#i really dont want to be a hater but man. this show is disappointing me

[arcaneglitch]

why is the percy jackson show Like That

I might be about to go on a slight rant bc all I see on twitter and tumblr are people praising this show and I genuinely feel like I must be watching something entirely different

spoiler warning for episode 6

I just watched the latest episode and I need to get these grievances off my chest

no percy + annabeth bonding scene

no revelation of percy's horse talking powers (the title of the episode was We Take a Zebra to Las Vegas and there was NOTHING about him talking to it)

in the Lotus Casino, they immediately figured out that it would make them forget (ruining the big reveal for the sake of Yet Another exposition dump)

why is Hermes there

the Grover scene in the casino came completely out of left field + felt unmotivated

the casino was supposed to be FUN and act like a break for them, which it absolutely failed to do

Why the FUCK did they have them completely miss the summer solstice deadline??? good job getting rid of all of the stakes

why was percy given four pearls instead of three? that completely negates the important choice he's supposed to make when he reaches the Underworld

overall, this show has been littered with pacing problems, exposition dumps, and stilted characterizations

I feel cheated considering how much Rick has been hyping it up and it seems like people are praising it for doing the absolute minimum

[priceforrottenjudgement]

I didnt want to be negative about natla, i didnt want to hate it, i was really really rooting for it at first, even when the original creators exited the project i was still being positive about it.

On its own this is a good show. Ive seen ppl criticise acting or cgi, but i thought both of those were good. The casting (with one exception) is amazing.

And thats what makes me so mad, the show really had all the requirements to be great, but in their idiotic attempt to appeal to "Fans of got" they committed the exact same mistake the got writers did, namely thinking they can or need to improve the original.

Natla is chock full of unnecessary little changes, but these changes add the fuck up. Taking away so many of kataras lines or actions and giving them to someone else? Removing her anger about sexism, but not the sexism itself? Aang can fly? Aang didnt run away from his Avatar duties, taking away a big part of his character development? Cutting out ALL the slapstick humour? The weird ass first 5 minutes? Fucking making us watch the airnation genocide? And thats just ep 1.

Also why why whyyyyyyyyyyyy the fuck did it need to be dark and gritty?? WHY. they said they wanted to appeal to the original audience and got Fans, like, i dont even have words for this, why??? Why even try to adapt atla when you plan on fundamentally changing the vibe and style of the original Show, why not just pick literally any other grimdark fantasy instead??

I feel so bad for this cast, they truly deserved better, but the producers of natla clearly only had profits on their minds and tried to 'widen' the intended audience by adding dark and edgy shit (as if the og atla Fans werent enough) while also removing amything deemed too controversial (the sexism discussions, character flaws, putting sokka in make up,...). Also "show dont tell" is dead i guess.

This sucks man, i wish the cast all the best and a successful career, but i skimmed through reviews of the show and needless to say i wont watch more than the first ep. This is genuinely disappointing.

Again, on its own this would be a great show, but as an adaptation of atla it falls completely flat bc it misunderstands whst made atla so good to begin with. Youre ofc free to enjoy it, but dont accuse ppl who didnt like it of being haters or purists or overly critical, bc i really really wanted to enjoy this, i wasnt gunning to hatewatch the show :/

Man, fuck grimdark adaptations, all my homies hate grimdark adaptations.

[penelopecolinb]

Hi, nat! I became a big fan of POLIN after watching season 3 of BRIDGERTON, and for the past two months, I've been obsessed with everything about Polin and even reading your fanfiction! I don't read English very well, but with the help of a translator, I've been devouring all of your fics these past few weeks! The way you describe Polin’s relationship, Colin's character, and their intimacy is so sexy and mesmerizing, and I feel like this could only be done by you. I especially love the way you describe Colin's possessiveness and obsession, which is never unpleasant, but rather charming, because it shows his purity towards Penelope...

I have so many questions for you since you write such amazing fiction... I don't want to bother you, but if you have time, I'd love for you to answer them!

1. you wrote a fanfiction of Polin before season 3 was released, and I'm curious what it is about this couple that fascinated you! Are you a fan of the original show?

2. i was wondering how you viewed season 3, because despite the fact that your fic was written before season 3 was released, i felt that the Colin from the show and the Colin from your novel were very similar, especially in terms of Colin being insecure about Pen's love and being afraid that he wouldn't be a better man for her, and trying to hold on to her, even having sex with her right after they got engaged! I know that part 2 left fans disappointed in terms of length and other aspects, but do you think the show satisfied you?

3. last but not least...I was actually going to ask you if you'd be willing to release a new ONE SHOT fic during this Bonus Polin Week! Then I read your most recent one, SPARE HEART, and I found out that you're in a difficult situation to write fics. I'm so sad for you, but I hope your situation will turn out the way you want it to be soon. It's a great pain for me to know that my favorite fanfiction author is in a bad situation!

Your fics have given me so much comfort and strength!!! 🥺 I can't wait until you start posting fanfiction again! And I'm Korean, and I just wanted to let you know that in the Korean online community I'm in, there are a lot of compliments and mentions of your fics!! I love you!!! If I'm approved to join Ao3, I promise to leave comments and kudos on your fics in the future 😘���

oh god my darling, thank you so so so much for this lovely message, my heart is so full 💖💖

i'll be happy to answer any questions you (or anyone else) might have!

yes, i was a casual viewer of the original series. i got into it even more when queen charlotte came out, and then i just started loving the angst of pen overhearing colin say that shit about never courting her. i went into a deep dive on polin ao3 and never came back!

im hesitant to answer any questions about the show because i dont want to be a hater. i didnt like a lot of the decisions the writers made - not just in part 2, but part 1 too. i think i'll leave it at that. i feel that thinking of the many many things that i wasn't satisfied by really overshadowed the few parts of the series i genuinely liked.

oh, bless your heart. thank you so much for your kind words. i'm trying to finish spare heart at the moment, and then i have a oneshot coming up (but not in polin week) for the polin x care for gaza raffle winner. and after that, i do have a few ideas i wanna start on! so hopefully i will be able to write, but probably not as frequently as i do now.

that is so insane to me, that the polin community in korea have an awareness of my fic and talk about it and really like it 😭😭😭😭😭 thank you for sharing that with me! im so so so glad that my fics have such a broad reach. please pass on my thanks to the lovely korean online community you're in!

i hope you, my lovely friend, have a wonderful, wonderful day!

[taegularities]

Do people really think he doesn’t know what he’s singing about…..? 😟 Y’all are just mad that he’s acting grown finally

To the anon who said this shit ..i am sorry but if you think that this song is somewhat showing that jungkook is mature or knows about sex i am disappointed in you ..As an army myself... is this what we have come to ..The lyrics are not only disgusting but degrading towards women ..jungkook is a freaking sweet heart he is a man who respects women ..i cant believe that they showed this image of him when the actual jungkook we know (soloist or not) has songs like Euphoria , still with you , my you , stay live , My time and more ...i am no anti or solo stan ..i have loved and still love Bangtan bcz their songs are amazing ..they are so freaking talented ..i watched the mv ..love the feel and overall vibe bcz jk's voice is ❤️✨️ but the lyrics ( i am sorry but A Big NO) i have listened to his cover songs hell ( i would prefer them over this) ..how can people say that being mature means sex sex and sex ..GROW UP people ..Seven was proof that while talking about sex you dont need to degrade women and view them as boring , fuck toys 🙂 i am shocked that RM and SUGA listened to this and didnot even realise what the lyrics are ...if jungkook did know what the lyrics are about and didnot give a fuck that this song is literally giving a typical fuckboy energy and degrades women ..then i am truly disappointed in him as a fan ...I was so excited bcz seeing jungkook being confident in his body and exploring genres ..going outta his comfort zone i was truly happy..

Before you come for me saying saying i am just a hater lemme be clear.. i have been an army for years now and i consider myself lucky that i got to listen to their songs and meet them ...i have supported them whenever i got a chance ( albums , streaming , concert ) and as an adult ARMay , i completely understand what maturity is and what degradation is ..😑 i stream their songs bcz they are worth streaming and people should know how talented these men are but this .. nope

Even before this people were calling him and adding him on the list of queerbaiter bcz of his klien shoot (jk wearing a crop top with smoky make up ) and some imaging him as a fuckyboy / alpha male well this song just gave them another reason to hate on them ..i literally logged out of twitter bcz there were so many shit posts about jimin , jungkook even taehyung 😮‍💨 sucks cuz the jungkook i have listened to is nowhere now and i just see scooter and other assholes using him for his voice and dancing skills and luring him in a pop star dream..

I support them all , i want to see them happy and successful..i got no reason to hate them but people need to stop being biased and not see the reality ..this is coming from the fan who has supported jk's every song and listened to his covers .. he used to express himself through lyrics and his choice of lyrics were just ❤️ used to hit me deep ✨️ i have no issue with people who love this song ( cuz i did love jk's voice too ) but after i properly checked the lyrics i couldnot ..

Whew thats it ..if you think i am talking shit please ignore it y'all bcz ofcourse i am jealous and a hater right (yeah yeah ) ofcourse i dont know shit and i am criticising him bcz i want my innocent kookie back and dont respect him as an adult (right ) 🙄*biggest eyeroll

so, im not sure if you're attacking me with this, too, bc i never took anyone's side and am okay with any opinion y'all have lol 😭 i think the ask was just talking about how jk must know what he's singing about bc someone else asked whether he's aware of the lyrics. while admittedly phrased a lil odd, they probably meant that a lot of armys still see him as the innocent and sensitive young boy bc that's the image hybe tried to maintain for him and now they're offering music about sex to him to give him a more mature look.. i think that's it. i did also add it's probably not bc the other anon was mad but just curious. i agree that sex alone doesn't make anyone mature! i guess by now they're just making these songs to aggressively pull jk away from the doe eye image hybe built for him over the years. i'm not totally loving it either.

but other than that, yeah, i'm not the biggest fan of 3D either. it's absolutely okay if you support it and like it, i will NEVER judge anyone's taste in music just bc it doesn't align with mine — and i agree, we as a community and fan base are totally allowed to dislike something our faves put out bc that definitely happens. i used to enjoy maroon 5's music a lot more back in the days, same with paramore etc, but that doesn't mean we're antis or haters, for sure!! honestly, support what you enjoy, and if it's not your thing and you don't want to stream it, that's okay, too!! idk why there's that much pressure to stream and vote at all lol. but yeah anyway babe, it's super fine to not like 3D. i for one won't ever judge anyone for their opinions as long as we're all respectful with each other and treat other's tastes respectfully as well!!

[datastate]

oooooh i love sharing opinions ❤️❤️

anyways probably my most controversial opinion on yttd is that im a joesara hater. like i just want two main protags who happen to be a girl and guy to stay besties (also at the start of the game joe was so excited to just hold ryoko's hand and i think that is so cute) i genuinely dont care if somebody ships it like do whatever but man sara is such a lesbian and joe is her transmasc bestie

10/10 honestly LMAOO i completely agree with you there! it's just not my type of thing, and it doesn't really add much to their general dynamic imo... at least with how most write/draw them.

most romantic joesara things that i do see are just like. needlessly romantic? like if you want to besties to be openly affectionate with each other, you can... do that. without making it romantic. there's nothing stopping you from giving out platonic physical affection, and honestly joe seems like he would be the type to like being overly affectionate with his friends alongside his razzing?

and yeah the point that the protags should be able to just stay friends and explore the importance of that platonic relationship is just. very important. i think the most sour interpretation of joesara i've seen was one where 1) sara died in joe's place in the first main game, joe became the protagonist and 2) romantic joesara, so you just had joe reminiscing about strictly romantic things he'll never have...? which is just. the COMPLETE opposite of what the game is meant to show.

people are down to do whatever, obviously (& at least it's not like. abuse or other nasty shit), but i feel like it definitely needlessly takes away from the importance of their actual dynamic. and completely disses ryoko, which is incredibly disappointing.

( this is leading into other opinionated territory for me, but based on that last bit - i feel like a lot of people tend to forget that the participants have lives outside of the death game... would know people outside of the death game... obviously there are bonds formed during DG that are important, but it's still. you can't completely forget the background that brought them here in the first place, the motivation to return, all that... it's part of why people are so upset at q-taro, without even trying to understand his situation. i can guarantee you there are more than 12 people at the orphanage, and he clearly has friends he intended to go out drinking with...? if he's playing the numbers game, then... it's worth it. BUT anyway yeah people tend to just shove aside ryoko, or acknowledge her in the relationship but only if it's polyamorous which is... disappointing. i'm all for polyam relationships, in certain scenarios they can be really nice, but here it feels like they felt awkward making her a third-wheel so just reached for the nearest excuse... )

[thefanficmonster]

Begone

Streamer Gang & Asexual Reader (Gender Neutral)

Warnings: Acephobia, Swearing

Genre: Platonic Fluff, Comfort, RPF (Real Person Fic)

Summary: Having recently come out as asexual, Y/N faces some less than pleasant or appropriate responses in their chat during their stream with the gang. Luckily, they’re not alone in battling the haters this time.

Requested by the lovely Anon who told acephobes to begone, yeah you know who you are hehe. Thank you so much for the request darling! Let’s show these acehobes who they’re messing with! Love, Vy ❤

Boy is this nerve-wrecking or what? Sure, I maybe woke up with a ton of confidence, I listened to motivational and uplifting talks and listened to mood boosting music. I had a healthy breakfast and a cup of coffee. Damn it, I went on a run, all in an attempt to convince myself that dealing with the online world again is but a piece of cake for a badass like me. Well, low and behold, that feeling didn’t last very long. Here I am, chewing my nails off at the though of hopping in the Discord call and Among Us lobby with my friends and starting my stream. It’s not like I’m not expecting my friends and fans to support me - of course I am! I know they’re gonna give me a ton of love and appreciation and support and uplift me no matter what. But then again, there’s still those people who believe me and other people like me to be invalid and broken and whatnot.

Those are the ones I wanna avoid. 

It’s not like their words mean much to me but I simply don’t wanna see em, you know? It’s not only about me - it’s least about me actually - it’s more about all those wonderful people they are insulting when they say shit like that about asexuals and all the people on the ace spectrum. I can’t help but flare up and get angry on the behalf of all my ace friends and even people I’ve never met.

It’s also my first time being directly thrown into the fire instead of getting caught in the crossfire seeing as how I came out to my fandom via a tweet and an Instagram post a week ago, telling my identity’s truth: finally bringing my asexuality to the surface to shine its brightest so I can be be my best and reach for my full potential.

But damn am I afraid to see how everyone took it. 

My friends were quick to jump in and take me offline before I start refreshing my own posts to see the comments under them. Lord knows that without them I would’ve driven myself insane, I’ll forever be grateful for what they did and the lengths they went to to keep me offline and whatnot. One word to give you an idea of how invested they were in this: origami. All of us might as well have been born with two left hands and yet we still tried doing origami. Freaking origami.

Damn do I love my friends.

But now I don’t have sheets of paper and my friends to distract me. I have a fanbase to entertain and another friend group I haven’t talked to in a while. I don’t wanna get any predictions in already so I don’t jinx myself, so I’m just gonna say it’s gonna be...interesting regardless of what happens.

Then again, when is it not interesting when the streamer gang’s involved.

Deep breaths, Y/N. You got this

Listening to that encouraging little voice inside my head, I finally equip my headphones and in one fluid motion turn my camera on, officially starting my stream and unmuting my mic as I hop in the call with everyone.

“Hi guys! Guess who’s returned!“ I exclaim cheerfully, desperate to hide the nervousness of my voice.

“You really missed your opportunity to say ‘guess who’s back...back again’ didn’t you?“ Charlie is the one who greets me first, sounding rather disappointed in me in his usual jokester manner. It’s nice to hear, it makes me feel like nothing’s changed in the week I’ve been gone. Like I’m still the same person to these people. I really am the same, I just now am a lot better version of myself. Almost as though I’ve reached my final form. It feels empowering really. “I’m kidding, I’m kidding.” Charlie laughs again, “Congrats, by the way. You keep proving you can get cooler and cooler.“

“Careful there Charlie, I can only handle so large of an ego.“ I joke back, rolling my eyes playfully as a wide grin spreads across my face, “No, but seriously, thank you so much, man. It means the world to me that you support me.“

“Um, how could we NOT?“ That’s very clearly Rae, “Hun, you are so brave and amazing and wonderful, how could we ever NOT support you?“

“Yeah, we’ll always support you no matter what, Y/N. We’ll always be your friends, through thick, thin and beyond.“ Poki too interferes, her words only making my smile wider.

“Alright, alright, y’all are gonna make me cry and I haven’t even read my chat yet, hold on.“ I say, fanning my face to dry the tears I hope the webcam isn’t spotting, “Darn, you guys are the best. Sorry, give me a sec to gather my composure, I’ll be right back.“

I quickly mute my in-game mic as I turn to my chat where I see the same amount of love and support in the form of comments and emojis flooding in from my viewers. A warm feeling spreads throughout my chest, making me feel the most comfortable with myself I’ve ever felt. The most loved I’ve ever felt. The most seen and understood. To finally be you feels like you are finally really living in this world, not like you’ve been already living in it for God knows how long. It makes me so freaking happy and fulfilled to finally be living as me, as the real me.

Unfortunately, in life, nothing can be 100% pure and good. There’s always at least 1% there threatening to ruin all your happiness you worked so hard to build or obtain. It may be one in a hundred, but fuck it’s powerful and effective.

And in my case it comes in the form of two comments that stick out to my eyes. Acephobic comments saying my identity’s fake, claiming I’m faking it, saying us acephobes are immature creatures who refuse to grow up, or attention whores. Or just saying we’re delusional and in denial, confused about who we are.

I hadn’t even realized I was clenching my jaw and fists but when I do, I slowly relax my muscles and crack my knuckles before addressing the two people who spat out that nonsense.

“Ok, listen here, shooterpro69 and yourmom_lol. For starters, I want to apologize for your ignorance and lack of education on the matter of asexuality. In fact, for you especially, I plan on making an educational video, explaining asexuality to people who need or want to learn more. You, my friends, are in desperate need to be fed some knowledge cause damn, God knows how many people secretly think you’re hella stupid. Not that they’re wrong to think so but anyway. Unless you have anything nice or positive to say, begone from my chat. Actually, when I think about it, begone from every chat. No one needs you polluting their communities with acephobia and hate.“ I say, all spoken in a calm tone despite the boiling anger within me. People who know me well would probably be able to tell I’m fuming underneath the calm façade, but at least I got my message across loud and clear.

“WOO HOO, You tell em Y/N!“ Toast cheers, clapping his hands and whistling as more cheering arises from each my friends, leaving me in a state of mild shock and confusion.

Wait, what?!

“Um, wait, you guys heard that?“ I ask, my eyes darting to thein-game mic symbol that shows an not crossed-off mic, meaning it was enabled during the entirety of my speech.

“Hell yeah we did! You slayed them, Y/N! Damn goddamn!“ Rae whistles too, her enthusiasm wafting over me like a breath of fresh air.

“I second that!“ Corpse joins in, “And remember what we said - we’ll support you through anything. Need to bury an acephobe’s body, we’re the people you should call.” He says, confident as heck.

And I just can’t hold it in anymore - I burst out laughing, doubling over from the intensity.

If I thought I was happy and fulfilled before, this has to be the closest to paradise I’m gonna get on Earth.  All thanks to these wonderful people. Friends are really something else aren’t they: they come into your life - often unexpectedly - and change it completely. Suddenly you’re not alone, you’re not forced to deal with everything and face everything on your own. Someone’s got your back and you’ve got theirs.

Through thick, thin and beyond.

And it’s so fucking amazing.

@maat-the-prescriptive  @simonsbluee  @save-the-sky  @itsminniekat  @hacker-ghost  @bi-andready-tocry  @imtiredaffff  @jazzkaurtheglorious  @hereforbeebo  @fandomgirl17  @chrysanthykios  @maehemscorpyus  @loraleiix  @letsloveimagines  @annshit  @i-cant-choose-a-username-help  @enigmaticmaze  @divine-artemis  @waterlilypat  @idontknowwhatthisisfam  @evi-ka  @classyandfabulous00  @redperson58  @lilysdaydreams @solowheein  @mythicalamphitrite  @axen-gers  @luckygirl144  @nj01  @buddyemily   @the-albino-lioness  @stardream14  @gdhdkfnn  @nomadicgypsyy  @preciousskye  @fluffysuicideunicornsworld  @o-kaelin  @manacharlotte  @awkward-youtube-trash  @lolalee24  @bonky-beerns  @meme-lord-and-savior-sebastian  @strawbrinkofdeath  @teenloves  @tams0527  @browneyespinkhair  @starstruckllamapuppy  @daisychains012  @y0ulooked  @tinytacosuitcaseflap @supernatural-is-my-only-life  @jula-pauline  @melodykitty  @just-that-bi-girl  @crazybutconfidentaf  @lowellshade @alphakees  @bellero  @weallneednamjesus  @starryhanji  @boiled-onionrings  @husherstan  @fockingwhore  @melaningoddessthings  @prettypastelpetals  @haleypearce  @godwhyamiawkward  @y-napotat  @daisychainyoonmin  @little-miss-rebel3  @free-wheelin-bi-sexual  @redmoon261 @darkacademic2  @wiseflamingoqueen  @into-the-end  @namikhai-i  @nastiablr  @thelittleplantlover  @mirktuan  @dont-hyuck @jjk-bunny  @vintagegothlover  @easygoingtheatre  @itsrandombooklover  @miiaivi  @emmybaybee  @befourgolden  @jjk-is-my-shit  @eternalteaaars  @spacebadgerx  @princesslunalight  @acequinn14  @samm48  @misselsbells06 @simp-lykawa  @fo-love  @marishimomura-blog  @therealglenncoco  @cinnamonbun332  @killtherandomness  @sanshinexxxsan  @fee-btheweeb  @press-lay  @cathleenpotgieter16  @jazzydoesstuff  @moonlxghtbay  @forestrain2000  @hyunjinhugs  @blood-of-fandoms  @lovellylies  @ukiyolixx  @simpforhpcharacters  @chrisdylan17  @parkerjisung  @pedernille  @theodonyous  @wineandionysus  @malfoystilinskii05  @morbid-x  @coryisagee  @jessewa26  @scoobydooluver97 @mindintheskies365  @raeanneinwonderland  @indecisive-empanada  @gluttonypalace  @loriane2503  @btsiguess-kpop  @khaoticbunny  @lucidlycactus  @smiithys  @rottenroyalebooks  @kpopgirlbtssvt  @fangirl-tc27  @fr0z3n-1  @notmesimpingfortechno  @shotarosleftpinky  @kunoi-chan  @idk-whats-wrong-with-me  @yikeroonie  @goldenstarofthunderclan  @poetry-and-tea  @ama-do-writing-stuff  @wishbonewolf  @emeraldxhope  @t0xick1tty  @kusuinko  @speakyourselfloveyourself  @sophia902103  @lo-manburg  @classsykittykat  @dmgama  @depressedpuppythatneedscoffee  @btsiguess-kpop  @akaashi-baby  @gun-jong-simp  @geschichtenfee  @yerapotato-wp  @browneyedgirl365  @thysagclub  @sparklycloudnight  @helloatomicshadow  @queentorresstuff @vtte @val-gal  @lucy-bunny17  @aaliyahh0  @katluckybear  @boyleanti  @straybids  @franchesca-791  @cosmicstorm19  @averyisbackinthetrashcan  @aomi-nabi  @xlanawriter  @allensimpsforcorpse  @sunnyrae-cessh  @ladykxxx08  @meowiemari

[manchesterau]

my thoughts after reading my policeman: SPOILERSS of course!! (ignore spelling or grammar mistakes) (this is very ramble-y and not as in depth as it could have been sorrryyy lol, if you want specifics send me an ask after reading this)

okay...so i read the book in 3 days....which....im very proud of myself bc it takes me so long to finish books but that’s not why you are reading this.

im not going to lie to you...i liked the book. i love angst, and this had plenty of it and i liked it. if you like books such as: harry potter, six of crows, red queen, red white and royal blue you will not like this book. i know many people found it boring, which yeah i can see that, but i didn't find it boring at all. but mostly because i love boring books but that's beside the point. 

the book flowed easily, there isn't a bunch of raunchy sex scenes that ive seen people say it has (i...the things ive read idk what book they even read????) and Tom does has backward views on marriage and what it means to be a wife. but he is not overtly sexist or misogynist or abusive, or subvertly those things either. to be frank he's a scared gay man in the 50s trying to not get caught and thrown in jail. that's literally it. (ill go more into detail on him later). but if you want to read this book i recommend you go in knowing that there will be homophobia (the word queer is used as a slur....3 times or 4 but no more than 5), expect outing, expect not supportive characters, and remember to have some compassion (more on this later).

next i want to go into characters: starting with tom, then Marion, then Patrick, and then the other characters. so if you are planning on reading this book or just dont want to be spoiled them....don't read the next bit.

Tom:

I'm going to get this out of the way.........Tom (who we never get to know outside of the two-point of views we are presented with, and who is being played by Harry) is a police officer in the 50s UK. to be frank when the rumors first went around I was mad like a lot of people were, which is funny because when we got those pictures of harry reading the book before all the speculation we were....happy, that he was reading a book about a gay man. now...I don't care honestly. I could call out the hypocrites (i won't) and honestly I'm hypocritical myself. I use to watch shows like svu (if you were to turn it on right now I wouldn't turn it off) and I enjoyed watching svu. I know and have seen a lot of mutuals, people on my dash enjoy cop shows like b99, or who like actors who have played the character of police before. so it would be hypocritical of me to be mad at him (this is just my single black opinion) and then go and turn on svu (which I don't do anymore). 

I'm not saying that no one can be mad, I'm not saying that the anger people have at him playing this role is bad or not needed or valid. all I'm saying is.....is that I don't care. I got angry over this months ago, and all that anger I felt I don't have anymore, and I can't tell you why. Harry is playing an abusive demented husband who traps his wife in a simulation, and then he will play a gay policeman trying not to face persecution..........and that's that. nothing I can say will reach him, he's playing these roles and there is nothing I can do. will I watch them (pirating of course) yes.

anyways let's get back to tom's character (do not use my opinion to silence other black people I will find you....don't do that shit weirdo): tom is......tom?? like I literally was expecting the worst when I read this because of what other people had to say. but as I'm reading him through the eyes of Marion (his wife) and through the eyes of Patrick (his...true love, fuck the 50s I hate the 50s) one word came to mind constantly: scared. Tom is very scared that he will be found out and his life will be ruined. His family knows about him, which is why I think his father (more on him later) pushed him to be in the national service (where he was a cook, which disappointed him). you don't realize his family knows and then his sister says something and then you go 'wait....THEY KNEW???' and then you will go 'oh so that's why-' 

tom does have old fashion views that you would expect of any man at that time (gay or not it's the 50s and gay men are still capable of saying sexist shit). when asked by Patrick if women should still work after having a kid he said no it's the men's job to provide, Marion said she would like to keep working, he said no when they do have a baby (they literally never did, and idk why he thought he could be intimate with her for that long to produce a baby lol). that's....the most sexist thing he said in the whole book (there maybe some small things im forgetting but nothing that really stood out). that's it. I know it's not small and that was a legitimate issue in the 50s but yeah. Just in case you were apprehensive about Tom's character being a raging woman-hater, no,....he just wasn't a true feminist yet (???? I don't know that's like..the most this book says about an issue women were facing at this time). It's still bad what he said (you'll see how Marion justifies it in the book and both Patrick and her don't agree and try and challenge him on his view).

i dont want to go too in depth but it is very obvious from the beginning he has no and i mean ZEROOOO interest in her at all (you can tell when it hits him that he needs a wife and he starts to act a littleee different but it's not romantic at alll). 

i feel like my review on tom is shit but like!! we don't really get to know him without bias from Patrick and Marion. I think Harry will play a wonderful Tom (even tho he doesn't not fit the description for Tom...at all....like at alllll).

To summarize Tom: very scared gay man from the 50s who is trying to do everything he can to not be found out. his family knows, even he knew at a young age, and yes he does quit being a police officer but it doesn't happen as soon as id like but then again he wasn't one for that long if you pay attention to the years.

Marion:

😑 

i just...if yall could see the notes i made on her.....

To summarize Marion: SHE IS LIVING IN LALA LAND, TOM LITERALLY SHOWS HER NO ROMANTIC INTEREST AT ALLL, AND WHEN SHE METS PATRICK FOR THE FIRST TIME SHE FREAKING NOTICES THAT HE'S ALL BLUSH-Y AND SHIT LIKE...GIRL.....

this is a note i wrote that sums up her and tom's relationship (which is more like friends then anything romantic i mean god their honeymoon was horrible and he proposed to her....nvm 😑)

listen...i can't lie and say i didn't feel sorry for her up until the end when she (spoilers: she outs patrick to his employer which ends up with him getting arrested). after that...ive never hated a character more in my fucking LIFEEEE like oh my god i was pissed

all she does is have fantasies about him being romantic with her (holding hands, hugging, etc) and none of them come true...BECAUSE HES GAYYYYYY i really....the author could have done a better job because there were so many damn red flags.

she's fucking annoying and whiny and yeah it sucked to be a woman in the 50s but you literally outed someone your husband was in love with and thought that you could just go back to being married like he's not devastated and instead of telling what you did you stayed unhappy and made your husband thing that at any point they were coming for him too.......*****

Patrick:

PATRICKKKKK

Patrick and tom deserved a fighting fucking chance i hate the fuck 50s fuck you 50s!!!! I absolutely LOVEDDD his pov and seeing Tom through his pov like it was just so damn refreshing seeing the world through his eyes and how he navigates his queerness in the society they live in. (the dichotomy between a proud gay man and a scared maybe proud but fear overrules that (talking about Tom here) gay man).

There was a lot more to say on how gay men were being persecuted at this time than how women were treated in this particular book. There were some little things here and there about what was expected of Marion as a wife and of a girl/woman at that time but it wasn't the focus.

I loved seeing the way Patrick navigated through his world of art and creativity. And how Tom seemed to fit right in with him.

I hate the things the author made Patrick go through (outed, sent to prison, stripped of his job, and later on in the present day he has had 2 strokes in his 70s). it felt a bit much but it's not too distracting (Patricks pov takes place in the past as he writes in his journal). 

Patrick and Julia (more on her later) are my two favorites in the whole book (Tom is third bc he's a very multi-facted character, Marion is not even on the list) and I wish we got a lot more of Patrick's pov.

Other characters!! (speed round bc this is wayyy too long):

Syvlie (Tom's sister): SYVLIEEE IM MAD AT YOUU I WAS ROOTING FOR YOU WHYY WHYYY

Julia: JULIAAAAA QUEEENNN (you'll see why i love her at the end) 

Tom's parents: his father is abusive point-blank. or at least i think he's abusive (verbally). as im writing this i am now realizing that the way Tom's mom reacts to him (sometimes crying) is bc they knew he was gay omg wow.

tom's dad is very much a man's man guy?? Picture a sexist man from the 50s....now picture him with a gay son.....yeah, I'm not surprised Tom went into national service then to the police force. you can tell he didn't want anyone to find out about Tom so he pushed him to do what he thought best and Tom went with it, scared. 

overall: please do not go into this book expected things to be all flowers and rainbows...this is a book about two gay men in the 50s yall.....

there is something to be said about the tragedy that is in a lot of queer stories, I'm more interested in how white these stories are (that's a rant for another time). but I don't mind my policeman, and i think stories like this should be told. because this actually happened (here is a link to em forster's story where the author takes inspiration from, he really had an affair with a policeman!!! who had a wife!!!).

the ending is bittersweet, and i couldn't help but curse for what could have been. Marion could have not outed Patrick (which she instantly regretted), she could have gotten a divorce (she even contemplated it), they could have been more secretive, Julia could have not said what she said. I think Patrick and Tom were sadly doomed from the start, I just wish they had more time together because I loved seeing their love (the little glimpse we got) bloom into something bigger than them.

thank you for reading!! here are random screenshots of my notes as i read this lol enjoy!!

can’t*

[people-leave]

Feyre and Rhys

I have a love hate thing for these two.

Feyre had her high and low points. Her lowest was getting revenge on Tamlin. I just couldn't understand why. It made such little sense to me. Even sjm kinda didnt explain that fully. I understand her hurting Ianthia that made sense that was needed. But turning his people against him that didnt. Destroying the closest link to the human realm was stupid.

When Rhys first took Feyre to the night court he wanted Tamlin to work for them. He wanted his help I dont know why they all forgot why he did that. That was strategy, that was needed since the wall was between the spring court.

There are other moments I was annoyed at Feyre such as her 'dealing' with her sisters. And I genuinely feel like that was what she thought she needed to do. To deal with them. Not listen and understand them. Not help them through the transition. Not help them after being ripped from their lives just as she had. But rather they were on a list of things she had to get thru. It was sad tbh.

In terms of being high lady I mean it's just a title that she used when it suited her. And even then used so stupidly. In the meeting it seemed like a power play that wasnt needed since I mean what did it show really? Apart from that she managed to get some of the high lords power.

Generally Feyre managed to do everything but use her powers or is that just me. I mean she had these incredible powers from each high lord and she didnt use one during the battle?? I wont disregard everything she did cos getting all the God like beings into the battle majorly helped and of course with releasing Amren. But again she didnt technically use her powers (that she stole as mentioned in the first meeting). I mean not even once? What was the training for if ur never gonna use it? It was kinda disappointing.

But I still kinda like her. I do think Rhys made her more interesting at some points. Dont get me wrong he annoyed me too. Way more than the first time.

There were just moments that u thought ur the most powerful man and ur failing. I didnt understand moving people here to there. Especially from what was it spring to winter. And then they had to travel back to spring. It seemed stupid. In the second book he had some sort of strategy and in this book half the time I felt like he was a fish out of water.

He also didnt respect/trust his closet people. Isnt the point of having a second and third is so they know whatever your doing or bouncing ideas off. Him calling on Eris before telling Mor was shitty. Him being rude to Nesta was shitty.

But him doing right by everyone was the nicest thing he did. Him sacrificing himself without question was good. But does it negate his shitty behaviour I dont know the younger me who fell in love with him might just think that. The now me cant hate him completely either. I understand what he kinda tried to do in the long run. And just failed cos his a man... haha I'm not sure.

Together again the most powerful man and this women who had all the gifts I cant help but question what's the point of the powers if u dont use them.

As a couple they work like I said aspects of them I liked and then others I just couldn't stand. But I'm not a complete hater. I can always think of atleast 1 thing they did that made me happy or smile.

[docmurph12]

Okeydoke, review time!! As promised it isn't a Disney movie. I am really going to have a lot of fun with this one for a couple of reasons.

One, as many of you know I DEFINITELY drink the DC Comics Kool-Aid. I really enjoy this stuff and while I am definitely able to see its flaws, I have really been into what DC has been attempting in terms of building a cinematic universe, and I absolutely love that DC comic people are getting to play along and have some input instead of it being clueless Warner Brothers head shed dweebs entirely running the show. Now, they do yank the reins a bit, WB is known for being reactionary instead of just going with the plan (looking at you, Marvel Studios) but they have been allowing a bit more freedom than usual and it shows for the most part (looking at you Justice League. Thanks a lot Whedon. Asshole.) The actors have really been into the roles they recieve in the DCEU too, and seem to be doing their research and even taking on leadership roles early in their film making careers (looking at you Margot. Keep doing your thing, I love you)

Two (whew already?), this is going to be a challenge BECAUSE I am a fanboy. I'm really going to try to do my best to be objective on this one and look at the whole picture the first time around.

Three, this one has been sort of polarizing. I am really excited to be taking this one on early in my reviewing "career". My understanding on this one going in is as follows: BOP (c'mon I'm not writing it out folks) was well recieved, critically. I understand it to be largely positively reviewed, with a few perfectionists and blowhards having their say (ugh). It did NOT, however take in the bucks, but it did make a small profit. There have been a few takes on this: One, marketing wasn't great. It took a long time for them to put anything out, and when they FINALLY did it was minimal and confusing. Folks also took issue with the title, saying it was too long. WB reacted (c'mon assholes stop it already you are only proving me right) by changing the title. I dont even remember what it was changed to it was that silly and irrelevant. Two, there MAY be some genre fatigue. Marvel just finished the largest and most expansive cinematic work of all time. This was released just after an unbelievable Joker movie. The only character known by folks not already in the know is Joker's sidekick (originally) and there may not be a Joker in this film, and who would it be anyways, Leto or Phoenix? Plus all anyone wants to talk about at the time was Wonder Woman 84, and confusing news about a reboot (or something?) Batman movie and the state of the MCU. Three, this one takes us from the one shot Joker right back to the universe that Whedon and the Warners potentially destroyed (thanks assholes) with a SUPER botched cut of Justice League.

Enough context, I can't wait anymore for this. (Goddamn finally I thought he would never shut up) On with the show!!

First and most obvious. I love Margot Robbie so much. She clearly has nothing but unconditional and complete love for her character. She has clearly done her research and has the absolute best time becoming Harley. I dont care much for the trash rat aesthetic though. That seems to be something David Ayer and his design staff came up with for Suicide Squad, and everyone REALLY bit into it and I REALLY dont like it. If I HAD to say there was a redeeming factor to it it is that it helps to physically illustrate Harley's fucking nutso disorganized mess of a brain. Other than design it actually seems like everyone did their research, and had a great time, and presented deep, complex characters with solid developmental points, even with the hop around style of storytelling, which in and of itself serves as a great method of telling this story, and surprisingly never leaves you lost.

Callback cliches abound in this one. They dont exactly telegraph it in the set up but man the last 30 minutes are FULL of callbacks to things dropped into earlier parts of the film.

For a film so full of LONG shots, some of the action sequences are awfully cutty. It's really distracting and takes away from the fact that these women did so many of their own stunts and fight scenes.

I loved that this film showed a Gotham that was truly dragged through the dirt. It is violent, pulls no punches and really carries the scenery Zach Snyder set up for this shit town in BVS (I'm not typing out BOP, do you really thing I'm writing that one out?)

I like the setups at the end and the connective tissue throughout to the rest of the DCEU. Well executed without drowning you in it and sacrificing the story. I am, however SUPER disappointed in the absence of a Barbara Gordon. I held out hope there might have been a connection in spite of there not being one in the aforementioned "marketing" but there wasn't anything. It was a good team origin story but I dont much care for a Birds of Prey with no mention of Oracle or Batgirl (if you know who I'm talking about you know why it is important).

Not much in the way of an original score. I dont think the story suffers for it though. A story told by post-Joker Harley Quinn isn't necessarily served by an original score. Distortions of things that are familiar to you are a perfect way of punctuating this one. I dig it.

Not much in the way of effects of this one. Pretty lo-fi as far as medium-big budget comic book flick goes. Well executed. I think the only thing that threw me was Sionis' mask. It is supposed to be made of ebony from his father's casket. It jiggles a LOT for something made of ebony. That said I dont remember that detail being made known so I guess it is forgivable, even if it does look sort of silly in the face (lol see what I did?) of being menacing.

Overall Verdict-- I genuinely dont see the OVERALL hate for DC Comics films. I understand the occasional fuck-up, but Marvel has had missteps too, and dont get this level of hate. This should not have been as polarizing as it was. It is a fun movie. It's not horribly made, in fact quite the opposite. It's an all girl team up a la Deadpool. There was enough for fanboys of the film's, of the comics, and it was good even for those not in the know (just ask my wife, she loved it). Fuck the haters, this is a good one. I could see not only me but my wife rewatching this one.

Final Grade--Solid B+. Give me ALL the long single cut fight scenes and this is an easy A.

[marshmallowgoop]

man, i dunno why so many anons gotta be such massive jackasses, you don't deserve it. hell, i don't even ship ryuketsu (I lean towards a more queerplatonic partnership interpretation, and im generally allergic to romantic shipping anyways) and i still deeply appreciate the thought and research and care you put into your meta.

@eldritchgentleman reblogged your photo and added:

Fuck the opinions of others and enjoy what you love! They don’t own you, listening to them doesn’t make you happy so screw them with a pineapple.

@simon-newman​​ reblogged your photo and added:

Also Ryuko and Senketsu is a valid ship.

@eric-coldfire reblogged your photo and added:

Absolute valid ship, op. Ignore the haters and keep being you.

@kuribo4indahouse​​ reblogged your post and added:

Just laugh at these Goop.

@badgerjaw​​ replied to your post “goops, you’re starting to stoop to the level of those that are bugging…”

I don’t think this anon knows what patronizing means, nor can they tell the difference between getting a big head and acknowledging the amount you do in this fandom. To each their own, nonny, cheers

@badgerjaw replied to your post “You realize some of us don’t have Tumblr accounts, we’re coming over…”

At least the shirt in question can consent; wonder if these nonnies are gonna get on the people who abuse their non-sentient socks?

@korra-n-stuff​​ replied to your post “You realize some of us don’t have Tumblr accounts, we’re coming over…”

can these anons please go away? you’re wonderful goop, dont change. These people just has sticks in their asses

@fromtheriverbanks​​ replied to your post “Guys, come on. It’s a work of fiction. People are allowed to like…”

I love your analysis. I tend to agree with the stuff about Ryuko and Senketsu and think it’s a big part of what makes the show beautiful. If there were PhDs in Kill la Kill, you would deserve one.

Hey, thank you for the supportive comments.

I don’t approve of the behavior of the anons, but it’s totally fair to think that my ship isn’t valid, or my points are bad, or I’m embarrassing and hilarious, with my head up my butt, or whatever. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. And when it comes to my opinions on cartoons, I’m more than open to discussion. That’s why I write so many essays about this stuff in the first place. I want to know what people think. I want to consider other points of view.

The problem isn’t that the anons disagree with me; I don’t mind at all that they do! When it comes to Ryuketsu, I really, seriously, hardly focus on them romantically at all (at least, I think so). I just really enjoy their relationship and find it sweet. Not everyone will think it’s sweet, and that’s fine! You don’t have to follow me or my work. You could even block out all my “ramblings” and just look at my news posts (which I should really get back on…), reblogs, and translations of official material. 

I do a lot of work here, but nobody has to like it. No matter how hard I try, I know I’ll never be good enough for lots of people in this fandom. I won’t lie and say it doesn’t hurt—it does—but I can’t fault anyone for that. I won’t jive with everyone. That’s the way of things.

The problem is that these messages are personally insulting and discriminatory over my opinions on cartoon, and when I defend myself, I’m suddenly the one being cruel. To the anons being less than savory, I struggle a lot with my self-worth. My saying that I don’t think others would think highly of you for attacking me isn’t me being big-headed; it’s simply true. So many people have sent me supportive messages, with their names attached. Just look at this list. If I were to say that your attacking me didn’t matter to anyone else but me, then that would be a slap in the face to those who are going out of their way to speak in my defense. What you’re doing affects more than just me, and given that I still haven’t received any messages on Discord, I feel like you all understand very well that what you’ve been doing is wrong. 

I’m not sorry for being disappointed. I thought our community was better than this. I’m honestly heartbroken that it seems there’s just been this big mass of angry people who were waiting for the opportunity to spam my inbox with hate.

If anyone would like to discuss a problem they have with me, there are so many better ways than to fill my inbox with vitriol. It doesn’t feel good to get called out for doing something problematic, but I am always aiming to be better. If I could be a better person or content creator in some way, or if my readings on this show are really hurtful to you, I am willing to listen and discuss that with you. But I am not okay with being ragged on like this. Nobody should be okay with this kind of treatment over opinions about cartoons.

Oh, and the “shirtfucker” comment is completely uncalled for. Just because I like a character and think that he can be a romantically viable partner for someone doesn’t mean that I suddenly want to fuck him. Believe it or not, you can like someone without wanting to have sex with them or harboring some romantic interest for them.

It was probably inappropriate to write all this on a post meant for thanks. I thank all of you for taking the time to support me. I’ve felt so bad and hopeless, so it’s reassuring to know that I’m not alone, no matter how much I (and these anons) might try to convince me that I am.

In the end, I’m upset with the anons, but I want to know what they would like from me. I’m not asking them to change their opinions, so why should I have to change mine? I agree that what I like is problematic, but I don’t glorify those problematic elements and recognize that it’s totally fair for others to not like what I like because of them. If what I say is seen as so silly and stupid, why care so much to look at my words?

But regardless, I will keep being me. I have too much love in my heart for what I love. I’m very glad that there are others out there who want to love it with me (even if maybe not quite as much!)

[comicteaparty]

November 9th-November 15th, 2019 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from November 9th, 2019 to November 15th, 2019.  The chat focused on the following question:

How do you deal with a lack of engagement from your audience, both emotionally and physically?

IzzyNinjaMaster

Oooo now that's a good question. If my online audience doesn't respond, I personally always show any new page updates to my family and friends and get feedback and comments from them. Really great for support. But sometimes their not available or I don't have anything new to show them. When this happens, I just look to myself for support. I know that doesn't really make sense or sounds kinda cheesy but it's what I do. I get myself pumped up and excited for what I can do next in the story and how awesome it will look all drawn out. And I go from there, I'll start drawing out ideas or writing out new chapters. So just be your own hype man, not just with your comics either but with everything. Great for self esteem.

Sorry went on kind of a rant right there

carcarchu

I prepare myself emotionally to not have any expectations. If you expect nothing and receive something you'll always be happy!

IzzyNinjaMaster

Lol true very true XD

Deo101

I'm not completely sure what this question means by physically, but I just kind of keep making art to move past it. Something that has helped me a TON is to make art that's just for me (like, that I don't post anywhere). I think that if everything is made to be shared, then we get a little too used to trying to find validation with engagement. With comics, specifically, I try to make none of my goals relate to engagement. I only have goals for myself and what i'm producing. If I'm hitting all of my goals, then I feel good about what I'm doing! No one engaging with it is just kind of like "okay!" Another smaller thing that helps me is getting my work done well before I upload it! for some reason just getting a bit of time distance between when something is done and when I post it I dont feel so bad if people don't engage.

Cronaj

I'm fairly lucky that I have a small following on one of the sites I post on, so while some weeks might be slow with feedback or engagement, I'm usually not completely devoid. I also have some very supportive family members who read my comic and often comment or text me after I update. As for what I do personally when I don't have a lot of engagement? I do a lot of self-reflecting, which is probably not the healthiest of practices. I question what I'm doing, trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong and how I could improve. I also try to understand other external factors at play, such as my readers' personal lives, jobs, school, holidays, that might have delayed them from engaging with my work. For example, I know that during November, as we get closer to Thanksgiving, there is going to be a huge drop in readership, because a lot of my younger readers will be preparing for school finals and visiting with family. By knowing this, it helps me cope a lot better. And if all else fails, I vent to my fiance or my little sister. It really does help to have someone to whine at for a bit

khkddn

If I were to get completely zero engagement on something I'd do what I'd always do, message people I know irl like "validate meeeeeeee"

In general I just take a step back from what I've posted and focus on something else. That way I remember webcomics isn't everything, and by the time I check up on things again there might be some sort of audience response.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I kept my work hidden for the first few years I was working on it (wanted to iron out any wrinkles before I was comfortable sharing) so in comparison, any engagement afterward - even a tiny amount - is pretty great! And even now, some updates get more traffic than others, for a lot of different reasons. Luck, timing, quality, etc. I always keep in mind that this project is - at its heart - for me and my own enjoyment/fulfillment. And if I’m pleased with where it’s going, that’s a win.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oof, that question really hit me where it hurts. Over the years I’ve lowered my expectations, because while I used to have an active audience in the ‘00s, I’ve rarely gotten any engagement on my comics in the ‘10s. It’s definitely made me feel depressed and like a ‘failure’ to put heart and soul into my comics and art and get 0 reaction online. I honestly don’t have any way I ‘deal’ with it. I make something, hoping to get some comments > I get no comments > I get depressed about it and feel like my work is garbage. Rinse and repeat several hundred times. I keep going because I just love to create, but it’s like an actor trying to put on a performance and no one shows up to the play. It has gotten better lately and I’ve started getting some engagement for the first time in many years, but I honestly don’t have a good answer for how I handle that emotional reaction to reader silence.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Also good to keep in mind that lots of people may read without commenting, and still enjoy it! I did a poll wondering who would be interested in doing guest art, and way more people responded than I expected. It opened my eyes! Sometimes you just can’t tell until you outright ask for feedback

keii4ii

There's definitely a risk to that, though. You ask and still get nothing. Or worse, you ask and get negativity. Asking is a worthy gamble, but it takes courage! Sometimes when we don't have enough courage, we gotta find it elsewhere first, before we can try that gamble...

I lost that gamble one too many times and need more Courage Fund before I can try again, lol

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

True true! It was a gamble I had no real expectations/assumptions about, so I didn’t have much room for disappointment. Even getting one person who says “This is cool!” is enough to fuel me for days. But I know that’s not how it is for everyone. Once you’ve been disappointed once, it can take a while to get the urge to try again. I can’t imagine getting negativity, though... I think THAT would wreck me.

keii4ii

Sometimes I don't even ask and someone just randomly drops negativity off at my doorstep... I need to remember that I have also had wonderfully positive responses, that it wasn't all negative. But it can be hard to remember that on bad days.

Deo101

Yeah, negative comments always seem to be the loudest ones... They can drown out dozens of good ones if they hit you right.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I did develop a pretty thick skin for negativity in art school, which was really fortunate because my comics garnered a lot of negative attention at first. Though thinking back on it, I was making very androgynous and gender non-conforming characters (even though I never stated anywhere that they were queer) in a time when the public attitude towards such things was far less kind than it is today. At the time it was draining to get so many trolls, but unless I was already having emotional difficulties in other areas of my life, I was able to let it roll off.(edited)

keii4ii

The weirdest thing with my negativity is 99% of them come from actual readers who mean well. So I have a hard time dismissing them like 'oh they're just haters.' It's not necessarily harder than dealing with blatant trolls, but it is an entirely different beast.

Deo101

Sometimes I go and reread positive comments when I'm down about things

Yeah I'm not sure that I've had any trolls tbh... Its all readers saying what they think

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Avid readers who give backhanded compliments and ‘well-meaning’ but very subjective critique can definitely be detrimental.

keii4ii

In Korea, I dunno if they're still a thing, but 1-2 decades ago there was this type of theft called slash theft. It's a type of pickpocketing, done on the street while walking by. They bump into you, briefly and lightly, but you don't think much of it because Seoul is a crowded city and you brush against other people all the time. But during that brief bump, they manage to slash open your purse and take all the contents. It's an amazing ninja level skill for sure. I know people who had their stuff stolen that way. Back to the Courage Fund analogy, sometimes a negative comment isn't just a normal theft of your Fund. The comment slashes your purse open, and now your bag can't contain Fund even if you put more and more into it.

It can take a long time and lots of support to sew your purse back.

Deo101

Idk if other places to slash theft, im sure they do, but im pretty sure historically its been a big thing. The term "cutpurse" comes to mind

keii4ii

(:o I didn't know that was a term! The more you know)

Deo101

(some book i read (wasn't great but you know) used the term a lot and i was like "ok wtf is this")

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

That’s a very good analogy for it, and I definitely understand what you mean. I had to take a three year hiatus from one of my comics once after a IRL ‘friend’ ripped the comic apart and called me a terrible writer in less-than-kind words. I had already been going through some very bad things with my health and family and it hurt me far more than it should. It took some encouragement from some very dedicated readers to convince me to pick up the comic again.

Deo101

(so i associate it with pirates now)

That's really terrible lee... Om glad you picked it back uo though!!!

keii4ii

I can super relate to harsh comments hurting way more than they should, when you're already in a bad state. >_<

Deo101

And also it is a really good analogy keiiii

Yeah things just kinda get harder to deal with in general when you're more tired/upset in other areas

keii4ii

The most devastating feedback I've got would have done far less damage if I weren't in a fragile state at the time.

Deo101

Like you can't go be safe elsewhere if everything is a source of stress...

keii4ii

(For all we know those slashers in Korea could be pirates )

Deo101

:o

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Does Korea have pirates? If so, I’m moving to Korea.

(Sorry, we’ve probably gone way off topic for the discussion)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I got antsy when someone made a small critique of my lettering (rightfully so, though - lettering is hard and I’m still learning) so a proper heart-stabbing, bad-faith critique might sideline me for a while. Gotta be prepared for that someday

Deo101

Its weird, it really seems to be mostly about how I'm doing elsewhere in life now that im thinking about it. Also being further along in the comic helps cause I've got years of support and "just keep chuggin" under my belt

Like the other day someone critiqued me randomly and called my characters stupid and i was like "dam ok, your comment getting deleted then" but a year or so ago a comment like "I'm sorry im a little confused..." Made me second guess everything for weeks

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Ohhh Maybe the obviously mean/troll comments are easier to deal with, than feeling you let down a reader who was genuinely trying to understand the story. I would definitely react similarly.

Deo101

Iunno, the big old critique was a normal reader who has left other comments he jusy kinda randomly did it. But yeah I think it can be easier to shrug off things that are CLEARLY antagonistic versus someone being harmlessly confused

Because confusion can mean I'm not being clear enough and need to change things and whatever. Its vague in a way that hits your anxiety

keii4ii

Yeah, when someone is obviously being a jerk, you know it's on them

omg... reader confusion has been the bane of my existence

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I dunno, man, art school just toughened me up to most negative comments. If one person out of five is confused, I don’t take it personally and just explain it to them to clear up confusion. If everyone’s confused I think ‘Hmm, maybe I should retcon in some dialogue to make it more clear’. I guess art school really teaches you to distance yourself from your work and be very objective about it. BUT as I said, I’m not immune when other bad things are going on and it becomes the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Deo101

Though THEN you kinda get like "why am I being a target???" And its very frustrating, at the very least, and it does definitely still hurt... (Wrt trolls)

keii4ii

It's hard to tell who's confused and who isn't sometimes

Deo101

Yeah Lee im in art school right now, but for me its different when I make something to be critiqued versus a passion long term project

If I am asking for critique too, im braced for it in a way I'm mentally prepared for. Im not always braced to have someone be like "its pretty good buuut..."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Ahh, I can understand that. I guess I’m able to view my passion projects the same way I did my school projects. It took time, that’s for sure. It’s a process of desensitisation, and was something I had to build up over years.

keii4ii

I'm disproportionately sensitive about reader misinterpretations/confusion. I'm 95% sure it's because one bad experience. Someone thought my main story was garbage, but they liked parts of it, so they told me to basically make a different story using those parts. After that, every time a reader didn't recognize the main story (I got a very prominent B plot, so it's kinda understandable that some people mistake it as the A), I got vivid flashbacks of that one bad experience. Every time someone said they liked [this character that The Other Person liked], I got flashbacks. Took me good 2-3 years to get over it.

Deo101

Its also a lil different when it's like.. i wont be changing these pages so unless it's a critique for moving forward its kinda pointless and i cant really apply it

Damn keiiii that's really rough

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, that sucks.

keii4ii

Yeah, it's hard to be motivated when the underlying message is "your first 100 pages are hot garbage, but you can still improve........ even if readers will give up long before they get to the decent 101st page!"

Deo101

RIGHT...

I don't want to have to preface "check out my comic!" Wirh "i promise it gets better..."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

COUGH That’s exactly why I’m reduxing Eryl’s hot garbage beginning right now COUGH

Also because I’m a masochist and perfectionist.....

keii4ii

I think "it gets better" is fine when it's a reader reccing it. (I remember some of my friends reccing multi-season anime series to each other, going, "it gets better after season 1") But yeah, as the author we can't be the ones saying it.

Deo101

Mhm.

And I'm still hapoy with my old pages. I know I could do them better now but they're perfectly fine and they get the job done so... Idk its just hard when someone is like "wow two years ago you made a mistake, :/"

Like. Yeah, duh... I've spent like a thousand hours on pages theres gonna be some mistakes

keii4ii

It took me a long time to realize that Flaws =/= Problems

Deo101

I'm learning and getting better youre gonna have to bare with me here

Nutty (Court of Roses)

are you kidding i still get crit on stuff i made TEN years ago

Deo101

Mhm

keii4ii

omg

Deo101

Well its not a competition

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Same, Nutty

Nutty (Court of Roses)

True sorry ;;

Deo101

Ur name just changed colors keiiii

You: flaws =/= problems Your name: im ascending

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think...learning how to like not be bothered by negativity that much is a skill. Super freaked out one time when someone said they didn't know what's going on when reading HotV whoops

(turned out they just had to re-read a bit and it was just webcomics being webcomics)

Deo101

I had a group of readers say they were co fused and one person asked me to explain the last 2 chapters and i was like "holy shit am i being this unclear????"

Its stressful for sure

Nothjng wrong with being concerned with ut

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Keiiii has reached a new plane of existence. The blue is unrefutable proof

Deo101

Its something you're passionate about and you want to be as good as it can be

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah...

Deo101

So any critique, regardless of validity will be something you WANT to consider

Which is fine and theres nothing wronf with taking things to heart like that

But also if youre Happy with it that's all that matters

You gotta be your #1 fan kinda thing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm personally super uh...yeah I am having a hard time dismissing criticism

even if it's in bad faith, haha.

keii4ii

The #1 fan thing sometimes reminds me of that scene from Lilo & Stitch

The scene of Lilo's rag doll. It's been years since I watched it, so memory's a bit fuzzy, but I think all the kids were showing off their dolls, and Lilo wanted to show off hers too

but the other kids didn't like her homemade-looking doll, and it made her sad, almost not like her doll for a moment

but she picks up the doll again afterward

There are days where I relate to that. I never not-love my story and my characters, but sometimes I feel like everyone else has a low opinion of it, you know?

and I'm like lonely Lilo hugging her rag doll in the sad corner

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah I totally get that and...loving what you do first and foremost is really important. I don't think in a medium like webcomics you would be able to keep going

keii4ii

I'll always love my Doll but I do wish this little corner weren't so lonely, kinda thing

Deo101

I feel that keiiii

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmm

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

When the ‘critique’ is detrimental it does become a problem. Like that ‘friend’ I was talking about earlier who bashed Eryl to bits. He told me to ‘read some Stephen King’ to learn how to write. I was making a high fantasy story, not a horror story. The writing of a horror author is simply not applicable to building a good fantasy adventure story. That’s when I knew he was full of shit. But the damage had been done, and I lost all motivation for the project for years.

keii4ii

uuugh, I'm so sorry that it happened to you D:

Deo101

Also this story is one that i have dropped and picked up SO many times, and its wildly changed over and over, and so i worry a lot im not making it in its final form, i suppose. I worry i started it too young, and so critique of the older parts hits that anxiety

Wow lee that's terrible...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Gosh...

Deo101

Also you can't really compare Novel writing to comics imo. The structure can be compared but...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think HotV is like a project I've worked on since...2008? And it changed with me and I feel pretty confident that it's in its final stage.

keii4ii

and not every story needs to be a Stephen King story

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

But yeah, you can really not compare writing for novels to writing for comics wth

nah

tbh it's weird (I like King personally) but his stories and also his writing do have flaws too so

what

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I actually do use novels as a source to study how to construct my comics. But! Studying the right genre is important. I’ve the feeling the only books that guy read were Stephen King, so that’s the only kind of story he was familiar with.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

God when I was still developing a picture I did got featured somewhere and someone criticised the way I did knees and linked to the picture of another artist going: Hey draw knees like that

Deo101

Every story will have flaws, its impossible to make one that is perfect. Well. Its impossible to make a story thats perfect for everyone. So alk you can do is try to make a story thats perfect for you!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Agreed, Deo

keii4ii

^ THAT REMINDS ME

Deo101

Omg

keii4ii

(going back to the original question) With no response, or negative response, one thing that helps me is hearing other people gush about their beloved unpopular stories!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmmm

Deo101

!!!!!! Me too!!!!!!!!!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I am having this problem and went to ask on twitter what ppl loved about their projects

and that's really uplifting somehow

Deo101

I LOVE reading other comics and just seeing how much passion is in them its like a light

keii4ii

I need to remember that just because someone, or even a lot of someones, thinks a story is trash, doesn't make it the universal truth

Deo101

^^^

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I WILL GUSH ALL DAY BOUT MY BELOVED UNPOPULAR STORIES and once you open that damn I am unstoppable. You will regret it, trust me.

keii4ii

And people gushing about their unpopular favorites is an excellent way of reminding myself

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hehe

Deo101

I have been very lucky and have had a few incredibly kind people who i can remember fondly when i worry my story isnt reaching people. I Know it has touched a few lives, and if it makes even ONE person happier (even if thay person is me) then im doing my job and its worth all the time and effort.

That was kind of off topic i swear it connected in mt mind

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Absolutely

I feel it's connected

Deo101

Phew

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

bc hmm it's a way to deal with times when there is not much engagement?

Deo101

Aha! There we go yes :)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I do generally write very off-beat, unpredictable stories because I like reading / watching those kinds of things. A lot of my favourite movies bombed at the box office because they weren’t formulaic, which was what I loved about them.(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Remind yourself that there is people who enjoy what you do and who are happier bc of it C:

Deo101

Mhm ^^

Also i have my characters on a shirt so i can just wear that and be like "fuck yeah. I have a shirt. It cant be a bad comic if I've got merch babeyyyy"

Which admittedly is a very odd way of dealing with anxiety

But like.... You should get your Characters on a shirt.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

dfhwioufheuf Deo that's cool tho

I made so many like...background designs and posters for HotV and some of those I WANT ON A SHIRT

Oh I think what also helps me is to find a friend and just talk about the comic?

Deo101

The place i use lets you get up to 6 items a month as a sample order and it's severely discounted my shirt was like $15

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I should do that. I have designed some T-shirts but that wasn’t for personal stuff.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

omg

keii4ii

I'm actually in the (long) process of re-learning how to talk about my comic

Deo101

And yeah for sure having people i csn talk with/joke with about my comic helps soooo much

Like the fact that i know these 5 people will get my jokes like this

THAT helps a TON

These people actually are the reason I was confident enough to be able to start after having a bad friend drive me to almost drop the story for good

So having their support is probably one of the biggest things thst helps if no one else engages.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Okay, so on the original subject of ‘How to deal with no feedback’ I do talk about my stories a lot with my two best friends. They are my biggest fans and my sounding boards. They let me go on and on about plot threads in my comics and it’s one of the main reasons I keep going. Even when I get 0 reaction online, I still have two people who I know are reading the comic and think I should keep going.

Deo101

Or like, when my family is being homophobic about my work kinda thing. Friends are good for that...

Yessss lee having people you can talk with about it is SO good

keii4ii

ngl, I'm jelly of those of you who have go-to support friends who are genuinely into your story! That's something I hope to have some day, myself

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t know whether to give a sad react for homophobic family or a happy react for supportive friends

Deo101

Happy react ^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Still sorry about your homophobic family tho, but your friends sound awesome

Deo101

Yeah but :> I know I'm doing good work. Again those few people who i know my story has touched.. i know I'm doin good work.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

@keii4ii Just know I’ve been an acid fan of your comics for over 10 years and honestly think they’re some of the best comics I’ve ever read

AVID

NOT ACID(edited)

keii4ii

Hey acid is important too

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

GOD MY PHONE

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hiodcnioefwe acid

love this

I have one friend who has supported me since 2007 and I can always count on her freaking out about my comics Y_Y

so when I feel especially bad I turn to her

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My phone is old and the keyboard lags and autocorrects like AAAAARGH(edited)

Deo101

Its okay same here lee

Typo club babeyyyy

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have to edit almost every comment I make THANKS A LOT PHONE

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

shakes fist at ur phone to be more kind

I can't type on phone at all so...

keii4ii

Yeah, swipe-typing is high level sorcery to me

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As someone who’s normally a grammar freak it causes me great pain that my texting is a syntactical disaster.

Deo101

I've been doing swipe a bit lately so it doesn't hurt my hands to text (I Tex too much)

keii4ii

This actually makes me wonder

What are some good, safe(ish) ways to reach out to people who may be 1000% willing to become that Support Pillar for your comic?

Deo101

I just straight up start doing it

keii4ii

For all I know they exist. But.. Schrödinger's pillar

Deo101

And gague the reaction

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As an antisocial gremlin who hides under a rock, I have no idea.

Pakky

never hurts to ask

keii4ii

@Pakky You would be surprised

Deo101

Start sharing art, see if theyre curious, get deeper if they're good with it, kinda thinf

I've got friends who like to see my art but don't really care about my comic, and you kinda just gotta take it case by case

Pakky

mm fair enough, i always try to be supportive of content creators mostly because i would hope for the same in return. theres a lot of bluntness in my industry so if you do well you get praise but if you do poorly, you very well know it :/

keii4ii

Me: "Thank you for supporting my humble comic!" (this wasn't even asking, just thanking) Reader: "Well, your comic isn't that good." Me: "?????????"

Deo101

Wh

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’ll be honest, on the rare occasion a reader starts trying to get really close to me, my dumb brain freaks out and I put some distance in because I have Issues for days.

Pakky

thats just rude on their part

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

what

holy fuck

keii4ii

I've Been Burned

omg, that question mark react is so appropriate

Deo101

I've chatted with some readers here or there but I don't know if id wanna use them as a support pillar

I kind of have trained myself to think readers as fickle.

If they get sick of my story, theyre allowed to leave

They dont owe me their time or energy and them being here is a gift

So I'll chat and stuff and answer questions but unless someone is my friend i will not lean on them for support.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly it’s happened that I’ve gad readers try to get really close or be my sounding board, and I think they were just trying to be enthusiastic and supportive but my stupid broken brain always panics and goes WARNING STALKER ALERT WARNING ABORT ABORT.

Deo101

Hey better safe than sorry

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

juppp

Deo101

I'll chat but i wont give personal information and im not gonna like, get all into spoiling everything im planning lmao.

If someone asks me a question thats a spoiler ill answer it in private

But bringing raw ideas up for help... I need very specific people for thst.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

The thing is they weren’t even being creepy or trying to get really personal. They were just very friendly and I apparently can’t handle that. ><

Deo101

The friend group i get writing helo on are all writers, and they all understand my vision. They don't write stories like mine, i dont write stories like theirs, and we all fully understand our suggestions may go unfollowed.(edited)

Also whoever put the eye emoji yeah if u have a question straight up dm me and I'll answer.

keii4ii

It's okay, your comfort is important. If you want to be more open, you can work on that. But not everyone has the same comfort level and that's okay too

Deo101

Yes! Its all about what you're comfortable with

But I've personally got a small curated group of writers/artists who all circulate our work between eachother

Which i know is very rare.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Same, Deo...helped me a lot and I also know who to turn to when I'm down about engagement

Deo101

Mhm ^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(also they are all perceived better than me so I believe them if they say sth nice)

Deo101

Omg

That group of people have done SO much for me honestly. Im thinking about them. I love my friends.

Also dont worry its nit all about me they also talk about and we help their work too i wanna be sure thats clesr

keii4ii

I figured it was all mutual! but now that you've said it's not all about you I'm suddenly imagining The Cult of Deo

That is 10000000% wonderful though

Deo101

I walk in and I'm like "y'all check out this new millennium lore" and they all take their hoods off and start scouring it for plotholes

keii4ii

Whilst sitting in a circle (a magic circle to be exact)

Deo101

Of course of course

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Damn, that’s awesome! I only see my friends every few months so I dump a lot of plot on them all at once, and it’s harder for them to give really detailed critique. XD

Deo101

Oh, I do this all online

Irl I sit down with my sister and we talk for 4 hours and Lose our voices LMAO

Cronaj

Good convos literally ALWAYS happen while I'm at work

keii4ii

I'm still here

Cronaj

Good, because it made me sad when you said you didn't have a support pillar

And that readers are fickle (which can be true)

But I don't think you know how much I love your comic

keii4ii

I'm seriously honored! I still fear that maybe people are not seeing the story I'm trying to tell, and are following the comic for some other reasons (which is valid, just not what I'm trying to achieve). But hey, I'll never find out if I don't keep going, right?

kayotics

keiiii, i love your comic and i think it's beautiful in many ways, not just the art

but also, on the topic of lack of engagement... I'm pretty fortunate in that my spouse is always really supportive of my comic, so when I need a little pep talk I can always ask them

sssfrs

I’m trying to collect as much negative feedback as I can so that I’ll know my comics strengths and weaknesses and I’ll be prepared to take criticism as it comes in the future. It is pretty frustrating having no response or fanbase right now but I started my comic pretty recently and theres still time for growth

Glowbat (Aloe)

when you're collecting feedback be mindful that there's a difference between constructive criticism and people being unhelpful and simply telling you they don't like your work

the latter wont do anything but bruise your self confidence(edited)

keii4ii

Yeah, and sometimes even well-meaning critiques can miss the point too, like if it comes from someone who thinks your work should be X, when it is intended to be Y. Easy example: My previous comic was a depressing drama centering around a terminally ill young woman and her doctor, and once someone told me I "needed more fight scenes." It wasn't even an action comic! In that case, the lack of fight scenes was not a weakness. It simply meant the comic wasn't for that person.

DanitheCarutor

On the topic of lack of engagement. My answer is really boring, but I just keep working on my comic regardless of how much/little engagement it gets. I never intended or expected to have an audience to begin with since my comic has sooo many problematic elements in it, whenever I get feedback it's super nice! Always a surprise, like seeing the machine light up when winning $500 on the penny slots! (In a way, getting engagement is kinda like gambling. You post a page and you may or may not win some comments in return... Not equating real people to items to win, of course!) Admittedly, if there is a page I feel would cause reaction but I get nothing, it is a little sad. It's not the end of the world, though! I got a story to tell, and as long as I can still draw I'm content.

kayotics

i relate to that a lot, Dani. I also never intended to make the comic for anyone but me, so the fact that anyone reads it is really exciting to me.

Cronaj

@keii4ii (Potentially off-topic, but is there somewhere to read your other comic(s)? Or are they all in Korean?)

DanitheCarutor

@kayotics Every so often I look at my reader base and think "Man, there are people into this kind of stuff??" It's an almost surreal feeling.

kayotics

Yeah I get it! I wouldn’t say mines too out there but there’s so many other fantasy dnd inspired comics out there that they could read that I’m surprised they even glance at mine.

AntiBunny

How do I deal with it? Usually experience a series of emotions such as "how hard is it to leave one little comment you losers?" Then "Who am I kidding, no one is reading this, I'm creating into a void," and finally pry a few comments from people who know me personally, reassure myself that I create out of a compulsion to tell my stories even if no one's reading, and start the process all over for next week. Not exactly a healthy method I admit.

keii4ii

@kayotics There is only one Toivo out there

@Cronaj aaaa the previous one was in English. But I would not recommend it It's unfinished (though it does have more than 600 pages IIRC) and honestly really rough.

kayotics

@keii4ii true....... one weird wizard boy

Cronaj

Dang... I LOVE medical stories. I'm seriously addicted to them. @keii4ii

keii4ii

I enjoy them too and I appreciate your interest!

Cronaj

scours the internet for the lost records

keii4ii

The site layout is also broken so yeah...

I guess another thing I do is try to comment more on other people's comics, to rec them publicly, etc. Being the change I want. I don't do this as often as I want, but I think/hope even the little bit I do counts.

mathtans

Heh, I'm basically with Cap'n Lee in terms of a cycle. I think part of my issue is I won a fanfic competition in 2004, and it's kind of been downhill since. I've posted regularly to a serial site for over 4 years, accumulating 300 posts, and last month it had 100 total views... there's been 2 comments since March.

On the actual comic side though (not serial) I've relaunched it more than once, and tried to flag the more recent index as a starting point. And yeah, just hold on to the few good comments, like the guy who applauds me for continuing to post even though I only have 10 people following on Tapas.

These days, of course, I'm too darn BUSY to really think much about the lack of engagement. So one solution might be to get married and have a kid. Then you're just happy when you manage to get content out, never mind if anyone remarks on it.(edited)

Mharz

Popping here just to answer the question becos it's interesting. The lack of engagement was a bane in my existence and honestly one of the factors why I had to see a psychiatrist. My doctor told me I have self-esteem issues which leads me to seek validation from strangers. This is the first thing I work on. I have to be confident enough to not break even if nobody likes my stuffs. Which means I have to love myself first. (People prolly see me as vain at this point) Second thing I do is keep a mentality of "nobody has to care. They have things going on as well" which helps me appreciate the small percentage of people who actually took the time to engage, talk, and be friends with me. I also try to put a positive spin on it. "Nobody cares therefore I can make as much noise on my social media as I want and no one will bother criticizing becos nobody cares." If people unfollow, it's on them. It just means they're not really a fan of my work and I shouldn't waste my time. And if my mental illness is too much, then I will disconnect from the online world a bit. Treat myself. Do something fun like gaming and baking and hang out with friends IRL if possible.

Mharz

I sometimes think it's karma on my end becos I'm so vain, I rarely get interested in anything so I'm not really a fan of many stuffs so that is something I accepted as well.

AntiBunny

Perhaps being a webcomic author sort of goes hand in hand with needing validation.

MJ Massey

OH BOY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A LACK OF ENGAGEMENT?!

over the past week, I got 24 users. Granted, I didn't update, so that's probably why

So this is a four month overview of my website traffic. I hit a high of 184 unique users in August, and after that it plummeted to just barely over 100. And I hadn't really done anything different

I have never really gained a lot of traction with my comics. I'll admit that Black Ball definitely has more appeal than my last comic, so I have slowly been building an audience with it, but it's still been very slow. Sometimes it feels like I have to adhere to some extra set of rules while others can just throw up their comic on Tapas and have instant success. Of course, that's not the case at all

the key is to remember "why am I doing this? isn't it because I love making comics?!"

and to keep on pushing, keep up that hustle, and enjoy the ride. Make great content and it will be rewarding in and of itself

carcarchu

I'm not really sure it's as simple as simply throwing something up on tapas and getting instant success. there's a lot of work that goes behind every comic even if you don't perceive it

MJ Massey

well yes of course, I'm just saying sometimes it SEEMS like that

I'm a marketing professional, so I know there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes

Glowbat (Aloe)

theres, i think, a lot of factors in certain comics gaining traction faster than others that are mostly out of a creator's control. on mirror sites like webtoons or tapas you have to factor that more attention is given to certain genres and art styles over other because of what that crowd likes. if they're into slice of life romances in anime-esque styles then someone who writes fantasy mysteries in a more western influenced style may not get as much love as they deserve

its tough out there

ive been fairly fortunate to gain a steady bit of followers on tapas but on webtoons my reader engagement and subs are significantly lower

Glowbat (Aloe)

i chalk it up to the type of crowd

MJ Massey

I've been analyzing my audience and my work and have a hypothesis that my work just works better in bulk format. I think 2020 will be a year of transitioning into bulk distro instead of the page at a time format

and see if that helps. As well as some new marketing techniques and getting back into the con circuit

Kabocha

A lack of engagement... This is definitely... a topic. I feel like, sure, one's general marketability in any given platform will definitely make it easier or harder to attract an audience, but on the other hand? It's also worth making sure you kinda figure out what you want out of webcomics. Some people have been working on their projects (or existing within a fandom) for years - decades, even at this point, which can be a big boost to initial readership on a new project! Other people just have the advantage of being able to sit down and advertise, or having someone do that for them. Personally, though. I went in not expecting to get an audience, and for a long time, actively avoided even having a comment section on my site. I just enjoy making comics and creating things - and if it happens to make someone happy, that's awesome. But comics and art aren't the only thing I do in my life that make me happy, and I've found engaging other people directly about things like comic craft and resources to be about 100x more fulfilling than posting comics themselves. (And it is fun, sometimes, to gush about my OCs and how dumb they can be.) But how do I cope with it? Eh, it's honestly not a big deal to me. It feels less stressful in some regards, because the dayjob can get hella hectic, and trying to balance "OH GOD COMICS" with "OH GOD THE SERVERS NEED PATCHED ALL NIGHT TONIGHT" can be.... interesting.

(But oh god, I will admit, having someone come up to me and say, "I read your thing or used your photoshop/csp brushes" can be incredibly motivating. But other days, I have to be my own motivation, so...)

kayotics

Sometimes it’s helpful to keep a list of really nice comments or to write down memories of when someone told you they like your work. This can take a while to gather but if someone says something nice about your work, keeping it somewhere safe for a day you’re feeling bad can help boost that morale

It also helps me sometimes to think about how there’s a TON of people who never comment on things, but they’re probably regularly reading.

MJ Massey

Totally! I was building a landing page for my email subscription, and I was able to go back and find old reviews from my last comic, and it really got me pumped

Kabocha

Yeah! When I worked in a call center, the metrics on calls in -> surveys was something like... At best, you get 10% of your callers leaving surveys. And it's usually because you left an impression (good or bad). Usually the reality was at best, you'd hear back from about 2% of your userbase unless you gave them an incentive them to say something.

Mharz

re tapas and other platforms: I have to agree that certain genres really are more appealing there. I have two comics with different genres that I regularly update and the numbers are literally like night and day. It's a sad truth.

Mharz

I also love getting notifs on tapas when a person is binging my comics and liking every update. It means I got them hooked. :'3(edited)

nice reminder that there ARE people who like my comics.

Kabocha

Well yeah - even in traditional publishing, some genres generally get larger readerships than others (and higher advances) because they're more easily marketed. There's a reason why some publishers will categorize what's basically a fantasy story with romance subplots as a "romance" overall for a relatively unknown author (it's because they're more likely to attract more readers because romance is HUGE)

MJ Massey

true that

and you have to find where you audience lives as well

Kabocha

Yeah... I have some readers who only engage when they come back to catch up, which can be every 6weeks or more. Some only read when a chapter is done being posted, which is about every six months.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Re: Tapas. Yeah, Tapas especially has very particular styles and genres it likes (anime style + romance, especially BL). I posted Children of Shadow there for six months and had 20 total subs before taking it down. A while later I tried posting it on Webtoons and got 60 subs in one week. That level of engagement slowed down considerably almost immediately though, because the prologue episode is in colour and the main series is greyscale - and I discovered the hard way that the majority of Webtoons’ users do not like greyscale (I even got rating-bombed over it). My second comic is doing much better on Webtoons since it’s in digital colour rather than pencil like Children of Shadow. Each platform has its specific interests and it can be a struggle to get noticed if you’re not making something that falls into its normal styles and genres.

Glowbat (Aloe)

both tapas and webtoons really dont push their scifi comics hardly at all. Tapas' top scifi section is littered with discontinued stories (at least theyve abandoned tapas at any rate idk if theyre for sure no longer continued) which means that because i update weekly and sorta fall into a semi-anime inspired style i get some decent traffic from the small demographic who go hunting for a scifi comic

RebelVampire

That's not that surprising, tbh. Even in the realm of novels sci-fi is more of a hunt for where the audience is sometimes.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Scifi is an under-appreciated genre, imo. Unless you’re Star Wars, Star Trek or a Marvel comic, it seems like people don’t talk much about scifi.

It might help boost views if you rework your genre labels on places like Webtoons. Like, have Adventure or Drama as your main genre tag and Scifi as your secondary genre.

Glowbat (Aloe)

actually ever since avas demon went on webtoons ive been getting about 10-15 subs a week there

for a while i had listed aloe as drama first but the results werent fantastic as i think that genre has been flooded over there

keii4ii

I think sci-fi has some very prominent associations with the genre that don't apply to every sci-fi story -- e.g. the first thing a lot of people immediately think of is spaceship explody battles. So if someone sees sci-fi and they're not into spaceship explody battles, they won't read.

Glowbat (Aloe)

i may try adventure though if scifi doesnt pan out

keii4ii

Alternatively, if someone sees sci-fi and they ARE into that... and only that... they will leave once they find out the comic is not about that

Glowbat (Aloe)

thats also a good point

keii4ii

I've had similar difficulties even though fantasy is more widely accepted these days as a more varied mega-genre

People expect X, comic contains only a sprinkling of X and is about Y instead.

Glowbat (Aloe)

in my personal case, i've alienated potential readers i feel sometimes simply by having the cast be primarily lgtbq with an agender lead. but i dont regret that and im happy to have it deter people who arent down for that

RebelVampire

That is definitely true about sci-fi. Film has really biased people as to what fits sci-fi, where in reality sci-fi is a really wide genre. So a lot of stuff never gets a chance cause it confuses people.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Yooooo i feel that, glowbat. On one hand, I want ppl to know that my comic is a safe read for LGBT, but at the same time I know that announcing it as such will deter others on principle.

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

I feel the same way. The whole cast of Wayfinders is some form of lgbt+, but we don't actually adress it much, because it's an adventure story moreso than a romance. So it's like.... how do we tell the readers it ain't straight

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Fantasy does seem to get drowned by numbers. Eryl gets about 5 new subs per update and Children of Shadow only gets 1-2, and I think they’re just getting lost in the crowd.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Two of my characters jokingly told each other their identity through bard puns, plus I keep pushing for gay ships within the story, so I'm pretty overt with my readers about it ahaha.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

@The Q - working on WAYFINDERS I’m having some difficulty with that dilemma, too. Both my comics feature large LGBTQ+ casts but romance isn’t the focus of either. It often feels like there’s no good way to bring it up naturally until the romance threads surface very far into the story, and I’m always worried about homophobes lashing out when they eventually discover the comic is G A Y

Glowbat (Aloe)

in my descriptions i describe the comic as a lgbtq+ themed scifi flat out

keii4ii

Early in HoK, one character embarks on a journey for a personal reason, and the MC tags along. I've semi-recently heard from an American friend that she didn't really get the character's reason. He wanted to take a younger family member away from a bad living situation, but to the friend, the situation didn't seem so bad. After some talking, we realized it was a cultural thing. The situation was very obviously bad to Koreans, but it didn't/doesn't seem like a far departure from the range of normal life in the US, for cultural/societal reasons. I suspect that was a big part of the reason why people kept pegging my comic as a "fun adventure romp" despite the lack of fun adventures (it has elements of adventure, but is not that as a whole). The reason for the journey seemed superficial, like the author (me) just needed an excuse to start the Fun Adventure-Filled Journey. Whereas Korean readers, back when I was publishing it in Korean, immediately understood it was an intensely personal, difficult task that the shy boy decided to accept for the sake of love.

And yeah, LGBTQ+ as a tag/ part of the description seems like a good option to me too!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But then I’m also anxious that LGBT folks will think that’s false advertising because the characters’ labels aren’t mentioned until really far into the story (and it’s no where near that point yet). Aaaagh maybe I just overthink everything.

Glowbat (Aloe)

its really interesting to hear the difference in reception HoK gets

keii4ii

Yeah and the setting itself apparently feels different, too! To Koreans, it evokes secondhand nostalgia. But some non-Koreans have told me it feels fantastical and Ripe For Adventures

Glowbat (Aloe)

I feel you Lee- almost none of my chars have mentioned or done anything to illustrate their identities yet

keii4ii

(I also feel the need to mention, there have been non-Korean readers who got what HoK was about. Those readers mean so much to me! But I don't know if they understood that particular detail about Danbi's motivation for the journey early on.)

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

(I'm gonna put so much lbgt+ love in the background of the story everytime they get to a new city ahahahaha >:) )

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

To me, @keii4ii HoK is very reminiscent of Studio Ghibli films because I get similar whimsical vibes. But Studio Ghibli has always been more about emotional journeys so after a couple chapters I was like ‘Ah, yes, I think this comic is about the characters’ emotional growth’(edited)

Holmeaa - working on WAYFINDERS

(muhahhaa, also just let Sallly flirt with all the ladies in the BG)

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss flirt with ladies

MJ Massey

I'm worried that my comic is not "gay enough" to warrant the LGBT+ label. The character's sexualities have very little to do with the actual story, and one character is actively hiding their identity

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

SAME

keii4ii

I'm aro/ace/agender and I don't really feel "LGBTQ+ enough" so I can't really use the LGBTQ+ label for my own comic, even though I know the label isn't exclusively for ownvoices stories.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I admit I’m not sure I ‘got’ Danbi’s motivations on a cultural level, but I felt like the tone being presented in that scene made it pretty clear she was in a bad situation?(edited)

Holmeaa - working on WAYFINDERS

but... we have calculated a total of 1 straight character in our whole comic.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

‘She’ as in the niece, not Danbi. XD(edited)

MJ Massey

that's what it seemed like to me too, or at least that by leaving their village they were going to a better situation

Glowbat (Aloe)

first of all- high fives keii because agender solidarity and second of all if you have chars who identify as either not straight or not cis or both rolled into one then its gay enough to have the lgbtq label

to heck with gate keepers

there are plenty of queer peeps who just want to read stories that casually include people like themselves

but if you dont feel its needed you dont have to either

MJ Massey

I guess there is a certain expectation when you say "I make an LGBTQ+ comic" of how that comic will be, and I don't want to disappoint people or set them up to expect something different

I just figure that all kinds of people exist in the world, so I should include as many different kinds of people as I can in my work

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I probs should just put LGBTQ+ labels in the descriptions and be like ‘this is genre fiction but almost everyone’s queer even though you can’t tell yet’. XD

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I use the term "LGBT-friendly" to indicate that they're present, but might not be the full focus

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I write genre stories because I’m not that into romance-centric stories myself. I want queer heroes in the kinds of stories I like to read without the entire focus being on their sordid love-lives. I just want to read about the hero who slayed a dragon to rescue his prince instead of his princess, lol.

Glowbat (Aloe)

lol im in a similar position where i'd rather see the hero befriend the dragon

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have plenty of that in my comics, too!

There’s some nice dragons and some very-not-nice ones. XD

Glowbat (Aloe)

(im insufferable in d&d i was a bard who tried to be friends with everything)

eryl is on my lisssst <3

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

This is why I love bards

Glowbat (Aloe)

hehe

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm always happy when people mark their stuff as LGBTQ+ if characters are present tbh Y_Y

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Also agreed with everything said above

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

All right, now Imma definitely have to add the LGBTQ+ labels to my comics next time I do website maintenance.

Glowbat (Aloe)

yay!

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Aw ye aw ye

Join the brigade

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yiss

I feel a bit bad bc I rarely read sth that's not clearly marked as LGBTQ+ or where I know the authors are part of the community whoops

But it's mostly the fact that I consumed hetero-focused media my whole life and now I can...choose.....

the dream

Glowbat (Aloe)

heck yes

im way more drawn to stories that are marked lgbtq+

keii4ii

Don't feel bad, because seriously, even if you exclusively read LGBTQ+ marked stories? There ain't enough time in this life to read every good story that fits that bill.

There are too many good stories out there and we do need to choose.

Glowbat (Aloe)

its just nicer because then i can enjoy the story without having to worry that in the middle of it im going to get a rude wake up call from an off colour joke or somethin at my expense

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's true

keii4ii

Sometimes we miss out on stuff that we may have fallen in love with, but that's the name of the game, the game of not having enough time

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Webcomics feel a lot safer than other media in that regard atm

Jupp especially if you're also working on your own stories

Glowbat (Aloe)

it sucks thinking theres a bunch of stories out there that im sure id love if only i had the time or mental fortitude to sift through a bunch of others.

keii4ii

(OTL that reminds me... there is one instance of trope use in an early chapter of HoK that falls into that 'off color joke' category. I don't have any excuses for it, just 'I just thoughtlessly parroted a trope that I saw elsewhere.' I regret it and hope to figure out an elegant way to rewrite that one scene.)

Glowbat (Aloe)

i dont have the energy to be burned so often by stories that seem good and then hit me with random transphobic bs or using slurs as jokes

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, as someone who grew up in a time when no one positively portrayed queer folks in mainstream stories (and there was no internet and living out in the boonies made it impossible to discover underground cultures) I love that now I can seek out tonnes of LGBTQ stories and drown myself in the gay every day.

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

jupp ;;

Glowbat (Aloe)

man if i could give ten year old me printed copy of paranatural and turn to the pages with rj's identity being explained? that kid would have grown up way happier

living in small towns aint great for queer peeps

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Nope it’s not. I was badly repressed until honestly only 3 years ago when I suddenly asked myself why I loved reading about and writing so many gay characters. And then suddenly my whole life made sense.

Glowbat (Aloe)

im so happy for you<3

Glowbat (Aloe)

its a heck of a thing thinking back on things and realizing why you do certain things

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly there were giant clues from when I was still a little kid and I can’t believe it took me so long. XD But I’m digressing from the comic talk, lol.

Glowbat (Aloe)

haha i understand what you mean

i think its why its so important for comics to be inclusive

spare some poor kids the heart ache and confusion

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes! The internet has created such a boom for indie comics and that huge variety of voices has been so so important.

Glowbat (Aloe)

as much as comics are an art, they're extremely powerful as a vehicle for teaching and generally conveying ideas

FeatherNotes

Can i just say how happy i am that y'all are making LGBTQ+ comics that aren't just romance tho? I'm pretty indifferent and on the ace spectrum for sure, so its so refreshing that we can have a queer cast just being cool and not hurt by identities. I wish i had that as a kid

Also no shade on romance but there's def a lot and lgbtq+ isn't just for that genre

So yes yall are 'gay enough' lol

Glowbat (Aloe)

i agree! queer peeps shouldn't be squared off in romance, which unfortunately i think is a result of people's gross misconceptions

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Admittedly, I use my comics as a vehicle to work through my own issues, so there are scenes planned where the characters have to deal with transphobia or homophobia. But I will always counterbalance that with other scenes that validate the characters’ identities.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmhm my story also deals with transphobia and dysphoria bc I'm working through own issues. I don't think that's a bad thing though

generally I think it's pretty ok if the story is not a constant misery train

(even those can be written well, but they are usually not my cup of tea)

Glowbat (Aloe)

i think its perfectly acceptable to use comics as a vehicle for that lee

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeahh tbh

MJ Massey

there's no wrong reason to make comics/create a thing

Glowbat (Aloe)

youre a queer creator and you're working with what you know so why not

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I know focusing on queer suffering has been criticised a lot but I feel there's more nuance to it. Especially if it's a LGBTQ+ person writing about it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. I’m a miserable emo and I write miserable emo stories, but I try to inject some hope into it, because I think that the majority of humans are good and/or want to be good.

Glowbat (Aloe)

theres this comic called dropout that does a wonderful job exploring the grittier truths of being queer

its a fairly short read but its super good

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hmmm, I may look that up

Glowbat (Aloe)

i can dm you the link! no pressure to read it tho

twothirty

gosh, i just want to chime in because i really relate to earlier comments around labelling comics. I'm bi, but i don't wear it on my sleeve, and my own comic has like...1 straight character. I feel like there is an expectation for comics labelled as lgbtq+ and i don't want to disappoint people who are really looking for that content to be directly addressed.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Tbh I feel many people are just happy, if there's queer characters doing cool stuff (at least that's how it's for me).

Glowbat (Aloe)

i label my own comic as lgbtq+ and the plot hardly hinges on that being the central theme

just a bunch a gay scientists and robots in space

...i swear its way more interesting that that lol

man i wish i could get more of my comic out faster so i didnt have to worry about spoiling basic things geeze

twothirty

haha im into it! Ahh, well probably a big part of it is my own insecurities, but what are webcomics for if not... for figuring out your own crap (edited)

keii4ii

I feel that X'D

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

juppp...I get the anxiety tho

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Mess of anxiety solidarity.

Glowbat (Aloe)

oof yeah

also hey while we're at it with the queer biz in here:

aro/ace/bi peeps are all gay enough full stop

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

YES

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

jupp

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As a demi-bi dude I fully endorse that all labels are valid.

And that gatekeeping sucks and helps no one

Glowbat (Aloe)

yeah anyone who makes you feel like you dont belong under the lgbtq+ umbrella isnt doin right by you

and your comics should be allowed to be considered as queer as you want them to be

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Also all gender identities are valid and don’t hinge on having a physical transition. You’re valid as trans whether you change your body or not.

Glowbat (Aloe)

^^^

YES

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

YESS

Glowbat (Aloe)

all our experiences are valid and the comics we make because of those experience are beautiful

Deo101

Oh man I missed a huge convo, but I love y'all and it's wonderful seeing so many kinds of comics out there and seeing people make their own content

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yo, nothing "gross" about romance, and the reason people flock to it is because romance with same-gender couples and/or trans people has been treated as "deviant disorder that needs to be cured and cleaned up, or at least kept far away from polite society" for so long (and still is, in many places)

All queer stories are valid, queer characters don't need to be in a romantic storyline to count, but please let's discuss that without echoing homophobic rhetoric about queer romance being "gross", yeah?(edited)

MJ Massey

I don't think it was meant gross as in queer romance itself being gross, but more in the finding a general distaste for romance tropes and romance as a genre

but I agree, that we should be careful about implying those sorts of things with our work

keii4ii

Romance as a genre is valid too; the consensus was just that there's a lot of it, and other genres are valid too. That every genre is valid

MJ Massey

true, but people might just feel strong distaste for certain genres from a personal point of preference

it's part of what makes the fabric of human existence so fascinating, we all have different opinions, likes, dislikes, viewpoints...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh I love romance stories but the thing that disheartens me is that the queer stories people take most serious are romances

keii4ii

The pigeonholing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Can you elaborate on that Keiiii?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Those are the stories that get repressed and erased the most, is the thing, so it takes more effort to get them produced and shared, and that makes people extra-happy

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t think anyone said romance stories were gross?

Just that it’s not necessarily our jam.

keii4ii

Oh, I meant that's what people are doing when people start exclusively associating a very diverse experience/ group of people with ONE thing, to a point where the people in that group are not allowed to be anything other than That One Thing

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I was reacting to "queer peeps shouldn't be squared off in romance, which unfortunately i think is a result of people's gross misconceptions"

keii4ii

and it's a really unfair, inaccurate restriction

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Ahhhh

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OH okay, thank you for elaborating, Keiiii. I couldn't really associate anything with the term at first!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Misconceptions are the reason queer people have been excluded from most romance for so long

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think in that case it was more about people's misconception of queer identities being inherintly sexual and/or romantic though?

and not about queer romance being gross

DanitheCarutor

Huh, I thought 'gross' in that context was more akin to 'outlandish' or 'exaggerated', but I could be misunderstanding.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I think it means more that a lot of people fetishise queer relationships when there’s only representation in romance.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Associating "queer people being sexual and/or romantic" with "gross" is still hella dicey

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

the misconception is what's gross, not the queer people or their romance?

Glowbat (Aloe)

re: gross misconceptions :Oh! i think i said that Erin- i don't think i did a great job of explaining my thoughts on that. on sites like tapas and webtoons its fairly common for gay couples to be exploited for an audience thats less interested in representation than fetishization(edited)

MJ Massey

yes I think there was some lamenting that it could be difficult to show queer characters without an element of romance to make their identities apparent?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t think they meant gross as in disgusting but gross as in ‘far off the mark’

MJ Massey

because some people wanted to have queer characters but not focus on a romantic plot

@Glowbat (Aloe) I know what you are talking about I think

Deo101

Yeah, though I'd like to add on as someone who is writing LGBT romance, I get lumped in with fetishization content a lot and that is very frustrating for me, too

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

And it does take a lot of digging to find respectful representation in romance instead of stories made by and for straight people that use bad stereotypes to fetishise queer relationships.

Not that all romance by and for straight people does this.

But it’s a problem in the genre

Deo101

I work very hard to portray healthy loving relationships and people lump me in to their hatred of romance in general or categorize my work as bl or discount it for having that. It gets fetishized or dismissed an awful lot and that's very frustrating for me to see happening

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If you want to talk specifically about something you feel is stereotypical or fetishizing, I wouldn't object to that, it's the broad swipes at all romance that become a problem

Glowbat (Aloe)

agreed

queer romance is very important to represent

i dont think anyone here would imply otherwise

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And, hey, sometimes queer writers/readers also enjoy a romance that's unrealistic or trashy or silly or melodramatic, I don't want to dismiss "all romance that wouldn't represent a healthy and respectful relationship IRL" either

Glowbat (Aloe)

very true

Deo101

Yeah, not what I was trying to say.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Idk if anyone was saying that tbh

Glowbat (Aloe)

i think our initial conversation though boiled down to that we were happy to see stories with queer people being allowed to just be people doing things that didnt focus on romance

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm personally very glad that we are getting a wider variety of queer romance now

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

What we were discussing earlier is more that it’s important to portray queer protagonists in all kinds of genres, instead of only romance. Which doesn’t mean romance isn’t also a valid genre.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Sure, and part of my discomfort is that queer characters have already been "allowed" to do non-romantic things in mainstream media for a long time -- it's being "allowed" to have an explicit romance that's new and different

keii4ii

^ I don't know about that. It probably depends on where you are, both IRL and part of the internet?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I never saw a queer character that wasn’t either tragic, a deviant, or the butt of a joke in media until the late ‘O0s(edited)

MJ Massey

both views are valid--it's good to both want explicit queer romance and to also just want to see queer people doing a wide range of things

DanitheCarutor

@Glowbat (Aloe) Yeah, to parrot what you said. I just chalked the convo up to seeing queer characters expand into different genres, and being happy that queer fiction is starting to be known for more than just romance.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There was no positive representation in any genre in the media I had access to for most of my life(edited)

Deo101

It helps with the normalization of stories like that, but I also think it makes homophobes be "more comfortable" with gay stories sometimes in a way that bothers me

I have had someone say that my story is the only bl they can stand so I'm sensitive about this subject though

Cause there's a lot to unpack there

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

The "if there has to be a queer romance, at least make it awful and tragic" trope was absolutely true in my area too

yikes, I can see being sensitive about that

Deo101

Like me writing something that primarily isn't romance and just has a romance b plot is making homophobes and fetishizing people read my work and that's frustrating for me in a way I can't articulate. I'm very happy within the LGBT+ community to have these works be made but among the straight people I know it's uncomfortable when they start saying things like "oh yay finally some gay stuff that isn't romance" kind of thing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that makes sense

Deo101

From other gay people I get it, it makes sense and I'm the same way! Especially with the oversaturation of bl

DanitheCarutor

@Deo101 Gah I got a comment like that before, it was a weird situation because not only was it unnecessary but... TGtaHR isn't even a romance...

Thinking about it, that's actually kinda worrying.

Deo101

But it's important to remember that the LGBT+ community is a bubble and though it's safe to explore all sorts of stories here, it's not safe outside of our bubble

Or, not necessarily safe

Like a homophobe reading a gay story with an unhealthy dynamic could just bolster their bad opinions about gay people even if it's exploring it in a healthy way

I have a hard time explaining what I'm thinking and I really hope this all makes sense

keii4ii

I get you

Glowbat (Aloe)

(i get what youre saying deo <3 )

Deo101

And its not something we can really change but I think it's important to remember with regards to society at large and how our stories are percieved outside the community

Phew lol

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I get what you're saying, although in that case, the homophobe was probably going to think that no matter what, and if it wasn't the story they'd find some other "evidence"

Deo101

Yeah absolutely

And I think it's important to remember that when talking about exploring stories that have unhealthy Dynamics and things other than romance and whatnot. I don't want those things to become safe for cishets to exploit basically

Like "oh great now I don't need to write them kissing so I can access BOTH the LGBT and everyone else!"

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Ah, you mean like "the author says they're gay, so that counts as representation and LGBT people should buy this, even though there's never anything explicitly gay in the story"

right?

Deo101

Yeah

Deo101

Which again within the community I get and it's important to explore things like that for sure

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the important difference is, writers within the community are going to do something to indicate the queer identity, even when it's not "having an on-screen romance"

And that's something that, say, your average JKR doesn't bother doing

Deo101

Again I have a hard time explaining myself and I might be tripping over my words a bit here

Yeah that's true as well

I trust LGBT people to be navigating stories with an inherent nuance

For the most part

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

That, or (I think people were talking about this upthread) we don't advertise a story as "look at all this representation!" while the characters' identities haven't come up in the comic yet

Deo101

Yeah I know I didn't say my story was LGBT til I had the married couple kiss cause I was worried people would think I was gaybaiting

I know I'm not but it feels wrong to me like I'm trying to rally up readers kinda thing...

But also if you know you're planning to do it I feel like you can say it'll be there

I just have anxiety LOL

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

No, I get you. Even if it's definitely going to happen in the future of the comic, it'll disappoint readers if you rally them up for something that isn't there yet

That would happen with anything, not just queer identities

Deo101

Yeah I also don't tag my pages or whatever for disability if a character isn't disabled on the page

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Like if it was "read my comic for cool space battles!" when you had only posted the 5 pages of setup with characters having a chill talk in a field

sssfrs

I think what bothers me about lbgtq focused romance stories is that they’re often centered on how ~scandalous~ the relationship is and how the characters have to overcome personal biases or homophobia/transphobia as the central struggle

Deo101

I don't want the wrong audience. I mean I also could probably slap bl on my cover and I feel like I'd get a lot more readers but they're not the readers I want

sssfrs

Or at least I dont enjoy reading stories like that

Deo101

Yeah that frustrates me too, personally

But some people like seeing that overcoming idk

sssfrs

My comic has at least 2 visible prominent gay relationships but its not about romance at all

I guess thats personal preference(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think a lot of the time you also know what intentions the person behind telling a story like that has? I have a straight aquaintaince writing BL and it's totally clear that she thinks the whole ordeal is kinda cute and endearing when it's pretty...harsh for actual queer people

Deo101

Mines got 5 and it is about romance cause I absolutely love romance and I love love, but I am overly frustrated with romance as a genre. Which is why I write my own

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think that goes back to the "talk about a specific trope that bothers you, don't treat it like the whole genre" thing I was saying

Deo101

Yeah I think there's a lot of nuance to it that cishet people largely don't have

sssfrs

I feel like it makes the romance into a statement about how society is bad and its not interesting or groundbreaking to represent that bigotry in your media without adding something new

Deo101

I'm frustrated with the often unhealthy Dynamics and the frequency with which homophobia and transphobia are shown.

I live in a homophobic household I don't want it in my romance cause it hurts to see

But, I don't think it's bad to tackle those issues it's just hard for me personally

sssfrs

I like pairing up side characters but only 2 pairs are going to have an Arc. so far....

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I...feel for many cishet authors it's also a good excuse to not have the characters get together right away without actually thinking about why they would not for other reasons (like personality based). So there's a lot of "I'm not gay!!!" type of thing

Also totally understandable Deo :C

Deo101

Yeah absolutely.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s also valid, as a queer author, though, to show characters that do have to overcome their ‘gay panic’ when they first realise they’re gay. It’s something a lot of us have gone through, but it’s important to show the comfort you finally feel in yourself when you come out the other end if it.

sssfrs

Why should fiction include all the shitty parts of real life

Deo101

I think straight people see LGBT authors tackle these issues and go "oh so I can too!!!"

And yeah this is why I'm largely drawn to sci-fi and fantasy, I get to entirely remove all the things that hurt me about reality. Dude can just use a cane and everyone is like dope

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Because sometimes fiction helps us process all the shitty parts of real life. Both happy stories that take away shit and gritty stories that acknowledge shit are valid and important

Deo101

Ppl can just be trans and it's fine

I agree they're all important

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(I think I'm just super bitter bc here I've seen cis and straight women get awards for their queer romance stories which just hmm)

Deo101

^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I agree it's a super nuanced topic

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...I feel like you've also gotta make some allowance for bad writing. Like, maybe someone's not getting a lot of nuance in their story because their skills aren't sharp enough to handle it yet.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Agreed, Erin!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And one of the ways they'll get good enough to write better stories is by working out issues through writing the worse stories.

sssfrs

My main character is a butch lesbian gnc completely androgynous person and no one is ever going to say anything nasty to her about it

Deo101

I feel you sssfrs lol(edited)

Deo101

I thirst for gentle, nice LGBT stories. I just crave them

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I feel that. As I build Prismal and decided to include lgbt folks in it, my first thought about it was "would there be any reason for them to be hated in this society? No? Then why would I include that theme?"

Deo101

And yes it's important to delve into the harsher realities and I think it's good to use fiction to explore and work through those themes, definitely, but personally no thx

sssfrs

I like where ppl are just all expected to be pan or bisexual by default

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

heh, I literally have 2 comics and one of them is "real world where characters struggle with realistic prejudices" while the other is "fantasy world with 0% homophobia/transphobia."

Something for everyone!

sssfrs

Nice

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m too goddamn miserable to write such nice stories, lol. But writing gritty stories where my characters go through hell helps me process the stuff I go through in my life. But I love reading those nice stories where we can forget racism and queerphobia exist.(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hehe...I've decided to go into some queerphobia in my next comic only bc I want to...explore historical queer spaces and the kind of space does not make sense in a world that's 100% accepting

Deo101

Yeah it's just all about that nuance babeyy

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeahhh

Deo101

I think that's also why we see so much more LGBT content of all kinds in indie media

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Absolutely

Less gatekeeping, less opportunity for homophobes to shut it down

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

No big boss complaining it’s not ‘marketable’ to be inclusive

Deo101

And I worry that mainstream stuff will be like "ohoho, so that means I can do it too" *stumbles and sets gay people back 10 years in the eyes of the general public *

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

YEEEEEEAH there’s that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the mainstream is going slow enough that that's far from my biggest worry

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But change never happens smoothly

Sometimes it goes up and down before society evolves into a better mindset

Deo101

Well yeah ofc, but even on a smaller scale of bad people reading good works it is kinda happening I feel like

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So there’s gonna be periods of shit before being queer is faithfully represented in the mainstream

Deo101

Yeah for sure

It helps normalize things but it also can do it in an unhealthy way and it's frustrating

As in people going "yes let's include gay romance *it's just bl tropes *"

And things like that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the best way to counter that is by producing & supporting more stories of all kinds -- the more complex and multifaceted a view people get, the better

Deo101

Yeah

From people who are handling those stories well, too ^^^

Which is subjective of course I know that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Also, something nobody's mentioned that I think should come up...a lot of times you don't know who's straight/cis and who's not. Like, if it's Famous Mainstream Author JKR, you can be pretty sure, but with small-scale indie creators, how much can you tell the difference between "straight/cis artist who thinks BL tropes are how all real gay relationships work" versus "gay/bi/trans/etc artist who understands IRL fine, but it's fun and self-indulgent for them to write those tropes"?

Especially since the artist could be actively in the closet. Or could still be on their own journey of self-discovery and not know they aren't straight and/or cis yet. All the more so since indie creators are more likely to be younger than well-established mainstream standards.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t know about you guys, but it’s always BLATANTLY obvious to me by how they’re writing.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

How did you confirm it? Did you ask them?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Call it intuition

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I don't think it's always confirmable tho :C

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Granted, sometimes a person writes with enough nuance that I can tell they're queer, but how do you tell a straight writer from an awkward/inexperienced/clunky queer writer?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I know a lot of authors thinking they were cishet and later on realizing they were not

and some of them wrote a lot of "yikes"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There’s writing patterns and use of tropes that signal whether the person is actually respectful if the queer community or not

Deo101

Also just cause you're working through things doesn't mean it's a healthy exploration that is good for the community at large

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Even if they’re queer and self-indulging, there’s a lot of tells both in the comics and in their commentary

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh I think some tropes are fair to criticise no matter if the author is queer or not but there are also queer authors writing disrespectful tropes

it's not sth that I see a lot, but I've seen it

Deo101

^ yeah this

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

All questions of their writing aside, there are definitely queer people who don't respect the community IRL, either...

Deo101

Like it's not good to write glorifying rape fic of pedophilia no matter who you are or how it's helping you work through things. I mean you can write it but then to share it is something else entirely

Not saying those are common things but they're pretty very much "bad" things

And actually glorifying rape is something I do see much more than I would have expected

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

And that’s problematic, too. When you’re part of a community but not respectful of it, that’s just as bad as a straight person being homophobic. Sometimes the worst homophobia cones from within the community, but that doesn’t make it okay or healthy.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If you share a dark story behind accurate warnings and labels, then it can reach other people who are working through something by reading it, and be avoided by people who don't.

Deo101

Yeah there's a lot of lateral agression within the community

Okay but glorification of it isn't a healthy way to work through those things it's not a dark story

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm not saying homophobia from within the community is okay or healthy, I'm just saying it doesn't have to indicate that the person is straight/cis.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have a lot of dark themes in my comics. There is rape, but it is never shown on panel and never never glorified. I think it’s a subject that’s important to talk about, but I find it extremely disturbing how much it’s romanticised in fiction.

Deo101

^^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah...

DanitheCarutor

Huh, this convo reminds me of an article a friend sent me from someone's Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/posts/25994657 It talks about creation policing, and problematic fiction. You all proooobably won't agree with it given the direction of discussion (which all points of view are totally valid), but this whole subject is super interesting.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

All right, true, you can’t always know if an author is queer or not. I should have been more specific in whether an author has a healthy view of the LGBTQ community or not.

Deo101

So you might not be able to tell if someone is gay by their writing, but there are certain trends that gay people do not generally fall into that MOSTLY indicate someone is straight, though there's no way to know for sure.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

THAT is always obvious to me.

Deo101

And like def there are bi women who fetishize gay men, and there is transphobia and biohobia and everything within the community

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

If they’re being homophobic or just don’t ‘understand’ the queer community, I mean

Deo101

Etc etc, so even if you can't tell whether a harmful representation is written by someone who is LGBT it's a harmful representation regardless

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

^^^^This

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah. I'm always very hesistant on how to address things like this

Deo101

Me too esp since I have such a hard time saying what I mean

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm not saying it's impossible to write harmful representation, but "this is harmful!" gets used as a cudgel against any representation, so often that I'm wary of talking about it as a vaguely-defined blanket category.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s hard to articulate things clearly when in fast-paced chats like this

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah, haha

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

At least it's good for leveling people up, huh?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

eifhiuef pfft

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Lol. ‘You levelled up talking about homophobia!’

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(I feel we're all respectful and try to explain ourselves and give others the chance to do so too)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

At least it's good for something??

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(so that's good haha)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes. Talks like this are super important to help see each others views on tricky subjects

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, I feel like we're making good-faith attempts to understand each other, which...is not something you always get in internet discussions

To put it very very mildly

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

We all have our own stories and unique perspectives, and that’s important to share both in the fiction we write and in discussions with each other

DanitheCarutor

@Phin (Heirs of the Veil) The subject is pretty sticky. On one hand artists should be allowed to create whatever they like, on the other if that work can perpetuate harm for a certain community should it be allowed? There is a lot of this going around right now where people want sanitization in media, and what works of art are and are not allowed to exist. Not saying it's bad, but it is fascinating. I'm not fully getting into the convo because I'm honestly super neutral.

kayotics

I’m definitely watching the convo play out, it’s interesting to see a chat like this develop

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

yeah I'm taking notes this is not my area of expertise, and it's all good stuff to keep in mind

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm okay discussing & criticizing specific examples (which is probably why I keep bringing up Dumbledore...), but I don't like being critical of broad categories, because they can be so ambiguous & easily misused.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

@DanitheCarutor I think it is very hard to differentiate between people who want difficult subjects to be explored (which is valid) and people who don't want to be called out for certain kinks for example and a lot of the times stuff like "purity policing" gets used to shut legit criticism up. On the other hand there are a lot of examples of callout culture gone wild and honestly ??? Idk anymore.

Deo101

Its very frustrating

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

But I'm also at a point where I'm getting super tired of constant discourse so

Deo101

Yeah I've literally had to block words like "ace" cause it's just so often discourse from either side and I'm just so tired of it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Plus there’s always going to be stories that help one person work through things but that are very toxic and upsetting to someone else. Just like there’s people who are toxic to one person and important to someone else.(edited)

Deo101

I've also blocked LGBT and "feminism" kinda things

I JUST see cats and memes now thank you

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Lee: absolutely, which is why accurate labels are important

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Eyyyy, it's my turn!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes

kayotics

I think it’s important to curate your online experience, and sometimes NOT curating your experience leads to purity policing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

HMM

kayotics

But yes tagging is really important!!!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think there is the creation of a lot of anxiety in what and what you can't tell in stories

Deo101

Tags are super important but also when someone doesn't think or realize they're doing something harmful they might not tag it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Warning labels all around are always a good idea

Deo101

Like if someone is being a homophobe just cause etheyre homophobic they're not gonna tag that

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

True

Deo101

Why tag it's glorifying abuse if they think it's hot or reality and don't realize that's bad

Etc etc

kayotics

There’s definitely a lot of creator anxiety lately, I’ve had a lot of friends come to me with anxieties about not wanting to start a project they love because they’re afraid of who might attack them online

Deo101

^^^ I've been scared about this

kayotics

Me too, honestly

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Same honestly

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There’s always the issue if ‘should harmful ideas be given a platform’ vs ‘stifling voices you just don’t want to hear’ it’s a fine line.

Deo101

I once got all in a tizzy cause I was like "oh my god my planet of women is asking a man for help"

Yeah cause some free speech silences other's

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And sometimes you get people thinking "if I label this with a warning that it contains Bad Content, the internet police will come after me," so they don't use warnings for that reason, and then it's just bad times all around

Deo101

Yeah.

And also there are things no one thinks to warn about, like some very specific triggers

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah...

Deo101

Its just all around a very difficult to navigate space

DanitheCarutor

@Phin (Heirs of the Veil) Right? People do that with anything, if it's not the "purity police" excuse it's "my style", or "I'm friends with -insert minority here-!" I don't bother with the arguments anymore since I've been pushed into them enough, I'm more into seeing opinion on general art policing, or what is and isn't allowed to exist in art. Sorry, I'm being slow at typing again.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Heck, if we're talking about actual psychological triggers, most of them are going to be super-specific

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I have a trigger for fungal growth on bodies now bc I have 3 people who either have probs with plants growiing on bodies OR funghi lol

Deo101

Ya I have a "someone watching someone else sleep" trigger which people use a surprising amount

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...wait, Phin, now you have a trigger, or now you use a warning for it?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

@DanitheCarutor srsly don't worry about it, haha. It's a nuanced topic and I think generalizing is pretty bad when it comes to what you can and can't portray

I use a warning for it, sorry Erin, wasn't clear

I had multiple people approach me so I warn in update posts and should probs also do it on the website

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

no worries, just wanted to be sure

kayotics

I do have an extreme phobia of needles and you’d be surprised how many news sites use active needle shots for vaccination stories

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

GOD I KNOW

I am not afraid of them but like once they are near skin

I don't wanna see...these shots

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have a deathly phobia of vomiting and there are NEVER warning labels for it.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah I think most people don't regard it and sometimes it's hard to get everything...

a friend of mine, Eli, creates a very gory comic and they put all their warnings on their update post images

and I kinda wanna try to be similarly mindful?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

(I’m okay if it’s in a comic and off-panel or the gross part is not shown but the sound and sight are crippling for me and shows and movies just SHOW it all the time)

kayotics

That’s true. Not a vomit fan.

DanitheCarutor

Ah I've thought about using page by page TWs, and I tried it out with one page, but with the amount of triggering thing in my comic I decided on a general warning. (since almost every page would get a warning) A few of my readers also said they preferred not to see them due to possible spoilers.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmm...I have a list of possible triggers in my about section

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I probably should start doing that bc my comics get very bloody

kayotics

I know I’ll have a scene eventually that I’ll want to have a warning on, but I’m not sure how to warn for it without spoiling?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I installed a spoilertext plugin on one of my comics for that! Now I can put specific warnings at the front of a storyline, and readers who don't have triggers & don't want spoilers can leave them hidden.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OHH that's a cool idea

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, mine is like a general pop-up that you have to click on to proceed to the comic.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m going to have to look at that plugin. Potential spoilers are the only reason I don’t have really detailed warnings on my comics

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Here's the one I use: https://wordpress.org/plugins/inline-spoilers/

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah I'll look into it too. It seems super useful.

Heck thanks Erin!

DanitheCarutor

I don't know how you could make a warning without spoilers, @kayotics! I mean, you might have to if you want to do a page specific one.(edited)

Sorry, my cat sent the message for me.

kayotics

I was thinking a page specific one for the upcoming scene.

So I’m glad that doesn’t seem weird

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'd say super-general warnings are mostly not spoilers. A movie will say "contains graphic violence", and that doesn't tell you who's being violent, or why, or how it's resolved.

DanitheCarutor

^^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah, I think that's not a spoiler, especially if the comic was already violent

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. I have warnings for things like ‘graphic violence, blood and gore, nudity, etc. But some chapters or pages probably warrant more detailed TWs.

Deo101

Yeah I'm gonna put in my a/n for a few updates before like "hey there are some spooky scenes comin' up!'

kayotics

I wouldn’t say my comic is already violent, so it’s more applicable for this one scene

Deo101

And yeah things like "watching someone sleep" is gonna be at least somewhat of a spoiler...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hmhm

DanitheCarutor

@kayotics I think it really just depends on the person too. Some readers like page by page TWs, and don't see them as spoilers, others are the opposite. Your readers might appreciate a warning more than mine since your comic isn't overall super graphic.(edited)

Gah I can not type today!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I put "this will get bloody" before some of the vampire storylines, not spoiler-cut -- because it's not a given, but shouldn't exactly be a surprise, either.

Deo101

I also do not mind spoilers whatsoever and I WILL spoil to anyone who asks as I've said many times, but I know not everyone is like me and spoilers are a big deal to many people

"i don't mind spoilers" i love them and they make me enjoy things more for many reasons

DanitheCarutor

Ah same! I'd love to just spill everything!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(Deo high five bc same)

Deo101

My people

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh spoilers got me interested in many comics and I actively spoil myself

like getting into new comics and reading the updates before jumping to the beginning haha

kayotics

I’m very much the opposite

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I don't want to spoil anything, I want to keep people guessing! But sometimes you gotta.

Deo101

Yes. I get incredibly stressed about whether or not things will work out and spoilers relieve that. Even if it doesn't work out like at least I know

I get so so sooo stressed about it

kayotics

Whenever people tell me spoilers I actively like content less

DanitheCarutor

I don't mind them myself. My mom absolutely hates them, and used to make me spoil every movie if I saw it before her, so I'm pretty alright with it.

Deo101

Yeah ik many people are that way

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah I also think that's fair

DanitheCarutor

Also spoilers don't affect me either since it's not the content that means anything, but how it's used. Imo

kayotics

Usually for me it’s like. “Ok you spoiled a major character death/reveal, that’s not fun for me anymore”

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OH yeah Kay! Tbh

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If there's a big twist, I want to be unspoiled the first time I watch/read/etc the thing. If it's handled well, I can always rewatch it again with the knowledge.

kayotics

Because then I don’t get to experience that anymore

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

that's sth that can also ruin a story for me

kinda didn't get into the current season of CritRoll bc of such a spoiler

with comics it's kinda like...I see them on twitter, read along a few updates and then jump to the beginning so there I don't mind spoilers at all

it's more scoping out if the story's for me

Deo101

Oh man I sometimes only get into things because of spoilers LOL I know I'm weird with this but genuinely I love spoilers so much they make me comfortable with what I'm watching. I love rewatching things cause I know how it goes down and I'm not stressed by it

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I sometimes have troubles to deal with...raw emotions towards media so spoilers help me with that too

like preparing myself for it to hurt

(not always tho)

Deo101

Right yeah for sure

Even if I know it won't work out I KNOW and I don't put energy into getting my hopes up

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I hate spoilers, personally. I love going into stories completely blind or with just the bare-bones ‘genre, overall theme’ because I LOVE being shocked and surprised and have plot-twists thrown at me, so that’s what I do with my own comics(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's also fair. Right now my brain's not in the mood for that so I gotta play it save hehe

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I still don't like saying "here's what the Beings are" in ads or sales pitches for BICP, even though the page where it was revealed is several years old by now

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But everyone likes different things so there’s nothing wrong with giving spoilers for your own stories if people want them(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah it depends honestly and that's pretty okay.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Everyone’s different and everyone’s valid

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I don't spoil my own story, except with artworks and mostly it's without context or cryptic enough that it's not...a real spoiler

yeah!

in that regard, it's just a huge matter of taste

twothirty

i also jump into webcomics, read them backgrounds for a bit then realized im actually into it and read it properly haha

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hahaha yes

If I get invested without context I know it's good lol

Deo101

I don't spoil on public platforms cause I know people don't wanna necessarily see that (unless it's in an ama but I try to avoid spoilers still) but in private? I'll spill whatever tf u want like

I have and I will again!!!! Lmao

I know no one is gonna write it like me and also it's p linear so the only spoilers people really ask are Character things not plot things, anyways

So I'm not worried about theft im not doing anything super wild or original lol

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

all my favorite panels I've done are all the most spoilery ones, so... whether I share them or not, I lose

Deo101

Aw man

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

SAME

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

nooo

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

but it makes sense! I put all my effort into those moments where the story twists and turns

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Some of my fave panels or pages are when big reveals or plot twists happened

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

and it shows

so meh, I'll live

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So I can’t share them to people who haven’t read my comic yet XD

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

luckily they don't make a ton of sense out of context, but... as soon as people start reading they might be like OHHH I know what's coming now

but it got them reading so shrug

I guess all mileage varies

Deo101

I feel like even the way I talk about my comic spoils it LMAO whoops

I'm made out of spoilers I can t hold them all in very clumsy

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

haha

I feel the same a lot

(But I also just wanna scream 24/7 about my stories whoopsie)

Deo101

I once had readers asking me to sum up a chapter caus ethey were confused and I just waited til someone else did it cause I was worried I'd spoil Something in trying to sun it up

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Linear stories are good too, though! Just reading a satisfying, well-written story is great; there doesn’t really NEED to be twist and turns for it to be food.

Deo101

Who doesn't wanna scream all the time and their stories hahahahha

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

GOOD

NOT FOOD

GAH

Deo101

Millennium is yummy yummy yum

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...for the in-universe version of spoilers, I just had a moment of "hang on, this scene could've been way more dramatic if this one character hadn't already been given a certain reveal last chapter"

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

good food, agreed

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Normally I get away with not having a long buffer prepped ahead of time, but for once I wish I could still change this

Nutty (Court of Roses)

i spoil a lot about my characters more than i do the plot lol

i mean except their backstories sometimes

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Oh :C sometimes it's like this, Erin. Reasons buffers are good, but when do you have the time....

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I've tried putting this one on hiatus to prep a buffer, but it turns out I need the deadlines and the regular feedback to push me through making the pages...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

oh I see. Understandable though...the only time I create real buffer is when I finish a book for print and have a deadline there.

(I wanna try to actually...get better though, since I wanna start a second comic project)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I mean, sometimes if there's a process that works for you, you gotta just go with it and not waste energy fighting it. Even if it's not the Best or Most Professional way.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's true. It's just frustrating when you compare the work you get done in these phases vs. every other time.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Clearly the solution is to split it up into smaller books, so you have more print deadlines!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

haha, that might be!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I need buffers or I get super stressed. Unfortunately I also find them difficult to keep up.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Buffers are very hard to keep up. I'm running out of mine next week, whoops

But I've already started working on new pages

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I have...a half-finished, past-deadline page open in another window right now, lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I haven’t been able to draw for about a month, so one comic’s buffer is getting low and the other’s going to either miss this week or be late.

And I’m stressing about it. -_-

sssfrs

I’m so excited for my story to progress. I’m tempted to talk about it but when I am I think that nothing I say casually will be as impactful as just letting the story actually play out

Desnik

I deal with lack of engagement by throwing my ideas (or myself) at people. I learned that keeping secret twists as spoilers was inhibiting my growth as a writer, so instead I talk through my plots with my writing group and I often walk away with much better ideas to write

We're a kidlit/MG/YA group and I'm writing in a similar fashion, so we usually don't have to warn each other about anything we're writing, which is its own kind of freedom

if I can get the content to be good enough, and land in front of someone who'll help me take it further, then the engagement will follow

keii4ii

(This the right place?)

Deo101

Speaking of a lack of engagement, i feel like my engagement rates are incredibly low. I get a good bit, i get comments on every page and im very happy with that, but it's odd that i dont get more given my amount of readers and I wonder if some comics just aren't the kind of story people feel a need to say anything about, or what?

I think so?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My engagement rates are... almost nonexistent.

keii4ii

I TOTALLY GET THAT DOUBT

When my anxiety is bad, it gets... really bad. "Maybe my story isn't worth commenting/ there is nothing to talk about it." I know that's just anxiety, so I try my best to not listen to that voice.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Although I think my audience is just not there? My page-views are pretty low, too, so maybe I just don’t have enough readers to comment (outside of you awesome SF perps)

PEEPS NOT PERPS

MY GOD THIS PHONE

keii4ii

Yeah, my views are fairly low too, considering the sub count I have on platforms

Come on, phone. We're not criminals. (Probably. )

Deo101

Yeah, its just weird when i have like. 1000 readers on tapas and get 0 comments i guess? I do kinda feel like my comic is very.... Its very linear its character driven and people can onky say "aw cute ^^" so much so idk what they would say

Like its legit .1%

keii4ii

hides the bloody knife

Deo101

ITS IN THE FLOWER POT!!!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I was getting about 1k daily views right after I joined SF but now it’s back down to about 100 a day, so shrugs

keii4ii

Views though, it's natural they spike like that even if you retain 100% of the people who checked out your comic!

because typically, people only go through the old pages once

so they give you more views upon first visit

Deo101

^^^

keii4ii

But I 100% understand the worry of "why do people check out my comic and decide not to read it... is there something wrong with my work"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

On webtoons I think I have relatively good engagement for Eryl considering my low sub number. I have about 350-some subs and get an average of 1-2 unique comments per page, though that number goes up when a character dies. (edited)

That’s true! They do get kinda ‘falsely’ inflated when people binge-read archives

Deo101

Most comments i ever got is when I said "tell me your pet names"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Lmao, I should try that

Deo101

And then outside of that when luzio and sage do something cute is the most I get like, organically just frim my content

Amas are second most comments which are again, me starting the discussion

Maybe alk my authors comments should be like "tell me about your fave color" that'll inflate my stats

keii4ii

One person told me they don't comment because everything seems so obvious, and they don't wanna be captain obvious. Which I can respect. But I don't think everything is that obvious if the most common comment I get is "I'm lost"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hmmmm

Deo101

Hahahahhahahahah

Like "NO PLEASE SHARE THESE THINGS"

keii4ii

IKR

Deo101

Help everyone else out!!!

keii4ii

There is a term in Korean comment section culture

"Konan" (from Detective Konan)

It's a term for commenters who explain obtuse stuff for other readers

Sometimes you'll even see comments like "Hurry up, Konans! I'm too tired to think! Spoonfeed me what happened in this update!"

Deo101

Me reading every comic ever

keii4ii

I NEED A KONAN IN MY COMMENT SECTION

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly I wish western readers did that, but they either get attacked for being ‘Captain Obvious’ or people scream SPOILER!!!! at them

Deo101

I really wish people woukd expkain for me too because then i know some people get it, but ALSO i dont want to explain things i didn't show, accidentally.

snuffysam

one thing i've found that helps with engagement is making sure to include something on the page for people to talk about, no matter how relevant it is. like a while back i had a (in my opinion) fairly boring scene where it's basically "where do we gotta go" "i'm not telling" "please" "ok you gotta go here" so to give readers something to talk about i had one of the characters take a hotdog out of a pokeball and eat it.

keii4ii

There was also this incredibly, incredibly obtuse comic. It had a fascinating hook but then became almost impossible to follow. You'd see comments like "so this is the Forbidden Realm that even Konans cannot enter."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hahaha

Deo101

I try to make every page have something, i usually have 3 goals i want a page to accomplish but it's not very... Fun i guess? Its just kibda like "yes this happened"

keii4ii

It's also kinda sad when you DO put something important to you, and nobody says anything (or worse, says "so when is it gonna get interesting???")

Deo101

Yeah...

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So once I spun this theory on a comic by picking it up from context clues. And I was like ‘Hey guys, what if X character is the dragon???’ and everyone was like ‘WELL DUH IT’S IN THE HOVER TEXT.’ I read comics on mobile where hover text doesn’t always work, and after getting sneered at for something ‘everyone knew already’ I was put off of ever being a Konan type again.

Deo101

:(

I never read the hover text unless its by accident I just dont think t

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. And it wasn’t obvious from reading without the hover text so I was really proud of myself for figuring it out. But it just goes to show how rude commenters can scare away well-intentioned ones.(edited)

keii4ii

aaaugh D:

snuffysam

tbh i'm not sure why an author would put something important in the hover text where mobile readers can't see it. or tbh in blogs, side stories, etc. if it's important to understanding the main story, it should be in the comic.

Deo101

Yeah that's what im thinking... Hover text should be for puns

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It was revealed later that chapter in the main comic, but apparently it wasn’t a ‘secret’ like I thought it was.

keii4ii

Bleeeh, sorry that happened to you. >_< This is why we can't have nice things

Where is the nearest Konans R Us, I want to order one for each of our comics.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah... I’m very socially anxious / awkward so I’ve been scared away from quite a few comment sections. I still read the comics and buy them if they go to print, but a negative commenting experience usually discourages me from ever participating in the discussion.

keii4ii

100% understandable

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Which is why I feel it’s super important for the creators to moderate their comments (or hire a good moderator if they don’t have the time). A lot of comment sections get toxic if the author is lax about fostering a positive discussion environment.

Deo101

That makes me feel much better about the times ive asked people to cut Something out or deleted comments.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I appreciate that effort very much.

Deo101

I worry that its "disengenuous" or something and if someone has a negative opinion I don't want to be like "nope you're ONLY allowed to be nice to me!!!" But it's not good, i don't think, to let people feel safe being mean In my comments.

keii4ii

Yeah, there is being critical, and there is being mean

Deo101

So I rarely do it but I have and I don't feel any guilt over the times i have

Right

keii4ii

Sometimes a comment can tread the fine line between the two and it's really annoying that it's not Obviously, Blatantly Mean

Deo101

Yeah hahahahahhaha

keii4ii

But I try to remember that I too have walked that line unintentionally and obliviously, back when I was younger

Deo101

Right. I have too

I was like "oh man I am so smart and im about ti IMPART MY KNOWLEDGE ON YOU!!!" *Is a jerk *

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

That one comic I was talking about earlier: the author had a hard time keeping up with moderating and eventually took comments off the main site. It was 100% not her fault and she was herself getting emotionally distressed from the amount of negativity in the comments. Especially since the comic itself is really thoughtful and has a lot of messages of acceptance.

Deo101

:(

keii4ii

>_<

Deo101

Uhh but yeah! Does .1% feel like about what y'all get as far as comments:readers goes?

.1-.2

I feel like i have no actual gague for this lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It varies from comic to comic (for no quantifiable reason, usually) but that is about right. 99% of readers are lurkers.

Deo101

Dope, I was worried I had like super low numbers when talking with some people and it got me worried about my content

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Plus subs don’t necessarily translate to active readers. A lot of people just never clean out their library after they stop reading something / subbed it to read later and never got around to it or left the site entirely.

Deo101

But I've also just got a lot of anxiety about what im producing and how it's percieved in general

Yeah ik

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I can see people binging my archives from my stats but maybe 1 in 100 or less leaves any comments.

snuffysam

on average, each subscriber to my comic has posted about 45 comments total (which is like 0.07 comments per subscriber per page) if someone clicks on a page (subscriber or not), there is a 0.5% chance of that person leaving a comment.

Deo101

See for me its like. 1 in 1000 leaves a comment...

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

(It’s okay I get anxiety over it, too)

Deo101

Yeah i was gonna say uhhh whats it called

Shoot i lost mt train of thought.

Right. I feel like the longer a comic goes on tbe less frequently people engage

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, I’ve noticed that in my comics, too.

Deo101

Like less readers will have made it to the end, more will be inactive, etc

snuffysam

i've found that my active commenters take a jump in early march (i.e. right after the comic's anniversary), and any time a book ends (since, i guess people like seeing how all the stuff that's happened in the book culminates)

Deo101

Oh that's an interesting note

snuffysam

i suppose that's some other advice on increasing engagement - give a reason for even caught-up readers to leave comments. one thing i've been doing is redrawing old pages and releasing the redraws on anniversaries, which gives reason for people to re-read.

and for end of book stuff, i suppose people are more willing to predict how something is going to end when it's close to ending

Deo101

Hmmmm

I'm taking notes

twothirty

seeking validation through comments is my downfall, because i just dont seem to write a comic that has the type of readership who is into that. What helped was just looking at google analytics and being like "oh right, of course people read this, its clearly here in this data" haha.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

twothirty, same. It's kinda hard to get out of that mindset.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Raises hand I need constant reader validation and get depressed easily when there isn’t. It’s not healthy, but it’s really hard to break out of that mindset.

Deo101

Im not seeking validation through comments, but when i have thousands of readers and get only like 5 it does make me look twice and start wondering if there's something I'm doing wrong.

And yeah it's hard to break out of the mindset

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Me constantly atm haha

Deo101

Especially if you've bee. Hurt in the past and you feel like people secretly hate your work because... In the oast they have

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I wonder if it's actually...a change in how people interact with media nowadays?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oh yeah, definitely, Deo. I got so much negative feedback when I first started posting webcomics and it still sticks with me today.

Deo101

Yeah I've been lucky where people have been mostly nice to me or otherwise just indifferent which makes it so I don't have a super negative experience that my anxieties latch onto

And its STILL hard

Because words of affirmation is my love language lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Partly I think it was because I was creating a lot of gender-nonconforming characters in an era when that wasn’t well-accepted in Western comics (reminder that I was surrounded by a veeeery conservative environment at the time), and partly because my skills were just not what they are now. There were a lot of nasty comments from both strangers and people I knew, and it was really tough to work through. I think if I hadn’t had the Tomgeeks forum to hang out in, I probably would have given up.

(For you young’uns, Tomgeeks was a webcomic list site and we had a really tight group in the forums. A lot of that old crowd are now in Spider Forest).

Kabocha

(Sorry, saw the tomgeeks mention! I remember aspiring to be in that group one day, but I was a lil' too much of a noob back in the day.) A lot of media is kind of... Sometimes you need to put a call to action to be like, "HEY LEAVE A COMMENT!" or something - else, they forget in a lot of cases, but ofc that's no guarantee.

keii4ii

Re: people being less willing to engage the longer a comic has been going on, that is definitely a thing

I think it's called archive burn or something

and I feel it too sometimes, as a reader. I feel like I'm not "allowed" to start reading a comic unless I can find a big enough chunk of free time to finish the archive in one session

It's 100% irrational but... it is a thing

I've found that I don't experience it IRL, with physical books. The end of each volume is a really good stopping place

snuffysam

then i suppose a problem is that webcomics don't really have stopping points you can physically see like physical books like when you're reading a book series, you know where one book ends, but when you read a comic you don't really unless you check how many pages each chapter has

and even then it's hard to keep that in mind when it isn't physical

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I definitely understand that feel. It's kept me from doing a lot of the book club comics because I'm like "I got ten pages in, but that's not enough to comment" T_T

snuffysam

maybe someone could program a widget for comic sites that works similarly to the page indicators in ebooks. like "you're 40% of the way through the chapter, and at your current reading speed you have 10 minutes left"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Comic Rocket!

mariah (rainy day dreams)

Does Archive Binge also have a feature like that?

I feel like they might... I don't use those kind of readers so I'm not super familiar with them.

snuffysam

archive binge lists what page you're on and how many pages the comic has, but there's no reading speed thing no

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don't know. I'm technically on Archive binge, but didn't get any subs there so I didn't look into it past creating my listing. I don't use those services myself because I like a nice long archive to work through, but I know that comic Rocket shows you how much of an archive you've read.

snuffysam

also, the thing i'm talking about would be for chapters as well as the whole comic. because if there is a big archive, people like to know how long they have before a good stopping point

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I'm on Archive Binge. I don't think I have any subs either but definitely get traffic regularly as if I did. How even does internet work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

snuffysam

i guess recently updated?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I usually check out the archive page of a comic to get a good idea of chapter length, myself. So I know if I'm in for 10 pages chapters or 100 page chapters. Plus, idk, I have no problem stopping anywhere and picking it up again later, but I may be a pretty atypical reader.

Lmao, I have no idea how the internet works. I was one of the first people to list on Archive Binge and I have never gotten a single click from it. I get a steady number from Comic Rocket, though.

keii4ii

I wonder if it'd be worth experimenting with chapter numbers? Like, re-number existing chapters like "Season 2, chapter 2 of 15" instead of "chapter 20" ?

Deo101

^ thats a good idea

seeing "chapter 20" makes me as a reader go like, oh god, theres so many,,

snuffysam

^ that's one of the major reasons i label things "book X chapter Y" instead of just counting up chapters forever though adding "out of" is an interesting addition...

keii4ii

I'm nearing the end of season/ book/ whatever 2. I should give this a try

Cronaj

Lol, my books are going to be 3 chapters long each, so I don't think it would make much sense for me XD

keii4ii

Yeah, my chapters are short but numerous, so this might have a different effect than comics with longer but fewer chapters

Deo101

I'd be afraid of saying "out of" cause... well, i dont know how many heheh...

it all gets wacky when it comes time to actually make the thing

snuffysam

i mean, could add 'em retroactively as each "season" finishes

Deo101

oh thats true!

keii4ii

I would probably do "Chapter x out of [REDACTED]" (not that but something similar) when I start posting book 3

Cronaj

Yeah, my chapters are around 35-50 pages, so they're pretty long'

snuffysam

listing how many chapters are in book 3 would kinda spoil a twist lol, so i'll probably only do it retroactively

same lol

and some are 80 pages

book 3's going to have one 120 page chapter which is wild

Cronaj

I was thinking about printing 4-5 chapter books, make it more like a manga-length

keii4ii

You know, some comics (Korean comics do this a lot) do like... Chapter 10: Happy Day, followed by Chapter 11: Happy Day (2), followed by Chapter 12: Happy Day (3)

Cronaj

but full color printing is expensive

keii4ii

Dividing what might have been a single chapter into digestible chunks

snuffysam

i've split "arcs" into multiple chapters before, but unfortunately there aren't really any solid split areas in the chapter in question

Cronaj

and I doubt anybody wants to shell out $25+ on a 200 page comic

This is of course, a consideration for the future, as I don't even have the first chapter finished yet, but ya know

Come next year, I'll have some big decisions to make

@keii4ii Is that a webtoon thing? I've noticed that webtoons have shortish chapters

snuffysam

webtoons an entire chapter is posted at once

keii4ii

It's a Korean thing, which means Webtoons gets some of it

Cronaj

I mean, technically I post my comic in scrolling format, so I consider it a webtoon, but it's definitely drawn for print

@snuffysam, I mean the length of the chapters. The chapters (or episodes) are usually somewhere between 50-100 panels long, which is anywhere between 10-20 pages of a traditional comic

keii4ii

(Tangent, but as a Korean speaker I'm very weirded out by the word "webtoon" in English contexts. Over there every webcomic regardless of format is called a webtoon; I guess it's like anime/manga in Japanese? That in Japan, every animated show is anime, and every cartoon thingie is manga?)

Cronaj

Yeah, that makes sense

In the english speaking world, originally there were comics and webcomics, with little difference between except that one was posted online

but when Korean webtoons entered the English-speaking market, the naming conventions changed

The major difference being the prevalence of scrolling-format webtoons, which made people think that the difference between webtoons and webcomics is the format

but really, it's just a naming thing

You can call a comic a manga, and people expect a black and white comic in a specific style, but really, it's just a comic in Japanese

keii4ii

Yeah

Deo101

I usually just say "scroll style comic" or "page format comic" because im putting pages up on webtoons so it feels... weird to me

keii4ii

That too

IT'S A PICTURE STORY THINGIE WITH SPEECH BALLOONS

Deo101

hahahaha

Cronaj

In the end we are all just children XD

kayotics

this is really late, but i've been getting a lot more comments on my main site lately and I have no idea what I did to encourage that.

Deo101

people caught on

kayotics

That's probably all it is, but it's really surprising that my main site is the one getting more comments, since I wouldn't say it's necessarily a well built comment system? It's the native CMS comment system, and I require the first comment to be moderated

keii4ii

Does this mean I can claim I started reading Ingress before it got famous 8)

kayotics

yes

BUT, I'd say that the estimation of 1% of readers (or whatever the number was) is still accurate.

Deo101

.1% ish

kayotics

I have the most eyes on my comic over on Tapas, and while I do get a handful of comments there, it still equates to less than 1% of the total people subscribed. I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for that (like subscribers who aren't regular readers, people who quit the app, etc), but even the ratio of views to comments is pretty low.

Deo101

yeah I've been noticing that too

I have the most eyes on webtoons but I still have like. a good chunk on tapas and I think those are just more... casual sites

kayotics

yeah absolutely

Deo101

like on comicFury I have way higher engagement rates and i think that's pretty typical cause most of that audience there is also creators

kayotics

I'm sure there's some people who are pretty dedicated on Tapas, but I'd guess that there's more dedicated readers on my self-hosted site, just because they have to specifically seek out the content.

Deo101

^that makes a lot of sense to me

I know a lot of people who follow me on tapas are following 100+ other comics

and i know for SURE I wouldnt be able to take the time/effort to comment on like 10+ comics a day, assuming theyre even keeping up with all thsoe

wow yeah I just checked my list this person has over 6,000 comics theyre subscribed to, and a few have over 500

just on the first page of my readers(edited)

sooooo yeah it makes sense why engagement would be low if people are regularly reading that mant...

keii4ii

I actually rambled about this on twitter recently!

Deo101

and also makes me feel a little bit less bad when people are confused hahahahaha

keii4ii

How I thought I'd get a very small readership who are into what I'm making, but I ended up getting that very small readership PLUS a huge number of people who are just casually reading it

That first expectation was mostly based on my experience with my previous webcomic, but things were different back then. Big platforms weren't a thing, so casual readers were less common.

Deo101

yeah that's really neat

since I've only been making millennium for like... a little over 2 years and it's my first comic, I kinda just started with like 5 mirrors and was like "alright well, lets see how this goes I guess"

I had only ever read one webcomic before i literally have no idea how or why i got so convinced into making a comic

but since I was like 12 years old I was like "hm... I am going to make a comic i think." I just never did any research or tried til recently

or read any. I dont know how this happened

keii4ii

Casual readers vastly outnumbering the dedicated ones used to make me feel like I was doing something wrong, but I think that's just how the times are.

Deo101

Yeah :/ it's hard NOT to notice and feel like you're doing something wrong though.

when its like "okay i have 7,000 subs and got 5 comments" it's like ??? what am i doing WRONG

even though... its nothing wrong

it just be that way

hard to match those two ideas up though

almost went to continue this thought in an entirely different channel.

I think there is also something to be said for people not wanting to repeat a comment

like "oh someone already said what I thought so I'll just give it a thumbs up"

keii4ii

That's what upvoting is for!!!

Deo101

yup!

keii4ii

though, tfw highest voted comments are like "I have no idea wtf is going on lol"

Deo101

YEAH.

also do you ever comment on your own pages?

like not replying to people

keii4ii

I think I did once or twice, back when I actualy had relevant info and didn't have enough room in author's notes or something

Deo101

I've done it a few times, but it's usually kind of to ask questions where I can get replies

keii4ii

I have also seen a pro Korean creator post "first" on their own comic because they were tired of seeing so many of those

Deo101

I did that once LMAO

it's funny when people comment on my comic "FIRST!!!" cause i'm like. dude i get like 10 comments it's not that special to be first

but i'm happy theyre there and theyre excited its kinda cute i guess

keii4ii

Yeah, it's harmless

Deo101

and it's also nice to have people think that they have to race to be first

even though they don't

so it's kind of a nice comment to get even if it's not commenting on my work at all

keii4ii

It's kinda like hitting the like/heart button, just with more HURRY POINTS

Deo101

yeah hehe

oh i do 100% like all my own pages though

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I actually get the most commenters on Webtoons but I’m (fairly?) sure I have more readers on my website.

Deo101

on webtoons, I don't do it on tapas cause you can see i did it LOL

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I think I only ever got one First! comment and that was the only comment on that page.

keii4ii

Hey no shame in being your own #1 fan

Deo101

the one time I said "first!" was cause it had no comments on it for like a year and a hal

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oh no, I don’t like my own pages. For some weird reason I feel like it’s cheating.

Deo101

and hell YEAH! I'm my number one fan so much that i'm making a dang comic for how much I like these characters ;D

keii4ii

I don't feel bad about liking my own pages, but I rarely do it because I wait a bit before even looking at the post

Deo101

inflate your own stats its cool. all the cool kids are doing it

keii4ii

And by the time I look at it, I forget about liking

Deo101

I only do it on webtoons cause I have to manually post there anyways

so i post and its like "heres the page!" and im like :) good job me :)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I might start doing it. XD I get an average of 5-10 likes per page so why not.(edited)

Deo101

I also rate myself 10* or whatever the max is wherever I can

keii4ii

Yeah, and TBH one like isn't gonna give you an unfair advantage anyway

Deo101

^

keii4ii

If you're making a dozen alt accounts to give yourself more likes, now that's a bit questionable

Deo101

yeah that would be not so good

but you're a real account who likes your work so why not!

keii4ii

Yeah!

Deo101

I also honestly kinda like to sub to my own stuff and like my pages partially to make sure it's all working right

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I should probably rate myself 10* bc both my comics got ratings-bombed at one point for really dumb reasons.

Deo101

like to see when the page goes up and everything

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

The ratings have slowly crawled back up a ways, but it’s always disheartening when people attack my comics for stupid things.

keii4ii

Oh, to go back to an earlier point about asking questions to readers to encourage commenting, I might straight up ask next week if my comic is making any sense.

Deo101

ohhhhh man i dont like swingin at that hive lol

keii4ii

I'll have to word it well because I do not want it to be a pity party

Deo101

but i mean it might encourage the people who do get it to go "yup!"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I do straight up ask every now and then. Sometimes I’ll get a pity comment when I do and sometimes it’s still crickets.

Deo101

also I feel really lucky that I havent had anyone be like, mean to my about my work.

I feel like trolls have really gone down in popularity

keii4ii

like even right now I feel like nobody's getting it (except maybe <10 people) so..... I don't think the answers could make me feel worse

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I meant I straight up ask for comments, ugh, I misread Keiiii’s post.

I GET IT, KEIIII

I LOVE UR BABIES

Deo101

oh man, I could never just ask for comments. if I'm feeling really down I usually send it to my friends like "can i have smth nice please" I just get really anxious asking people for things

not that asking is necessarily bad I just, as a person could never do that

also keiiii I havent read it yet but it's on my list cause the way you talk about your work and what I do know of it... seems like it would really jive right with me

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I usually do it along the lines of: ‘If you enjoy this comic, don’t forget to leave a comment! Getting feedback motivates me to keep drawing!’

Deo101

oh okay thats not so bad

oh my god how are the eyes moving

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m shameless, you can say it

Deo101

I have too much shame probably

keii4ii

It is my anxiety moving the eyeballs

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Give me sone of your shame, it’ll even us out

Deo101

please take it

keii4ii

(anxiety with Nitro powers)

Deo101

NOOO dont be anxious im gonna love it

god that eyes shaking emoji is so great

keii4ii

ikr!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So fun fact- my real face eyes do that

keii4ii

I think Tatsumaki wants to see you do it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s called nystagmus and it’s super trippy if you’ve never seen it before!

keii4ii

OH, I knew someone with that condition!

I never noticed anything about their eyes (only heard about them having the condition from talking), because I never met them while wearing my glasses X'D;;

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My eyes just RANDOMLY do it a lot and it really freaks people out XD

Desnik

I've found that comments don't matter too much, but getting a boost from someone with a big following does

and the only comments I take seriously are from people I trust, although I get it: chasing the internet numbers is fun

snuffysam

what do you mean by "comments don't matter" you mean, like, in terms of garnering popularity?

Desnik

yeah, and as validation they can be a bit fluffy too

my perspective changed when I started printing out my work as zines and got people to buy them irl, it was very eye-opening

very few people commented on them online but in person I've found out they're not bad? And one of them got me a lettering job

keii4ii

Eh, I think it's okay to have different goals. To some people, good comments mean the world, and that's totally valid to want that.

Desnik

I know, just stating my pov

keii4ii

I mean that to some people, a good comment is not just an "internet number."

Desnik

fair enough

I believe I allowed for 'good comments' as being from someone I trust

keii4ii

Me, I treasure insightful comments from anyone who's invested in my story. To each their own

FeatherNotes

I have a book that I write them down to give me a lil boost to morale when I need it! i def appreciate the time it took for someone to write something thoughtful

keii4ii

Yeah!

Capitania do Azar

Oh comments are like.. What I like the most! (not all comments are the same tho). The reason I put my story out there is so I can share it and discuss it with people and the fact that a few take some time off their day to actively tell me what they think it's what keeps me moving

eli [a winged tale]

I really enjoy comments too. I always respond to my Instagram ones but not the comic ones mostly because of platform difficulties

Glowbat (Aloe)

I love reading through all the comments- they really motivate me when I'm having a low point and need a pick me up to get goin on pages. I just wish I was better at knowing how to respond instead of just liking the comment and hoping they recieve my telepathic brainwaves of gratitude

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Replying to comments is very hard and I always have the anxiety of "ruining" it haha ;; whatever it is (the person's enjoyment of my work?? who knows)

Glowbat (Aloe)

I feel that- part of me is always nervous I'm gonna say somethin to off put them or smthn.

Though I do try my best to curate comment sections if things are looking like they're gonna get rowdy

keii4ii

YEAH, and/or sometimes you're like "this comment is Awesome and deserves an Equally Awesome reply... HOW DO I DO THAT" and get stuck in a loop

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss exactly that

I'm not that clever and I require lots of time to come up with anything I'm confident in lol

and by the time I have something cool to say back its been like a week

keii4ii

I made a Discord icon to express my internal response in a visual form to such Awesome comments, but I can only use those on Discord

This one:

Glowbat (Aloe)

Hehe

cuteee

and also a mood

keii4ii

Sparkling tears of happiness

Capitania do Azar

I believe them

Cronaj

Man... I will admit, I barely respond to comments

And that probably sounds terrible

But I honestly don't have time to respond to every comment

As well as the anxiety of not know what to say

It does depend on platform tho

keii4ii

I mean, as a reader I don't expect a reply if my comment is like "ooo nice!"

Cronaj

Generally, I respond more readily to comments on Tapas than on Webtoons, because I only have like 2 commenters at most on Tapas

And usually it's readers who ALWAYS comment, so I almost feel like they deserve a response, even if it's just a smiley face or a "thank you"

keii4ii

But if I've written a long ass essay comment, it would be nice to have some kind of engagement with that. Don't get me wrong, the creator doesn't owe me a reply but it's like... should I ever do this again with this comic. Or is my reply-writing time better spent on another comic

Cronaj

True

keii4ii

I def respect that not every creator has time to read all of the comments, regardless of how many comments they typically get

Cronaj

On Webtoons, I have way more engagement, but most of it is thirst for my characters or talking about the art style

keii4ii

and that not every creator may even aim to get comments

Cronaj

So I don't usually know how to respond to stuff like that

keii4ii

But if that is the case........ I would rather know before committing myself to multiple essay-length comments

Yeah, that is understandable!

Cronaj

I read every comment, but I don't want to respond to all of them

keii4ii

I'm 100% cool with "thicc" comments on my MC's butt or on my tiger dude's legs, but I can't necessarily think of productive replies to those

Cronaj

The only comments I respond to on Webtoons are either a) incredibly funny, b) meaningful and noticing more than the art, or c) a genuine question

Like if someone asks about my update schedule

Or if someone wants to know which programs I use

I had one comment about how good my grammar in the dialogue/thoughts is, and I felt so honored that someone else noticed

Usually I get comments about the art (which is also nice), but I prefer comments about the story or subtleties

keii4ii

It's the best thing when people notice the things that you put a lot of thought and love into

Cronaj

For several years in high school, I played around with the idea of getting a writing degree, so grammar and literary language have a special place in my heart

sssfrs

I respond to every single comment... I get one comment a month pretty much though

When friends or readers say nice things about my comic on any platform I save a screenshot and read them if I start to feel like nobody likes what I’m making

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I do the exact same

FeatherNotes

Its a good practice when things are kind of slow! Or just for that lip morale boost too

[groundramon]

Cartoon asks: ALL OF THEM

THANK YOU SO MUCH OMFG

also i totally didnt fill all these out in advance and twiddle my thumbs in anticipation, hoping someone would send me this ask, nope not at all                 

1. A cartoon you remember that nobody else does.Back at the Barnyard.  That fucking show…oh my god

2. A cartoon you like but nobody else seems to.Well technically I remember liking Back at the Barnyard but I haven’t watched that show since I was like 8 or 9 so idk if I’d like it now akjsfkfkgjh I kinda doubt it now because my bullshit-tolerance-meter for television has significantly shortened.  Uhhh the only other cartoons I can think of that I liked that don’t seem to be liked by a lot of people are like…the DreamWorks cartoons (when they were on Nickelodeon and CN that is, I don’t have Netflix rip) and the Lego cartoons (except Ninjago because apparently that has a fandom?? what??) like I thought they were okay at the time at least.  (Also I guess the HTTYD cartoon wasnt hated, because it was fucking HTTYD, but //shrug)

3. A cartoon you don’t like but everybody else seems to. ADVENTURE TIME and like everything on Cartoon Network except Steven Universe and We Bare Bears honestly.  Like Adventure Time isn’t my cup of tea but I’m like “alright, some of those plots actually seem kind of interesting, I guess I can see where people are coming from” but like… shit like Clarence and Uncle Grandpa??  I’m all for people having different opinions but I don’t know how you can even get past the art style, let alone the writing style and some of the voice acting ;-; you are a stronger person than I’ll ever be if you can get past that lmao

4. A cartoon you wish would be forgotten.Uhhh pretty much everything on Nickelodeon from 2010-2014 (besides the dreamworks cartoons basically) and the shit reboots that CN’s been pumping out (namely TTG and the PPG reboot, but the Ben 10 reboot looks REALLY lazy, so at least it doesn’t annoy me [or I haven’t seen anything from it that annoys me] but…)

5. The worst cartoon you’ve ever seen, and why?Fanboy and Chum Chum, as far as cartoons I’ve actually watched go (because hoo boy, worse cartoons exist out there).  Everything about that cartoon is…wrong and broken.  It has one style of humor and that’s toilet/gross out humor.  The “straight man” so to speak, basically an emo teen version of Squidward, is actually…not Squidward in-show??  Like in the intro he’s very clearly set out to be a grouch who hates the main characters, but in the show he’s just…an introvert that gets wrapped into their plans and only snaps at them when they actually hurt him.  The protagonists are annoying as fuck and are psychopaths that deserve to be locked up in a mental institution.  It’s not funny.  The voice acting is annoying as hell.  And the animation is disgusting.  I didn’t know it was even possible to make 3d animation look this rendered yet still look so bad, but apparently it is.  Like they took extra effort into making the show look WORSE.  I will say that its impressive that they managed to get such tooney designs to exist in a 3d space, but that doesn’t do you shit good when the animation is gross.

6. The worst moment you’ve ever seen happen in a cartoon.Directly, as in I was watching the show?  Something in Fanboy and Chum Chum.  Indirectly, as in I watched a review where they showed the scene or I read about it?  Something in Family Guy, or the self-insert in the PPG reboot.  Yeah there’s a self-insert in the PPG reboot.  Every time I think it cant get worse…it does.

7. The worst thing you’ve ever seen happen to a cartoon that ruined it.I was really neutral on Teen Titans Go (some of the jokes made me laugh but others were really cringey, but it was at least funny some of the time and the art didn’t hurt me as much as other shows on CN, so whatever) but then I found out that they’ve actively attacked their critics in-show and have generally responded very poorly to criticism and…asdf.  Like its one thing to stay quiet, it’s another thing to embrace it and say “yeah we know its stupid, but it made us laugh!” (which they did do, kinda), but it’s another thing to spit in the face of everyone who has a problem with it (and not even address their criticisms, like they act like they did but?? no they fucking didn’t??).  Like the problem I have with the show is not that it’s stupid.  The problem is that the writers say “yeah, it’s for kids, so it should be stupid” (its not even “well it made us laugh” from what I remember), the problem is that the writers never watched the original show and completely ruined the legacy of a show that actually took itself seriously, the problem is that the writers are so fucking high on their horses that they respond to the haters IN-SHOW and LAUGH AT THEM.  My problem is not with the show itself, my problem is with the culture it embodies.  It embodies the worst of Hollywood entitlement, cheap shithole cashcow shows, cheap reboots that disappoint fans of the original, “stupid because its for kids” cartoons, and basically the worst Hollywood has to offer.

8. A cancelled/forgotten cartoon you would bring back to television.Uhh if nothing happens with Infinity Train then that, but besides that…another series of Avatar (like following a new avatar) would be fucking great but I don’t want to put the creators through the hell that is Nickelodeon lmao.  I also thought Harvey Beaks looked nice, like I never watched it but it looked okay, so I’d be okay with bringing that back too if it made the creator happier (honestly the poor creator…nickelodeon treated him really badly too)

9. An animated character you remember but nobody else seems to.Pete from Steven Universe lmao like where did he goJoking aside (SU is too relevant to count for this) uhHHH fuck I guess the characters in the Monsters vs Aliens cartoon? nobody remembers that movie but the show kinda cemented the characters in my mind (I would’ve said back at the barnyard but honestly I don’t remember the characters until you show them to me, besides like the main cow guy, whoops)

10. An animated character you hate the most, and why?Onion annoys me.  Like…he’s that kind of character that has no rhyme or reason behind what he does.  He’s the kind of character whose entire personality just relies on the kind of Adventure Time-esque humor that I just don’t get or enjoy.  The kind of humor that just creeps or grosses me out or bores me instead of making me burst out laughing.  The kind of humor that’s physical-based, but just too slow and poorly paced to be funny like slapstick.  I don’t know how to explain it, but it’s exactly how Onion seems to me and that’s why I dislike Onion.  In Doug Out, for example, Onion has no gross out or creep out jokes, and I don’t mind him as much.  Like he’s not a GOOD character, he still doesn’t bother insisting that there’s something else out there when the others disagree with him, but at least he isn’t scaring me.  OH AND MARCUS FROM DIGIMON DATA SQUAD I immediately thought Onion because he’s a cartoon character, but since this is just for animation in general…aksdhfgfkj i dont know why I hate Marcus so much, I dont want to hate Marcus so much, but I do.  His response to everything is just to punch everything and he’s so entitled and annoying and hotheaded and aAAARG HES JUST INFURIATING, I DIDNT THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE TO BE THIS MAD OVER A CHARACTER THAT ISNT FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN BUT HERE I AM

11. A non-animated property you would like to see as a cartoonidk if this counts because it’d have to be an anime probably but FOSSIL FIGHTERS CHAMPIONS!!! LITERALLY I WOULD CRY IF THIS WAS MADE INTO A MANGA OR ANIME PLEASE @ NINTENDO MY FAMILY IS STARVING but seriously can you imagine like….you could have a mute main character (its implied that the protagonist talks a few times but they could be selectively mute or just mime and the dialogue could be rearranged appropriately) and if you choose the female protagonist you could make her gay for Pauleen??? Like I refuse to accept the male protagonist as the “canon” main character bc I want gay sorry.  BUT LIKE!!!  You wouldn’t have to write that much bc its already written!! and its really fucking ridiculous and would probably appeal to like…TTG-loving kids because its so silly asdf BUT ITS ALSO GOOD, IT HAS HEART, PLEASE THIS IS SUCH A GOOD IDEA like its not a good idea for manga/anime because it IS kinda ridiculous and childish but?? it would fit so well as a western cartoon???  Hey Nintendo can you please give me a license to produce this because I swear to god I would if I could

12. A trope or trend in animation that you dislike.Well there are a lot but they aren’t exclusive to animation…?  "Blonde popular bitch" and “damsel in distress” have been two of my personal most-hated for all my life because of who I am/was, but there are others I dislike too.  I also really hate the kinda…style that Adventure Time set up in cartoons.  Like I guess AT isn’t really responsible for ugly-looking cartoons and the type of humor that I dislike, because looking at CN before it aired there were already shows like that (Chowder, Flapjack…) but I think AT really popularized them and :/ it also reworked the same concepts in Chowder and Flapjack and people were like “WOWEE CARTOON RENAISSANCE !!!” and I just kinda….idk.  I have a lot of personal baggage against AT lmao sorry AT fans, like I don’t even hate the show and not all of its effects were bad (not in the slightest) but like TTG I have issues with some of the things it popularized.

13. A currently airing cartoon that you know is going to be forgotten about in the future.Hmm, We Bare Bears maybe, or like Mighty Magiswords.  Like CN plasters Mighty Magiswords everywhere but nobody gives a shit about that show so I feel like its only a matter of time before it disappears yknow?? but maybe im wrong.  WBB doesn’t get the attention it deserves so yeah.  Also maybe that Bunsun is a Beast cartoon over on Nickelodeon? im not sure man

14. The best episode of a cartoon you really like.The Southern Raiders (that’s only one of my favorites tho, like?? The Puppetmaster is tied for first in that season, and that’s just in that season, not including the other two seasons of ATLA)

15. The worst episode of a cartoon you really like.Rocknaldo or any episode centering around Onion, e u c k

16. A cartoon you feel deserves more recognition than it gets.Uhhhhh fuck everything I watch is mainstream cries WBB isn’t that popular and like its a cute, perfectly fine show, but its not like…revolutionary

17. A cartoon you feel deserves less recognition than what it gets.ADVENTURE TIME, also s/o to Regular Show, Clarence, Uncle Grandpa…like those last two aren’t even universally liked but sorry I still think they get too much praise asdf

18. The worst idea you can think of for an animated series.It already exists and its called One Ounce Mouse, but honestly adult cartoons in general are…a bad idea.  Like if you’re just gonna use your adult rating to offend people instead of using it to be insightful or using it to be ACTUALLY FUNNY, what the fuck are you doing with your life?  You should be fired tbqh

19. At what point did you realize a cartoon, any cartoon was starting to get bad?I can’t remember when I realized SpongeBob was starting to get bad, but it was sometime around 2010 or so.  I remember getting really sick of the show when it went to HD/fullscreen because for some reason, all the new character designs got…significantly worse??  Like the season premiere of that season (cant remember which season it was, don’t care to look it up) had three new characters and they all looked…so fucking ugly?  It was really hard to look at?  Like seriously they looked like something out of Sanjay and Craig, not SpongeBob.  Even the main character designs just…looked too smooth and rounded and not good to me.  It reminds me of like Family Guy and i dont like that overly smooth, “we have too much money so we blew it on extra in-between frames instead of good-looking art” style.  I think the final breaking point for me was Squid Baby and the episode where Gary got overly attached to a ball, and realizing that after an episode that actually was kinda legitimately nice (it was the one about Plankton getting a pet) they were never going to bring up Plankton’s pet again and ugh.  Like lack of continuity is nothing new but I really wish he had kept the pet, it was the best thing to happen to the show in literal years.  Like seriously that episode was the best new episode in years, it was legitimately cute even though I had a beef with some of the character designs (as I always did in that season)

20. An experience with a cartoon you thought you were going to like but turned you away from it.I tried watching Bee and Puppycat the other day and it really….put me off….because it had more of that Adventure Time style humor and I legitimately thought it interfered with how the plot should’ve progressed.  Like Bee was way too okay with everything and we didn’t get any explanation for anything because instead she just made weird noises and bit a monster’s tongue off.  I’m still gonna watch the other episodes for the heck of it, so maybe I’ll change my mind, but eh

21. Something you would like to see more than anything in a cartoon.It already exists and it’s called Avatar: The Last Airbender + The Legend of Korra

22. What do you feel makes a cartoon forgettable?That’s….actually a really good question.  Because like, I would’ve forgotten about Adventure Time years ago if it hadn’t been drilled into my head that everyone else thought it was the best thing ever and I didn’t.  I might be off my SU high by now if I didn’t keep reblogging/reading SU-related stuff on tumblr lol.  I guess blandness is what makes your cartoon forgettable.  If its not so bad that it’s funny/everyone needs to insult it, but its not good enough that it gets good reviews, then there’s just…no place for your cartoon, especially if its not profitable so it gets cancelled quickly.

[winterfellchild]

Just to avoid this ending in the wrong tag I screenshot your question.

This is going to be long but since you think you know me well enough I think you should read it because you won’t find someone who knows more than I do about myself... ok that’s not true, maybe my mom knows a great deal about me too but she is not on tumblr so you’re stuck with me.

Just a quick note for everyone else: under the cut there is a looong post mostly about myself so I can assure you it will be boring and I would have talked with this person in private but I don't have the pleasure to know his/her account so I have to share it here.

OK, where do I start?

With the fact that your opening is wrong:

You sound more like a Sansa fan than anything else

There is a mistake in what you wrote:

it’s not that I sound like a Sansa fan more than anything else, I AM a Sansa fan more than anything else.

If you think there’s something wrong in this fact that’s your problem, I’m fine with it and I’m happy about it.

But since you wrote it like there’s something wrong in liking a character more than anything else I’m curious about your reasons... do you think that people can love only one thing?

Or in this case, only one character?

Really?

Then I must be a strange person because I thought it was ok to love more than one character at the same time with the same intensity.

Believe it or not liking Sansa does not preclude to me the possibility to like other characters.

Now that I've got that sorted out, I can talk about this:

I am wondering how you will act towards Jon if the leaks happen and if Jon and Dany end up together and Sansa never happens... I love Jon and I get the impression that you will basically ban all of the jon related stuff because your dear SAnsa doesnt get what she should get according your opinion.            

This statement leaves me quite perplexed, why “will I ban all of the Jon related stuff”?

Don’t I like Jon?

I don’t remember writing that... oh yes, I didn’t write that because I like Jon.

If only you'd asked me before you made your own conclusions I would have told you that I liked Jon even before I liked Jonsa and if you'd have read my blog a little you would have know that I only started to ship Jonsa during season 6... and don’t be shocked but I loved the Starks since season 1.

I admit I liked Robb maybe a little more back then but that’s Richard’s fault and I started to like Jon after he went to the Wall in season 1.

If I want to be more precise I can even tell you when I really started to like him MORE than other characters: season 1 episode 8 “The pointy end” when I watched this scene:

Ser Alliser: Now there's a rare sight. Not only a bastard, but a traitor's bastard. Jon looks Alliser in his eyes. Silence occur for a few seconds. Then, suddenly Jon tries to strike Alliser, but is stopped by Pypar and Grenn. Samwell Tarly: Jon, no! Jon, stop, put it down! Ser Alliser: Blood will always tell. You'll hang for this, bastard.

It was so unfair, he couldn’t help his family at all and on top of that he was even called a traitor’s bastard by someone like Ser Alliser.

I mean, insult on top of injury... imo Ser Alliser was a vile man more than usual in that scene.

I’m not a nice person if someone does something bad to the people I love and I can’t stay away if they are in trouble so I really was sad for Jon, alone at the Wall with a snake like Ser Alliser.

I hadn’t read the books at that time so I was waiting for him to join Robb... but it never happened :(

Nevertheless since then Jon was one of my favourite, one of these characters that I like more than anything else.

All the Starks are in this group and if you want I can tell you when I started to like everyone of them in a special way but I won’t since this is already long enough.

Now, what can I say about me banning “all of the Jon related stuff” if my ship won’t happen?

I sound like an immature vapid shipper, but I’m sure that was not what you mean because it’s extremely rude to judge someone you don't know.

Maybe I shouldn’t but I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt since you said you’re not an hater, maybe you’re just someone who jumps to conclusions.

See, here's the thing: I’m not a person that will ban or hate a character just because he won’t do what I want him to do.

I think it’s too serious and personal to ban or hate someone and after all we are talking about fictional characters, they are not real.

I admit that I feel very connected with some fictional characters, I laugh and cry with them ( I always did even when I was little), sometimes I’m heartbroken about something that happen to them for a while but I don’t think that it’s healthy to be so serious about them to the point of hate... compassion and empathy are good, hate is never good.

Maybe you said that because you think that it’s normal to hate a fictional character to the point that you will erase his existence, but IT IS NOT NORMAL and you shouldn’t go around saying what someone else will do when you don’t know anything about that someone just because you have an “impression“, I’m not a fictional character, someone you can speculate about, I’m a real person just like you and a bunch of posts on a pubblic blog don't define who I am as a person. It’s terribly presumptuous that you think you know what I will do.

Who are you?

Do I know you?

Will you be happy to receive a message from a stranger who has the audacity to brand you like a hater?

Will you be happy to receive a message from a stranger who decided who you like and who you hate without consulting you?

I don’t think so.

I should stop here because really I already said the important part but I’m going to talk about the boring topic before I end this because I don’t want you or anyone else to think I avoid it, you already have too many wrong ideas about me so I’ll talk about the leaks... AGAIN.

I can’t wait for season 7 to air so people will focus more on the show.

I don’t know anymore how to say this: I DON’T BELIEVE UNOFFICIAL SOURCES

I don’t care about who you like or about who you hate and I don’t care who you ship just don’t use the leaks like an absolute truth if you want me to take you seriously.

Maybe the leaks are true, all of them can be true, however as of today no one knows it.

I’ll believe what I’ll see.

I don’t think the leaks are absolutely true but I can be wrong, after all I’m just a viewer like you.

Nevertheless I can say I don’t like them if I don’t like them.

And if I’ll be wrong... I’ll just be wrong, I’ll be extremely disappointed for sure but it’s not like I can do anything about it.

We have a saying in my country, I tried to find the english translation but there is not a perfect translation so I’ll tell you the latin version maybe you’ll have more luck to find it:

si uel a papa mortua

"life goes on” explain the concept of this saying well.

I mean, no matter what life goes on.

I can be heartbroken, I WILL BE heartbroken, but there is more in my life than Jonsa, Sansa, Jon and GoT so stop wondering about “how I will act towards Jon“ and let me assure you that no harm will come to him because:

I already said I like him, maybe even more than you do... you sent an anonymous message so we can’t compare who likes him more;

I have no real power over Jon’s future;

if after all I wrote you’re still wondering about how a stranger will act towards Jon that’s your problem.

  Lastly:

Btw I am not a jonsa hater, I dont really ship anyone on the show

Good for you that you’re not a jonsa hater, hate is bad for the soul but I still think you’re presumptuous.

I just want happiness for the Starks 

It’s the same for me, we see the show differently ( more likely we see life differently) but that doesn’t mean that we can’t have the same goal about a fictional story.

[plusultrachaos]

i sometimes wish id never been born at all

prompt: dan, one day, wishes hed never been born. he is then visited by a "ghost" (another youtuber) who shows dan everybodys lives if he was never born. dan doesnt believe that anything is worse off until they show phils life which is simply a gravestone.

A/N: i did change somethings from the prompt. i also envisioned the prompt as something similar to the Scrooge.

word count: 2113

genre: angst and if you squint fluff

tw: there are mentions and a viewing of two suicides (the viewing is against dans will  and is only on one of two suicides) there are mentions of depression and bullying. if this is something that could trigger, harm, or cause you pain of any kind, i recommend not reading this oneshot.

________________

its one of dans bad days. its one of the bad days where hes trying to be social, at least talk to phil some, maybe a bit of action on social media, before his inevitable departure from society and hopefully his own exsistance for a little while.

while hes browsing on said social media, he feels phil leaning toward him and picking something from under dans eye, pulling his hand away to reveal a small, thick eyelash.

"howd you even notice that, phil?" his voice was soft, fond, and holding no surprise at phils ability to notice the little details.

"make a wish and i might tell you." phil wore a teasing smile as he failed to wink, the corners of his mouth crinkling, showing the smile wrinkles that had developed as the years of their friendship passed.

'i wish i were never born' was the wish dan had made, he wanted to go hide away, hide the wish hed made in his brain to echo there for hours. everybodys lives would be better, easier, if he hadnt been born in the first place, all the haters wouldnt have to hate him in the first place. phil would probably be further in life. his family wouldnt have him as a disappointment.

"i have to go to my room." he looked at phil, whos face was still in  sort of close proximity to his own face. he didnt say why, or what he was going to do once in there, but phil knew him well enough to understand why the younger man had been quiet the entirety of him being up and out of his room, why he hadnt laughed at a single funny thing that phil had shown him.

"okay. remember to drink water and come out of there when you need food, okay?" phils eyes held the usual, useless, concern that dan knew phil didnt actually feel. dan wasnt worth the concern and he definitely did not deserve the concern or a friend like phil at all.

he nodded, knowing that if phil didnt actually see dan out of the room to get food or water, hed personally bring the food and drink to dan. dan got up and numbly left the lounge for his room. he left his laptop there, knowing he wouldnt need it the next few days or so.

he collapsed on his bed, his thoughts going on about him being worthless and a disappointment, along with other degrading things. he turned his phone off, setting it on his nightstand. he curled up into a ball and became even more numb to the world. when he fell asleep? dan wouldnt have been able to tell you.

when dan woke up, it felt weird. it felt like what his lucid dreams used to feel like when  hed been a kid. he also didnt feel as he did when he assumed hed fallen asleep, furthuring the feeling of this being weird and unusual. well, those things, and the youtube god himself, pewdiepie, or felix as hed told dan and phil to call him when theyd met up in the past, standing at the end of dans bed.

"felix? why are you in my room?" he was slightly creeped out. he only ever really saw felix at youtube events anymore, and even then, it wasnt much.

"i know who this felix person is, but i am not him. i am the ghost of youtubers past." felix, or rather the ghost, said, the voice was eerily similar to felix' and it creeped dan out further. "recently, youve wished for something along the lines of never being born at all, am i correct to say this?"

"yeah, but hold up, why in bloody hell are you in my -me and phils- flat? howd you even get in?" dan looked confused, he was staying as far as he possibly could be from felix, or the ghost or whatever the fuck it was, which meant he was huddled against the headboard of his bed. "what has my stupid eyelash wish have got to do with any of this?"

"daniel, im here to show you how your friends and family would have really been if you hadnt been born. you see, your thoughts after the wish, about everybody being better off without you, were mostly wrong. your family, that thought, was the only one that was partially correct. yes, if they didnt have you as their son, all of the things that you think they think of you would disappear, but they would have still had two children. your grandma wouldve been just as close with them as she was to you." then suddenly, at the end of the ghosts words, dans room transformed, his fairylights  and comfortable bed morphing into something else. all dan could do was watch.

his surroundings had changed into a huge decorated and lit up christmas tree with wrapped gifts underneath. there were two children, a teenaged girl and a younger boy, perhaps a toddler, pulling at a christmas cracker. when the young boy ended up getting the bigger end of the game, the older sister said "happy christmas!" with fondness that made dans heart ache. the siblings looked close, and happy. happier than dan and his younger brother had been at those ages.  it made dan long for that kind of relationship with the lad. it also brought a bitter taste and thoughts to dan. the girl, for obvious reasons, wasnt dan. their mannerisms very  different, her smile lacking a dimple.

"yazzy, go help your mum in the kitchen." an old woman, that dan immediately recognized as his (or rather not his) grandma, walked in to the room. he hadnt visited the kind, aging woman in years, and seeing this made him feel guilty.

he turned to the ghost, tears forming and wetting his eyes. "can we leave? i already knew i was insignificant in their lives." he said this, his voice small as he looked away from the scene playing out before him. the ghost nodded and then they were in a different location once again.

it was his friend, louises current home. but it was empty, no baby toys or anything in the flat hed gotten used to being busy.

"louises success mightve been all her, but you helped in the process, being there when she needed a friend. she didnt have darcy because she never met her partner." the ghost said this with a grim look. dan looked around, sad eyes gazing everywhere. it was then he realized he hadnt rung up louise in weeks.

"fuck..." was dans whispered response to the situation.

the location faded again, taking them to a park. pj sat on the bench in front of dan and the ghost. he was talking to people that dan didnt recognize. "pj and chris never became a couple because you werent there to help them realize their feelings for each other." dan looked down at the ghosts words. they stung, knowing his friends hadnt gotten together just because dan hadnt been born.

" and chris? what would his fate have been if id never been around?" the ghost pointed at a man walking behind them, talking on the phone. he didnt spare pj a single look.

"without your constant encouragement, he dropped youtube. he got an office job and quickly climbed the ranks." the words sounded sad.

the location changed yet again, to a sight he never wanted to see again. they were in an unfamiliar bedroom, it was dark and there was an even darker silhouette hanging from a ceiling fan. dan feared the worst. the sight of it made dan want to curl into a ball. there was pounding on the closed door.

dan watched in silence, mouth open in a silent cry as the parents of the silhouette opened the door. the mother fell into the fathers arms, crying loudly. the father was frozen, terror shining in his eyes as he took in the sight of the cold and lifeless body. the  room faded into a plain, white room that had no soothing qualities to dan.

"that was ben. in a world with you in it, he would have found the courage to come out as a transmale and gay. without you, he never learned of his parents acceptance. he wouldve committed suicide if not for your videos." the ghost said this softly, its eyes sad. "this is the sad reality of the fans. some are not in good situations and so they turn to youtube for an escape. without your videos, a lot of fans dont have that escape." dans face grew even more sad as he realized that had been the same reality that he had faced before becoming a youtuber.

"and phil? what would have happened to him?" this question had been on his mind the entire time they had been in this weird dreamland. the ghosts already sad face saddened even more and the scenery changed once again.

dan looked confused as his eyes wondered around the area. they were in a graveyard in the middle of the day. except dan couldnt see any services being held that phil wouldve attended.

"where is he? why are we in a graveyard?" his questions were frantic as he continued searching for the wonderous blue-yellow-green eyes and the dyed black hair of his best friend. then his gaze landed on the gravestone of the grave they were in front of. he dropped to his knees, his face blank as he read the stone.

Here lies

Philip Michael Lester

January 30th, 1987-June 22nd, 2012

He was loved dearly by fans, friends, and family.

"phil didnt have a number one fan to skype him to take his mind off his problems, to correct him when he thought of how weird he was and how weird everybody was bound to think of him."

"unique. phil is unique, not weird." dan corrected without hesitation.

"that is what i mean when i say that. he didnt have somebody to do that when youtube comments started telling him he was weird. he didnt have someone to be an iconic duo with. he killed himself when it all got to be too much." the ghost went quiet after telling that to dan, most likely letting the man grieve his best friend.

dan had started sobbing loudly. "n...no no no. take me home, this cant be real, this is not real." he whimpered, his eyes were screwed shut as he sobbed over the possibility of his optimistic, cheery best friend taking his life. he missed the transformation of the landscape, still sobbing loudly by the time hed been back in the comfort of his bedroom.

the ghost was no longer there and there was loud knocking. and to dans relief, phil called out his name with concern that dan was now certain was genuine. phil came in, rushing to the side of the monochrome bed to take the brown haired crying man into his arms. he knew better than to ask what was wrong right away, so he just held him.

"phil, promise me you wont believe people when they say hateful things toward you?" he asked this in a panicked rush, his words stuttered as he looked with terrified eyes at phil.

" i promise." phil held dan close, the sound of his heartbeat tethering dan to reality.

"i had a dream." dan proceeded to tell phil about what hed wished and then about the dream he had afterward. when he was done, phil held him. dan was still crying, but it had subsided a lot with the knowledge of phil being alive. "im sorry, phil. i know i shouldnt have wished for something so morbid and sad, but it was before an episode and i cant control my thoughts during those." he cuddled to phils chest, sniffling.

" dan, you know i love you. you know im always going to be here to support and comfort you." phils voice was soft and supportive, deep unlike what the viewers usually heard. "you dont have to apologize at all for the way your brain works, just like i dont. im glad you realized that that wasnt real, but i dont want you thinking that i wouldve been better off without you because i wouldnt be as far as i am today if i didnt have you by my side. dont ever tell yourself otherwise." he smiled his amazing smile that was saved just for dan.

dan leaned into phils chest, breathing in the comforting scent.   he sighed as he realized that life would be better with him and phil still alive.

____________________

i did end up mentioning dans family, but i only did briefly dont hate me.

[jovi-critic]

THE TRUTH YBOUT BON JOVI I once used to be the greatest Bon Jovi Fan. For almost 10 years. But somehow then everything broke down. Now I just hate that guy. I am not a usual hater. I have my good reasons, understand it or not. I had that pretty picture of Bon Jovi, but unfortunately i figured out that that´s not true at all. When you only know the official stuff everything seems so perfect. But when you consider it deeper... His whole image is just a FAKE. Jon Bon Jovi is just a BIG FAT LIE! It´s said everywhere that he never has scandals and that he is sooo faithful and a great husband. He has such a good and clean image. He seems like a very good paragon. But in fact he is not. Not at all! He only seems like a good paragon. He is a hypocrite! I got to know stuff, believe me! I have safe insider sources! He only claims he doesn't like the typical Rockstar lifestyle at all and he always seems to be very clean. BUT, when you take a deeper look, you can find out what he is really like. He is the typical cliché Rocker! He even gives many hints in Interviews (like when he say's he's praying for last night's sins, or when he appears in shows like Howard Stern), and also Songlyrics like Dirty little secret or I'm your man. If you really pay attention this is even very obviously. He seems to have some kind of "opened marriage". He's got a "misteress" in LA, he always visits when he's in town. He said that a blowjob is no sex to him and he gets it really often when he is on tour. The people he hooks up with usually accept a contract to not make anything puplic. He still uses to go to Stripclubs frequently and his wife knows about everything. They might have some kind of "deal" there. He is not that innocent at all! Believe it or not. He has the money to keep up his shiny fake image. He is not what he seems to be! Eg. he acted in Ally McBeal just to have sex with the main actress. It didn't want to happen though. Rumor has it also, that he dated a swedish Model in 2005. Bon Jovi seems to have a good deal with the press that they don't write anything too private. He also said that he has a wonderful thing going on with the Paparazzi. He has the money too keep his private life private. He even says there are some things that he will take to his grave. And he doesn't wear underwear (at least in 80s time) and his wedding ring on stage. What a stupid pervert asshole! He wants to own a sportsteam very bad. He is very intrested in this and he is supporting much of it. He even pushes his children to get into this as well. In 2013 he tried to buy some NFL Team but he failed. Many haters started burning his CDs. I can understand that. Why can´t he just be a musican and keep out of that fuck?! He also wants to go into the politics. This makes me so aggressive! And I am going to prophesy you, that he defenately WILL buy such a team in the future. There´s no doubt about it! His music,- more and more of it is just STOLEN! E.g.: Saturday night gave me sunday morning. It is 1:1 copied from Nickelbacks Gotta be somebody! Water made me is stolen from David Bowie, Fingerprints by the Eagles… there are so many more. I could make an endless list. … He always pretents to be so good and nice, but behind his treacherous fassade he is such a big liar! He started making music because he wanted to "pick up some chicks". He is more about girls than the music. Today, he only still makes his music because of the money! And that´s not even a secret. He has a bee farm so that he does not even have to pay his fucking taxes. He is a controllfreak and wants to be the boss of everything. He doesn't answer to some questions in interviews, if an interviewer asks a not wanted question, he's about to end the interview. He hates interviews and is a very different person with them. He is often unfriendly to reporters because of that. The Album Burning Bridges was only a fullfillment to the Recordlabel. The label did not gave him all the money he wanted. He recorded a angry hate Song against the label and wanted to leave. The other songs on the album are older songs he did not like, but also not throw away. But he said he thinks these songs are so bad, he wants to burn it. Paradoxly, he described THIS Album as a "Fan record." The Album that he only made for fullfillments and because of money. Embarrassingly for him, a year later he crawled back to his old label. He seems to have a very splitted character, as the ones who watch interviews may have noticed. For example: He says he doesn't want to sing cheesy tounge in cheak songs anymore, but he does exactly that. (Labor of love) He says he doesn't want to be a nostalgia act, but on his shows he plays only the greatest hits and not much from the new Album the tour is about. He pretents to be anti bullying, but he was the one who started a fist fight with 60 other people against one single person in 89. Today he says A, tomorrow he says B. Maybe he tries to make it right for everyone, or maybe he is just an undecided person. And he is very selfloving. He really claimed that the kind of music he makes was not there before him. And he does lie so often, even though most of all it´s about small things, like he claims he never dyed his hair, or he never had a plastic surgery... What about his teeth, huh??! And he colored his hair for years. + he doesn't like cats AND dogs. It seems like he doesn't like animals very much in general and he wears very often snakeleather and so on. This makes me really hate him. Jovi still makes music because he thinks he has to do it because its his Job! He is touring because of the money only. He wants more and more. He is a businessman, nothing else. He makes his music just to sell it. He knows how to keep up a good, clean image that makes people love him. He is good in marketing himself. But the real man behind this shiny pretty fassade is a totally different guy! There have also been so many broken promises. Like when he says the new Album would be a big rock record. No it´s not! And he also promised Videos, or other things, that never happened. He changes his mind like a girl changes her clothes. You can never believe what he says. Most of his fans are dumb old whomen drooling over his look. This is so terrible. I never was friend with those people. They always hate around and attack each other. I never had a chance. There are so many bad memories. I´ve been through so many fights and doubts. I can´t stand them all! Bon Jovi is so fake, the whole image is a fake! He´s are not at all what he pretends to be. He is more than the cliche of a rocker! He is lying and lying all over! He dont even regrets it. I used to be a big fan, i really loved him once, but then i realized who he really is. I fucking hate it now! This is so wrong! This shiny pretty picture,- all a lie! I AM SO DISAPPOINTED! Fucking stupid Rocker who only takes the piss out of his idiotic drooling fans. Dear Jon Bon Jovi: You dont deserve all the fame, success, love, luck and the bitches you fuck. I know about your secret behaviors and why you do what you do. Please stop it! I always hoped you changed but you´ll never do. You make me so sick! motherfucking asshole, and I thought you were better. You broke me, assrocker!! The reason why I made this channel is to upload only one video, and my text here. Because I want the world to know what´s so wrong with Bon Jovi! I burn my Fan stuff to finally let it all go. I´ve had so much pain because of this. I had so many doubts and i suffered. Yeah, I AM ANGRY, ANNOYED, FRUSTRATED and SO ENDLESSLY DISAPPOINTED! Everything that I ever liked about BJ was a big lie! Everything I never wanted is true. I had to let my frustration out. Yeah, i am a psycho. And i am a wreck. He destroyed and disturbed me in the deepest way. I´m insane, i know. Everything just went as wrong as something can go wrong. Now i am burning the bridges to Bon Jovi. Well, fuck!

from Jovi Critic http://ift.tt/2twsGqK via IFTTT

[viralhottopics]

Piers Morgan: Im just putting opinions out there. Its my job

This week Morgan has taken on the Womens March, argued with Ewan McGregor, and boasted about being Donald Trumps best British friend. Why does he do it? Does he even believe what he says?

Piers Morgan last cried when his grandmother died, a little more than three years ago. Before that, he cant remember. Im not a crier, really. He sees himself more as a pantomime villain, and I thoroughly enjoy playing up to it. I cant even imagine the pressure of being some kind of national treasure. So for me, the panto villain part, I actually enjoy that whole thing.

Even by his own notorious standards, Morgan has had a fractious week. His Daily Mail column on Monday, which criticised last weekends womens marches, provoked Ewan McGregor to cancel an appearance on Good Morning Britain in protest. Morgan retaliated with another column calling the actor a paedophile-loving hypocrite. Feminists were furious with him all over again when he defended the right of employers to compel female staff to wear high heels.

Then, as Theresa May prepared to meet Donald Trump, he taunted Downing Street by firing off a public memo in the Mail, advising the PM or, to put it another way, showing off about how to approach his friend, the president. If its all going horribly wrong, dont hesitate to mention my name or even give me a call directly from the Oval Office and I will smooth things over. Its the very least I can do for my country. A memorable highlight came with his mute appearance at the National Television awards. He stood beside his Good Morning Britain co-presenter Susanna Reid, who had gagged him with his own tie.

It was Susannas idea, he says. We were in the car on the way, and she said, I think I know exactly how to get a joyous reaction from the nation. And it was indeed one of the great moments in British television, and the nation rejoiced.

The only detail of the weeks dramas that appears to have troubled Morgan was the discovery that working with him makes Reid cry.

I was surprised, he says, suddenly quieter. Because shes never cried at work, never seen her like that at all. So it was an interesting thing for me to discover this week that my co-host quite often goes home from work and cries. Its probably not always unconnected to me. How does he feel about that? A bit uneasy, actually. Quieter still. Yeah. A bit uneasy.

Ive known Morgan a little ever since he was the loud, precociously young editor of the Daily Mirror in the 1990s, and have always enjoyed his company tremendously. But our paths havent crossed since Trumps bid for the presidency propelled the journalist into his surprise new role as the leader of the free worlds best friend in Britain. The pair have been on close terms since 2008, when Morgan won the first series of Celebrity Apprentice, and Morgan now performs the role of Trumps tirelessly loyal defender while constantly claiming to be not a political sympathiser but just a personal friend.

When I watched Morgan reduce a young female guest to tears on Good Morning Britain two weeks ago, berating her as the worst kind of mother, I wondered whether I would still enjoy his company. The tone felt uncomfortably ugly, more in keeping with an altright online troll than the mischief-maker who used to conduct playful feuds with clowns like Jeremy Clarkson. This weeks events could be read by critics as further evidence to support the unhappy impression that cheerleading for Trump has soured Morgan, and turned him into a rightwing, misogynistic bully.

If one is looking for further evidence to confirm that impression, Morgan doesnt disappoint. The 51-year-old bounces into his local pub, just off Kensington High Street, and opens with his reaction to Trumps comments about waterboarding and torture he is exercised by the BBCs misreporting of what Trump said. There is, as you know, a massive debate in America about waterboarding. I dont personally subscribe to torture. But its an arguable point as to whether waterboarding constitutes torture which is startlingly tepid for a man who once campaigned against the abuse of Iraqi detainees by coalition forces.

Morgan has been friends with Trump since he won Celebrity Apprentice in 2008. Photograph: Photowire/BEI/Shutterstock

He refers to a swarm of migration through Europe, and defends Trumps comment about wanting women to be punished for having illegal abortions. It would be a pretty logical thing for somebody who believes abortions a crime.

Critics who suspect Morgan will say anything to generate attention might equally seize upon his admission that this weeks controversies are completely connected to the fact that he has a new series of Piers Morgans Life Stories on ITV next week. He is strategising to maximise publicity all the time, he says freely. Of course! Everyone on TV is. Im just better at it than most of them.

Whether or not Morgan would welcome this, the truth is that I nevertheless find him much more nuanced and less cocksure than his public persona or Twitter feed might suggest. The reliably consistent theme in all of his feuds is intolerance of hypocrisy.

So his objection to the womens marches, he explains, is simply this. How does it help the cause for any woman on that march fighting for genuine issues, for equality and everything else, for one of the lead speakers Madonna to talk openly about having had dreams of blowing up the White House? Im not sure why Morgan would take Madonna seriously, when she herself has said she was speaking metaphorically, and he was willing to take Trump at his word last year (he denied he had meant to incite Hillary Clintons assassination during a rally speech). Because if you make a threat like that at an airport, youd be arrested and put in jail. Why should it be a different rule for Madonna? I point out that she wasnt at an airport, but another speakers incest joke about Trumps daughter struck Morgan as similarly offensive.

Ivanka Trump is a mother of three, very hardworking. I know her very well and I felt really incensed on her behalf when the sisterhood decided to be incredibly offensive about her whilst at a rally designed to counter the anti-women rhetoric of the President Donald Trump. Theres a hypocrisy there which I just found ridiculous. If your main issue with Trump is the way that he talks to people, and the language and the belligerence and the bombast and the wording, then I dont think you should be doing the same thing to him.

What drives Morgan quite mad is hypocritical virtue signalling masquerading as political engagement. Ewan McGregor was basically trying to position me as a great woman-hater. So, I decided to just take a look at his own record in this area, and load of interviews he gave about his great friend Roman Polanski, what a fine man he was, how sorry he was that he had to go to prison, blah, blah, blah and Im like, Really? I wonder how the sisterhood who currently have you down as the No 1 hero for womens rights in the world would feel knowing that Roman Polanski admitted his crime, then left the country to avoid justice when he was facing a long prison sentence for raping, drugging and sodomising a 13-year-old girl?

Why does McGregors affection for Polanksi discredit his feminist credentials, but not Morgans for Trump? Trump hasnt been convicted of raping anyone. Look, my position has been consistently, from day one,that I wouldnt vote for him. But I do know him very well, and I would just like to slightly offer a more tempered view of the man that is being described everywhere as the new Hitler and the monster. I just think now hes there, its like Brexit; I voted remain, but Ive always been a glass-half-full person, and Im prepared to have an open dialogue with people like Nigel Farage about how we now maximise the opportunity of Brexit. The same with Trump. I find the hysteria just pointless and absurd and self-defeating and ridiculous. Ive got friends of mine literally losing their minds. And Im like, calm down, please calm down. I know this guy.

Coming from Morgan, who personally wrote the paedophile-loving headline for his McGregor column, this will strike some as a bit rich, but he goes on: Its very important in this extremity of debate, the kind of thing that led to Jo Cox getting killed, to be calm. Isnt Morgan himself an arch professional provocateur? But Im just putting opinions out there. Im a columnist, its my job. Isnt anyone else allowed to hold contentious views? Of course! And coming from a highly opinionated family, Im drawn to people who have opinions and are prepared to argue them.

I would have thought Madonna, who Morgan never tires of attacking, would fall into that category. No, because she has an opinion quota based on this pure ability to shock and offend, which I find pointless, quite cliched and increasingly very nauseating.

Morgan never tires of attacking celebrities such as Hugh Grant or Steve Coogan either, for whining about the press. But all the complaints made by those two actors wouldnt amount to a fraction of Trumps grievances with the mainstream media, of which Morgan with two newspaper columns and three TV shows is unquestionably a member.

I dont particularly consider myself to be MSM. Id probably be more a kind of renegade; Im RMSM, renegade mainstream media. I dont think the mainstream media has ever fully made me a paid-up member of their club.. As he breaks off this line of thought to tweet about his latest Daily Mail column, I suggest hes on a sticky wicket here. OK, alright. But I am afraid that the journalists have to stop whining.

It was an interesting thing for me to discover that my co-host quite often goes home from work and cries Morgan with Susanna Reid at the National Television awards. Photograph: Jeff Spicer/Getty Images

As a fanatical champion of a robust free press, surely he thinks Trump should stop whining? Its a good point, he concedes. My honest answer is I think theyve all got to calm down . I think Trump has to have a more respectful relationship with the media and they have to have it with him.

For all Morgans ferocious rhetoric, he is surprisingly willing to concede points. Id found his defence of employers forcing women to wear heels suspiciously unpersuasive, and the more we talk, the more ground he gives. Im only saying it to keep the debate going, he admits at one point and when I remind him he praised Julia Roberts for going barefoot on the red carpet at Cannes last year, in protest at the festivals insistence that women attending screenings wear heels, for a fleeting second he looks sheepish. I thought that was quite cool, yes. In an interview with the Times last year, he in fact offered up Robertss protest as an example of what real feminism looked like, didnt he? OK, I think thats a fair point.

Real feminism, Morgan maintains, is not about being a man-hating victim but a strong woman. My mother is an incredibly strong, independent woman. My sister is. My grandmother was. I was brought up around incredibly strong, independent women. Im married to a strong, independent woman. I absolutely define myself as a feminist and take issue with people who think Im not, because by the yardstick of what I give to feminism, which is genuine pursuit of equality in all things for women, I think I pass that test, I do. I do, I love women. Ive always been surrounded bywomen who would never dream of being pushed around by men.

This, I suggest, might be the problem. Go on, he says, genuinely interested. Because Im actually on a learning curve here. When ones only ever known strong women, it can be easy to feel exasperated with those who have suffered experiences that make Morgans idea of strength a pretty tall order. It becomes dangerously easy to get angry with women who stay with their abusers, say, and mistake their predicament for weakness.

I get that. I get it. Totally. He thinks for a moment. I take your point. When I hear that Susanna went home and cried after the show, I would like to have known why, but she would see it as weak to tell me and I dont want her to feel that. He thinks again. You remember, we were put together on Good Morning Britain like an arranged marriage, and I think weve just got to know each other a lot better, and she sees a the upside of having these debates about sexism on air in real time, with me perhaps going on a little bit of a journey of discovery.

Morgans crusade against hypocrisy is, of course, somewhat undermined by the fact that he admits to being a total hypocrite himself Of course! All journalists are! For anyone looking for a reliable rule to explain his wild enthusiasms and fierce feuds, the secret, he says, is really quite simple. Im a human being. If people are nice to me, Im nice to them. An afterthought crosses his mind, and he laughs. Donald Trumps actually pretty similar.

Read more: http://ift.tt/2k2tFbF

from Piers Morgan: Im just putting opinions out there. Its my job