#i feel like the same arc from brienne’s pov would be less original too

[ilynpilled]

the world without jc povs:

[jaimetheexplorer]

PROBABILITY DISTORTION - Or why Jaime Lannister is less likely to die than you think (part 2)

Most of the popular clues hinting at Jaime’s potential death, come in the form of foreshadowing. There are three hints in particular that are always brought up, in no particular order: “Born together/die together”, the weirwood dream, and “in the arms of the woman I love”. Let’s look at each one of these.

Born together, die together

Jaime (ASOS): “I cannot die while Cersei lives. We will die together as we were born together.”

Cersei (AFFC): “We will leave this world together, as we once came into it.”

This is seen by many as proof that the twins will die together (and is the origin of the “valonqar corollary”, where Jaime is the valonqar and will therefore kill himself after, even though no such thing is mentioned in the prophecy). But in 2011, GRRM had this to say about it: 

“There’s an element of sociopathy to it, where it’s the two of us and no one else really counts, especially outside their family. They’re twins, they were born together, they have a feeling that they’re going to die together. There’s this bonding that they’re two halves of a whole, so who else would they pair with? Anything else is lesser.” (GRRM)

There’s a lot to unpack in his statement, but I want to focus on two things: “they have a feeling that they’re going to die together” and “they’re two halves of a whole, so who else would they pair with? Anything else is lesser.”

GRRM is careful to specify that that’s a feeling they have, it’s not a truth. He might obviously be avoiding spoilers, but I think there’s more to it than that, in the sense that he is using that belief of theirs as an example of the level of unhealthy obsession and delusion in their relationship. This is the point at which their story begins; the point at which they buy into this notion that they’re two halves of a whole and the only ones who matter. I already discussed in part 1 about narrative arcs, how perhaps the main part of Jaime and Cersei’s story is about discovering that they’re not two halves of a whole, and set off on opposite journeys. Indeed, Jaime’s quote comes from early on in his POV, before he returns to King’s Landing and his disillusion with Cersei begins to set in. And GRRM is indeed raising a question that will be addressed later, as their story unfolds: “who else would they pair with?”. Of course, at the beginning of their story, the answer is nobody because “anything else is lesser”, but will that still be the answer in the future? (6’3” hint - probably not).

As the story progresses, the two become disenchanted with the other, with some symbolism thrown in for good measure (such as Jaime losing the hand he was born holding Cersei’s foot with, or the wind in his hair being compared to a generic woman’s fingers, instead of Cersei’s like pre-rift), until Jaime burns the letter Cersei sent to ask him to be her champion in her trial by combat; i.e. win for her or die with her (see this Reddit post for a nice comparison between Jaime and Cersei’s belief they will die together).

With that gesture, Jaime essentially refuses to go die with her and abandons her to her own fate, therefore rejecting the belief they must die together (he later even thinks that he “guesses he might have to face her, if she’s not dead already”). In 2014, when asked about how he was planning to deal with them in the future, GRRM said:

“Well, as for the books, I have two more to write. I’m certainly going to be dealing with Jaime. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is in a very different place in the books than the show has reached now. They are effectively estranged now.” GRRM sees this moment as their estrangement.” (GRRM)

Note how back then George said just how far Jaime and Cersei’s relationship had “reached” in the show, compared to the books, implying the show still needs to get there. Fast-forward to 2017, and the final thread of tv!Jaime and Cersei’s relationship snaps as well. Jaime heads north to fight for the living, leaving her to her own fate in King’s Landing, a snowflake melting on his glove in the same way it melts in the books, signaling the arrival of winter (it’s also interesting that the show has omitted these lines, changing them instead for “We were born together, we belong together”).

Could their “feeling” that they will die together turn out to be true regardless of their journey, even if it means dying at the same time, miles away from the other? Maybe. But foreshadowing often exist to foreshadow the *opposite* of what is stated, and this is especially true when it comes to a character’s own beliefs. This is another important feature of the POV structure. Characters can be unreliable narrators, telling us about feelings they’re still confused about, which are not clear to them, or convinced of things that are not true. The most glaring example of unreliable narrator, without straying too far into other POV’s, is Cersei herself. For example, in ADWD, when she’s confronted with the fact that Jaime has gone MIA in the Riverlands with Brienne, Cersei’s reaction is to dismiss the news as impossible:

“Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come”.

But we, as readers, know that Jaime did receive her letter, burned it and set off with Brienne. Cersei is wrong in her beliefs. This type of unreliable narration can also be at play with regards to beliefs the characters have about their future, such as Jaime bitterly thinking he is “a warrior, and that’s all he’ll ever be” (err, no; we know GRRM does not have that planned for him), or when he thinks about how much he’d rather be dead than a cripple (and then he gets his hand chopped off and has to live with it).

Given their journey, and the way their bond is, in many ways severed, as things stand, and that those quotes reflect a feeling Jaime and Cersei have at the stage of their relationship where their delusion and obsession was strong, I think it’s very possible this is one of those hints that foreshadows the opposite turn of events.

The weirwood dream (a.k.a. “I dreamed of you”)

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

[…] The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

"No," he said, "no, no, no. Nooooooooo!"

The weirwood dream is another fan favorite when it comes to predicting Jaime’s death. I once wrote a long post analysing this dream, and I might rewrite one for the blog, but I’ll try to stick to the basics here. The dream is clearly prophetic since many of the things in it do actually happen later on, and the fact that Jaime has it as he sleeps resting against a weirwood stump suggests there might be some magical intervention at work. Many think that this foreshadows Jaime dying in battle against the Army of the Dead, since Jaime and Brienne here are facing dead people “armoured in snow”. But I think there’s much more at work here. What I think George might be doing is to deliberately get people, throughout the early part of the dream, to focus repeatedly on the association between light = life and lack of light = death, so that when Jaime's sword dies out, the reader's brain is primed to think "He's dying". In many ways, this is no different than those tricks where you ask someone to repeat "fork" fifteen times and then ask them "what do you eat soup with?" and they say "fork".

But a key aspect of the dream is the thing that constantly gets ignored: Brienne’s presence. Brienne is standing by Jaime’s side, wielding her own flaming sword and repeating “I swore an oath to keep you safe”. Once Jaime's light goes out, hers is still burning (and Jaime at that point is still alive: he’s screaming “No” over and over).

When you think about the fact that protection (and fear of failure at that) is one of the biggest themes in Brienne’s arc, and the many lines and dreams in books and show that seem to draw a connection between Brienne and protecting Jaime from death (“Who wants to die defending a Lannister?”, “You can’t die. You need to live.” , “she saw that the dying king was not Renly after all but Jaime Lannister, and she had failed him”, “Nothing is more hateful than failing to protect the one you love”), the fact that she’s meant to be his protector is a relative no-brainer.  Jaime even tells Qyburn as much, earlier in the books. And I think her presence in the dream represents just that. Cersei talks about the flames in the plural sense. There is no explicit, direct connection between one specific flame and one specific life, nothing to suggest that Brienne's flame isn't enough to keep both of them alive. And the dream is a reminder that Brienne would do everything in her power to protect Jaime.

Brienne: "Ser Jaime? I am grateful, but . . . you were well away. Why come back?"

Jaime: "I dreamed of you."

The dream, in the books, is what spurs Jaime into going back to Harennhall and save Brienne from the bear (who is foreshadowed in the dream itself). Why would a prophetic dream, most likely due to magic, where Brienne is defending him from ghosts with her flaming sword, be the catalyst for Jaime to run back to Harrenhall and save Brienne’s life? My money is on the fact that it’s because it foreshadows Brienne protecting him from death when they’ll end up facing the Army of the Dead in the future, with their twin swords. Had Jaime had not gone back to get her from that bearpit, she would have died, he will have nobody to protect him and die himself. Why exactly the magical intervention was needed to keep them alive, remains to be seen (someone should ask Bran, I think he might have a hand in this).

We don’t have the dream in the show, but the show has used Olenna in a similar way. If the weirwood dream suggests that if Jaime doesn’t go save Brienne, he will be fucked in the future because she’s going to be the only light that protects him after his family has abandoned him, Olenna’s line in the show is the mirror image of the weirwood dream, suggesting to Jaime that if he doesn’t leave Cersei, she will be the end of him. And, at the end of S7, he chooses to do the right thing, live her and fight for the leaving.

In the arms of the woman I love

Bronn: “How do you want to go?”

Jaime: “In the arms of the woman I love.”

Lately, this S5 conversation between Bronn and Jaime is the greatest hit of foreshadowing. You’ll find it literally everywhere, from Reddit to Twitter to YouTube. Debates continue over whether the woman in question will be Cersei or Brienne (some suggest it’s Brienne, because Brienne held Renly in her arms as he died - re-read part 1 about Brienne’s arc to see what I think of that), but the general consensus is that this is foreshadowing that he will die. Like with any line that is taken as foreshadowing, we can’t know for sure until the end, but I argue that people might be missing the forest for the trees in this case. I think the debate over which woman it might be is much more important than that line itself. Indeed, people always ignore the last line of that dialogue:

Bronn: “Does she want the same thing?”

This stumps Jaime and ends the scene, leaving the audience with all sorts of questions: is he stumped because he’s thinking about whether Cersei would want that? Or because he’s thinking about whether the woman he loves now is still Cersei or Brienne (it’s no coincidence this is the same episode where shortly before this scene they inserted a totally gratuitous scene of Jaime gazing longingly at Tarth)? Or because he is thinking about how the answer might change depending on the woman? Or because he’s thinking whether they would want to die in his arms? We are meant to make our own assumptions as to what goes on in Jaime’s mind at this moment - Nikolaj himself said as much in a tweet to a fan asking him whether Jaime was thinking of Brienne or Cersei. That, I would argue, is the whole point of the scene. To stump the audience just as much as Jaime and raise these questions.

Furthermore, even if it is foreshadowing his death, it doesn’t specify anything about the circumstances. It could be in battle (which I have already discussed the likelihood of), it could be murder at Cersei’s hands to fulfill their “born together/die together” foreshadowing (which I have already discussed the likelihood of), or it could be as an old man in his castle (which, interestingly, is what Bronn suggests - albeit in his usual crass way).

And since we are in Bronn’s company, I want to bring up another exchange the two have in S7 that is almost never mentioned in terms of foreshadowing. Right after Bronn saves Jaime from being roasted by Drogon, he says:

“Until I get my castle, nobody gets to kill you. You don’t get to kill you. Only I get to kill you.”

Which suggests that, unless Bronn suddenly sells out to the other side and assassinates Jaime (which is unlikely, given that I doubt a main POV character like Jaime is going end his story being betrayed and assassinated by a minor character he barely interacts with in the books), and for as long as Bronn is alive, Jaime just found himself another protector.

So, in conclusion, yes. If we analyse narrative arcs, foreshadowing and GRRM’s style (see part 3), foreshadowing is where we find the strongest case for Jaime’s death, out of the three. However, even then, the case isn’t THAT strong, when you dig deeper into the text and take into account how the foreshadowing fits or contradicts the overall arcs and themes we find in Jaime’s story and that of his two ladies.  

Up next in part 3, a look at GRRM’s writing style.

[scriptscribbles]

I know you didn't reblog it but I saw an ask post on my dash about "5 things you'd change about a TV show/book/fandom if you could" and it seemed like something you may like doing sooooo (1/2)

I give you: Davies Who, Moffat Who, Sherlock, Game of Thrones, ASoIaF (as a separate 5 things to the show), Star Wars, aaaaand Class for good measure. Have fun! 😉

Thanks, anon! This sounds fun!

Davies Who 

Donna remembers. I don’t care how. Just, not this violation of her agency.

Use Donna to call Ten’s hubris out.

Kill Queen Victoria. It was the original plan for series 2, and it works far better for the story arc. The whole thing is about consequences for Ten and Rose and their behavior, them creating Torchwood through their irresponsibility, but as is I think it lacks the sting.

Have Rose not end up with the Doctor. I know, they’ve got star-crossed true love and all that. But I think part of what made them compelling was that they were so gleefully, ignorantly doomed. They were grinning and laughing and flirting from battlefield to battlefield and there’s a wonderful contrast in that. But they also need to face the consequences. I think something like Hell Bent for them would be better, something pushing Rose to realize that it’s in her best interest to leave him even as it breaks her own heart. I think the parallel world stuff is good, though, particularly since Jackie ends happy.

Give Mickey and Martha their own stories in their episodes. Let them be appreciated more for their own strength rather than sidelined by the Doctor’s dismissive attitude. And, uh, don’t have them randomly in a relationship out of nowhere. Build it up or don’t do it. Also, have Martha remain a Doctor rather than a soldier.

Moffat Who

I hate calling for monster returns, but a story of something like the Mara for Amy in series 7A or 6B. Something to suggest the trauma she’s had and the abandonment through surreal imagery. Stuff like Asylum of the Daleks or The God Complex acknowledges it well, but I want more. It’d be even better if she realizes she’s being taken over early but struggles to tell the Doctor or Rory because she’s afraid of them dismissing her. Moffat’s really good at inside head stories so it’d work well I think, particularly if they got Hurran in for it like so many in that era did.

Show us River’s wives. Clara and Jane Austen. Canton’s husband. I know these things are incidental to the plot, but the representation means so much more when you can see it. I love it as it is but I do think more is called for and is a reasonable request.

Cast something other than white people in The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People. Like, I think it’s a really underrated script, but a story about the plight of the oppressed needs a diverse cast, and it just utterly fails that.

Paternoster spinoff. Let it be the SJA to Class’ Torchwood, eh? They lend themselves so much to silly adventures, and they provide amazing representation. Only hurdle I could see is in their heavy makeup work, but I’m sure there’s ways around it, like Strax wearing the Sontaran helmet or Vastra her veil.

Get Davies back for an episode. I know Moffat’s tried, but, like, try harder. Please?

Sherlock

Make the nature of Irene’s sexuality and her attraction to Sherlock clearer because that discourse is hell

Reduce the quantity of not-gay jokes. They do make sense in acknowledging a long history of speculation and I don’t think they need to be excised entirely, but there is a bit too much

Kill John instead of Mary. It’d change up the shape of series 4 a fair bit, particularly given Mary has far less aversion to killing and would probably make quicker work of Eurus’ puzzles, but there’s gotta be stuff to be done with that. Perhaps her not being willing to kill anymore after seeing John shot? That could be interesting. I dunno. I just feel like, good as series 4 was, there’s a better version where John takes Mary’s place and Mary John’s.

More Sally. I know the actress was unavailable for series 3, but it’s a huge blow in diversity to a show that has basically none.

Cut The Blind Banker.

Game of Thrones

Get rid of all straight white men in the writing staff. Let me be clear, there is nothing inherently bad about someone being straight, white, or a man. But as there is so much ignorance towards intersectional issues in a text that needs to be aware of and critiquing them (something Martin generally does well in the books and is sort of a main point of the series), that needs to be shaken up.

Stannis would never burn Shireen and that was the dumbest plotting decision ever. No. Just no. Now, his wife, she would. Melisandre would. His soldiers would. But he wouldn’t. Seeing him pressured to burn his daughter or else the troops will leave him for not being sufficiently devoted to the red god could be a good way of keeping the beat while removing the out-of-character side to it. But as it is it just does not function. At all.

More of Sam’s book scenes. The show gets a bit too fixated on the upsetting material, upping torture and violence to extreme levels, when some of the strongest material is in the quieter character work. Sam and Gilly taking the boat south is one of those.

A different direction for Sansa. I’m not saying keep her in the Vale and out of the plot, I get why that’s an issue. But don’t subject her to Ramsay. Or to rape. Actually, too much Ramsay is easily one of the show’s biggest problems. They seem to think he’s compelling because he’s awful, but instead he’s just awful.

Make Dorne the planners like they are in the books. The show has gotten so much drama out of the likes of Littlefinger and Varys, surely the plotting of Dorne like in the books could make for excellent television. I’m not saying it needs to be the same as it was in the books, there are changes for a reason. But they were changed in the show to the most ridiculous and incoherent thing yet.

ASoIaF

Cut characters/plotlines. Yes, they all have thematic points to make. No, that does not make them all good storytelling. Many of the strands could be condensced, combined, or cut entirely. Not to say the show is the best example of that, just that there is sound logic in changing it because it just doesn’t flow as a story.

If you have to keep alluding to the sexual violence and critiquing it, please muster more sympathy for the victims. Would it hurt, for example, to have a PoV chapter for Shae, right at the end, so we know who she is? Or for Jeyne to get some agency rather than focusing just on Theon?

Have some victories. So many of the plotlines are subversions of classic narratives, like with Robb or Quentyn or Ned’s downfalls. But there comes a point when it gets too repetitive. There’s other twists stories can take that also build in the drama of the world. And if they’re so important to subvert, a standalone novella might be a better approach. For now the amount of these dead-end plots clutters an already chaotic series to make the pacing turgid and the overall scope confusing. Plus, the basic pleasure of telling a story involves victories as well as twists and horrific fates. I know this series is about subverting those pleasures, but it should do that by also finding new pleasures in unexpected places.

Deliver on teased developments. I know a lot of that’s a problem because A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons are transitional pieces to get the characters in the right place after the climactic events of A Storm of Swords, but it means after five very long books we are still reading setup for things we have been expecting for literal thousands of pages, with new characters dropping in for even more setup. It makes the books frustrating to read at times. And saving all the shocking twists in all the storylines for the end of each of the books just makes it even tougher going.

More of the original cast. The series keeps adding in new characters, and while many of them are indeed interesting, it’s frustrating when Sansa, Jon, Daenerys, and Arya’s arcs are all grinding to a halt and their chapters become increasingly spread out. At the very least, if you’re going to keep adding PoV characters, do it like, say, Brienne was done. Have them expand from a prominent character’s storyline and then branch off into their own. Like, I love Jon Connington, but the man is utterly disconnected from basically everything. And there are so many disconnected plotlines now that many of them barely move at all.

Star Wars

Erase every racial stereotype alien

Poe kisses Finn on the forehead or something while he’s unconscious in The Force Awakens. Maybe an “I love you.” I need it for reasons.

No kid!Anakin or kid!Anakin flirting with Padme.

Either make Padme or Obi-Wan the main character of the prequel trilogy. Padme is a more interesting angle to see Anakin lose it from I think, and has better access to the political storyline Lucas clearly wants to tell. And Obi-Wan gets a lot of the most compelling material, his plot in Attack of the Clones in particular feeling like a hint of a far better film.

Cut the Bodhi interrogation stuff toward the beginning of Rogue One. Just have the pilot talked about a lot like they do and have them not actually meet him until the cell. Because as is, he breaks up the first act’s pacing quite badly and distracts too long from Jyn’s story.

Class

Less dialogue. I love a lot of the dialogue, but the show really needs more showing and letting the actors emote.

Make the two-parter one part. As it is the pacing just does not work at all.

Put Detained before the heart stuff. At the moment, the characters take too long to come into focus, not really doing so until Detained. It’s a good opportunity to take an already dysfunctional group, identify their flaws and tensions, and make that a focus of the series earlier on.

A different approach to the Shadowkin. Commit to an approach. Are they comedically rubbish? Terrifying menaces? A parody of toxic masculinity? An othered evil species? They don’t quite hit right and that hurts the plot arc. Also, their voices are edited poorly and that makes them hard to hear.

Promote the damn thing. Air it in a reasonable way in a reasonable hour when people will actually see it. Don’t just cut it loose and expect the Doctor Who brand will save it. If it utterly fails to get renewed, it’s down to how poorly it was promoted.