#i honestly didn't mean for this post to be about arya's endgame

[atopvisenyashill]

hey! i’ve been sort of lurking on your blog for a while, lol, but seeing you answer one of your recent asks abt some of your main theories got me curious enough to finally start a convo. so for the record, i was kind of ambivalent about sansa before reading some of your metas, and i’m still not really a jonsa believer, but a lot of things you’ve catalogued on ur blog did a lot to solidify sansa being lady of winterfell as a new member of my ASOIAF Endgame PredictionsTM, and seeing u answer that recent ask w all your separate bits of evidence collected together really sold it for me! quick question, though: i tend to skim-read long posts, so maybe i missed something, but did you say anything about why sansa would specifically end up as QiTN, rather than just lady of winterfell (still under whoever the next major ruler of westeros is)? i mean, especially if we do go ahead and assume that bran will end up as king in harrenhal, i don’t quite get why sansa would want to establish the north as a separate kingdom by seceding from her own brother? i suppose there’s the angle of wanting to honor what robb fought for, which certainly isn’t a bad motivator… but i think the remaining starklings, of all people, would be more likely to recognize (and focus on the fact) that robb’s main motivation in participating in the Wot5K was mostly just to avenge ned and secure the safety of the rest of his family. and even if the idea of finishing what robb started is a motivating factor, considering that asoiaf’s endgame is almost certainly going to be post-apocalyptic in some senses, i feel like whoever’s making these big decisions (even if that group does include some of the starklings, though it definitely will) would be more likely to prioritize trying to kind of return the world of westeros to something most resembling the previous status quo, which committing to splitting the kingdoms would maybe not really help with?

interested to hear your thoughts on all of this, thanks for reading :D <3

First - thank you for the compliment!!! I love to spread the gospel of Sansa As Ruling Lady In Winterfell lol, and it's nice to know I've convinced some people about some aspects of it! I have got to get better about adding a tldr at the ending though bc I too will sometimes just skim a post and queue it alsdjfla. (also validating each other on "the ending is going to be post apocalyptic" - YES that's what I've BEEN saying omg I do sometimes feel like some of the endgame predictions leave out that imo the last half of ados is going to feel very much like a post-apocalyptic type rebuilding!). Also sorry if this is kind of meandering, I wanted to organize it a bit more but that didn't work out lol.

But honestly okay - I go back and forth a LOT on whether Sansa is ruling lady of Winterfell or straight up Queen on the North. I’m still very undecided on it! I think it makes sense, narratively and just like logically that if Rickon is found he’s Bran’s heir in the South (both as a parallel to the Aegon/Viserys ending of the Dance and as a kind of neat bow tie on their story as brothers - they start the series being left behind in Winterfell and end the series choosing to stay behind but together in Harrenhal), then the girls are in the North as the Starks in Winterfell. Again, I think this is a parallel to Sansa/Serena & a play on the she-wolves of winterfell, but also, being the two oldest Starks, makes sense that Sansa is ruling lady and Arya is a sort of Hand (and like Rickon, potentially the one their line descends from but again - call me Sokka because I love to waffle!) But Queen in the North specifically? I think that's less clear than Sansa being ruling lady of Winterfell (which imo isn't just clear, it's the obvious answer for her story arc) though I still think there's a high probability of it.

First, let me get into the more conjecture side of it. Basically, I think part of the reason the kingdoms are going to split is because there will be some population and geographic changes after the Long Night/second war for the throne - I think I've mentioned it before I believe the Neck is going to "break" ie become flooded the same way the arm of dorne was "broken" and flooded and became the stepstones. This would make the North a lot harder to get to, geographically, which could further isolate them and want them to have their own monarch who is In The North and can make more snap decisions as they rebuild than Bran could all the way passed the Neck in Harrenhal.

I also think the Iron Islands are going to get fucked and Asha will lead a lot of her people to the mainland to settle, probably in the North due to them needing more population because they also got fucked - and two groups of people who are notoriously kind of isolationist coming together might prefer to stay partially disconnected from the main kingdoms. Which isn't to say they won't have contact with each other - I guess I was picturing like....idk a sort of EU thing lmao, or maybe a Narnia thing of like, open borders between the 2-3 kingdoms who are all allies and work together due to being on the same continent.

Of course, the breaking of the Neck (which is something I'm a lot more confident on - I think it's a guarantee tbh) could also drive the North back into the arms of the other kingdoms, as they need more help recovering from the Long Night and can perhaps offer help to the South as the South recovers from their wars. But anyways that's my geographic/logistical reason why I think the North might stay separated from the rest of the Kingdoms, even with a Stark King on the throne.

Now, in the previous ask, I mentioned her parallels to other Queens and some of the Queen imagery surrounding her - there's the abundant Naerys/Sansa parallels, and the Cersei/Sansa antiparallels. There's a bit of talk about how ~Sansa is good at queenly things~ and ~Joffrey was foolish to set her aside that feels (to me) like setup for her being a ruling Queen - no one can set her aside or disrespect her then, like Naerys and Cersei go through. Of course just paralleling a few Queens doesn't inherently mean she'll be Queen but I do think the emphasis on comparing her to queens is pointed - then again, imo there's also a lot of parallels between her and Princess Rhaena Targaryen of Dragon Twins fame, and Rhaena does not wind up a queen!

(there is also some parallels to historical queens there, most notably to Elizabeth of York, Queen of England and wife to Henry VII. Notably their marriage ended the War of the Roses, but I don't claim to be an expert there but I have reblogged some meta on that here and I'm sure there's others floating around).

There's also these two little bits here-

Ahead he glimpsed a pale white trunk that could only be a weirwood, crowned with a head of dark red leaves.

In their midst was a pale stranger; a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid. Dark red leaves sprouted from its reaching branches.

The first is from a Jon chapter and I think it could point to Bran or Sansa - dark red hair, pale skin, and a crown. The second one is what makes me think it points to either just sansa or both of them - that comes in a Brienne chapter. Again you have the pale skin (white as a cloistered maid) and dark red leaves acting as hair almost. To be honest, there's a lot with the Tully-Starklings having the coloring of a weirwood that's sort of fascinating in what it implies - perhaps that their roots are leading them back North, perhaps something more sinister re: Bran being eaten by a tree. I digress lol.

There's a few comments from Ned as well that feel like they might be foreshadowing-

“Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

"Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms. Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?" “You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.” Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa."

There's a lot made of that last one, about how Ned potentially lays out his kids endgames right there to Arya -

Lord of a Great Holdfast and sit on a King's Council - Jon Snow

Raise Castles Like Brandon the Builder - Bran

Sail a Ship Across the Sunset Sea - Arya

Enter the Faith and Become High Septon - Rickon

Marry a King, Rule His Castle, Sons will be {etc} - no, that's Sansa

Those comments stick out to me because imo Sansa & Arya's endgames will be a sort of mirror to Ned & Lyanna so it seems natural to me that some of Sansa's endgame would be foreshadowed in the chapters of her father the same as Arya's endgame is sort of anti-foreshadowed (idk how you would phrase that one lol) in Lyanna.

tldr i am much more confident in the idea that Sansa will rule Winterfell than I am in what title she will have while ruling. I do think there is some Sansa-as-Queen foreshadowing, in her comparisons to other Queens like Naerys, Cersei, and Elizabeth of York, and the way characters like Ned & Tyrion talk about how ~queenly~ she acts and how naturally leading under stress comes to her.

[esther-dot]

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the North. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you." (Arya X ASOS)

The old gods legitimately spoke to Arya using Ned's voice in order to give her strength to leave Harrenhal. So the gods of the North is using the former Lord of Winterfell's voice while calling Arya a "daughter of the North" apparently means nothing ? Seriously though, if Sansa had a similar scene Stansas would never shut up about it and claim it's proof for Sansa ruling the North, but apparently when it's Arya it means nothing ? Typical. Just how Arya naming her direwolf after a queen and said direwolf is leading a huge pack of wolves also means nothing even though we know the direwolves names are foreshadowing for their owners, means nothing as well. And this isn't even accounting the fact that Arya fits Varys' ideal ruler speech, and all of the other rulership/queen foreshadowing Arya has which is way more than what Sansa has. Arya has also expressed wanting to build castles, is the current Lady of Winterfell by proxy, has enacted Northern Justice, has offered protection and food to a man of the Night's Watch, and has major themes of mercy, justice, and service/humility, which are all essential to being a good ruler. Stansas could only dream that Sansa had all of this, but she doesn't, and I think GRRM has put so much in Sansa's way of ever ruling the North that it has to mean something. So unless Sansa jumps through twenty complicated hoops and changes who she is fundamentally than it's highly unlikely she'll ever rule the North.

(about this ask)

"I think GRRM has put so much in Sansa's way of ever ruling the North...."

Let's sit and think about this for a moment. LF, the evil mastermind, is currently scheming how to retake Winterfell with Sansa, is working to get her the great fighting force of the KotV, and you're telling me that Martin is placing obstacles in Sansa's path re: getting North/ruling it? We have a character who has successfully schemed his way from nothing to positions of great power working to install Sansa as leader of the North and you want me to believe there's nothing to indicate she's gonna be in a position of power? We have a prophecy about Sansa slapping LF's head on Winterfell's Wall, so we know the girl goes North, we know she out-maneuvers that bastard, and you're telling me that's Martin's way of indicating it’s impossible for her to end up ruling the North?

I deliberately didn't use general tags on my other posts because I know y'all screenshot anything in the anti tags to harass us, and I don't like arguing anymore because it's such a waste of time. I politely disagreed with you, I told you your effort is wasted on me, I don't know why you're persisting. In my last message, I tried to explain that all of our beloved POVs are used to discuss certain themes. I stipulated that a large chunk of Arya's story involves justice/mercy, but explained that since so many characters examine the same idea, we can't say "hey, hey! Justice=leadership=endgame queen!" I mean, Dany and Cersei are the women with experience ruling and both of them are gonna end the series dead (regardless of how you interpret Dany, tragic hero/fall arc etc, everyone knows it ends badly for her). 🤷🏻‍♀️

"Stansas could only dream...."

I don't need to dream. Sansa watched Ned handle things at court while hand, she's learning how to work people from LF, she is running a household, she's taking care of a kid, she's now being forced to charm a loser....honestly, this is stuff that is just as important for a woman to know if she is to be LoW or a queen, and let's not even get into how, while a prisoner herself she intervenes to save a life, how, although she is powerless, Martin writes her to inspire people to be more, to be better, to loyalty and protection. Don't try to pretend that Sansa doesn't have gobs of stuff that are just as easily used to defend spec she ends up in a leadership role in the North. In addition to LF’s plans we even have the other smartpants Tyrion thinking about what a great queen she would be. We’re meant to draw some conclusions from that. 😅 And, considering Martin's anti war/anti violence stance, her compassion for her enemies and her mercy are why thematically she would be part of a better future for the North.

But, we have the revelation that King Bran is Martin's endgame to factor in. I thought Sansa was destined to be a queen, King Bran has made me question it (why would Westerosi Lords select a Stark to lead them if the North goes free/has it's own queen?). So, I now look at what we might otherwise call foreshadowing with a little more skepticism. Jon literally has a raven screeching, "King" in his ear and we have arguments about a) his legitimacy and b) whether or not he will be a ruler of any kind pretty routinely, so I'm not targeting Arya when I say, nah, that's not foreshadowing. My favs are Jon and Sansa, and I now rethink what certain passages indicate for them.

Maybe it would help if you think of it this way. This isn't some sort of competition in which whoever has the more popular theory will magically manifest it or if you harass people into silence their theory will be wrong. Martin has known his ending for decades, I don't think I will ever get a chance to read it, so the only "winning" there is for us is to enjoy the fandom experience. It is a waste of your time (and mine!) to harass strangers on the internet when none of us will ever be right or proven wrong. Make your peace with us all disagreeing, forever being dissatisfied, and go have fun! The only ending I will ever get is not one that made me happy, but you don't see me making that other people's problem.

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

Talk about the lack of reading comprehension. Some people in this fandom are so fucking convinced that a GNC girl won't have any love interest in the future that they fail to recognize the romantic foreshadowing between Arya and Gendry or what was really going on in this scene. This is post Acorn Hall in which Gendry is finally slapped in the face that Arya is indeed a highborn girl. He also invites her into conversation, showing her to a forge where he feels comfortable and shares information about himself with her. He flirts with her by teasing her with the tongs and then tells her that she looks and smells nice. They then have a wrestling match which is full of double entendre and parallels Brienne's and Jaime's fight a chapter or two before this one which was full of sexual imagery and symbolism. Then they go inside and Tom O'Sevens is singing Maiden of the Tree which is pointedly and explicitly meant to foreshadow their relationship.

After Acorn Hall, Gendry grows a bit standoffish and starts to become very blatantly jealous and more touchy about their class differences. Gendry becoming upset with Arya when she tells Gendry he's not her brother (honestly she just didn't understand why Gendry was stepping in and saying that so of course that was her response!) makes a ton of sense and because of all this, lashes out in order to try to make Arya jealous (which she is considering she's thinking about it 3 chapters later). Gendry was never interested in Bella at all. The fact that they even think this blows my mind. It's also made extremely apparent that Gendry did not go to Bella and lose his virginity, because Arya was still awake when Gendry climbed into bed next to her. He practically followed Arya upstairs. Honestly, everything seems to suggest that not only is Gendry a "late bloomer" according to that world when it comes to sex and relationships, but that he probably wouldn't want to risk fathering bastards, like Jon. I don't think Gendry would just go off with a prostitute like that. Also these people fail to realize that Gendry is barely 15 at this point and was raised in a trade where it would be frowned upon to these types of encounters until they moved on from being an apprentice, that is if GRRM is actually following the real world in this instance.

Either way, Gendry has only ever shown interest in one person and that's Arya, which yeah weird because Arya is so young, but I mean this is GRRM so we can't just dismiss that Gendry started acknowledging that he could grow to have feelings for Arya, and that they will likely have a romance in the future. This is definitely one of the reasons why GRRM separated these characters after these realizations. He needed Arya to grow up and he needed Arya to get the education she needed to further develop her knowledge and skills for the upcoming Long Night and the endgame with a stint in Braavos with the Faceless Men. Like whether or not someone believes these two are endgame is irrelevant because GRRM has blatantly shown us through foreshadowing and symbolism that Arya and Gendry will at the very least be each other's first loves.

Ok, so today I saw a youtube short that was brought to my attention because a fanart of mine was used in it. The topic was the Peach scene:

And I had the stupid idea to scroll the comments... I find the confidence with which some people invent entire passages to be truly exceptional 😂

That's all folks. Good night, hope I made you laugh

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

I just want to take a little time and appreciate this quote by Arya:

Thereafter she and the waif spent their time together touching things and pointing, as each tried to teach the other a few words of her own tongue. Simple words at first, cup and candle and shoe; the harder words; then sentences.  Once Syrio Forel used to make Arya stand on one leg until she was trembling.  Later he sent her chasing after cats.  She had danced the water dance on the limbs of trees, a stick sword in her hand.  Those things had all been hard, but this was harder.

Even sewing was more fun than tongues, she told herself, after a night when she had forgotten half the words she thought she knew, and pronounced the other half so badly that the waif had laughed at her.  My sentences are as crooked as my stitches used to be. If the girl had not been so small and starved, Arya would have smashed her stupid face.  Instead she gnawed her lip.  Too stupid to learn and too stupid to give up. - Arya II AFFC

Here we see Arya’s perseverance and it’s so admirable.  She is comparing the difficulty to learning languages with sewing (and we know sewing is incredibly difficult for her, most likely because she’s left handed) and we see in the books that she accomplishes this difficult task of languages.  In TWOW, we see Arya, playing the role of Mercy who is a native Braavosi, who doesn’t even know the common tongue, meaning Arya was completely fluent by this time.  So we see Arya really struggling to learn Braavosi to someone who is completely fluent in the language in a span of probably 6 to 9 months.  That is incredible!  And not only does she know the common tongue and Braavosi, but she’s brushing up her High Valyrian - it’s likely she’s already completely brushed up on it by the time Mercy takes place - and she’s also learning the tongues of Lys and Pentos too.  

A lot of people don’t acknowledge how intelligent Arya is but when someone presents her with a goal and the means to achieving said goal, Arya can usually accomplish it, be it physically or mentally.  Of course like everyone Arya has her limits and like everyone Arya isn’t good at everything, but she has perseverance and smarts.  Arya may think she’s too stupid to learn and too stupid to give up, but she does learn and not giving something up is a good thing, especially in this case.  The fact that the HOBAW is furthering Arya’s education and skills (most of what she is learning has nothing to do with killing and even her education around poisons and potions could lead to knowledge in healing and medicine) is going to play the biggest role in Arya’s future.  Arya is naturally extroverted and charismatic and compassionate.  She also knows how to rule her face, adapt, detect lies, and manipulate.  The fact that she is all those things and more, that she’s a polyglot, are all good things to have when it comes to politics.  Basically everything she is learning is going to make her an excellent leader and/or Mistress of Whispers and/or Ambassador.  

Arya may own a sword, may know the basics of Water Dancing, may have had to fight and kill with that sword, but that doesn’t mean that that is all she is.  Arya is a complex character who has many other skills, which means she’s not going to end the story as some warrior or kingsguard.  She’s not going to randomly sail away an a suicidal adventure, unless like Queen Nymeria, she is sailing away with ships of refugees to find a new home.  

No, if GRRM only intended for Arya to just be a “sword” or to die in the end or to just leave everything behind, he wouldn’t be wasting his time writing about Arya’s time witnessing the horrors of the War for the Five Kings.  He wouldn’t be showing us Arya protecting and developing friendships with the Smallfolk.  He wouldn’t be teaching her how to survive and how to grant justice and mercy.  He wouldn’t be teaching her valuable potentially political tools in the HOBAW either.  No, Arya’s endgame is going to be important.  Maybe not the most important, and that’s fine, I’ve never thought Arya needed to end up as queen (even though she has a lot of queen foreshadowing) or “winning” in order for her to remain relevant to me or important to the narrative, but I do think she’s going to be a part of Bran’s King’s Council and she’s going to help change the face of Westeros.

[whateverthedragonswant]

Same anon new topic. Do you think there were hints through the series of Sansa being Queen? I heard somewhere that the writers didn’t know till like season 3 or so. I felt out of all the characters, D&D honestly had no idea how effectively write/ translate Sansa from page to screen. Like they literally gave her a non pov character story line for a whole season passing over her political story in the vale!?

Hey, Nonnie! Oooo, that is a very good question.

I have to be honest, I had no idea that she was going to be Queen in the end. I honestly thought she would remain as Lady of Winterfell at the very least, and depending on how the ending went, be named as Wardeness of the North. I never expected her to have anything higher than that because of the whole IT thing, and the fact that I think this would have been enough for her (depending on who was sitting on the IT in the end and how safe she, the Starks, and the North were), and it would have been in line with her goals: safety, her family being safe once again, Winterfell, and the North. But then again, I also didn't expect that Robb or Jon would be named King in the North either tbh.

So upon first watch, I had no clue. I knew they were showing her as a contrast to Dany and Cersei (and Margaery before the Sept scene), and I knew they strongly hinted at her learning from each queen as the seasons progressed from her hairstyles to certain costuming decisions. But I never had any idea that she would be crowned in the end. Because she didn't really want power, not really. Only enough power to keep herself and her family safe, to maintain their position in the North so her enemies couldn't come for her or for them. So it was a very pleasant surprise when we got that moment in the finale. I have never been prouder of my girl! I was right there with Arya:

That was literally me when it happened LOL.

I'm surprised to hear that they knew back in season 3. To me, that indicates that her show ending may be akin to what GRRM wants to accomplish with her story in the books. I don't mean it will end in the exact same way, but that she is important to the ending of the series.

As for D&D knowing what to do with her, I don't know to be honest. I think they made a lot of adaptation decisions that, though tbf I'm not 100% educated on this topic enough to form a full opinion (I've only read up to Book 2 so far), that didn't make sense. I got the whole Lady Stoneheart thing, even Griff and Harry Hardyng, but why didn't we get Val or Dacey Mormont or other characters of the books that should have been included? Even if they just got a cameo at the very least? And like you said, Sansa's whole political story in the Vale got reduced to what we saw on screen. Even Dany's Mhysa Is Master story line got reduced in season 5 (from what I understand by seeing others' posts about it). I really wish I could pick D&D's and the writers' brains about it because to me, it doesn't make sense. Was it due to adaptation? Time limits? Budget constraints? What?

So I think, in some ways, they did know what to do with Sansa (like you said, they knew around season 3 or so what her endgame was going to be) but I think the theme that ended up playing out in certain seasons was the same as what happened in season 8. While D&D were masterful at crafting several different storylines and weaving them all together, sometimes they would converge (like Dany & Jon's for example, or Tyrion's & Jon's), or they would run alongside each other but constantly mirror particularly well (like Jon & Sansa's parallels, or Robb & Jon, or Sansa's, Cersei's, and Dany's, or Ned's, Jon's, and Sansa's, or even Jon's, Arya's, Sansa's and Bran's), they always seemed to pick their top storylines of the season and letting the others that maybe weren't as important to that season's major events fall to the wayside or at the very least be put on the back burner. With season 8, we saw Dany's story line swallow up everyone else's, to the point where it felt majorly out of place and we didn't get fully played out endings for other characters to make sense with their arcs or just them as characters. Because they wanted to focus on the Jonerys angle, Dany's descent and the destruction of KL, the love triangle (though they never officially called it that for whatever reason), and the NK battle (though the battle only took 1 episode which was strange in itself but they were aiming to be the Helms Deep battle of TV so guaranteed that's why). So even though we got Cersei's storyline, Jaime's, Sansa's, etc, the rest of it took a backseat. So if say Sansa's Vale storyline wasn't as important to them (or due to adaptation), that could be why that happened.

I do tend to agree with you a bit, though. D&D tended to write her story a lot better once Winterfell/Jon came into play. It felt like they finally picked her up off of the shelf and dusted her off. Most likely due to the fact that they were honing in on the endgame, which for her they might have figured out in season 3, but everyone else they started planning for near the end of season 6's production I think they said.

Now when I go back and rewatch, I absolutely see the tells they're talking about. Like the whole bells contrast she has with Cersei and Dany. Her list of contrasts she has to Dany (like what happened when they were born), not only with Jon, but also as rulers themselves. How we got to see her operate once she had power in her hands in Winterfell (and I'm convinced this is why she was so respected by the time Jon and Dany came North; this is why it makes me laugh every time Sansa haters say she was power hungry) and what goal she worked towards. How she learned from all 3 queens (Cersei, Margaery, and Dany). Even right down to the physical direction they were given. To her standing up to Joffrey in this one moment. All of it. And it absolutely makes sense now with the lead up to her endgame. But sadly, I hadn't seen it before. But yes, I definitely do think there were hints along the way. =)

I hope I was able to fully answer your question, Nonnie! Hope you have a wonderful rest of your night!!! <3