#i know the TVA exists outside of time so Loki can't see it but also Loki can timeslip inside the TVA so i say he CAN see it

[sunflowerdigs]

Loki up there in Yggdrasil, twirling his hair and kicking his feet every time Mobius mentions his super competent partner who saved everyone ❤

[p4nishers]

I find it very hard to understand everyone's confusion regarding who he was talking to when he said “I know what kind of god I need to be. For you.” In the doorway, Sylvie runs off, but Mobius is frozen and horrified. Mobius is the Loki expert. Mobius knows then that Loki isn’t coming back and just stares in fear and petrification. Loki knew those words had meaning to only them, and those are the ones he chose as his farewell. Then he turns and advances towards the loom, where the Lokius theme was playing as he became the God of Stories because it was through Mobius’ guidance and unconditional love and support that they’ve come this far.

Mobius explaining to Loki in s2e2, "because it's not my life, this is. the tva is the only life i've ever known, i like it. i wanna thank the guy who brought me here, got me this pie." and the juxtaposition to the revelation that Loki is the one who brought Mobius to the tva in the first place and gave him his own Glorious Purpose makes him leaving the tva the moment Loki isn't there anymore louder than ever in terms of how real their love is. It proves Mobius truly stayed at the tva because he had Loki. He only decided to finally see his tl because loki wasn’t around anymore — he felt no other purpose to stay. But really there’s no purpose for him in his st either. Loki is his purpose. Loki is his life.

Mobius didn’t choose to leave the TVA just because Loki wasn’t there anymore but because he knew Loki couldn’t see him there as well. So, he chose to stay in his og timeline because at least in one of the infinite timelines where Loki reigned over, Loki could still see him as opposed to in the tva, a place that exists outside of time.

Loki HEARING Mobius means that they are connected. They could have literally had that same scene but with Sylvie in Mobius' place - but no, it was Mobius who Loki heard. It is Mobius whom Loki is looking after. They are together in spirit. And Mobius knows that. He knows that Loki sees him and that's the most important thing. As sad as it is, Mobius being alone and depressed without Loki is better than him being happy and nonchalant about Loki being gone (like Sylvie). Mobius is lost without Loki, he can't live without him, whereas Sylvie can. This just solidifies how real their love is. Loki watching over Mobius and smiling upon hearing his voice was not only insanely romantic but also solidifies whom that “for you” was truly meant for. “For you” was for Mobius. “For all of us” was for his found family. (sorry this got so long i just think their love story is very impactful)

this. all of this.

[bushs-world]

Circular Theory of Time and Loki series

There was this question that has been the bane of my existence for 2 years now and seeing the promo art only made me think harder about it. That is

If HWR set up the TVA after winning the multiversal war, then how did it still exist after Sylvie unleashed the multiverse. Why didn't it just cease to exist until HWR set it up again?

Now this question has always made me scratch my head in confusion because imo, the TVA shouldn't have existed until after HWR won the war and Sylvie had just opened the multiverse so how did we make such a big jump?

I know many people would just call it #bad writing or a plothole coz the writers didn't know what they were doing, but I did try thinking about it and that's when I started researching the circular theory of time which I think can explain it.

If anyone is interested, this is a good article that kinda gives an idea of what it is without confusing it further. Also if I make a mistake, let me know ☺️

(*it's going to get super confusing and scientific so strap on or dont lol).

Linear Theory of Time

Ok, the way we usually experience time in the physical form can be summed up by the Linear Theory of Time. According to this theory, time passes in a straight line. Everything has a beginning and an end, and often one action leads to another. Hence, once you do something it creates a domino effect for future events but the future events cannot occur until the present action is done.

For eg, if you slip on ice, you sprain your ankle but your ankle can only be sprained after you have slipped on ice. It can't be sprained without the slipping of ice aka the butterfly effect

Circular Theory of Time

The circular theory of time states that time is actually a circle. It is cyclic and repetitive. The end is the beginning. This is how time passes as we measure it. The day leads to night which again leads to day. The end of the year is also the beginning of the year.

Brad Skow's Block Universe Theory of Time

Brad Skow, a professor at MIT (check link) has proposed a theory where he states that time does not pass as we assume it to. Instead it's like a stretched fabric of space time continium where the past, present and future all exist at the same time but we only experience the time in which we exist. He compares it to a spotlight, highlighting a particular thing and that the spotlight could be moved to another thing.

TVA and Time

Now, the fun part. How does time work in the MCU and specifically in the Loki series?

Now, time in the series is circular in the series. The sacred timeline is a circle as shown in episode 6. The window behind HWR is a symbol of the circularity of life representing life, death and rebirth. Even his gambit is circular where his end restarts the war so that he can win again and repeat everything.

But despite this, the agents in s1 were made to believe time and the sacred timeline was linear. All the TVA videos show it as a straight line instead of a circle. When Loki asks Mobius how it all ends in episode 2, he saws the time keepers are toiling in their chambers untangling the future. Ravonna takes about the end of time where it all ends.

But when we think about it, the end of time in the void is also the beginning of the next multiversal timeline after Sylvie unleashes it. The place where it ends is the place where it starts.

Another thing to notice is that the TVA can access all of time at their will, just like how Brad Skow proposed in his theory by locking the location to that particular time period. The past, present and future all exists at the same time for them and they can access any point of it since they reside outside of space time.

So how does the TVA exist?

This theory supports the fact that as soon as Sylvie unleashed the multiverse everything pertaining to the multiversal war started happening all at once. So we didn't need to wait for HWR to win it since there's a point in time where he already won and set up the TVA whereas another point of time (the one we are following in the MCU) where Kang has just appeared. This changes the scope of the multiversal war imo coz if Loki and the heroes can go to the exact monent the war starts or HWR wins, they already have knowledge of what's to happen and can just change its variables

Another thing I just realised is that there has to be a significant portion of the sacred timeline and the looped multiverse where TVA are just pruning and killing off the multiverse to create the sacred timeline.

So yeah, that's that.

[work-your-loki]

i'm once again thinking of the narrative choice the show made to not allow loki and sylvie to realize their feelings organically and independently, but rather have them literally be planted in their heads by a (biased) outsider.

i'm once again thinking that in the same scene this theory was introduced, it was called sick and twisted.

i'm thinking about the very specific acting choices in that scene.

about how sophia di martino doesn't once call it love in the interview, but "those feelings" and "that way".

about the choice not to show us the discussion in the car and to allow us to see or hear sylvie's reaction. about leaving it up to interpretation what loki was going to say before he got pruned.

about how if loki is on a hero's journey and is meant to overcome his flaws, and we assume he's a narcissist (still not sold on this), falling in love with another version of himself is not overcoming, it's just indulging.

about how quick showrunners were to confirm that it's a romance, which feels so odd, since they're usually a lot more coy and teasing about such things.

I'm thinking about michael waldron saying he pitched the show as a love story, but kate herron saying they decided to hone in on the loki/sylvie connection later in the filming process. and about how she was careful to say "not necessarily romantic".

about how something just feels different about the show. maybe it's the fact that so many women are involved behind the scenes? the complete absence of toxic masculinity that permeates so many other mcu projects? can't quite put my finger on it, but i'm feeling it all the same.

i'm thinking about that article that first broke the news that the show would confirm loki's bisexuality (true) and that he would have one female (true) and one male love interest (false/still pending?) was that idea scraped?

i'm thinking about the tired and overused cliche of the central trio consisting of one male hero, his emotional support male sidekick, and the spiffy, tomboyish female love interest (sylvie is obviously, and thankfully, far more complex than that). I'm thinking about how I was writing a story, I would love to subvert that, and how much fun it would be to first tell the story the regular, "normal" way, the way people are expecting it to play out.

about how this a show about loki, the ultimate trickster, but we haven't had a proper trick or twist yet. but if we did, and you went back and watched the entire series with fresh eyes, the narrative would still hold and you could say "ah, yes, i see where they were going with this."

about that line from frigga "always so perceptive about everyone but yourself" being repeated in the first episode and mobius saying "you do know yourself" and loki still getting it wrong.

about the strong visual choice to keep loki in the TVA outfit, which could have many thematic reasons, but at the same time always serves as a constant visual connection, always keeps them matching. especially in the last episode with everyone wearing outlandish, fantasy outfits.

i'm thinking about how we all immediately labeled it the "supermarket divorce", because it just felt like that. if you were writing this as a love triangle, would you have filmed that scene any other way? or would you have kept it exactly as it was?

about how the fandom is picking up vibes via fanart and memes that are immediately echoed in the next episodes. about all the fanfiction tropes we are so used to see confined in our corner of the internet, but we are so readily identifying on the show.

and ultimately i'm thinking that this post is probably going to age like milk by wednesday, but we only have a one day left where all timelines can still exist, before canon prunes all our theories and headcanons and hopes, so i want to go out full on clowning and not dreading.

EDIT: because this post gained more traction than i thought it would, I'm editing to say that you should also read this and this for a fuller picture and to make sure no one gets their feelings hurt by fictional bastards and money-grabbing capitalists.

[lucianalight]

Why can't I help feeling that if Mobius had shown Loki this memories he would have said Odin had died because Loki had banished him. Same about Thor. Your brother is dead and you too are dead because of Mad Titan. These memories were very well manipulated. Loki doesn't know Odin would have sentenced him to death. He doesn't know that he would stay in a cell for a year. That Frigga defend Odin's bad parenting. That Frigga died because of Aether, not Loki's words. That Thor is alive!

I completely agree with you. That is what Mobius would have done. What he did was psychological manipulation and gaslighting. He lied and explained the events in a way to break Loki's walls and make him vulnerable to accept his POV and offer. Which is actually a method of torture in interrogation that is specially used on political prisoners where I live. The part when Mobius lied that Loki was responsible for his mother's death specifically reminded me of them and made me sick to my stomach. What they do is that during many physical and psychological torture sessions they tell the prisoner who is been kept in isolation from the outside world for so long(in solitary confinement with no contact to their family), that one of their parents(usually their mother) has died as a result of their political acts of resistance and fights(because they couldn't bear so much worry and anxiety for their child in prison). This usually results in the prisoner breaking and accepting whatever they want from them and in some cases it cause them to commit suicide.

Now imagine what kind of psychological torture Loki went through by what Mobius said to him, right after his time with Thanos and his history of suicide. Which is why I'm baffled that many fans and also the creators consider it as therapeutic and what Loki "needed"! I don't expect that people be aware of this form of torture. But I thought the difference between psychological manipulation and a therapy session is obvious. Apparently not. I guess they think Loki needed that because they see him a villain who deserve this.

And don't get me start on thinking that Mobius cares about Loki, or according to creators he is inherently good! You don't constantly belittle, manipulate and insult the person you care about. Mobius is an agent specializing in catching dangerous variants. So the way he sees Loki is a tool to help to him catch this variant who is escaping TVA and for doing that he uses every way he knows like psychological manipulation and using Loki's weakness against him.

The idea that Mobius is inherently good is laughable. He is working for a fascistic/totalitarian organization that inflict its will on people, killing them(according to Miss Minutes introduction for sth as unimportant as being late for work!), doing acts of slaughter an genocide because someone dared to break the rules of their "sacred timeline"! Rules that no one knows exist in the first place! And he is OK with all of that and has the audacity to condemn Loki for his actions under mind influence and torture. And he doesn't question his ideology. Even when Loki challenges him to do so, because it gives him his glorious purpose. He is the example of every person who works in corrupted systems because it gives them some privilege and they're so lazy and inconsiderate in thinking, that they don't care how it affects the people who are suffering or being oppressed. Sure, he shows care and emotions towards some people, but selected morality is not inherent goodness. To TVA and Mobius the law breakers are not even people, they're "variants" and they don't treat the variants like beings who have right to exist and choose their own path.

In fact, Mobius and on a larger scale some of the TVA agents are the exact examples of the concept of banality of evil . That evil acts are not necessarily done by evil people. Instead, they can simply be the result of bureaucrats dutifully obeying orders. People who don't consider the consequences of their actions and don't question the propaganda and ideology they have been brainwashed with.

[woodelf68]

I agree with you about Loki. It was great seeing him finally shed the cubicle worker look (although his horns were oddly dull and tarnished looking?) but if he's supposed to sit there for the rest of his life feeding his magic into those branches to keep them alive? Yeah, that's not the fate I want for him, and surely even "gods" as he calls himself need to eat and sleep and all that and he can't survive indefinitely? I'm just picturing an emaciated corpse sitting there after a while and hell no. And I'm still confused about the necessity of it. If Victor Timely created the Loom, then things existed for a long time without it being needed; why not just let things revert back to their natural order? If (having looked this up) the destruction of the Loom destroyed the power source of the TVA, then GOOD, let everyone return to a life on the timeline and stop playing gods. If it means that all the multiverse branches disappear and only the Sacred Timeline remains, then I'm perfectly fine with that too? They haven't shown me any timelines where any of the characters I cared about survived or Asgard remained undestroyed, so why should I care about them? I'd rather think of sacred timeline!Loki having found peace in Valhalla than thinking of this variant enduring a horrific isolated existence out there cut off from everyone and everything; if his body can survive somehow (because he's outside of time?) then I really can't see him not going mad and losing his mind after a while. As you say, it's not something I would wish on anyone; let alone the better future I had hoped for this Loki. The only way I could find this bearable is to hope that it's a temporary state and that there will either be a season three or a movie where this Loki and sacred timeline!Thor find each other, since someone associated with the show (I forget who0 was hinting that that was the hoped for end goal, if they could get Loki "in the right place" for such a meeting.

And you're also right that the way they pushed Sylvie forward so heavily as a main character in the first season and then pulled her back in this one felt extremely uneven. I'm guessing it might have had something to do with new people taking over this season as head writer and director? It's not so very different from the inconsistencies we've seen from one Thor movie to another.

Also, I think we're supposed to gather that Loki spent centuries at the TVA learning everything that he asked OB about? And who knows how many times stuck in a time loop sending Timely out to be killed? God, that's depressing. I need fix-it fics.

Okay so not directly sub-tumbling as I've seen this around a few places now, but re: Loki S2 finale I'm annoyed about the ship-baiting aspect, and disappointed with the weird "let's never address this" but it's the tree thing that I hate. I just can't not see that as horrifc and depressing and actually quite mean-spirited? It's a gut-level thing for me, and I was so confused that so many people love it and I don't know if I will ever not see it a nightmareish fate for any character.

I mean sylki (and lokius too, for that matter) is mostly just kind of... not addressed. I've had pairings in far worse states than that and after a day or two I've shrugged and carried on as before. It's not like they broke up, we're still at where we started S2 which is "they need to have one conversation that wouldn't even take that long and then they'll be pretty much fine." Hence the disappointment/annoyance, because how the fuck do six episodes pass without that conversation ever happening? How can the central relationship not progress in any way whatsoever? But like I said, I've dealt with worse.

Nah, it's definitely the time-tree that's got to me most. I wouldn't inflict that on a character I hated. What's the point in being powerful and being The Most Important Person if you can never speak to anyone ever again, nor move from the one spot you're basically welded to, and all you can do is watch the world(s) and your friends move on, which is probably comforting for about a day or two until it becomes more frustrating and taunting than soothing. I just Do Not Get It. How is that a happy ending? How is that a worthwhile destiny (even leaving aside that the beating-destiny-cos-that's-not-really-a-thing theme was one of my favourite of the things that went missing in the gap between S1 and S2) for anyone?

I'd probably just have killed the person I loved at that point, to be shamefully honest. Yeah I'd feel bad about it and guilty for being selfish but fuck it I'm not spending eternity as a Funko Pop for anyone. They'll be dead, they won't mind! I can absolutely argue the case for murdering my beloved being the path of least suffering by far! For both of us! Because oh my fucking god. The horror, the horror.