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shadowcanine · 14 days ago

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a deep dive into love has won.

before we begin, i’d like to make a disclaimer:

what i did is extremely dangerous, and i do not recommend anybody else taking the steps i did. cults are extremely damaging, and inherently designed to isolate and, in turn, control you. under no circumstances should you seek a cult out for the purpose of ‘’getting in” like i did. i did this purely for informational and research purposes; i know how to keep myself safe and differentiate reality from delusion. do not do what i did. if you made it past the disclaimer, hi :) as always, information will be under the cut. this post is purely for research and educational purposes, and is also extremely long- you’ve been warned.

It's November 30th, 1975. Somewhere in a small town in Kansas, Amy Carlson is born. Her parents divorced when she was young, and she now spends her time inbetween their homes. This didn't stop her success though, as throughout her childhood and teenage years, she was a good student- primarily earning A's and B's. She even worked at McDonald's, where she quickly climbed the corporate ladder, eventually managing her own location. Her employees would describe her as a ''great leader'' and very kind. She would do her best to accommodate them and their needs during her time with McDonald's.

Amy would go on to have 3 children, each with a different father. Her ability to achieve and maintain healthy relationships was lackluster at best, with majority of her relationships ending with claims of abuse or romantic neglect in one way or another.

Somewhere during the mid 2000's, Amy does shrooms. In her words, this was to ''see what all the hype was about.'' She then began to question if this is what the world really was like- and if so, who stole this reality from her?

It's also during this time that Amy develops an interest in ''New Age'' philosophy (New Age refers to a range of spiritual or religious practices of beliefs- it gained it's popularity in America during the 1970's. It's hard to explain what exactly it is, as the entire belief system is quite jumbled and confusing. Imagine closing your eyes while somebody blends a bunch of food, and you're supposed to name everything in the blender. It's essentially impossible.)

During this time, Amy becomes very active on the website ''lightworkers.org'' it was on this website she met ''Amerith WhiteEagle'' who convinces Amy that she is divine; shortly after this, Amy begins to claim to experience paranormal experiences- most notably was a voice telling her she would ‘’one day be President of the United States’’.

It’s late 2007 now, and Amy wastes no time in leaving her third husband, children, and job. She cuts off majority of her family, and proceeds to meet ''WhiteEagle'' in Colorado. It only gets worse from here.

After meeting WhiteEagle in person, him and Amy form a group (or. more accurately, a duo) together. They call themselves the ''Galactic Federation of Light'' (or GFOL). Their first video is posted to YouTube in 2009. They lead this group under the names of ''Mother God'' and ''Father God.'' Most of these videos discussed outlandish topics, starships being an example- and one of the core ‘’beliefs’’ of Love Has Won / GFOL.

The group would then gain their first follower- Miguel Lamboy. It's 2014, and for whatever reason, WhteEagle and Carlson split. Apparently, WhiteEagle had left for another ‘’lightworker’’ he recruited from New York- and Carlson went on to join with Miguel. Miguel was now in charge of the financial aspect of the group, as well as budgeting.

2014 is also when the group really begins to gain momentum, credits of the internet. The group would regularly hop between Colorado, Oregon, California, and Florida between 2014-2018. They eventually settled in Moffat, CO. A quaint small town, where the group claimed to feel ‘’more connected’’ to the Earth. WhiteEagle and Miguel were not the only ‘’Father Gods’’, though- with a long line behind them. Amy was described by ex-members as ‘’never going more than two minutes without a ‘’Father God.’’ ‘’ Jason Castillo would become the final ‘’Father God’’ in 2018.

The group now had between twelve and twenty full-time members who lived with Carlson in Crestone, CO. Crestone has been described by locals as a place where the ‘’veil is thin’’ (ie, you’re closer to the universe there). The team would livestream daily, usually on Youtube, to accomplish their ‘’goals’’. The goals for these livestreams were as follows:

• Recruit more members.

• Encourage and solicit donations.

• Promote ‘’New Age’’ products, as well as vitamin supplements.

The team of Love Has Won regularly advertised something called ‘’etheric surgery’’. It cost $88 per person, and could allegedly ‘’remove sickness’’ and ‘’negative energy’’ from the body. They also sold *colloidal silver, which they claimed could cure COVID-19. (Colloidal silver is known for turning a users skin a ‘’blue-gray’’ tint if consumed in excess. This is called Argyria, and while on it’s own isn’t a major health problem, it doesn’t go away- even if you stop consumption of the silver.*)

Love Has Won would also use these livestreams to push their beliefs. The main belief was that Amy Carlson was the 534th incarnation of Mother God. They believed she was a deity, destined to lead exactly 144,000 believers out of the ‘’superficial reality’’ present in the ‘’3D-world’’ and into a ‘’fifth-dimensional plane of higher existence’’. Amy, believing she was an incarnation, was also apparently quite a few people in her past lives. These are some of the people:

• Mother Earth

• Gaia

• Cleopatra

• Jesus Christ of Nazareth

• Joan of Arc

• Harriet Tubman

• Helena Blavatsky

• Marilyn Monroe

• The mother of Elvis Presley

Amy claimed to have full memory of these past lives, including Jesus’ crucifixion. Allegedly, she could also ‘’produce miracles, kind of like Jesus.’’

In order to accomplish her goals of leading believers out of 3D world, Amy claimed she needed to communicate with ‘’The Galactics.’’

The Galactics were an ‘’etheric team’’ of spiritual ambassadors, largely made up of celebrities who have died. This team included Robin Williams (the main ambassador), Patrick Swayze, John Lennon (the command of the main starship), Whitney Houston, Prince, Steve Irwin, Carrie Fisher, Rodney Dangerfield, Tupac Shakur, Chris Farley, David Bowie, Gene Wilder, and Michael Jackson. Among this etheric team were also the still alive Donald Trump and Carol Burnett. Amy claimed the Count of St. Germain was also helping her.

One of the stories Amy frequently told was one of her ‘’past.’’ In this past, she lived in Lemuria (a continent proposed in 1864, which was theorized to have sank beneath the Indian Ocean) and Trump was her father. An obscure technology existed, but the details of what this item did are unclear. The theft of this item, however, caused an ‘’explosion that sank Atlantis.’’ While Amy (Mother God) was able to save the technology, she was not fully ready to ascend to the ‘’fifth-dimension’’ because humanity was not ready. As a result, she ‘’continued to return to Earth in human form.’’

The original LoveHasWon website was removed, but while it was still up, it claimed that Amy was a ‘’spritiual surgeon.’’ She would work ‘’multidimensionally’’ to operate on people’s bodies and cure whatever they may be suffering with. Allegedly, Amy the (former) McDonald’s Manager, had cured cancer, Lyme disease, addiction, suicidal thoughts, removed brain tumors, and ‘’cured’’ Autism. What a portfolio.

Now, before we move on, it’s time for the good part of this post. In an effort to make the most accurate and in-depth Love Has Won post, I came to the conclusion that the best way to get into the minds of these individuals was to let them into mine. As such, I spent a few days posing as an interested ‘’recruit.’’ This included partaking in multiple video calls with the team, participating in livestreams, and researching their ‘’sources.’’ If you’d like a simple answer; yes, I did ‘’join’’ a cult to make a Tumblr post about it.

It’s also worth mentioning that even though my involvement with this group was fairly surface level, it has kind of fucked with my head a bit. I feel extremely negatively about these individuals, and the interview was a shit show marketing tactic clearly geared to seek out mentally ill individuals in order to manipulate them into joining. I’ve attempted to make this section as informative as possible, but the actual phone call was incredibly confusing. I promise I’m doing the best I can in this regard- there’s only so many ways you can turn pure propaganda into an informative piece. The chamber is spun dry. Regardless, here’s a detailed description of the phone call- as well as some thoughts I simply couldn’t hold back regarding it.

The interview itself was pretty confusing, starting off with who we’ll call ‘’Moon’’ calling me out of nowhere at 11:38PM. It was a video call, and while my webcam was on, the room was dimly lit. Moon insisted I turn on a light, and upon me doing so, said I was ‘’beautifully made by Mother and Father of all creation.’’ It was extremely uncomfortable. The call then progressed with Moon asking me how I ‘’discovered’’ ‘Mother’’ and ‘’Father’’ God. I told her I discovered them through the HBO doc, and claimed their ‘’message really resonated with me.’’ This would open the door to the most uncomfortable hour and a half phone call I have ever had.

‘’Moon’’ went on to explain how the group’s main focus is ‘’coming home’’ which refers to being in the physical presence of ‘’Mother and Father.’’ I said ‘’wow, that’s really awesome!’’ and I was then informed that ‘’Father’’ had actually created the word ‘’awesome’’ by combining ‘’awe’’ and ‘’sum’’ to describe ‘’Mother.’’

(After the interview, it was pointed out to me that this may be referring to being in a ‘’state of awe’’, and considering this is a cult we’re talking about, I have reason to believe that suggestion is correct.)

‘’Coming home’’ does not just refer to being in their physical presence, however, as it also apparently about exploring our talents and skills, and where ‘’energy is the greatest.’’ I won’t put you all through the mental gymnastics I had to do to figure out what this all meant, so I’ll explain it like this:

Imagine you volunteer at a soup kitchen. It’s a good deed, and it helps your community, but does it help anybody outside of your town? No. You volunteering at a soup kitchen will not create a ‘’ripple affect’’ of energy. ‘’Coming home’’, however, will. Because being in the physical presence of ‘’Mother’’ and ‘’Father’’ is where positive energy is abundant, it will allegedly flow out of ‘’home’’ and to the rest of the world. This is essentially Love Has Won weaponizing a savior complex, with the implications being the world cannot be happy, or positive, or good, if you yourself do not ‘’come home.’’

I was also informed that during the filming of HBO’s documentary ‘’Love Has Won: The Cult of Mother God’’, Love Has Won attempted to get the crew to stay with them for three months. They wanted them to ‘’see the miracles in action’’ and believing anybody who came into contact with Mother and Father would immediately know they were ‘’god,’’ they deemed it important to have HBO stay. HBO did not- instead staying for 2 ½ days to wrap up interviews and research before leaving.

My contact, Moon, also told me that she had been interviewed by HBO, though her clips were cut from the documentary. The only image of her in the documentary is a photo where she’s in the background, and only the back of her is visible. Moon claims to not know why she was cut from the documentary, theorizing it was done for one of the following reasons (taken directly from the interview and unedited):

‘’News are all about selling fear. Media is all about selling fear and anger. Mother and Father are about evolving from our past lives into this life- this life is our last lifetime to recognize mom and dad. Through the souls journey of a culmination of experiences and conditioning, it leads them to mom and dad. If a person is unable to accept constructive feedback from Mother and Father, they leave.’’

So, not really an answer to me asking why she was cut from the documentary, but beggars can’t be choosers I suppose. My personal belief is that she was too into it to be in the documentary. Everybody else interviewed, with the exception of Father God, had left the cult. Moon had not, and I’m not sure if pure cult propaganda is what HBO wants on their network.

Moon also shared with me that she had lived with Mother and Father for quite some time, before and after the ‘’ascension.’’ She had to return to Asia to ‘’finish up some stuff’’ but did not elaborate on what ‘’stuff’’ was. She plans to return ‘’home’’ when she is able to do so.

I did my best to press Moon into giving me a concise answer about what exactly Love Has Won believes in, but she herself seemed confused on what exactly that entailed. She didn’t elaborate on many points, but I’ll do my best to explain what I was told.

Love Has Won believes that ‘’Mother’’ and ‘’Father’’ are here to provide us with joy, abundance, and health. They can heal anything, and have created everything. They are strictly against-hate, and believe humanity cannot progress via literature alone. We must go out and experience things, as experiences are what raise the soul ‘’higher and higher.’’

I also did ask about the 2020 Hawaii incident*, and opinions on it seem to be jumbled. Some members were angry, but some just believed it was a waste of time.

*(In August of 2020, LHW briefly relocated to Hawaii, specifically the island of Kauai. They believed they needed to be in Hawaii in order for Mother God to ascend. They were met with extreme backlash from locals after Amy claimed to be the Hawaiian volcano goddess Pele. Protests outside of the home was LHW was in lasted for days, and included protesters lighting driftwood fires and chanting Hawaiian prayers around the home. Video footage provided showed eggs and rocks being thrown at the rented home, as well as the windows of the home and SUV parked in the driveway being broken in. Kauai’s mayor, Derek Kawakami, negotiated with Love Has Won to depart the island. They flew to Kahului Airport on Maiu, and in September of 2020, the group returned to Colorado.)

As of 2024, Love Has Won believes the protests in Hawaii were ‘’pointless’’ stating during the interview:

‘’If you don’t believe Mother God is who she says, why don’t you just ignore us? Why attack us?’’

I was also informed that their ‘’teachings’’ can be found through their songs on YouTube, but upon investigation, most of these songs are just covers. Very few of them are original work, and, as such, very few contain any sort of meaningful information regarding the groups teachings.

I was then asked by Moon why people hated Jesus, which seemed redundant to the conversation. I’d include context as to why I was asked this, but there isn’t any. She just randomly said it. The conversation is as follows:

Moon: ‘’Why did people hate Jesus?’’

‘’Huh?’’

Moon: ‘’Do you know why?’’

‘’They hated Jesus because he spoke the truth?’’

Moon: ‘’Exactly. They couldn’t- they couldn’t fathom that Jesus could heal on the spot, and that’s what Mom and Dad are- they can heal a person on the spot.’’

─── ･｡ﾟ☆: *.☽ .* :☆ﾟ. ───

I had previously made an excuse that my memory was bad, and asked if I could take notes. During the end of the interview, I apologized again for the typing sounds and how many notes I had to take, saying, ‘’I’m a bit stupid, sorry.’’ Moon replied with an incredibly off-putting statement, but had to quickly after to start her day.

‘’You are beautifully, beautifully crafted by Mom and Dad.’’

Now, as you’re reading this, it may be hard to understand how exactly Love Has Won is a cult. Sure, they’re clearly unstable, but is it really a cult? To answer that, you have to know what a cult is. This section is mildly lengthy, and while I’m sure many of you have the knowledge to understand this is a cult, some may still be confused or feeling unsure.

Cult Education Institute has a list of warning signs, which we’ll be going over and explaining how each one applies to Love Has won, and therefore proving it is, indeed, a cult.

Some warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader are the following:

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

Love Has Won, specifically Amy Carlson, is known for their lack out of accountability. If any members were to speak up about these things, it created an unsafe environment for the rest of them. There’s one instance of ‘’Father God’’ locking members outside in the Colorado winter, and taking away their heater. This is because they ‘’disrespected Mother.’’

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

Members of Love Has Won are expected to fully accept Mother and Father god as the creators of everything- those who start to question whether or not this is real are kicked from the group, and told to ‘’come back when they know better.’’

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

Miguel Lamboy was the sole member in charge of finances. Other members never saw this money, but were expected to constantly contribute to the costs and living expenses of the group. Members were not allowed to use their own money to buy food for two main reasons.

a) Food would clog your body, preventing you from absorbing the teachings of Mother and receiving her energy.

b) Members buying food instead of donating meant less money for the group overall, which was a concept Father and Mother couldn’t stomach.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil concspiracies and persecution.

Love Has Won views those who hold disdain to Mother and Father, or those who refuse to accept them as the Creators of Everything, as ‘’whores.’’ They believe these people were trying to prevent Amy’s ascension, which, in their eyes, is considered persecution.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

In the interview, Moon stated that the only people to leave the team were those incapable of accepting constructive criticism. They were ‘’blinded by hate’’ and unable to ‘’get over themselves’’ and accept Mother and Father’s criticism.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similiar pattern of grievances.

Nearly every ex-member of Love Has Won tells the same story;

‘’Mother God’’ was constantly drunk or high, or some combination of the two. Nights would be spent listening to domestic disputes between Mother and Father, and watching Mother hit Father on numerous occasions. All members share a pattern of claiming financial manipulation and abuse at the hands of Love Has Won. They were not allowed to use their money on themselves, and were pressured into giving what money they did have back into the cult.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

Love Has Won - Jason (Father God)’s Abusive Side

Love Has Won: The Cult of Mother God

I was in LHW in 2018 - parts one and two.

Love Has Won Members Defending Cat Abuse

8. Followers feel they can never be ‘’good enough’’.

Members share similar claims of doing anything they could to have the chance to be close to ‘’Mother God.’’ One ex-member, Hope, would clean the house from top to bottom- everyday. The only acknowledgement she got from this was an offhanded comment Amy made to a friend. They constantly try to do everything they can to be in her good graces; waiting on her every beckon call, allowing her to do nothing while they handle everything, etc.

9. The group/leader is always right.

Questioning ‘’Mother God’’ would result in being screamed at, or, as it happened to a group of members, locked outside in the Colorado winter all night with no heater. If you were to so much as imply that Amy may not be god, you would be removed from the team and sent on your way- sans any money you may have given, or any resources to help you get home.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing ‘’truth’’ or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable of credible.

Team members were encouraged to talk to Amy about any sort of problems they were having, or even any ones that may have occurred during childhood. For all intensive purposes, this would be considered traumabonding- as Amy would help the team through these issues, making them think she was the only one that could help, and then pick them apart if they weren’t ‘’good enough.’’ Love Has Won is anti-therapy, anti-church, and anti-physical-family. Team members were encouraged to rely solely on Mother and Father. If their physical family disagreed with the practices of Love Has Won, the team was told by Miguel to “cut them off or leave.”

─── ･｡ﾟ☆: *.☽ .* :☆ﾟ. ───

“Okay, but if I’m not in a cult, how do I know if someone else is?”

There’s also a list of warning signs regarding people involved with a potential cult, which we’ll go over so you can compare this list to the actions of Love Has Won members. This is just the list, no more explanation paragraphs about how it’s a cult, don’t worry.

1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred.

(important note: majority of LHW team members were given “godly” names. while in the cult, they went by the “godly” names as opposed to their birth names.)

3. Whenever the group/leader is critized or questioned it is charactered as ‘’persecution’’.

4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independent or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

(see: amy’s cat abuse + LHW locking children in closets when they were overwhelmed from the noise of the home)

10. Former followers are at–best considered negative. At worst, evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

In September of 2020, shortly after the group returned to Colorado, it had been stated that Amy was in extremely poor health- being paralyzed from the waist down. Love Has Won still hosted their daily livestreams, but those now included scenes of Amy having to be picked up and carried to bed, unable to walk on her own. According to Amy herself, she had cancer- though it’s not confirmed how accurate this statement is, and autopsy reports make no mention of this claim, or anything alluding to it being true.

In early April of 2021, Love Has Won was located in an RV park in Mount Shasta, CA. They were asked to leave due to overcrowding. In the weeks leading up to her death, numerous wellness checks were called for Amy, usually being called in by her sister, or mother, who would watch the streams. Each time the police arrived to preform these wellness checks, Love Has Won claimed Amy wasn’t home.

Amy was last seen alive by somebody not affiliated with Love Has Won on April 10th, 2021.

Now, it’s worth mentioning that the team of Love Has Won knew Amy was dying- but that’s not how they saw it. Love Has Won was convinced that a starship, piloted by Robin Williams, would come to pick Amy up and take her to ‘’ascend’’ to the 5D plane.

At Amy’s request, the group travelled to Ashland, Oregon- where they stayed at Callahan’s Mountain Lodge. According to two Love Has Won members, Amy had asked to be taken to the hospital, but the team refused, claiming:

‘’Mom doesn’t know what she’s talking about- she would never set foot in a 3D hospital. That’s a death sentence.’’

While in Ashland, Amy lost all motor control, and required around the clock help for daily tasks. At an unknown date, Amy passed away in the room of Callahan’s Mountain Lodge. When staff became suspicious, her body was transported to the Mount Hood National Forest. The group camped there, with ‘’Father God’’ sharing a tent with Amy’s corpse. They were waiting for the ‘’Galactic’’ beings to come and retrieve her body, but ‘’Father God’’ claimed he heard a calling to move her body. As a result, Love Has Won drove her body back to the group’s home in Crestone, Colorado- where Miguel, the one in charge of finances, called the police to report that the group had brought Amy’s body into his home and were staying there without permission.

Amy’s body was found- mummified, and in a sleeping bag. She was wrapped in christmas lights, and her face was covered in glitter. Her eyes were missing due to the decomposition. Police described the findings as a ‘’makeshift shrine.’’

The Galactics never came.

After Amy’s death, an autopsy was done. Her autospy was released in December of 2021, and states her cause of death as the following:

‘’Global decline in the setting of alcohol abuse, anorexia, and chronic colloidal silver ingestion.’’

The autopsy found no proof to substantiate Amy’s claims that she had cancer.

Seven members of Love Has Won would have charges brought against them for child abuse, abuse of a corpse, tampering with deceased human remains, and false imprisonment. If convicted, they would have been facing around 12 years at the lowest. The charges were later dropped for the following reasons:

• It happened in Colorado. In Colorado, you cannot be charged with both ‘’abuse of a corpse’’ and ‘’tampering with deceased human remains’’ if both charges arose from a single incident.

• Amy’s corpse showed no signs of being tampered with in a malicious way- and for being a corpse found in a makeshift shrine, was in decent condition. It’s clear her body was respected after her death.

• The prosecutor told the judge he thought the constitionality would be in question regarding abuse of a corpse involving Carlson’s body decorations.

Despite the house and group’s bank accounts both being in Miguel’s name, he faced no charges. He did, however, empty the bank accounts, totaling $333,000. He has not been heard from by the group since April 28th, 2021, and news outlets have failed to locate him. HBO did locate him, but he refused to participate in the documentary.

Amy Carlson’s remains were returned to her family.

As of 2024, Love Has Won is still active. Father God now claims to share a body with Mother, with some ‘’sources’’ claiming to have seen Mother’s face ‘’on top’’ of Father’s face, and heard them both speaking. They still believe that Mother will return, and are still trying to recruit new team members.

Their website states that they have some pretty ambitious goals. Apparently, Father is asking for donations to build a school where children can learn about their ‘’true’’ parents. He is also asking for donations for a hotel room, with the tagline ‘’RESPECT GOD WITH A HOTEL STAY.’’

On top of these, he plans to build a house for the team to live in. Where he plans to acquire this money? We may never know. After the HBO documentary, they seem to struggle quite a bit with recruitment. Any Google search of their name will bring up hundreds of articles, documentaries, and videos telling you the same thing I am: Love Has Won is a dangerous cult.

They still are very active online, having accounts on nearly every mainstream social media platform- though most have been banned or terminated by site moderators. If you look for it, you’ll find it. Don’t let it find you, though. I’d really rather not see you guys on a documentary six years down the line. Thanks.

Some members never left, though. The group remains active, and most likely will for the foreseeable future. Unless, of course, the starship comes to take them to the fifth dimensional plane.

Overall, it’s a mindfuck. They target people already struggling with addiction, telling them that psychedelics and alcohol are ‘’medicine’’ if used properly. Love Has Won affirms other people’s delusions, and if you know anything about people who suffer from delusions, you know they tend to stick around the people who affirm what they believe.

I think Amy’s story is a bit sad, though. I do believe at some point she realized how wrong she was, but it was too late. The team would convince her she really was Mother God whenever she expressed these thoughts- she did invite her family to come visit her when she was dying. Upon her daughter writing a strongly worded email, Amy simply replied something to the effect of ‘’You look just like me. I love you, feel free to come visit me in Hawaii anytime.’’

None of her family showed up, though. Probably as a direct result of the way she treated them. She abandoned her child, and had minimal contact with her sister and mother. At the end of the day, Amy Carlson was an abusive cult leader at best, but it’s still hard not to mourn who she could have been had she gotten proper help. She begged to go to a hospital, they refused. I think if things would have played out differently in Amy’s first relationship, none of this would have had happened. But hey, what do I know?

Anyways, this post has been really draining for me. It’s taken me three days to write it, and that’s not including the weeks of research I had to do, and the days and nights I had to spend communicating with these lunatics. This post will be queued, so whenever you see this, assume I’m sleeping for the first time in days.

I’d like to make a special thank you to the following people for helping me out with this:

@silliesthumanalive for helping me analyze the transcript of the interview

@goredawg for letting me complain about how exhausting it was, and letting me ramble whenever I found something new out.

Anyways, I hope you all enjoyed reading, and I know this was really long- but I’d rather have the information available. I’m sure at least one person will learn something, whether it be about identifying cults, or simply realizing how fucking insane these people were and continue to be.

TLDR; Amy Carlson did shrooms in the early 2000s. Then became convinced she was God, and the reincarnate of hundreds of celebrities. Apparently, managers at McDonalds can become Jesus. Got people to follow her message, and ended up dying as a direct result from the message she spread. Don't join a cult, kids- and don't try to create one, either.

─── ･｡ﾟ☆: *.☽ .* :☆ﾟ. ───

# I hope none of you guys get kidnapped by the John Lennon starship and taken to the fifth dimensional plane. All complaining on my end aside, I’d be lying if I said this wasn’t kind of fun to work on. Thanks for reading! :)

# Also, I apologize for how the text was broken up. Normally I’d keep it somewhat clumped together and just use a divider, but there’s so much text here, I feel like this formatting is significantly easier to digest.

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suguru-getos · 9 months ago

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Fleeting - Part I

Summary: Broken and bruised, is what your heart feels after losing the love of your life - Geto Suguru, in the hands of someone you barely know. Isn't it your duty to have Gojo Satoru dead at your feet?

Author's Note: Gosh TIS is ANGSTY>!!! I almost cried while writing this part :((

Chapter Summary: You have been told that Suguru is no more, how you cope up can be utterly frightening when there's nothing else to lose anymore.

You stood at the kitchen door, frozen, numb, eyes widened with the sheer panic of everything that befell. The environment around you just felt akin to pure desolation, the very marrow of your bone shattered, broken apart in endless pieces and it was impossible to bring you back. The endless void that Suguru created in your life, the deteriorating feeling of emptiness, hollowing you, sucking your soul up. "Where is he?" You managed to fight from the endless pit of anxiety that grew like a black hole. Mimiko and Nanako are scared to meet your gaze, the woman who's not much older than them but they still consider her as the epitome of love. For both of them, and, their precious Geto Sama.

Your eyes are not allowing the pent-up grief to escape, not a tear shall be shed for this. Never will. You can't wash off all the feelings of being notoriously tainted by Suguru's intensity, by his love. Your mind isn't thinking straight, you want answers, need answers. "I asked a question, Miguel." You asked someone else in the 'Family' that cherished you as much as they cherished Geto. "Please.." Manami, the woman who helped him do his due-diligence being a Cult leader cried out. She knows you will break apart, and they are not sure if they can handle a living corpse after losing Suguru-chan.

"Where is Sugu?" You asked again, desperation of clutching for the fleeting hope of him returning back, evidently smiling with his ever-so-loving, signature smile and warmth ensuing with his hugs. He couldn't… he shouldn't. HE COULDN'T!

"Y/N Sama" Nanako sniffled, running to you and hugging you tightly, loud sobs and wails of torment echoed the room as she fell to her knees. As if she's apologizing. Why is she apologizing? Where is Suguru? You just asked a simple question - where is Geto Suguru? The love of your life, the biggest piece of your heart, the reason of you existing and not dead at your own actions all those years ago.

"Y/N Sama- please don't ask this, you know he's gone… he said he would be the first to come home didn't he?"

You want to kill everyone in this room, you want to kill every sorcerer to exist, you want to kill yourself.

He did… he did promise you. Hugged you close and whispered how grateful he is to have you, over and over and over and over and over and over and-

Why did he have to leave you forever?

Why could he not let his heart beat for you?

"This- is mine." The flashback of Suguru's silky voice haunts you, as his looming, large hands point at the left side of your chest. "You have my heart, and I, have yours." He smiled, holding your hand and softly placing it on his naked chest. "So if this stops working -" He nuzzles against your chest, "Which it would never, because my heart would never give up on you… but if it does, know I've failed to protect you as a man."

"Gosh, so intense and for what" You push him away, rolling your eyes. "Both our hearts wouldn't stop working. You know why? Because - in this world, you bring out a smile in me."

Suguru was right, if his heart was in you - he didn’t fail to protect you, but you did. You're all alone now, the only shred of comfort if ever, in the grotesque way your heart is tattered apart, is the words of Suguru where he calls that 'his heart'. You know that's not true, you know better. Still, what else could you do?

You can't think of anything else, can't speak, can't eat. Time is a construct when it's your other half that you’ve lost.

You don't even remember that a week has passed with you staring at the wall, sleeping in the same bed that has the scent of your person.. fleeting… just like him.

You cry on the eighth day, you roar, you scream, you let the world know that you're here. Even if Geto Suguru is not, you're here.

What's worse than a lion? The king of the jungle, the apex predator?

An injured lion.

You.

All you can think of is how to make the ache in your heart settle, how to breathe again. Or perhaps, how to be worthy of death that you can grant yourself and re-unite with Suguru. What would it take to meet him again…

You drag yourself up from the bed, going to his closet and taking his perfume out, the whisking sound of it spraying all over echoes as you close your eyes, pumping it over and over and over and over and over- you can't afford to not smell like your lover. You are losing your mind- why doesn't everyone else die? Who killed him-

Right, who killed Suguru Geto?

Frantically, tear-stained and in an absolute mess, you opened the door. Stunned to see 'everyone' standing outside. You know why they were there, your screams and sobs were unimaginably painful. You were crying out in utter devastating, soul churning pain after all. None of them knew how to console you after all. How would you tell someone to be okay after they lose the light of their life?

"Who killed him?" You asked the question, looking at everyone.

"Gojo Satoru." Larue responded.

"Gojo Satoru.." You repeated, as if writing his name in red in your broken, bleeding heart. Writing his name in… blood red.

"His best friend?" You snorted, the denial turning you furious and unimaginably dangerous.

"We have a new mission, my family." You smiled. If it's revenge that can keep you alive, so be it.

#geto suguru #geto x reader #gojo satoru #gojo x reader #jjk #jujutsu kaisen #jjk x reader #jujutsu kaisen x reader #jjk angst #gojo angst #geto angst #stsg #satosugu

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night-night-stories-before-bed · 3 months ago

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Guess who is finally back! Yeah me. I can finally write once more. I still have some headaches from the flu, but at last, nothing else to bother me. For now. I hope I won't get my laryngitis this year.

So, like I promised I am back again with a quiz for y'all! I have started working on not 5 but 6 stories and I want your help to decide what order I should post them!

Here are the stories;

- Tony Stark with a villain!Male!Reader who use magic and is a cult leader Lovecraftian style, slow burn with Tony losing his grip and joining the reader on the dark side 😈

- Simon “Ghost” Riley/Male Reader in which Reader welcome Simon to his farm after Simon has finished his missions because Simon has no one. Through the nightmare and bad memories of Ghost they fall for each other.

- Gabriel Agreste/Male!Reader Love/Hate relationship with implied smut

- The third part of my Don’t Take My Sunshine Away

- Miles Morales & Mentor!Male!Reader with implied Tony/Male Reader in which reader from another universe became Miles’ new mentor, making Peter Jealous and not letting Miguel lay hands on Miles.

- Gojo Satoru/Male!Reader with a bit of smut because I am still in denial that my gorgeous king is Gojover :(

And yeah, they are all Male!Reader because we don't have enough of them <3

#male reader #x male reader #x reader #fanfic #angst #batman #jjk #miraculous ladybug #marvel #dcu #gojo satoru x male reader #batman x male reader #tony stark x male reader #gabriel agreste x male reader #Simon ghost Riley x male reader

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celestie0 · 7 months ago

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🪷 Jjk0 is proof that angry, jealous gojo is the hottest version of gojo. Dude was so pissed about geto and Miguel that he beat the daylights out of the dude for no reason except for a kfc breakup..#need

I love pathetic men (that are otherwise chill and composed) so damn much esp when the guy is shameless about their jealousy and desperation. Like ok Mr zestycles..what did you say to your cult leader ex boyfriend that made him blush and giggle right after he said he couldn't truly smile in this world?? 🤨

Just imagine ihm gojo (I know I'm obsessed with him but he's closer in age to canon gojo LOL which is why this scenario) just getting aggy as hell over someone being uncomfortably close to you..grown ass man bitching about it like... ur 36!! cock and balls out NEOWWWW👖📴🍆🫴🏼🍦😋

NO SRS bc i love silly boy gojo sm i want to kiss him but when he’s serious n locked in to get shit done n angry n inconvenienced n irritated n jealousssss 😓😓😖😖😪😪😮‍💨😮‍💨🤧🤧😵‍💫😵‍💫……he’s SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO yea lilypad anon i trust u get the vibe xD

like i dunno it’s like when u piss of the chill person n a light switches on in them n you’re like 😳…yo who’s this new guy…and where have my panties gone. but also now that i think about it gojo is 100% the type to go “no more mr nice guy” before beating the living daylights outta someone ✋🏼😭 and it’d make me wanna suck his dick 😔😕 #notproudofit

MR ZESTYCLES HAS ME ROLLING LMFAOOO

ok yes it is so canon that he took out his breakup angst on miguel 😭😭 poor dude caught SO many strays just bc a zesty slenderman who is also unfortunately the strongest person in the world couldn’t handle being broken up with by his big beautiful goth bf over TEN YEARS AGO ✋🏼😔 justice for miguel fr

also PLS ihm gojo is mr zestycles galore n pretty decently composed most of the time but i can’t wait to write the moments where he loses his marbles bc he can have a temper for sure ✋🏼😭 esp if someone fucks up or disappoints him lol i mean it’s giving suburban cool dad that’s super chill but when he flips you just KNOW you’ve done goofed up 😓😨……………but imagine the sex tho 🤭🤭🤭

#every day i stray further from kickoff gojo #☹️☹️☹️#bc i just be thinking of ihm gojo all day #i USED to think of kickoff gojo all day #omg i miss him :( my first baby #SOBS #im on my period rn i think im just having emotional mood swing xD #but i’m literally tearing up thinking about kickoff gojo being sad i am neglecting him #OMG OUCH :(#im going insane lol #i love them both the same 🥺#idk where this even came from lol #in holy matriphony #asks #🪷 anon #[queued post]

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din-skywalker · 2 years ago

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It's really difficult to be in the tags because the amount of opinions I've see about how Mig is using Spider society as some kind of death cult like this idea not only is boring and immensely reaching, is also straight up racist

Like everyone loves nuance until the brown mexican guy is the antagonist then suddenly he is the leader of a death cult praying on the other spider's vulnerabilities?

Everyone into this idea pls use your brain cells and think why you think that

god i know it's horrible. like. it was almost automatic for some people to think this. and it sucks that some of them don't reveal realize it's like.. bad? miguel doesn't have a cult. it's not a cult. it's NOT A CULT!!!!!!!!!!!

...but he does have an occult following in the comics that he hates fun fact

#wow i talk #ask #miguel o'hara #spider man #spider man 2099 #spider man across the spider verse #across the spiderverse #atsc

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dalekofchaos · 3 months ago

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Spider-Man and the Defenders. Wilson Fisk is free, not only that but the Hand is trying to seize power in NYC. It's up to SPider-Man, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage and Iron Fist to stop this threat.

The Avengers finally return to NYC and get off their fucking asses after all this time requests Spider-Man's help against Kang the Conqueror(this time not played by an abuser) Loki or even better, the Masters of Evil ran by Norman Osborn, Doctor Doom, Loki, Red Skull, The Leader, and The Mandarin

My Punisher pitch:

Imagine if we get these Punisher challenges.

Peter gets word that The Punisher is in town and set up a bunch of hits on mob bosses and their lieutenants. Much like the Black Cat stakeout missions and Taskmaster challenges, Peter has to pinpoint where Frank is stop him from executing his victims and stop him.

Ideally, I'd love a callback to Punisher and Spider-Man's firs interaction. Being hired to kill him and realizing what a mistake it could've been. "Don't make me make that mistake. Stay out of my way."

It all leads to a boss fight against The Punisher.

Make it clear that what the Punisher is doing is wrong.

Peter calling Frank out on his bullshit and saying "you're just a guy who uses his family's name as an excuse to be a murderer". JJJ calling him a murderer that gets innocent people killed in his one man war on crime. Danika being absolutely repulsed by the Punisher's existence. Then we get a limited time third podcast. The Microchipcast. aka Microchip being the only pro-Punisher voice justifiying his actions and blaming Spider-Man for letting them all for walking alive.

The Spiderverse was already teased, so let's run with it.

Okay, not a full on Clone Saga. Just something that gives us Jackal, Ben and Kaine.

Not sure on the specifics. Baxter Building is already there, want to see Peter and Reed do science together and see Peter and Johnny's unmitigated gayness

Something's happened to Peter. His powers begin to evolve and he doesn't know what to do. He seeks help from the X-Men. His unforeseen mutation not only gets him the help from the X-Men, but the attention of Magneto. Peter fully transforms into Man-Spider and for a brief moment, you get to play as the X-Men while Miles administers the cure.

Deacon Frost comes to NYC and attacks Dr Morgan Michaels. Dr Michaels then tries to research a cure with Spider-Man's help. However it's too late. Dr Michaels becomes Morbius, the living Vampire. This gains the attention of Blade. Blade hunts Morbius, Spider-Man fights him, Spider-Man fights Morbius while trying to help him and then the three teams up to fight Frost.

We've seen the Sanctorum, we could see Baron Mordo leading the "Cult of Dormammu" causing chaos while Mordo is planning a mass sacrifice to unleash Dormammu upon the world.(pretty much the same plot from SMA arc, but with no Fox censorship)

Don't care about the context, I just wanna see Spider-Man and Johnny Blaze team up to kick Mephisto's ass

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jellsrants · 1 year ago

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The Spider… Cult? A not-so-in-depth analysis

Thanks @0luna123 for the idea

After the user credited above mentioned that someone should do a cult analysis when reblogging one of my posts I just knew I had to do it. After all, this is an incredibly interesting angle (and, the more I found out about how to identify a cult, more plausible).

I mostly used information from this page, and will be basing this post on the information it provides. It’s an interesting and light read, so I highly recommend checking it out for yourself, even if just for fun. You know, the kind of fun when you want to read about cults.

Let’s begin by checking off boxes of the characteristics of a cult.

A charismatic leader - check! Miguel is undoubtedly the leader of Spider Society (jury is still out on charismatic, but considering the fandom’s response… well….). He is considered incredibly smart and capable, and is at least assumed to have created and be in control of all of the important technology in the Spider Society.

Ideological purity - check! Members of the Spider Society are, in fact, discouraged from questioning the validity of the “canon event” theory, and are punished if they do (and I’m not talking about Miles right now, I’m talking about Gwen being kicked out and disconnected for trying to go against the grain)

Conformity and control - check! Miguel is able to control the watches that he gives his followers, and use those watches as means to communicate, spy, analyze. He controls where they are allowed to go too. It is reinforced by regular members, and especially by his ‘close circle’ (even against other members of the circle)

Mind altering practices - nope! At least not that I’ve noticed when watching the movie. Unless, of course, those burgers with Miguel on them contain something sinister…

Isolation and love-bombing - check? Half-check? Well, at least for one member - Gwen. Though we don’t get to see much of how other people get indoctrinated, grabbing her from an incredibly stressful situation at an incredibly vulnerable state and promising safety and community… seems like that flag starts looking a bit red

Us-vs-Them mentality - check! Gwen quite literally describes the Spider Society as an elite society that is very desirable to join, even though technically there shouldn’t be a reason a Spider-Person would not qualify.

Apocalyptic Thinking - kind of check? Half-check once again. The members of the Spider-Society are not preparing for an inevitable apocalypse, but instead are preventing signs of one. Though, their methods and even the truthfulness behind what they are doing (or not doing) is under a big question.

Time and energy - check! The members of the Spider Society contribute a lot of their time and energy serving the unknown (or barely known) purposes imposed by Miguel. Sometimes their lives are put on the line, too.

That’s about a 6/8 score! And between that and the general sense of totalitarianism present, I feel as though at least a conversation on whether or not the Spider Society is simply a non-religious cult is a conversation that would be very interesting to have.

#fandom rant #into the spiderverse #across the spiderverse #spiderman #miguel o'hara #gwen stacy #miles morales #tw cult

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raccoonfallsharder · 1 year ago

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heyyy chip anon again ( except this time chip anon is eating chicken nuggets so ….. chicken nugget anon ??? )

okay anyways *crosses legs very professionally*

opinions on miguel o’hara ???? he is my #2 babygirl rn ( nobody tops rocket ) and i need to know my fav author’s pov on him

sorry if this is like - annoying - i’m gonna be 100% straight up i literally have nothing better to do rn , so , why not ask your opinions on miguel o’hara ?

you’ll always be chip nonnie to me baby (unless you’re requesting a name change, which i would of course honor) ♡ and thank you for the compliment you are so fuckin sweet

*crosses legs significantly less professionally because we’re talking about miguel o’hara*

where to begin

miguel o’hara is hot and there is a lot of super-steamy fanfiction about him from so many amazing writers. like, ur girl dae is consuming a LOT of it. love a fictional dude with a ridiculously stupid 8:1 shoulder-to-waist ratio (the size kink is real). and that VOICE.

and yet. miggy is absolutely someone who should be my (fictional) type, at least based on my history. but somehow… he’s very low on my list in general

i’m not sure why (though i have a list of possibilities, i haven’t exactly thought critically about this before). i suspect it has something to do with the way we deal with trauma. i can feel a lot more empathy for someone who turns their unhealthy coping mechanisms inward versus someone who turns them outward. my boy miggy trying to bend the multiverse to his will & manipulate/control a league of spiders just doesn’t get my emotional motor running

(actually the more i think about this the more i’m like “is miggy a cult leader???”)

it may also have to do with the fact that all my big sister energy (and there is a LOT, surprising no-one) is fully-activated in defense of miles morales. miguel o’hara hurt the baby

THAT SAID i am open to being convinced. what makes him rank an IMPRESSIVE #2 slot on the babygirl list???? is there any fanfiction you recommend that might sway me??

#rfh asks #chip nonnie #miguel o'hara

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twentyfivemiceinatrenchcoat · 10 months ago

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jjk chapter 254 spoilers under the cut !!

WHAT A FUN CHAPTER it was nice to see kusakabe get his moment….. even if it was short-lived :’3 HE’S FINEEEE GUYS DW look at this panel. look how sick it is. you think this is the kinda guy to go down like that??? kusakabe is a like a cockroach he could survive a nuclear bomb…. trust…..

but no i !!!!! loved. his thoughts abt yaga T_T how kusakabe really is just a decent guy once you get down to it. he owes yaga a debt but it’s less of a debt and more of a deep respect… he tells himself that yaga is dead so it doesn’t matter but he still imagines yaga’s sad expression and still latches on to what he would’ve wanted. he cares.

and i think this was also such a great moment :(( bc kusakaba has been running away from battle for. as long as we’ve known him LMAO but this is him taking on a more protective role towards the kids!! something akin to nanami and the importance he placed on adulthood. and it’s also so good when you remember kusakabe’s previous stance on yuji…. how he thought it was best for him to be executed. but deep down he cares!!

i’d have liked to see more interactions between him and miwa bc it’s obvious those two are especially close :(( and that makes a lot of sense because both are them are just. Nice. they’re kind people. miwa is just way less cynical. their banter is always so fun and i need my dosage of found family father/daughter moments so akutami BETTER supply me with more …. 😒😒😒

anyway i like kusakabe i think he’s nice :3

ALSO CAN WE TALK ABOUT THIS PANEL HELLOOOOO????? I CRIED???????? THEY ALL LOOK SO GOODDDDD one of the most handsome gojo’s i’ve seen in a while….. his dimples and his smile :’3 and he thinks kusakabe is a nice guy!!!! do you think they ever explored each other’s bo/GUNSHOT

okok i think i’ve gotten all my thoughts out……. almost. BECAUSE LOOK WHO’S BACK ‼️‼️

MY MANNNNN MY GUY maybe now the fandom will stop sleeping on him smh……… he didn’t survive gojo fucking satoru and train yuuta in africa for this disrespect. miguel is probably the strongest sorcerer outside of japan he is a Problem and i believe in him!!!!! i’m also excited bc i think this means we might be getting more old characters back soon :3 i wanna see larue. and if we see larue we might see todou…. maybe even yuki….. (<- delusional) BUT most of all: if we get larue or even just miguel there’s the SLIGHTEST chance we might get some flashbacks of cult leader geto and if that happened i would forgive akutami for literally Everything <33333

#anyways!!! not as good as last chap but i liked this one :3 #dilf lovers dw… akutami is one of us. there’s no way he’d get rid of more than necessary #no but i rlly was so hyped to see miguel!! i NEED to see him and yuuta interact so bad pls akutami 😔😔#that’s his boy!!!!!!! his pupil!!!!!!!#i just know he’s the reason yuuta got sassier LMAO… the gojo slander that must’ve been going on over there 😭😭#and obv i’m always thankful for gojo crumbs <333 him and his beloved ice cream.. he’s the cutest little guy #ari noises ✩#jjk spoilers #jjk manga spoilers #jjk leaks #jjk 254

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rmorde · 1 year ago

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Just a long rant. Sorry.

Stuff that are oddly ignored or willfully misunderstood about Get0:

#1 It was his choice to do genocide. No one forced him to do it. Yuki mentioned it but quickly pointed out that it is a crazy idea that no one would do! He chose that goal for himself.

#2 He was dead serious about his genocide. He is 100% willing to kill non-sorcerers. Wdym "he may not have killed a lot"?! -> He killed an entire village. -> He killed his own parents. (It's his "Now that I've done this, I can never go back" deed) -> He killed the OG leader of the cult that had Riko killed. (Even if he deserves it) -> He killed a client for not paying him. (Are we sure he didn't just send those curses to him in the first place?) Get0 wants all non-sorcerers dead. Their "usefulness" just delays the inevitable to him. Remember his speech about two types of "monkeys"?

Speaking of which, he hates non-sorcerers so much he calls them "monkeys" and even deodorizes himself after being around them for a few moments! It's so wrong on multiple levels.

Also, I repeat Get0 KILLED HIS OWN PARENTS JUST TO MAKE A POINT THAT HE IS SERIOUS ABOUT HIS GENOCIDE AGENDA! HE IS NEVER GOING TO COMPROMISE WITH THIS.

#3 "Get0 did not intend to seriously fight Goj0's students. He went easy on them"... What? What? WHAT?! How-

-> He wants Maki dead. MAKI ONLY SURVIVED BECAUSE OF HER HEAVENLY RESTRICTION + INUMAKI AND PANDA ARRIVING JUST IN TIME + YUTA HEALING HER. Get0 was not being merciful towards her.

-> He wants Yuta dead. He explained it explicitly. He needs Yuta dead to get Rika so he can beat Goj0. GET0 WAS NOT HOLDING BACK. HE IS DOING HIS ABSOLUTE BEST TO KILL YUTA. THE UZUMAKI WAS NOT JUST FOR DISPLAY! Regardless of whatever slight fondness Get0 has for Yuta in JJK 0, it doesn't fucking matter. He was still trying to kill him.

#4 "Get0 also went easy on Jujutsu Tech." I... Did we watch the same movie?!

-> Do all the managers like Ijichi not matter? A lot of them are fucking dead on-screen. Some are even killed by the hands of Get0's daughters! -> A young sorcerer or two were killed on-screen, before Nanami did his back-to-back flashes to save them. GET0 IS NOT GOING EASY ON THEM!

-> I guess this idea come from the fact that he didn't use all of his power against Yuta and that his army of curses were divided. Well... HE DID IT FOR THE BENEFIT OF HIS OWN FAMILY/CULT. IT WAS NOT FOR JUJUTSU TECHS + SORCERERS' SAKE! Get0 loves them and is very protective of his found family. It's a testament of how precious they are to him that he willingly weaken himself just to make sure they have enough support through his tamed curses.

-> The quote "I have no hard feelings towards Jujutsu Tech." is not an admission/statement of genuine regret. It's Get0's equivalent of "Nothing personal. Just good business. You're just in the way. " ---> Whatever affections he may have towards to jujutsu tech pale in comparison to the love he has for his family. In that moment, jujutsu tech is the greatest threat against his family. Get0 compartmentalize away his sentiment towards his alma mater and former friends. He prioritizes his and his family's victory first.

#5 "Get0 didn't want to fight Goj0." Ok... I get why this is a popular take but here is the thing: Yes. Get0 does not want to fight Goj0 but he needs to fucking fight Goj0 because he is the greatest obstacle to his genocidal dream.

-> EVIDENCE #1: He wants to get Rika so he can be on par with Goj0. Why? Because he must fight him.

-> EVIDENCE #2: He assigned Miguel to stall Goj0. You know? Miguel! The guy with a weapon that can fuck up Goj0's abilities and possibly weaken him? Get0 learned well from the Star Plasma Vessel mission and sent after Goj0 a sorcerer whose skills* and tools are as close as possible to T0ji's. Too bad Goj0 learned as well from the disastrous SPV mission and trained hard to fight without relying too much on Limitless ----> *I think Miguel just unfortunately got the J0go treatment. Goj0 gave him special attention. He stayed behind to deal with him personally - implying that no one else on his side can match Miguel. Not Yaga. Not Nanami. Not Mei. --------> Miguel also survived Goj0's punches and we all know how hard he hits. That's on a normal situation. But Ijichi noted that Goj0 was angry during the fight. So, I bet each of Goj0's punches are fatal but Miguel tanked them. He is that strong.

Look. Geto is a smart guy. He was playing wisely in his war against Gojo. He isn't going to fight him until he was ready. He did NOT go after Yuta at school because he didn't want to fight Goj0. He went there first to kill Yuta, get Rika, AND THEN fight Goj0.

Get0's story is a tragedy because he became utterly consumed by despair and hatred.

He was so desperate to find meaning in his life that he spiraled down from sorcerer to curse user to a genocidal maniac.

He become so full of hatred that he was willing to go against the reason he became a curse user in the first place. He wanted to make a world with just sorcerers, right? Then why the fuck is he killing so many sorcerers in his war? His Night Parade of Hundred Demons decimated the population of the very people he wants to live in his world.

Get0 loves his family and he still holds affection towards his former friends (especially Goj0). They all love and loved him in return. Unfortunately, it was not enough to save him.

#just have to get off my chest #because it's a pet peeve of mine when awesome villains get 'purified' into misunderstood heroes #he is a villain because he did bad things and is willing to do more bad things (gen0c1de is never justified)#he had become too far gone in his goal that he harms the very group of people he wanted to 'save'#but he is a sweet family man tho which pushes him into anti-villain territory #also to clarify: i don't hate get0. in fact he is in my top 10 faves #he is a really good and interesting hero-turned-villain

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shurisbraids · 1 year ago

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it's true and you should say it, op. this is exactly what i've been thinking!! at its core, atsv is about a kid in spandex realizing his best friends joined a cult. it wasn't until miguel started talking about canon events and the web of life and destiny that i started feeling this way. he totally fits the bill of a cult leader - not perfectly, per se, but enough where it counts:

the way he asserts his knowledge of a perceived higher truth. again, canon events and the web of life and destiny. the religious flair of it all - how all spiderkin are connected as one by a higher power; how their lives are predetermined, bound by fate, and they can never challenge that fate; how they must endure misery and suffering not only for their own growth but as part of a greater plan. and, of course, his subordinates believe it because it's rooted in truth: as spiders, they all share the same experiences. same chapters, same patterns, same traumas. and they've seen entire universes crumble presumably because of interdimensional meddling. so, miguel must be right. this is their dogma.

the way he employs charisma to win people over. this one's more implied, i think - excluding that tone of voice he used while explaining the society's deal to miles. how else would he have scored thousands of spiderkin to join his cause? sure, not all of them were won over (e.g., hobie), and he's a pretty harsh guy at his worst, but as leader he should know how to exercise tact or persuasion. it's not too far-fetched to believe that the spiders see him as a paternal figure of sorts - the one who guides them, who has the answers they seek, who soothes and rationalizes their pain. he tells them what they want to hear.

the way he established the spider society as a special task force burdened with an incredible purpose. srsly, they're basically the time police and a doomsday cult rolled into one. the chosen ones who must prevent the end of every world every day. keeping everyone and everything in the spiderverse in line to prevent an omniversal apocalypse. sacrificing the few in order to protect the many - even if said-few are loved ones. with the society, you get to be something more, become part of something greater than yourself, which is something right out of the cultist playbook. not to mention their belief that their exalted ends justify the means, leading them to do things they would otherwise consider morally reprehensible (e.g., leaving people to die when you can easily save them).

the way he ostracizes miles and labels him as Other™. this goes without saying. everyone has harped on this. miguel doesn't want miles to join the society because he doesn't see miles as a "true" spider. it was never miles' destiny to be a spider, so he's an anomaly, an outsider. predictably, he's shunned by the group, his friends are barred from contacting him, and miguel is hostile towards him. he sees miles as a force of universal destruction, threatening the fragile cosmic balance that he's been trying so hard to maintain. on top of that, miles directly challenges a principle essential to miguel's doctrine: that there's only one path in life a spider can take. deviation from this norm will - allegedly - lead to dire consequences. trillions of lives could be lost! so, why would he let miles join the society? of course, this doesn't excuse his cruelty towards miles (i.e., calling him a mistake, yeeting a trash can at him, slamming him into the top of a moving train), but it is a good explanation for his actions towards miles.

the way he doesn't respond kindly to being questioned. gwen asks him if he's absolutely, positively sure of the outcome if canon is broken. he isn't amused by her inquiry. considering his trauma, it makes sense why her question would pluck his nerves. not to mention the possible severity of the situation; after all, why gamble on such high stakes? but he's still being stubborn: he refuses to entertain the possibility of different options, of being wrong, of having hope. it's his way or the highway - as gwen learns soon after. he sees her as a threat due to her newfound curiosity and willingness to protect miles. she's an ally to an anomaly, which makes her an enemy to the society. thus, she becomes Other™ and is spat out of the group.

the way his criticisms - and fallibility - go unchallenged by his followers. upon failing to capture miles, he immediately shifts blame onto gwen, claiming that it was her fault miles got away, not his. the rest of the team - excluding peter - refuses to call bullshit and defend gwen like they should. all of them failed, but none of them admit it. even when peter tries to speak up, he fumbles big time, and jess silences him. they just leave miguel's accusation hanging in the damn air. they won't correct him because he's the cult leader and it's not their place to do so. gwen is the one who ultimately takes the fall, not them. similarly, when gwen asks jess for support after miguel calls her a liability, she still gets screwed over: jess throws her no lifeline. subsequently, gwen is dragged away by the go-home machine while jess and peter - people she thought she could trust - make no fuss about it.

the way he projects dominance in the spider society. cult leaders tend to utilize charisma and conviction to their ideals in order to gain power over people - and i've already illustrated how miguel follows suit. but we also have to discuss another, more obvious factor: his giant stature. excluding a selective few, he towers over everyone at hq, and we all know how size can make a world of difference in power dynamics. the bigger someone is, the more intimidating they are. when gwen questions him, he immediately turns on her, using his size to overwhelm her, to back her up into a figurative corner. to reassert his dominance. and - what a surprise! - none of the other spiders try to protect her. srsly, that scene still gives me mad anxiety! the way miguel forces gwen to dangle over that fucking ledge made me fear for her life the first time i watched it. i love you, migs, but eat shit, oh my god—

there's plenty more to talk about, of course: miguel's intense and controlling personality; how the spider society doesn't look like a cult on the surface; how almost none of them - including miguel - are aware of its true nature; the ambiguous finances for hq; how miguel being the central figure of a cult is accurate to the comics; the deterioration of the relationship between miles and his friends because of the cult; the emotional damage miles has suffered because of it; how mayday was technically born into the cult; and - most importantly - how, despite everything, none of the spider cultists are bad people. not even miguel.

they are all still heroes. they are all good people. all they want is to do the right thing, to work in service of a greater good. they're just misguided - just like real cultists. for some, it's easy to dismiss cultists as stereotypically evil or gullible, to assume that it's easy to avoid falling into the clutches of a cult, but that is NOT the case. anyone can become part of a cult. and no, it doesn't always mean that the person is bad or weak-willed or foolish. many cultists are normal people who were simply swept up into something... unideal. atsv illustrates this perfectly. its greatest strength is humanizing the cultists! regardless of the pain and the heartache they may cause, they're only you and me, your family and friends, people you see at school and at work and walking down the street - or swinging from webs.

but, as gwen's arc shows us, there is still hope for them. after realizing that she was right to question miguel's theories, that miles may be justified in saving his father, she breaks free. the fear she had of returning to her original life dissipates when her father gives her the thing she always wanted: acceptance. and - best of all - he won't be taken from her. she won't have that acceptance taken from her. she has hope. so, she assembles her own team of spiderkin to counter miguel and rescue her friend. of course, she broke miles' trust, and it may take a while to regain it, but there is hope that she can successfully make amends. and the spider cultists can too. escaping from a cult irl can be easier said than done, but it's always possible.

so, yeah.

dethrone miguel o'hara. end the spider society. give all these poor souls some therapy. 💔

The Spider-Society is a cult

Or at the very least Gwen’s experiences in it are very similar to indoctrinated cult members in real life.

Other cult elements in Gwen’s experience as a member of the society:

All of your friends and social connections are in the group

You’re discouraged or barred from connecting with people outside the group

You’re made to believe you won’t be loved or accepted outside the group

Your deepest insecurities and traumas that are shared with the group are later turned against you

#i'm sorry bc this is so l o n g #but—#atsv had me feeling a certain way #{🩸} miguel o'hara #{🎧} miles morales #{🩰} gwen stacy.#{🕸️} across the spiderverse.#{👁️‍🗨️} shu replies.#{☁️} meta.#{📚} library.

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mrsoharaa · 11 months ago

Note

Hehehe

Miggy anon here. Saw a very high quality geto edit and thought out you even tho i dont watch the show

MIGGY ANONNN <;33

aww, wish I could see which one it is! (I've practically seen/watched every geto (and miguel too, ofc! lmao) edit their is by far lmao) but aww! that's so sweet that you thought of lil ol' meee! love me my hot silly cult leader (୨୧ ˶ˊ꒳`˶) ♡ ♡

0 notes

whatisonthemoon · 2 years ago

Text

Forged Messages, Insults and Obscenities: the Incredible Reaction of the "Friends of CESNUR" (1999)

▲ Pictured: Massimo Introvigne rings "the Bell of World Peace and Love" at a Federation of World Peace and Love (FOWPAL) conference, founded by Dr. Hong, Tao-Tze, the founder and spiritual leader of the Taiwan-based Tai Ji Men

Forged Messages, Insults and Obscenities: the Incredible Reaction of the "Friends of CESNUR" (source) By Miguel Martínez

"Dear Martinez […] Not everybody can play with inflatable dolls. How many do you have? […] Why don't you spend your time in a more pleasant fashion? After all, I don't think it's fun to call other people imbeciles (unless they pay you, but in that case yours is truly a dirty job). There must be other outlets for frustrated anti-Semites and those who have been defeated by life, even in Imola." (the whole post)

This is only one of about one hundred similar messages, which came out in various Italian and foreign newsgroups under the name religiosus@my-dejanews. This writer, in a message dated April 9th, 1999, on alt.support.ex-cult, the same anonymous author stated that

" We wrote before that Religiosus is a collective name and that messages under this name are posted by a number of different people, in different countries, all somewhat sympathetic to CESNUR views (but not necessarily members of CESNUR)."

"Not necessarily members…". The style also shows that nine times out of ten, the person who signs himself as "Religiosus" is the same person. Besides messages signed Religiosus, other messages have also been posted with different signatures, but the style again shows the same hand behind most (the full story, written by somebody who knows Internet a lot better than I do). On April 9th, Religiosus went well beyond inflatable dolls. He spammed Italy's newsgroups with false messages attributed to me, containing attacks on religion in general, Christianity and the Jews. Of course these false messages (see here), as we have seen, allowed Religiosus to call me a "frustrated anti-Semite."

In reply to this forgery, I asked CESNUR to officially distance itself from its over-zealous supporter, something CESNUR has not yet done. I therefore hold CESNUR morally, if not legally, responsible for the insults and, above all, for the forgery. This forgery had a follow-up: on April 24th, an even more diffamatory forgery came out, where the following incredible expressions were attributed to me:

"Who says it isn't the Jews who are manoeuvring Scientology, the Jehovah's Witnesses and CESNUR too? […] The problem today is not violence against Jews, it is violence BY Jews against their opponents." (the whole post)

I have no love for law courts, and I would never think of suing anybody who criticises me openly, however loudly. But of course only a judge can discover the name and surname of the person who created such a serious forgery.

Seven simple questions The whole debate between me and CESNUR arose around seven simple questions I posed to CESNUR. Here they are, in the form of statements:

Massimo Introvigne wrote a misleading, biased and apologetic study on New Acropolis, which included a series of false statements about me and my legal situation.

Introvigne and nearly all the Italian CESNUR activists are also members, and often officers, of Alleanza Cattolica, a right-wing organisation on the fringe of the Catholic Church, with a most pronounced ideological and political agenda which makes any objective approach to reality virtually impossible for its militants.

Cristianità, the official paper of Alleanza Cattolica, claims that CESNUR's activities are part of its "good battle".

Introvigne never wrote about "cults" until 1985, or if he did (I could not of course have read everything he wrote before that date), he did so using a tone which is the opposite of the one he uses currently, as can be seen in an article he wrote in 1985.

Alleanza Cattolica bases itself on the "teaching magisterium" of Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, the father of "Tradition, Family and Property", a millennialist organisation which provides militant support for the political and financial interests of Brazilian landowners.

In 1985, Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira started teaching, as part of his "magisterium", the existence of an "anti-cult movement" and the non-existence of "brainwashing" (ideas which of course he did not invent himself).

These very special teachings of Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira coincide with the ideological foundations of CESNUR.

CESNUR can reply to each of these statements, by saying they are either true or false, and in the latter case, by explaining why.

They are quite simple questions. It is only when one doesn't want to answer that they become difficult. And polemics start. The Fine Art of Lively Discussion Polemics are a lovely game. The ultimate goal is to come nearer to truth through an honest battle of wits. This is why those who claim to already possess the truth find it so difficult to argue. Many still remember Introvigne's famous phrase, "Once again, I am not interested in discussing with an 'interpreter' my academic credentials or my work."

However, running away from discussion easily leads to childish - if not actually criminal activities, such as forging electronic messages, or at the very least to a nervous breakdown.

Since I don't want Dr Introvigne to suffer from a nervous breakdown, I take the liberty of teaching him a few rules of the fine art of polemics. Of course, if he learns them, he may well use them against me. However I am not at all certain he will learn.

Admitting One's Mistakes

When you make a mistake, you must admit it. Writing about CESNUR, I made several mistakes. I know them all, since they were immediately pointed out to the whole world by my adversary - who thus implicitly confirmed all my non mistakes.

I once called Introvigne "President" and not "Director" of CESNUR. This is an obvious mistake and I admitted it immediately.

On the other hand, the controversy between me and CESNUR started when Introvigne claimed that a court of law in France had established that I had made false statements. To put it very politely, this was an enormous mistake on the part of the Turin lawyer. Who has not however yet admitted it.

A good polemicist must also avoid making misleading statements.I had written that Introvigne was the President of the Transylvanian Society of Dracula. It was not false, but it was misleading. Quite rightly, he immediately let it be known that he was president only of the Italian branch of this society.

Now let us take the example of a misleading statement made by Introvigne. Speaking on a Catholic TV station, during a programme on cults, he said that Rick Ross - cult critic and former deprogrammer - was a "convicted jewellery thief." This statement is true, but it is also misleading, since the onlooker will be left with the impression that Ross either stole jewels while deprogramming someone, or that he is a professional thief who in his free time kidnaps people.

Actually, many years ago during a stormy adolescence, Ross was convicted for a theft. This experience led him to commit himself to social issues, and hence to working with cult victims. The fact is important, but for quite different reasons from what those listening to Introvigne would be led to think. Friends and Hypotheses Before engaging in polemics, we should first decide whether we just wants to sling mud against somebody, or else want to arrive at some truth through discussion. In the second case, we must use only those facts which are meaningful within the framework of a reasoned and plausible hypothesis. As an example - it is a fact that Italian politician Massimo D'Alema has a Stalin-like moustache, but this fact is also quite meaningless. On the other hand, when we say that D'Alema wants a certain law to pass because it suits the interests of his party, this may be true or false, but it does fit into a logical hypothesis and the statement deserves looking into.

According to the French Catholic magazine, Golias, Introvigne writes for the French Communist paper L'Humanité. Introvigne also writes for Cristianità, the organ of the Italian right-wing group Alleanza Cattolica. Now, I could make use of the first fact to damage Introvigne's reputation among anti-Communists throughout the world. However, I don't do so, because I am not interested at all in Introvigne's reputation. What I do want to do is understand what his aims are. And nothing shows that these aims have anything to do with the political Left. There is a relationship with the Communist Party, but this relationship is quite meaningless.

On the other hand, Introvigne has been a militant of Alleanza Cattolica for over a quarter of a century. Ever since his early youth, he has followed the line of this organisation without the slightest deviation, and this same organisation is deeply involved in virtually every activity of CESNUR in Italy. This appears to be a much more meaningful relationship. And this relationship can also be explained within the framework of a reasoned and plausible hypothesis.

Now, how do CESNUR and its friends engage in polemics? I first wish to say that I understand their problem. On the one hand, there is CESNUR, which claims to hold the scientific truth in the matter of cults. And hence claims to be able to tell governments, judges, media, tax officials and social workers of every kind what to do. This is why it is important for all of society to be able to thoroughly assess the reliability of CESNUR. On the other hand, there is an individual - Miguel Martinez - who has submitted some documents which cast doubt on this reliability. Martinez is simply an independent professional, who lays no claim to teaching any truth to the world. He is like a postman bringing a telegram saying we have been cheated. It hardly matters whether the postman is a good family man or an alcoholic. What does matter is whether the contents of the telegram are true or not.

So if CESNUR does not want to answer the seven simple questions I posed, it can only keep silent. Or else attack the postman. Now, it's exactly against the postman - that is, Miguel Martinez - that the friends of CESNUR have launched three accusations. First, Martinez is supposed to have written years ago one article in an "extremist" magazine. Second, Martinez is supposed to use pseudonyms. Third, Martinez is supposed to have been expelled from an Italian cult-critic organisation, ARIS. As we shall see, two of these accusations are false and the third is insignificant, but they were enough to start a daily campaign of attacks on the newsgroups.

Religiosus (writing in alt.support.ex-cult), in his usual scholarly style, sums up the accusations against me, speaking of

"one Miguel Martinez, now exposed on Italian NGs as a clown hiding under a variety of Internet aliases and (under his own name) as a former writer for the anti-semitic magazine' Orion' together with Robert Faurisson, the father of all Holocaust negationists."

I shall deal with the "pseudonyms" later on. "Together with", plus the use of the plural, makes one think of a series of articles written jointly.

The reality is quite different. Orion is a small "alternative" magazine. Authors include Right wing extremists, but also Left wing extremists, science-fiction fans, neo-pagans, Muslims and even members and friends of Alleanza Cattolica, who engage in free and fierce polemics with each other. Orion has also published articles by such diverse authors as Sub-Commander Marcos and Noam Chomsky.

Back in 1993 a single article signed Miguel Martinez was published; this article, picked up from a bullettin published by cult critics, was about the anti-Communist cult of the Korean, Sun Myung Moon. The only reference in this article to the Second World War was a mention of the fact that one of Moon's associates was a convicted war criminal. Now, according to the friends of CESNUR, at some indefinite date, Orion is also supposed to have published an article by the controversial Frenchman, Robert Faurisson. I have no idea whether this is true or not, and of course the whole matter would be of interest only if this article came out before 1993, or if there was the slightest affinity in content between the articles. Because, what does CESNUR's accusation mean: does mentioning the links between the Latin American death squads and "Reverend" Moon mean practising anti-Semitism? If this accusation cannot be fitted into a logical framework, it will be exactly like accusing Introvigne of having sent the tanks rolling into Prague simply because he writes about "new religions" in L'Humanité.

I have nothing whatsoever against extremists, whether they be of the anti-US variety (like Orion) or of the pro-US variety (like Alleanza Cattolica). I have repeatedly said that I see nothing wrong in Introvigne being a right-wing extremist. What I do find dubious is when an extremist group - of any kind - sets up a "study centre" which claims to be scientifically objective. It is reminiscent of the Creation Science study centres set up by evangelicals keen on scientifically proving the world was created 6000 years ago.

A second accusation against me involves my disagreement with ARIS, a non denominational Italian cult critic association. Here is how Religiosus, in his usual scientific style, explains the event:

"Dear Miguel Martinez […] You are so ignorant that even the most ramshackle Italian anti-cult movement, ARIS, has expelled you with a big kick on your butt for having said who knows what idiocy about Islam. I have a friend in ARIS who told me that the kick was painful, with an official press release, and that you are still crying over the pain. Ai, Miguel, que dolor!" (the whole post)

Certain details immediately show that Religiosus did not learn the story from a "friend in ARIS", as he threateningly says, but from a messageIwrote on the discussion group on "new religions", NUREL, where Massimo Introvigne too writes. In any case, I was not expelled from ARIS at all; I did not even belong to the group. To be exact, I sent them a fax explaining that I no longer intended to work together with them. This fax actually took ARIS by surprise. My opinions are different from those of ARIS. But here we are speaking about facts, and concerning these facts, ARIS too agrees with me.

How to Use Evidence

Another important rule for proper polemics is this: never make any accusation which does enjoy the support of a plausible theory, but is lacking in proof.

Let us take as an example an accusation I never made: "CESNUR is financed by Scientology." Such a statement might be supported by indirect evidence (CESNUR organises extremely expensive conferences) and a plausible theory could be set up to support it as well: CESNUR does legitimise Scientology as a religion and this does imply a vast number of privileges for this US transnational corporation. However I have no proof that Scientology pays CESNUR, so I shall never make a statement to that effect. In other words, one must never make accusations even when one does have evidence and a plausible theory, but no proof. On the other hand, the friends of CESNUR launch accusations even when all three are missing.

Let us take what, at least according to them, is an accusation. I am supposed to use several pseudonyms on Internet: Martini, Martinelli and Harry, three names which appear in a site called "Allarme Scientology" and sometimes on newsgroups (this accusation sounds a little strange, coming as it does from somebody who calls himself Religiosus). In this case, there is one piece of evidence: the names Martinez, Martini and Martinelli sound rather similar.

However there is no supporting theory at all. Why should anybody write publicly under his own name about highly controversial issues, and then use a pseudonym to write about less controversial matters? I know I am neither Martini nor Martinelli nor Harry. However, I am not asking anyone to take my word for it. There is very clear proof of what I say: Martini, Martinelli and Harry are all three experts on Scientology, a subject they have been dealing with for years, on their website. Anybody who knows the cult and cult critic scene in Italy is perfectly aware that I am no expert on Scientology. Also, a quick look at the texts written by each clearly shows we are all different people. But here is how a CESNUR friend who signs himself "Lancillotto" ("Lancelot") reacts when asked to consider these arguments:

"Sorry, nobody believes you. You are triple, as long as the money keeps pouring in."

A phrase which - in Italian - contains what some people assure us is Introvigne's favourite pun.

Martini, Martinelli and Harry are excellent people, and I have no problem in being associated with them. In fact, this accusation works, not because it is offensive, but exactly because it is false. The mechanism is childish but effective: "You are Eskimo!" "No, I have nothing against Eskimos, but I don't happen to be one!" "Liar! You see he denies being an Eskimo?" Writing, as he himself claims, from the CESNUR conference on spiritualism in Turin, an imitator of Religiosus calls me "Miguel Bugiardez," something we can translate as "Miguel the Liar." The statement made by the Cesnurians becomes defamatory - from a legal point of view as well - since it means they call me a liar whenever I deny it. A Secret Between Me and Freud

The expression, "as long as the money keeps pouring in" is another kind of statement one should avoid when engaging in polemics between adults. The CESNUR friend is stating as a fact that somebody is paying me. Of course, everything is possible. We have seen how one can even play with the hypothesis that Scientology pays CESNUR. But "Lancillotto" makes his statement without any supporting theory at all: who is supposed to be paying for me? The Belgian parliament? The psychiatrists? International communism?

Without any supporting hypothesis, the friends of CESNUR have at least presented a small piece of evidence: the fact that the CESNUR Critical Page has an elegant lay-out. This is what Religiosus means when, in another message, he says the following about me:

"Struck by sudden richness, he set up an imposing anti-CESNUR website; an anti-Scientology site had blazed the trail for this site."

Similar statements have been made in the past by Introvigne (see here). Now it is obviously no sense to set up a site critical towards Scientology (something which notoriously involves some risk) only in order to open some pages, on that same site, which criticise CESNUR. It should also be remembered that the pages critical towards CESNUR were removed in March, and that the site has gone back to dealing with Scientology only. After a period of total suspension, I had to find a new home for this "critical page", a home which only now has become final. I agree that my "critical page" is pretty. The technical difference between this page, created by Harry, and the rest of the Kelebek site, created by me, is painfully obvious.

Anyhow, scientific research - something CESNUR often speaks of - is based on the possibility of repeating experiments and changing one's mind on the basis of evidence. I therefore invite Dr Introvigne to call up a dozen or so different webmasters. He will notice that they will all say that the costs are quite low. Of course, this does not prove I don't receive money. Perhaps I pocket the sums I get from the Communist psychiatrists. But until Introvigne can discover where I hide the receipts, this will be a secret between me and Freud.

Why it's Important to Keep Calm

Another important piece of advice. Never get hysterical. One will end up by appearing ridiculous. In a post on NUREL (March 24th, 1999), Massimo Introvigne comments a message of mine in which I had only mentioned CESNUR en passant and in quite neutral terms. Here is how his reply starts:

"While I normally do not respond to nonsense about CESNUR (serious researches should be able to recognize trash when they see it) a recent posting by a professional anti-cultist is more nonsensical than usual."

And now let's listen to Religiosus (see here):

"Martinez is a professional anti-cultist." (in the same last Religiosus post)

Actually, I am a professional interpreter, and in any case my vision of the "cult" issue is very far from that of, say Margaret Singer, the "cult enemy" par excellence.

But here is another outburst of the same author:

"Dear Miguel, as a case of multiple personality disorder (MPD) you are just second rate. So far, you have emanated Harry, Martini, Martinelli and Martinovsky plus the short-lived Andrea Vinci. Imagine, in America there are cases of MPD with fifty or sixty different personalities, each with its own different features, competences, names (and probably ways of posting on NGs). Admit it. You're a failure, you are tortured by envy when Zoccatelli [a prominent militant of both CESNUR and Alleanza Cattolica] is interviewed by the national media and nobody cares about you."

Another suggestion for CESNUR - mention personal matters only when these mean something. I hope Introvigne has a happy family life, but this is no business of mine and as a matter of fact I have never mentioned it. Now here is what the friends of CESNUR have to say in the same post about my private life:

"After all, cases of MPD are not so frequent in and around Imola and this summer on the beach even a mental dissociation case like you with only five personalities (but try to emanate some more in the meantime) can pick up some German girl (or a Muslim girl, if you prefer). Of course you run the risk of falling into an identity crisis at the crucial moment and forgetting your name. A beastly summer lies ahead of you. Send our greetings to Faurisson."

This is an example of a losing strategy. The author is obviously utterly unable to control his hatred. He goes on stating as a fact the usual hypothesis about pseudonyms. Finally, ever since the early days of the Palaeolithic, hurling insults based on sex or on mental health has always been a clear sign of when the offending party has lost its capacity for arguing. In other words, Religiosus ends up looking stupid and makes the whole institution he represents appear ridiculous.

A Forgery

I have no time to follow newsgroups. I found out about this whole story thanks to a friend of mine who forwarded me Religiosus' messages, together with a forged message signed "Demetrio Martinovskj" and attributed to me. I quote the full message, to show the incredibly low level touched by the "friends of CESNUR":

BTW, both our tireless travellers spent their Easter holidays teaching lessons on the New Age at a retreat for young Adventists (a Christian, pro-Jewish religion) in Tuscany. They never stop, do they? Were the corn flakes, at least, good?"

This forgery was written by somebody who knew where Introvigne and Zoccatelli had just spent their holidays. The reference (perfectly meaningless, of course) to a "Christian, pro-Jewish religion" of course was studied to offend religious people in general, Christians and Jews in a single blow. The forger shows such an intense affection for PierLuigi Zoccatelli that he is even unable to accuse him (as I supposedly should do) of being apologetic towards cults. "Martinovskj" merely says that Zoccatelli is famous and is a "tireless traveller": hardly a criticism.

This is quite obviously a criminal offence, since the message was studied for the sole purpose of defaming me and promoting CESNUR. So I hope it will be possible to track down the real author of this message. In any case, this forgery was not a very intelligent move, since I had not written on CESNUR for several months, and indeed I was starting to work on quite different issues. Let sleeping dogs lie… perhaps they counted on my missing what was going on in the newsgroups, but inevitably, sooner or later, somebody would have started forwarding me their messages. Who is Religiosus?

First of all, I would like to reassure Religiosus, and above all Lancillotto - who prudently hides behind the name of Arthur's bravest knight. CESNUR knows my name and address, and I am not one bit afraid of them; why should they be afraid of me?

As soon as I replied on the Newsgroups, the anonymous defamer changed his strategy. From a group of sympathisers, if not member, of CESNUR, "Religiosus" suddenly became a joke:

"This is how the Religiosus game is played: to post as 'Religiosus' from dejanews, from any computer, all that is needed is to know the password, and this password has been sent to dozens of people ('cult apologists', 'cult members', some more sporting anti-cultist and simple practical jokers), each being asked to continue the chain."

This prudent statement in view of legal liability comes a little too late. It fully contradicts a statement made just 4 days before - on March 5th- by Religiosus on it.cultura.newage:

"Religiosus is a collective nom de plume used by several different people with the same password, who employ different computers (hence the different IP addresses, if you want to amuse yourselves by looking for them) and who share certain ideas and who are in touch with CESNUR."

In other words, they share the same ideas and are directly in touch with Massimo Introvigne's organisation. In any case, the majority of Religiosus' messages has the same style, and is anything but playful. Here is a typical example:

"If you move around the Web, you will see that CESNUR is the constant target for insults from anti-cultists, and CESNUR never replies with the same tone."

True enough - as we have seen, the tone of the friends of CESNUR is very different indeed from mine, at least.

As soon as they realised the risks they were making the reputation of CESNUR run, Religiosus disappeared, and insults began to dwindle, thus showing that the supposed "chain mail" was actually under some form of control. There is very clearly one main Religiosus, surrounded by a few colleagues whom, perhaps, he gave the password to (this does not free him of course from his liabilities).

Some friends suggested that Religiosus is forced to hide his identity, because he is actually Massimo Introvigne himself. This is their reasoning. I shall also say why I do not accept their hypothesis. Religiosus is somebody directly involved, who has totally lost his self-control because of the criticism I have moved to CESNUR's methods. Just imagine - for over one month, this person has been writing two or three messages of insults every single day against one person, that is me. Also imagine - the over one hundred messages he has sent so far are simply based on nothing. I am sure that even the most generous reader will agree that the author of these messages is a seriously disturbed individual. Now, I do not believe that Introvigne is mentally disturbed, or that he is so stupid: not even the Legionaries of Christ would allow somebody like Religiosus to teach for three days a year in one of their institutions (this is why Introvigne can use the title of "professor").

My friends claim that Religiosus employs many of Introvigne's most typical expressions. However, it is also true that everybody in CESNUR tends to speak and write like the founder. These friends also point out that Religiosus usually mails from a TIN ISP in Turin, using Netscape 3.02 on a Macintosh computer. Just as Massimo Introvigne does in his public messages. I do not see this to be compelling proof.My friends also note that Religiosus posts both in Italian and in English; but the messages in English were clearly written by an Italian who (like Introvigne) knows English quite well. Not proof enough for my scientific mind. However, there is one decisive point, which proves that Introvigne cannot be Religiosus: Introvigne has repeatedly written that he does not engage in polemics on newsgroups. And of course I take his word for it. At least until the opposite is proven.

Miguel Martinez Imola, 1.5.99

#cesnur #religion #massimo introvigne #scientology #cult apologism #cults

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