#i don't think terfs are actually feminist the way they think they are. They hurt cis ppl too as well as trans ppl

[fairydares]

loook i get why the idea of riding the "anti/pro" fandom disk horse makes people gag a little in their mouth and try to opt out entirely, but here's why i went from feeling exactly the same way to taking a firm profiction stance. I've been meaning to make this post for a while.

~10 years ago, I posted a fic for the first time and it got its own harassment campaign. The fic wasn't even sexual, and wasn't going to be (it remains incomplete). It was accurately rated T on fanfiction.net. Anyone in the Fairy Tail fandom will understand this: I literally got harassed for writing a "Lucy leaves the guild" fic💀.

After many nice comments, someone left a pretty nasty one. Hurt, I messaged them back. They acted super attacked that I'd responded (lmao) and after we argued, threatened to "rip my shitty story apart in the comments section" if I responded again. I told them "go ahead lol."

They went ahead.

Now know that it was a relatively small harassment campaign, but at the time, it was devastating. Right around then, I wound up in the hospital. After I got out, I went to excitedly check my fic, and found several reviews saying things I wouldn't repeat to my worst enemy. I was suicide-baited more than once, told "thank fuck you finally abandoned this shitty story, dumb cunt," stuff like that.

There were several accounts involved, and I can't say for sure, but I suspect at least a couple different people were involved, though probably at least half of it was one person.

All the other comments were screeching about how I hadn't updated, mostly. "NO UPDAAATEE WHY DOES THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS TO MEEEE??!!!" was one that stood out after I'd been miserable in a hospital for an extended period of time.

Idk what people think is going on when FT fic authors write this trope, and frankly I don't give a fuck. Because while I was partly writing the story out of some young, cringe feminist rage, I also did genuinely have a real story I was compelled to tell. I was inspired by another, popular fic I loved which used the trope to talk about how trying to shoulder our burdens alone really just hurts both ourselves and everyone who cares about us.

My own story was ultimately going to have similar themes, with more focus on strength, what it means, and in what contexts earning and having it actually matters. In retrospect, no wonder I wound up in hot water, because at the time "Lucy vs. Strength vs. Misogyny" was the FT fandom's Designated Nonsensically Activist Debate™. But that's partly why i wanted to write about it; engaging with the fandom had gotten me thinking about it 🤷‍♂️

Not too long after that, FFNet oh-so-benevolently granted us the ability to delete comments from our own stories (they never took my reports seriously at all, afaik). I deleted all or most of the harassers' comments (may still be a one or two up, and i'm fairly sure there's a couple comments defending my fic from the harassment) without saving screenshots, which I really regret now. I was just so mortified and full of self-loathing about the whole thing that i wanted to forget it completely. Something that had brought me joy at a very lonely, vulnerable period of my life had turned so negative, and i couldn't even tell the people closest to me about it without being made fun of for writing anime fan fiction.

I didn't understand why this happened at the time, but--after a period of trying to forget/bid out of it all with a slight anti lean (a common approach I see people use, and one which I'm not proud of adopting)--I just had to figure out What the Fuck Even Happened There. And I'm telling you, after years of reflecting, wrestling with both sides, and educating myself, that this "status quo of harassment" culture which pervades fandom goes way deeper than you think and comes out of a way darker well than you probably realize. An astonishing amount of this is, quite literally, TERF shit and evangelical shit.

Trying to be in fandom and take a stance of, "Anti/Pro shit? Ew, I'm Not Touching that," is like swimming in a heavily polluted river and being like, "Poison? Cringe. Not me lol."

You might be lucky enough to be in a less-polluted part of the river (AKA a relatively non-toxic fandom, in which case good for you!)...but tbh this rhetoric and peer-signalling will still seep in.

I can't stress enough that pro-fiction, AKA "proship", is the normal, leftist-about-art-and-sex opinion. Pro-ship is against all the horrible things you're against; in fact, pro-ship isn't trivializing real trauma by equating it with fictional trauma, or trying to apply literal evangelical/radfem solutions--which are proven not to prevent or help. Profiction/proship is literally just saying, "Fiction is fiction, reality is reality, and the two don't have a 1:1 relationship. And historically, trying to censor just things we've decided are bad has done nothing but get LGBTQ+ and POCs censored. Therefore, depictions of illegal things shouldn't be censored." That's it. "Proshippers all ship problematic ships," is a brazen lie. Many of them share other fans' disgust for those ships, they just don't believe in censoring fic authors over it.

It is also taking a stand against harassment because--and I hope my own story has helped drive this home--as with all groups who adopt ingroup/outgroup thinking, antis are defined by their tactics, not actual stances on real, serious issues. What happened to me was absolutely a result of anti, "it's okay to 'bully out' anything I just don't like" mindset pervading fandom. In a way, this was the mindset's final form. They didn't even feel the need to cite a reason the trope was "bad" or "wrong"; it annoyed them, and they viewed their own feelings as a valid enough pathway for policing to go right ahead and do so.

In the interest of offering solutions instead of just bitching about problems, I might make a "how to know if you've bought into these types of views"-type post sometime. Also might come back to this and provide some sources/citation.

[olderthannetfic]

Re: discourse about using outliers / the worst examples of a group to justify generalizations-- this is also a problem with the femslash wank asks

I'm one of those filthy f/f folks who actually does want to see more femslash relative to mascslash, but I'm not anti-fujo or a terf or telling ppl to change their own tastes. I'm proship / SALS and kinkmato and I think fujoshi are great; I appreciate their massive contribution to fandom culture including AO3's existence itself

But some ppl seem like they just hate f/f fandoms generally and want a reason to bitch about us? and I've felt super demoralized by it whenever I read your blog lately

Like the complaints about f/f being too wholesome and fluffy and that this is somehow bad?? tumblr is C O V E R E D with cutesey fluffy bubbly m/m art using That Artstyle we all know and nobody complains about it. But when sapphic art is like this suddenly its cause we're boring sexless puritans who dont know what pussy should look like? The huge amount of kinky weird depraved f/f thats out there gets totally erased and the wholesome stuff gets scapegoated as a symbol of regressiveness.

Or the constant lecturing to "JuSt CrEaTe It YoUrSeLf" as if nobody who says they want more f/f would actually be making it??? How do you KNOW they're not making it? Are you stalking the tumblr of every ao3 f/f author to make sure they never expressed the opinion you hate , and vice versa??

Yeah a few awful ppl have been super obnoxious, terfy, or puritanical bullies with how they talk about this topic. But when you constantly bring those people up to demonize talking about it at all it feels like you're creating a taboo around it because you want those annoying lesbian feminists to shut the fuck up. Cause how dare we, right? How dare we express desire for something in a way that reminds you patriarchy exists.

You won't even let us express that we're bitter or sad about feeling like a minority even amongst other queer women. You won't let us express simple jealousy without interpreting that jealousy in the most terfy antiship bad faith way possible!

I won't defend those who actually harass ppl or moralize over ships. I won't defend anti-fujos. But when you constantly lump me in with those people just because I looked at AO3 stats and went "Hmmm, it would be cool if this was more balanced :/" or whatever it feels like you just don't want me to say anything at all

--

Is this about me personally? Yes, I agree that topics that are repetitive start to feel like an attack.

But with regards to AO3 stats, this is my pet peeve, as you probably know if you read here often, and I'm unlikely to stop being angry about it.

AO3 is extremely unusual in the history of fandom for being a very big, very multifandom site that is not m/m-specific but where m/m outnumbers other things. There have been large-ish slash archives before. There have been and still are other large, multifandom archives, from FFN and Wattpad, which are in AO3's weight class, to medium size ones like MediaMiner. The spaces that aren't m/m-specific generally have f/m vastly outnumbering m/m. They also make it harder to get stats than AO3 does.

I don't have an issue with people looking at overall fandom stats and complaining that f/f has the short end of the stick when it comes to fanfic broadly. I do object to people pulling only AO3 stats and going "The one anomalous clubhouse that looks like this is the problem" and pointing at m/m.

It's the same problem you point out, just in another direction. After being told "Okay, but the amount of m/m..." constantly for years, people are fed up and never want to hear it again. Even if it's phrased nicely. Even if the person saying it is also hurting.

[lesbianrobin]

not to return to the drama of yesterday/invite more but the terf accusations are wild because like. the whole fucking thing is that it's trans exclusionary radical feminism. what makes terfs terfs is the transphobia particularly transmisogyny.

and accusing somebody of being a terf for. being mean to a fictional man. is like... first of all i actually don't think they believe anything they're saying like i do think they're just trying to use social justice language to make themselves seem justified but BESIDES THAT. it is actually so insanely transphobic and misogynistic to act like Being Mean To A Guy is equivalent to trans exclusionary radical feminism. terfs are not primarily hurting men they are primarily hurting trans women!! it is quite literally in the name!!

but "terf" has been watered down so much that now people just use it as an insult against any lesbian they don't like. if you commit the crime of not worshipping men then you are actually a radical feminist which means you are also a transphobe and now people can attack you for not liking men but in a Woke Progressive way. it does not matter your actual ideology or even if you're trans yourself All that matters is that you dared to not center men 24/7.

and the worst fucking part of all of this is that as always trans women are being shouted over and disregarded! these people don't CARE about trans women all they care about is bullying dykes. and they're losers so they invoke trans women as some bizarre justification for their actions while doing Nothing to aid or advocate for trans women. it's just like such hateful loser behavior and it pisses me off.

[velvetvexations]

I feel like a lot of the trans women saying that masculinity/manhood is always rewarded in everyone because patriarchy often forget that the opposite is true, actually, for people who are seen as women/put in the "woman" category.

Because yes, trans women are usually forced into manhood and "rewarded" for being men, and punished for being women. But that's not because manhood is universally rewarded in everyone, but because partriarchy sees having been born with a penis as "man".

It also sees being born with a vagina as "woman", and every deviation from that is *also* punished.

Yes, people who are seen as women/girls may have more freedom in expression of gender (depending on where they are from. I hate when ppl act like people afab everywhere can just dress like men without punishment. There are so many countries with laws on what "women" (and those treated as women because of their agab) can wear, and if anyone believes for one second that breaking these laws is REWARDED in any way, they're so fucking deep in their own head and need to talk to someone from these countries) but that freedom was fought for by feminists! Feminists have fought to be simply just allowed to wear pants. It's ridiculous to look at how it is now (in the western world) and make conclusions on that without looking at *why* it is that way now and how it was before.

And people are usually expected to grow out of their tomboy-"phase" by the time they reach their late teens, or early twenties at latest, and become a feminine woman, wife, and mother. If you don't do that, your masculinity gets punished.

And the masculinity of people afab is also only (begrudgingly) accepted (in SOME places in the world) as long as they're still visible as women or girls and their masculinity is hot and serves cishet men. As soon as they step "too far" out of these roles (by being non-binary or men, or being "ugly", fat, or anything that would make them "undesirable"), their masculinity gets punished. Horribly.

It's really infuriating when (trans)radfem trans women try to act like their experiences are universal and whenever someone says something that disagrees with them, they must be lying or "delusional" (yay, ableism! so progressive /s) for thinking that they were, in fact, punished for their masculinity or manhood...

Sorry for unloading this on you, didn't know where else to put it. And thank you so much for listening.

I think a major issue here is that no matter how much we try to reason things out and work through why they act the way they do, radical feminism, trans or cis, ultimately comes down, at some point, to a deliberate decision to prioritize egocentrism and their own desires over seeing other people as real, actual people - not even other transfems, who they just sexualize and try to control, or call a TERF if they can't. And it's hard to reason with that.

Like, they have to know on some level that they hyperinflate trans women in particular being "socially murdered"* to use as social capital and terrorize younger** transfems into isolating themselves. Maybe a very long time ago for some of them it came from the distress they felt from the legitimately immense danger transfems face in a variety of contexts, but they've shot far beyond that now and just don't really care. They've built a cage of unreality around themselves that makes me feel like I'm talking to aliens.

Like the other day, I was talking to one who insisted that the tee-em-ees will not show up for me. Like, I said they did, and she said they won't, and I was like, but they DO! They have! Always! I've seen it with my own eyes, directly for me specifically! But it was just "who hurt you," "let yourself be angry," "don't settle for just scraps," "they won't treat you better if you throw yourself at their feet," "social murder," and it's like WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? ARE YOU HAVING A STROKE? WAS THIS A DREAM YOU HAD?

And what about the deliberately cruel fuckery, the constant derision of the most petty things like forcemasc? What the fuck do they get out of wrongly asserting that women are never punished for masculinity and never have a problem with being viewed as masculine, like why are they doing that, what is their goal? Because it seems like it's literally just "mock and invalidate the sexual interests of others and deem it an inferior copy of our thing."

What do they get out of misgendering cis and trans men for forcefem funsies and telling them to suck it up? They don't really believe that their forcefem joke is the only thing that might make an egg crack. That's extremely obviously a lie. They're doing it because they want to, because it's their kink, because they don't care about the feelings of other people, and they can use transmisogyny as a convenient defense when people ask them to moderate literally any of their behavior for the comfort of everyone else to literally any extent while demanding everyone else shut up and defer to them on every single topic in every single situation.

And this stuff with D20 and Ophiuchus and the transmasc character being treated better? A lie. Just fully making it up. Inventing it. Fabricating it. For attention.

I've never had one acknowledge it when I've tried to explain that I first learned about all of this from transmasc friends bringing it to me so they could defer to my opinion.

They're determined to stay like this. It sucks.

*truly a phrase that makes me livid to even think about now, they reduce it to about the same level of seriousness as forcefem jokes, every single time it's so thoughtlessly hollow and self-obsessed but you could guess that from it being a fair description of every thought they externalize

**let me make this clear, I'm referring to young adults, I am not accusing anyone of being predatory towards minors nor am I saying the motivations are necessarily sexual anyway, although clearly transradfems don't care about the effect their hyperbole will have on the mental health of minors exposed to it and trained from a young age to never trust anyone, so underage transfems are very much a concern here, but not in the sense that they're being directly and personally abused in any way

[tirfpikachu]

so you say you're not a terf, bc terfs don't exist... radical feminism was always inclusive of transmasc-identified people, anyways, right? so "tirf" as a term doesn't make sense. you were always open to all female folks, including dysphoric "females" of radblr...

but are you actually inclusive of ALL female people?

often, non-trans/dysphoric radfems will say they are, but show an insane amount of trans stigma in their rhetoric, and their gnc activism will have limits; if you choose to modify your body in certain ways, no matter if it's smth the heteropatriarchy hates, you're still some kind of frankenstein monster. you will regret it everytime and someone needs to stop you from mangling yourself. it cannot be done not just for dysphoric reasons but with feminist intent - after all, transmasc-identified people are inherently weaker feminists. they're weak for being dysphoric and giving into it. they're brainwashed. they shouldn't get tattoos, piercings, or total changes in lifestyles like passing as the opposite sex through body modifications. it will always be bad for you and to help you, radfems need to mock it out of you and use language you hate until you know better. and even if you recognize you're female and are proud of it while also being proud of being transmasc, of being gnc in that way, that's still a personal failure on your part as a feminist and it's a slippery slope; you need to stop asap or you'll only hurt yourself, hun. don't you know that you can't please the patriarchy that way? because of course, the heteropatriarchy fucking loves when female ppl take things to make themselves hairier, speak lower, and no longer have big breasts to stare at. all the creepy males sure are cheering for a new transmasc dudebro to hangout with! they definitely aren't pressuring transmasc ppl to keep their og bodies. except yeah, they are, they really, really are, and so are misogynistic transfems who date transmascs too. they still demand for female ppl to look a certain way for them too. it's not a simple 1:1 case of transmascs only ever doing it to please The Patriarchy.

and look, i get it, i myself lived as trans for ALL the wrong reasons - i did 1000% want to please the new modern gay norms. i did think me being a soft cute little trans boyfriend was inherently more lovable than being a dorky butch gf, i really did think that it was a more feminist thing to do since it meant being the Most Gnc Possible and that the gnc female cool kids were all doing it so i should too so i could get their affection by doing it. i really did think that cis/non-trans gender nonconformity was less badass and attractive than trans-identified gender nonconformity. i thought they/them pronouns made me more attractive (though not to the patriarchy - to fellow lgbtq ppl) and that if i passed as male i could finally be a cute transmasc yaoi couple with a fellow transmasc, which was an inherently better thing to be than a gross, boring cis butch4butch couple. gender was my playground in terms of pronouns, names and presentation, but i got in over my head. i came SOOOO close to transitioning despite not truly thinking realistically abt what passing as male would actually look and feel like. i really truly did feel peer pressure in lgbtq spaces. i was already so deep i thought it had to be this way. everybody was so excited for me, after all... i was getting so much attention and affection. i also felt like i was never good enough as a butch, i was always a weak twinky barely-masc girl no matter what i did, so i thought testosterone and surgery could fix me. i wanted to be cooler. i wanted to be handsome so badly. i still do, but i learned another path for me. i want to save gyns from regret and i want to prevent painful detransitions; i'm not saying that trans identity hasn't hurt anyone. it has hurt me. same as how bisexual identity harmed me, back when i was extremely repressed and used it since i was into both transmasc & cis/bio women and thought lesbianism couldn't encompass both. turns out it can. knowledge is what's missing in this. gyns need to know everything, not just what benefits the tra movement. but taking ppl's identities away, mocking their dysphoria by using terminology that viscerally upsets them and overall being ableist and gncphobia as fuck to transitioning people is NOT the way to go. not letting transmasc ppl feel pride despite their often debilitating and dangerous struggles is harmful. it DOES mean you are what well-meaning tras really do mean with the word terf.

if you don't accept ALL female folks, you aren't a real radfem. your sisterhood is conditional and you look down on people with dysphoria whether you like to admit it or not. i know it's easier to wish it all away, to not be inclusive to transmasc folks, it very much does make our jobs easier as feminists and female advocates. but as someone who has suffered living as trans, facing trans stigma and struggling with chronic dysphoria, i refuse to leave transmasc people behind. they still need the sisterhood. they are still my siblings.

i also, controversially i know, welcome ANYONE who risks actual misogyny in their day-to-day lives. including transfems who pass as female, which shockingly enough is a reality now. not all transitioned transfems face it ofc, most in my experience don't, but even those who don't still face horrible gncphobia and i'm fascinated in hearing their unique experiences, as it can help us get a better picture of the patriarchy in order to dismantle it. unlike a lot of radfems, i really do view non-bigoted/predatory gnc people as my allies, male/omab ppl included. gnc male gays/bisexuals and non-bigoted bio women have ALWAYS had a powerful relationship. very rocky at times ofc, and they still do not face female-specific disprivileges and can 100% weaponize that against us, but it's still incredibly meaningful imo. patriarchy-defying male/omab folks have always had a special place in my heart - i can be wary, ofc, since i have faced misogyny from both cis gay/bi men and transfems, but i also find solace in knowing that male/omab folks are willing to go against gender norms, whether they use the trans label or not, and i view dysphoria as a serious condition. i care about dysphoric ppl the way that i care about disabled people in that regard, and that includes protecting disabled bio men and transfems from ableists. if that makes me a naive traitor, so be it. my dysphoric experiences changed me forever.

what we 100% need to do is demand of them to show real allyship with female folks, with bio women and transmascs. not the weak bullshit they have been giving us this far. they have been harming us very deeply as a group, i know. but i don't believe they're all creeps or misogynists, or that them being gnc or transfem-identified makes them more likely to be creepy or misogynistic; when they are, they are in a way that is very unique to transfem identity, so it always ofc stands out. it has attracted a considerable group of creeps and bigots, i won't deny that. transmasc identity also brought in a wide array of internalized misogynists and homophobes, after all. but i don't think it's fair to say that no transfem faces misogyny, or that anti-transfem/gnc omab bigotry isn't horrific, or that they can't be wonderful allies to the radical feminist movement.

terf has become code for all kind of nonsense. but its original meaning still stands: a transphobic feminist. and some of y'all really are proud trans stigma enjoyers. and as a detrans feminist, i refuse to allow that in my own personal politics. dysphoria isn't a joke. being gnc in a way that you find cringe isn't a crime. transition isn't always some nightmare scenario, and trans AND detrans bodies aren't "ruined" or always caused by internalized bs and predatory doctors. i don't want the affirmation-only model. i don't want more painful detransitions like mine. i don't want tras to get away with all the harm they have caused, and i want there to be proper education on what cis/bio gnc womanhood is actually like. especially non-trans lesbian experiences. but i don't want to take away trans identity if it helps people make sense of their dysphoric struggles, or is a fun way for them to play around with pronouns, names, presentation, etc. we need to include grey areas in these discussions. otherwise we really are furthering harm as feminists. sometimes - outside of the usual bs reasons - "terf" is just a plea from tras to stop being so fucking dismissive of dysphoric struggles and stop being genuinely gncphobic to normie trans-identified people who are just enjoying life and saying fuck you to gender norms.

i get that including trans identity in feminism can complicate conversations, i get it. but this is work. activism is supposed to take work. and we need to examine heteropatriarchal things from ALL angles. and now that transition is a solid thing, and trans identity is smth that's not going anywhere in the lgbtq community, tirfs need to exist to deal with these complex topics and interact with them in a non-inflammatory way. you as a radfem don't need to be a tirf, or a nuancefem. your work still matters. just help feminism however you can. but stop assuming tirfs & nuancefems are there to add chaos and be stupid and we're all naive for daring to tell transmasc people, hey! you don't need to let those transfem activists walk all over you! you don't need to listen to transmascphobic rhetoric! you being ofab/female is an axis of oppression worth acknowledging! us doing that with the word tirf, with a play on the term terf, we're not hurting you or the movement. and yeah, we tirfs include transfems who face misogyny, and we're generally more open to male/omab allies, but we're not watered down libfems. libfems HATE OUR GUTS right now. we are still 100% considered transphobic whiny bitches. we do work you may not understand, and that's fine. just leave us be.

and for the love of all goddesses in the universe, please learn to show actual allyship to transmasc people. if you claim to welcome all "females" you better be showing that courtesy to female/ofab trans people. i know ableism and trans stigma (which imo often falls under ableism) is rampant on radblr, but if you're going to claim to care about detrans and soon-to-be-detrans people, you need to care about currently dysphoric female people too. they deserve sisterhood, they deserve female siblinghood. otherwise, don't be surprised if those transmasc feminists call you terfs and stick with tirfs & nuancefems instead. don't assume i'm like you just because i'm detrans and moved away from trans identity. i care about my female siblings, my female/ofab brothers. them waking tf up and embracing their female feminism is a GOOD THING and we need to be there for them once they peak. they don't deserve the mockery and disdain y'all have been showing them. they deserve so much better. don't be mad that radblr is being "invaded" by tirfs. look inwards. why is there a need for tirfs? why is it in demand rn? it's because radblr is failing its transmasc members. radblr is brushing off dysphoric struggles and harassing transmasc radfems off the platform. it's being purposefully cruel and adding to dysphoric stigma, and often being extremely gncphobic too.

if you are transmasc orbiting radblr, you're not alone.

if you are transfem and willing to fight equally for transmasc rights, transfem rights and bio/cis female rights, you're welcome here.

if you are a cis bio male and agree, we can make use of your time and your energy as an ally too. just don't be a dick, or we'll shoot it off.

tirfism is here to stay, and it's a response to how radblr is currently failing its dysphoric gyns. it is making more progress in actually addressing tra issues meaningfully than inflammatory self-described terfs and anti-trans radfems ever have. get used to it!⚡

[biohorror-human]

what are some other “dogshit” takes you used to hold but dont anymore?

When I was in middle school I was pretty transphobic and anti-feminist because YouTube sent me down the conservative "crybaby lgbt needs special treatment" "feminist destroyed compilation" pipeline.

Used to think capitalism was "not great, but the best we have right now" up until like a few months ago. Which doesn't sound like much but I'm 18 so I was basically a different human 6 months ago compared to now. Cause like relativity or whatever.

Really, really recently I started using Tumblr. And I had never heard of TERFs before I got on here (I don't use ANY social media except YouTube which, let's be honest, doesn't count- and discord, which I only used to find people to game with / group call with friends. I was not active in any social servers.) and so when I came across "radfems" I was like "women's rights are super important, and there's not enough happening right now. Let's see what the RADICAL feminists propose as a solution" and basically it was just me trying to sympathize with their ideas and being called a moid and told to kill myself but still sympathizing with their movement because I thought they were just untrusting of men and I could prove myself somehow. After a few weeks of that I said "y'know what fuck this I don't want to be your punching bag anymore" at which point I got picked up by the tirfs (trans inclusive radical feminists) which was good for a bit but they're basically just intersectional feminists who are detrans and think that it's trans people's fault that they transitioned instead of their own, so I stuck around them from a distance and ultimately ended up leaving after I got into an argument with the user "tirfpikachu" (large name in the tirf community) which went like this:

Me: (long argument in the form of a reblog that basically just says "I don't think your analysis of this post is right and you're blaming this person for things that aren't happening")

Tirfpikachu (in dms): (*sends like 15 increasingly angry messages back to back to back and then blocks me)

Then I realized "wait, I never actually got info from the "TRA's" that the tirfs and terfs hated so much" and sure enough the "TRA's" are actually way fucking better than both of those groups. They're also not even a group, it's literally just trans people and all the terfs do is see a trans person with a bad take and then assume that everyone else believes that. So yeah I probably could've skipped a lot of pain if I just believed the trans people at face value. But I like getting hurt I guess.

That's all the big ones I can remember. I've only been doing my method of "getting into arguments to better understand things" since a few months ago (basically when I made this blog) so there's not much I've grown out of yet. Basically I just learned what Marxism was and with that lens a lot of my views changed practically overnight.

[genderqueerdykes]

This is no hate to you at all (I've been following you for a while), and I'm curious as to why "man hating" isn't considered progressive. If it's because "man hating" diminishes Trans men and Transmascs the right to exist, then I can understand that. I know TERFs and radfems (they're literally the same ngl) usually go overboard about it, and are borderline supporting the idea of committing eugenics towards men since they somehow don't understand that marginalized men do exist.

I consider myself an Intersection Feminist, but I'm still learning about the concept of intersectionality. I would like to know what's the difference between man hating and having valid criticisms about men (especially cishet white men, including those who are also rich, Christian, abled bodied and neurotypical). I acknowledge that marginalized men exist, but I'm still trying to figure out what is man hating and what is just a criticism.

Anything helps! I'm just really confused by this, and I would like to see someone clarifying this.

I'm curious as to why "man hating" isn't considered progressive.

i know you're just asking a question, and i deeply appreciate that. but this particular sentence is extremely disturbing. please re-read this sentence. please ask yourself how that could ever, possibly, in any world be progressive. like seriously. i am very curious as to how you see it as progressive. please just take some time to reread that and think about it. to help, let me phrase it like this:

"I'm curious as to why "woman hating" isn't considered progressive." Is this okay to say to women?

women can and do hurt people. terfs and rad fems are women. some of the most abusive people in the queer community are literally cis women. terfs and rad fems are cis women. they're not safer to be around because they're women. abusive mothers exist. abusive partners exist. if it's not okay to hate all women for the individual acts of women who have hurt people, how on any planet in our solar system would it be okay to do the same to men?

profiling people based off of their genders is not progressive. hating men will not patriarchy go away. hating men will not stop toxic masculinity. only a very tiny percentage of men benefit from patriarchy. there's a high chance most men you meet are actually at a disadvantage, either for their disabilities, their race, their neurotype, and so on.

man hating hurts queer men. i'm happy you're asking about this, but it disturbs me deeply that people think it's 100% okay to hate even queer men. queer men. why the hell would it ever be progressive to hate gay men? that's literal homophobia. hating bi men is biphobia. hating trans men is transphobia. hating intersex men is intersexism. this affects genderfluid, genderqueer, nonbinary and gender non conforming men.

this hurts men who haven't hurt you. manhood isn't what hurts us under patriarchy. it's specific men. you should never hate someone who hasn't hurt you. that's never okay. telling men that they'll always be evil hateful abusers who can never get better strips away individual mens' accountability from situations where they hurt someone else. hating a man for being a man is removing their ability to be accountable, especially if you're deuhmanizing them.

profiling strangers based off of the way they look, act, and sound hurts everyone. there are trans women and transfemmes who have to go stealth or never transition. there are trans women who identify as men. there are trans women who received shitloads of hate for being a man before they came out. is that fair to subject them to? is it fair to subject a questioning trans woman to scathing hatred before they've confirmed it or come out?

man hating is not gender liberation. we are not being oppressed by manhood. we're being oppressed by individual men. getting rid of manhood is not gender liberation. it's literally the exact opposite. we have to liberate everyone of every gender, or none of us are free. i hope this helps. thank you for taking the time to stop by and please consider that you and everyone else needs to care about men because we are human. we are not evil abusive assholes who deserve to be hated, especially when we are queer, and the people hating us are also queer. this will never, ever be okay.

here are some more points articulated by another asker:

[redditreceipts]

Hi! ex radfem cis lesbian back. I saw you asked why I reconsidered my viewpoints, so I will answer:

Firstly, I do want to keep the context in mind that this is simply my experience and very well may just be a me thing.

I gravitated to being a radfem at around middleschool, because I was sexually harrassed by a boy. It gave me the "all men are evil" complex. But I slowly realized I only used my hatred as an excuse not to face my trauma. There are great men in my life, my father and brother are some of my biggest supporters. My brother even tried to beat up the guy who harrassed me lol. The hatred I felt for every male I saw (excluding my family), the fear I felt, made me intensely paranoid and unhappy. I also found it was just wrong. Like anybody, men are not a monolith. Somebody born into a male body is not instantly evil. I've actually been harrassed more (sexually and in general) by females in my life, so I realized the generalization didn't hold up.

Of course, it is obvious that males are more likely to commit violent crimes, even if my personal experience was opposite. But I try these days to see the best in everyone, as not assuming somebody's moral value based on their sex has helped me live a more happy life. When I say I find GC spaces a bit extreme, there are a myriad of blogs who constantly say all men are evil, all men should die...I think that sort of talk is unproductive. Like it or not, males will always exist in humanity. So we should be finding a solution to the social issues and dismantaling patriarchy instead of invoking ire in innocent people (People are more likely to listen if you are nice to them...I have seen many men get mad at the "all men are trash" thing because that would include them, even if they haven't done any wrong. Whether or not it's fair we have have to watch our words doesn't matter -- this is just the proven best way to get others to take your points seriously).

As for the trans stuff, I just don't really care these days. Using different pronouns doesn't affect me as it is just words, so I don't care. Much like men, I view all trans people as individuals and don't develope an opinion on them as people based on identity alone. I find operating in the world this way is just easiest, and helps me not develop a bias. (Also as a GNC lesbian I have been mocked for being "a trans woman" by what would be considered "transphobes" I suppose, because I look like a guy, so I feel how some TERFs try way too hard to point out "obviously trans people" just hurt GNC people. But I know that's not the majority of TERFs.)

That is just trans people however. The trans "movement" (quotes bc it's not technically a movement but you get what I mean, the social atmosphere etc), which is not a person but a common ideal, has a lot of issues. My biggest issue being that it's hard to have actual conversations about it without walking on eggshells. My best friend is trans actually, and 100% accepts her sex. After all, you have to be the opposite sex to be "trans" at all. So even if I was harrasses by a trans woman, I would not think of all trans woman that way, much like how I do not demonize all females because I was harrassed by a handful.

That said - The social class of "men" (not the person or sex, but the way we have normalized socialization and the like) has many issues, and I am 100% for tackling these issues. I think we as a society must be open to talking about things even if we disagree with them or it makes us uncomfortable. Now more than ever we nees loud feminist voices. You may be just a tumblr blog, but one blog can go a long way. Even if I don't 100% agree with every post you make or radfem ideals or whatever, I am very thankful to have people who are not afraid to hold discussions and discourse. I do think the hatred for radfems is unwarranted to the degree it has reached. I wish we could all have civil discussions. So in short: keep posting and keep talking, thank you.

Heyyy! I am first of all really sorry that my answer comes so late, it's because I didn't really have the time and/or energy to read all of the asks I got, so I didn't open yours - I hope that this is not all too late of an answer :)

I guess that you are making various points here. First of all, I understand how the hatred of men can be unproductive in some ways. I agree that for many women, they don't gain anything out of fantasizing about the death of all men or reading stuff about how men suck and are evil. However, I also think that this is useful for some women. I have to say that even though I don't hate all men, this type of rhetoric awoken me out of my non-feminist slumber, and I think that this can be a helpful outlet for many women. I mean if there were any real-world harms proven from this rhetoric, I would obviously be against it, but as for now, I just think that this rhetoric can be useful for some and not so useful for others.

Like my blog. Is it productive to make fun of weirdos on the internet? Some people will probably say that this just makes them angry and depressed, but other people will find something cathartic in those posts and find their own experiences represented for the first time. And for those who find it not to be helpful to read that stuff, I would expect them not to read it

Secondly, I'm glad that the trans stuff doesn't affect you, but I have to say that it affects me (and many others). I'm politically active and have gotten so many creepy comments and abusive behaviour from entitled males who believe that they are women. Where I am politically active, analysis of male socialisation is totally absent and most politically active women are not really safe. I have also been told that I can be non-binary if I don't identify with the gender stereotypes, and I identified with that.

But I guess those weren't really your points, your point was just that those are the reasons for you not to be as active anymore. And that's fine! I obviously hope that you still believe in female empowerment and women's liberation, and you seem to. I'd almost go so far to say that some of your beliefs are still those of a radfem, but maybe you have other stuff to focus on, and that's totally cool ofc!

Also, thank you for saying that about my blog and say hello to your friend from me hahah

[not-gray-politics]

anyway the americanized version of 4B is just a repackaging of terf ideals and we should call it what it is (I don't have enough context about korean culture/history to pass any judgement on the original movement; this post is specifically about the most recent version of the movement that's been gaining popularity in the U.S. since the election.) I support boycotting misogynistic industries and cutting off toxic people, especially when they vote against your rights, but if your response to this is to start talking about the inherent evil of men and cutting off all men in every circumstance when about 53% of white women (the vast majority I see making 4B content recently) also voted trump. I think your focus is in the wrong place. The call is coming from inside the house. Divorce that shitty husband who's been exploiting your labor, break up with that boyfriend who doesn't respect you, stop talking to that relative that's celebrating your loss of reproductive rights, stop supporting that business with a trump sign on their property, absolutely. I will always encourage you to find people who support and care about you and to build community and safety for eachother. But don't turn around and hang out with women who advocate for the exact same right wing bullshit with a coat of pink paint and call it "4B". Don't rely on terfs who think you're inherently weaker and dumber and will always remain less powerful than men. They do not actually care about advocating for your rights, they only care about hurting the right people and keeping you afraid. They'd vote against you in a heartbeat if it meant hurting a trans woman, they probably already have. They shout about girl power, sisterhood, womens' solidarity, but they do not believe we can overcome misogyny in any meaningful way. There's a lack of faith that we can ever prevent the root causes of misogyny, that men will always be inherently predatory and unable to control themselves around women and have power over us and there's nothing we can do to stop it or change it, so they believe in bandaid solutions like segregation to "protect" us, (inadvertently placing the responsibility on women to make up for mens' actions, which is my primary issue with 4B, not everyone has the choice to just "avoid all men" or "avoid toxic men" or "not have sex/children/etc.";) instead of advocating for meaningful activism and change so that no one needs protecting. They're not feminists, they're defeatists. It's a belief in mysogynist dystopia, and you should know by now how I feel about dystopia. (It's a tactic to drain your motivation, keep you from imagining a better world, and keep you complacent. Always resist dystopia.) They will not be there for you when it matters. Remembering the intersectionality of these issues is so important right now. You cannot advocate against trans rights, gay rights, poc rights, disability rights, or fat liberation and then say you advocate for womens' rights. Racism and misogyny are historically intertwined. Fatphobia and racism and misogyny are historically intertwined. homophobia and transphobia and misogyny are historically intertwined. ableism and any form of eugenics are DIRECTLY linked. Half the shit we hear about any of these minority groups is just a recycled antisemitic talking point. To the bigots in charge we're all the same. If you're not a white, cishet, financially powerful able-bodied man, they want you to be subservient and fall in line. We share the same fight; for our dignity and for a better future. It's equal rights for all or none, you can't separate them from eachother. If they're coming for one of us they're coming for all of us sooner or later.

[doberbutts]

I saw someone claim that the reason some trans men turn to talking about transandrophobia (with of course the underlying implication that that's a bad thing) is because they're former terfs who have had their terfy social circles turn against them after coming out as transmasc and that's why they now believe that "men are oppressed" and so on.

I find this to be an odd rationalization that I don't really buy, but do you know if this is actually a common lived experience?

I mean. I have yet to poll every single trans masc talking about whatever word of the day we're calling our problems? I am literally Just Some Guy and I am also very much not the trans masc police.

But I don't think it's that common. I also don't think this was asked in good faith, but I'm answering it like it was anyway. It's just not really an appropriate thing to ask someone, and especially not when you consider that it doesn't really matter either way.

Like, yeah, any former beliefs you may have had may influence the way you theorize in the current moment, that's not an untrue statement. It's also really toeing the line on the same logic that terfs use that say trans women will never be rid of their "male socialization". It's pretty much the gender swapped version of "trans women that talk about transmisogyny are actually former incels" which is also just not an appropriate thing to say to or about someone.

Personally I don't think it's that weird that transgender people of any and all genders are positioned well to discuss the ways gendered oppression hurts us. Many trans people have experiences with being treated as multiple genders, sometimes simultaneously, and mostly to harm us. Discussing the ways that gender can be both sword and shield is often just a discussion of lived experiences. No radical beliefs necessary.

I also personally don't think that it's very prison abolition website of you to imply that someone having problematic beliefs, behavior, or social groupings in the past means everything they think of is now tainted beyond repair. I thought we wanted rehabilitation, not forever punishment?

I never called myself a terf, and the singular friend I had that did become a terf was kicked out of our mutual friend group for their shitty beliefs and was never invited back. I've always rejected radical feminism in all of its forms because I don't think it's kind or fair to blame entire demographics for systemic issues, nor do I think entire demographics are somehow incapable of causing harm along systemic lines just because they also experience that systemic oppression.

I may not have known the correct words for the label at the time, but I have always been a black, intersectional feminist. From the time I learned what "transgender" was, I have always been trans-friendly. Even before I figured myself out. So this rational not only doesn't work with me, but it also is pretty offensive all around.

[ugly-anarchist]

Shiny new About Section because why not:

Trying out the name Coye, go ahead and call me that if you want.

They/them only, don't use gendered language to refer to me. This includes dude/guy. (I sometimes refer to myself with gendered terms or indirectly as a man/woman but that doesn't mean anyone else gets to.)

Alloaro, genderqueer/nonbinary/trans, intersex, bisexual/mspec

Note: I will block you if you tag me in random "if this gets x notes I'll do x" posts

DNI/DNF/Just stop existing thanks:

Proshipper (Someone who supports all fiction, including ones that are racist, pedophilic, or in some other way hurt real people. If you think "fiction doesn't affect reality" you suck. This includes people who support "real person fics")

MAP ("minor attracted person" aka pedophiles.) and supporters

TERF/SWERF (Trans/sex worker exclusive radical feminist. Sex negativity and transphobia of any kind aren't allowed. My feminism is explicitly pro sex worker and pro trans woman)

Exclusionists (I'm alloaro and I belong in the queer community specifically for that reason, if you disagree with that then leave)

Asexuals who plan on talking over me when I talk about Aromantic specific issues. (If your message contains "well I'm asexual" then actually shut up, I don't want to hear it)

Panphobes

People who are anti-bi/mspec lesbians. Bi lesbians have been around since the creation of the term lesbian and defining lesbianism solely on lack of attraction to men is weird, exclusionary, and not how we should be doing things.

Intersexist / intersex fetishists (anyone who uses "DSD" terminology, anyone who thinks you can transition to be intersex, Perisex people who post intersex fetish porn in the intersex tags, you think afab people can't be transfem or amab people can't be transmasc or use "tme/tma" labels, etc)

Transid/radqueer (If you think you can transition to be intersex, disabled, or into a different race then you're weird. Stop)

"Pro-para" (I'm generally of the opinion that harmless paraphilias/kinks are none of my business and you aren't a bad person for having them but the pro-para community tends to also support pedos/zoos and thats a hard "you deserve prison" from me)

Transmeds (people who think you need dysphoria to be trans and other shitty transphobic beliefs)

Also: I'm the admin of an AlloAro community here on tumblr, join if you're interested.

[nerdby]

In case you guys were wondering I don't post a lot about being queer or follow a lot queer blogs cause I used to follow queer rights really heavily in the past. And really I just got burnt out on all of the traumatic stories, and all of the drama in the queer community online. Like I struggle with hyper-empathy and sometimes it feels like I get whiplash from other peoples' PTSD.

And it's like people are so shitty to each other online and all it's proven is that a lot of queer people are the biggest hypocrites. Like people beg to be accepted and to have their trauma heard and validated, but the instant a less popular or vocal group starts to have their trauma heard all hell breaks loose. And it's fucking disgusting.

Like did y'all learn nothing from when Roe v Wade was overturned?

That only happened because TERFs stupidly believed the US government wouldn't overturn the rights of cisgender women in their efforts to hurt trans people.

It's classic divide and conquer.

And by buying into anti-transmasculinity queer people are giving fascists the chance to take away even more of our rights cause they're too busy vying for the spotlight to focus on fighting the actual enemy: Christofascist Nazis and gender essentialists.

I'm not blaming trans women, so don't even fucking try to go there because gender essentialism goes both ways. I'm an intersectional feminist that believes in the true message of the Barbie movie: The patriarchy hurts everyone, including men. Gender essentialism is not feminism. It is the belief that either men or women are inherently evil or that one gender is somehow inherently superior.

Anyone perpetuating misogyny or misandry is part of the problem, and that goes for trans people too.

Especially the whiny zoomers who refuse to go out and vote here. Y'all are fucking giving our rights away cause you'd rather complain instead of make an effort.

And I already know I'm going to get hate for this, but trans women and femmes who hate trans men: Are you familiar with the stereotype that men refuse to go therapy because they don't wanna be laughed at???

Do you think maybe it's possible that some of you have internalized that stereotype cause you were socialized as men and have unprocessed trauma you need to work through??? Rather than taking it out on the people who are fighting for YOUR rights??? Cause they want the SAME rights???

And the same goes for fucking trans men and gay guys who are convinced that feminine men are the root of all homophobia.

PTSD is a thing and it's not something to be ashamed of, and if you think so then you're part of the problem. So with all due respect get your heads out of your fucking asses, stop with the petty infighting, go to fucking therapy to learn to communicate and listen to each other. Cause it'd be nice for the queer community to feel like an actual community for once👌🏻

Sincerely,

A Very Burnt Out & Traumatized Bisexual Enby❣️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈

[hummingbird-hunter]

Ough maybe I'll write like. A full post one day but I'm having a migraine and. Ough this is not going to be eloquent. Anyways

I think a lot of you tumblr trans people need to go outside. Like I don't mean in it a mean way; but for me personally I was a part of irl trans community before I was on tumblr or had any online trans community and honestly a lot of issues people are talking about here are. Not a thing irl?

Like some sort of fighting between transmascs and transfemmes? That's not a thing in real life. Maybe it is a thing in real life but only when almost every person in the community is chronically online or something.

For the longest time I didn't understand the concept of transmisandry and I've seen it a lot on this webbed site. I was even like. Cautious of it because I know several irl trans men who after they transitioned and started passing started being misogynistic to pass. Or just misogynistic. So at first I was like wait is it like the incely Men's Rights Activism trans edition?? And then I read more and apparently transmisandry is. People not believing that trans men experience misogyny??? People thinking that trans men have the same standing in society as cis men??? Which is like. Have you Ever been outside. I want to apologize to some of my mutuals for being critical when y'all were posting about transmisandry I never said anything outloud but I was judging you in my mind. But now that I know what transmisandry really is I'm like. In my defense that's not a thing in non-radfem non-chronically online spaces. At least the spaces I've been to?? Like I believe you that that is something that's real and that you've experienced. But also that just sounds so unbelievably chronically online and stupid to me. Like what do you mean people think trans men don't experience misogyny. Do people think misogynists can sniff out trans men before they transition and like. Not be sexist to them?? Anyways.

And like. A lot of other issues that I would've expanded upon if my head didn't hurt like a bitch. Like those are some twitter ass problems. Like people not being feminist anymore?? Because they think all feminists are terfs???? Which is like. I know in some countries terfs have like. Actual standing in society and government and like. Are an actual threat. But like. In most places if you go Outside. Feminism is good and needed and terfs have no friends. They only can go on twitter and tiktok and shit. Most irl feminist spaces are. You know. Actually feminist. At least from what I've seen?? When I'm Outside. Anyways. I think a lot of you and I say that with all the love in my heart need to go Outside

And like I know that sometimes transmisandry is also a problem Outside. Sometimes trans infighting is a problem Outside. Sometimes terfs are a problem Outside. And if you experience these problems Outside its valid and I hope things get better to Outside where you are.

But a lot of you have seen these problems online and never ever went Outside and I think you should try it because a lot ofbthe time Outside is not tumblr and normal not chronically online people are Normal about stuff so maybe you should talk to Normal people yeah yeah. Fuck I'm hungry but if I get up my head will Hurt again. Anyways go Outside and also send me Beams of Get Better. Bye.

[kiefbowl]

https://www.tumblr.com/imanes/181546472260/httpswwwtumblrcomdashboardblogluckystrabis?source=share

would you analyze this queen

>bc that one post about attachment to womanhood is still hurting people’s feelings, let’s keep talking about it.

There is a link they have at the top of this post that doesn't work for me, but otherwise I'm not sure what post they're talking about. So that might have some missing context. I also want to point out that you sent me a reblog of the op, and the reblog is dated 2018, so this is more than 5 years ago written.

>radical feminist notions of gender socialization correctly frame it as a traumatizing process.

Now there are two ways of interpreting this: 1. they are actually talking about radical feminists or 2. they are talking vaguely about the women online who may or may not call themselves either radical feminists, radfem, or terfs who might say any number of things.

Generally speaking, the idea that radical feminists talk explicitly about "gender socialization as a traumatizing process" is a little wonky. This isn't a tenet of radical feminism specifically as I understand it. Gender socialization has garnered a lot more discussion relatively recently in more explicit terms by public self identifying radical feminists because of the concerns of transgender ideas, sometimes even developing in response to ideas set forth by transgender activists. I don't think many radical feminists would hold tight to the idea that gender socialization is traumatic to men, since men are socialized to benefit from the sex hierarchy. If it's traumatic to anyone, it's women, though the idea that being socialized into womanhood is always and totally a traumatic experience just feels a little...rote. Not truly grasping the entirety of what socialization is. But to be clear, I don't think a lot of feminists go about making this point first and foremost, but rather talk about specific ways gender socialization is traumatic to women and girls (which is in service to argue the larger point that the sex hierarchy is real and that women are a marginalized class). I doubt op is truly interested in engaging with those ideas meaningfully, despite calling radical feminists "correct" about it.

The other interpretation is, well, "I read some tumblr posts that said this." I'm sure you have. Me, too. Some really intelligent women are on tumblr and they make a lot of intelligent posts about gender and gender socialization. I also know that when you have a little insular pocket online in any community, it's easy for those people to mimic what they say to each other unthinkingly. This is not a moral judgement on my part, and I don't think it's exclusive to feminists...it's inclusive to everybody (finally something that is!! the weak human psychology!! lol). My only point is, if you want to go find someone saying things that will make you mad, you can go do that online because you can find at least one person saying the exact thing you want them to say, so you can respond to it. It becomes an outrage machine, despite not really reflecting what a group truly believes, or what most people believe, or what is meaningfully understood. I only say this to suggest perhaps this post is one of those posts that is responding to a general sentiment they have vaguely seen and not meaningfully tried to understand and have reinforced by reading posts that are just sort of nothing burger but have the right words strung together in the precise way to make op cringe or whatever.

The point is, if you want to understand what someone is saying to truly understand it, you have to ask them. So if someone posts "gender socialization is traumatic" with not much else context, that's already such a vague sentiment it would behoove you to be intellectually curious enough to ask them "what do you mean? can you expand on this so I understand it?" And if you're someone who wants to be understood, it would behoooooove you to welcome the opportunity.

If you were to ask me if I think "gender socialization is traumatic" I would say "It depends on what you mean." So we're already hitting a wall to understanding each other. Anyway...

>a contradiction arises, in that case, when they assign positive moral traits to female socialization

This is another example where I'm not going to say this doesn't happen, but this is not an understanding within radical feminism. That doesn't mean a radical feminist couldn't believe this, it just means that the texts that support radical feminist ideas are not interested in sanctifying being a woman as some de facto morality. That is a ridiculous claim and proves that op is not interested in engaging with radical feminist texts as serious scholarly works. In defense of op, they are probably young and have never had their analytical skills challenged outside of, say, high school class. It does lead me to believe this person is responding only to vaguely feminist ideas they've seen in posts that have made them mad without trying to meaningfully understand them. So, +1 to me for guessing that :)

>(and femininity by extension)

Even more factually wrong than the statement above. op cannot understand when feminists discuss womanhood, that it is not an interchangeable word with femininity. Because in op's mind, femininity is innate, whether they realize they believe that or not is no matter.

>because, much like society in general, they believe that an ideally traumatized woman is able to access moral high grounds that other people cannot.

Truly offensive and in fact betrays that this is what op believes. op believes in a connection between morality and suffering. Why do I know that? Because they interpret this from ideas that have nothing to do with morality. If someone says "women are oppressed" they have not made a moral statement about women. If anything, they've made a moral statement about men. If you read "women are oppressed" and you read "women are moral" you have made that connection.

This is also a good time to point out that if this was something they were writing for school, they would need to then support their claim with sourced quotes. It's convenient that this is tumblr where they aren't compelled to do this. Who said this? When did they say this? How many of them said this? Did they say this explicitly? Are you extrapolating? What was the context? Where was it said?

But the true interesting part is "society in general." It's so fun to see in action MRA points infiltrating supposedly quote unquote liberal/leftist gender ideas...how does society in general demonstrate seeing the traumatized woman as the most moral person? Outside of your favorite genre tv scenes you're able to recontexualize to your heart's content. When a woman kills her abuser, how likely is she to serve more time than he would have if he had been sentenced to abusing her? QUICKLY!

>“i was socialized female” becomes an admission of guaranteed prosociality, a set of traits that are only ever harmful because they are at risk of exploitation via external forces.

Even if I didn't just argue that this point is moot because the previous points are not true or supported by evidence...hwuh?? What are they saying. Does this even follow from what they've said so far. "prosocial" is a word I had to look up, and it's a psychology word meaning "intended to help or benefit another person or group." They haven't talked about this at all. Also, prosociality is not really a form of the word, "prosocial behavior" is a phrase used.

So, to rephrase: "I was socialized female" becomes an acknowledgment (by feminists) that prosocial behavior is guaranteed, a set of traits that do not causes harm but are at risk of exploitation which would then cause the traits to be harmful [editor's note: to whom?].

Again...what? (I also cut the "via external forces" because how are you at risk of exploitation via internal forces lmao).

Even if I was to do a good faith read of this, it would be like "when feminists argue that women are socialized female, they are saying that women are socialized into prosocial behaviors." Which, yeah okay...but what of it? Prosocial behaviors are good therefore women are morally good because of femininity? This is just not a thing feminists really say.

>this is why many radical feminists view trans men as safer & more politically enlightened than trans women

The religiosity of op is apparent all the way through. The talk of morality, "politically enlightened"....etc etc. Feminists aren't really interested in who is more politically "enlightened." Trans men aren't included in feminism because of how safe they are or even how politically enlightened (whatever the fuck that means) they are...it's just that they're female. They could be the nastiest most awful person in the world and they're still included. Like come on now, did someone go to bible camp when they were younger? I think someone went to bible camp when they were younger. (It wasn't me)

>- because of their proximity (imagined or otherwise) to femaleness, to daintiness, to softness and benevolence.

boring sentence

>“male socialization” is synonymous with antisociality, and becomes lobbied at trans women as a whole when individual trans women do things that radical feminists deem “unwomanly,” from having controversial political opinions to committing violent crime.

Feminists don't care about womanly-ness. I know op thinks we do, and specifically "radical feminists" because that's who they said (I haff to laff), because they see the argument that feminists have that "woman are female, and women are socialized into femininity" as saying "women are feminine, which includes being female", but anyway...let's talk about how they include in "unwomanly" committing violent crimes???!!!???!! whuahauhahah???? Is it perhaps not more sane to think that women are concerned about violent crimes men commit because of the harm they cause not that they aren't feminine behaviors???? A deeply unserious post I am regretting writing 1K about it.

>the gender socialization model becomes a way to moralize sex assignment by prescriptively linking particular experiences of trauma to particular personality outcomes.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, it's a way to describe OPPRESSION BASED ON THE AXIS OF SEX!!!! AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MORALITY OF BEING BORN FEMALE!!!! TRAUMA IS A SIGN OF MISTREATMENT HELLO??????

Here's a fun tip when analyzing the work of someone: if they start talking about the moralizing within an argument that is not about morality, they are in fact the moralizing one and do not know what they're talking about. Go ahead and disregard whatever they're saying, they don't do their homework and will never seriously try to understand anyone without bringing up morality.

>it is no longer a theoretical framework meant to honestly and meticulously analyze how children become gendered subjects.

weird online speak, why do people talk like this. how "children become gendered subjects"....okay. Well they become gendered subjects, you weirdo, by gender socialization...they thing you pointed out "radical feminists" were correct about as being traumatic? also why meticulously. again the religiosity...we must suffer through the virtue of hard work by being meticulous. I would guess that when this was written op was 16 years old, had definitely been to bible camp once, and had their own laptop that their parents didn't monitor, and are deeply afraid of being a bad person more than anything in the world (but only as judged by their peers).

>it is now used to reproduce the very gender roles that proponents of the framework claim to be against.

10 second fart noise this conclusion is not supported by your own argument. In this essay, I will talk about how women are always nice and that means feminists think women are always good. In conclusion: feminists meanie weanie actually. Yeah okay buddy.

[our-mspec-experience]

Hi! I'm so glad I found your blog, especially during these very rough times for MSPECs and queer people as a whole.

I'm a bi lesbian, and I only recently came just a year ago. Before I did some googling, I had no idea what an MSPEC, Mogai or anything like that was. Actually, truth be told, I'm still learning what some terms mean and I love seeing new terms be brought to light/discovered.

However, I'm also very aware of BLERFs (Bi Lesbian Exclusionary Radical Feminists), TERFs, and MERFs (MSPEC Exclusionary Radical Feminists), as well as general bigots and bigoted queers/exclusionists. As someone who's experienced all but one of the above, I understand that it can be very uncomfortable, especially for young, closeted or confused MSPECs to feel safe, happy and accepted by a broader group of people.

Before I got tumblr, I honestly thought I was the only open bi lesbian on twitter lol. I know now that I'm not, just that our numbers are low due to the above reasons and many more that I did not name.

My biggest tip for any and all MSPECs is this:

Don't be afraid to come out. There are people who love you and accept you. As long as you aren't hurting anyone or anything, I can assure you that a lot of people, hidden or otherwise, know what you're going through and will always be willing to help out.

Before I finish the ask, I might as well as you a few things:

. If you use a flag, what one do you use to show your identity?

. Is there anything you use in particular to stump exclusionists when in a one-way debate and two-way argument (aka a regular chat with an exclusionist, assuming they're capable of rational thinking)?

. What are some pointers/tips for anyone confused about their sexuality but feel as if they sit on the MSPEC spectrum?

. What are some of the funniest encounters you've had with other MSPECs?

Because the questions are being to pile up, I'll stop now lol.

Have a great day (or night), stay hydrated, and remember to wear your seatbelt!

Thank you for the questions! I think I’ll make them their own post since this one is already quite long(if you’d like me to tag you in it let me know). I hope you also have a good day/night, stay hydrated & wear a seatbelt!

Im sorry to hear you’ve had to deal with so much backlash against your identity, you are always welcome here!

[boreal-sea]

Hi! Since you've done a lot of post abt how the patriarcy hurts and affects men too, and how being a men doesn't make you an inherent oppresor for a lot of reasons. I'd like to know what you could thing about this post? Mostly the last post and it's tags, but if you want to you can tackle the discourse abt Valerie Solanas and the SCUM manifesto!

https://www.tumblr.com/beatifiq/720946967341105152

First red flag is that I already have that blog blocked so I'm sure we're in for a doozy.

Let's get into this. Anything indented is quotes; they are from multiple different users, all of them self-identified radfems.

---

I have never read the SCUM Manifesto; I understand it's a very cathartic piece of work for some feminists but I have never found the idea of erradicating men from the face of the Earth to be cathartic or "utopian", it seems rather dystopian and eugenicist to me. I can see why radical feminists and terfs are fond of quoting it; I can see why any woman who has been traumatized by men would find it soul-healing.

It's not a piece of literature for me, and that's all I can really say about it.

I also do have to agree that dismissing it as a piece of literature beacause the author happens to have a mental illness is ableism.

Sure - being called a pussy etc doesn't make a man a woman. Being a woman makes someone a woman, and that includes trans women.

"Radical feminism doesn't make a distinction between different groups of male people…From a radical feminist perspective, trans women and amab nonbinaries are men."

- Yeah, that's what makes radfems horrible people.

"The reason why many radical feminists don’t want to be called TERFs is because it’s a misnomer. Radfem efforts include trans identified females."

- Puhlease. I cannot barf hard enough. Radfem efforts do not include me or support me in any way, shape or form. Radfems actively harm me every chance they get.

"Just my take here: the reason why we’re unpopular is because we resist female social conditioning to be accommodating and to placate others."

- You're unpopular because you're transphobes and a lot of you think a future without males is a "utopia" instead of a eugenicist hellscape.

"Trans identified males still benefit on the basis of their male biology. Hormones, clothing, and cosmetic procedures do not obfuscate this truth, it only speaks to salience and extent of that privilege."

- They don't actually, you're just fucking ignorant and don't listen when people who aren't you open their mouths.

So overall, it's run-of-the-mill transphobia and radical feminism. Nothing particularly groundbreaking here. A refusal to acknowledge intersectionalism, the lumping of all men and all "males" into a single category of "evil oppressor who doesn't deserve any compassion at all", and the lumping of all "females" into a category of "forever oppressed unless we murder all men tee hee".