has been enormous interest from the fandom and creatorship as a whole in revisiting the character, both for the sake of her popularity and to canonize the post-Enterprise books which retcon the main series' pointlessly depressing ending. However, Jolene Blalock has retired from acting, and it doesn't look at all trivial to talk her into coming back. The idea has been floated to ask her to record a few lines for Lower Decks rather than fly her out to dress her up to be in Strange New Worlds, if an appearance can be made at all.

I think T'Lyn is a way around this whole problem. We've got a new, cool Vulcan character. She's smart as a whip, cool under pressure, and she's incredibly empathetic in a way that confronts people's feelings with gentle logic.

Her arc about breaking away from the Vulcan Science Directorate mirrors T'pol's arc far more than, say, Spock, who is a human-Vulcan hybrid but whose arc explores completely different themes.

T'Lyn is obviously a capable science officer, but what sets her apart is her empathy and her steadfast belief in her own feelings. I think, in the absence of another explanation such as a nonstandard upbringing (which I don't think has been hinted) this can be explained by her being 1/8 human. Hell, 1/8 made up of an incredibly kind and caring human who was so kind and caring he ended up in a situation where this is a plausible outcome.

Finally, one of ENT's most beloved episodes is Carbon Creek, which takes place 200 years earlier and is about T'pol's great grandmother. I think it would be sweet if T'Lyn's arc is mirroring that situation, 200 years later.

Whether or not I'm right, I'm loving T'Lyn and I'm loving the fact that she's here so much more this season. I'm excited to see where this goes.

[castlebyersafterdark]

honestly, the fact that noah is a sore loser is for me the no.1 byler endgame evidence hahahah

niche i guess unless you actually follow or pay attention to him, so ofc anyone who blindly hates him wouldnt know. but that boy? THAT boy? who gets angry losing some stupid game? is THIS happy with s5? and you think will isn't getting served some freshly squeezed mike wheeler for keepsies for LIFEEEE? bitch, come on. get. real.

😆 (i mean ofc he would still be obliged to do the job but he wouldnt be making such a fuss of it all, if he didnt like it. ya know. kinda like... dont say it... millie)

This is a good point!!! I honestly honestly think that Noah wouldn't do us all dirty like this, going online on his little bedside tiktok chat seshes acknowledging Byler so much and being giddy about it if his baby, his pride and joy William Byers wasn't getting the boy. That would be really weird especially as a young gay guy who understands fandom? Noah "I'm the happiest I've ever been" and the double triple quadruple meaning to that admission. He's gotta be winning this thing!! He's getting the perfect happy ending. He and Finn have said the show ends perfectly, their characters get a happy ending - especially Will. WHAT other ending is fitting for Will to be honest??? Oh, he's alive and the evil is defeated. Yall, that applies to any character.

Will is in love. Will's gotta get his love reciprocated to have a satisfying arc completion, because there's something to root for there. YES - the supernatural, the upside down, Henry's whole deal, and he's got a more major role in that than others... but defeating Vecna and restoring peace to Hawkins is also the goal of every single other main character in the series. There are individual motivations as well for everyone. WHAT is Will's secondary arc? And it's not "oh, he's gonna come out and everyone will accept him." The thing is at this point in the show, not that his coming out story isn't important - but by means of knowing the characters, the most important ones in his life are Joyce and Jonathan and one of those people already accepted him. No one watching thinks for a second Joyce is an emotional roadblock. Who is??? Mike. Accpeting him and reciprocating him. Because Will doesn't believe it. Will doesn't believe he'll have romantic love. But we're to root for him now. So, we're intended to root for Byler.

Our fond little sore loser has nothing to worry about. He's raking in the protagonist love interest payoff glow up. He's excited and thrilled and invested in the story and the cast surrounding him. Not saying it too deeply either but we know what we're implying here with someone not seemingly so into season 5 and the diminished hype. Wonder why...

[strangertheories]

On Reddit there is a post going around about Vecna potentially outing Will (in fairness most replies disagree) and I really don't like that idea. Beyond Noah saying Will is going to have a heartfelt coming out in a TikTok comment back in July, I think this wouldn't happen for two main reasons.

Firstly, it's a dumb move on Vecna's part. Vecna isolates the people he targets by making them feel as if everyone will reject them and not love them if they knew who they really were. He does this both to target people like Max (trying to convince her to think that she should just accept her fate) and to try and persuade Eleven over to his side (no one will understand so just join the dark side). Will's friends and family will be supportive of him coming out, but Will doesn't know that they feel that way. Outing him would only mean he'd get support and love from those around him and be able to stop hating himself and would remove the biggest weapon Vecna has against Will.

But beyond that, it's just bad from a storytelling perspective. Will's character arc starts with Jonathan telling him it's ok to be himself and through the seasons we see him struggling with this idea. He wants to reclaim his childhood but his friends are growing up without him. He feels ashamed for liking guys but Mike makes him feel like he's not a mistake at all. The conclusion to this arc is not a magical gunky man outing him to his friends and family, it's Will finally being able to accept himself. And maybe it wouldn't work like this in real life but Will is a character and the best idea for his character.

[pinkeoni]

Willing to be controversial but I do not think Mike's family relationship or coming out to them is a point the show sees as important. I feel like that is more of Will's arc if anything due to how it has been emphasized throughout the seasons. And I know it is like a popular take but I don't think the show will add a homophobia plotline to Mike's character. I think he's just gonna come out to Karen, and Karen will be understanding and Ted will not give a shit.

Where is that Reddit comment that says “Oh you poked the bear”?

Since this tends to be a bit if a touchy subject for some, I wanna try to answer in as nuanced a way as possible. And since this is kind of an exhausted topic, I’ll put it under a cut.

So starting with whether or not Mike is going to come out—

At this moment in time, I think Mike is much farther from being ready to have a coming out moment than Will is. Could it still happen? It could, and at that point it would depend on how the show handles it. I would honestly really appreciate a coming out scene, but I don’t think it’s a necessity for Mike’s story to be satisfactory. Mike is still gay even if it’s not explicitly stated. Furthermore, Mike can still reach a state of self acceptance without telling other people, it’s so long as he accepts it for himself that is the important thing.

As for the family thing...

I think it would be inaccurate of me to say that Mike's family and home life doesn't effect Mike. Of course it does, in the way that it does every character. And considering how much of a presence the Wheeler family seems to have had in every season, it would be stupid of me to say that they won't have an appearance or that they won't be connected to Mike's arc.

So I think that Mike's family relationship will be there, and it'll have value in the same way that everything in the show has value, big or small, however I don't think it's false of me to say that Will's family relationship is probably going to be more of a central focus.

This isn't me comparing traumas (which is a thing that can and does happen) or saying that Mike's experiences aren't important, but looking at how they function in this story, especially with the knowledge that Will is going to be a major focus next season, then it's reasonable to assume that the Byers family is probably going to be more at the center than the Wheelers.

There's also a lot more unresolved with the Byers family ie Lonnie and his involvement, and yes I am still so confident that he is coming back, if not just from the fact that Jonathan keeps bringing him up in every season. There's also a lot of mystery surrounding Lonnie, whereas with the Wheelers most of it is all there on the table.

My take on the Wheelers is that they are complicated. Perfect parents? No. Abusive? No. I'm not really gonna state where I stand on the "neglectful" debate as I feel like that word exists on a sliding scale that changes depending on who is using it. I was talking about it with Jo @wheelersboy and we agreed that the biggest problem with the Wheelers is that they are passive conformists, which I talk a little bit about in my AIDS post. They conform passively and have the privilege to not have to confront the consequences behind it. When they are at the town hall meet and come face-to-face with the extreme end of conformity, it's a huge smack in the face for them. By the end of the season, they begin to slowly de-conform.

I think that Mike’s core conflict has to do with his feelings of worthlessness and insecurity, and it will end with him realizing his worth for exactly who he is. I think this is absolutely influenced by his exterior environment, but ultimately it will be up to Mike himself to solve this conflict.

[cringengl]

I've heard people who ship m*leven say that bylers are weird because we preach El's independence but believe Will should end up with Mike, which is supposedly hypocritical because why aren't we showing the same energy towards Will and saying that he should be the independent one (because m*leven is supposed to be endgame and since we are so intent on how amazing El would be single, why is Will so different)???

Maybe it's because Will and El are different people with different narrative arcs???

El's arc is so much more about finding herself, which is why she should have the freedom to do that without a failing relationship to nurse back to health.

We see this in every season, whether it's El finally being able to dress feminine in s1, finding her long lost sister in s2, her ENTIRE arc with Max in s3 and her accepting that she's not the monster in s4.

HOWEVER, Will already knows who he is, his arc is about accepting himself.

From s1 he is unapologetically himself. He is bullied for his bright clothes, it's suggested that he's known he's gay for a long time, in s3 he is the only one who doesn't care about the bullshit of growing up and is more happy being his usual nerdy self and of course in s4 it's obvious he knows who he is (Alan Turing presentation and so much more lol). He can't even lie to Mike in s1 ep1.

The one time he does lie is when he gives the painting to Mike and it's why Jonathan's talk with Will is so important.

Will deserves to have his queer story line finished on a happy note because that's that's Stranger Things is about, finding hope in adversity and destroying social norms.

Because Will's story ending happily isn't him getting rejected by the love of his life, or him dating some random dude (there are going to be no new characters introduced in s5 and there's no one else for Will to date that we already know) who won't understand Will the way Mike does.

Will deserves a boyfriend that pays attention to him like Mike does and protects him like Mike does (even if Will is strong enough on his own) and works on being a better best friend to him.

Because what better way for Will to accept himself than Mike understanding and reciprocating his love, showing Will that his love was never a mistake, that he's not a mistake.

Well what about Mike, doesn't he get a say in this?? I could go on a whole Mike's arc analysis spree, but since this post is about Will and El, I'll keep it short. I think he already has had his say...

[lupon]

have you ever considered that vecna can, and probably will, target them both and the rest of the entire crew? why do you ship byler if you don't think there are signs mike is queer? if you hate mike so much you're so angry at people theorising about a compelling story that involves him, just say so

Nowhere did I suggest I hate Mike. I hate the way people have been characterizing him lately and basically give him the same story as Will. This is something that's been bothering me for months and I only said something because I thought I finally found someone who understood where I was coming from. It's so invalidating to Will's character and disingenuous to Mike's to make their stories basically exactly the same.

Saying Mike's aware of his sexuality, realized his feelings for Will between s3 and s4, struggles with wondering if Will will accept him is WILL'S STORY. And I'm getting so sick of seeing it every single time I browse my tl.

It feels like everyone's so caught up in Mike liking Will they lose sight of everything else about him. Mike's struggles are so different from Will's, and that's a good thing. I wouldn't want them to be the same. I want them to be queer in their own way and have their own thoughts/feeling about their sexuality. I don't want Mike's story to be Will's and I can't understand why everyone else seems like they do.

Mike went his whole life fully believing he was straight. And I don't see any solid evidence proving otherwise. Mike's struggle is coming to accept that he isn't who he thought he was. He's been avoiding and fighting his feelings for a long time now. His story is about how fighting who you are will only make you unhappy, and even though it's an incredibly scary thing to do, accepting your true feelings will ultimately make you happier.

Mike and Will's stories are different because they have different morals. While Mike's is more focused on self-acceptance after being in denial, Will's leans more toward self-love after being abused for his whole life. Will has to fight how much he's internalized everything people have said about him. Will has already had to face the people who hate him for who he is. Mike hasn't experienced homophobic bullying. He doesn't have nearly the same level of internalized homophobia as Will.

And that's what irks me the most is when people will try and say Mike's story revolves around internalized homophobia and that Vecna is going to target him despite the fact there's no clear foreshadowing and no apparent reason for Vecna to do so. I feel like I'm always just seeing the same stuff and no one is branching off to say "hey, maybe Mike won't be targeted and will instead have a more detailed and personal arc about him coming to accept himself and his feelings" instead of "Vecna's gonna torment him with Will" which is literally exactly what they've been foreshadowing will happen to Will.

Making their stories the same just makes it feel like there's a "certain way" to be queer when that's just not true. I want Mike's story to be very different from Will's. I want Mike and Will to have unique struggles. I want two different stories being told to represent how there is no one way to be queer.

Why is that so hard for people to understand?

[etherealwanderings]

Sex isn't dirty and it has nothing to do with "rushing things to feed a fantasy." How don't you see that you're sounding indistinguishable from ron desantis and televangelists?

Homophobic GA members think all of Byler is creepy just because it's gay. I promise you that keeping it "pure" is not gonna make them be okay with Byler. You can keep dancing around the truth, but it doesn't change the truth: you think sex, and gay sex in particular, is creepy.

This is puritan behavior.

You post stuff like "I'm gonna protect these 2 cuties from the creeps of the fandom" without any hint of irony. That is purity culture. It's the same mindset of those who try to shield their daughters from their own sexuality or who try to tell people that the only acceptable way of having sex is in a heterosexual marriage, as if sex is something that corrodes and erases innocence. Do you hear what you're saying?

Never mind that there's an obvious thematic significance to a Byler sex scene given the 80s context, as well as emotional significance (since most of sex is psychological, and it's about exploring these character dynamics. It has nothing to do with being "creepy" or "forcing fantasies" on people TF.

The show itself has already shown Byler be sexually attracted to each other, are you denying this? Have you seen hosegate? Have you watched the show?

Another example of a show that handles queer teen sexuality perfectly is the new Chucky show. After showing them fall in love in Seasons 1 and 2, Season 3 has shown their two queer teen main characters ready to take things to the next level. And they openly communicate with each other and talk about safety/consent.

No one's saying that a byler sex scene would be some weird horny thing. It would be a display of love between two characters who have grown up together and would fit within the show's main anti-conformity character arcs and themes. It would be wholesome and tastefully done. Most Bylers would want it to be implied anyway.

It's not like Stranger Things is gonna suddenly become Euphoria or Sex Education or Riverdale.

Didn't you listen to all the minors of the Tag who are feeling uncomfortable thinking about that things? Don't u care about them ? Why do u call them puritans? Also no offense but hosegate is an interpretation lol. If you watch the show without analysing it like crazy,you wouldn't even interpret that scene that way. When I first saw that scene I saw a Will being sad and breathing loudly while looking at Mike because he is nervous. He would love to run to Mike and tell him that it's his painting and his feelings but he cannot and the fact that now he thinks that Byler has 0 chance of happening. It is giving him anxiety. Noah made the same look during the rain fight and generally starts breathing loudly when Will is nervous. If you don't look at the hose and think about a banana , hosegate becomes bs. It's not even a Byler evidence. My problem isn't about Byler sex scenes in general cause if Byler was like over 20 I wouldn't say anything, it's the fact that you are burning to get that scene. You want it so bad that it becomes creepy and when a minor feels uncomfortable because of what u are saying, you call them a puritan.It is basically child manipulation! Not everyone is ready to understand anatomy ! Not everyone likes to see 2 people having intimate moments! Not everyone agrees with minors having s.x! And it's fucking valid !

[darkwolfgoddess]

Hey, everyone!

So, FNAF movie's finally out, huh? After the original plan to go watch it on 31th October cos HALLOWEEN was ruined by Corona, I went to watch it this week. And seeing it after waiting for months, I'd say it was worth it. Was it the best movie I've ever seen? No. Where were some flaws that could've been easily fixed with a better script. But you know what? The movie's still awesome and I get why fans went crazy for it.

Similarly to Paw Patrol movie review I did some years ago, here are some of my thoughts put together more clearly:

My goodness, the animatronics looked PHENOMENAL

Mike and Abby's story is honestly a tragedy if you think about it: Garrett got kidnapped when Mike was still a kid and Abby was most likely meant to be the "replacement kid" his parents decided to have as a way to "make up" for what happened. But when Abby didn't manage to "fill" that hole, their father killed himself, adding even more to the tragedy that happened.

Adding onto that, Abby's "odd" behavior of not talking to anyone, being mean to Mike and drawing all day is definetly a coping mechanism. Because while her parents provide her with food, a room, art supplies etc, they don't engage with her enough. As such, she's learned not to trust her older brother, doesn't engage with others likely due to distrust and fear and buries her sadness and anger into her drawings(kinda like me during high school due to bullying hehehe....moving on). While she still loves her older brother, provided by the drawings around her room, she prefers to be distant because that's how her family has been, so she is distant as well cos she's learned that's how she's safe.

This could also be the reason Abby liked the animatronics so much and called them her friends: they were nice to her and engaged with her in her games.

Mike was also a good character. He's really, REALLY trying to take care of his sister, but is also stuck in the past trying so hard to figure out what happened that he unwillingly neglects his sister, who needs him to be there, but he doesn't understand it. I'm glad he understood his mistakes in the end and became more apparent in Abby's life. While some writing choices in his arc were a bit weird(such as inviting Aunt Jane to babysit Abby while he could've maybe ringed up someone else knowing Abby doesn't like Jane, as well as accepting giving Abby to the animatronics in exchange for being killed so he can stay with Garrett in the afterlife or something(like, dude, didn't you realize Golden Freddy kid was manipulating with you?!)), it was still a satisfying arc and I'm glad he and Abby are on better terms now.

Fort scene was honestly adorable and, in my opinion, introduced more tragedy to the whole possessed animatronic situation: in FNAF games there's more focus in the horror and anxiety of animatronics finding a way to you and stuffing you in a deadly springlock suit. But in here we get to see a more sad note to it. Yeah, kid soul possessed animatronics are creepy, but at the same time they're still KIDS. While under Afton's control and pissed about their situation so much they murder people, they still retain their playful side and want to do fun things. And so when Abby came to Freddy's and wanted to build a fort, they got to be kids again. Yeah, they still planned on offing her, but you get the point.

Speaking of kids, those child actors, especially the blonde boy, did a PHENOMENAL job. If anyone who worked on the movie production sees this, please buy them the biggest sundaes possible.

Before this movie came out I had zero idea who Matthew Hillard was. And honestly I feel sad about it cos he also did a PHENOMENAL job. Upon seeing the first trailer the way the office scene played out with him sitting there, hands under his chin, it already gave me bad vibes. And later on when he's at the pizzeria and removes his mask, the way he tried to make Afton look with those wide, crazed eyes and that small smirk was so good.

The "I always come back" scene was FINE. Like, had Afton said anything else, the fans would've been disappointed.

Also, maybe Afton knows something we don't? With the second movie coming, we could get more info about his backstory and learn something new. ALSO ALSO, it was a genuine threat. That even if Spring Bonnie suit gets destroyed, he'll never stop trying to find ways to return.

Vanessa was another good character. Yeah, maybe a bit too secretive at times which, as said before, could've been fixed with a better writing, but still good. The idea of her being Afton's daughter was, in my opinion, quite a surprise, but welcomed nonetheless. If you think about it, her being Afton's daughter as well as an police officer helps Afton cover up anything that could lead the law to him. And since he's an asshole of a "father" who abuses and shelters her(Headcanon that he's threatened her with Torture Freddy and/or exposing her as his daughter and a second hand at covering up murders every day since the Original Kid Murders), she doesn't really have anything she can do.

Not that many scares? Honestly not such a big problem people make it up to be. FNAF mostly relies on the terrifying envinorment and jumpscares for the horror. Balloon Boy was still a bastard though and I swear I'll burn him one day and not feel sorry about it.

And I guess that's everything. So, in final conclusion, the FNAF movie is FINE. Yeah, some rough edges could've smoothed out a bit more, but otherwise had a pretty well thought out plot, cool animatronics and a satisfying ending. It's clear they wanted to tell a different story we've grown used to from the video games and comics, which isn't bad cos let's be honest, had it been more similar to the video games, people would've complained about it being "too similar". Will definetly be an experience FNAF fans won't ever forget.

Aaaand that's all. Hope you enjoyed and if you've read the whole thing though, congrats! See you on the flipside!

[will80sbyers]

Do not feel 'sad' or 'nervous' if people act like we are going against the majority. Because it is actually nice to have different takes when it is about something non-confirmed. Mike can be both bi, gay, or unlabelled/just queer without a necessary label. I personally am on the 'the writers will never confirm or label Mike's sexuality' opinion, I think he is written to be as 'queer' without any specific label.

I also want to say that I am actually on the most unpopular side of the fandom in this case, because my readings are more unpopular than your readings even. I do not think Mike is realizing anything, I think he is specifically written to be oblivious as being the center of the love triangle in this. Even in S4, I do not think he was realizing his feelings for Will or was confused.

In my understanding, Mike was scared that he lost Will as a friend and that is why he could not hug Will at the airport. I do not think it was about his secret romantic feelings. I think Hermione-Ron parallels do not hold in this case bc the situations are vastly different when it comes to these characters' emotional states. I believe Mike is 100% telling the truth in the things he said. Him not hugging Will was about him thinking he lost Will as a friend, he addresses this when he apologizes. Him not being able to say ily to El was because he was insecure and thought El would not need him anymore, and was scared of losing El if that day came. I believe he is 100% telling the truth in the van scene and during the monologue scene.

What I think is happening in this arc is that, Mike does not realize that he is not loving El as he is supposed to. He does not realize that he does not love El romantically. El is the one who realizes this, and she's the one who realizes that she does not love Mike romantically which is why I believe she will be the one to break up with Mike. He addresses that he does not see himself as nothing special, and El is a superhero in Mike's eyes. That makes them incompitable. Mike has a complex in wanting to be special . It makes their relationship incompitable. El has accepted herself as just a girl, not a monster or a superhero. The way Mike sees her as a superhero does go against El's emotional arc.

I think the moment El breaks up with him, El will say that she does not believe Mike loves him romantically, and this will push Mike to think what love does actually mean etc. (Btw I think the painting reveal will not trigger this, I think the painting reveal will be solved later on instead of it being the thing that triggers Mike's realization or something).

Anyways sorry for the long ask, I just like talking about this with someone who at least shares similar opinions to mine. So, let me what you think if you have time! And have a nice day.

I don't agree with this take that he's completely unaware because I can't explain some scenes and parallels if Mike doesn't already feel at least a bit different for Will, like the triple take in the desert for example or other stuff... But it's an interesting take, it could be!

personally I think he is beginning to understand his feelings for Will in season 4 but he's scared and wants to avoid avoid avoid and "keep the status quo" and keep being El's boyfriend

I definitely agree with some of the things you wrote, I do believe he's being very honest and saying the truth both to Will and El, I believe El is the one that realized she doesn't love Mike this season and will be the one breaking up with him... I also believe it's possible he will know his feelings for Will before knowing about the painting, I'm not sure on how they will handle that, they could do it in a lot of different ways!

and honestly what I care about is just that all the arcs make sense and that they end up together and happy

I'm good with Mike being unlabeled in the show, I don't know if they confirm that he's bi or not but I personally will keep thinking he's bisexual if they leave him unlabeled because I see his crush on El as genuine... unless they make him say he never was attracted to her I will still keep seeing the crush when I watch the show 🤔

[strangeswift]

Will doesnt have to have powers, but let's say they are in a situation where Will needs courage or some shit to fight in some way.... I would prefer that it's Jon, Joyce or El who encourages him, you know? I also don't exactly like how people perceive Will's plot to only revolve around Mike when it is also separated from Mike himself, and is about his overall self acceptence and struggle. It's like saying S3 Will was about Mike only, and I do not like that. I think if the show focuses on only Will's romantic drama it's gonna become the second!Mlvn atp and I don't want that. I already dislike how El and Max's relationship was almost overshadowed by Mike's romantic drama and I don't want to see the same thing happen to Will. And yes. Mike's monologue DID actually take away from the platonic bond of El and Max, that's kinda a fact tbh.

And that's totally valid to prefer that! I wouldn't mind that at all, I just think it would make a little bit more sense for it to be Mike. Just my personal opinion.

Will's arc doesn't only revolve around Mike, but it's just a fact that it revolves heavily around Mike in seasons 3 and 4.

Again, Will's love for Mike is much more than "romantic drama". It's a beautiful love story and important representation. I understand that romance can often overshadow platonic relationships, which is frustrating, but let's not diminish the importance of romantic love. It's like a central part of the human experience for the majority of people, which is why so much media focuses on it, and has for centuries.

I don't think the problem with Mi1even was there being too much focus on their romance, I think the issue is that they're not romantically compatible and they're not good for each other. So I don't think Byler is in danger of becoming another M1leven.

I don't think M1levn overshadowed El and Max's bond necessarily... I mean if it weren't for El's relationship troubles she never would have approached or bonded with Max.

And I hate the monolgue as much as the next girl, but I don't really think it overshadowed Elmax. El's memories she used to try and fight were all of Max and it literally plays Max saying, "Not Hopper, not Mike, you." I think the monolgue and her subsequent "failure" is important to El's arc. She's in a relationship with Mike, and if that's going to end —which it needs to — they do need to make the issues with that relationship somewhat of a focus.

[castlebyersafterdark]

what do you think are the chances of joyce saying something like "and, well... he IS a very handsome young man" when will finally tells her he's in love with mike/theyre together?

or even karen saying it to mike about will, which could be more impactful??

I've always really adored the relationship between Joyce and Mike! That's her honorary son! Season two was so good for so many reasons and I hope when they say a return to season 1/2 vibes, we get more Byler/Wheeler family interactions all around. They will be one big blended family one day!! I love when people point out in season 3 when Hopper's complaining about Mike and El - "That smug son of a bitch, Mike" and Joyce probably sees a hundred little moments flash before her eyes of Mike being sweet to Will, there's no way. I'm such a sap and we neeeeed a really touching moment with Will and Joyce. That's her boy. She's gonna give him all the love and support. Who else better for her son?

Karen is an enigma I cannot wait to solve but I feel like it would make them finally understand each other, regardless of how the Wheelers are! But a part of me wonders how known it will be when Mike and Will get together? The whole extended group? Their extended families? My mind goes a hundred directions when it comes to predictions, why I can't settle on anything for the season.

And not sure either or would be more impactful, but I think the Will/Joyce moment is a bigger emotional arc because her entire thing has been doing anything for her kid, she'd literally follow him to hell and back - and we know as the audience that she's going to accept Will, but he doesn't.

[coldninjaruins-blog]

One thing I don't understand is why many people on reddit believe that the conclusion of Will's arc is Will accepting himself and his sexuality, feeling comfortable with who he is.

I just personally don't think Will himself struggles much with being gay? He made his project of a hero he admires about Alan Turing, a historical figure who is well known gay. He did this in the fucking 80s! When the American Association of Psychiatrists removed homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses only in 1973 and the WHO would not do so until 1990.

He doesn't try to force himself to like girls or anything like feign interest in them (boy was saying "I don't—" to the cute girl who asked him if he wanted to dance before Mike stuck his spoon in, or the pretty girl in his class who tried to play footsies with him).

Unlike El, I would venture to say that in lenora is where we have seen Will most comfortable in his own skin.

He never denied who he is or tried to change himself so why do people think the culmination of his arc is accepting himself?

The narrative of season 4 is not Will suffering and being hurt because he likes boys, the writers could have gone that route but didn't.

He is suffering because he is unilaterally in love with his best friend.

As this really good post says, Will doesn't hate himself for being gay so why would he finish his arc accept himself when we can assume he already does?