#i understand the anakin padme parallel

[chalupaswanswarm]

girls.

I was looking up some stuff when I found out about Etain Tur-Mukan, a jedi knight. And it turns out she married a clone. And I looked more into this. And you know what I find??

Look familiar?

...I dont think i can do this anymore

[padmestrilogy]

padme saying “i don’t know you anymore” the key to it all maybe..she’s fought with anakin before, she’s witnessed him do terrible things, but she’s never felt like she didn’t know him. their backstories parallel each other, they both had stolen childhoods, padme would’ve felt like anakin was one of the few people in the galaxy who could understand her—and in turn, she one of the few who could understand him. her “i don’t know you anymore” comes with an implied “and you must not have known me as as well as i thought, because this isn’t what i want.” she’s mourning the loss of her first (and really, only) real connection to another human in that scene. is it a little fucked for her prioritize that connection over the suffering of others? well yes . but also very romantic ...

[groove-on-boogie-down]

Just watched Attack of the Clones and noticed more parallels between Anakin Skywalker and Osha Aniseya.

(Long post ahead, with visuals!)

In AotC, Anakin's mother dies before she can tell him, "I love you," and Anakin descends down a path of destruction out of grief.

Osha force-chokes her father figure before he can say, "I love you," because she grieves his betrayal and the loss of her family.

Now these are very different forms of paternal love by Shmi and Sol, but I LOVE comparing and contrasting Anakin and Osha because these situations lead to different outcomes and reactions. Yet at the core, they have these strong emotions they hold inside. In the simplest form, they have both lost parents and both lost their mothers.

Both Osha and Anakin are born with the help of the Force, we know this. Anakin is born completely of the Force. Osha and Mae are born through their mother's magic augmented by the Force. Anakin didn't care for his home planet. He was born into slavery and trauma. But his mother loved him dearly. He left because he dreamt of better. To be a Jedi and return to free her too.

Osha came from a family that loved and protected her, but she longed for individuality and to explore the galaxy outside of their coven walls. Anakin finds his mother in her last moments, and the dark side takes over him. He seeks revenge and kills the Tusken camp out of rage.

Osha learns the man who raised her killed her mother. Her silent anger is simmering. She doesn't lash out the exact same way, she's in shock.

Their reactions work for both of them. Anakin had his emotions building inside of him. In his feelings of inadequacy, he tells Padme that he is used to fixing everything, but this is the one time he failed. Anakin thinks he lost his mother due to his own weakness and believes more power will prevent it in the future. However, he is also ashamed of how his anger manifests and the act he committed in the camp. Padme tells him, "To be angry is to be human." (And as I am typing this RotS is on and Palpatine tells him the same, that seeking revenge on Dooku is natural despite his unease). But because of his training, Anakin says, "I'm a Jedi. I know, I'm better than this."

Osha has power, but she doesn't realize it. Striking out at Qimir catches her off guard. Killing her master startles her to shock. She's not seeking power. Osha seeks an understanding of herself and to be understood. Just like Anakin, Osha believes she failed as a Jedi for showing her anger. For not being able to accept loss. Qimir pushes her to confront his realization, and similar to Padme, he tells her, "This anger, this pain. This is who you are."

Anakin and Osha descend to darkness in similar ways. They feel and emote in similar ways. The Jedi are not successful in teaching them how to healthily deal with their feelings. So these experiences mirror, but they are still distinct examples of Jedi that are seduced to the dark side.

To me, Anakin Skywalker and Osha Aniseya are incredibly compelling characters that are only strengthened when analyzed together. End.

[thegingerwrites]

I just picked up Mike Chen's Brotherhood and while I'm only a few chapters in (and have been a little disappointed so far) I did have a couple of obikin thoughts

The book takes place immediately after Anakin's knighting and though it seems like a few weeks have passed since aotc, he hasn't really had a chance to be with Obi-Wan or Padme. Anakin and Obi-Wan are almost actively avoiding each other but Anakin and Padme get a chance to go on one of their first dates: he takes her on a speeder joyride and she pays for access to one of Coruscant's illicit street racing lanes. She's clearly taking an interest in one of his interests, it's very sweet even though they both should have known it would be something of a bad idea. 

Anakin has a great time. He's speeding through narrow passages and tight corners, he pulls into a vertical dive the way he does with Obi-Wan in aotc. Padme screams and laughs, and at the end tells him, that was exhilarating and I never want to do it again.

I think the parallel to the chase scene in aotc really got to me. Like Obi-Wan also verbally hates Anakin's driving but he is always going to get back into the cockpit with him. Part of that is obligation, they have a job to do, they were master and padawan, his feelings are not going to get in the way of the task at hand. But on another level, I feel like this cute little scene also speaks to the fact that Padme can't keep up with Anakin when it comes to his abilities, his connection to the Force, his intensity. Later they go to a market in the lower levels and Padme starts talking about the life prospects for the people that live there and then stops herself because she knows Anakin is just humoring her. There are parts of him that she is never going to be able to understand and while the trying is romantic, they both have to ignore fundamental parts of themselves in order to be together. 

I guess what I'm saying is that Obi-Wan can't exactly keep up with Anakin either. He drives too fast, he has too much power, he feels too much, but Obi-Wan is always going to get back into the cockpit with him. He is always going to try. 

You know, until he doesn't.

[the-far-bright-center]

Re: Obitine and Anidala

I originally wrote this in response to @marvelstars' excellent post on the subject, but I wanted to share it again because it's one of many topics in which I have a differing view from the prevailing fandom perspective.

Above all, it truly drives me nuts how the fandom pits these two relationships against each other. I'm a die-hard Anidala shipper and when I first watched TCW, I was DELIGHTED by the Obitine ship. I saw nothing about it that made me think it was supposed to be viewed as somehow 'better' or more 'ideal' than Anidala. I only ever saw it as a relationship that was more suited to Obi-Wan's character and personality. Not to mention that Padme and Satine are presented as friends who get along well and go on adventures together to right political wrongs, much in the same vein that Anakin and Obi-Wan go on their many military exploits together. The story sets them up as two couples who, in an a more ideal timeline, would be besties who go on double dates together. In my opinion, fandom's insistence on viewing them through the lens of 'which one is a 'morally better couple' is completely missing the point. Personally, I see them as two sides of the same coin.

Since @marvelstars' post was specifically about these two couples as they relate to the idea of commitment to the Jedi Order, I also focused on that angle. Imo, the way Obitine's relationship panned out made sense for their characters and context. Just like Anidala's makes sense for theirs. Obi-Wan and Satine met each other as young adults and had a whole year 'on the run' together before having to say their farewells, whereas Anakin and Padme first meet as children, then re-meet and fall in love over a short span of time, and then suddenly their world is at war and they are facing imminent, possibly indefinite, separation. That's why they marry while still remaining in their respective Jedi and Senator roles, because they feel it might be their only chance to have anything resembling the family they both long for. They understand that they might not survive the war. Whereas Obi-Wan and Satine had first met when Satine's world was already enmeshed in civil war, and then they parted once peace was reestablished and their lives were no longer in immediate danger. And when they meet again during the Clone Wars, it's a wholly different scenario and things have drastically changed (she is the head of a neutral system, he is already established as a general in a war she is opposed to). They are also older, in their 30s, while Anakin and Padme embody the headstrong impetuosity and passion of young love. So it's not as though Obi-Wan and Satine are going to drop everything and enter a committed relationship/marriage in that context in the same way Anakin and Padme do in theirs (when, notably, Anakin is still a padawan and about to be sent to the frontlines to fight in a war for the first time).

As mentioned above, when I was watching TCW I never thought that the purpose of showing both of these relationships in contrasting-parallel to one another was somehow to demonstrate that one was more 'sacrificial' for remaining in the Order and giving up the relationship while the other was more 'selfish' for trying to have both at the same time. Rather, what I feel the story is actually saying is something completely different. It's important to remember that both of these relationships involve a Jedi and the political leader to whom he had originally been assigned as a bodyguard. What is the significance of that? Well, I would argue it's more than just a romantic trope. When I watch Lucas-era Star Wars, I'm always aware that the characters have both an immediate role in-story as well as a symbolic function. Satine, a pacifist, can be seen to represent Peace. Padme, as a Senator, stands for Justice and the rights of the people. And what is it that Obi-Wan says to Luke all those years later? That the Jedi were 'the guardians of Peace and Justice in the old Republic'. This strikes me as hugely significant. Especially if we understand that the Jedi Order had lost its way as of the Prequels-era. While the fandom focuses on which couple is 'better' because of how their relationship affects each Jedi's respective commitment to the Order, I see it from a completely different angle. My understanding is that the Jedi's TRUE purpose (in relation to their role within the Republic) was actually to dedicate their lives to protecting Peace and Justice and those who truly upheld these ideals in the galaxy. Obi-Wan and Anakin's actual callings in life should have been to protect Satine and Padme, whom they loved. Whether this manifested in a more chivalric, courtly love scenario or an outright marriage is immaterial. Rather, what matters is that being a Jedi and dedicating their lives to these women due to their love for them was not incompatible with their role as protectors and defenders of the galaxy, but was in fact the truest expression of it. The so-called 'commitment' to the Order itself was never truly the point, and that's the tragedy of the Prequels-era. Because it was the Order that had by this point forbidden love and family, and which had embroiled Obi-Wan and Anakin and the rest of the Jedi in a war that went against their own principles. A war that, it could be argued, ultimately lead to the deaths of both Satine and Padme, and with them Peace and Justice—the very values that the Jedi were supposed to protect and serve.

[marvelstars]

Does it bothers you when people are like "Leia is so Anakin coded" or "Leia is so alike both Ani and Padme" while completely reducing Luke to "Padme in a boy's body". I have seen a few edits of the twins on tik tok lately and always when the video is about the parallels between Anakin and Luke the comments go "No. That is wrong. Luke is like Padme and Leia is like Anakin", or "you get the twins right, anakin-Leia, luke-padme".

And I have tbh, that pisses me off a bit, mostly on Luke's behalf since he is my fave, cause while I totally agree Luke has a lot of similarities with Padme, he also is alike Anakin in so many ways. And it upsets me a little people just trying to erase everything they have in common just to support this narrative. (Main reason why I don't like the reverse AU, or Senator Luke fics. The ones I have read just straigh up pushed this narrative, putting his love to fly, his passion, and many things that makes Luke be Luke to the side only to make him be a version of Padme)

It is also upsetting for Leia, since she is far away from being 100% like Anakin. They are both passionate and determined people, yes, but this doesn't make her be "Ani 2.0". And this narrative also completely dismiss the existence of Bail and Breha on her upbringing.

Both twins share a lot of similarities with both of their parents in different and intricated ways, with a lot of their own personality on the mix, what makes them unique. It baffles me see them being reduced to charicatures of their parents.

I agree with you, I understand fandom wants to have fun with memes but sometimes they go too far, Leia and Luke ultimately are their own persons and tbh those takes also do a big disservice to Anakin and Padme characters´reducing their arc and personality terribly and ignoring Owen, Beru, Bail and Breha influence on the twins emotional development.

But I will focus on Luke and his relationship to Anakin here.

Luke is a strong force sensitive with a good aptitude towards mechanical work, he is passionate, short tempered, idealist, has big dreams for the future, excellent pilot and soldier who cares more than anything for friends and family and causes he considers just, he is also kind and compassionate even if this doesn´t come easily to him, just like Anakin was at his age.

That said, he is also down to earth, pragmatic and has a no non-sense actitude when it comes to other people, see his reaction to Han trying to scam them on their travel to Alderaan, he doesn´t suffer people trying to make him feel inferior because he knows his own personal value, those are characteristics he got for being raised by his uncle and aunt, sure they lived on a desert planet full of Hutts, slavers, criminals and bounty hunters but they lived an honest way of life and didn´t believe they owned either group an ounce of their honest work, they only ever owned it to their family.

Anakin´s experiences shaped him differently on this matter, given his life as slave his mother teached him the art of bend,dont break by keeping his identity intact, this made him more susceptible to be ordered around by the Chancellor, the Jedi Council, the Republic sometimes even Padme even if this meant sacrificing his original hopes of freeing his mother, the slaves of tatooine and having a family.

Anakin developed low self esteem issues when he got separated from his mother because he no longer had her unconditional support and knew the reason why he was trained by the Jedi was contingent to his habilities and what he could do for the Order, not because he as a person, was important or would have been chosen for himself as a Jedi if he wasn´t so strong in the force but he learned to keep his real self buried and protected from outside forces while using the systems controlling him to his advantage. Palpatine managed to break him but even Vader was able to keep part of his real self alive despite the Emperor´s many efforts to turn him completely to the darkside ,which Luke noticed thanks to his bond to his father.

Those characteristics Luke got from his Uncle and Aunt served Luke well when he confronted the Emperor, Obi-Wan and Yoda, he already was interested in being a Jedi because of his father but this didn´t mean he was going to blindly follow whatever order Yoda and Obi-Wan gave him as much as he personaly appreciated and loved them as people and masters in the force and he certainly wasn´t going to act as if the Emperor wasn´t trying to destroy his familiar bond to his father when he didn´t even know the guy, took his father from him before he was born and was the rebellion´s main adversary, all Palpatine was for Luke was an objetive to kill on sight and Palpatine knew this, that´s why he temped him to the darkside by giving him the oportunity to kill him. Luke is also of the mind that if he doesn´t agree with something and that something is the source of great pain for others he is 100% justified in destroying it, see Jabba´s palace, the death star, the Empire. Anakin´s style is more "I know the system doesn´t work, it sucks but I will be damned if I don´t try to fix it or work around it" because he often feel as if he had no other choice.

Many fans take for granted the fact Luke forgave his father as his main personality trait when the opposite is the truth, Luke wasn´t a stranger to violence because he lived on a planet in which if you didn´t learn to take care of yourself you could die and as part of the rebellion he wasn´t a stranger to killing imperials and losing loved ones to the cause, the interesting thing about Luke´s CHOICE of saving his father isn´t that it was part of his nature all along, it´s the fact that´s pretty much agaisn´t his natural temperament, saving Vader went agaisn´t his natural care for family, Vader may be his father but he hurt his friends and Leia, saving Vader was the least pragmatic choice acording to his identity as a rebel and Jedi, saving Vader went agaisn´t his own feelings of abandoment and yearning for a father feeling betrayed by Anakin´s turn to the darkside.

Still Luke made this choice because he felt how utterly isolated and broken Vader was and he cared enough for the image of the father he never knew, a father he knew could still be there, to show him some uncomplicated, familiar love once again, the kind his aunt and uncle showed him, if only for Luke´s own peace of mind that he truly tried everything to make his father feel better, while his pragmatic side took care of things by letting Leia know about his mission and telling her they had to attack the DSII anyway even if he was there because the cause of freeing the galaxy from the Empire was still more important than his personal feelings and issues with his father.

The narrative gives Luke the victory, saving his father from the darkside which lead to the destruction of the Emperor and the Empire, for being loving and compassionate despite this not coming natural to him but as part of his personal grow and maybe, as the legacy of the two women who shaped his family without him meeting them, Shmi and Padme and the person his father used to be.

Luke and the Skywalker family in general are waaay more than some fans give them credit.

Thanks for the question anon

[imanopossum]

since some people somehow think she’s abusive, what are your thoughts on creelby?

excellent question op i’m gonna talk about star wars

so actually first off we look at the overarching theme of the play: love conquers evil

this theme is present throughout stranger things when it’s related to the mind flayer. the gang got will to communicate with them by reminding him of happy memories. el was able to get through to billy by talking about his mother.

the difference with henry is he didn’t have anyone to help him fight the mind flayer, until patty. and he didn’t have anyone after patty. the tragedy of his story is it could have ended very differently if he had someone to love him. after patty he just sort of had nothing left to fight for (see his line “i’m tired of fighting it”) and the mind flayer just consumed him

ok now i’m gonna get autistic about star wars

there are so many parallels between henry and anakin, that’s probably another post in and of itself, so i’m just gonna focus on anakin and padme and henry and patty. (i 100% believe anakin was an inspiration when the duffers wrote henry)

for starters it’s both “forbidden love” with virginia and father newby not wanting henry and patty to be together. it’s the same with ani and padme, he’s a jedi and she’s a senator so it’s frowned upon to be in a relationship.

henry and ani are both very troubled souls, gifted with abilities they don’t fully understand sometimes, mommy issues, and are being manipulated by someone promising them greater power. (the mind flayer/brenner and palpatine)

their shared downfall: wanting to save their loved ones

as we all know if we’ve seen star wars ani has a dream vision of padme dying in childbirth and is obsessed with preventing this from happening. palpatine convinces him to kill to gain more power to save her. obviously, palpatine lied and padme still died. and this broke anakin, leaving him with nothing to fight for, forever in palpatines service.

and now with henry: henry has a vision of the mind flayer telling him he will kill patty. he desperately tries to prevent this. he tells her to run away out of town to protect her. meanwhile brenner is egging him on to kill to gain more power. and of course, patty still “dies” and henry is left with nothing to fight for, forever in brenner’s captivity.

remarkably similar, no?

patty and padme both act as a calming voice of reason for henry and ani. they are a source of comfort in their awful lives. and they’re the only ones able to counteract who’s manipulating them. patty telling henry “i love you” allowed henry to fight off the mind flayer and save father newby. padme was attempting to make anakin see reason about palpatine overthrowing the republic for before obi-wan showed up and set him off again.

but in the end, henry and ani both lost who they were trying to save through desperate measures and ended up in the servitude of the one manipulating them.

now…as for why some people think patty is abusive? no clue my friend, i have racked my brain for what could possibly be perceived as abuse or assault and can find nothing that makes any sense whatsoever. so yeah

anyways, thanks for the ask, i love any chance to talk about anakin to henry pipeline!

[theisleisfullofnoises]

STAR WARS RANT INCOMING!

If I could change two things about the entire Star Wars canon, I would firstly make Anakin Skywalker 14 years old in The Phantom Menace.

It fixes so much that doesn’t work about the prequels.

The Jedi Council evaluation: He’s too angry? A kind, empathetic boy who had been raised a slave on a hard world run by the biggest criminal empire in the galaxy - of course. Of course he would be. That kind of injustice would burn so deeply - at 14, he would not just be a witness to the wrongs, he would understand them, and that’s why he would be “too old”. The Jedi Council would clock immediately that this boy had learned how to hate, in a way so deeply entrenched that no amount of training and meditation would wash that away.

Make him 14, and the Jedi Council goes from a bunch of dicks to instead a bunch of misguided dicks in a way that makes mores sense with the Clone Wars portrayals.

At 14, Anakin would be YOUNG but believable as a genius pilot. Qui Gon gambling on the pod race, him defeating the Trade Federation control ship? An incredible feat! But not ridiculous, as it kinda is in the movie. Also, 13-14 is older enough that I believe he could convince his mother to let him compete at all. If my 8-9 year old was flying in homicidal death races, I would lose my shit. No. Just no.

It’s also more believable (and significantly less creepy) that a 14 year old Anakin could meet Padme, 17-18yo herself, bond innocently in the circumstances and have that develop into a deep love and admiration when they meet again older. So much less cringe!!!

That’s #1 what I would change.

#2 is that I would rewrite Anakin and Padme’s entire doomed narrative.

Padme and Anakin needed parallel character arcs over the course of the wars up until RotS, as the war pushed them father and farther from each other ideologically until finally ending with him tearing down the Republic as she raised the Rebellion to fight the Empire put in its place (which is canon and got cut).

Lucas wrote the tragedy that Anakin killed her because he thought she had betrayed him when she hadn’t - the tragedy should have been because she HAD.

Also, stfu with whole “she has lost the will to live”, I defy you to say Padme would not cling screaming to life every second she could to leave her children a safer galaxy.

Anyway, these aren’t the only things one could change to improve the Star Wars canon, but I think they would have the biggest overall positive impact. We get left with an older Anakin, heroic, full of the desire to do good, and only too aware of the injustices and hypocrisy that surround him in the Order, already walking the knife edge of love and bitterness.

What dya think? I would love to hear other opinions!

[sithaari]

Somebody really said that "Padme is the dollar store version of Leia"... I'm ready to throw hands, but most of all: why compare the two when we can just like the BOTH OF THEM??? They are both similar but also have unique characteristics.

female characters in any piece of media are often pitted against each other, but people get really uppity about feminine women. they're almost always more heavily criticized. padme likes fashion, is romantic, and wants to get married and have children. and star wars fans don't know how to handle that because padme is also intelligent, brave, and a capable leader. but, y'know, she wears dresses, so the fandom will use the most backwards logic to explain why padme is actually a horrible, selfish person. and then they'll frame it as some kind of feminist hot take.

and to compare padme negatively to leia is wild because they share so many similar traits, often acting as parallels to one another. but star wars fans don't like that either because padme is too much of a girly girl. leia is the cool action girl. she doesn't like wearing dresses (except when she does). she's not interested in romance (except when she is). she doesn't care about all that boring political shit (except she was literally a senator and the crown princess of alderaan). and it's not like padme was much of a fighter or a rebel (except when she was both of those things).

but i came to the conclusion a long time ago that many fans simply don't understand either padme or leia. they're often not treated like actual characters but self-inserts for fans to project onto. so-called padme fans who hate anakin will argue that she deserved better, but their version of 'better' includes padme trying to kill anakin on mustafar. which goes against everything padme is as a person. or she should have fallen in love with obi-wan or sabe. she should have survived to raise her children. she should have survived to lead the rebellion and kill vader. she should have suspected that palpatine was a sith lord. she should have expected anakin's fall to the dark side. so many people in this fandom have an idea on what they think padme should be rather than just empathizing with who she actually is in the damn movies.

and leia has become a mix of everything. she would never fall to the dark side because she's so morally superior, except she's even more drawn to the dark side than luke is. she'd be a better jedi than luke and a more powerful sith than vader. except she'd be neither of those things because all that force nonsense is stupid. like this fandom doesn't even know who the fuck leia is because people turn her into whatever they want to fit a particular narrative. and ngl sometimes it comes across as bitterness over luke and anakin being the main focus of the story. and i'm saying this as someone who really does like leia. but it's annoying how leia is often praised at the expense of other characters, particularly padme because she's not some nerd's idea of a 'strong' female character.

[rakatan]

the thing about comparing anakin and elzar is…we’re doing it wrong. their minor parallels don’t serve to highlight their similarities but rather they serve to emphasize their significant differences.

upon reading that elzar has yet to reach masterhood naturally our minds will gravitate toward anakin. it gives us the readers something to base elzar against while we watch his character unfold. elzar’s continued knighthood is surprising due to this innate comparison. he’s not too young, he’s not inexperienced, he’s not troubled, he’s not being manipulated into the council by the chancellor…elzar is simply not the easiest to work with. that’s all. his sporadic explorations without explanations lead his fellows to find him difficult and to the council, that reason is enough. while anakin’s masterhood being delayed is understandable, reasonable, and not unfair, elzar’s is. the difference here emphasizes that even within the jedi, those who do not fit into perfected molds are often inherently punished for doing so.

he thought it was unfair. he didn’t care about other jedi’s paths through the force—why should they concern themselves with his? he just wanted to follow his road where it led.

their reactions to this delayed masterhood also differ. this mistreatment irritates elzar since none of his innovations put others in harm's way, but his willingness to fail outshines the incredible knowledge he contributes to the order. and although he might disagree with the council’s decision he will still abide by them and listen to their judgment. it again emphasizes that elzar is older and has a level of emotional maturity that anakin was never allowed to reach.

when we learn that elzar and avar had a romantic relationship in the past our minds also jump to the forbidden relationship between a jedi and republic senator. especially considering one of elzar and avar’s first scenes elzar suggests retirement on the same island anakin and padme got married on. elzar’s differences from anakin are highlighted again when we watch him let go of avar in the epilogue of light of the jedi. elzar loves avar and he always will, but his attachment to her at this moment was not consuming him completely. avar reaches out to hold his hand and he reminds her that “we are jedi,” she invites him to dance and he declines until later, elzar describes his emotions with intensity but elzar also lets go. their relationship was never dangerous and the emotional intimacy they do maintain is enough for him.

avar was a friend. a fellow jedi master. they’d agreed long ago that’s all they would ever be. and it was enough. truly, it was.

the most common comparison i see drawn between these two is the usage of the dark side. understandably so, elzar is one of the only jedi in the high republic to tap into the dark side but the reason why he does differentiates him from anakin and even his closest peers. elzar doesn’t use the dark side to take lives, he doesn’t use the dark side to appease his own selfish desires, elzar uses the dark side to save a group of jedi. in his typical fashion elzar finds solutions and at his lowest point, in the middle of a battlefield, elzar sees that he can use his emotions to save lives. the build-up to this moment was written incredibly well, it combines elzar’s innovative mind, overly compassionate heart, and the emotional anguish that has been plaguing him for months. in contrast to other jedi and anakin, elzar has pure intentions even though his actions may not result in the best of outcomes.

"we have a jedi who does flirt to the dark side and realizes what road he's going down, where instead of embracing it, goes to a friend and says, "i need help." we didn't want elzar to be anakin 2.0." - cavan scott

the generalizations between these two often do their characters a disservice by ignoring their defining differences. differences that are intentionally being highlighted to further the contrast of each era and the contrast of the two as individuals.

[padawansuggest]

I’m pretty sure a lot of people read “these two people don’t understand each other” as “these two people hate each other” most of the time. No, they just need to be given the chance to actually communicate in a language they both fully understand (violence).

They don’t understand each other. But I bet you anything that if Cody and Anakin were sitting down in a tense moment (maybe Obi-Wan getting hurt maybe he’s just not available but they’re both worried for some reason, maybe he was the only person Padme allowed in the birthing room it seems possible that Padme would want Anakin a little bit away to lessen their bond and following canon Obi-Wan WAS the first to hold the twins and I think even Anakin would be pleased with that and I like thematic parallels sometimes, but their Obi-Buffer isn’t there rn but I like a lot of ideas for this) and Anakin just suddenly blurts out something concerning like that the chancellor had told him he’d be kicked from the order for being in love or rambling on about being alone with Palps as a kid while Cody on the other hand knows the chancellor sorta forced the council into that one, and Cody just sorta… softens.

It’s not that he’s all ‘oh poor baby’ at that so much as ‘this seems a lot like how the alphas and older clones would get the little ones away from one-on-one time with the trainers at all costs’ or something of the sort and they just sorta talk a bit and Cody is all ‘holy shit this child is very lied to and scared’ and as an older brother of children who are constantly lied to and scared but being old enough to be one of the clones that remembers the mess ups and the bad conduct at the beginning he knows he KNOWS that a lot of what Anakin is saying is messed up and he needs some help, someone that GETS it if nothing, and just sorta talks to him a bit.

Honestly it wouldn’t take much talking too get Anakin to see some things and put Cody in a sibling/parent place in his life but the cement is the sparring they get into later where Cody kicks his ass but instead of Obi-Wan’s (as much as I love him) poetic talk about his flaws and strengths he gets a talking to about exactly how he gets cocky and why that needs to change and Ani is all ‘🥺 daddy?’ And Cody is all *scoff* ‘do I LOOK like your daddy-‘ and it’s beautiful. Cody has a new baby brother now.

[raleighrador]

I agree with Darth Jess re Anakin. I also think the idea that Obi-Wan is what the Jedi were, and Ahsoka what they should have been, aren’t wrong per se I just think that has very different implications than OP seems to be reaching for.

For Obi-Wan, I think what OP is missing is any sense of agency. Obi-Wan had good intentions, yes, but the notion of “set up to fail” just refuses to engage with his own choices and actions.

Satine wouldn’t have died if Obi-Wan used the dark side. Obi-Wan does. His conception of self and fidelity to the Jedi code is more important to him than Satine’s life. That’s a choice - a selfish one.

This parallels what happened on the Coronet in earlier seasons. The difference is Anakin wasn’t on Mandalore to save Satine while Obi-Wan worried and chose inaction.

It’s the same set of choices that drove him to raise Anakin the way he did. He chose to take on a 9 year old who was good and kind and selfless and 10 years later he had a 19 year old who was so scared and angry and insecure that he had become the sort of person who massacred an entire village.

Yes, Anakin is to blame. Yes, Palpatine is to blame. And yes, Obi-Wan is to blame. We should believe Obi-Wan when he says he has failed Anakin because he did.

Obi-Wan chose to be the textbook perfect Jedi instead of being the master/parent that Anakin needed. Basically every canon portrayal of Obi-Wan shows him very clearly understanding the tension between those two and choosing the former. The fact that he felt bad about it proves nothing except he knew it was wrong.

He was well intentioned and good and the textbook perfect Jedi and all of those things came as result his choices and he deserves credit for them. They’re also the same choices that resulted in his disastrous failure and he deserves blame for them too.

Ahsoka is also an interesting one - I agree she comes to be something like what a Jedi “should” be. Compassionate, politically unaffiliated, compassionate etc. I slightly disagree on the characterisation of how she got there.

First - her decision to leave the Jedi, to leave Anakin, is a selfish one. As Darth Jess says, selfish doesn’t always mean bad. But this very much is a selfish decision. This is a decision to forgo her friends and family and strike out on her own because she needs to learn about herself without everyone else around her. It’s a totally normal thing for a teenager to do. Leaving home and becoming your own person is normal and fine.

It’s also selfish to look into the tear filled eyes of the man who has dedicated his life to raising you, who is begging you not to leave him, and say “I’m sorry but no. I know what you need but it’s not what I need.”

It isn’t BAD (or good) but it clearly prioritises your own needs over someone else’s.

What’s so interesting about Ahsoka is this is a lesson she learns basically by herself. Far from selfishness being his problem, Anakin almost always allows himself to be split into a thousand pieces because he refuses to say no (for complex reasons) to anyone. Equally, people like Obi-Wan or Padme have consistently prioritised grand duty over their own needs.

Ahsoka is wise enough to look at the people around her and rather than emulate them she sees the ways in which they are breaking and chooses a different path. Her great lesson is in choosing which behaviours to emulate and which to reject.

I would argue that the best parts of what Ahsoka becomes are the things she learns specifically and uniquely from Anakin. Season 7 of TCW, as well as Rebels, and the Ahsoka TV show, are all meditations on Ahsoka saving “the little guy” rather then fulfilling some grand “greater good” mission.

It’s literally made explicitly clear that Rafa and Trace are not the sort of people a “real” Jedi would help. Ahsoka immediately adopts them/gets adopted into their family and goes out of her way to help them specifically. In Rebels we never really see much of her Fulcrum activity (and the title quickly gets passed on) but we do see her saving babies. The Ahsoka TV show (and build up in the Mandalorian) is notionally about the strategic threat of Thrawn but really is about rescuing Ezra (and when she has to choose between trying to stop Thrawn or save Ezra and Sabine she chooses the latter).

These are all compassionate, yes, but also deeply interpersonal attachments.

Things she learned from Anakin. Specifically Anakin. Only Anakin.

I don’t know how much clearer the text (flawed as it is) can be. “Real” Jedi met Rafa and Trace, looked at their circumstances, and said “no worries, the Force is chill with this”. Ahsoka saw people in need and helped. A “Real” Jedi wouldn’t have gotten involved in drug smuggling to help their friends out. A “Real” Jedi wouldn’t abandon the mission for their friends.

Anakin would. Anakin did, all the time. Ahsoka watched and learned and did it better. Doing it better in effect meant rejecting the strictures of the Jedi order, and not feeling guilty about doing so.

I love the clone wars trio bc I see them all as different commentaries on the Jedi of the time.

Obi Wan is what the Jedi were.

Anakin is what the Jedi preached against.

Ahsoka is what the Jedi should aspire to be.

Obi Wan had the best of intentions: he wanted to save Anakin, to save Satine, to save Ahsoka. But in the end he failed due to Sith scheming. He was set up to fail, wether it be his dead master or the intergalactic war he was forced to fight in. And in the end Anakin did fall from the light, Satine was killed in Maul's quest for revenge, and Ahsoka walked away. He was a well-intentioned man with a good heart who was ultimately set up to fail by the Sith.

Anakin too wanted safety for his loved ones, but he took it to far. Instead of prioritizing those people, their wants and needs, he prioritized the way they made him felt. Instead of selfless love, he loved selfishly, which is exactlaly what the Jedi are against. They're not against love, they're against attachment. Anakin couldn't let go of Ahsoka: it corroded his faith in the Jedi, sowed seeds of resentment. He couldn't accept that Padme or Obi Wan didn't agree with his vision, because if they don't make him feel good, then they no longer love him. Anakin was a kind boy twisted by the Sith and his misguided attachment to others.

Ahsoka falls into a similar category as Obi Wan, except for one detial. She walked away. She recognized that the Jedi were unintentionally loosing themselves in war. And even through she was a spectacular warrior, a talented commander, she recognized that it wasn't supposed to be her job. She was able to let go of her attachment to Anakin and the 501st. She was a product of her masters and friends, of Obi Wan, Anakin, Padme, and all the others who influenced her growth. And even in the end, when her world fell, she still acted with compassion and understanding, which is exactly what a Jedi should be. Despite her discomfort with the twisted meaning of the title, Ahsoka embodied the fundamental traits of a Jedi. Not flawless, but an empathetic peacekeeper capable of embracing love and rejecting attachment.

Idk if I'm articulating it right, but the general idea is there.

[thatswhatsushesaid]

k i'm gonna just put a pin in the whole "was jgy actually massacring multiple sects of 40+ people just for demonic cultivation date nights with xue yang" ('meat cute' anyone? ..I'll see myself out) or the "is wwx's capacity for gruesome violence inherently morally[1] inferior/superior to jgy's" disc horse for another time and move on

no one criticizing willfully bad faith takes about jin guangyao is trying to turn wei wuxian into the novel's villain when they bring up his actions in relation to what jin guangyao has done. no one is actually saying that jgy is not the principle antagonist in the novel. we can read. that is his role in the story, his goals and priorities end up in opposition to wwx's, and wwx is the protagonist. and, to my knowledge, there are no legit wen chao simps chomping at the bit to justify his eradication of the jiang sect at lotus pier. unless there are! in which case apologies to any wen chao simps who may read this post, your simping is valid. (also: bold choice. weird, but bold.)

what we are saying: the text intentionally sets up jgy and wwx as narrative parallels to each other. the text intentionally provides us with unreliable narrators as our lens through which we must view 95% of jgy's actions, first in the form of wwx (please don't @ me about his reliability, this man's spotty memory is meme-worthy, contentious legislation pass through parliament with more alacrity than his self-awareness wrt his relationship with lan wangji), then through wwx's interpretation of nmj's resentment-fuelled recollection of the past as a literal fierce corpse, then through sect leader yao formulating his extemporaneous[2] magnum opus of a condemnation narrative about jin rusong's death, after the witness testimony about jgy's marriage to qin su and super fucked up murder of his father. like, I hope it is understood why no one should be using testimony from sect leader yao as the foundation of their understanding for any character in this novel, period. /rattles the bars of my enclosure, do not trust sect leader yao!! he is the weathervane conservative mp, any time you end up in agreement with him should make you p a u s e and re-evaluate.

my point: mdzs is a fucked up little world filled with fucked up cultivation world politics and crimes and atrocities, and our most reliable window into this world is, unfortunately, wei "oh yeah I forgot about that plot detail" wuxian. more than that, his priority in the narrative is understandably not focused on solving the mystery (read: not a mystery) of why all of jgy's motivations, actions, and decisions are measured against a standard set so much higher than the one the rest of the cultivation world has to contend with (spoilers, it's classism). it's up to the reader to spot the context clues, often in the form of bits of overheard commentary provided by the common people in the background of some other major plot event that is unfolding, or in an aside by wwx himself where he reflects, "huh, maybe it's my own bias impacting my ability to read this situation clearly." I'm paraphrasing here but you get what I'm saying.

tl;dr the least interesting discussion we could possibly have about jgy and wwx is whether either of them are Good or Bad Guys Deep Down, particularly when evidence for either of these positions are provided by the novel's unreliable narrators and witnesses, but for some reason that's the discussion the jgy antis seem hellbent on having, and it's boring.

--

[1] I cannot stress to you how microscopic my interest is in some bible study-adjacent debate on morality in a danmei novel about necromancy, revenge killing, and the willful desecration of human remains. the extent to which I just do not give a fuck about this particular brand of disc horse is vast and limitless.

[2] inserts the padme amidala and anakin skywalker square meme here like we all understand that sect leader yao's statement about jin rusong's murder is based on speculation and not even circumstantial evidence, right? ...we understand that, right?

[girlrandomstuff]

Leia Organa in Obi Wan Kenobi is the best thing

Okay I'm bringing this back because Leia in Kenobi has been reducted (by some fans) to “Leia and Anakin & Padme parallels” only.

When Leia in Obi Wan Kenobi has so much meaning, so much dept, so much importance than just being the rhyme of Anakin and Padme.

Her arc: Leia through all the episodes is just her taking her parents advices to the heart.

“There are many ways to lead, Leia, you just have to find yours” —Bail Organa

Then sh*t happens and Leia is dragged through this crussade with Obi Wan and she indeed finds many ways how she can become a leader and ends up adapting it into her own way of leadership.

“You get out what you put into it” —Breha Organa

In all this Leia, little by little, realize that she just needs will and effort to make a real change and help, everything else will come alone.

We can see such a beautiful arc in this 10 year old Leia Organa. She started as a little girl who doesn't know exactly what to do in general (not in a bad way, just normal doubt as anyone at any age could have), she seems a little bit conflicted about how to get to do things because she still pretty young and of course is understandable, but she ends up understanding her parents words, that she just needs to watch carefuly to what happens around and start taking steps.

Her arc in Kenobi keep beautifully proving that Leia is the best character in Star Wars.

Also this.

Her future: Bail and Breha's words being some kind of look into Leia's future and who she will become in a few years.

When Bail says “She's as important as he is” he's not overreacting, he's complete and absolubtly right, she became one of the most important members of the rebelion before and again after Bail and Breha's death, she striked the Empire down, she also mastered the force just like Luke, she was the one to bring the last (blood) Skywalker back to the light and who trained Rey and help her become the great jedi she became by the end of TROS.

When Bail tells her “you’ll probably be one of the best [senators]” again right, she became just as famous and respected senator like her father before her, she worked so hard alongside Mon Mothma to rebuild the Republic and she was one of the few to point the weakness and mistakes of it, the only one who really attacked the first order in the Senate.

When Breha says “I know who she's like” she's joking with Bail, telling him Leia is just like him, and she's quite right, because Leia is just the perfect mash up of them both, she really is just as much as Breha as she is just like Bail, she really took her leadership from both, being the one to found and fund the Resistence 30 years after the Rebelion and the Empire, being one of the strategic brains just like her father and leading with wisdom just like her mother.

Bonus: Obi Wan Kenobi saying Leia is the future of the galaxy, of the Rebelion, he was completly right

The deepening: the development of her relationship with Obi Wan is beautiful and it just adds so much depp not only to A New Hope but also to Leia naming her only son after him

[padme-amitabha]

In retrospect, it makes sense why GL spent so much time focusing on the romance in the movies. In fact, his earliest concepts in the prequels all involve Anakin and Padme when he could have just introduced her as someone Anakin had an affair with in later life or as a love interest. But the narrative does treat them as one. I think it's easier to understand and explain character choices if we view them as Anakin-Padme rather than Anakin and Padme. I think when you do see them as Anakin-Padme instead of Anakin and Padme there's not too much discourse about their characters (like why would Anakin/Padme choose each other or act this way etc etc).

Even when Anakin did some questionable things (like the Tusken massacre) Padme is always on his side unflinchingly. Always agreeing with him. Instead of at least asking his reasoning when he admits to these things, she says it's natural to feel that way. She seems like the voice of his psyche trying to rationalize it. The fact that she is always on his side is strange for a regular love interest. At least to me when I was watching the movies sometimes Padme's responses to him feels like what Anakin himself is thinking or already knows (like when he is ranting about Obi-Wan and she gently reminds him he means well which I think Anakin already knows so he calms down). That's why we barely see them fighting or disagreeing in the movies (save for Mustafar). And even the AOTC novelization highlights much of their similarities. Their differences lie in their roles but they are individuals who share core values. They value loyalty to people over duty (remember Padme wanted to let everything else go if Anakin came with her on Mustafar) and I have already delved into the similarities between Vader and Amidala and how they influenced each other.

Then there's the mystical nature of the force introduced in the OT that is similar to how Anakin at 9 knew for sure he would marry Padme. Wouldn't any love interest question that rather than agreeing with him? It's very likely he has a crush but Padme in her journal does believe the same. Padme even after their marriage is aware of his flaws but she still considers him too personal to ever hold him accountable for anything. We also see a lot of parallels of their deaths - when Anakin and Padme are simultaneously "dying". Although Anakin survives it, he refuses to be Anakin anymore and I think part of the reason Vader lived is because he dissociated and stopped viewing himself as Anakin because there was no Padme. Again, when he sees Luke doing the same for him as Padme does he realizes a part of Padme exists and he himself feels like he could be Anakin again (and also interestingly he dies soon enough after he becomes Anakin to join her with the Force). So, as long as he considered himself as Anakin there was always a Padme beside him - rationalizing him, supporting him, knowing all his flaws and loving and validating him. Vader was almost a ghost of Anakin - not as he used to be but Anakin nonetheless) and he is shown to be haunted by Padme's ghost (not the Padme he knew but Padme nonetheless). So when Anakin is afraid of losing her it can be a metaphor for losing himself - which he does by selling his soul to the devil (Palpatine).

Then we see an almost telepathic connection/force bond in ROTS novelization where they can hear each other's thoughts and send messages. They must be there in the story for a reason. And the even fire-water parallels for their funerals do establish the yin/yang aspect of their relationship. And it's beautiful to establish that, I think, as they would go on to make children who would save the galaxy.

I love that Lucas included mythology in Star Wars. Is it only based on Greek/Roman mythology though?

John Williams referred to Star Wars as a “cross-cultural mythology” and I completely agree with that.

In regards to Anidala, I can definitely see some parallels from Indian mythology. The concept of “Ardhagini” or soulmates/two halves of one soul is taken very seriously in Hinduism compared to other religions. Most (eastern) religions don’t see passionate love as a positive thing since it may be a distraction from the spiritual path while others are indifferent to it but attachment is always seen in a positive light in Hinduism (such as in The Ramayana) rather than showing that it has tragic consequences.

The concept of avatar or incarnation is mostly associated with Vishnu (God of the heavens) who is reborn into the world to restore balance in the universe (very much like Anakin) and in every lifetime, he falls in love with the avatar of his heavenly consort Lakshmi (the mother goddess of wealth, love and beauty). One of Lakshmi's epithets is Padmā, meaning ‘she who is mounted upon or dwelling in a lotus’. Well, most of her epithets are associated with a lotus, which is the meaning of Padme’s name. Naboo culture, in general, is very much based on Indian and South Asian culture so it’s not improbable that Indian mythology partly inspired the love story. Vishnu is also associated with the color blue since he’s the God of the heavens and the skies and the name Skywalker may also be inspired by that and the fact that Anakin is also frequently associated with the color blue (blue lightsaber, the blue side of the dice representing him in TPM).

Vishnu and Lakshmi fall in love at first sight as Rama and Sita because they are destined to be together in every lifetime, even though they are unaware that they are a divine couple in heaven. I think Anakin falling in love with Padme the moment he saw her in TPM is similar to that. Anakin immediately recognizes there’s something divine about Padme and he knows for certain she’s the one he’s going to marry. While this line did not make the cut in the movie, it is present in the script and also the novelization. While the gods in Greek/Roman mythology aren’t exactly known to be faithful, Hinduism gives great emphasis on fidelity and the fact that there is only one person destined for someone and it’s impossible to fall in love with a different soul.

The most well-known incarnation of Vishnu, Krishna, also falls in love with Radha, one of the Avatars of Lakshmi. Even though they marry different people in their lifetime (though Krishna did marry another avatar of Lakshmi since it is possible to have multiple avatars), they are considered to be spiritually married because they are equals and soulmates. The story of Krishna and Radha is one of the most well-known and transcendental romances in South Asia. There are also different interpretations of marriage and since worldly marriage refers to the union of two souls, it is quite different for them since they were one soul. Radha never consummated her marriage with her husband for what she shared with Krishna was an eternal and spiritual love that defied all social norms. Radha was also about 5 years older than Krishna which is why their (worldly) marriage was also discouraged by others but they had loved each other since they were children. In TPM, Anakin is in love with Padme and while Padme does not reciprocate his romantic feelings, she is certain that their fates are bound together (in Queen Amidala’s journal). She also tells Anakin her love for him is a puzzle - which may refer to the fact that it was inevitable and the will of the Force. Since Star Wars is heavily based on mythology, I always saw Anakin and Padme sharing the same kind of devotional love in the sense they were destined to be and they were truly soulmates who completed each other. Hence, we don’t ever see Clovis or other love interests or love triangles in the movies because that would be very unnecessary.

Krishna tells Radha he is her and she is him and they are considered to be the yin and the yang. They also represent different ideologies (such as Radha represents the human soul and Krishna the god, as well as other ideologies in Hinduism while some argue Radha wasn’t real and just the ideal feminine, other half of Krishna) so it is not just about two people. Krishna and Radha would often switch clothes too since they considered themselves to be the same person. Krishna would not be Krishna without Radha and in one sense, Anakin was not the same without Padme. I still believe Anakin and Vader is the same person and not different identities but Anakin lost his true identity after he lost Padme.

I don’t have a vast knowledge of Norse mythology but a follower pointed out there’s some connection with the name Skywalker here. There are some influences from Egyptian mythology too IMO since Anakin married Padme using the pseudonym of Set who is the Egyptian God of deserts, chaos, and destruction. His sister-wife Nepthys is associated with mourning, childbirth, and the dead, which would be fitting for Padme in ROTS.

[shinylitwick94]

Kenobi Ep.6 thoughts before the internet gets to me

.

Honestly? Almost absolutely perfect. Loved it to pieces.

I’ll need a couple of rewatches for it all to sink in, but a few thoughts:

- I did not expect them to actually let Obi-Wan get a clear win in the fight. Given the circumstances, I love it, it allows him to hit Vader enough that he ceases to be the monster for the audience and becomes Anakin again; Vader with the cracked mask and OW apologising had me in tears and Anakin somewhow simultaneously absolving him and making it worse; ‘Goodbye, Darth’  is a bigger burn than Mustafar

- Th fun action bits of the fight were also fun, great to see OW back in shape and kicking ass, in love with that stupid pose, you all know the one

-They’re doubling down HARD on the ‘Anakin made his own fucked up choices’ and I’m here for it - the entire purpose of Reva here is this basically, and like in the previous episode the parallels, while heavy handed, were well done;

- Reva was very good in this one and I loved the choice to have her face Luke alone, and choose to back down alone - there’s no one there to pressure her, no Vader, no OW, no Inquisitors - just her and this child and her choices. Predictable? Sure, but this entire show was predictable to anyone with half a brain but that doesn’t make it bad. It just means it’s delivering on beats it has clearly set up.

- Leia in what is basically a cross between her ANH outfit and a jedi outfit was wonderful; love the holster and what it symbolises in terms of her choices moving forward; seeing Bail and Breha was a delight; loved that we got to have some closure on Ben and Leia, even if it is all a little tinged with the tragedy of what will happen later (and of the past of course with OW’s words about Padme and Anakin)

-Owen and Beru defending the homestead! Loved it! Unfailingly brave those two, and good to hear Owen expressly claim Luke as his own

- Vader getting chewed out by Sheev for obsessing about Kenobi had me in stitches

- Owen and Ben somewhat reconciling was also good, and Obi-Wan in pristine jedi white robes was lovely to see;

- ‘Hello there’ was done in such a way that I can’t even complain about that bit of fanservice

- Qui-Gon was another bit of expected fanservice, which was ok, though I do wish we’d had a little more time here, but I understand why they chose to place it at the end of OW’s journey, it makes more sense that way

- I know there are rumours going around about a second season, but to me this is great as it is and tells a nice, complete, cohesive story. I would prefer if it is left alone, but I understand in the current media climate that won’t necessarily be possible.

Nitpicks that don’t matter but angry youtubers who make money from rageclicks will care a lot about I’m sure:

- floating rocks attack looked a little silly, i wished Obi-Wan and Vader had talked a little more, OW gets to Tattooine a liiittle too quickly, Luke sees Reva’s lightsaber, but then he hits his head 5 minutes later and will forget about it obviously,