#i dont think its like the same shit as afab transfems or such but i do think that in a lot of contexts this label is important

[rin-tezuka]

"Everything queer is fluid" I do not know how to explain to you that Not Liking Men needs an explicit label.

[velvetvexations]

Ive seen at least two responses to your antigonism post saying that the word would be divisive because “transfems who are normal about transmascs are the norm” and I really truly do believe that’s probably the case but at the same time it personally feels a little dismissive?? I cant speak for all trans people obviously but I know A LOT of trans people, basically everyone in my life is trans- my blood sibling, all of my friends, my 2 girlfriends (im poly) I am regularly in contact with other trans people/trans communities in several cities across my state, and for me it really does not feel like its a “small vocal minority” of transfems who hold anti transmasculine and exorsexist beliefs.

I want to make it clear I absolutely love the transfems in my community, they are my dearest friends, and I deeply treasure our relationships; but absolutely every one of them that I have gotten close to has ended up saying something to me that made me feel really weird. They either mention something about how transmascs have it easier/transfems have it the worst, or they feel the need to gatekeep things from other trans people& borderline accuse other trans people/intersex people of copying transfems, or they joke and complain about “theyfabs” or justify the use of the term (both of my gfs did this- mind you I was afab and exclusively use they/them pronouns), or they invalidate feminine transmasc and afab enby people (again something both of my gfs did despite me being genderfluid and sometimes presenting feminine).

And thats just some of the things Ive experienced IRL in my own home and within my own communities! If I were to start listing my experiences online Id be here all night!! I honestly want to go on about the shit I see online but I dont have the energy for it- but when I see exorsexist or anti trans masculinity coming from transfems (and self proclaimed tmes) online, the comments/notes/whatever is always filled with sometimes hundreds of other trans people agreeing and venting their own frustrations about “tmes” and it just. Again doesnt FEEL like its a minority. You are literally one of the only TWO transfems I know who makes content actively CONSISTENTLY standing up for transmascs and pushing back against anti trans masculinity. Its not that I think its transfems job to dismantle anti trans masculinity but the ratio of transfems who complain about tmes vs ones who actively push back against that rhetoric feels so disproportionate to how often I see transmasc and afab enbies pushback against trans misogyny and the exclusion of transfems in queer spaces.

This turned into a very long winded vent and Im kinda struggling to conclude my point but i guess I wish it felt like more people cared to pushback against TIRFism. It just feels kinda dismissive to hear people say that transmascs who are hesitant to interact w trans communities just need to touch grass or whatever when in my personal experience it feels like I cannot escape anti trasmasculinity or exorsexism in every trans space I am apart of. Kinda blanking on how to end this ask i hope any of this is coherent.

I wanna emphasize again that the person I responded to specifically was really cool and my emotions in this post are not directed at them

Recently someone said it was "easy to forget most trans women are normal about trans men," and I was scolded because me not thinking that was horribly transmisogynistic was apparently a sign I'd lowered my standards as a trans woman because I'm too discourse poisoned, so now I'm even more self-conscious that people will start to see me that way no matter how much I try to insist over and over that TRFs are a vocal minority.

Meanwhile I continue to get asks calling me a pickme and comparing me to Blair White. I continue to have ten people respond to my every reply going "don't listen to Velvet she's crazy and hates trans women!!!!!".

So yeah. It is, actually, easy to forget that sometimes.

Especially since I'm stuck in a tiny southern town without even the option to make use of what meager community exists in the area because there's no one to drive me several hours to the state capital for their annual Pride stuff. I can't just go outside and be gal pals with all the vast numberless hordes of Normal trans women. I would be shocked beyond fucking belief if I saw two gay cis men in my fucking zip code. With my personal situation I can't even be social with cishet people anyway, let alone other queers, let alone all the trans women others perceive as Normal because they've knowingly been in the physical presence of another trans person a single time in their life and have the option of making that happen when they want it to.

Thank you for the support, anon.

[tirfpikachu]

as someone who has a complete distrust of anyone who labels themselves as radfems since they seem to be (at least a loud minority on every platform) straight up right-wing and racist, thank you for reminding me that some of yall are sane and normal. i don't consider myself a radical feminist by any means and i still dont want to touch the radfem community w a 10ft pole (im a transmasc lesbian of colour... i just cant trust it) but its cool to know theres some people who are normal over there. rock on

THAT MEANS THE WORLD TO MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!! I RARELY GET SUPPORT FROM YOUR SIDE OF THE TUNGLR BORDER SO I TRULY REALLY APPRECIATE IT 🙏 this made me smile so much!

i really am trying very hard to build my lil corner of radblr and encourage nuance, as well as fighting bigotry and tradwife type shit within radfem spaces! i'm trying to make people realize that all marginalized folks can learn to be better allies to one another, while still acknowledging afab/female-specific oppression & celebrating all kinds of gayness, including exclusive same-sex (agab) attraction; aka what's traditionally been called homosexuality. i want to welcome everyone who directly faces or has faced misogyny irl into complex feminist discussions in good faith without aggression, without slurs or unnecessary personal attacks. i want radfem/nuancefem talks to involve terms like male/female as purely sex-based terms like amab/afab, and for trans men to not be any less of a man in society just bc they're female, and ofc for trans women to be as much my sisters as any cis/bio woman so long as they still recognize their male/amab upbringing, and show equal respect to me & my specific struggles as a female person. i have had incredible talks with all kinds of folks in my server! from transmasc radfems to the most wonderful transfem allies, and some folks who add intersex/DSD nuance to our conversations. i don't believe in misgendering, slurs, or anything of the sort to do anything other than harm ppl who struggle with a very debilitating disorder, dysphoria, one that i struggled with for years and years. that's not the way to help anyone! we do still need more open talks about detransition, and plans on how to prevent even more detransitioners, since there really is a higher number of detrans cases than ever before. people who now, like me, struggle with reverse dysphoria and often need expensive procedures. i also want us to talk about transfem experiences, and just gnc male experiences in general, not just to offer support but also learn more about the intricacies of the patriarchy which is essential for my specific brand of radical feminism. i've nicknamed it as tirfism, or me being a nuancefem - a feminist who is against the way mainstream feminism & qweer activism is currently handling female-specific and homosexual issues, and aims to foster nuance on complex topics!

there are more of us than you'd ever imagine, and we're finally managing to find eachother. i highly recommend reading through @pokegyns for more nuanced takes from my lovely server friends. i believe trans voices are essential to nuancefeminism and tirfism, and i'm very blessed to have lovely transmasc & transfem mods on my server. they provide fascinating insights that we really need right now. it's also very comforting to know that there are nuanced trans people in the modern world... sometimes it feels like the lgbt community is completely close-minded to discussions of female-specific oppression and homosexuality. but that actually isn't the case! i think there's a lot of discomfort going around feminist & lgbtq communities, and it's reaching the boiling point. so long as people like you anon are out there willing to research and learn more about non-transphobic, anti-conservative radical feminism and dispell myths about us, i know we will be alright in the end and a bridge between all the marginalized communities is still possible in the near future if we keep working on it. thank you so much for reaching out!!

[genderqueeradrien]

#the way some people act around ranboo is so weird to me #they act like his identity is some sort of achievement or like #a bingo thing where they get to go hooray if they get it right #it feels like headcanoning a bit actually #and this whole thing is even weirder cause these are the same people who were so against romantic cbeeduo #so theyre not ok with headcannoning the roleplay character #but theyre fine when its a real person #idk if i explained it well i just dont like the way twitter boober specifically treat ranboo its so icky

#actually wait im not done #also the way theyre just so quick to misgender people if it makes them more queer?? #like what the fuck#they would not be saying this shit to a nonbinary person whos afab who uses he/they #theyre just straight up misgendering ranboo for funsies

NO YEAH EXACTLY. like people would harass /r cbeeduoers over "boundaries" that didnt exist and now turn around and are just. straight up truthing them as transfem to their face it's baffling. like. they're a real person u don't get to headcanon them or their identity especially like looking at a queer person and going "ok. well i think you're this other thing instead" is really weird in general especially people doing it TO THEIR FACE ?!? bonkers.. and these are the same people who would get mad if u didnt slap the word "platonic" in front of any mention of cbeeduo's relationship like

hot take but i feel like some of the people who are obsessed with the idea of ranboo being transfem (even as a "joke") are acting like that bc they don't see being nonbinary as being "queer enough" or they see it as like. a stepping stone between being cis and being trans instead of a valid identity. like before ranboo came out ppl were all "we all know youre nonbinary lol come out already (/j before anyone gets mad)" and now it's the exact same thing but with being transfem. and it's weird.

[butch-bakugo]

Not to be an ass but yeah...

This lesbian was assaulted.... This trans woman was found dead.... Bi women get beat up on trains and are more likely to be hurt by their male partners than straight women..... This trans man died defending lesbians in germany.... These gay men are in camps in russia... This nonbinary person was killed.....

Amazing how you hear about violence aginest gay and trans people but i litterally cant find a single vetted article that shows violence aginest aro/ace pple for "aphobia". Like its always these excuses;

Aroaces face corrective rape! the "corrective rape" was not corrective and happend because the aroace person said no to sex and it was just mysogny because the aro/ace person was afab n would you look at that, the rapist was a cis man. Thats mysogny. Not to mention 80% of aro/ace people are cis women, trans men and afab nonbinary people aka the people raised litterally taught from birth that sex is not something for them to enjoy and they exist to please.

Doctors consider lack of sexual/romantic attraction to be a symptom instead of an orientation! Because lacking the desire for sex and relationships is a hallmark sign of trauma, abuse and mental illness. Its litterally symptom #1 to struggle with sex and commitment when your traumatized and ive litterally never met a not-traumatized aro/ace. I know this because im a traumatized aro/ace and no, "aphobia" isnt traumatic. Honestly, even if your aro/ace as a result of trauma, thats valid, just make sure your healing and that your honest about it.

Well, when i wore my ace pin, someone called me a queer! Thats a sign that me, being cisgender and heteroromantic asexual, am really queer! Experiencing misplaced oppression at the hands of homophobic and transphobic people dosent suddenly make you gay or trans. Also, they dont know what any of the flags mean so why tf would they care that you dont fuck unless its Tuesday? They just assume all little pins with a bunch of colored stripes mean child groomer gay pedo tranny, not demiaroace or wtf ever. They litterally only hate you because they assume you fuck the same gender or dont identify as ur brith sex. Thats it. It also dosent help that you go running around saying "im SOOO gay" and "im such a dirty little queer." When you are neither. When you say ur gay, they are gonna think ur gay. If they know ur cis and het and dont have sex, they dont give a fuck.

Well, your theory falls apart that aro/aceness is mostly brought on by trauma and mysogny when trans women, amab enbies and cis man aro/aces exist! Ok, you still havent disproven my point because 1. transfems and amab enbies usually have gender dysphoria which, speaking from my own experiences, complicates sex and makes it harder. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and unless you bring to me 5 examples of cis het men who identify as aroace, you dont get to use them as a gotcha. Ive been gay for almost 10 years and ive still never met one, online or irl.

I also never stated that aro/aceness was purely brought on by trauma/mental illness and mysogny, its something that can just naturally happen. Ive just never seen it genuinely happen. Usually the person has trauma/mental illness or is afab or is trans or all three. All of these things, according to proven psychology, can affect the sex drive, attraction and desire for committed relationships.

Thats why every aro/ace you see is either really young and in pain, still healing from trauma or is older and admits to holding on out of spite or admit that its trauma related. There are always gonna be exceptions but unless those excepts make up more than 25% of a thing, im not considering it something totally stand alone. Its also why every ex-aro/ace carries the same story: they identified with it when they were younger and healing from some traumatic shit, they got older and got help, they healed and magically they werent adverse to sex and relationships. That dosent happen with gay pple or trans pple usually. Like 70% of today's aro/ace people are allo 5 years later. If not 5, then 90% by 10 yrs. If not 10, then 99% by 20 yrs.

Its not a coincidence. Adversity towards sex and relationships usually has a foot in the graves of social oppression, trauma/abuse and mental illness. Usually once someone feels empowered by their minority status, heals from their trauma and copes with their mental illnesses, they arnt aro/ace anymore. I speak from experience watching pple i knew when i was 13 go from traumatized and a "romance and sex repulsed" aroace transmasc nonbinary kid who hates allos and gags at sex scenes to being 20 and seeing them all just be ur average bisexual transmasc nonbinary person who kisses and fucks like everybody else. They might throw an arospec or acespec label in their like demi- or -flux but its usally just labels that mean that they are normal person who dosent fuck on sight or isnt always thinking about sex.

Im not saying that every incident of aro/aceness is a result of trauma/abuse, mental illness and bigotry but i am saying that coming to terms with that shit usually makes someone less aro/ace. Im also mentioning how many times ive seen aro/ace people throw out excuse after excuse and label after label that all boil down to telling someone to stop getting therapy and just identify as this because "all labels are vaild and inate to you. You'll always be this." Then they mob you when you get help and openly say your not aroace anymore and ur labled a "traitor" who "wasnt an actual aroace and is just a troll" cause you dare to talk about rhw toxicity and fandomization the aroace communities suffer from. I know this cause im aroace and i dont touch those communities with a 10ft pole. Aint happening. I see a person with a demigreyromantic pin and i turn the other way hopeing to got they didnt see my aro one cause i refuse to talk to pple like that.

The definitions of romance and sex are fluid for a reason and just because you think you dont fit the societal definition of a "average amount of sexual and romantic attraction" dosent mean ur right about society and dosent make you akiocupioangleddemiaroacefluxspike, i promise. All these bajillion labels fall apart the moment you mention that its completely natural for a human's desire for sex and romantic partnership is supposed to fluxuate over the course of your life and multiple things influence it. Im not opposed to microlabels and sexuality modifiers and other things people do in an attempt to find community with others who have the same experiences as them and i never have but what i am saying is that little shit like that dosent oppress you on a societal scale and never has and to think critically about yourself and others to understand that what your feeling isnt always the truth and emotions can betray you.

You arent always a trustworthy person and its always best to make long term decisions on a full stomache, a mid mood, in clean clothes and plenty of energy with enough time to be sure. Quick decisions can fuck you up and the amount of spite and toxicity coming from the aroace communities when you even so much as glance critically at them is worth a few months of deliberation before you go in full speed. Just dont come crying to the normal aroaces when you hit a brick wall 5 ft in and get bombarded with cishet sob stories of people who lost their partner cause they didnt disclose their aroace status, cupcakes and dragons, the gay dads kicked me out copypasta and a bajillion people claiming that their oppressed with their only sources being "trust me bro" and " how dare you question my experiences". If you arnt 100% informed, ur on a hundred blocklists just for mentioning that you dont like the ace flag or some meaningless shit like that.

Trust me, dont bother.

[velvetvexations]

Okay offering a bit of an alternative perspective, let me establish rn im not a fan of tme/tma either 👍

So i think it gets lost on people that tme/tma was coined SPECIFICALLY to describe intracommunity dynamics, like cis people were simply. Not factored into the coining of the terms, or the topics it was intended to discuss.

Honestly, i think the idea that transfeminine people being oft excluded from integrated community with transmasc individuals is grounded in reality, but it absolutely requires intersectionality for it to be legitimized and elaborated on in a meaningful way. Which, well, transradfems dont like intersectionality very much at all.

And speaking as a nonwhite perisex afab person. The trans women and fems who get excluded from trans men and masc circles are excluded for the same reasons poc trans men/mascs are excluded from those spaces. And you know the people i see doing much of the excluding, whether they declare themselves allies to transfems or not, are middle to upper class white transmascs. Speaking from personal experience, there does seem to be a demographic implicitly ignorant of the transfems they are in community with, and a lot of it stems from what i observe as a sort of inability or unwillingness to reject the politics of the communities they were raised in (lots of liberalism and cultural feminism). They sort of unconsciously reinforce socialization segregated by gender.

It’s a reproduction of a general pattern of thinking you see with cis gay people, who also tend to be white: i cant be that bigoted because im x. Obviously, this is also an issue with white transfems, but not in the same ways as they are with transmascs, and i think anyone who sweeps this issue under the rug are being dishonest with themselves. But my point stands that, within the demographic, certain groups of transmascs can be afforded a specific form of privilege, not because they *are* transmasc, but because theyre *not transfem*. Because at its core, that is privilege— not being subject to certain types of treatment, or being less prone to certain conditions, on the basis of not possessing socially marked traits you dont have control over.

Transradfem discourse fails in that it cant decide whether it truly wants to be about intracommunity discussion or not. Whether it treats transmisogyny as a grand or local narrative depends entirely on what’s convenient to argue a specific point. The only thing consistent about their worldview is that transfems are at the bottom, dehumanized, abused, and cast aside always, with no room for any nuance, because to acknowledge situations in which such totalizing logic fails can only ever be an invalidation of their trauma.

And perhaps the most important thing that should be kept in mind when talking about these things is that other trans people are hardly ever the enemy. Trans people with differing viewpoints on intracommunity relations are not the same as sellouts like blaire white or brianna wu who do the “fuck you got mine” shit. This goes for the transradfems who constantly talk down to “transandrobros”, but it also applies to some of us in that we cant let a vocal minority sway our perceptions of the majority. Most transfems dont give two craps about this.

I do not view "not being a transfem" as a privilege for other trans people, regardless of any nuance or moderation one may take that view with. You may not be subject to some extremely specific behaviors, but to call it "privilege" when one faces oppression on that same axis is highly misleading at best. Exclusion of transfems by transmascs is not worse or more pervasive of an issue than the reverse.

I'm also not a fan of how often intercommunity discourse gets boiled down to The Whites Are At It Again, especially because transradfems are often saying that about transandrophobia believers. Plenty of white transmascs are also excluded simply for their masculinity and to say all (including presumably white) transfems are treated like PoC trans men is, I feel, very dismissive and inaccurate.

[something-about-sunflowers]

I liked think-queer's tags here so:

#personally I'm of the opinion that people should be able to identify however they want #as long as they're not being outright hateful like with super straight bs #like if someone is afab but transitions to a more physically masculine appearance but still wears traditionally feminine clothes #and uses she/they or she/her pronouns #i don't care if they call themself afab transfem instead of gender non-conforming transmasc #transphobes aren't going to care either they'll harass that person the same they would an amab trans woman #i kinda thought we were all on the same page with understanding that cishet people aren't trying to sneak into the queer community #the closest thing is 4channers trying to discredit queer folx by making fake flags for pedophiles #and those are always super obvious imo #who do you think is disingenuously identifying as afab transfemine such numbers that its an issue? what would anyone get from that? #ive seen exactly one person who i think was disingenuously iding as afab transfem #and they were a blog that just literally reblogged transfem positive posts adding on that they were an afab transfem #like it was pretty obvious they wanted someone to argue with them so they could pull the 'so much for the tolerant left' card #oh and also they reblogged genuine terf shit #thats literally how i found them was i was blocking people who reblogged a terf post #i dont think its fair to consider that kind of person a representative of afab transfems #but again even if you completely disagree about letting people identify however they want #at least have some respect for intersex people #c'mon #the trans community needs to do better about intersexism

confession: i still don't understand what tme/tma js and i dont understand the google definitions because im kinda dumb, so i dont understand the arguments ): i feel like its too late to ask. it means transmysongony exempt right? i just. i dont get what that meabs!!

broadly speaking, TMA - or "transmisogyny affected" - means "amab transgender and nonbinary people." i.e., people who are the "intended target" of transmisogyny in the same way that Jewish people are targeted by antisemitism or gay people writ large are targeted by homophobia.

TME - "transmisogyny exempt" - is basically Everyone Else, including cis people as well as AFAB trans/nonbinary people.

the idea of the construction is to describe the ways in which transfems are harmed by cis people & "TME" trans people as well. but I have a few problems with this language:

I think it's absurd to describe cis men as "exempt from transmisogyny" because a major purpose of transmisogyny is to socially discipline GNC cis boys and men. as a thought exercise, I like to point out that I could have had the exact same experiences as a child/teenager, but if I hadn't transitioned, I would have magically ceased to be "affected by transmisogyny". I think this is Fucking Stupid because a large part of my childhood was defined by transmisogyny I didn't even know was transmisogyny yet.

we already had perfectly good language for what "tma" is intended to represent. namely, transfem. idiots and jerks misusing that language, describing themselves as "afab transfem" or whatever the hell, doesn't matter to me when 1. people are going to play silly little word games with literally any terminology marginalized people use to describe our experiences, and 2. the replacement terminology is actively worse at describing things.

whenever people use "TME" they're usually referring specifically to other people in the trans community, making it a transparent - and, imo, Worse - replacement for "afab." just say "afab" or "transmasc." let's be honest with ourselves.

while I think the ability to describe transmisogyny is necessary in order to express what it's like to be transfem, I feel that people often treat transmisogyny as if it's a separate construct that happens to intersect with other forms of transphobia and sexism. and I think this is silly, because transmisogyny is sexism is homophobia. they're all parts of a self-reinforcing structure and cannot be properly understood until we accept that you don't slay the hydra by continually cutting off its heads

I'm an extremely spiteful person. Every time I see a post that's based on the idea that Everyone Who Dislikes This Is Transmasc, or that Transgender Women Aren't "Allowed" To Be Butch And Therefore Don't Exist At All, my anger gauge fills up a little more. someday it will hit its maximum and I will be able to unleash my ultimate. that or I'll have a stress-induced heart attack