#i think the show's been on a decline after s2

[ginger-grimm]

MY THOUGHTS ON THE 4TH AND FINAL SEASON OF TUA: SPOILERS AHEAD

Sharing just cause I need to get it off my chest. I haven't shared opinions on TV shows in a while because most new stuff is just so uninteresting but I've watched this show since s1 first came out, almost. Opinions will be all over the place, don't feel like ordering them per episode.

Season was too short, everyone is well aware of it, but the storyline was so cluttered that it just didn't hit the same

Character motivation and characterization of everyone was all over the place in general. Why are we wasting a whole episode on a coupling no one was going to like? Why is the family split up for the majority of this final season?

I hate pretty much everyone's ending. Luther should have been given Viktor's storyline with Reggie to have his dilemma come full circle. I enjoyed him having a bit more comedic relief as opposed to his annoying attitude in the earlier seasons but there is so much he could have done besides being comedic fodder with Diego. Like, hello, he had a wife that went missing and I guess he never actually looked for her? Or he did and he gave up and got over it just like that? I wouldn't know since she was mentioned twice and only in a wistful tone as if she died. Put him with Reggie to resolve his daddy issues finally. Literally anything else. Diego spent the season in an unappy marriage with a shitty job, essentially chasing his glory days once again and he died with zero closure with his wife and the mother of his children. Allison's husband left her and she fell back into old patterns with her daughter and never really made up with her family and none of her issues are resolved. Klaus spent the season with a pointless villain who took up way too much screentime. Five took his brother's wife and was entirely out of character this season. Why is he nice guying after Lila when there is an apocalypse around the corner? Ben died having done literally nothing this season. None of his self conciousness was resolved, there was no real depth given to him and his storyline with Jennifer came and went. Viktor spent the entirety of the season with Reggie for some reason when really he should have been reconsiling with his family and mending his relationship with them. Lila died on the outs with her husband and in a weird "relationship" with her brother-in-law and also being entirely out-of-character. It's truly a disservice to everyone in the maincast.

I didn't mind the ending in general, I figured they would have to sacrifice themselves to fix everything they fucked up once and for all. I only question how Claire, Grace, Coco, and Carlos are alive even if they were "saved" by the trainstation. Their parents never existed and therefore they shouldn't either.

Wish they would have explored the trainstation more. It's a cool device but where did it come from and why now?

Gene and Jean were such wasted villains. Again, blaming it on the season being too short and too much focus on unnecessary storylines but the concept was there, they just squandered it.

What was the point of Reggie and Abigail? What is Abigail's real motivation? Is she evil or just ambivilent towards it all? I guess I enjoy that she wanted to fix her mistake but why wouldn't they give these two at least a flashback to show where they came from and how they got here?

The vibes this season in genral were off and I can't totally explain why despite the season being rushed and too short.

I honestly tuned out during the whole Five and Lila thing because, yeah, it was gross and it sucked and it ruined three great characters. I'm honestly moreso just questioning Lila as a mother. I get she was unhappy with Diego, I figured this would happen once they got married and became parents, but she genuinely seemed to love her kids. So when she gets lost in a subway for seven years she should be fighting like hell to get back to her kids instead of fucking her brother-in-law, right? Right?!

My favorite part was honestly the relationship that Klaus had with Claire. It just feels to me like everyone else was so far removed from her for some reason despite most of them being close enough to show up to Grace's birthday party?

The stakes were there but they essentially poofed away by the end of episode five.

I liked the ending to be honest, it was pretty serene and again, I think it makes sense for them to die to save the world, since they are the reason the world keeps ending. It was also nice to see the continuation of characters we saw appear throughout the series (minus Ray and the Sparrows).

Also enjoyed getting to see a young Umbrella Academy one last time.

All in all the season was not good, but I enjoyed getting to see the cast and characters again, even if they weren't entirely themselves. Also the ending wasn't horrible, so that's sometimes. I think it could have been made infinitely better if they had taken more time and if they had maybe tried to get up to ten episodes to mellow everything out and properly end everyone's storylines in a more satisfying way.

[dimplyowl]

Okay has anyone written any meta about the differences between our two first mates, Auntie and Izzy? Because I just finished rewatching s2 and was struck by how similar their situations are, and their temperaments, and yet how very completely opposite they behave in nearly identical situations.

Cause like. Both their captains are insanely infamous, badass pirates who have an image to uphold, Ed as Blackbeard obviously, and Zheng as the pirate queen who conquered China. They both become romantically interested in someone who honestly has no business being a pirate: oluwande and Stede, both described as soft, not masculine, yes in the end willing to do violence if necessary, but it’s not their preferred way of handling conflict. People who, maybe rightly, the respective first mates consider potential threats to their captain and crew.

But just the way that auntie handles the situation compared to Izzy. Auntie doesn’t meddle. She is vocal about what she thinks of Oluwande, about her concerns about Zheng being distracted, “compromised”, not focused on the mission. But she’s ultimately acting as an advisor for Zheng, which is exactly what her role is. She doesn’t try to control Zheng, she doesn’t remove Zheng’s agency, she doesn’t threaten Zheng or tell her that she’s pathetic for mooning over Oluwande (I know we never get to see any mooning onscreen but cmon, there has to have been some). When the Revenge crew escapes her ship, and she knows she fucked up, Auntie doesn’t run salt in the wound the way that Izzy would take pleasure in doing. She starts to say “I told you so,” and Zheng very firmly tells her “Don’t”, establishes a boundary that Auntie respects, because ultimately Zheng knows she fucked up and she’s not a child who needs to be taught a lesson or managed. Auntie respects her and her personhood.

And compare that to Izzy, who consistently manipulated Ed to get in between him and Stede, threatened Stede’s life on multiple occasions, essentially mutinied against him, sent the cops after them, and then berated and threatened Ed over being heartbroken.

Like, even down to nearly dying. Auntie has a severe gunshot wound in her shoulder that she will clearly die from if she doesn’t accept help. She’s spent the entire season being tough, unwilling to show weakness, equating softness to weakness, but in the end she decides to accept help, to accept a little bit of softness, to change and accept that softness can be good. Izzy in contrast, declines help, knowing that he’s done. He knows he can’t fit in to this new world, this new piracy, where people can be soft and vulnerable and still fucking kick ass. He’s been resistant and outwardly aggressive to this idea, and he chooses to die rather than accept that softness. Ofmd is ushering in a new era of pirating, and Izzy doesn’t fit in it, and doesn’t want to fit in it, and ultimately, narratively, that’s why Auntie survives and Izzy doesn’t.

[azfellesquire]

Is Crowley already the new Supreme Archangel?

A few oversights made millennia ago, and suddenly we have a demon archangel on our hands.

Caution: I came up with and wrote this in the last few hours so potentially crackpot theory ahead. Apologies if this has been proposed before, it’s not one I’ve seen. And I’ve seen A LOT.

So supposedly the miracle Aziraphale and Crowley performed together was something only the mightiest of archangels could have done. Everyone assumes it was Crowley because they think he was a high ranking Angel formerly. Or that it was the two of them together. Or that Jimbriel amplified it. But what if…

“There is always a supreme archangel”

Michael says this in S2E1 when talking with Uriel about who is in charge now that Gabriel was missing. Gabriel was removed from office in the trial we hear, he’s no longer Supreme Archangel. If so, Michael’s statement would imply that as soon as Gabriel’s removal happened, a new archangel already existed. Now obviously the Metatron is making a show of choosing Aziraphale as the new Supreme Archangel. But is that within his power to do so? Or is he suggesting working with Crowley for a different reason, possibly unknown even to him?

“I am the only first-order archangel in the room, or you know, the universe”

During the “2nd Armageddon-that-wasn’t” discussion, Gabriel says these words. As he says them, it cuts (ominously isn’t the right word here, pointedly maybe?) to Crowley leaning against the desk, and lingers there just a bit too long.

“How do you know it wasn’t me?”

Another clue to the powerful angel Crowley was. It was clearly said in a teasing manner throw Shax off. But much like the barrel of red herring in the intro, is it a red herring to something else?

“Can you send lightning bolts and get them to report back to you?”

The only other time we see someone calling lightning or using it is, you guessed it: Gabriel in S1 on the airbase to port in and out. I’ve read the theory that Angel!Crowley was the lord of lightning, which I’m not opposed to, but to me this is another link.

“Never change their passwords”

We have one HUGE instance of Heaven being sloppy in their record keeping (passwords), and lax in their security protocol (Crowley bopping about with Muriel). Whereas Hell is meticulous in their record keeping, as shown by the bills, admissions process, and S1 contract.

So what if: when Gabriel was stripped of the title, a new Supreme Archangel was automatically appointed. Except instead of someone else, because heaven neglected to double-check their logs after The Fall, Crowley was still on the books as next in line? This would absolutely play into “God playing games with the universe” and “just think what would have happened if we’d been at all competent” themes running through both seasons. It would also follow the theory that people noticed Aziraphale and Crowley were on the “wrong” side for much of the season. It would also explain a few continuity errors along the way (how did Crowley know Muriel’s rank? He knows it through the knowledge automatically given to the Supreme Archangel).

“Funny ol’ world, isn’t it?”

Caveats and potential weaknesses:

I have no idea how this fits into the fact that S3 will be the actual continuation the Neil and Terry planned, as to my knowledge S2 was essentially a “Neil’s chaotic angsty ineffable husbands fanfic”. But clearly S2 has to play well into the plan for S3. I also kind of hate my theory because Crowley specifically declined to be an angel again, and his hand has been forced too often already.

Now I am a staunch advocate of the body-swap theory, and I’m not sure how this would play into that. Does Metatron know? Does he think he has the power to appoint? Does he think the title went to Aziraphale because of the miracle? Does he try to get Crowley to come back with Aziraphale to exploit his power? Does he know about the body swap in S1 and if so, was he trying to trigger another one to get the right “soul” to heaven?

There are a few other things I haven’t figured out how to incorporate into this post yet. I’ll try to put them into coherent thoughts in the next few days, but thought I’d throw this to the wolves universe for the time being.

Thought 1: “How have your lot managed to stay in charge all this time?” “I’m not so sure we have.”

Thought 2: I need to do (another) rewatch before I nail this one down (such a sacrifice I tell you), but does Crowley have a visceral reaction like he does in S1 to being called “good” in the current, post Gabriel-removal timeset? Obv in Edinburgh/Job, but that’s in the past. He denies it, sure (with Jim), but he straight up flashes a smile and thanks Mrs. Sandwich when she says “You’re a good lad” (after the denial).

2.1: No one calls him “good” in present day except these two instances. Vast difference in the visceral reactions of season 1 and flashbacks.

Thought 3: Crowley is the only one who can trigger Jimbriel’s recall memory.

[avelera]

I have seen some discourse going around about how Mel never manipulated jayce. Do you agree? And what are your views considering mel?

I say this because I think that she did kind of manipulate jayce in the beginning but genuinely ended up falling for him in the end. I mean she had to genuinely care and love him if she ended up subconsciously saving him with magic.

I think that a lot of people from what I have seen were pissed at season 2 ep8 when jayce got into the argument with Mel but I thought it was quite understandable that he reacted the way he did especially after what he went through. That being said I still felt bad for mel because she literally lost everything and was ready to open up to him.

Sorry for the ramble

I think a lot of the Mel/Jayce discourse is being done in bad faith right now, mostly by people who are anti-Jayce/Viktor rather than pro Mel/Jayce for whatever reason. I would point out, that canonically Mel and Jayce are not together at the end of the show and they also canonically (in my opinion) break up. So it's fine if you just really like the ship or wish things had gone differently, but it should be acknowledged that any Mel/Jayce fic outside the brief time they're together in the show is as much an AU as any Jayvik fic where they got together earlier.

As for the manipulation, I mean yeah, it canonically happened. There shouldn't be a debate. Jayce calls her out on in it 2.08 and Mel doesn't deny it, she just gives her reasons for why she manipulated him. Ostensibly it was to help him and Hextech too but she absolutely used sex as a tool of persuasion with deliberate intent to use it for those ends, she absolutely flirted with Jayce to ingratiate herself to him, she absolutely called him an investment (though there is a slight plothole on how he knows that, it was never said in his hearing), and even if she poses it to herself as helping him she also used those persuasive power to nudge him towards Hextech weapons which he categorically did not want to make, so her own ends superseded his benefit or preference in canonical instances.

For those who deny manipulation took place, go back and watch the opera house scene in S1. She plays him like a fiddle. Indeed, the expert violinist on stage (playing an actual Stradivarius irl, btw) is symbolically depicted as Mel's counterpart, showing how expertly she is manipulating the situation, and Jayce.

Now, I think you can chart how much Mel was with Jayce for her own ends vs. affection for him by her support for Hextech weaponry. When she's pushing for it, she's using him for her own House's goals. When she drops Hextech weapons as an issue and instead supports Jayce's vision for it (in S2) that's when she's acting out of affection for him. It's tragic that her affection for him grows while his declines so sharply as a result of his ordeal and finally realizing the early manipulations (kinda like that trope where someone dates another person for a bet, then falls for them, and then the other person learns about the bet and breaks up with them, only this one without a happy reunion after).

Their relationship is tragic. It's a tragedy. And it ends tragically with them apart and us left wondering if they could have made it together under other circumstances. "What could have been?" is an overarching theme in Arcane, and it is our own choices, our own ambition and greed that get in the way of getting what we need instead of what we want. Every single character is built around these principles, with the happy endings being those who get what they need instead of what they want, and the tragic ones (like Mel) getting what they want (power, to be an official Medarda as she says in her first scene) and not what she needs, which is anyone around her to share it with. You can feel the loss but you have to also acknowledge how she ended up there and why she narratively can't earn Jayce's love after what she did at the start of the relationship.

[kravchikfreak]

I'm sorry if this ask is coming out of nowhere, but I have been looking for posts that talk about how S2 has declined in quality and there have been virtually NONE. Even tags like 'arcane critical' or 'anti arcane' don't show up even though I know there are posts that are tagged with them. I'm losing my mind. Has nobody else noticed this downgrade? The ideas could have been good, but they were not executed well and the whole thing reads like they wrote it really quickly without any real editing and then rushed to get it out. It feels hollow, like we're seeing a botched or unfinished version of what it was supposed to be. What kind of random ass shit is it that an enforcer comes up to Vi and says, "cait said good things about you," and Vi is just like wow you're right, I'm sold! Even though she already knows Cait has a high opinion of her and that wasn't the issue in the first place! Also who was that random homeless man? Why am I supposed to care about these people? Fans get defensive about the pacing and argue that s1 did a lot in a minimal amount of time too, but I don't think they realize that pacing has to do with making something feel organic. Vi's heel turn into becoming an enforcer was not organic. Viktor's two second goodbye was not organic. Both of these things could have made sense if they'd given these moments even just a little more effort or care. There were so many unnecessary scenes that could have been cut out to give more time to things that desperately needed it (like caitlyn's sad wordless montage about her mom. Why did it drag out so long? Her grief is apparent in every other scene. We did not need an entire abstract slideshow of her making various sad expressions.) There's also the animation. The animation is leagues above a regularly animated show, but if you look closely it is actually not as good as s1. There is less detail, the lighting of the background doesn't always match the characters, and there are moments where the lips don't always sync with their voices. These are minor things that I wouldn't usually care about, but for a multi-million dollar show like Arcane? Riot games recently laid off a whole slew of its creative team, too, and I wonder if they've been making similar cuts before that. It would certainly explain the drop in quality. I wouldn't put it past corporate greed to nerf one of the most groundbreaking animated shows in modern media if they thought they could profit more by cutting corners.

I'm sorry to ramble in your inbox as a random stranger, but it boggles my mind that there are so few people mentioning s2's flaws (not including rage bait, which is annoying because it only delegitamizes real criticisms and discussions.) I feel like I'm screaming in the void like is nobody else seeing this shit??

well hello there! first of all, "arcane critical" is what i was looking for when i was writing that post. gonna put it in tags now before i forget

secondly, i love asks! so no need to apologize. thirdly it's a bummer you went under anonym, i don't believe you get notifs for your anonymous asks, so unless you actually hang out on my blog regularly there's a chance you won't see me appreciating your thoughts and agreeing with you (expect for the animation part, cause for me it was great, i have no questions on that regard. but for each their own. i'm a big fun of the dragon prince first season's animation and still sad they get rid of their 13fps style, so...)

anyway, i got bored at the beginning of my rumbling that time and didn't get into some deep analysis but yes, the first season also had events to go fast and forward, but at the same time they made sense. it wasn't rush or dragged, every scene had a meaning and weight

YES to the burial scene. like i get it, it was drawn pretty and it was sad and grey for cait but my god how many hours can we watch vi going away from 317 different angles? i was actually shocked to see her at cait's, cause after 10 minutes of her hiding in the crowd and leaving before cait saw her i was legit sure the show tried to tell us they broke up for now and won't see each other for a while

and it all feels so odd, as if on the one hand writers had too little allowed episodes to work with their ideas, like they came up with all these important story points but had no more screen time to add actual story development between the points, cause the season is like 10 episodes too short to fit a full coherent story. but on the other hand they have too much unused screen time, like they wrote only 5 episodes but they had to make 9 so now we will just fill the equivalent of 4 episodes of free time with mute repetitive long scenes

who the fuck is that mute lizard cop? is he actually mute? or there were no budget on one more voice actor? what's his problem? why he always looks like he's mad at everyone? should i even care he's always displeased? does he even matter? if no, why he has so much screen time and close-up shots? if yes, why he has no meaning or story or character or name? i swear to god, in the first season that one future-junkie dude had more of a meaning and weight in his two minutes scene than these lizard cop and the new jinx's sister during two episodes

and it all would've been fine, really, if it was the first season, or one of these already bad shows that you don't really expect much of. but arcane was a masterpiece, and also we've been waiting for it for three years. so it's the feeling that we know how GOOD it can be, and the feeling that it just chose not to

w....wait... what if they also tried to do great? and failed to do good in the process

or maybe, as you said, just some internal kitchen shit. i never actually follow media creation stuff and staff so maybe that's just it. still not make it all better for me as a viewer who was too excited to learn at 1 am that the act dropped and stayed up until 7am to make sure to watch it before getting to sleep

HEY THANK YOU for giving me opportunity to rumble about it again

[xlostsoulsfound]

I don't think Blitz is a bad character

**SPOILERS** For all of Helluva boss  I don't think Blitz is a bad person as much as everyone makes him out to be. Remember that these are all my options, and if you disagree with them, that's fine! To start, in the latest episode S2, E10. When Blitz was having the flashbacks? I don't know if you would call it that but when he was all the times he had felt like he hurt/made people hate him. When it showed Cash, raising his hand. We can assume it was to hit Blitz, and from what we have seen of Cash's personality we can assume he would hit Blitz frequently. More than likely from the smallest things too. Personally, that's just the type of person Cash seems to me. Also when Paimon offered to buy Blitz Cash let Blitz go rather easily. What I'm getting at is that a lot of his 'I'm not good enough, and never will be' Trauma came from his childhood.  We can also gather from what we have seen from the show he feels as if other people's love is conditional. Because his whole "relationship" with Stolas was started over Blitz burrowing the book from Stolas. And Stolas got sex/sexual favors from Blitz. When Millie was going to decline the client in the latest episode, blitz pulled out the unconditional support paper. It was Millie or Moxxie would have to poke one of the circles. Where he wouldn't be their third on one of their dates. Though I'm sure there are many more scenes in the show that he has to do things to feel like he's doing enough to be loved. But those are the only two that are coming to my mind now.

Throughout the show, we have seen Blitz trying to prove himself worthy. As in his company I.M.P., since Blitz is an IMP, they are one of the lowest classes in hell or other words, the working class, as they have put it in the show and the helluva boss wiki. He felt as if his work wasn't good enough and he had to prove himself to everyone who looked down on him. This can also have added to his 'I'm not good enough and never will be' Trauma but he does his best not to show it because he wants people to believe he is good enough to be his boss. Also just adding onto this there have been so many times when Blitz has been uncomfortable. As in Stolas calling Blitz Blitzy, Stolas talking down to Blitz constantly, and Blitz telling Stolas not to try to fuck him when they went to loo-loo land and Stolas just taking it as a joke, or when Stolas called Blitz "Big dick Blitzy" Even If it was never outright said he was uncomfortable you could tell he was.  Blitz does have a big fear of abandonment, as in truth seekers when he and Moxxie were high. Moxxie was going up the large stairs 'Does it seem like a recurring thing that you alienate your toxic routine? I don't know eventually everyone goes 'cause you're thoughtless and cruel and you'll end up alone.' further proving my point that he feels like everyone is going to leave him in the end. He tries to keep everyone at a distance, so he doesn't hurt them. But in doing that he just does the thing he never wanted to do. Just like with Veronika he up and left her after she said she confessed her feelings to Blitz and got a tattoo of his name on her arm. Which he got scared of and ran away. Just like when Barbie disowned Blitz which we can assume she disowned him because Blitz killed their mother. Though it was never said in the show this is why, but we can just assume this for the time begin. Then most likely after her death Barbie ran away disowning Blitz to get as far away from Blitz as she could. This just furthers my point of blitz having a fear of abandonment. 

Blitz has self-image issues, if you look in his apartment at the wall. You can see all the pictures of him being scratched out. We can conclude that he doesn't like himself, which with everything that we know about Blitz is true. Even though his words 'I don't want to be with way not forever' and 'I destroy everything I destroy everyone I make everyone's lives worse' added to his self-image issues. He doesn't like who he is as a person. 

He has a lot of self-destructive and impulsive behavior. For when he went to Bee's party and got drunk to wash away all his problems from his failed date at Ozzie's. Or how he has so many exes which from what we know of Blitz he probably went through a depressive episode and went out and had sex with a bunch of different people so he could feel something other than just pain. To add to this blitz has a problem with keeping friendships. Like when he told Millie she was his first real friend. We can assume all his other friends had left him of his behaviors. Plus with his relationship with Stolas, Blitz rejects Stolas's love because he doesn't think Stolas could ever love him. Especially since Stolas is royal and Blitz is the working class. 

He has a lot of anger issues. Like when he was drunk and yelled at Dennis for seemingly doing nothing besides saying his name. This could just be from the alcohol. But still goes off on other people rather easily. Just like when the I.M.P. were outside and their client was rushed off to the hospital, Blitz went off of Moxxie. (Which was understandable, but still just showing more signs of Blitz having anger issues.) Or in full moon, blitz going off on Stolas when they had that fight. However, it was Blitz feeling as if he was abandoned by Stolas when Stolas gave Blitz the crystal. With knowing blitz is understandable why he had that reaction. But still, he went off on Stolas. Or in  Apology Tour he yelled at Stolas when they were walking through the garden. 

Blitz also blames himself for so many things. Like the fire, he was the one who made the person carrying the cake slip and the candles that were on fire made the tent go up in flames. Causing Fizz to be caught in the fire and Blitz not help him. Also, his mother died in the fire. So he blames himself for everything that happened. It wasn't his fault it was an accident but in his mind, he doesn't see it that way, he just blames himself.  He also hates himself more than he hates anyone else. Take example in the previous paragraph, he blames himself for the fire. Making him hate himself for the fire. For losing his mother, one of the people he loved and cared for most in hell. From what we have seen he had a fairly close relationship with her. Like in ghostfuckers, he ran to her when he had a bad dream. When we have bad dreams we tend to the person we feel most comfort in. Which for him was his mother. Also because of that, he feels as if no one can love him. That's why he pushes everyone away, feels like Stolas could never love him. That no one can ever care for him, That he doesn't deserve to be cared for or loved by anyone. Take for example he tried to connect with his sister Barbie after finding her again just to be rejected by her. He's scared that if he ever loves someone they will just leave him. That's why he leaves people first, Because in his mind if he leaves first then they can't hurt him. But deep down he just wants to be loved and cared for but he's too scared because of everything he's been through.  I honestly think that him adopting Loona was one of the best things he had done. Because he was probably in a really bad place in his life when he adopted Loona. Loona who was in the same position as him. She was in a bad adoption center and the woman Blitz was talking to was making Loona out to be a bad person who would never amount to anything. I think Blitz saw himself in her, and that's why he got her. Even though at times it seems like Loona hates/dislikes Blitz, she loves him. She just like Blitz has a hard time showing how she feels. But does truly loves him just in her way. 

I just think Blitz has saved everyone in I.M.P. Blitz asked Moxxie to join him when they were both in jail. He helped Moxxie escape and then they started I.M.P. Then when he met Millie she had just taken I.M.P's hit so maybe she wasn't doing too well on her own. Though I could be completely wrong that's what I got from that scene. So I think in a big way he saved both of them and Loona. Plus in doing so Moxxie and Millie got together causing them to get married. They would probably have never got together if it wasn't for Blitz. Even if they do have issues at times I think they see each other as a family. Because Moxxie and Blitz both had bad dads and both of their mothers died. Loona's family is unknown but we can assume they either abandoned her or they had died, Even though Millie's family seems rather normal. Lin did seem rather disappointed a few times throughout Harvest Moon. So I think they see each other as a family. They all care for each other, and even if Blitz doesn't feel like he can be loved, it's very clear that Millie, Moxxie, and Loona all care for him and he very much so cares for them. Even if he has a hard time showing it.  Remember these are all of my options on Blitz. I am not saying his 100% perfect and does everything right. If you read this would have very clearly seen that I am not saying he's perfect. He's very much so not, I think he's an extremely relatable character to a lot of people. He has a lot of issues that people tend to overlook because they just want to see Blitz as a bad character. Especially when it comes to him and Stolas. A lot of people I have seen tend to victimize Stolas, which Stolas is not this perfect character either, he has done a lot of wrongs himself too. I will talk about that another time. But overall I think Blitz I a really good character and how they portray him is well and very relatable to a lot of people because of how he acts. Maybe this will help other people view Blitz differently and stop blaming him for everything. 

[nierly-amazing]

Nier Automata anime Episode 21 disjointed thoughts:

Spoilers, obviously

It had a few good moments but overall I was disappointed in this episode, more so than the last 2. I've been enjoying the anime, especially early s2 immensely but it's gone downhill so fast. It's extra annoying because most of the issues I have could have been fixed/avoided really easily.

The good bits:

THEY THANKED DEVOLA AND POPOLA! After all that time they finally thanked them! (Though I wish they had more small moments of them being dicks to them in past episodes).

FUCK YEAH JACKASS running the truck right into the room!

YEAH THE TWINS KICKED ASS TOO!

OH NO THEY KILLED JACKASS BUT that's probably how she wanted to go tbh

I do think the anime handled the whole fear thing being the machine children's downfall better than the game since they actually did some lead-up instead of Pascal dropping the info after they all died. So that's another good thing. Buuuut...

The not-so-good bits:

I knew immediately A2's idea to send the kids to the resistance camp was a stupidly terrible idea. Idk why they didn't try finding somewhere else to hide them but I expected them to simply lead hostile machines there rather than infect the camp with a ZOMBIE virus. Really? Zombies? Shambling groaning zombies? The whole reason logic viruses are so scary was how strong they make androids and how they'll just attack everything until they fall apart.

I get the narrative reasoning that Lily offering to shelter them ended up being everyone's downfall, but I ended up being more annoyed because of how dumb it was that A2 sent them there. Seems like an easy fix too, Lily could have called in end of last episode after the camp heard the explosions and offered to shelter them herself, then Pascal could have worried about leading enemies to them and Lily assured him they could handle it.

(me) ^

9S has basically no screen time anymore; we can't really feel his descent as well as we did in game. For the most part things are just happening to him rather than him actively doing things. Like, instead of dumping the 2E reveal in the first S2 episode they could have slowly fed it to us over the course of these episodes. They could have made it more fucked up by having the machine network torment 9S with bits of 2E hints or had the damage to his body scramble his mind in a way that he remembers flashes of his past lives/deaths. I think the game's definitely handled showing his mental decline in isolation while still being a sympathetic character better than the anime is doing.

(cymbal ism)

I sort of like how they put the flight unit in the god box and forced 9S to see it but I feel it would have been more impactful if they had a moment where he almost found it in the flooded city but passed it up because he was distracted and didn't realize it was 2B's unit. And oh look he passed out again.

No lunar tears no 2B memorial? Give him a chance to breathe and have some sort of positive or bittersweet interaction. In the game he still interacted with other androids and helped them but the only interaction we got in the anime was him slapping a flower from that one memorial quest guy's hand.

Pascal's 180 is still ehhh for me. The whole thing that made the Goliath fight in game so impactful was he was holding onto his pacifism till the very end until he had no other option. But in the anime he went berserk the moment there was even the possibility of danger. They didn't even know the hostile machines were a threat to the village when the pods told them. They had time to evacuate and it would have been a lot more fucked up (in a good way) if they were followed and picked off and then pascal went berserk when it was only the children left.

One child killed all the others in fear instead of it being a whole group fear effort. And then he bit pascal with a zombie virus? Pascal blew up when A2 wasn't even there??? And she barely even reacted when his arm shrapnel almost hit her. I get that they have to deal with the lack of player input choosing what to do but that could have easily been fixed with a scene cut right before A2 makes a choice.

They could have written it so it showed signs of them all trying to escape but were unable to. Maybe had one of them still alive because they failed to hit their core and explained what happened or had some sort of other visual hints as to what happened. maybe frantic carving on the walls or something idk.

But then again, patient 0 being the one 9S was extra suspicious about and almost hacked back in episode 5 is pretty interesting. Shows he was technically right all along about them being a threat, but for the wrong reasons. Still they probably could have merged the two ideas together to work better. I'd like to know if the machine network infected them on purpose or if it was their own fear that caused them to snap. If the latter then they could have also had the infected resistance react differently than being stereotypical zombies. They could have picked up on the fear and all went hysterical fighting and shooting each other because the virus overwhelmed them with fear and they were trying to put themselves and each other 'out of their misery'.

But then again again I don't really like how they made the disabled one the one that went crazy and ate everyone. Idk, they could have handled it better.

The whole resistance dying is definitely sadder than in game. They both work in their own ways so I can't really say one is better than the other. It hurt but I didn't hate it. I want to see what they have planned for killing everyone in this version before I make my final judgment.

I do hope they have a scene where 9S finds the village and feels bad because that was a nice bit in game to show he still cared about them despite going on his rampage with the other machines.

I really hope the tower episodes are good, I can forgive this fumbling if the next few episodes are bangers.

[addictedtostorytelling]

i’m sure you’ve written about this before, but i would love your perspective on the age-gap between GSR - not in a ‘is it good or bad?’ sense, just in how it affects their relationship.

because on one hand, i think that on a day-to-day basis they don’t think about it at all. (particularly once we reach the end of the show, when sara is in her mid 40s and grissom in his late fifties, the difference is pretty much negligible). but on the other, we have sara saying she ‘looks for validation in inappropriate places’ and grissom’s ‘younger woman’ monologue in butterflied. when they meet she’s a student and he’s a professor; then later on he’s the boss and she’s the subordinate.

personally to me GSR is much more a ‘kindred spirits’ relationship than a ‘the boss and the hot young woman’ relationship but at the same time that fifteen-year difference is definitely there. i’m just interested in how you feel that informs - or doesn’t inform - their whole relationship.

hi, anon!

so i have two different metas that touch on the age gap issue:

this one conjectures on whether or not the age gap plays a role in grissom’s initial reluctance to be with sara.

this one considers whether or not the age gap is ever a problem once grissom and sara are actually together.

more discussion after the "keep reading," if you're interested.

__

to answer your question more specifically:

i, like you, tend to believe the age gap plays more of a role in their dynamic before they get together than it does once they’re actually a couple.

as discussed in the posts linked above, i think prior to when they start dating, sara is somewhat concerned grissom will look down on her for being “immature,” and she is so largely because she misjudges grissom’s level of romantic/sexual experience, based on his age. she sees him as this dashing, worldly older man who knows his way around the block and worries she will come across as some naïve, young ingénue by comparison. she doesn’t want grissom to think she doesn’t know what she’s doing, which is why she uncomplainingly tolerates a lot of his more maddening behaviors (and particularly his chronic unwillingness to commit)—i.e., for the sake of convincing him she’s “cool” and can “keep up.”

meanwhile, on grissom’s side of things, he does harbor fears about how his and sara’s age gap might affect her willingness to stay with him in the long term, were they ever to get together. while he is fairly assured of her feelings for him at present, when they’re officially unattached—because she’s not exactly quiet about them, after all—he can’t help but wonder what might happen if he and sara actually were to end up as a committed couple someday. sure, she may be fine with the idea of being with an older man now, when he’s in his forties, but what about as he ages? as a twenty- and thirtysomething, issues like declining health and mobility probably aren’t even really on sara’s radar at the moment, but grissom worries someday they might have to be, on his account. particularly as he grapples with hearing loss during s2/s3, he can’t help but picture a day when he is elderly and potentially disabled and sara is still middle-aged and on-the-go. how would she react if he could no longer keep up with her? would she still want him then? and especially if there were things she might want in her life he (due to age) might be unable to give her—like children or adventure or even just an active lifestyle? he has always been afraid if sara gets close to him, she will eventually recognize his inadequacies and her love for him will cool, and his concerns about his age definitely factor in to that fear for him.

*cue lana del rey singing “will you still love me when i'm no longer young and beautiful?” here*

of course, in addition to their hang-ups regarding how the age gap might affect any potential relationship between them from within, i also believe, prior to getting together, they—and i'm talking 99% about grissom here—have some concerns about how it also might come into play from without, specifically in terms of optics.

grissom knows how older men dating women young enough to be their daughters tend to be looked at by society at large, so while he is himself no larry king or mick jagger, he’s fearful he might be seen as one, were he and sara to get together. (just check out his wince when catherine and brass’s mockery of the may-december couple in episode 03x03 “let the seller beware” hits a bit too close to home for him.) he’s also aware of how such a relationship might negatively affect sara’s reputation, especially on a professional level, and is loath to subject her to that particular brand of slander.

while on sara’s end of things, she is less concerned with “how things appear,” she also isn’t entirely oblivious to the fact grissom does care about that kind of stuff, especially after she overhears his monologue at the end of episode 04x12 “butterflied” and so has to care herself by proxy; she gets he has some serious inhibitions about being with a younger woman, which makes her somewhat cautious about how she might be perceived in relation to him on his behalf—which is at least part of why she is willing to keep their relationship on the dl for so long once they finally do get together (i.e., to spare him of having to confront his fears for her sake).

of course, all of the above said, i think these fears are eventually allayed for the both of them.

in sara’s case, she gets over her fears of being "too green for grissom" because she finally realizes where grissom is concerned, his age does not necessarily translate to experience. while he may have fifteen years on her, he isn’t at all the don juan she had initially imagined him to be. just as she has to this point never had a serious long-term relationship, neither has he.

hell, he may even have less sexual experience than she does!

hearing his confession to dr. lurie during episode 04x12 “butterflied” offers her some first hints as to the fact he has no more idea what he’s doing in love than she does, but, frankly, i think the thing which really helps her to place her old misconceptions regarding him to bed is simply just being with him, for realsies.

once she finally starts seeing him up close (and especially in intimate contexts), i think baby girl finally realizes just how artless grissom is when it comes to romance, and contrary to what he might fear, she isn’t disappointed by his general lack of experience but rather charmed by it and even relieved. for so long, she had thought he was playing chess while she was playing checkers, but now she realizes he was never really (purposefully) playing any game at all; he was just fumbling along.

and upon coming to that conclusion, i think she is no longer daunted by him being older because, frankly, it doesn’t matter—because it’s not like he has had decades and decades of experiences she hasn’t. he is literally just figuring things out in real time alongside her, which is very comforting to know.

then, on grissom’s side of things, i think the thing which helps him overcome his fears about sara potentially rejecting him once he becomes “too old for her” is just her dogged persistence in wanting to be with him and the passage of time.

after so many years of them working together and her continually pursuing him, it becomes clear to grissom hers is not just a passing interest. she’s not just a young woman infatuated with her former teacher—which, side note, he was never her actual professor, just the guy who ran a seminar she attended at a professional conference—and her attraction to him isn’t based in ignorance of who he really is or what he can (and cannot) offer.

while he had always feared the more she got to know him, the less she would like him, the opposite is true. she spends 5+ years in vegas looking at him with eyes wide open, seeing all of his flaws and failings up close, watching him age in real time, and her desire for him never diminishes but rather grows into a deep, grounded love; one which compels her to stick with him, even when he has been less than at his best within her view many, many times over. the fact she sticks around that way finally after many years convinces grissom she knows what she’s getting into and will face the future by his side, whatever it may hold.

as for his concerns about what others may think of the age gap, i think grissom forgets them around the same time he realizes he cares more about making sara happy than he does about anything else—i.e., circa the events of episode 05x13 “nesting dolls.” at that point, he just seems to make an active decision he no longer cares about what being with sara might do to his career and/or reputation; all he cares about is showing her the love she deserves, regardless of what anyone else may say, you know? furthermore, since she doesn't seem to care about how a relationship between them might affect her reputation and is willing to accept whatever consequences there are, he follows her lead.

of course, it does also help matters that for the first few years he and sara are together, their relationship remains a secret at work, so they don’t actually face any scrutiny down those (or any) lines from their coworkers—and by the time they finally do make their relationship public, he’s already largely over the whole issue, no longer bothered by it because he’s so blissfully happy being with sara, no matter what anyone else thinks.

as for how the age gap actually comes into play once grissom and sara are together, as stated above, 90% of the time, i don’t think it factors in at all—aside from maybe in the form of some good-natured intergenerational teasing, of the kind we see in episode 07x02 “built to kill” pt. ii.

while grissom and sara may occasionally have different frames of reference for pop culture, honestly, all other age-related discrepancies in their relationship are fairly negligible. between grissom being a something of a social novice for his age and sara being an old soul for hers, they meet up fairly nicely in the middle. though they may occasionally discuss variances in his upbringing in the 60s vs. hers in the 70s and 80s in an anthropological way, they’re squared enough on their worldviews, politics, life philosophies, core values, interests, hobbies, etc., regardless of generation or age, they just generally align.

the only place i can ever see the age gap as being at all more of a pressing issue between them is in terms of their future planning and some difficult conversations they may end up having to have.

while all spouses regardless of age should talk about issues like power of attorney, advance directives, organ donation, end of life and palliative care wishes, life insurance, funerary and burial preferences, legal wills, etc., for may-december couples like grissom and sara, those discussions can take on an air of urgency and even inevitability that can be difficult to swallow, especially for the younger partner.

grissom is pragmatic enough i'm sure he’d want sara to be prepared for what might be waiting around the corner for them, in terms of his health and life expectancy. however, i can’t imagine it’d be very easy for sara to talk about those eventualities with him, and especially not in a brass-tacks kind of “here are my wishes and here’s what i'm leaving you and here’s what i hope for you once i'm gone” kind of way.

while she manages to deflect away from the topic at the end of episode 06x24 “way to go” deftly enough (“i'm not ready to say goodbye”), there would come a point when grissom would want to sit down and actually talk though the ins and outs, and she might have a very hard time reckoning with some of what he has to say to her, even though she knows—on a logical level—what he’s saying is all valid.

the same might also be true to a lesser degree when the time comes to discuss grissom's retirement. of course, he's long gotten out of the csi game, but what about when he's ready to stop being an active conservationist (and particularly given the job is integral to his and sara's seafaring lifestyle)? would she still want to keep working after he called things quits once and for all? or would she take an early retirement with him? if she didn't retire with him, how would such an arrangement work?

of course, it's never quite clear how grissom and sara make money on the ishmael, but there are practical concerns to consider regarding savings and having enough to live on not just for the rest of his life but hers.

likewise, given the rigors of seagoing, they might also have to mull moving inland at some point, depending on grissom's health.

outside of those few and far between “tough talks,” though, i think most of the time, grissom and sara pay little mind to their age gap overall and are probably only really reminded of it when others perhaps react to it—which, honestly, most likely happens less and less the older they both get, and especially sara.

like you say, especially by the time sara is in her fifties, i think the difference not only feels insignificant to them on the inside of their relationship but also looks insignificant to onlookers on the outside, too.

though the gap might eventually come more to bear as grissom ages, i think for a long, long time, it's just a nonfactor—something to occasionally smirk about but on the whole infinitely less important than someone uninitiated might suppose.

fifteen years or no, they're just so intensely compatible with each other, the time doesn't really much matter.

soulmates are forever.

thanks for the question! please feel welcome to send another any time.

[susellesie]

my opinion on s2 Alicent is that house of the dragon needs to be different from game and thrones, and that most of the criticism of house of the dragon is a reactionary instinct to relive certain beloved characters and tropes from game of thrones.

let me be clear; house of the dragon as a show is already going into characterization with a lot of options for characters and tropes off the board because they've already been done in game of thrones. they're already going to have to work with the instinctual assumption from the audience to relate back to what they know. rhaenyra = daenerys, otto = tywin, and alicent = cersei.

now, obviously these aren't exact matches. i'm talking about sweeping personality and the tropes they march. cersei, specifically, is the trope of the feral mother. she kills for her kids (in the books at least - technically in the show too, but that was revenge and i'm talking about premeditated murder) she lives and dies by her kids. her ethical code, goals, all of it rests on her children.

and cersei is an amazing character. she's fascinating to read and watch, and lena headey's performance will live in my brain forever. but cersei is one of the main characters throughout game of thrones. and say what you want about season 8- god knows i won't defend it - but her arc ends there, for better or for worse, after all her children have died before her.

now, years after watching game of thrones slowly decline and eventually bomb in the final two seasons, the show writers are tasked to explore these new characters in a prequel. to be the first "new" asoiaf content to air on television since. the reality of house of the dragon is that it has to be different from game of thrones. it just does. hotd has to be its own show with its own characters.

so, here's what i'm getting at; alicent is the deconstruction of the trope of motherly devotion.

alicent in season one has the exact same ethical code as cersei; do whatever to protect my children. even if that means taking the throne from my childhood best friend, even if that means forcibly removing her from power. and in driftmark, this escalates, if only temporarily - alicent shows a willingness to harm a child to avenge the harm that has been done to hers.

asoiaf have always asked tough questions of the reader. what do you do if someone hurts someone you love? how do you act with honor if honor gets you killed? cersei's character asks an audience a question: what would you do to protect your children? and to the audience, that question is simple, it's easy. anything. it's the thing that redeems cersei when her actions are irredeemable; she does it out of love.

alicent's character asks a different question is season two, one that i think will be explored more in season three. what would it take for you to stop supporting your children?

no matter what joffrey does, cersei is a bystander to it, and often an accomplice. that is the devotion that makes up her character, and the trope she represents in the story. alicent is the deconstructed answer cersei's dilemma, and i think ultimately what cooke, condal & co. are trying to say is that there is a reality where "a mother's love" is a trope.

think about media today. think about the characters we think of when we think about mothers. cersei, cat, rhaenyra? all mothers so devoted they die for it. the concept of a mother's love is so idolized by the media that we don't think about the woman behind the mother. the woman becomes more mother than person, a shield for children both good and evil. (not talking about George's wrting - i'm talking about the way people view these characters commonly.)

and it's unrealistic. it just is. for every mother who is completely and utterly devoted to their good, well behaved child there is another who has raised a child who ended up committing sexual violence, or domestic abuse, or hurting others in general. and that's not to say children/people who grow up to do these things do not deserve to be loved by their mothers - that's to say the expectation that mothers should always be not only forgiving, but silently accepting and an accomplice to the actions of their children is not the feminist trope people might think it is.

cersei is already the example of the dedicated mother. we saw that arc play out on screen. Alicent is the deconstruction of the devoted mother who is tested beyond belief. who is challenged in the worldviews she has held her entire life. and the decision at the end of season 2 - the decision to choose rhaenyra over her son, half dead, who never took ruling seriously, who sought revenge by killing innocents, is something many dedicated mothers have had to do in their lives too.

it's not an easy thing to stomach, because we have been told through media our entire lives that a mother who does not choose or defend her children is the evilest of evil. but that is an antiquated trope for a reason.

we have to be able to move past the reactionary instinct to desire the things that make us comfortable, and one of the things that makes us comfortable are the tropes we rely on. alicent's s2 characterization is the deconstruction of that trope.

[calliecopper]

Unpopular Shameless (U.S) opinions because I can't get them out of my head

Karen is one of the most overhated characters in the show. Hating Karen for Daddyzgirl but not hating Sheila for her sexual assult of Frank in s1e2 is hypocritical. Especially since that's likely where Karen learned that type of behavior from. Also, many of the other reasons people hate Karen can be pretty easily explained or understood, just like most flaws or bad decisions made by every other character in the show can be explained; for some reason people do not want to extend the same grace to Karen as they do other characters. I think a large part of this is due to the fact that characters used for comedic relief seem to generally be better liked by the fandom, and Karen is not often used as such.

On that note, Sheila had no right to take Hymie at the end of s2. Karen decided to give Hymie up for adoption specifically after the event wherein Sheila got drunk and crashed her babyshower, which ended in literal gunshots being fired. In s3 it's established that Karen called the Wong family because she believes Sheila to be unfit to care for him. While her motivations were likely also selfish, I have no doubt that Karen's personal experiences dealing with Sheila and her lackluster parenting led to her trying to keep Hymie away from Sheila. It's no coincidence in my mind that Karen's personality and her approach to motherhood changed drastically after the babyshower. So, Sheila's decision to take Hymie for herself was not only disrespectful to Karen, but it also pushed Karen to leave home underage and get herself into dangerous situations (which is kinda similar to Ian from s4, huh?)

Debbie is also severely overhated by fandom. I won't argue much for later seasons because I think all the characters suffered a large decline in their writing quality, but regardless, people hate Debbie in seasons 4-6 for reasons that I, again, don't really think are completely valid. I actually think Debbie's most interesting storylines occur in seasons 4-8/9, and I think that her poor decisions earn her a disproportionate amount of hate. I've seen some calling her the worst character on Shameless, and while she can be kinda annoying, I think her storyline honestly makes sense, and her journey into motherhood with Franny is really interesting to look at when you look at her own relationship with Monica.

Speaking of Monica; this is less of an opinion and more of an idea I've had before, but I think it would've been really interesting if we had seen a lot more of Monica. Specifically, I think it would've been cool to see Frank actually die in s4, and then spend s5-7 with Monica instead. Maybe see her popping in and leaving at more frequent intervals and explore more of her relationships with each of the individual kids, as well as seeing more of her antics and schemes instead of Frank's. I wanna know what she gets up to when she's away from home, just like we get to see what Frank gets up to. I think it would've been cool to primarily explore Frank's relationship and impact on the kids in the first part of the series, then Monica's, then after her death really explore the kids on their own without the active influences of their parents. Like Fiona said at the end of s4, the whole idea of "It's not Frank, not Monica, it's me."

Really really unpopular opinion here. Kev and V should've gotten a divorce. I really love them in the early seasons, but seeing them in s5 kinda made me think they weren't good together. I think having an arc of martial struggles and showing them working through it would've been really cool, but I don't really feel like they ever worked through their issues? It feels like the conversations V should've been having with Kev about how she's having trouble connecting with the kids were conversations she was actually having with Svetlana. I think they were shown to always have communication issues, and s5 could've shown growth there in their relationship, but all that happened was that they included a third into their relationship, whom they both eventually started treating very badly, and they fucked their feelings out. I don't feel like they ever reached a good space together. I honestly think an arc of divorce and learning to co-parent would've been best for them. Especially since showing the love in a relationship before and even during a divorce, and how much it really does hurt, would've been very realistic. Sometimes you really do love somebody and sometimes it just doesn't work.

Frank was a worse parent than Monica. People get this idea that Monica ruined Frank, and that he could've been a good father had he not met Monica. I'll say that the logic there isn't logic-ing when Sammy and Queenie are right there. Frank was fucked up before Monica. Even so, Frank was an infinitely worse parent than Monica. There's the mentality of "well at least he was here" but he really wasn't there. When he was he was actively mooching off of his children and bringing danger back into the home. He canonically goes on months long benders. He only returns home when his alternative living situations end up crashing and burning. He uses physical force against his children. Monica ran out on them. She took the squirrel fund money (which Frank did too) and spent it all. In her attempt to be a fun mother she made life actively harder for the kids. She was by no means a perfect mother, but never do I believe that she had malicious intent or a desire to actively harm her children. She's not a good parent, but the idea that she was the worse one pisses me off so bad. This idea that "Frank could've been a good parent" actually applies more to Monica. If she hadn't met Frank and had gotten the help she needed, she could've been a good mother.

I like Sammi in s4 and think she's is a good and interesting character. I don't really like what they did with her in s5, but I do think her calling the MPs on Ian was an interesting plot point. If they'd made an effort to make Sammi likeable in s5 instead of painting her as a psychotic bitch, I think it would've provided more nuance to the end of s5. Especially since, similar to the "Mandy hitting Karen with a car" incident is praised, Mickey almost killing Sammi is seen as a "deserved" moment simply because Sammi was an annoying character. The punishment absolutely does not fit the crime, and while it was accidental, Mickey did fully intend on torturing Sammi and he deserved to go to prison for it. The women of this show really are hated more than they deserve to be, but I blame the decline in writing quality for some of that. Not all of it though.

Ian and Mickey breaking up in s5 was the healthiest thing for them at that point in time. There's mixed opinions on why Ian broke up with Mickey, but I've always been under the impression that Ian didn't want to burden Mickey. Based off his s10 hesitancy to get married, the whole idea of "how do you know you want to be with me, I'm bipolar" suggests to me that Ian was struggling with those feelings immediately post diagnosis, and thus went about a slightly self-destructive route of leaving Mickey before he either got left or ruined them both. I don't think Ian was really correct in that thinking, but I do think that he needed to do some growing outside of a relationship for awhile. I think Mickey also needed to grow a bit. I don't really like how their relationship is handled s7-11, but I think them breaking up and coming back together in a healthier way was the best move for them to avoid ruining each other.

That's all for now maybe I'll add more later but yeah. I love pretty much every character on this show; the whole point is that they're morally gray.

[erikiara80]

Hint in S3 that Joyce and Hopper were probably a couple in the original timeline

At the beginning of S3, Hopper asks Joyce out, but she declines. That evening, she watches an episode of the sitcom Cheers where a woman named Diane (like Hopper’s wife), tells her friend that a man, Frasier, asked her to marry him after he drank some Chianti. 

Screenshots credits to @chirpsythismorning​ Tagging you too @lilitblaukatz​ and @shippingfangirl013​ 

In the sitcom, Diane leaves Frasier at the altar. Joyce never shows up at the restaurant. And she and Hopper have been separated by everything, from evil scientists to time manipulation. 

But it’s the name Diane and the mention of Chianti, imo, the hint that Hopper and Joyce were together, and that they were a family at some point in the past.

Then there’s a flashback of Joyce and Bob. When I rewatched this scene, knowing what we know now about Vecna and timelines/time loop theories, I nearly spat out my tea.

Bob: They’re funny. I just wish they’d just get back together again already (Joyce: Me too)

He doesn’t say I hope they get together soon. They were a couple in the past. And Diane and Hopper had a child...

Also, in 3x02 Hop gets really drunk with Chianti. 

But there are many other hints.

Some of my favorite

This one is insane, lmao.

Joyce’s line in one of the S1 flashbacks: I don’t know who’s been raising you. Then the transition from Will’s drawing (the fireballs/cabbages) to a close up of Hopper’s eyes.

All the Will-Sara parallels in S1. But especially this one. It’s like Hopper is watching Will dying here.

This

Joyce calling Will, then Hopper. It’s interesting, because it really seems like she’s saying Will Hopper.

In 2x04, Will tells Joyce and Hopper that now he knows things that he never did before, and has memories that aren’t his memories. He’s talking about the possession, but if Jopper were together and then they were separated because of a time loop or brainwashing, this scene could be another way to hinting at the truth.

Also: My theory is that Sara is an altered memory and is actually Will or the combination of Will and El, Hopper’s kids, that the lab made him believe he lost. MKUltra was known for this kind of brainwashing.

Twin imagery. In every season. And always connected to Will, El, Joyce and Hopper. I think Jon is really Lonnie’s son-the reason he’s the only one who mentions him. And that Lonnie is the “Biff” of Stranger Things.

I also love that in S3 and S4 Hoppr and Joyce keep saying things like Let’s call our children, our kids are in danger... I mean, it makes sense, but IF Joyce and Hopper are Will and El’s parents, when we’ll rewatch the show, we’ll realize that the truth has always been there, from the beginning, like David said. And it’s beautiful.

Not a Willel twin post, but here some gifs of those moments: Joyce, Jim and their kids

The school scenes have so many hidden hints

Like the Wright Bros visual aid. So, Will and El are the (W)right bros. But we already know that they’re siblings. El lives with the Byers. Nothing new. So why these hidden hints if it’s something we already know? 

Another very interesting visual aid. Anton van Leeuwenhoek, the father of microbiology. One of his main discoveries: spermatozoa. But there’s more. The shirt of the kid behind Will. Maybe I’m delusional, but doesn’t it look like a DNA filament? 

So, the (W)right Bros, DNA filaments, the father of microbiology, Will and El, all in the same shot. 

More hints because, why not?

A hidden hint at Will and Hopper connection at the end of S3 and S4

And after another mention of Chianti in 4x09, Joyce and Hopper almost make out in Russia and then they’re twinning.

Also:

This post about MKUltra, Joyce and Terry 

Also this post  

This one about El and the blonde sisters, or this one

March 22. Will’s birthday. Joyce says it twice. This could be a reference to Henry, who’s possessing Will in S2. But maybe it’s also a hint that another kid was born on that day? El?

Twin imagery everywhere. I’m sure it’s also related to the Martin/Richard Brenner and Henry/Edward mystery, and maybe a hint at different timelines. But Hopper, Joyce and their kids have been front and center from episode one. So this is about them too. It’s all connected.

And speaking of Russia and making out, lol.

At the beginning of S4, Joyce opens the doll that Murray says could be pregnant with an explosive device. A mom with her kids, a boy and a girl, stare at her, confused. 

A few episodes later, Owens says this: 

‘It’s a fancy bomb. We used to store them in these silos, but we haven’t used this one in years. In fact, there is no bomb here at all. So we repurposed it to hold something much more powerful than a missile. You.’ Oh, after jokes about working out of a shed.

So, Joyce has a doll that could be pregnant with a bomb but isn’t. And then we learn that one of the silos that were used to store bombs has been repurposed for El, who’s not a bomb but something more powerful.

Here the post

And the doll is actually “pregnant” with the proof that Hopper is alive. 

Imo, the mention of pregnancy connects Joyce, Hopper and El. And the boy and the girl that stare at Joyce when she breaks the doll could mean that Joyce was pregnant with two powerful children.

[scarabaebutch]

Prompting Night: Jay Garrick deciding to have some quality bonding time with Bart, in whatever form that takes

A/N: this is the YJA-verse. Also technically within an YJA-preboot fusion AU I've been working on for a while but the details are unneeded since this is part of the very beginning of it. This is Jay's POV. I adore the Flashfam and have a particular soft spot for the Golden Agers.

Context: this is morning after the end of s2

---

7:06AM July 05, 2016

On his second cup of chamomile, Jay looks through Snapper Carr’s last reports and assessments on Bart’s academic skills again. Joan had already left early this morning for her microbiology lecture. Now it was just him and a still sleeping-in Bart in the house. That was a first he was pleased to see; the future-boy had a habit of being up as early as him, an insomniac old man who didn’t have many good dreams to look forward to.

Weak in essay writing and reading analysis, but strong in math, Mr. Carr’s notes began. Demonstrates excellent understanding of algebraic and geometric concepts. Has trouble showing his work and keeping on task, but that may be due to the subject material. Has not indicated extent of previous experience in the public school system. Will need additional guidance on school expectations prior to enrollment. Addendum: very neat cursive! Tell him to keep up the good handwriting. Did you teach him the Palmer method? 

Jay frowns. He'll need to submit these to Keystone North by next Friday. Bart will start eighth grade in the coming fall. The thought of Bart’s shocking youth in light of recent events makes Jay’s stomach clench. Jay had nearly pulled Bart off the Team after Wally’s death. Barry was hardly in a state to argue back. The thought of Bart being in the same danger—how did he ever tolerate that for Wally, Jay wonders. Then he remembers--the need for an outlet, for others like himself, for morality and self-discipline. Work from a young age was good for character and strengthening. Wally had blossomed on the Team, at least for a little while. Then college came and there was a…worrying decline. Frankly, leaving behind the suit was good for Wally’s mental state, whether or not he would ever return to the life. 

But even Wally, Jay thinks angrily, was not exposed to such twisting violence like Bart at the same age. Wally was fifteen going on sixteen when he was first on the Team. The missions, from what he recalled, were tricky but not shadowed by a looming war. Bart wasn’t fourteen and yet he was called one of the most important assets on the Team.

Sickening. Jay had half a mind to question the competency of the Justice League, but he had to use his influence carefully. The Justice League may take his advice in consideration but any harsh criticism could be easily dismissed as an out of touch veteran’s cantankerous mutterings. While Barry would certainly listen to him, that was no guarantee for change. 

Why did he let Bart stay, he wonders. He and Joan were his guardians. Then he remembers again, the hard look in Bart’s eyes. If Jay and Joan did not let him, he would do it his own way, no matter the consequences. Perhaps he should have adopted a firmer stance. But Bart was not a young child that could be easily grounded or restrained. They were guardians but not…parental figures. Not quite. Bart did not openly rebel but neither was he obligated to stay with them, exactly. He listened out of respect and politeness, at least at this point. And Jay rather Bart be monitored and have help nearby than run the risk of Bart running off and doing God-knows-what in bum nowhere.

The new (old) suit and codename was just another hurdle for Jay to get used to. 

Jay sighs, rubs one of his temples. He reads the end notes again. To say they felt vaguely incomplete and superficial was an understatement. But most academic assessments were mostly a glimpse of a student’s ability to take a presented exam nowadays. His own and Joan’s experiences in the American education system long told of that. Bart’s strength in mathematics was unsurprising—his preference of fixing and updating his goggles was evident from the start, alongside his family history. Not that it would have been a shame if Bart wasn’t so inclined; it simply made many things easier. Though, strangely, Barry seemed startled whenever Jay told him of Bart’s fascination with machines and frequencies. 

Jay did not pretend to himself about any previous or future heartfelt conversations with Bart about the alternate now-unwinded future he came from. He didn’t know anymore than anyone else in the family. There was no one left to miss him, Bart had simply said when asked about any future-family to possibly return to, after the Reach were defeated, after poor Wally (it should have been you, you old bastard--).

Another life where there was no one left to miss him. Another aspect that was unfortunately similar to himself (no matter how long ago--). Jay takes another gulp of chamomile and watches the golden hour slowly pass into proper morning. Well, he thinks to himself. It’ll help no one fussing over that now. Bart will tell his current family more when he feels safe. Stable. Jay and Joan were happy to provide that but damn if Jay’s natural curiosity wasn’t piqued. It itched at him, to poke and ask so who did take care of you before you left. Time around fellas of his own generation had luckily taught him patience in that regard. 

The most pressing mystery to Jay was the way Bart ran and moved, smooth, graceful, unceasing. No pauses for recalculations. Leaping, darting. It reminded him someone he thought dead for decades--

Peripherally, Jay teeks a closeby aura shifting brighter, awake. The stairs creak a picosecond after. He straightens up and closes the beige folder.

“Bart,” he calls up. “Breakfast is ready. Clean up and eat some eggs. They’re in the pan for you.”

“Be right there!” Bart calls right down. Ten seconds and a gust of air later, he appears next to Jay’s seat. “Can I have some waffles too?”

“In the freezer.”

“Thanks!”

Jay works through the rest of his chamomile by the time Bart settles across him with a plate piled with eggs and a tower of blueberry waffles. Jay pushes a jar of honey towards him.

“Are we going to train today, Jay?” Bart asks halfway into his eggs and waffles, his tone a tad too casual, the muscles in his throat twitching. Modulating the voice. Jay doesn’t poke. “Gramps mentioned he wanted to skip patrol today so maybe we could go running in Utah or the Andes. I haven’t navigated mountains in a while.”

An incomplete assessment, only scratching the surface. An old costume from someone else. When was the last time Bart had done anything not related to superheroing? Barry mostly called to take Bart patrolling or to pick him up from Team missions as of recent weeks. Before, Bart would take every opportunity to blame the invasion to avoid many non-hero excursions. No excuses anymore, Jay decides.

“I was thinking something closer to home, slugger,” Jay says, pushing the folder to the side. “Do you like chemistry?”

Bart blinks, perks up a bit. “Can’t say I’m super familiar with it like you. More of a mechanic—I mean, I like playing with computer parts or, uh—I’m good with numbers. Carr put that in my report card, right?”

Jay smiles. “He did. Chemistry and physics are my game. I still work as a part-time director. I go in tomorrow.”

“I can do physics.” A twist in Bart’s mouth before his face flattens into something neutral. “Is there going to be a test?”

“Just on how fast you can figure out which chemicals can cause an explosion,” Jay says idly.

“Oh, I think I can do that.” A grin blooms across Bart’s face, something reflecting genuine emotion.  

“My lab’s in the basement,” Jay says, pleased. “After breakfast, I’ll show you what happens when you put sodium in water and how to put out a hydrogen fire. You gotta watch out for such things in a lab. You don’t want to blow up by accident.”

“A hydrogen fire?” Bart repeats, swallowing a bit of syrup covered eggs. His yellow eyes glittered with interest. “I know about magnesium and methanol fires but not hydrogen.”

“Not too different, asides from the fact it’s almost invisible in daylight,” Jay says cheerily. “It happens. After you learn how to not blow up by accident, then I’ll teach you how to make explosions on purpose.”

“Do you know how to put together a gas stove? Or a Bunsen burner?” Bart asks excitedly, voice climbing up. “I know how to fix one but I don’t know about which model parts belong to which since it’s hell trying to find an intact manual even in this time—”

“Sure thing, buster. But we’ll start from the beginning,” Jay tells him. “One step at a time. Think you can keep up?”

“I won’t forget a single one, Jay,” Bart replies with a thick layer of gushing assurance and eagerness. “And don’t worry, I won’t burn down the house. I promise.”

Jay huffed out a short laugh. “Alright, kid. Come on, let’s get started.” 

---

[writingsofwesteros]

Now that s2 is over and we have more material, I've been thinking about Hightower between the waves. It's been a while since I've sent anything for that au. But now I kinda want to do a new version since it's been so long, and we have new show scenes and plots to work with..

I was thinking, what if it goes down a little differently: (tag name suggestion for a new au) chained beneath the waves.

Alicent doesn't marry them to flee the marriage to Viserys. She still marries him, and everything happens as in the show. But instead, what if, since Rhaenys has silently known about his bastards for some time now and just left it unsaid, she gets back at Corlys' infidelity. In the most unexpected way, having a secret affair with the Queen.

When he runs, he leaves her for 6 years to the Stepstones after Laenor and Laenas deaths. She doesn't just stay on Driftmark alone raising Baela as a ward. What if she attempts to remedy the fracture with her cousin following everything that happened and constantly takes Baela to King's Landing. Spending time with Viserys, so knowing about his health declining and witnessing Alicent and Otto basically rule in his place. She starts spending more time with Alicent. Eventually, they get more comfortable together. Having Baela and her children actually get to know each other, they are cousins after all, and Daemon will never. The branches need to be mended, and what better place to start than with the children. It goes fine for the first year or 2. Cordial. They get to know each other slowly, really know, not the facade worn in the face of court or rivals. Not the Queen or the Princess, not a Hightower and a Targaryen. Just Alicent and Rhaenys.

.... until about year 2. They've gotten too comfortable. After drinking far, far too much wine together one night, they sleep together. Alicent, of course, freaks out. She feels as if she sinned with Criston in s2. Imagine her panic with a woman.

The friendship gets strained after, her not even looking Rhaenys in the eye or speaking with her privately the next few days, even with the children around, busying herself fretting over Aegon and Baela playing far to freely with their young dragons together in the pits, Rhaenys staying aside with Aemond with his book and Helaena with her bugs, not pushing anything in front of them. But it's awkward. So she ends that visit early, taking Baela back to Driftmark the next morning, this time being the one to not look at Alicent as they leave the keep, feeling her eyes burning into her back.

Then it's some time before they see each other, Alicent positively freaking out over her sin. Eventually, she breaks though, because after months of silence, of no letters, of no visits, no courage to go to Driftmark herself, she can't stand it. She'd grown so used to not being alone again. It's eating at her. Any sin isn't worth this pit in her gut. She sends the letter with little expectations, but when she wakes early a few days later to the roar of Meleys flying outside the keep just before dawn, she's dressing and rushing down to the dragonpit faster than she'd willingly admit. But poor Ali hehe. When she's actually face to face with Rhaenys once more, hearing how her name falls from her lips, she is at a loss... blushing under the taller womans gaze... neither of them have stopped thinking about that night. How the other felt, tasted.. Moaned... she doesn't mean to. But before either of them are comprehending what's happening, she's on her in a flash. Alicent having to reach on her toes and pull the other woman down in order to kiss her. Nearly half a foot between them, at 5'5'' and 5'10'', she's so tall...

Thankfully, there are no dragonkeepers down there quite this early because the second she kisses her, Rhaenys confirms her suspicions that it wasn't regretted and holds back no longer, taking control immediately. Kissing her deeply, lifting her with ease, carrying her to the nearby column... months of pent-up feelings and frustrations for this woman coming to a head as she bunches Alicents dress up to her hips...

!!!!!

But why is Alicent cute when she's panicking about sin, oopsie ;)

Corlys being stupid and can be left in the cold for a bit longer.

Rhaenys does not waste any time as her two slender fingers are pushing in Alicent's sweet, creamy pussy as she clamps down instantly. "Good girl, there you." The Princess cooed as she watched the younger woman begin to fall apart.

She had not been able to watch the Queen's reactions on their first night together; it had been so rushed , which was why Rhaenys slowly removed her fingers just before Alicent found her release

[probablynot-john]

Oki doki, after the last season of lower decks just ended, I feel like this is a good time to point out some things.

If you think that they're " just friends" still, yeah, i get it. But in case you've forgot, here is a chronological list of everything they have done for eachother:

1. Rutherford spent the entire day looking for a job in a different department, when he already loves his job more than anything, just so he could spend time with her (S1:E2).

2. Rutherford shows her Badgy to help her train for a test (the moon walking scene is so cute). And then when Badgy tries to kill them, he admits "I was just trying to impress Tendi! She's so cute!" As he tries to sacrifices himself for her (S1:E6).

3. She is devastated when he went on the packled ship to save the crew. And when he had his implant ripped out she sat next to his bed every day and read to him every day until he woke up. And then he didn't remember her, she was on the verge if tears, but instead she just says "now we can be best friends all over again!" (S1:E10).

4. When his personality shifts by slightest degree, (he suddenly likes pears) she notices and tries to help. Violently. She was scared that he would forget her again. And rather than be mad that she ruined his date and chased him through a hallway, he gives her understanding, compassion and a hug! "Also don't date Barns" (S2:E1).

5. They built the same model ship over and over again together just so they could spend time alone together. He was so upset that he was "a year behind in being your friend" and that he couldn't remember what he did last year. To make him feel better, she got them a new model they could do together (S2:E6).

6. She thought he was dead and that it was her fault for asking him to step out of his comfort zone and try engineering on a different ship. She refuses to accept that he's gone and searches the other ship for him. He's completely fine when she finds him but she's still traumatized by the end of the episode (S2:E7).

7. They incorrectly suspect that Tendi is going to be transferred off the Cerritos so they spend the day together doing everything they loved on the ship, including the jefferies tube where they watched the stellar anomaly from S1:E2. Of course, she actually gets a promotion and he gives her a hug (S2:E10).

8. When he forgot her, he started saving 3 copies of every moment that he spent with her in his memory banks so he wouldn't forget. He spent so much time with her that it filled his brain and was causing malfunctions (S2:E10).

9. When they were grounded on earth for the trial they spent the entire time sightseeing together until they had to go do plot stuff (S3:E1).

10. Ruthorford loses control of his body to an "evil" version of himself and his first thought is "I need to contact Tendi, she'll know what to do!" And then he's so scared for her when his evil self goes to find her. This episode broke me(S3:E5).

11. Tendi is frustrated dealing with another Orian in starfleet. Honestly I didn't love Ruthorford in this episode, but "it was nice to meet another Orian, but I'd rather just spend time with you!" She's worried that he'll think less of her when he finds out she was a pirate. But he tells her that it's a part of her and he already likes her for who she is, and encourages her to embrace her heritage (S3:E6)

12. She's upset when he doesn't take her roll in a holosimulation seriously. But when she explains why she's upset, she admits out loud for the first time that she wants to be a captian. And he becomes her biggest supporter (S3:E8).

13. "It's gonna be weird not sleeping 5ft away from you, not having your muttering to lull me to sleep" she encourages him to speak up for himself so he can get the recognition he deserves so he can be promoted along side her. Also he's been declining promotions all year just so he can stay the same rank as her (S4:E2).

14. I don't want to spoil the rest of season 4, but oh my gosh, Ferangi Hearth Place. Everything about this episode is amazing. They have to pretend to be a married couple to go on a vacation."Why can't a symbol of love be gorgeous green eyes?" Or "I can't wait to walk around our shared room in nothing but a pair of your boxers completely topless. " Come on! This might be my favorite episode of the series. Not even just for the ships, Self Sealing Stembolts! *Chants Rom and Leeta to the theme of Bob The Builder* (S4:E6).

15. I don't want to spoil the season final, but oh my gosh, he was devastated, and so was I! (S4:E10).

Okay, I know Star Trek has a horrible history of ships falling apart. But romantic ships and actual ships. I would have been perfectly happy with them being best friends, but after rewatching the series, I would be quite disappointed if they didn't at least kiss.

So what do you think, are they still just friends?

[gigigle]

I'm bored so these are changes I would make to stranger things.

S1, honestly nothing, s1 is probably my favorite season. The most I would do is make Steve a more apparent a hole. And keep mlvn platonic.

S2, I would've leaned into the difference of the party more and their struggles. Also I wouldn't have had El live in the cabin. I would've preferred if she was hidden but not from the party and we get to see her adjust to not living in the lab anymore. I would've also preferred to see stancy be platonic and see Steve grow and try to learn to be friends with Nancy and Jonathan. Also more pushback against Steve from party members. Like he used make fun of Mike and Dustin or Smth and they don't like him also show his decline from popularity too.

I also would've leaned in to Lucas and Billy's story where it actually talks about racism and the micro aggressions Lucas faces living in a small town like Hawkins. I also would've had a storyline about the ableism Dustin receives andaybe that could set up the Steve and Dustin friendship where Steve defends him from Carol and tommy. Also have Dustin give Steve pushback from him messing with Dustin before. To actually give Steve more depth and development.

Also I think I would have gotten rid of the possession storyline and just had will dealing with the trauma and aftermath of the upside down and have a Lonnie storyline in there too. Where maybe he's trying to get custody so he can get some of the money that Joyce gets paid by the government. And we see more in depth how awful Lonnie really was to Jonathan and will. Also show Joyce's struggles being branded the town hysterical women and trying to fight her abusive ex husband while also trying to take care of will. It would also show Jonathans neglect/how he's kinda the glass child and how he takes more shift to help pay for stuff. I would still have jancy get together though at some point.

And mike I think show how his family is distant but not really go into it till s3. So s2 is just developing his relationships with El and will.

Keep max the same. And still have El run away to kalis grew.

For Nancy I think I wouldve had her still looking in to more of the stuff about barb and the ud and the government but I think I would get rid of Murray because I think In my changes he doesn't fit.

Also show hopper trying to figure out being a dad again.

S3, i would get rid of the mind flayer and all the Russian stuff. I would've kept vecna but slowly introduced him. Started developing jopper more and show El navigating real normal life and maybe have her go to school. And keep max and El.

Get rid of the mall and keep Robin but have her and Steve meet because she is friends with Nancy or Jonathan so that she is connected more. Or have her have friendships with them after she becomes better friends with Steve.

I would give Mike a storyline where he doesn't feel connected to his family at all. Like you show all the other family dynamics and introduce Erica to show how much more connected the other party's family are. Like have Mike jealous of will and Jonathan and Lucas and Erica because of how close they are but him and Nancy barely talk. It would've been interesting and added depth to his character and show his I love you problem.

I also would've shown more of Max's abusive home life and show how it affects her relationship with Lucas. Like max exhibits toxic behavior to Lucas because shes angry about billy and Neil and she lashes out at Lucas. It could've also had scene where Lucas establishes boundaries and tells her he's doesn't like how she treats him. And have her learn that it's wrong and apologize to Lucas.

I also think for Lucas we could have him join basketball this season and see the party reactions to it. I feel like it would've shown more depth in their friendships.

I think I would've pushed El getting kidnapped by the government this season and replace the hopper fake death with els kidnapping. And have billy be the first vecna victim as another cliff hanger.

I would've kept jancy the same and their argument about classism/poverty vs misogyny in the workplace. Because that argument was really good because they were both right and wrong.

Have El develop familial relationships with Joyce and will and Jonathan because maybe she lives with them for school or something.

I also would show will struggles with being gay and the ud more

S4, instead of Eddie blamed have it be the party because Neil tells the police it was them cause of DND. And have the season be the party on the run and hiding out in town to try and figure out what's going on. Also show max struggling with Billy's death and the mystery.

Have hopper and Joyce be the ones who go to rescue El from the lab. Have Steve Nancy Jonathan and Robin be the ones dealing with Hawkins.

I'm done now. But these are just off the top of my head and aren't explained the best.

[luvyeni]

Honestly, most shows are. Like I think of PLL were they changed the whole A reveal just because fans guessed who it was, and they didn't like that, so everything just didn't make sense(and if you read the books it made even less sense). It either goes downhill or gets so confusing people can't keep up, like I didn't even bother with Riverdale since everyone I know mostly dropped the show since it was too confusing. I feel like too, some companies are like oh people like this, and keep making more since it's a cash cow, which you can really tell. Like soap operas and all, like General Hospital is going onto season 62, there are 15,511 episodes, you can not tell me that we needed that many. Also The Vampire Diaries comes to mind, since the last two seasons didn't even feel like Vampire Diaries, they felt like they should be some spinoff show. Yet, sometimes shows do the opposite and it's surprising. Like I think of The 100, they had like season 1 and 2 were good, season 3 sucked, but they got back on it and season 4 to 7 were good, except the finale.

Season 3 is the best, but it does get a bit confusing with the later seasons, especially when basically everyone leaves. I honestly would have loved to know what was initially planned, since it probably would have been way better than what we got. Yet, even though it goes downhill, it's not the worse show, since I know some shows basically become unwatchable due to decline.

dont get me start on pll , I will never forgive them for making that show that long simply because of that , because you could tell after they def were making things up as they went along. and i couldn't even remember vd past s3 and i only watched up to s2 of legacies.