#i know Larian doesn't want him to be “the Trauma Character”

[feral-futch]

[JanetGoodPlaceNotAGirl.gif]

but like... that is so very Real And Same of you tbh

also sorry about the literal max amount of tags on this; I do think you will enjoy them though probably? 😅

I could get over anything as long as I have something new to be obsessed with

[aristenfromwarsaw]

Another gameplay and again I have a scene that I've seen many times and still love it. BG3 has many beautiful scenes, but this is my favorite. It's also my favorite romance scene I've had in a game romance. ❤️ Why do I love this scene so much? ❤️ Let's analyze 🥰.

Note: the scene I am analyzing is the version after defeating Yurgir.

~ I really appreciate romance scenes that are not based on erotica. There is zero erotica here and it is not necessary to show the emotions and feelings of the characters. I think that this scene is very romantic in its own way.

~ Beautiful portrayal of the character's trauma and his attitude towards himself. Astarion has very low self-esteem, he believes that he is not able to offer anything to another person except a passionate night. He is very surprised when Tav hugs him - someone sees in him something more than a one-night sex partner. Also he is not used to this type of touch - touch without any sexual contention from someone who really feels something for him. At first he is paralyzed, he doesn't know what to do next. Later he is calm, relaxed, you can see that he needed this hug.

~ Here we have the real Astarion, without the mask. An elf who has been broken, who doesn't know how to be with another person, he is confused and lost.

~ Neil's acting, his voice breaking when Astarion says that he doesn't know how to be with another person, although he really wants to. By the way I love about Neil that from his voice we can tell when Astarion is putting on a mask and when he is sincere.

~ I consider this scene (and the entire Astarion romance) to be a huge reward for the player. Astarion is in "survival at all costs" mode and he is not interested in others. But you're the only person he's interested in, also he wants to have with you serious relationship. You showed him kindness, interest in his problems. Someone finally listened to him after over 200 years. It's very sad, but also very beautiful.

To all the people from Larian who were involved in this scene - thank you ! You did a great job and one of the most beautiful romance in games ❤️.

[fourraccoonsinacoat]

Just something that's been swirling around in my mind regarding Astarion, and I don't think I've seen much discussion about it.

I see a lot of pro-ascended peeps say that when Astarion stays a spawn, he stays a spawn because the player character convinces him to, and that Astarion truly wanted to ascend. They say this is proven by what spawn Astarion says if you breakup with him after defeating the brain - he gets upset and talks about "everything he sacrificed."

I'm not here to argue spawn vs. ascended - though I have a dissertation about the cycle of abuse and fear-based decision making ready to go for anyone who wants to seriously argue in favor of the ascended route being healthy.

What I am here to argue, is that maybe someone who literally just a few months ago - if that - escaped their abuser after years of torment, and who just days ago watched that abuser die...maybe that person isn't fully healed and is reacting out of pain and defense.

Maybe that person is still healing and honestly isn't fully sure in that moment if they made the right decision. Maybe that person needs some time to process life altering events, and maybe it will take some time before they are 100% comfortable with the decision they made, eventhough they know it was what was best for them.

Anyone who expects Astarion to be 100% healed and happy with everything at the end of the game has likely never experienced life altering trauma. That shit can take a lifetime to recover from. There's a reason it's life altering...

I'm so damn glad Larian depicts spawn Astarion realistically at the end of the game. He isn't healed, he's healing. Things will trigger him, he'll doubt and second guess himself, and that's okay because that's what happens when you're healing.

His response in that scene just feels real to me. And it sure as hell doesn't say to me that he wished he'd ascended. It says to me that he's still working towards healing, and I think that's really cool that a studio would depict a character so realistically.

[bananasfosterparent]

The difference in AA is his soul being irreversibly gone. That is the point and this is what Larians writers have been hinting at and this is what irks people about AA. The oversexualisation and erasure of his trauma, effectively erasing him as a person. I know we're talking about a fictional character, but if we're gonna go off on the topic, saying something "doesn't matter" is just a cop-out. Astarion didn't need to be "fixed" to the point of emotional lobotomy.

I don't think it's wrong to like or prefer him, but I think it's valid to have opinion on the matter, much like you have yours.

I started to apologize for the length of this, but honestly, since you sent the message, I'm going to respond to every part of it. I'm not sorry for the rambling lol

"The difference in AA is his soul being irreversibly gone."

Okay, show me the quote/scene/dialog in-game where this canonly is said and confirmed? Where does it say the ritual will ever touch his soul or any part of the game talks about his literal soul?

And if by soul you mean the "lose who you are inside" as a metaphor, that's still a matter of opinion and not actually canonly what happens. Astarion is still himself. The "changes" in his personality are shifts to simply adjust to the company he is around. He's essentially code switching.

That is the point and this is what Larians writers have been hinting at and this is what irks people about AA.

Got it. So the point of Astarion's romance is for Larian to write a singular story that has one ending you're "supposed" to enjoy with a "morally good" conclusion, and one ending that's fun and sexy, but "supposed" to be a cautionary warning of how things "shouldn't go". Because that makes sense for a "choose your own adventure" game and that's why the romance stops with AA as soon as you ascend him, and he enslaves and compels your character and you can't continue the romance with him--OH WAIT.

The oversexualisation and erasure of his trauma, effectively erasing him as a person

"The oversexualization".... So you know my Tav's personal motivations and why she chose to ascend him? And you're confident you know I made the roleplay decisions I made because you know it centers entirely and solely around it being to sexualize him?

Interesting.

Because that couldn't be further from the truth. My Tav has an entire story for why she chose to ascend him and it has nothing to do with how sexy it makes him. And it was a story I came up with well before I knew about any of this "sexualization" concept. And as a player, I didn't ascend him because I wanted a sexy vampire. I went into his romance blind and had no idea what would happen when I did it. I ascended him because it narratively made sense for my character and their relationship. But even then, if I wanted a sexy vampire, why is that a bad thing? He's not real.

And I find it so ironic that a lot of spawn fans who are anti-AA only enjoy AA for the sexual parts of that ending. Yet, we're the ones "oversexualizing" him lol

As for "erasure of his trauma"... where do I even start? What does that even mean? lol I'm not gonna lie. You sound young or unaware, but believe it or not, in real life there is more than one way to deal with trauma. And dealing with it in a way you don't agree with doesn't erase the trauma or mean the person is pretending it never happened. Ascended Astarion very much addresses his trauma and exercises a different form of healing.

In a fantasy world, you can actually explore those other options and have the outcome work FOR you, even if it wouldn't in real life. Accepting your fate and trying to align yourself with "morally good" choices is certainly not a bad thing and one way to go. In real life, that's what I agree with, as a Christian and believer in Christ. But Faerun doesn't have a Jesus. They don't have the same real world ideas of morals. They have their own gods, their own history, their own moral perspective outside of our world. Bringing in (your perspective of) our real world morals is a valid way to roleplay, but it's not the "only correct" way to roleplay.

There is the route of overthrowing what was meant to control and destroy you, and taking control of it yourself. Taking what was meant to be against you and making it work for you instead. For me, that's what Astarion's ascension means.

A smaller example of this is if you give Astarion Gandrel's crossbrow to use.

This weapon was designed to work against vampire spawn. It allows for its user to possibly inflict Turn Undead on enemies and gives them advantage in a fight against monster types. And yet, Astarion can wield it and use it effectively. He can take what was created to hurt and destroy him and use it to work for him.

Ascension can be the exact same thing. It's not a matter of which opinion of ascension is morally right. It's a matter of which decision on ascension is right for your Tav and their story with Astarion.

...saying something "doesn't matter" is just a cop-out.

Can you show me where I said "something" "doesn't matter"? Cause it wasn't in any of my recent posts. Are you referring to one of my older ones?

Not only do I not know what part of what post you're referring to, BUT I also don't know what I was talking about, if I even said "something" doesn't matter. I don't know what that "something" is.

Astarion didn't need to be "fixed" to the point of emotional lobotomy.

I'm glad we agree on something. I've seen people claim ascension is "fixing" him (because it eliminates the negative traits of vampirism) and therefore it's weird to call anti-AA spawn fans "fixers". But the difference is trying to change(fix) his morals and view of the world to reflect a "good" worldview (the spawn ending) VS trying to change (fix) his circumstances and lack of control (helping his ascend).

AA fans do not want to change his personality or his mental/emotional state. We want to change his circumstances so that he has a place to be able to make those decisions on his own. And for most of us, Ascension provides that perspective.

Spawn fans want the same thing. But the approach is more to convince him from the inside out that he can make those decisions without ascension. And that's also true. But not more valid or the only way.

But his personality does not change in either ending. In one (spawn ending), he is able to find freedom in just being free of Cazedor and exist the way he always has with a newfound confidence and peace.

In another, he is able to find freedom in taking the helm himself, and holding all the cards to be the one on top. He finds confidence in having the power and being able to wield it, without fear of anything he's had to fear with the negatives of vampirism.

But in both, he is still the same person. He still gets joy out of the same things (killing people, having/causing/observing bloodshed, and causing some chaos), he still has the same personality. The difference is in his circumstances and how he presents himself.

I don't think it's wrong to like or prefer him, but I think it's valid to have opinion on the matter, much like you have yours.

You don't mean that. Because if you did, you wouldn't have a reason to send this anon message in the first place. You wouldn't care enough. It wouldn't matter. You wouldn't have this opinion. You would be able to see value in both endings and respect the positive perspective of ascension even if you don't understand it, without arguing headcanon points like "his soul is irreversibly gone".

Your entire message is literally you trying to tell me it's wrong to like him and that the opinion I have of him is invalid and wrong. I already respect your opinion on both sides of him. Because it's your right to how you roleplay and see him. If you respect mine, you're doing a really awful job at showing it.

Regardless, if that is your intention or not. That's what sending this message says. If you really want to say you respect AA fans for enjoying AA, then stop sending AA fans messages like this and either completely avoid AA and the fans or refrain from trying to argue against it. We can discuss it and not agree while also respecting each other's roleplay choices.

This is not a wrong vs right conversation. It's a "what's your preference?" conversation. Spawn vs Ascended should be like "what's your favorite Pokemon type?"

The sooner that is realized, the better off this fandom will be.

[delta-lethonomia]

ok depresso week is over, back to deliberate hyperfixation on bg3:

It is absolutely wild to me that people take Astarion to the foursome with the drow twins (romanced, spawn, post-cazador) and are shocked, shocked I tell you, that he has a bad time. But it leads me to think that there's an interesting conversation to be had here about morality applied to video games. I'm going to be using what's a bit of a strawman tbh, what I would consider an archetypical, "good person" gamer for this niche example.

(3k essay under the cut about irl morals vs video game behavior, my take on why Astarion agrees to the orgy, beating the dead horse of Astarion discourse now that the fandom has cooled off enough I might not get flogged for it, and all my election stress being translated into an increasingly bitchy narrative voice that I hope is at least mildly amusing.)

"Good Person Gamer" romances Astarion. They're probably female, which I am mentioning exclusively so I can turn that into "Good Girl Gamer" 😏, or G3. G3 picks nice dialogue options. G3 tries to support their companions, and finds diplomatic and moral solutions to problems. G3 saved the tieflings. G3 still romances Astarion because he's hot, and vulnerable, and it's not like he forces you to be evil - he just complains a bit when you save kittens stuck in trees, but you get that approval back anyway just by being nice to him. Talk him out of Ascension and you've proven to yourself he's got a good soul under all that attitude anyway. He'd healed! You banged on his grave! It's all good now!

The brothel is fun. The drow twins are hot. It's always fun when games lets you do spicy things like have threesomes and orgies! We're sex-positive! Look, the drow twins said they love their job! It's totally fine! G3, as most people, probably does not do these things in real life, but that's the fun in video games: you get to be someone you're not.

And then Astarion noticeably dissociates. He throws himself in the center and lavishes everyone with attention; he's a professional, you know. Even an unromanced Tav/Durge notices something's off, and Astarion replies something along the lines of "you don't have the right to look at me like that," presumably with worry, distress, or sympathy.

G3 is upset. They did everything right - they didn't want to hurt him, and Astarion himself said he wanted this. Why couldn't they stop midway through and remind him that he doesn't have to hurt himself? Why couldn't they talk about it afterwards, and clear the air? LARIAN WHY DO YOU HURT ME

Now, to all the G3's out there: if you were dating a person with extensive sexual trauma, having been raped literally thousands of times, would you suggest having a threesome/orgy? With prostitutes, if that's better or worse? Putting them on the spot before your mutual friends? Would you wait a few years to mention the idea, or would you do so only weeks/months into a relationship? Your first "I love you" might have only been yesterday.

And most people, I think, would say "No." Writing that scenario outside of the lens of a video game makes it sound insane - of course you wouldn't! I'm not saying that they should never have group sex or that it can't be done, but I think most people instinctively get how that would be a shitty thing to do in that context, especially without discussing it in depth beforehand and making sure you're both on the same page.

And this is the meat of the issue. Most gamers play good-aligned characters: there's a strong culture of wanting to play the hero and saving the day. But tied into that cultural monomyth, in society itself, is the idea that sex is a reward at the end. You get sex at the end of the romance arc. The date where you have sex is one of many milestones, and you're not really dating if you haven't done it yet. Some people don't have sex until their wedding night. Threesome scenes especially are a video game classic: old-school God of War, for instance, had a hidden room in every game with scantily-clad women just waiting for you to button-mash away, a little treat for the player's keen puzzle-solving abilities.

Not all romances in BG3 have sex or end with sex, (some even start with sex), but that is because BG3's character writing tries to ground itself in reality despite being a medium people utilize for fantasy. Role-playing a "good" character is mostly easy: you typically know which dialogue choice is the ethical choice, can chide Astarion for being racist, can save the numerous children with moral ease - and BG3 rewards this: a good playthrough is more fleshed out, because you haven't killed off half the cast. You get better gear. You have more allies, better allies. You know what to do.

Or, well, mostly. BG3 is kind of special imo because even the good choices have a lot of nuance, where two people can make different choices but still feel like they both picked the most ethical one. Take Shadowheart's parents, for example: they beg for her to let them go so they can die and save their daughter. Saving them leaves Shadowheart in Shar's clutches - she will experience pain for the rest of her life, but regains her parents, and with luck, Selûne will claim her soul when she dies. Kill them, and Shadowheart is free - truly free, to live her life on her own terms, free from Shar and Selûne both. Both can be the ethical choice, depending on your morals.

"But if Astarion didn't want to have the threesome, the game should have let me stop midway through/made it clearer that this would happen. He said no before Cazador - why couldn't he say no again? Why would Larian put me in this position and make me feel bad when I thought everything was alright? I wanted to be good and have fun, not feel like I pressured my boyfriend." - Strawman G3.

Because BG3 treats it's characters like people. Multiple companions make choices outside of what the player character decides for them - Shadowheart's decision to save or kill her parents, kill or save the Nightsong, or Gale, to go for the crown or not depend on what events they are there to witness personally, or can be informed by conversations you have in camp about unrelated issues. You can fully let them make their own decisions and be surprised each time as they develop into different people with each successive playthrough. A lot of people are surprised when Gale goes for the Crown of Karsus without their input. In my last multiplayer playthrough, we could not prevent Shadowheart from wanting to kill the Nightsong, and so we were forced to kill her.

Astarion is not like that. The way he talks about Ascension changes depending on your relationship. If you're merely friends, he acknowledges it's probably a bad idea, even, in direct contrast to the somewhat obsessive and frightening way he pursues it in a romantic relationship. But Astarion can't decide what to do at the end: he has no hidden point system, no hidden flags - he will always pursue Ascension even if he knows it's a bad idea, because Astarion does not trust himself, has no experience trusting himself, and needs help. As counter-intuitive as it may sound, he needs support to make his own decisions, because in that moment, he cannot be objective.

(If Astarion is ever objective is another story....)

So much of Astarion's reactions and opinions are instinctive and unthinking. "Don't let the pixie out of the lantern, are you an idiot?" -> "A pixie! And honest-to-goodness pixie! *giggles*"

"We don't need a urchin hanging around." -> Astarion approves if you help Yenna

etc. etc. etc. There's so many times he says one thing, the cruel thing, the "fuck everyone else, I've got mine"-thing, and then approves when you do the good thing. Astarion does not live in line with his values (besides pursuing a growing need for freedom) and he frankly does not really know what his values even are.

Astarion doesn't react with glee to finding all the people he seduced - who inadvertently raped him, though they didn't know, some lowlifes and scoundrels and people having a bad day and even some sweet, naive virgins like Sebastian, who took that smoking hot Elf on his word and followed him home, probably in disbelief someone so gorgeous would pay them any attention at all - tortured and locked in a dungeon underground. He's crushed by guilt. He's in pain. Astarion delights in you causing others pain (the torture scene) because it aligns with his worldview, the joy of seeing someone else suffer for once. But he's not a cold-hearted murderer. (And yes, I am differentiating between "adventurer kills a bandit" murder and "deliberately killing someone you know for reasons/no reason" murder.) He doesn't hurt anyone in camp - Shadowheart and Lae'zel are far more dangerous than him. You never have to stop him from drinking anyone else to death. Even if you never feed him again, never use his bite attack, he never bites anyone in camp. Despite being a vampire, Astarion is, effectively, harmless. (Bite night was about checking whether or not Cazador's old command's still worked. It's his first real attempt at freedom, proving to himself that he's free from compulsion. Hence why the roll to get him to stop is a 5, giving you a 75% likelihood of succeeding. He doesn't actually want to kill you. And you get two chances!!!)

Astarion doesn't enjoy death for the sake of death. He's terrified if you side with the goblins and kill the tieflings despite goading you into doing it. I don't doubt that he could hurt others (god knows he's got enough feelings to work out that way), but there's a significant difference between a little knife play and condemning thousands of people to be tortured in the Hells for all eternity. Sacrificing his siblings is different, because they, like him, are guilty, and deserve their deaths. He agrees to sacrifice his fellow spawn as an act of self hatred, of self harm. But all those other people stupid enough to want to sleep with him? Given a day to think about it, I think Astarion would agree that that's not right - and that's why he thanks you for preventing his Ascension. That much murder isn't him. He can be thoughtless, cruel, and unkind, but Astarion isn't a psychopath.

Take him to the brothel, and slipping back into that role, the seductive rake, it as easy as breathing. I don't think Astarion has ever thought about if he's the type of person to enjoy group sex, or even if he wants it. I don't doubt that Astarion enjoys sex, that he wants to have sex (he is, after all that, still shockingly horny), but he's just discovered the idea of having sex with someone he loves. He's riding that high. Of course he says yes: not only is he a different man now (he's free!), it's something he's done a thousand times already - maybe it'll be different this time, maybe something has changed - or maybe, an orgy was on offer, so of course Astarion is there. It's his purpose. He's been doing it for 200 years. Where else would he be?

What I'm saying is that Astarion didn't think about what sleeping with the drow twins meant for your relationship, or how he would feel about it at all. He just went for it. He had a bad time. You then don't discuss it because that would mean admitting that he finally made a choice by himself and it backfired. He didn't think, or maybe he did, and it turns out he just doesn't know himself. Why discuss it? A relationship with G3 apparently means group sex. They probably asked twice. They backtracked all the way to Wyrm's Crossing post-Cazador. Will they ask again? How many times can he say no?

In reality, in the real world, the act of asking can be the problem in and of itself. If your significant other/spouse/lover asks you to do something you don't want to do, be it a threesome, anal, opening the relationship etc, these actions have consequences. The act of asking doesn't happen in a vacuum like it does in video games: there is a cost associated with it, a gamble, and while it may pay off, it may not. Some people get worn down and agree to things they don't want to do. Sometimes you break up because the act of asking is so inherently disrespectful you can't reconcile your differing wants and needs. If you're dating someone who has experienced the gut-wrenching pain of being cheated on, you don't ask 2 months into a new relationship if you can fuck other people. This should not come as a surprise to you, to G3, to anyone. It's common sense.

BG3 giving you the opportunity for a foursome with Astarion not only to give the player their hot'n'spicy sex scene (then playfully bops you on the nose by making it a fade-to-black, you naughty little perverts, you), but also to continue its theme of treating the player like a mature adult, who is dealing with other mature adults, and who can and should live with the consequences of their own actions. Subsequent patches have watered this down, I admit, but I do believe that that was the ethos guiding their work from the beginning. BG3 wants you to interact with the characters like people. If you roll over and tell them what they want to hear, you will Ascend Astarion, and he'll enslave you in turn. If you agree with Gale on everything, he will kill himself and you - or, he'll become a god, becoming the exact sort of god he used to rail against. Agree with Karlach, and she will rather die than go back to the Hells. You get my point.

"But Larian could have let me check in on Astarion midway through. Maybe it was a mistake to ask, but they should have let me check on him and stop it all if he wanted. I was trying to trust him to make his own decisions." - Strawman G3

Ok. We add a dialogue option. "Astarion, love, are you alright? We can stop at any time if you want."

Astarion disapproves (-5)

He's not backing out. Thank you for asking, darling, but fuck off. (I don't think he'd actually say fuck off but the implicit message would be there. I can't see Astarion stopping midway through, nor appreciating you doubting him. Nothing changes.)

"But I still feel bad." - Strawman G3

And I completely understand that. It's a video game. Don't worry! Of course you should get your sex scene - it's a reward! You got their approval high enough! You have enough charisma points! In DA:O, you can also have an orgy, unlocked by giving your companions enough gifts! It's a game! You have enough points, you get the thing!!! You killed Cazador - you win! Have your cake and eat it too! Congrats, you unlocked your hot slutty vampire elf who's basically a trained courtesan, who needs you to be his moral compass, who will never leave you so long as you don't actively rape him - enjoy all the fun orgies in your future!

Your actual choice - the choice the game gives you - is to realize that taking what's essentially a human trafficking victim to a brothel is a dumb idea, but they didn't want to punish you for it.

"Well, Astarion should have said something then. He said no before, he can say no again." - Strawman G3

If you go through life pushing peoples boundaries and expect them to verbally tell you what you're doing wrong, you're gonna be friendless and have a bad time. This ties back to both Astarion having difficulty knowing and defending his own values, BG3 trying to let you make your own decisions without setting out a clear "good or bad" path on occasion, and the hope that you'd use your own morals to make decisions. G3 would never behave in this way irl, and that's where the shock comes from, the guilt from committing an action they thought was without consequence in a risk-free fantasy scenario, and then feeling unpleasantly surprised when called out.

But it's a video game, and you didn't get the little zap, the little sting of an Astarion disapproves in the corner that told you you made the wrong choice. In fact, because he doesn't disapprove, it's not actually the wrong choice!

It really was mean how the Narrator made G3 feel bad, wasn't it. They didn't mean to hurt him. Astarion doesn't mention it, so it's probably fine.

... have you talked to Halsin yet? Surely he had a good time. Right?

CONCLUSION

People think they're good and moral and will typically behave "heroically" in video games. Games support this and reward players for doing so. The "good path" is expected to be clear. However, video games are not real life no matter how much they play at immersion, and multiple games have trained players in a linear "do x, receive y" type fashion. Sex is a reward in games, and is treated that way in real life as well, so players expect the Sharess' orgy scene to be a reward, and are then shocked when Astarion/Gale/Halsin etc reveal during or afterwards that they had a bad time. This is because Larian wants you to treat BG3 like a role playing game and interact with it seriously, and isn't afraid to boop you for your actions in ways that mimic real life relationships. This ethical dissonance makes people uncomfortable especially when they play games to role-play as someone better than themselves, and are surprised when they aren't herded down predetermined "good" paths via instantaneous approval/disapproval mechanics or unlockable "ideal" dialogue.

It is absolutely possible that someday Astarion might be into meaningless group sex with prostitutes for fun and pleasure. However, that is the sort of thing you'd probably either wait for him to bring up by himself organically, or discuss in a long-term trusting relationship after he's had potentially years to process the idea of not immediately hopping into bed with someone, as well as disentangling his instinctive "beaten-in" sexually available behavior from his actual desires. People much more emotionally mature and undamaged than Astarion have destroyed their own relationships by inadvertently pushing a partner (or themselves) into various forms of group sex or other sexual acts. It's not something you do on a random Tuesday on a whim.

Or maybe it is, and I'm just chronically boring and surrounded by boring people lmao

TO THE POSTER THAT INSPIRED THIS: I'm so so sorry if you ever see this, not trying to call you out at all hence no linking, I just wanted to pick apart why I think you felt that way. The thoughts just finally bubbled over after a year+ lol

[mrhrns]

Astarion issue

Consider this post as another meaningless shitpost from me. After it I'm going back to my endless work. I was silent about this for gods know how much time, and now I can't hold it inside. Not anymore. Important note: I do realise that I am nobody and my word has no power and blahblahblah, yet I think it is significant, at least for my own self, and who knows, maybe I'll find people with same thoughts. There is... a reason I would like to stay out from BG3 community and fandom. I do wish to contribute my own art someday, however, because my love for this game, its characters and Larian st is huge, but getting inside of fandom, searching for things here and there? ...I don't think I want it. And yeah, that bloodsucker bastard is a main reason for it. Not him directly, but how people perceive him. What they think about him. What they feel. What they show, draw, tell and discuss with everyone else about him. And mostly all of it is... Well... I have complicated feelings about it. None of them are pleasant. Disturbance, disgust, disappointment, and many more similar to it. Why? Here where I realise that mostly the problem is myself. "It's just a fictional character, just some pixels on your screen with voice, why care?" I do. If only anybody knew how much he means to me. I don't have light and easy life, I am in a constant state of survival, I have a list of many different traumas, and holding him in my little silly head helps getting through that shit. Pure shit. Believe me. Because, hell, surviving all he had in his undead life and still managing to be that charismatic (even if it's just a mask), that willing to move forward (even with mood "well, we are doomed")? An icon. Imperfect and by doing so relatable in almost everything for me. And that is why my brain can't help it but feel about him everything like he is alive. Existent. Just somewhere else, far away with no chance of meeting him. And that is why whenever I see porn arts with him, thirsty commentaries, erotic merch like statues, discussions whether he will drink the menstrual blood or not (and even getting his main scenarist involved in that crap) and god damn, that full-sized sex-doll? A bitter irony that his whole point as of fictional character was also showing him as a person with sex-trauma, who was always perceived as a pretty toy-thing for a night against his will with no care for his actual personality in his world, and it is exactly what people do in real life. Here I am glad he isn't real. All of it isn't surprising, though, considering that steam achievements have shown that only a half of players got through the first act.They don't know and they don't want to know. Am I going to tell people what to do and how they should enjoy these fictional things? Of course not. But I would be damn glad if people were digging just a bit more under the surface, but it's a whole other problem that goes with everything else in our world. I just really needed to pull this all out from my brains and put it somewhere, sitting in my dark corner and grumbling at people, just like always. And in the end - yes, I do understand that not all of his fans are like that. Doesn't really help with going frustration.

[vole-mon-amour]

and they shouldn't have 😠.

I never hoped for this. this is a mess.

x

if you recruit both, give me back the datamined dialogue of Halsin asking the player to choose between him and Minthara. the way she kidnaps and tortures him in every timeline, and the way she kills him in one of the outcomes. is he supposed to just forgive her that? she slaughters his Grove and he's supposed to just forgive that?

man, I wish Larian would have stayed true to what they originally planned. again, it's great that they support the game, lots of things were improved (that should've been done in the first place before the release but alas), but we're getting an entirely new game from what it's been when 'fully' released. at least stay true to your ideas, since it directly affects the plot and its conflict.

give me the ability to play as Halsin before the ship crashes, then. make him the original companion and let me be captured as him and tortured before our party arrives and saves Halsin (us) (or, you know, betrays us). let people learn about his very similar to Astarion trauma that is being treated like a joke and hidden behind a very optional dialogue that is very easy to miss, even if you try hard to see as much of the game as possible on your first run.

we know Minthara is in a cult and is being manipulated (which is its own topic because of the damage that she still does) and she verbalizes it. we learn about it from her and it's not a joke. we know about everyone else's trauma. why the hell is Halsin's being portrayed like this?

(and yes, I know that his comments about his slavery and abuse are victim blaming and that's he's repressing those memories, trying to convince himself it was all fun and mutual. but it wasn't!

Astarion went through a similar experience, but he knows it wasn't his fault. he knows the horrible things that he's done and that he was (still is sometimes) an asshole, but he's done those things to survive.

Karlach went through slavery, but she knows it wasn't her fault.

Wyll became a demon due to Mizora's trickery, yet it is very clearly treated like it's not Wyll's fault, it's Mizora's, his abuser.

Gale is not 100% innocent, but Mystra is clearly his abuser, too, due to the chronic pain that the orb is causing him and how it's a danger to him and everyone around him. Mystra tells him to blow himself up and treats him like he's her puppet. live or die, he's nothing to her.

like, what! the! hell! why is Halsin the only one who gets this kind of treatment of his trauma? why doesn't he get a chance to heal, the same way Astarion does? where did all the plot for Halsin's arc go, too?

Halsin deserves fucking better.)

upd: thought I made myself clear, but apparently not: this post is about Halsin. his personality, and trauma, and how they are portrayed compared to other characters. if you want to talk about Minthara, make your own post. also might block me/the anti tag while you're at it.

[csphire]

The mystery that's a part of Dammon's appeal and a solution to preserve it.

From this clip posted by Frazer Blaxland, provided to me by northlandcleric I'm starting to understand where his voice actor is coming from and can even respect it.

But it's also a really brilliant idea for his romance conflict and/or character arc. The thing is, Larian could keep some to most of Dammon's history and motivations a complete mystery. By simply having him struggle, dodge, or even outright refuse to open up about his past and present.

They could drop little ominous clues. Scraps of paper are found during his missions or around his tent in camp with drawn symbols not even Gale can recognize. For his character arc missions, he needs our help to collect a few mysterious items from various sometimes dangerous and highly guarded locations. But the problem is he won't tell you what they are, he refuses to show you them or admit why he needs them. They all just go into this peculiar box of his which he works on out of view of the camera. Much like when he was preparing a fix for Karlach's heart. It could cause the device inside to glow and make some chilling sounds that make us question our decision to keep helping him.

If that wasn't bad enough, there are odd things he mumbles to himself in passing you can't quite make out. We could have a cutscene where we catch him continuing to work on this mysterious device that he quickly hides away.

He could occasionally disappear from the game. As in, he's not available as a companion for a day here and there. He warns you this could happen beforehand and not to worry. Or there is simply a note he's left behind.

I should be back in a day, possibly two. - Dammon

When he comes back, and we ask where he went, he tells us he can't say. Sometimes, he comes back shaken or injured and still won't tell us what has happened or what's wrong.

His story is filled with all kinds of little things that would pique our curiosity and cause us to wonder and yearn for answers.

Perhaps the items he collects look to be transfered into a special locked chest at camp near his tent that he says is private and to not touch. And if the player doesn't listen, picks one surprisingly low roll lock, and opens it regardless, it provides zero answers. It contains just a few mundane, possibly sentimental items. What do these items mean? It doesn't matter, at least not yet, because it was a duplicate box. A temptation. A test to determine if Dammon could trust you, and you just failed it. Upon opening his chest, and violating one of his boundaries, he leaves the party and disappears forever. Or better yet, the game suddenly ends, and the credits roll.

What the hells happened?

We'll never know but we just messed up big time.

Why do I think this idea is perfect for him?

One Frazer wants him to be a man of mystery. Okay, that's valid. Here is your mystery, another paycheck, and more acclaim Frazer.

Two, because it's already set into Dammon's character somewhat. Upon minutes of knowing us, when he speaks of his time in the hells he outright admits, "I hope to forget most of it."

Again, that could be the issue the player character has with him. He simply doesn't want to talk about his past, his trauma, and possible sins. He wants to focus on the present and future with you and/or Karlach. Dammon can be a rather private and guarded character. Why is he like that? It's another mystery.

Being with him as a friend or lover is a complete leap of faith.

Perhaps he actually did, or was made to do, something horrifying and possibly unforgivable. If he confesses, maybe he fears it would destroy our warm view of him and the better person he wishes to be now. Maybe something unspeakable has happened to him, and he doesn't want to be an object of pity. He could be a god, a devil, a Great Old One, or something else in disguise. He could be from the future or an alternate dimension. Or maybe he's entered into an infernal pact of some kind that's bound his tongue on the whole matter. The list of what his secrets are can go on and on.

Then as his love interest or just friend, do we accept that he has a few secrets and respect his boundaries? Do we keep our hands off his metaphorical Pandora's box? Or do we break things off with him for refusing to trust and open up to us? Better yet, he could choose to break it off with us eventually or even leave the party for good if we keep pressing and again, open that chest of his.

This would allow us fanfic writers to go wild with theories. The fandom as a whole will debate over which ones seem more plausible. None of which the developers at Larian will ever confirm.

Parts of his past will never be explained to us the player.

Finally, after he's collected the last thing he needs, and fiddles with it after he places it in the box, it just winks out of existence. Maybe dramatically, it hums, levitates, and glows first then poof! A real "Stand back!" like it's going to blow up moment.

After it's gone, Dammon drops to his knees, shivers, and lets out this huge sigh of relief, maybe even laughs next. Make it a touch maniacal? Sure, that would make us sweat over if we did the right thing in helping him. Make us squirm Larian, please.

The important thing is, that whatever problem Dammon had is over... or is it?

The player character can ask him if he can now explain himself. If a friend, he'll just shake his head and thank us. If we have low approval with him, he'll just shake his head and apologize that he still can't speak of it and ask us to, yet again, drop the matter.

But if he's our love, he'll ask if we are sure we want to know and if we can keep a secret. If we vow to, he will lean in and whisper something into our character's ear. We the audience won't know what he's told our character. But at least now there are no more secrets between him and the one(s) he loves.

We just get to watch on as our character's eyes go wider and bug a little in shock as he whispers away. When he pulls back, we can choose to rush and hug him. So tight with an expression of utter belated fear of all that could have gone wrong on our character's face. Or we could choose to break up with him because whatever our character heard has damaged the relationship beyond repair.

Now that the player character knows everything they can consummate the relationship. Why now? Because full disclosure is sexy, and so is a good slow burn.

Oh, and remember those sentimental items? After telling us about his completed mission to our character, he finally shows us what's in that locked chest that had been a test of trust. The one we decide to respect his wishes and leave alone. He finally opens up about his past a tiny bit and talks about why each item he kept in there was so important to him. But of course, most of his trinkets will not be related to his time in the hells or his mysterious now completed task.

Later on, we can ask, "What in the hells were you thinking, taking all that on?!"

Dammon's response? He gives a sheepish shrug and says, "I think you know why. Everything is in order now. That's all that matters, my love. Thank you for trusting, helping, and believing in me."

To just a friend player character, who tries yet again for an explanation, Dammon will only offer, "Just know everything is in order now. That's all that matters, and you have my deepest thanks."

Again, to be clear, we the players are still kept in the dark. It will be only our romanced player character that will know what happened, and there could be an option to whisper Dammon's secret to others. That temptation could always be there among the dialogue options when speaking to the other companions. But kissing and telling will come with consequences. Anywhere from earning a large chunk of disapproval with Dammon to him outright breaking up with the player's character and leaving the party. Maybe he tells all to Karlach too or maybe not, it could all depend on your and Dammon’s relationship with her.

But no matter what, Dammon keeps a majority of his mystery.

Frazer is hopefully happy. We'll be happy.

Everyone. Can. Be. Happy!

If you agree, please consider sharing this to help bring it to Larian's attention. Feel free to discuss your thoughts in the comments below too.

Let's get Dammon into a starring role as an origin character and romanceable in a DLC to help feature the Artificer class!

[glitterdustcyclops]

okay it's nearly one in the morning and i can't sleep because i'm thinking too much about astarion so permit me to ramble for a moment (you actually have no choice)

but just

ugh

the more and more i play the game and experience all the different facets of the conversations you can have with him (and also ruthlessly spoil myself on his arc both ascended and not because i'm impatient lmao) the more i am just, completely in awe of the depth and care that went into writing him??

like, okay, cards on the table, i have a pretty major vampire kink, biting kink, blood kink, etc. and from the first moment i heard there was a romanceable character in a fantasy rpg that was a flirtatious queer vampire pretty boy with a Traumatic Backstory and a twisted master/slave relationship with an Evil Dude i was immediately like 👀👀👀

could not draft the marriage proposal fast enough, you know?

and larian could've just stuck with that! they could've had him be an incorrigible flirt, and have his whole arc focused on getting revenge against the horrid man what wronged him, and by helping him on his quest you earn his love and you two ride off into the sunset, happy forever

but no. instead we got something so much more, and it's entirely fascinating to me. all of his layers and contradictions!! the different masks he wears on top of each other, and all his pain and trauma barely simmering under the surface of his pretty polished façade.

and not only do we go ahead and take this man whomst on the surface appears to be a walking vampire erotica trope in a gorgeous package, but we pull off the reveal (and depending on how you play it this can happen almost immediately after you express interest in him) that this whole thing, is a very blatant, deliberate act. one cultivated by a sexual abuse survivor, as a way to protect himself from the things that scare him, that make him vulnerable.

he straight up tells you to your face that this is a lie!! this all pretend!!! you're supposed to fall for it, he wants you to. what he does not want, what he could never predict, not in centuries, is that you would see past his mask(s), and then go ahead and love him anyway. him. the real him, the one he barely knows himself, the flashes he reveals to you accidentally in small moments, as much as he doesn't want to: all those messy cruel capricious terribly horribly wonderfully real parts of himself, and how he wants to be real with you in turn, even though it scares the absolute bejeezus out of him

and THEN!!!! the further you go in his romance, the more you realize that this walking series of pickup lines, this supposed master seducer, is actually incredibly wary of sex because of all the trauma and pain it's caused him. sex is not something he associates with true joy or pleasure or even intimacy, not anymore; the ability to feel good about his body was taken from him. the game makes it explicit that, as a man who was robbed of his agency and his ability to meaningfully consent to sex, not only is it the objectively wrong decision but it is downright evil to force him into doing anything sexual with you, even though you're his True Love or whatever, and as he learns and grows and feels more secure in himself he will straight up dump your ass if you violate his boundaries around sex!!!

and instead of flirt-flirt-flirt-true-love-forever you get all these really sweet, tender moments of nonsexual intimacy, hand holding and hugs and just, honest sweet conversations? you can even tell him "hey i don't think it's good for us to be serious right now, but i still want to be your friend." and even if you do keep romancing him, you can reassure him that you don't hold his lack of interest in sex against him, you still want to be with him just as he is!! he is worth it to you, with his ten-piece designer set of luxury baggage. and he practically melts about it!!

and this is not even getting into everything post cazador quest, i haven't even gotten to those scenes yet except for the "evil" version (trying not to ruin it for myself haha) but the way his arc ends in the "good" version where you talk him out of doing the ritual, out of perpetuating the cycle of abuse that was forced on him, and instead show him a better way forward? and he experiences true actual freedom for the first time in centuries, and he hesitantly decides that he wants to keep going forward with you??

UGH!! i just, i care about astarion so much!!!! i am absolutely head-over-heels-stupid in love with him and the way he's written and i will never fucking get over it, oh my god, help me, i'm DYING

[autistichalsin]

So thinking back to the new post-Drow dialogue from Halsin:

I have a few thoughts. Overall, I am beyond overjoyed to see this implemented because it was sorely needed, but there are a few things that should be adjusted before anything is voiced.

The wording for the "sounds traumatic, you may need to reflect on that" absolutely should be changed. "Sounds traumatic- do you want to talk about it?" "Sounds traumatic- you're safe here with me" etc would be infinitely better.

Halsin shouldn't apologize for how he talks about being enslaved. I get that that actually IS sadly in character for him, though. So maybe the right answer is to have the player be able to gently tell him it's not about apologies, it's not about their feelings, it's about Halsin.

The whole "spoke harshly about Drow" thing... I don't know. It's weird to me in ways I can't articulate- it's like this is a conversation between the fanbase and Larian, not Tav and Halsin, and accordingly it just doesn't feel right, Halsin's responses.

Most importantly, I am more than a bit concerned about the line where an evil Lolth player can suggest selling Halsin back into slavery. Of course, as an evil dialogue option, it is absolutely great, but I worry that Halsin's reaction to it will be too understated. Is he going to show his hurt, his betrayal, maybe fear, if the player (who he might have romanced, and at any rate trusted enough to sleep with and have this conversation) says this? This should result in him automatically breaking up with a romanced player, and definitely needs to result in a massive loss of approval- at the very least, it needs to drop him to 0 approval. If Karlach loses 100 approval if the player sleeps with her and then says it was a mistake, this should cost at least 40 points if not more. Also, if this plays after an orgy, and the other companion (Astarion, Shadowheart, or Gale) is nearby, there needs to be consequences from them too, even if it's only a loss of approval (Though I imagine Astarion might have something to say as well.) Basically, if this is put in the game, it needs to be treated seriously- not like how the devs keep putting in options for us to casually bully Halsin while he shrugs his shoulders. This needs to be treated as irredeemably evil, the same as if the player manipulates Astarion into having sex with them after he confesses his traumas to them.

After the Drow-exclusive dialogue options, it jumps to node 21, where Halsin explains why he forgot how bad it was over the years, then thanks the player for their counsel/support. Needless to say, this should NOT happen for the evil dialogue option!

Other than those concerns, I am beyond excited for this.

[silver-horse]

BG3 writing is lacking when it comes to the main character's autonomy and boundaries. Even though these are central themes in the main story and every companion's story. (People praise Larian for how well the game handled consent but there are oversights. so please read this if you have the time)

It's especially jarring if you are romancing Astarion. It's almost a teaching tale to be sensitive towards your partner's boundaries. But they didn't make sure that this is mutual. And I don't think spawn Astarion was meant to be a hypocrite in this regard, I will explain why in the last paragraph. It's a mistake that they could still fix... but I doubt they will)

Astarion often tries to encourage the main character to do weird submissive things and he makes gross sexual degrading comments. If Tav said these sort of things to him, he would be so insulted he would scream "I will kill you on instinct!" (Like he did during early access if we joked "I didn't think you would enjoy a master in the bedroom")

A line that especially disgusts me is what Astarion sometimes says to romanced Tav when he uses "help" action on Tav. "You look good helpless" with delight in his voice! If you want proof, here is a video (he says it at 1:32 ) He would be disgusted if we said this to him in a moment when he is incapacitated. It wouldn't matter what the intention is, if it's flirtatious or playful. But he can say it to his love interest? YOU LOOK GOOD HELPLESS?? 🤮🤮 ew

Maybe you think it's a mild comment BUT whenever something just as mild is said to Astarion in a flirty way, the game is hitting you on the head how it's not okay to say that to him. If it's said to him, he gets angry. If he says it it to his love interest, love interest cannot respond. Double standard. Perhaps the greatest example is the Araj Oblodra scene and the goblin feet licking scene...

Astarion says "go on give it a lick" referring to goblin feet. He ends up also approving when I do the opposite and make the goblin lick my feet. Doesn't erase what he suggests in the first place. (Yes it's funny if he has a foot fetish, I agree. But if he said "tell the goblin to lick your feet" that would still work and he wouldn't be pushing Tav to taste something repulsive and degrade themselves just because a stranger NPC told Tav "kneel and lick my feet")

In comparison when a stranger NPC tells Astarion "drink my blood" we are doing a very bad thing if we tell him to go along with that. Even telling him to choose on his own is a bad option. Tav is a good partner only if Tav stands up to the NPC. But Astarion in the same situation behaved in the opposite manner (even if he is already sleeping with Tav when they meet the goblins)

There is even a reward we can snatch if we choose to lick. It's just like when he can degrade himself for the potion Araj offers. If that happens, he breaks up with his partner. But he encourages his partner to lick dirty feet for scraps. Maybe you think well it's before his character development. It doesn't matter. If the game doesn't address it and 1 of these situations is never treated as something bad, only a joke, it's a double standard. They just let him say that and never apologise. (And the main character is motivated to get companion approval lol so even the game mechanics support that comments from companions, especially romanced one, is pushing the mc to do it.)

If you play AS Astarion, Shadowheart flirts with You/Astarion by saying "A dose of honesty. careful people don't take advantage of that. unless you want to be taken advantage of…" After this, the game gives you/Astarion the option to "imagine squeezing a neck pushing out every drop of blood" that's how angry Astarion gets from this flirty comment that a female character said to him, even though HE flirts in the SAME manner regularly.

Important context 1. She doesn't know about his trauma. 2. he said "I want to get to know you better" so she is responding AFTER he approached her. 3. he said "you are not wrong" when she implied that he is looking for direction. he basically gave her the green light twice 4. after the angry "imagine…", she notices something is off and offers to leave him alone. She is not the dickhead for saying that line.

Astarion says "don't you dare say no" when Abdirak wants to whip and beat the main character. sorry Astarion, I dare say no (unlike someone... and the fact that he can't say no and yet he talks this way to his partner makes it worse)

he calls the romanced main character "my little treat" during the celebration party and there is at least one occasion when spawn astarion says "pet". Also hilariously this "pet" comment is dropped when HE is establishing HIS boundaries in the brothel. But our character is unable to establish that this is a disgusting way to refer to them.

IF you ascend him you CAN challenge him when he calls you "pet"! Ascendant was written as a hypocrite, he turns into an abuser, the writing acknowledges this and allows players to say "Don't call me pet" and "It doesn't feel like a joke. It sounds like you mean it". You can call Ascendant out on his bullshit in SOoo many dialogues. The game makes it a point that you can ask him to stop and Ascendant ignores what you asked. But with spawn you can't even ask? lmao because they didn't notice it's insulting? The same word "pet" is used during a convo around consent with spawn astarion and we can't say we don't like that. If someone in real life called me "my little treat" or "pet", I would probably punch them

If the story explores consent then they should make the boundaries mutual. It would require one response option in the goblin camp or during the act 1 party. "Don't say that to me" and then he could just NOT say this "uwu my little treat/pet" shit later on. because his partner established a boundary. Even better, he could not say these things in the first place because he would be angry if it was said to him.

In short this should have been better handled by the writing because I don't think this hypocrisy was intentional. Ascendant is a hypocrite and the writing addresses that! It's a point of the story that he can BECOME that. But that guy is not the same guy who opens up about his past etc. Also when Haarlep is using Tav's body, Astarion is the only one who shows understanding. It's similar to his experiences so the writers were conscious of that and he reacts accordingly with empathy. I think his hypocritical comments are a result of the writers thinking "it would be funny or sexy if he said X" and they didn't realise that's not necessarily true. It was never meant to be deep but that doesn't change how it comes off. It's presented as cutesy when said BY Astarion. And the exact same type of lines are presented as outrageously insensitive when said TO Astarion.

[fourraccoonsinacoat]

The beautiful subtleties of the Astarion scar scene, and why this is that headcannon scene where Tavurge draws Astarion.

***Trigger Warning for discussions of body autonomy and sexual trauma.

And we're back for yet another midnight dissertation where I over analyze the F out of a video game character romance, because I can't stop thinking about how amazing the storytelling is. I need help.

So we all love that Astarion romance headcannon where Tavurge draws/paints/does-something-to-show-Astarion-his-face. It's a beautiful headcannon and I adore it. But, allow me to convince you that Larian did, in fact, give us this scene. And it's the scene where Tavurge draws Astarion's scars.

Jump in the car, here we go:

The song playing in the background of this scene is "I Want to Live." I think that's a very deliberate choice, as that song is very tied to Astarion. So much so, that you can stand on a rock behind his tent and suddenly the full song starts to play, lyrics included. Music reminding us of the one thing Astarion wants more than anything else?

Astarion wants the freedom to live a life he chooses, he wants his choices to matter. He's been living 200+ years, but can't remember ever feeling alive until now. He is so deathly afraid of what he has being ripped away now that he's had a taste.

Because every other time he ever felt hope, Cazador tore it away and punished him. Cazador has caught him before when he ran, and locked him in a tomb to starve in darkness for a year. There's a reason the game makes it clear that this is his worst memory. It has to constantly be haunting him, fearful that at any moment Cazador is going to rip this away, too.

So, Astarion sleeps with Tavurge and is suddenly told that the design Cazador drew on his back is written in Infernal. Infernal being the language devils use to write Infernal Contracts. Astarion has to be out of his mind with fear that whatever is on his back binds him to Cazador in some way. Maybe in a way he doesn't know about.

I need to say something about body autonomy trauma, so trigger warning for those who struggle with these subjects. Sexual and body autonomy trauma both play into why this scene is powerful. I struggle with both and there's a reason his story hits particularly hard with me.

****Trigger For Description Of Emotional Response to Trauma: Having control of your body taken away leaves you with a type of deep, primal fear that is very difficult to explain. It's ridiculous and cliche, but the honest-to-best way to describe it is it, feels like a hole deep in your chest where something used to be. And it was literally wrenched out of inside your body, a place where nobody should be able to go because if your body isn't safe then where the fuck is? So keep that in mind.****

Not only has Astarion not had control of his body, he can't even see it in a reflection. Let that sink in.

To add it all up: he has something written in Infernal on his back that he can't see, but that could mean the one thing he's dreading = being bound to Cazador and having all of this ripped away. Again. And then he'll be punished, doing nothing but thinking about what he only just got a taste of.

This is why the cycle of abuse just crushes hope out of you. Because things hurt so much worse when you're hoping for them to work. At some point you're just hurting yourself by hoping.

He's terrified and he can't even look at his own body to see what someone forcibly mutilated into his skin.

So, Tavurge approaches Astarion from behind, just like in the mirror scene. Except this time, Astarion can't see them approaching.

Tavurge surprises him, in what's already a vulnerable moment, and surprises him from behind. A position of weakness. We'll hit on this more in a moment.

Astarion snaps at Tavurge due to being caught in a vulnerable moment. But, he quickly slides back into his charm and apologizes. Mask back up.

He explains what he was doing and the dialog choices here even throwback to the mirror scene. You can tell him you'll be his mirror in this scene.

He's hesitant about the idea. He's not comfortable with vulnerability, and outright tells Tavurge this isn't their problem. This is an extremely vulnerable thing, especially for someone with body autonomy issues. You're turning your back on someone and asking them to show you what's on your own damn body! What if they lie?

This is a major trust moment for Astarion. If you ask later to talk to others in camp about his scars, he is quick to say no.

He's not ready to trust that much. He just was vulnerable with Tavurge and that took too much out of the vulnerability reserves to push for more. Got to let those reserves build back up by seeing more reasons that show it's okay to be vulnerable.

This man does not want to turn around. He keeps his head down and grimaces, closes his eyes to brace himself. Think about all the triggers he must have about turning his back on people. He wasn't exactly bringing the morally upright back to Cazador. And Cazador, himself, obviously took advantage of his control to force Astarion to turn his back to him. Thus the scars.

Given all of that, he still turns around in an act of consent.

I love that you can just choose to quietly draw. You don't tell him how bad it looks, you don't try to comfort him by saying it's not that bad (which he would likely only hear as patronizing in this moment), and you can choose to not make a joke. I feel that's meaningful.

He turns around and can finally fucking see this thing that's been on his back for over two centuries.

At least he got to see his face, even if he can't remember almost anything about it. At least he can touch his hair, touch his face to get an idea. He can't even do that with the scars.

This means a lot, guys. Tavurge has drawn something that I argue is more meaningful than Astarion's face.

Tavurge has drawn a significant key to his future. The future he wants more than anything.

He needs to figure out what the hell this is before Cazador possibly activates it and Tavurge just made that significantly more possible.

And then, Tavurge has the option to call the two of them "we" for the first time in a way not tied to sex. Telling him "we will figure this out" and not asking for anything in return or giving him a hard time about it - at least not too much. The "shut up and turn around" dialog is one of my favs, and I feel Astarion appreciates the candor.

He's definitely sus when you say "we".

That is the face of sus.

But also...amusedly hopeful?

I like that he calls Tavurge "sweet" here. It makes me think of him calling them "cute" in the spawn ending at the grave with the flower.

I think Astarion really picks up on small things. Things people say and do genuinely, and I think it both amuses and confuses him, and in the beginning (here) still makes him uneasy and suspicious. He even asks it as somewhat of a question. Like, are you really actually this genuine?

I also would like to make an argument to the court that this is a significant moment when Astarion starts to realize he !FEELS! something for Tavurge and it's wigging him out!

They're making him hope again, and that's scary.

So, there. That's my evidence for why this scene is the drawing Astarion scene that we all love in our headcannons.

Tavurge is drawing something of extreme significance here. And I love how incredibly subtle this scene is in not blatantly pointing that out.

It's beautiful writing and that is all, your honor. Midnight dissertation - but also I may be in court - over!

Thank you for reading any of this nonsense.

[bananasfosterparent]

@oonalovesastarionssimpleplans

Moving to a text post because it's more comfortable. But hold on...

I mean no offense, but no one needs permission or guidelines (especially from another fan) for how they're "allowed" to enjoy AA and to get berated for "not understanding the character" when they understand him perfectly fine. Just differently.

Is it truly that hard to fathom that some people enjoy the actual character and the dynamic that happens between him and Tav/Durge and not (just) the sexy stuff?

Is it truly that hard to imagine that there are people who enjoy AA outside of the (very mild) sexual content?

Do you only see the ascended ending as some sexy fantasy with nothing else to offer?

Larian themselves did not call it his "bad" ending. The only person who said that was a certain cowriter. Said cowriter was not saying it in an official capacity and was sharing their opinions.

Want to know something? The spawn ending felt more like failing him to me. And that's simply just how it felt. Can't change that as there's no reason to.

Anyone can claim how Tav is "supposed" to feel during a certain scene or event. Even some one shiny and "official". But that does not make it canon information if it isn't actually stated in the game. It really doesn't mean anything in relation to roleplay, except that it's just one way out of many to interpret that game event.

No writer, cowriter, or fellow fan can actually tell someone how that person's Tav feels because only that person can say. That's what roleplaying is.

Regardless of the co-writer's intentions for a specific message or agenda in the story, unfortunately, due to the nature of the game and individual experience, every person is going to interpret the same information differently. As they are supposed to. That's the point of the game.

Yes, there are people who ascend him just because it's sexy. I have seen people admit things, like how they'd never ascend him or could never do "that" to him for roleplay, but they still ascend him just to see the romance scene. I've seen people admit they'd never ascend him for roleplay reasons or dislike AA overall, but are glad to find clips of the romance scene online so they can still enjoy it. Honestly if that's how they enjoy the character and game, that's their choice.

But the people who usually do that are not the people who call themselves AA fans. Because the people who do that don't typically enjoy that version of him, only parts of it. And that's fine! But you cannot lump us all together.

I don't know a single AA fan who prefers the ending SOLELY for the sexual content or the "sexy Vampire" fantasy. I don't know a single AA fan's Tav who ascended him solely because they wanted to be with the "sexy vampire". There's always a roleplay reason well beyond that. Unfortunately, no matter what any cowriter says, personal interpretation and roleplay comes first, thanks to the nature of this game.

And, while I appreciate the way you and the cowriter and many others interpret his story, I cannot and do not interpret it that way, based on my own trauma experiences, my own biases, my own individual understanding, AND my own desire for the kind of narrative I want to tell. And that isn't just me. That goes for every single person as an individual who plays the game.

Like it or not, this is a roleplaying game. Heavy on the roleplay. With this game specifically, the individual player's interpretation of canon information comes first before any writer's intent. That does not render the cowriter's agenda null and void, as many people (like yourself) see it the same way, but it does mean that there is more than one way to interpret this story, and ignoring or berating others for simply connecting to his story in a different way, saying it's "provocative and untrue", is quite honestly inconsiderate and condescending. And wrong.

Yes, posting anything to the internet is going to warrant a response from people who disagree. Everyone who posts anything online knows that. However, there's zero reason to actively be the one saying the negative things. Especially when it's about something innocent and fun.

[greekmyth-simon]

"FREEDOM"

[WARNING, SPOILERS FOR ASTARION'S BACKSTORY]:

I really wanted to do a piece that represented in some way the weight that Astarion's vampirism, so intertwined with his time as Cazador's puppet, set on his heart.

He is so consumed by both self hatred and self perserving insticts, so deeply carved into his heart, that even himself doesn't know what is the original him and what it's a learned habit forced in by his abuser or a trauma response.

Larian Studios did a wonderful job on representing a tortured man, and made sure to show us how trauma can taint every aspect of someon's life. Their personality, their sexuality, their manerisms, what they enjoy, what they don't, etcerera. I also specially love how they show us the greyness of what a traumatized character can be, he can do good, and he can do bad, but at the end of the day he is just a man, doing his best to survive.

And then, they gave us a chance to be his safe space, to help him unlearn those habits, to re-learn who he is, to heal; to be free.

Anyways, Baldur's Gate 3, truly is (at least for me), the game of the year.

🌟 Instagram | Commission Info | Ko-fi 🌟

[fangswbenefits]

As someone with past SA trauma, the people getting upset at others for writing smut or drawing nsfw or such for Astarion aren't thinking it through, I don't think. I don't know how far you are in his romance and I don't want to spoil anything, so I'll just say that there is only one time you can (if you choose certain dialogue options) be with him where he is not the one to initiate, and if you do that then he will end things with you because he's finding his boundaries, no matter what you choose for dialogue. The game handles his past incredibly well and at the same time allows him to be nuanced.

Another note, he's pan - confirmed by Neil Newbon, his VA - but that doesn't mean he can't be ace too. And at the same time, that also doesn't mean that he can't be ace and still be with Tav. It's a spectrum.

I'm not sure how well I'm expressing myself, I apologize. This character means a lot to me as someone who has past experience with SA, is pan, and is also somewhere on the asexual spectrum (just not sure where). I have a lot of emotions about Astarion. If I've worded something wrong, I'm sorry, it's almost 4 am and I'm very tired, but I couldn't not pipe up with a far too long ask about this.

Thank you for you input, my friend 🩷 wishing you all the best!

I went into BG3 not knowing anything about his backstory. He looked hot to me and I was instantly interested, but after knowing about it, it just really broke my heart. Larian could have gone the classic cliché route with vampires in mainstream media. And while he exudes the expected sexiness and allure, upon realizing where it stems from.... yeah...

[absolutehomosexuals]

"From a sociological point of view, it's fascinating how so many people are upset at the thought of their favourite character (and coincidentally, the one they want to bang) being reclaimed by homosexual fans. "

You're right and you should say it. I truly don't understand their behavior because it's not like Larian will make Astarion break up with their fem!Tavs in the next patch and hook up with some random guy afterwards. Are they truly so threatened by random strangers on the internet having different interpretations of the text and headcanons?

I don't know if you've noticed it, but another headcanon these people also get angry at, is asexual Astarion/him being on the ace spectrum. It's not such a popular interpretation but still, every time someone posts their asexual Astarion headcanon the same people come out of the woodwork to lecture everyone else how he's not asexual in the text, how you are delusional and stupid if you think so and how you are actually doing more damage to the asexual community if you think Astarion is one, nevermind the fact that most people headcanoning him as such are asexual themselves, the same way many of the ones interpreting him as gay are gay themselves!!! They may not like it, but there are elements in his romance that do resonate with a lot of asexual folks out there (like the part where he puts a pause on sex).

I personally interpret him as demi (curious what you think about this one) as he does want sex but on his own terms and most importantly, with a partner he loves and feels safe with. I honestly doubt that after 200 years of being forced to have sex against his will, he will seek out meaningless flings and "fun" such going to brothels.

Of course this doesn't stop his fandom (who ironically pretends to understand the character) to act like he's some horny vampire who will be up for anything otherwise they can't self-insert into their Tavs or project their kinks onto him anymore.

( Can't wait for your Durge essay, btw!! )

We honestly didn't interpret these elements of Astarion's romance route as him possibly being asexual/demisexual, as they are symptoms of sexual trauma first and foremost ; one must be careful not to confuse one's genuine preferences and coping mechanisms.

People self-inserting into their Tavs is honestly so wild 😭 I know most people who play Baldur's Gate 3 aren't familiar with D&D, but the roleplay aspect is one of the best aspects of the game in our ppinion!! They have all these options to create a detailed character, personalize them fully, and they choose to use their Tavs as a mean to play out their sexual fantasies with characters of their choosing.

Which, of course, isn't inherently bad and (while it's sort of a shallow way to experience bg3) it's a legitimate preference. But still, it gives us the ick.

And absolutely, omg, misinterpreting a character for the sole purpose of projecting your kinks onto them is one of the most disturbing forms of media illiteracy.

(Also thank you 💕 I, mod orinthara, have started outlining and writing the essay this morning! I've covered a few points already and the full thing should be out fairly soon!)