#i haven't seen s2 and s3 in a long time so forgive me if i am misremembering things

[lxchadora]

❓(Shane)

Send ❓  and my muse will answer all questions honestly.   

Note: I am assuming this is an AU where Shane did not assault Lori or tried to kill Rick. 

Does my muse trust yours? I don't think she'd grow to fully trust Shane but it's so difficult to say without having written Rosita against him, or having watched a version of the show where Shane survived and developed.

Does my muse dislike yours? I can see Rosita getting annoyed by Shane and butting heads with him.

Would my muse kill someone for yours? She probably would.

Would my muse kill your muse? If he turned, she would kill him.

Would my muse save yours? Probably, but I don't see her being willing to sacrifice herself for him whereas for someone like Beth, she would do it.

Does my muse find your muse attractive? Rosita would probably find Shane attractive, but only physically.

Is my muse disgusted by yours? No.

would my muse go on a date with your muse? I don't think it's too likely.

would my muse kiss yours? Maybe. But not with the intention of pursuing anything serious, I think. She'd be more likely to just hook up with him.

would my muse betray yours? No.

my muse’s favorite thing about yours is how pragmatic he is,

the thing my muse dislikes about yours is how cocky he is, at least Rosita would perceive him that way.

[zeta-in-de-walls]

I agree that c!Tommy is softer because he's gone through serious character development and overcome a lot of his past flaws, but my issue I guess is more that I don't like the canon direction for his character. A problem media can have with character development is giving their characters flaws to work past and then having them grow past every flaw, and I'm afraid that Tommy might be doing that. S1 to S2 saw major growth, but S3? What flaws even majorly impact him now? Just my opinion.

I think I disagree with what you're saying. Tommy has never given himself flaws to work past, his Dream SMP character is borne out of his streamer persona that gradually took a more distinct role as the story became more fleshed out. When I describe his character development I'm discussing how his traits changed over time and that is very different from some sort of list of flaws that slowly vanish.

I can talk about how his character has changed while still being the same old Tommy. Part of his character arc has been holding on to who he is as he regains his spark. Like sometimes its about learning to be okay with yourself, which is what some of the s3 streams have explored as he recovers from his trauma with dying and other issues.

Tommy being more self-reflective after having gone through a lot of conflict doesn't mean he's not still a very emotional character who's quick to anger and will often behave irrationally. Like yeah he's changed and has slowly developed some healthier ways of dealing with his issues like starting to recognise misdirected anger but that doesn't mean his character is a list of flaws that have gotten ticked off. And once ticked off his character is therefore bland and uninteresting.

And like Tommy's much more forgiving - but is that entirely a good thing? He's not so good at setting boundaries with others and he's leaving himself open to getting hurt again and yeah he's more forgiving towards others but that's also resulted in more guilt and being more self-critical which is also harmful. And of course Tommy's character in s3 has dealt with the aftermath of trauma a great deal in many very striking and interesting scenes. It's where we see this softer Tommy really manifest.

The point is that Tommy's had gradual development that has felt natural and he remains a consistent character while still having grown. And yeah, there's a lot of positive growth in there and that's a good thing. Tommy's a youthful character and his story works as a bit of a coming of age story so positive development is a welcome thing.

I don't agree that Tommy hasn't had interesting conflict and development in s3. Not all development is personal development anyway, like relationships have had development and Tommy is a character who is very relationship-oriented so you can't just view him in isolation. Obviously we haven't had any Tommy streams in months so we haven't seen him in a while but s3 Tommy is anything but bland for me.

Even so, I think his arc is one of the more complete ones on the Dream SMP and I would welcome it concluding especially as the CC seems less focused on it.

All that said, if Tommy's character doesn't appeal to you then that's perfectly fine! It's not for everyone. You don't need to justify disliking it and the direction its taken. You brought up a lot of issues so I felt like I had to discuss my thoughts on them, given how you did send this to me so I hope this doesn't come off as too aggressive (I know long replies can seem intense). This is all just my interpretation of the story and characters where Tommy has always been my favourite. I don't think his arc has been badly written in terms of character development though nor do I think s3 has been lacking in that regard. I enjoy that he's had lovely character development.

[bonearenaofmyskull]

I enjoyed your S4 speculation a lot. One potential direction I haven't seen in yours yet is the possibility of acquiring Clarice's rights. With the anticipation and expectation of getting her rights, do you think Bryan would prepared S4 in a way to follow up with Clarice - like 'hannigram' will eventually dissolve to make way for the book canon endgame couple? I would like your thoughts on that. I often see Will's death, or 'friends' route so there's room for lovers+soulmate for Clannibal.

I imagine Bryan Fuller has had some plan for Clarice ever since he pitched the first 247 seasons of the show to Mads Mikkelsen back in 2012.

However, from the sounds of the discussion at RDC3, it doesn’t sound like he anticipates there being movement on the rights issue, and additionally, that he thought it would be a shame to lose the investment and development that audiences and he have put into the Hannigram relationship. I believe the audience at RDC3 emphatically insisted that he keep his investment in Hannigram as well, and to my knowledge, he heard them loud and clear. But I wasn’t there, so you might be better off asking for opinions on this from @existingcharactersdiehorribly, @genufa, or @the-winnowing-wind. Whatever has happened to his plans for using an expy if he had to is not clear to me, and his discussion then of how you can’t copyright a performance and why he couldn’t use Will (or Jack?) if he used Clarice and or use Clarice if he used Will, but he could use Hannibal with either when he had previously said that MGM didn’t have the rights to Will, Jack OR Hannibal…well, none of that makes a lick of sense to me to this day. Maybe he was just brain-farting. Or I am.

Bryan’s talked a fair bit about potentially bringing Clarice on as a black woman, someone with a little more biting way about her than Jodie Foster’s version from the film, and someone who is less susceptible to Hannibal than Will, but tbh, he hasn’t said much that has been particularly concrete and what he has said has seemed to run a little hot and cold depending on whether he expected at the moment of any given interview to get the rights. I’ll let you Google his comments for yourself.

I have written a number of speculations about Clarice entering the show and what her relationship with Hannibal, Will and Jack might be like. They’re probably buried deep in my “s4 speculations” and “s5 speculations” tag, or you could alternately look up “clarice starling” or “clannibal.” Buyer beware, though–for a long time in the fandom early on, there was what I would call ship passive aggressiveness (not outright ship war) from Clannibal shippers who felt threatened by Hannigram, which then became reciprocal, and you’re likely to find me saying in no uncertain terms what I thought on that matter if you look back in the tag far enough. It’s not really pretty.

I don’t think I’ve written on it in a while, though, so in terms of my own opinion today, I’d say that right now I’d be surprised if they did more than introduce Clarice/expy in S4, and tbh, I’m not even expecting an introduction at all. Bryan had said that he’d written S3 to end in the way it did without the intention of going to SotL directly after and S4 would be the most interesting story yet for Will Graham, whatever that means. Bryan seeming somewhat negative at RDC3 about having Clarice and Will together and the fan response at the time makes me think that he’d set her to the side, at least for the near future, and whatever pitch he’d have to make in August/September would probably be without her.

In terms of the ultimate question about whether or not Hannigram would dissolve to make room for Clannibal…

…I’m going to go with no. Hannibal has generally relegated being lovers to a position of less significance than being friends, so who knows where they might go with Clarice’s love life, if they even pursue it, but Bryan saying that Clarice will be better able to withstand Hannibal’s influence than Will tends to make me think it’s not likely.

But the soulmates question–honestly, I don’t even think they could tell that story at this point. That ship has sailed, pun intended. That’s the effect of telling a story with such a strong emphasis on parallels and inversions, beginning with the thesis “You and I are just alike.” 

S1 set up Hannigram’s basic connection of being similar in seeing the art in killing and having the profound empathy and understanding of other people, especially the monsters, and if you had asked me at that time if Clarice’s presence could “dissolve” and replace that relationship, I couldn’t have honestly answered no. 

But since then S2 and S3 happened, and the show doubled down on their oneness: Hannibal was “the new Will Graham” while Will took Hannibal’s canon place in the last hospital cell on the left; Hannibal slept with Alana largely to “give Alana Bloom [Will’s] best” (the 5-way sex scene was not about Hannibal and Will wanting to sleep with each other, shipper commentary to the contrary–it was about them wanting to become each other, which I would argue is far more intimate and indicative of the soulmates story); Will’s becoming was about changing to be more like Hannibal (more murderous, more manipulative, more likely to indulge his curiosity), just as Hannibal changing was about becoming more like Will (more emotional, more loving, more able to connect meaningfully); Will deceived Hannibal as Hannibal had deceived Will; all the imagery of their faces morphing together and becoming one, continued through reflections into the third season; each searching for completeness without the other and failing to find it; Will sent a killer after Hannibal and Hannibal sent one after Will, even Stephen; all the God imagery and references and music and them each being the light in the other’s Great Eye as they look to God and see reflections of each other; Will setting Chiyoh up to kill as Hannibal had set up Abigail; Hannibal choosing to try to eat Will to forgive him; the both of them only overcoming the Dragon when they started fighting as one; and then finally, going off the cliff to some kind of death together.

Holy Moses!

I mean, even if Clarice got introduced right away in S4 and the show got all the way to a sixth season and there was the equivalent of 13 episodes per season AND Will Graham died at the end of the “most interesting chapter” of his story…I just don’t think even a great writer like Bryan Fuller could collapse that structure and rebuild Clannibal on top of it in a way that would seem meaningful. Clarice will simply never have the time investment given to her–it’s mathematically impossible at this point. 

Moreover, I don’t think a great writer would want to do that. Why shift away from the investment in both character and relationship that he had worked so hard to develop?

No, whatever involvement any future Clarice may have in the story–assuming we get the show back for enough seasons to get her and the Rights Gods are smiling on Bryan–will have to be entangled with both Will Graham and Hannibal Lecter, together. They’re one.