#i know i said no elden ring theories but HEAR ME OUT-

[eyestrain-addict]

You: Messmer is Miquellas version of Radagon

Me, an insane person: Messmer is Melinas version of Radagon

[oo-artsy-oo]

What if the hornsent were trying to make empyreans with the Saint Jars? The hornsent seemed to have created the divine tower but why did they never ascend? And Marika, a Shaman, is able to betray them and “steal” godhood?

The Shaman, which may have been Numen women, possibly arrived on the boats found on the Cerulean coast, are used in this pot ritual as a kind of glue.

These shaman were able to ‘meld’ with the flesh of others. Possibly being the ingredient that ties all the souls and flesh together, a Shaman is a person who can interact with spirits, maybe as well as unifying them physically by melding the flesh together, the Shamans are able to unify the spirits, maybe not into one soul, but unify their goals or intentions.

Not all Shaman are empyreans though, to be clear. Empyreans are beings who are deemed fit to become a god.

The known empyreans are:

Miquella

Melania

Marika

Ranni

An interesting part of all of these characters is their ability to “split” their soul into two or more beings, or at least, share their very being with another.

Miquella + St Trina

Melania + her daughters (the god of Rot)

Marika + Radagon

Ranni + ???

In Ranni’s case, I’m unsure of what her split identity was. It is stated: Ranni had her own empyrean flesh slain. She, like Melina, is a bodiless soul and since we don’t hear much about Ranni before she became what she is currently, we can’t really know what it was that made her worthy as an empyrean.

So, what is an Empyrean?

As I said before, Empyreans are those who are fit to become a god. But what actually makes them worthy?

To become a God, an empyrean must align themselves with the influence of an outer god, and become its vassal. Watching Miquella’s ascent to godhood, shows us that he needs to divest himself of his flesh, he also divests certain psychological aspects, such as his doubts and his love.

So to become a God, one must divest themselves of their flesh? Things that tie them to the corporeal realm.

The Vitruvian man shows an image of a man posed two different ways, one, which fits perfectly within a square and one that goes beyond the bounds of the square to fit within a circle. In regard to the vitruvian man, the man in the square, is mean to represent earthliness, being rooted within the confines of the mortal/material world. The man in the circle, is mean to represent the infinite or divinity.

In regards to Marika and radagon, their statues always portray them in unique poses. Radagon is always standing straight, head held high and his arm out to the side at a 90° angle. Marika on the other hand is often standing with her head stooped low as if looking down, her arms are curved upwards, her hands meeting the height of her head.

To me, this shows that Radagon represents the corporeal and/or human aspects, this is further shown by Radagon’s fervent faith and loyalty to divinity, he is looking up to the heavens and is depicted in front of a lattice which could symbolise support. He attempted to mend the Elden ring by implementing this lattice into its very design.

Whereas Marika, she represents the divine and eternal aspects, from the point of view of those seeing the statues, Marika’s likeness would be looking down at them, divinity is always shown to be superior to those stuck in the corporeal plain. She is also depicted in front of a shawl styled similarly to velificatio (a stylistic way to depict deities in ancient Roman art). The shawl may also be a depiction of her veil.

Back to the Vitruvian man, the theory behind this artwork is that a human is both earthly and divine, having aspects of both plains.

This is shown in the empyreans with their two seperate personas. Maybe, the way one becomes a god, is to divest themselves of their corporeal aspects and give themselves to an outer god. Miquella, in becoming a god divested himself of St. Trina, and Marika must’ve divested herself of Radagon. This doesn’t mean that those parts of themselves are killed, as St. Trina is not dead and neither is Radagon. Similarly with Malenia, it is said that after defeating her, she will “bloom” once more and become a god. Interestingly, all of her daughters kill eachother in battle, which would divest her of her human aspects, and yet it is said that even those ‘children’ will bloom again, becoming scarlet Valkyrie’s.

All of the current empyreans have shaman blood through Marika/Radagon. And since shamans have the ability to meld with others, maybe that aspect of them is what makes them eligible to become gods? Being able to meld with their chosen outergod.

Also, I don’t believe Miquella joined with an outer god. He created the unalloyed gold, able to propel outer gods. Miquella became his own god, creating his own order, abandoning the Elden ring (this can be shown in his circlet’s description.)

Anyway, another rant xD

[umbiedecoder]

hi i’m just here to gush about the omen twins (and just omens in general) from just stuff i’ve picked up on.

so first things first, let’s start with the easy stuff (that like everyone knows): their opinions of themselves/outlook on their race. morgott is clearly ashamed of being an omen, he shaves his horns, he wears rags, yadda yadda yadda. mohg is like… the exact opposite, he wears extravagant clothes, he owns real estate (mohgwyn palace), he has a polycule (the bloody fingers), etc.

time for me to talk about them individually.

Morgott:

THIS MAN’S LIFE STORY IS GUT PUNCH AFTER GUT PUNCH AND YOU DO NOT GET A BREAK. IT IS UNIVERSALLY AWFUL AND HE DOESNT DESERVE A SINGLE SECOND OF IT.

first of all, when comparing his horns to Mohg’s, they grow in an entirely different way. Morgott’s horns grow out; and they resemble a crown. when you see Morgott, you go “Wow, that is certainly an interesting looking human being.”

i think it’s very clearly implied that the erdtree decides when someone has exhausted their usefulness, and when that happens, they turn into that dust we see upon killing enemies. so let’s think for a second, how many bosses don’t do that when they die? ONE. AND ITS MORGOTT. do you know how long it keeps me up at night to know that this man had it SO BAD that LITERALLY GOD let his body sit around just long enough that he could finally hear some kind of approval from someone who loved him.

not only is he kept around, his horns are excised by the erdtree, the erdtree literally excises the omen """curse""" (i’ll get to why that’s in quotes) from him, as a final act of mercy, FUCK.

Mohg:

this guy.

this. fuckin. guy.

let me preface with this: Mohg is an animal. i don’t mean that in like a hateful way, it’s genuinely how he is portrayed.

let’s start with the horns, just like Morgott. Mohg’s doesn’t shave them, but unlike Morgott, whose unshaved horns grow out and up, Mohg’s grow in, they wrap around themselves. exhibited in rams and boars, their horns will dig into their skin as they grow, if you look at Mohg’s big ugly face for longer than two seconds you’ll notice that he is also exhibiting said phenomena.

Mohg is, by design, a monster. you see his wings, you look at his jagged teeth and twisting horns and go, “Woah, is this a new species in the lands between, is he the last of them” and when you read his lore, BAM. HES AN OMEN.

also, i think it is so telling of Morgott’s opinion of his brother in that cutscene with the thrones; Morgott lists the runebearers, except Mohg. i don’t know if there really is a reason for that beyond “Why would Mohg have a throne?” but i like to think it’s Morgott protecting(?) Mohg, or atleast keeping him hidden from us by simply not acknowledging him. Mohgwyn Dynasty and the bloody fingers are likely one of the biggest threats to the golden order, and I highly doubt that Morgott would just let that slide, he must have a reason for not searching for his brother, and i believe it’s willful ignorance.

FINALLY, I PRESENT A THEORY TO YOU ALL.

so, this theory was presented to me by my friend Mita, and it’s a great one. she suggests that the omens are linked to the erdtree and that Marika invented the stigma around them because that interferes with the order, and that theory is just GRAHHH it’s so good.

so fun fact, after a mistranslation of the bible, many statues of moses have him horns. if you’ve played elden ring past the intro, you’ve probably noticed all of the catholic imagery.

isn’t that INTERESTING???

isn’t that. isn’t that just so COOL????

MISTRANSLATION.

HORNS.

i personally believe that those statues of moses are the biggest inspiration for the omens, and that the curse really isn’t a curse at all.

anyways. i don’t know how to end this, if you read all of this i commend you but also i’m so sorry.

[ishaslife]

ELDEN RING theory: Messmer is Radagon and Marika's son ?

Okay okay okay, guys...

Messmer in the new elden ring DLC trailer. I have questions and also some answers. My first thoughts were:

Red hair = Radagon but also, Serpents = God-devouvering Serpent/Rykard but then I paid attention to his dialogue...

I wonder if he is an offshoot or child of Marika and Radagon, he has the golden eyes and the red hair, he's also massive yet he wields red flame (like those of the giants) and Radagon was known to despise his red hair due to red hair being associated with giants (likely hinting that he had giant blood) So, crazy theory but I wonder if Messmer was Radagon and Marika's child before She came into power and he was actually a bit cookoo so his record was basically stripped from the history books. Like, Miyazaki said:

“There was this piece of key art where it shows Messmer sat in this throne-like chair, and people who’ve played the game may recognize this throne to be one of those from the boss room where you battle Morgott. And this represents the thrones at the base of the Erdtree. And it’s supposed to symbolize that Messmer stands on equal footing to these other demigods and children of Marika who sat around in these thrones and held the rooms of the Erdtree.”

Also,

According to Miyazaki, during the DLC we’ll “learn a little about why he wasn’t featured in the legends of the Erdtree, the lands between.”

So, my theory is that he is Radagon and Marika's exiled child. As in his dialogue, he says:

"Mother, woulds't thou truly lordship sanction in one so bereft of light?"

He's basically saying, "Mum [Marika] you really let this dude become lord? A graceless tarnished?"

As to why they exiled him to this land or, as Miyazaki said, "[we'll learn] why he wasn't mentioned in the legends of the Erdtree, the lands between"? I don't really know. Perhaps he represented everything The Greater Will wished to leave behind, i.e. Serpents, dragons (his helm has dragon wings), flame etc.

I like to think that where we're going is the same universe but an alternate dimension which I think Miyazaki has somewhat confirmed so perhaps time passes differently over there.

I don't want to be too concrete in how or when Messmer was born, it could be that he was born while Marika was ruling or perhaps when she was still an Empyrean, he might also be the offshoot created when Marika and Radagon merged (if they weren't always one being.) Perhaps, he is all the bad qualities of Marika and Radagon. The red hair of the giants, the deceitful serpents growing out of him, the flame (probably of the giants) that can burn the erdtree. It's as if they expelled all the faults that didn't align with the nature and principles of the golden order into Messmer and locked him away in another realm.

Hear me out but perhaps the echo Melina tells us in Marika's bed chamber isn't about shattering the elden ring but the moment when Messmer was conceived/made. She says:

"Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a God. Let us be shattered both, mine other self."

At first, I thought she says this to convince him to shatter the elden ring with her but the dialogue can be interpreted in so many ways that even this interpretion might be wrong. Perhaps, her calling Radagon her "other self," has two meanings: one, that he is her male aspect/alter ego and two, he is her other half, like, her significant other. So perhaps this was a conversation between them right when they decided to become one being, splitting from one another whenever they saw fit and their literal shattering of bodies/souls against one another is what gave birth to Messmer. Of course, I don't know the specifics of merging with someone so this just very crazy speculation.

(I suggest don't pay too much credence to this theory above, it's mostly just rambling but it is possible, you never know.)

We know offshoots are a thing since there are Malenia's daughters (Millicent and her sisters) and Malenia was an Empyrean just like her mother so it'd make sense if Marika/Radagon also made an offshoot.

Regardless, one thing (I think at least) I'm fairly certain of is that Messmer is son to Radagon and Marika and that he is also definitely associated with the giants in some way, perhaps decended from them much like Radagon or played some part in their downfall. And I think I'll have to delve even deeper into the dialogue and watch the trailer frame by frame to be able to decipher more lol.