#i don't really like the way filoni changed the lore

[byfulcrums]

Maybe they would have been able to save Anakin together, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have fallen if she had stayed

The Council 'betraying' her was definitely something that made him distrust it even more, yes. But if that hadn't happened, there's still literally everything else. His mother's death and Rako Hardeen, for example. Palpatine's influence is still there, regardless of Ahsoka staying or not

The thing about Anakin, is that he chose the path he went down. And he would have still chosen it with Ahsoka at the Temple. Anakin, as he is right now, would have tried to spare her, by bringing her to his side. But it wouldn't have worked, because she would've refused

Anakin killed everyone he grew up with. He tried to kill Obi-Wan too. He almost choked Padmé to death, and she was the one he was trying to save in the first place. The Dark Side clouds your vision, makes you do things you never would've done before. And that includes murdering your own family. If he truly needed to, and especially if Palpatine made him believe that Ahsoka ""betrayed"" him too, he would do another murder attempt

If Ahsoka stayed, it wouldn't have changed much, because Palpatine's influence is still there. She, like everyone else, wouldn't be able to see what he's been truly doing to Anakin, and therefore she couldn't have helped him. Palpatine is, like, really fucking smart. He would've found another way to make Anakin fall even if Ahsoka was with him. And, most importantly, he would have found a way to separate them so he could get to him

And a last thing: they broke pieces of his mask, not all of it. They didn't evenly cut through that helmet thingy, they just broke enough of it to be able to see his eye. They don't even see his mouth!

Ahsoka and Obi-Wan would have been able to make Anakin be seen. But it was only Luke, who actually removed it from his head without even breaking it, who could bring him back to the light

dunno who needs to hear this, but if ahsoka hadn't left she wouldn't have saved anakin, she would have just died

[spacelesbiandisaster]

Do you guys think Barriss knew about what happened with Rafa and Trace Martez?

Because I started to rewatch Clone Wars recently to pickup on lore for a fanfic I pretend to write I started to wonder if Barriss was aware of the Martez parents fate and ended up with a headcanon about that.

So, we a (almost) certain that was Luminara the one who changed the trajectory of a crashing ship who end up destroying the Martinez sisters home with their parents still inside. At least the description that Rafa give us mach her almost perfect:

I sure that is a lot of beautiful green skin Jedi with the order, even Barriss fits in that description if we really want to push it, but I think it's already common sense with the fandom that Rafa was talking about Luminara. And I couldn't agree more! Luminara being the one involved in this opens up so much room for potential new stories.

Could you imagine a Tales of the Jedi arc with Luminara fighting in the war and having to make difficult decisions such as that to protect a falling republic? How would she deal with her responsibility was a Jedi when the council is constantly sending away to battlefronts? That would be absolutely perfect! I almost with I could suggest to Filoni personally.

But the way Rafa describe the scene sounds like Luminara wasn't the only Jedi who came see her and Trace...

"Afterwords the Jedi came back and one of them came over to me. (...)"

One of them.

So who are the others?

I believe Barriss must been one of them. Remember this all happened in the beginning of the clones wars while the Jedi were capturing Ziro the Hutt (I believe it was in season 1 or 2). There's is no reason for Barriss don't be around at the time, especially given that she is Luminara's Padawan and they were on curruscant, not too far away from the Jedi temple.

She was with Luminara when that ship start to crash. Maybe she even was the one to made the call to set the ship on the apparently empty house to save the people she saw walking on the street and bc everything was happening so fast so Luminara agreed. And honestly, what other choice did they had? It's not like they knew the Martez parents was inside the house, Jedi don't have x-ray vision, and was their job to save as many life as they could. So the two of them did what they had to do, but later they learn about the orphans girls and pay they a visit. Luminara took the responsibility of talking to the orphans because she was the Jedi master (and probably bc Barriss would had been too shocked to stay put in she situation. She is a teenager girl after all) while Barriss stayed aside watching.

It could had been more Jedi with them, but I believe that is very unlikely given that they were fighting a war. The council couldn't realistic spare 5 Jedi to speak to every orphan the war left, but a Jedi Master and their Padawan seen fit for this quest.

At first I thought that was it: Luminara told the sisters the force would be with them and didn't do anything else about the situation, but analysing further what Rafa told Ahsoka changed my mind:

"(...) Trace and I were left, without a home. Just left there to find our way in their system."

Of course that Rafa could be referring to the republic was the Jedi system and they were left on the street, but being Luminara the Jedi involved I believe she left the girls on a orphanage of sorts and when Rafa become of age she find a place and won the right to bring Trace with her. So they had some kind of assistance after their parents death, but we all know that this kind of system had lots and lots of problems and high chance is they weren't take care properly. Not that Luminara or Barriss could had known such a thing, so they truly believed they were doing good to Rafa and Trace.

But why this is important?, you may ask. What difference does it make if Barriss was that or not?

Well, do you remember what happened to Ziro not long after that?

He broke way from prison!

Jabba paid Cade Bane (and I think Aurra Sing too) to go to curruscant's prison and take Ziro back to Nal Hutta to pay for the crimes he commit against Jabba's son. The show have two whole arcs about it and both together form one of my favorites stories on the clone wars.

But picture this: Barriss up to that point was very careful to not hurt anyone. On the second battle of geonossis she is talking about the importance of saving lives even when it means sacrificing herself going as far as asking Ahsoka to kill her just to prevent some weird mind controlling worms to spread to the galaxy. This same girl unintentional kill two person to same many on that ship crash and couldn't do anything to truly help the orphans that were left behind. All because of some Hutt crime lord the Jedi and the republic allowed to prospect in Coruscant (Ziro had a damn cantina on the lower levels! With bounty hunters and other criminals running around all the time and no one made anything about it until Jabba's son, another crime lord, order they to act). And like that wasn't enough, Cade Bane kill lots and a lot of people during his mission to "rescue" Ziro.

I can imagine Barriss looking at all that and wondering what was the point of sacrificing the Martez parents on the first place if everything just end up returning to the status quo. The choice Luminara and Barriss made didn't make anyone life better. People still died. The Martinez sisters were alone. And both the republic and the Jedi were conducting their actions base on what Jabba the Hutt wanted.

That could had been the moment she realized the number of wrong thing were happening because of the order and how far they had fallen from their old ways. Barriss was a solder when she should have been a pace keeper and there's nothing she could do that made the Jedi realize what they were doing to her, to all her Padawans friends and to the galaxy as a whole.

Well... Almost nothing...

My personal theory/headcanon is the Martinez sisters incident were the thing that let Barriss to her radicalization and to the Jedi temple bombing.

She probably decided to stay in Curruscant to try to help the people who live there even though she supposed to stay with Luminara and ended up meeting Letta and her husband Jackal (I think that's how it's spelled) and Letta start to talk about doing this great act to attract attention of the Jedi and of the people and was Barriss was spending all the alternatives she had to resolve the problem in a pacific way she started to agree.

I also think the bombing didn't work out the way Barriss intended to because the girl were a total mess on the Wrong Jedi arc.

Maybe Letta feed the nano droids to her husband a little to early, or they were never meant to be feed the him on the first place (Can you imagine Barriss Offe planning on using a civilian was a living bomb? The Barriss we knew from the second battle of geonossis would rather eat the droids herself!) either way Barriss definitely wasn't in her right mind. Other wise she could had save both Ahsoka and herself from prison very easily by blaming Ventress for all her crimes and this is how:

In the Wrong Jedi arc Barriss a holo transmission were she both learn that Ahsoka and Ventress were together and tell Ahsoka were the nano droids droids were.

Right after that Barriss proceed to stole Ventress lightsabers and go to the deposit Ahsoka is look for the bomb's disguise was Ventress so she can fight Ahsoka.

But why she does that?

If her intended was to further incriminate Ahsoka she could had just called the guards who would seem Ahsoka in a room full of nano droids and would go like "Yeah, she returns to the crime scene, there's is no way this kid is innocent".

And if her intended was to incriminate Ventress she should had put her in the room while unconscious. Then she could proceed to fight Ahsoka and stage a situation were Ahsoka finds Ventress there and when the guards eventually show up they would shoot at the separatist rather than command Tano.

So yeah, Barriss was spiraling over guilt so hard she couldn't think straight. And I couldn't think of any other reason in cannon that could had sparkle such reaction (I you know of something else I'm begging me to tell me!).

Barriss had to correct her mistake if the crashing ship incident, but the Jedi didn't listen to her, so she plan something big to gain the attention but her accomplice fuck somethings up and everything gotta way out of control so she ends up killing even more civilians and the rest we can imagine from there: She kills Letta because she was freak out about taking all the blame, end up feeling even more guilt (if this is even possible) and on a desperately attempt to save Ahsoka she tries to blame Ventress but fails spectacularly.

This is all speculation, but I'm choosing to believe that the Martinez parents death play some part on Barriss's Arc. It really is a tragic event that exposes all the cracks in the role the Jedi said they perform as well as the failing republic as a whole.

I would love to Barriss reaction to that on screen I totally think could be part of a hypothetical Luminara story on a future season of Tales of the Jedi.

But what do you think?

Like I said I planning to write a fanfic that has a great role for Barriss and would be super helpful to her others people opinions on the character, so feel free to reach me out to share your personal head cannons and theorys!

(Ps: I'm still learning english so please forgive me if that was a hard to read post)

(Also could you imagine how funny/tragic would be if both Ahsoka's ex-girlfriend and ex-mother in lawn were involved in the death of her current girlfriend, that being Trace, parents? That is good lesbian drama right there!)

[taco-pal]

AHSOKA REVIEW: I'm sorry but Dave Filoni has got to go lol. Ahsoka show is so mediocre in execution. His dialogue and style of directing just do not translate to live action well at all. The dialogue is so stilted and full of pauses, enough that it feels like actors are in entirely different spaces when reciting lines. All of it feels so expository and flat. Characters do not act like real people, they act as plot and lore delivery machines.

Rosario Dawson and Mary Elizabeth Winstead are not a bad actors. And yet here...Ahsoka is played so stoic, so emotionless, that it has to come down to the directing and writing telling her to do so. None of the charisma Ashley Eckstein and the animators of TCW and Rebels is here whatsoever. Winstead's Hera Syndulla is also played very flat. Can we also talk about how the blue eye contacts for both make the characters look absolutely lifeless and cheap? You can also just tell Natasha Liu Bordizzo is being instructed to act a certain way and wants to do more with the character but cant. It's so frustrating!

There is some stuff to like here: the stuff going on with Skoll and Hati at least seems mildly interesting, but it's also doing the Dave Filoni thing of changing the entire lore structure of a pretty well known universe by introducing more and more fantasy elements and glup shittos from the EU. It is just not dramatically interesting, sorry. Marrok at least looks cool as fuck by emulating Rinzler from Tron lol.

And this just brings us to the problem with modern Star Wars; It is all becoming so interconnected to the animated tv shows that they assume you'll have seen them already and understand who so and so blorbo's and glup shittos are and why they're here. But new SW creators are also in the trap of having an entire generation of younger fans created because of those shows now watching and wanting to feel validated. How do creators please both camps? How do you make people suspend disbelief enough to think that Thrawn really was part of the Empire that Lucas established in the OT? It just feels like Lucasfilm and Filoni steered the ship into the trap of fan service and ridiculous lore by mistakenly believing it could make up for the flaws of the prequels and any inconsistencies they might have later on and it is just sinking the entire ship.

Casual fans just do not care about this stuff and it's causing the entire SW machine to fail. It is also what made The Mandalorian drop hard in quality and also Book of Boba Fett.

The animated shows have never had any REAL parity with the main saga and it is a huge mistake to make it the backbone and catalyst of all the new content. I'm sorry, but most people don't want to watch 100+ hours of an animated show to understand what's going on in the series their grandma also wants to watch and easily understand. Only Disney Adult 30+ year olds and younger millennials that grew up on The Clone Wars could possibly find this pleasing.

(The way I had to hold off on talking about Andor's brilliance in comparison here...consider yourself lucky. ANDOR STANS RISE UP!!!!!)

[laz-laz-ace-pilot]

All this “everyone has the Force” stuff reminds me of when people wanted Rey to have a low midi-chlorian count. The idea was that midi-chlorians were not the sole indicator of Force-sensitivity, but that the Jedi used high m-count as a criteria for recruitment because it was quantifiable and measurable

I'm not a purist when it comes to force-sensitivity and I see what you mean, but it feels less like a change for the better of the narrative, and more like wish fulfilment on Filoni's part.

There's always been dodgy lore when it comes to force-sensitivity; I've never been a fan of Lucas' comment that Vader lost some of his sensitivity after losing limbs and the whole 'he's more machine than man' thing. Same with the idea that the clones couldn't be force-sensitive because Jango wasn't. Midi-chlorians have never been popular, and a quantifiable measure of the Force seems opposed to its flexable nature.

But this change not just messes with canon events, but also with the themes of other star wars stories. The High Republic - a personal favourite - is about the best years of the Jedi and Republic and this is characterised as a time of cooperation. Whether that's the Jedi working together, Jedi working with ordinary civilians to save lives, former conflicting states (Shili, Eriam, E'ronoh) working together - its about people doing what they can to help, force-sensitive or not. The implication that everyone can equally access the Force with enough training just undermines how people bring their different skills and experiences to help in the story.

These stories also explore other Force related groups and how these operate with or without Force-sensitivity. The Guardians of the Whills, Church of the Force, even the Path of the Open Hand have interesting philosophies that explore life without sensitivity and they deserve better than to be ignored.

And the Jedi have always been characterised as a closed group that have faced persecution (like many real life groups). The implication that them not being open to everyone is the reason they failed (?) sits wrong with me on so many levels.

And maybe the show will address this - we're only three episodes in at time of writing. Maybe it will explore the idea that Ahsoka is wrong to believe this and its part of her own trauma and skewed memory of the Order and that actually being trained by Mr Anakin Attachment-and-Resentment Skywalker was the problem, not the Order itself.

But I don't have faith that will happen. Filoni's past comments about the Jedi, his general misunderstanding of how they worked and how their philosophies worked, and his own attachment to his favourite character don't give me much hope (not to mention his racist and antisemitic history). The show has yet to brush on any actual Jedi teachings, but has demonstrated that yeah, Ahsoka is no Jedi, but that might not be the good thing it seems to think it is.

Sorry, I hope that kinda answers your ask, I got a bit carried away. I don't want to hate on the show, and I hope fans get something from it, but Filoni's approach really rubs me the wrong way!

[drelmurn]

If you're coming from TCW/Rebels/Mando to SWTOR and expecting similar lore, the Mandalorian lore they're using in the game is actually a little different. SWTOR predates the Disney canon reset, so it operates on the old EU/Legends lore that Filoni built on for the TV side of things a while after the game started. And while it added a lot to the history, it's never really 'updated' itself to the current canon version of Mandalorian culture, just taken bits and pieces here and there starting from 7.0 onwards' storyline, and that's a ways out from where you are in the game.

But to answer some of your other questions: them calling the Mand'alor Mandalore is more or less the Basic version of the title, and it's what they add an honorific to. The Mandalore from the Bounty Hunter storyline is Mandalore the Vindicated. If you're heading to Taris you're about to learn a smidge more backstory for him and the game's Mando lore in general, but you get adopted into Mandalore's clan, Clan Lok. I don't know why they never really specified it until... I think the Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion? in passing dialogue with the Mand'alor? It's weird. Anyway. The house system (and the Protectors) is something Filoni created for Rebels a good 6/7 years after SWTOR's base game launched, so they don't use the house system or the Protectors, it's just the clans.

There's absolutely no reason not to headcanon an amalgamation of the Legends/canon lore as you play if you want, though, that's what I do! I didn't mean to infodump and sorry if this came off as condescending or anything, truly just wanted to help!

Haha I figured it was something like that. I saw something that said they don't really change voiced lines in the game. I was going to add something about just how much the fandom had changed in the perception of Mando'ade. A lot of the fanfic writers I follow got pretty into Mandalorian stuff in the Prequel trilogy era (even ones I followed from different fandoms haha), so I'm pretty used to that.

I've gone through the smuggler's storyline up to finishing knights of the fallen empire, so I'd met Torian Cadera. When I saw him while I did the right of passage to get introduced to the black list people, I was sure he was going to be my companion.

Even without that though, it feels janky? Like, me accepting becoming Mandalorians and then not being told anything about the culture or maybe getting like an intro book made it feel very gang like.

On them calling the Mand'alor Mandalore, I get that it's the basic version, but the way they use it is what feels weird. Like for one thing, they sprinkle in a bunch of other Mando'a (another trip pronunciation wise - I wonder if they hadn't settled that yet), so having them use the Basic word feels weird. But it's fine, we're talking in Basic and it doesn't really matter. What I felt was weirder was the fact that they use like a name. You don't go around calling kings "King", it's "King Such-and-such". You can use a style without the name - like "your majesty" or "your highness" - but just the title itself not really? Like, they don't even regularly call him "Mandalore the Vindicated", it's always just Mandalore. Which is weird.

[darlin-djarin]

Sorry if this ask is a little unclear, I've been batting thoughts around my head like a cat with a string for the past 20 minutes and they're starting to get tangled

Even if we lived in a reality were people didn't see themselves in fictional characters, and where said characters didn't mirror real life, what favreau and filoni have done with mando season 3 is still disrespectful towards other writers of mandalorians

They've taken Mandalorian lore established over decades of comics and novels and other media, said I Don't Like It, and thrown it out as if they're writing a fanfiction that a few hundred people will read instead of an incredibly popular show that influences other star wars stories

Every time I think about the blatantly gendered visors or the absolute refusal to try to use and mando'a at all or the darksaber getting destroyed as if it's not a thousand year old artifact that survived way worse than being grabbed a little too tight I cringe

I get that most of the comics aren't canon, and that some of the lore mentioned above was established by filoni himself, but, like, it still feel bad, y'know?

I just have so many thoughts regarding this season and almost none of them are positive

The only good thing I have to say end up being superficial like This Set Was Pretty and This Fight Scene Was Kinda Cool

People have already touched on the way fiction effects reality better than I ever could, so I'm not going to make this already long and scattered ask even longer by talking about it, but it is something that cannot be understated. People have always and will always see themselves in fictional characters, and there's nothing anyone can do to change that

The threads are starting to turn into an unravelable knot so I'm going to stop typing before this ask turns into even more of a mess

you’re absolutely right and you should say it. fiction can and should be compared to reality, especially when compared to something like culture or religion. what favroni did, removing key aspects of mandalorian culture, just to try to sell us a half baked shit ass story and plot line was truly a horrendous thing to do. literally everything they did contradicted so much of what was already established and what fans already were comfortable with and knew. and you’re completely right, that bit with the darksaber? i had a hard time believing something as sacred as that could be destroyed in literally less than half a second.

when you see all of that, the mandalorian culture favroni removed or disrespected, and then bring it back and compare it to culture that mandalorians were based off of… it doesn’t look good. i’ve seen a lot of people stand up for racism against the bad batch and the whitewashing and everything like that, but i barely see people speaking up about the disrespect of cultures and religions, especially in the mandalorian fandom. it’s frustrating. it really is.

you bring up a lot of good points so thank you for sending this ask, truly.

[dlrconlicense]

So some thoughts on The Mandalorian S03 now that it's all said and done.

Spoilers ahead

I totally understand the criticism of this season by some, it did seem like Din Djarin and Grogu were a bit sidelined this season. But were they though? They were absolutely a part of how this season's arc progressed, that arc being Bo-Katan's redemption and the retaking of Mandalore.

In a way, this series was made because of Jon Favreau's love (and obsession with) of his character on Clone Wars and his background. He got to explore and flesh out the lore of basically "his" people along with the guidance of Dave Filoni.

Of course, he was was going tell a story about Mandalorians. Din Djarin is our gateway into the Mandalorian culture, sub-culture etc. Din Djarin and Grogu actually changed Bo-Katan's view on the world, her people, and leadership. At the beginning of this season, we saw a dejected Bo-Katan. She has lost her way. Din and Grogu helped her back on her path. Their relationship evolves in a good way. Grogu now has another parental unit and Din Djarin gained another powerful ally and confidant.

(side note: I wouldn't mind if they had gotten together, but am totally fine with them not. I did get co-parenting vibes throughout the season though)

I also do feel like the live actions projects finally allowed Dave Filoni to tie up some ends that were left in the animated series. He definitely want to give the Mandalorians a fitting resolution. While she was definitely front and center of this season, and I do feel like scheduling and Clickers is part of the reason, Din Djarin and Grogu were instrumental in completing her arc.

They did have some character development, Din's pledge and the growth in his diplomacy, Grogu using the Force not for offense but defensively, it's subtle but it's there.

I think the only episode that I thought was a bit jarring was "The Convert." I didn't particularly like the episode but I don't think it wasn't important. This does plant the seed as perhaps the explanation of the start of "The First Order", but then again Dave Filoni was always tasked with things like this. Clone Wars was created to make the Prequels make more sense and more compelling. It was like watching the more serious, political episodes of Clone Wars, whereas the divisive "Guns for Hire" was more a planet-of-the-week episode of Clone Wars.

Speaking on "Guns for Hire", if you really ignore the whole cameo stuff, it's really fun to see a in-universe Star Wars police procedural. That and "The Mines of Mandalore" end up being the two episodes I really liked this season.

I was particularly surprised how neatly they wrapped up the story. In a way, it was a rather smart ending. You can leave them as is, but judging from the conversation with Carson Teva, it allows for a soft reset of the series. Jon and Dave can resume the task of the week format of the show in later seasons, while linking to the bigger scope of the Mandoverse and Mandalore. We can always check in on Mommy Bo. No, I do not think Gideon is dead. If Maul lost half his body and lived, Gideon is alive getting a bit flame-broiled. But seriously, they couldn't allow 30 puppet seconds for a "See you later, Mom!" scene with the boy?

I was a bit disappointed we didn't get unmasked Din Djarin this season. It's understandable given Pedro was in Canada with his other adopted child for a good chunk of production. But it narratively it also made sense. He literally just fell and almost drowned bathed in the Living Waters, no way he is going to remove his helmet any time soon. By the way, does anyone else play "Which is the Mando?" when they watch? I am definitely convinced it was Pedro in some of "Guns for Hire" and "The Spies". The way the helmet moves and where it sits is quite telling.

[vanillahub]

✘ Any unpopular opinions about your muse?

♧ Any part of their canon portrayal you dislike?

☯ Is your muse liked or disliked by fandom? Does this affect your portrayal?

For Rex

@corruptedforce

the mun's interpretation [Accepting]

✘ Any unpopular opinions about your muse?

// I fear that Rex will get the Ahsoka treatment, bc he is Filoni's 2nd OC.

The Ahsoka treatment: You'll LOATHE this character, bc he'll be shoved into everything even though it makes no sense for him to be there. And the more he shows up, the more Filoni breaks his own bible. He will also get the God treatment, so every other clone that came before him? They're all pussies for dying AND shooting their jedi generals, Rex is now the giga chad clone. No matter the fact, they had to straight up change the lore, so the clones' decision making abilities were taken away from them in TCW.

The fandom's treatment of Rex also doesn't help this situation. I get he is the "protagonist" clone, but I hate that we lost SO many other great clones from Legends, just so this lil is treated as if he were the deity of clones.

♧ Any part of their canon portrayal you dislike?

// Sick and tired of Disney's censorship of Star Wars LOL, just so they can make baby shows that won't upset kids and baby adults alikes.

Mfers wiped out the fucked up lore behind clones, they really tried to "fix it" and make them more "palatable" with the whole chip stuff, but they made it 10x worse. And this is coming from sb who LIKED the prospect of what the chips brought to the table, and its numerous possibilities. BUT NOOO its only purpose is to appease to a crowd of ppl, who can't even handle the idea of order 66 to begin with or even grasp the series' real tragedy to begin with (Me @ those ppl: why are u HERE).

☯ Is your muse liked or disliked by fandom? Does this affect your portrayal?

// Rex is definetely ADORED by the fandom! Which IMO I don't take any issues with it. The only problem that rises with playing a popular character is that... It will attract ppl, who expect you to play their Waifu, the way they want to.

Luckily I haven't had TOO many encounters like that, but the ones I had left me ://////. Let me play my muse tyvm.

[tragedy-at-its-peak]

I'm cleaning out my drafts and stumbled upon this. It's been a while since I've seen Tales of the Jedi but that's besides the point.

I really hate how Star Wars legends/other lore isn't being respected like at all. Legends is a very good base for mandolorian culture and I'm seething that they used none of it in the Clone Wars/Rebels because it's already there. You don't have to put more work in. But they literally changed it to the point where it's unrecognizable and not only that, but even after changing the lore, the creators themselves ( *ahem* Filoni and Favreau) aren't respecting the lore that THEY create which makes it very confusing

I used mandolorian culture as my example but there are others like how OP explained that there should be way to create without decanonizing something.

Some of this might not make sense , and I'm open to further discussion about it.

Just finished Tales of the Jedi

Status update: fucking pissed

[padawanlost]

Why do people seem to hate Dave Filoni all of a sudden? I mean I'll confess I don't really like the way some characters were changed in the The Clone Wars series, but Filoni and Lucas did do a LOT of things right in that series. Its actually really deep and explores some very important moral and social issues like the impact of war especially on young people. Is it because Filoni has been critical of the Jedi at times? Honestly, I don't see anything inflamatory in what he says, and I don't think he's just randomly pulling stuff out of the air. Some of what he says is supported in old canon materials. The Jedi aren't perfect, I fail to see why legitimate criticism is such a big deal.

Before anything else, this ask was sent before the bad batch premiered so I won’t get into *that* right now.

That being said, this fandom has had a very interesting love-hate relationship with Filoni, so allow me to provide some context before we get into the heart of the issue.

Before The Clone Wars (2008) premiered the anti-prequel movement was still strong. A lot of people still accused George Lucas for ‘ruining’ star wars forever, so when the show premiered filled with action scenes, jedi, sith, badass moments and humor, Filoni was hailed as the savior of the franchise. Finally someone who understood what star wars was *really* about had come and saved us all from the prequels boring issues.

 That mentality last for quite some time. sure, there were voices of dissent but the general vibe was that Filoni had truly fixed star wars and the prequels. It was very similar from what happened to Game of Thrones. When the show premiered HBO and D&D were hailed as these god-like superwriters who could do no wrong. As the show progressed fans started noticing the cracks but most people still believed the show and its creators above criticism. only now that some time has passed that people are becoming more objective about the content and realizing the signs that something was off were always there. Of course, Filoni didn’t have a fiasco similar to Got’s Season 7 and 8 but the long waiting period between TCW’s season 6 and 7 gave people a lot of time to think objectively about the show, which made them realizing Filoni was, after all, just a man. And TCW was not an ‘alternative’ to the prequels, it was just an extension of it.

The themes people hated in the prequels were deeply imbued into the clone wars because a show about war must be, by definition, a show about politics. Whether people are ready to admit it or not, star wars was always about politics. I mean, the OT was about reestablishing a democratic government. It doesn’t get more political than that lol

And we can speak of PT-politics without talking of the Jedi Order. And here lies the core of the issue: people’s sudden realization of this truth. Somehow, for a very long time, some fans didn’t realize the clone wars  (and sw in general) was all about poltical (anti-war) allegories.  

Here’s a Filoni interview from 2013 that discusses the fandom reaction to the jedi:

StarWars.com: I was at the Lucasfilm fan screening of the finale, and I was keeping an ear on the crowd’s reaction to certain scenes. I was kind of surprised at the reaction when Ahsoka doesn’t take her Padawan braid back. Dave Filoni: Right. StarWars.com: Because people gasped at first, and then a lot of people started cheering. Dave Filoni: Yeah! Fantastic, huh? StarWars.com: What did you make of that? Dave Filoni: I was really, really surprised by that. Really surprised. I didn’t think people would be against it. But I certainly didn’t think that people would applaud it, necessarily. I think that there’s a certain element there… I mean, we weren’t trying to paint the Jedi in a bad light, but certainly you understand her reasons for wanting to leave. We’ve kind of taken a generation of Star Wars fans and really made them reassess that whole time period to the point where at the end of it, they’re on the side of this young girl who’s like, “Yeah, this isn’t gonna work for me.” And I think people feel that right now. They are often in a situation that they’d rather not be in and they wish they could just walk away, and maybe she embodies that. Maybe there’s something going on there that we’re not aware of. But I don’t know, I was pretty fascinated by that. It was a pretty surprising reaction. George and I went over those final scenes quite a bit. One of the big things was, the whole scene with the Council at the end used to take place outside where Anakin and Ahsoka talk. And it was definitely George, when we watched the first cut of it, who said, “I want to split this so that it’s half-inside, half-outside. And the outside is just Anakin and Ahsoka.” It was very important to him to separate the two of them out and just have this conversation between them. He wanted kids to know that she didn’t blame Anakin for it and that she wasn’t upset with Anakin. And I thought it was a great call. When I re-shot the scene it was pretty phenomenal. There was a debate about Ahsoka at the end, and her just going back to the Jedi at the end of it, and that was the initial impulse. But I kind of argued, “Well, wait. We have an opportunity here with her out to change her story dramatically.” And I’m always looking for those opportunities, because you’re not sure when they’re gonna come, to just grab something and change it dramatically for her. I thought, to do that whole storyline and then have her come back would almost be expected, so why not challenge that.[x]

Unlike what the narrative sold on tumblr says, Filoni and George talked about what was going on in the show (he was reason for Maul and Mandalore, two fan favorites, being on the show). But because accepting Filoni knew what he was doing means accepting George also knew what he was doing when drawing political and social parallels between real life and star wars, it’s much easier to just hate on Filoni and/or George (depending on what they are saying).

It’s kind of like selective hate. When Anakin is being abusive or when Padmé is being assaulted Filoni is a fucking mastermind. But when he’s criticizing the Jedi Order he’s a dumbass who doesn’t know shit about star wars. Or at least don’t know as much as people who have never talked to George Lucas, talked to anyone linked to star wars or has explored the full contents of the star wars lore know.

Look, I’m not defending Filoni here. He’s made plenty of decisions I don’t agree with it, but I find quite surprising how people can’t be rational about it. or, at the very least, be critical of the things that truly matter and have an affect on people in real life like racism, sexism and abuse. Idk, I just find interesting how the fans hating on him for being slightly ‘critical’ of the jedi Order seem to have no problem with the racism, whitewashing and sexism in the show. It really shows what people’s priorities are.

[igotswag77]

Courtly Love In Thrawnbine - My Review

This Tumblr inspired me to try again on the concept of COURTLY LOVE -- thanks for the nice art.

This is long... No tl;dr. I have been writing my THRAWNBINE fanfiction since 2014-2015. The initial transcripts were lost because my computer and the external hard drive crashed. Therefore, the research, development, key ideas, metas, etc. are gone. I have to start from scratch, hope some of them are in the cloud, and rely on my memory, which is another discussion. This piece here is not about the validity of the THRAWNBINE ship. It is a discussion of story elements I wanted to include as I write this fanfiction. It is not about me forcing any fan to accept my proposal. As a Star Wars fan, I like creativity and this piece is an example of what I think about when I develop my creative writing for fanfiction. It is what I want to do with my life right now because I can do it now.

However, a while back in one of the SWAG77 blogs here, my group discusses the idea of COURTLY LOVE: As I understand it as a beginner creative writer, it is how the COURT of the kings, queens, princes, princess, (on down) and knights in the Middle Ages and Medieval times expressed their love to each other. (x)

From my interpretation on my reading, not just Wikipedia but others, when noble single men, who were knights, often fought "religious wars" returned home to the court and would appeal to royalty to marry a certain young woman. They planned to "woo" these women with sayings, phrases, poems, etc. as an expression of their commitment and love. The issue is, most young women at a certain age (late teens, early 20s in the 13th -15th centuries) were considered "old maids" (spinsters) and they were made to marry whoever their families could get who were often older men 10+ their senior. Once married couples could not divorce, because of Church, and if caught cheating on their husband, women could be thrown away or killed. Many marriages turned loveless. When the knights returned home, they discovered the love of their lives was married, and therefore, they could not marry her because it was against the Church. Of course, back then, there were not a lot of sexual infidelities, because women could be killed for that, and any resulting child was forced into servitude, enslaved, or killed.

What couples did that time to express their love, devoid of sex to relieve that tension, the nobles created "courtly love" where the knight would serve his lady in any command and he would in turn be chivalrous along with his poems and sayings of love.

"The Lady and the Unicorn" (x), (x) tapestry art from finished in 1500 in France, is an allegory for "courtly love" by its subjects in the art, and symbols. The art comprises six tapestries that depict individual senses in each of them:

In the sixth tapestry, the words display, "À mon seul dési," while obscure in meaning it says roughly:

"To my only sole desire" "According to my desire alone" "By my will alone" "Love desires only beauty of soul" "To calm passion"

In my literature review to build the THRAWNBINE ship, I weaved the idea of "courtly love" as a plot element, in case my story hypotheses were inaccurate. That no matter what, Grand Admiral Thrawn knew he would have to serve under Countess Sabine Wren due to her royal status. By the time Thrawn meets Sabine face to face, she might be royalty with the rank of a countess, or she might be a rank higher than one because she has a direct right to Darksaber, as explained.

Sabine Wren might be a Marquise because she has an exemplary war record. I believe that Sabine Wren is the rightful heir to the Darksaber over Din Djarin because when Djarin defeated Moff Gideon, the Moff is NOT Mandalorian. All Djarin did is confiscate the Darksaber FROM Moff Gideon to give to the rightful heir. Lady Bo-Katan Kryze is not the rightful heir. She was given the Darksaber because Sabine believed in her. But the Darksaber is magical, like the Excalibur sword, and this saber did not choose Bo-Katan, and Bo-Katan never won it by ritual combat. The last Mandalorian who fought against another Mandalorian in ritual combat was Sabine Wren. Why Sabine gave it to Bo-Katan? Maybe the Sabine Wren character is like Nimue, the Lady of the Lake who gives worthy people the Excalibur, and in this case, it would be Sabine. But the Darksaber is ENTRUSTED to one that is worthy to wield it and NEVER lose it to scurrilous powers or persons. If Filoni et al. is using parts of the Arthurian Tales to explain why Sabine gave the Darksaber to Bo-Katan, then it was Bo-Katan's job not to lose the Darksaber. But she did and somehow, Moff Gideon "acquired" it -- he is definitely unworthy of it.

Maul, while he fought in ritual combat to obtain the Darksaber and killed for it, CHEATED during the fight with Pre Vizsla. Ritual Combat is a test of pure fighting skill, will, and strength. In the book, "Darth Maul: The Shadow Conspiracy", Maul has the fighting skill, a will, and the strength to fight Pre Vizsla, but there is the Force, and Maul used it to defeat Vizsla with his Force abilities in precognition. Maul knew all the moves that Vizsla would take before he made them. In my opinion, that is cheating.

While the Darksaber will work in a non-Mandalorian's hands who can wield a saber, the crystal used for plasma that Tarre Vizsla built, is responsive to the worthiness, nobleness, and chivalry of the wielder. Most stories written about enchanted swords say they do not work optimally in the wrong hands. Did it fail Maul, probably not, because Maul was so Dark Sided that he could "bleed" a lightsaber crystal for his uses. But I can imagine that a Mandalorian who uses weapons for his religion, like Tarre Vizsla who has the Force, would build his lightsaber in a way that his crystal, while it can be bled by a Dark Side user, still holds its resilience hoping for a worthy, noble and chivalrous Mandalorian to bring together the people and raise an army.

Another caveat to this story I think is Sabine Wren wielded the Darksaber while she was possessed by the Nightsisters trying to relive as Maul wanted. She almost kills Ezra Bridger, but Bridger was strong enough to pull the ghosts out of Sabine (and Kanan) in the Star Wars Rebels Episode 11, "Vision and Voices". Anyone who understands possession by spirits knows that not ALL of the spirits leave the body. Moreover, one possessed by spirits is not always evil. It is an ancient practice by those who are a part of the Vodoun culture in Western Africa, the Caribbean, Louisiana, and Gullah -- my culture (which I have some practice in it). Part of Sabine's ability to wield the Darksaber and other lightsabers come from the memories of the spirits that entered her body on Dathomir and the touch of the Daughter, which I have repeatedly written about on the Sabine Wren site (x), (x), (x).

The point is since the spirits entered Sabine Wren and not all of them left her in that SWR episode, and she picked up the Darksaber once clear of the complete possession, the Darksaber, especially the power of the crystal and the "spirit of Tarre Vizsla" encased in it, wanted Sabine to become the Mandalorian to rally all other Mandalorians together as one.

In SWR Trials of the Darksaber episodes, after Sabine defeats the Imperial Mandalorian, Gar Saxon, only to be killed by Sabine's mother, Ursa Wren, it shows that the Darksaber is rightfully hers. Why Sabine gave it away? The writers of SWR do not add scenes or dialogue meaninglessly, every piece of scenery with lighting, etc. and dialogue is added into each episode carefully to tell the story that these creatives want you to see. Sabine felt she did not have enough political skill to command Mandalorians, or better yet, military leadership to command Mandalorian -- for "you don’t tell Mandalorians what to do. You suggest it and they either heed your advice or not. (forgotten reference)"

Thrawn had to have learned that Gar Saxon died well before Season 4 Episode, "Heroes of Mandalore" part 2. Also, Thrawn knew a lot about Mandalorian culture through its history, philosophy, and art. What he did not count on is that he would find an artist -- Sabine Wren. I don't know when Thrawn discovered Sabine was an artist that painted the graffiti on the retaining wall. Through his studies, he deduced it was her by the armor she wears, the changes in her armor, and how important the armor is to the Mandalorian culture. This is why he was able to figure out that Sabine built the weapon. Her method of creating art reflects on how she builds weapons whether she knows this fact or not. But then, the Darksaber, which he has not seen, and would not really know its lore because it seems that story that Fenn Rau told Kanan is an "oral tradition" than a written one, and the fact that it was "liberated" from the Jedi seems like an embellished story -- liberated? More like "stolen" maybe? Thrawn had not heard that story. But Sabine knows it. I am not sure if Thrawn knew that Sabine is the rightful owner of the Darksaber. But during the battle sequences, he must have gotten glimpses of it and piecemealed what exactly it is as his job as a strategist to know what he is going up against. However, the Duchess Arc Reactor was not reconstructed to blast through Mandalorian Armor as the new leader of Mandalore, Tiber Saxon desired. It was a test and a chance for Thrawn to see the strength of the fight of Mandalorians (who fight each other all the time), and a chance to meet Sabine Wren in person. He had not met her. He met everyone except, her.

____________

I think that Sabine Wren would be a higher royalty if Filoni et al. were to write that Sabine is a rightful heir with a title. Therefore, she would be a Marquise who protects the frontier. In this fanfic, Thrawn would have to marry Sabine to obtain the title of Marquis to protect the border of the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong (lite = Grysks), and his military background fits in this fanfic story. Therefore, he will do whatever it takes to keep Sabine alive, protected under the symbol of the Darksaber and her people with his military (army). He would have to show "Courtly Love" with the addition of sex, to serve as her advisor, confidante, and supreme commander of her militaries. While he could keep his titles, they are not royal, but political, such as "Ranking Distant" or "Syndic" or "Patriarch" -- but that's the Chiss Ascendancy and he has been exiled from it (on paper: meaning officially he is exiled, unofficially he is in a black operation for an intelligence-gathering mission.)

As a separate story, he knows he really can't return under his current position back into the Chiss Ascendancy. But he can annihilate threats in the Unknown Regions using Galatic Empire resources -- of course, the Emperor nor Darth Vader like that idea. When the Deus Ex Machina scene occurred, wherever the space whales took Thrawn and Ezra, the end result should be, IMO, someone in the Chiss Ascendancy rescues them. And it can't be just two people, it has to be a group of them, mostly Imperials. And they take them to a planet, apparently under snow and ice in the Dave Filoni art.

Before I knew anything about SWR in my first fanfic, Thrawn met Sabine at an art auction.

After the Ezra Bridger Deus Ex Machina with space whales, it seems based on Dave Filoni's art of Sabine Wren and Ahsoka Tano, Thrawn officially meets Sabine. For many headcanons, metas, and short drabbles I can't get into atm, they kick off their relationship, and for Sabine, it is unexpected. And while Thrawn might strategically want Sabine to stay (to seal the deal), they have to have legacies. With legacies, Sabine would not want to leave unless she had to.

In this fanfic, any acts like these are about consent. I strive to write consent in my stories.

The conflict in this story becomes how the HAYLE did Sabine agree to all of this? She IS strong-willed like most Mandalorian women are. For Sabine to consent to this life path is:

Sabine DESIRES it; she WANTS to do a pair bond. She figures out that she is getting old and her biological clock is ticking, and perhaps she is tired of constant war and needs a break. But whoops, she did not think that her desire would overtake her and create many legacies. That does happen in real life. Therefore settles that now, this is her life. (This fanfic is the easiest one to write, but slightly dull).

From the LADY AND THE UNICORN held in Paris. Each tapestry depicts the physical senses: (1) Sight, (2) Hearing, (3) Taste, (4) Smell, (5) Touch, (6) Desire. There are allegories and symbols for each tapestry and element. The major symbols are a Lady, a young woman virgin, with a Unicorn, loyal to only her.

There is more information from this youtube: https://youtu.be/5hCWZNm3qpc. My issue about this video, while most of the information seems accurate, the poets are interpreting the tapestries with their modern experiences. In my opinion, it is difficult to understand these tapestries without historical context. To think the woman is in pain is a modern interpretation. Back then, people LIVED in real physical pain because there were no "doctors' like we have now; it is very judgy to make that assertion. Thus, the comments in the video are opinions, and the producers did not announce that opinions were going to be shared. It's kind of like the point of the tapestries was missed without the historical basis.

History for the THRAWNBINE ship is an important part of the fanfic. I am not a great writer, but I work hard to write it. I have reviewed the literature, not think up this ship out of my ass as some fans would assume. I have put a lot of work into it. Also, I am well-read on many Star Wars Legends books and the new Thrawn canon books. Therefore, it is not like I do not know much about Star Wars when I do. I have REAMS of information that I like to share with fans who ask me about it. A few fans do. Moreover, I am not so vain to think that my ideas are the ONLY point of view available. I like trying to write fanfics as close to the Star Wars canon because it is fun, and that is my thing. But there are other ideas out there. It would be wrong to say my way or the highway. Also, I am not young, and those who are asinine toward me, well, I know you're younger than me because I'm old, and I want to do this with my life, I like to do it, and I'm having fun. Some young people do not GET that idea until they fall flat HARD on their face with a lost future. But don't give up your bright-eyed and bushy-tailed aspirations -- you never know where life will take you, and you might be the one. Congrats. Believe me, life can get shitty when you're out there in the real world, like me. And when you can grab your chance at something you find fun, I say do it. Money isn't everything -- but it keeps the kids in touch. I bring up these issues because some young people take huge umbrage against the THRAWNBINE ship due to the perceived huge age difference. Okay, I can see why some young people are freaked out by that. Because someone taught them to be freaked out by the age difference. Moreover, I come from GenX, and most of us, aren't freaked out by that at all. Some of us are in that situation now. So it's no big deal to us. And any generation before ours -- THAT WAS THE WAY... I would not BE if not for huge age differences between my grandparents, great-grands, and great-great grands. Of course, for my greats- yeah, there wasn't much consent. But for my grandparents, at that time and age, there actually was consent. My grandmother was 18 years old when she married my grandfather at 26 years old. By 21, she had 3 babies. One is my father. So, I grew up not caring about age differences in relationships. But for some Millenials (not all) and GenZ (not all) and afterward (not all) -- IDK?

I guess the equivalence for some of the younger generation to understand why I am doing an age-difference story is that the younger generation demands older generation acceptance of relationships that were not allowed to exist in public because one could be killed. It was not until 1967 that people of different races could marry legally in all states. Shid, one couldn't divorce over irreconcilable differences (at will) until the 1970s. Women could not have their own bank accounts until the late 1970s, and LGBTQIA+ RECENTLY were allowed to marry legally in all states, although assholes are stopping them. Then... some of the younger generations are from IVF-assisted pregnancy situations. Some are surrogates. SHID.......... That was not allowed until the 1980s... Both 1970s and 1980s were when I grew up, when I hear younger generations wracking my brain over CONSENSUAL LEGAL age-difference, I think folks don't know the history and therefore are doomed to repeat it. It is NOT a suggestion to return back to that time where women had no choice. My fanfic is about a man falling in love from afar with a woman who actually has no clue, and he knows he is a lot older than her. Somehow, he has to tell her, and he is afraid because of rejection. Look, some Star Wars fans come from parents who have an age difference between 10+ years. If they grew up fine, and their parents are okay with their relationship, who would we judge? I am not talking about a child with a much older adult; that's not legal. I am not talking about nonconsensual (the age of consent in some states is 16-17 years old). I'm not talking about child marriage. My fanfic is about two adults making a choice to be together in an adult relationship. To say someone older can take advantage of someone younger due to experiences, well, that is a false analogy, and the opposite can be true, too. It isn't the age difference that causes bad relationships. It is the power and control, and all generations have individuals who use power and control manipulation to force and abuse another person.

Matthew Perry on that super expensive dating site was matched up with a young woman profile and wanted someone to talk to and have fun with. Not do unsavory things as the woman painted that picture. She lied about it too.

Matthew Gaetz is an asshole, and he deserves everything that the law can throw at him. I actually do not think he knew better. And as far as the young women, including the underage young lady, he manipulated them because he leveraged his power and control. This isn't because of age differences; it's about power and control by manipulation. "Oh, wow, I'm a big shot congressman; worship me." Bith, puh-leeze. You ain't shit. Look, fans teased me when I first discussed "Courtly Love," and I abandoned the idea because I could not justify it. Which is my choice; I made that choice, I chose to do it. But, some in the younger generation and nascent Star Wars fans must understand that you have no right to say who can fall in love with whom just because there a legal and consensual age difference. It is not fair. You cannot ask the older generations to accept your relationships and choose to have them if you can't accept, assuming that they are legal with consent. Because a long time ago, they were not... And when you have a longtime Star Wars fan who is older that is okay with your desires for legal and consensual relationships, killing us is not going to get these hateful toxic fans off your backs. You need longtime fans to be in your corner fighting for your cause because a lot of us have seriously fought for real shit, too. Not just protesting, but having rocks and police beatdowns and water canons, too. Blame by authorities for throwing in prison all the time. Shid...you should have seen us Spelman women rip a new asshole to fight Apartheid in South Africa against Amnesty International. We fought hard for that.

But you need to be cool with our stuff too. Just ask me. I'll tell you.

[elegant-civilized-rebel]

I'm a little concerned too since Mando hijacking TBoBF hurt that show immensely.

But to be fair:

1. Luke shouldn't have much of a relationship with Obi-Wan anyway. It's well established Luke mostly just knew Kenobi by reputation and that the two hadn't had many direct interactions until ANH. If anything I'd be more upset if they ignored the lore and had Obi-Wan and 10 year old Luke going on a "Lone Wolf and Cub" like adventure. If it did that it would really look like it was ripping off Mando.

2. We don't know exactly HOW big they're gonna go yet. I think it's worth waiting to see how the show handles its scale before judging it. Personally, I wouldn't mind a bigger story revolving around Obi-Wan as long as it doesn't make any particularly large retcons.

3. Maul has no business in this story at all, since he didn't even know Kenobi was alive at this point. Including him would've ruined his whole arc from Rebels, particularly his and Obi-Wan's final confrontation.

4. Not to absolve Filoni of any criticism, or to say anyone in particular is being too harsh on him, but the way that I've seen how the fandom as a whole has changed the way it's talked about him lately seems weirdly reminiscent of how people used to talk about George Lucas. I would've hoped we'd learned the lesson not to put someone on a pedestal as "the man who created the Star Wars of my childhood" and then turn around and say "he's the one ruining Star Wars" as soon as he starts making a few creatively questionable decisions.

1) am I salty about the Mandaborean pre-emptively hijacking Obi-Wan's relationship with Luke? INCREDIBLY

2) >"go bigger" on a story that explicitly stayed under the Empire's radar the whole time

3) Filoni made them rewrite to center around a Filoni character? I'm shocked, SHOCKED

I have no special love for Maul and wasn't interested in seeing his plot retreaded for the third or fourth time, but Filoni and Favreau sticking their fingers in make me inherently uneasy here.