#homestuck dubious canon

[humunanunga]

Making my own post cuz I don't want to attack them when I nitpick, but I saw a post comment that Vrissy blackrom-dating Tavvie and redrom-dating Harry is incest between cousins if you don't defend dismissing interspecies adoption as family. So let me just clear something up real fast. Before it was revealed she's not an only child, she wasn't either of their cousin.

Vrissy is Rose and Kanaya's. Tavvie is Jane and Jake's, and therefore John/June and Jade's baby brother. Harry is John/June and Roxy's, and is therefore Rose and Dave's baby half-brother.

At that point, Vrissy was dating her uncle and her great uncle.

But, like, this webcomic comes after the epilogues, so you'd have to have already read through the part where Tavvie was said to be conceived by assault, not to mention whatever the fuck is going on in Meat Route with Dirk and Rose and Terezi.

Which is why, and I cannot state this enough, we're well past that.

[tavtiers]

Can you analyze an Ult!Rogue of Heart? Because I'm playing with this idea of the Heart player inevitably reaching Ultimate Self for various reasons not yet planned. Also, said player is someone who can see the 4th wall or is at least aware of it and vague bits of scripts, and they're a pretty nice person actually.

Unfortunately I cannot! I choose to only use canon Homestuck content as a reference for my classpecting (as well as the literature it is based off of). In Homestuck itself, the idea of an Ultimate Self is only hinted at. Likewise, it is my opinion that is was meant to reference Plato's concept of the platonic ideal of a person. For my purposes, the concept of an Ultimate Self is much simpler than what is presented in dubious canon. An Ultimate Self is simply the overarching idea of a character. Joyfulldreams's forum post here expresses my feelings on the concept best. Quote: "It is something that by it's very nature as an abstraction you can't actually become."

I apologize and I wish you luck in your writing! If you would like, I would be happy to write an analysis for the Rogue of Heart in general or speculate on a realized Rogue of Heart.

[clockworkslick]

hey i just finished act 1 of burningdownthehou.se and holy shit you guys. please go read it. its homestuck continuation, but its so goddamn good. please go read it and make your life better.

[crappy-homestuck-confessions]

I wonder if they're going to touch the bonus stories, considering most of them were cliff hanger'd. "Why don't ask one of them?" 1. Wondering is more fun for me than just getting the answer. 2. They ain't getting any money from this; I'm not going to bother them about if they're going to do more work, that'd be a dick move. 3. If anyone does bring that question up due to this ask (or if Anu snitches again by showing these asks), I will malice you with a shoe horn.

.

[calware]

i want homestuck 2 to actually be in a state of dubious canonization because i think that concept has a lot of really interesting potential to explore what a story is and can be when released from the confines of a canon. but unfortunately the fans who are vocal about also wanting homestuck 2 to not be "fully canon" are only vocal about it because they're allergic to the concept of june egbert being a trans woman and are pissed that they have to do the bare minimum and acknowledge it as an important aspect of the official story. and i do not want to lump myself in with those people

[thewertsearch]

@burntowl25 asked: I just got done binging all your live blog, I LOVED IT. OH MY GODDDDDD sooooooooo fucking good, your analysis is soo interesting and I love it so much. I also really dig ya kidsona+trollsona. I really, Really think that you should at least read the Homestuck Epilogues, to me they feel like an unremovable part of Homestuck, and don't think that the experience is relly complete w/out it. It also continues expanding the Lore and mechanics of the story in a really interesting way that I think that you will enjoy htinking about. It works better as a thinking work than a strict story, which plays well into your liveblogging style. @herestoanotherweirdo asked: hey ive seen you confused before about the like… "canonicity" status of stuff like The Epilogues and Homestuck^2/Beyond Canon, with regards to whether or not you'll get to that after finishing homestuck itself, and i think the best way to understand all that is basically like. It's a sequel. It's doing Thematic things with the FACT that it is a sequel, but it is still a sequel. Terms like "post-canon" and "dubious authenticity" (both official terms used which are often merged by fans to as Dubious Canon which is not officially used) are, more than anything, used to provoke thought on the position of these works in the thematic framework of homestuck, which is interested in examining the nature of stories, how we tell them, what they Do, using the nature of stories as a metaphor for Various Other Things, getting into unique metanarrative modes, ETC. But like, they are still Official Sequels in all meaningful ways. You can ignore them and focus on some alternate canon or continuation you made up yourself or found online, but that's also true of literally any other work of art ever produced. Homestuck, and in particular its sequels, just acknowledge that fact more than most works of art do.

Thank you!

I've been thinking a lot about how to handle Homestuck's semi-official continuations - and, like... ok. Here's the thing.

I understand that the Epilogue, at least, wasn't written entirely by Hussie. That obviously doesn't have to mean it's non-canon, but I'm also aware that it's explicitly presented as a fanfiction, complete with an AO3 header. That, to me, is a pretty clear indication that it's meant to be an optional part of the Homestuck experience, and not an 'official' part of its narrative. The additional fact that its authenticity is presented as dubious only makes me more sure that this is the case.

As such, while I absolutely will be reading the Epilogue, I'll probably be using a slightly different liveblogging style. I'll talk more about my exact approach once we're nearing the end of the comic - but, in short, unless it makes a really good case for being canon, I'll probably be interpreting it as a fanfiction, albeit one with the author's official blessing.

And, like - maybe it does make a good case for being canon. That's something I'm totally open to - and if it's the case, I'll happily liveblog it as if it's part of Homestuck proper. We'll see when we get there!

(Oh - and since Homestuck 2 is apparently set after the events of the Epilogue, my decision to liveblog that will depend on what I think of the Epilogue itself.)

[nekropsii]

Wait, wdym Sollux is dubiously cannon transmasc?? I didn't notice it in the comic and now I'm curious. Where does it say it???/gen

You didn’t notice it in the comic because it was not in the comic. No big deal there.

For Clarification: “Dubiously Canon” means “Extra-Canonical* Official Material”, and is applied to anything that is not the original webcomic - so, Homestuck^2, The Epilogues, Comments + Commentaries, Hiveswap, Paradox Space, etc. It marks works as Non-Canonical as a baseline, but with the caveat that you can choose to accept it as true within your own mental image of the story as a concept. Basically, it isn’t real - and doesn’t have to be - unless you personally decide to add it to your headcanon, which then makes it real for you, specifically. This is the Official Definition of that term, and the Official Application of it. It is also why anyone that argues any Homestuck work aside from Homestuck proper is 100% Canon and everyone needs to accept it as such is being pretty silly - they are blatantly disregarding the labels these works have devised and applied to themselves specifically to separate themselves from the actual original comic.

Sollux being implied to be Transmasc was in some old Hussie posts, particularly a joke one sent to some internal Pesterquest Discord, where she says something to the effect of Eridan envying Sollux because his dad doesn’t deadname or misgender him. Dubious Canon, and also some deeply funny clowning, especially when you remember Eridan’s Lusus is a fucking Seahorse with zero concept of this shit. World’s First Transphobic Dog.

It wasn’t in the comic, but I like it, so it’s true to me.

He named himself fucking Solluxander. 10/10.

*The prefix “Extra-” means “Outside”, and is not a denotation of large quantities. I am saying that this is Outside of Canon, not Extremely Canon.

[pastacrylic]

there is nothing that says "homestuck fans have no reading comprehension" more than them constantly calling the epilogues/hs2 "dubiously canon" when the tagline was "tales of dubious AUTHENTICITY" which are two extremely different things

[voparwave69]

Your name is KAHANET AMNAK. You are the SELF INSERT TROLLSONA made up by the girl who created you to vaguely reflect their PERSONALITY, INTERESTS, EXPERIENCES, and APPEARANCE. You have the same horns as certain CANONICAL CHARACTERS because your creator likes the uniform appearance of the original HOMESTUCK cast's CASTES. But you don't really think about that. Instead, you see that you are a PURPLE BLOODED TROLL who likes to PARTY. You decorated your hive to remind you of GAMES, as you love playing with whoever will tolerate you. You have a soft spot for sugary beverages such as BIG K GRAPE SODA and COTTON CANDY FAYGO, along with FIREWORKS and a particular CARD GAME you discovered recently, where you make decks intended to ENRAGE your FRIENDS. Your PRANKS and desire to DESTROY THINGS are about as beloved as your ANNOYING CARD DECKS. You are very SOCIAL and try to MAKE NEW FRIENDS every day. Your success rate with this is dubious. Your hive is littered with SOPORIFICS that you think make you even better at PARTYING, DANCING and telling JOKES. Your MATESPRIT insists you should take yourself more seriously, but you can't seem to take much of anything seriously, other than HIM and the RELIGION you both ascribe to. Because you don't take yourself seriously, you took your SIGN off your clothes and painted another one of your stupid JOKES onto it instead. Because you take your RELIGION seriously, your skirt is decorated to remind you of the BELOVED CARNIVAL that is CELEBRATED by YOUR KIND in the SWAMPY part of the planet you live in, and especially by you. You cannot wait for the DARK CARNIVAL where you will eternally PRAY and ENTERTAIN the masses. You paint your face to remind you of the masks worn by certain attendants of the GREAT PARTY of the AFTERLIFE and also as an inside reference to your DUAL NATURE, as if anyone will ask. Your LUSUS is abnormally aggressive and so you are THANKFUL he is often gone, but his AGGRESSION threatens to affect your FUN LOVING personality. How boring, you think. You enjoy making MOLDY ART to post online for other trolls to LAUGH at and your hive is a bit infested with BLACK MOLD, but you allow it because the spores affect your think pan in a pleasing way.

> Give the black mold a taste

[ender--slime]

long post about the 10/8 update incoming!!!!!!!

ok i dont usually post my thoughts on updates bwcause im the number one adhd rambler of all time but here we go.. you get to read them today!!!!!!! SO. one of my big HSBC theories is that Ult Rose is actually the mastermind of sorts behind the whole story. not in an evil way, because dirk isnt even evil, just in the way that she knows a lot more than shes letting on!!! and that dirk and al might not be the only ones with real influence here. this theory was first thought up by my friend @classpectpokerap and its called the "Gloves are Canon" theory and you can read about it more in-depth here and here! as a fun challenge go back and read the epilogues and early hs2 (and also new updates) with the idea that rose knows more than we think. youll get some really fun stuff out of it and hopefully youll be convinced :p

SO ANYWAYS. how does this concern the 10/8 anniversary update?

HOO BOY

first of all, lets get a few content warnings and things outta the way. this lil analysis is gonna talk about some suicidal characters and suicidal ideation so plz !! be warned!!

first off, we know that Ult Dirk is really just afraid. hes not scary or intimidating at all, to the reader, because he killed himself in one timeline and hes really just trying to do it again. he even says this in the epilogues- that he hopes his death is Just when it comes, and he hopes its dave that does it. dirk feels as though he doesnt belong- hes always felt this way. he thinks the world and his friends would be better off without him, and his last gift to them is to create a new universe where they can start fresh outside of lord english's influence for good. he might be the most obnoxious narrator on earth c, claiming that he knows whats best and that hes doing right by everyone and by you, as the reader. but the TAGLINE of the epilogues are "tales of dubious authenticity". it tells you from the start that youre dealing with the worlds most unreliable narrator here. a guy who says one thing, says hes fine, puts on a mask to make himself seem stronger, but is always harboring the most pain. who also thinks this way?

rose fuckin lalonde!!!!! this isnt just beyond canon either. try and count how many times she did some suicide mission shit in og homestuck. and how non chalant she was about every single one. this character trait stuck around, and its especially clear in the 10/8 update.

and who does she reference, saying that he made the right choice to kill himself?

bam. this miserable motherfucker wants Out.

notice how she doesnt say "kill himself". she says LEAVE. as if she knows ult dirk is in the other timeline, alive and well. as if she knows that she could have done that too. made the right choice. the canon choice.

but what does that mean, in terms of Gloves are Canon? well, if you read the gloves are canon theory part 2, it states how at the beginning of candy, rose's ult self visions completely went away supposedly, but by the time HSBC picked up last year, theyre back...and worse?

how? its only been a few days, in universe.

was she lying about them being gone? is it the influence of having the Light, the Narrative, the Eyes of the Reader back on her now that the comic is going again? was she ulted the whole time just like dirk and we dont know it?

to the reader, the rosemary breakup in both timelines was a destruction of rose's character. but to rose.....its what she thinks kanaya deserves. rose thinks kanaya deserves a life without her. rose thinks shes BETTER OFF without her. and maybe deep down she thinks the whole timeline, and the whole universe, is better off without her too.

just like ult dirk.

i have a lot of thoughts on the other two parts of the update, but i wanted to focus on the concept of ult rose with this post because. god. idk her whole section was so potent and not only confirmed my theory, but just made me feel sick!! /pos

[chthonicarcher]

Hello!! I've been a fan of your art and writing for a while now, and I wanted you to know your works a big inspiration and comfort to me!! Anywho, thoughts on Davebot and Commander Vantas :]

first of all, wow, thank you so much!! that’s so kind <3

mkay so...

the thing is,

sigh. so. okay.

okay listen—

OKAY THE FIRST THING I GOTTA SAY, and I mean this ought to go *without* saying but I’m still just going to say it: this is all JUST MY OPINION!! it’s subjective, I’m not saying other people are wrong just bc we may happen to disagree about this!

TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, though, I only really engage with “beyond canon” or “dubious canon” or “post-canon” content in the way I’m doing right here, which is to say, drawing silly requests to dress up CKat as Hatsune Miku or whatever. or sometimes drawing something featuring meat or candy DaveKat specifically for my dear friend bug, who loves the epilogues and HS2, and still has a lot of hope for a happy DaveKat ending in *both* timelines. (love you bug, love your optimism, and I hope for your sake that HS2 doesn’t disappoint!)

because **MY** opinion of all that is that it sucks and shouldn’t exist, lol. sorry!! I hate its very existence! I ignore it and I mostly avoid it because it upsets me deeply, and I only engage (very shallowly) with the elements I can fully get behind, which usually means “cool outfits” or “cool designs.” Davebot looks real cool, man! that’s about all I can say about him without wanting to vomit!! his very existence makes me sad as fuck and I hate it, idk what else to tell you. I hate that even though that story goes out of its way to point out how non-canon it is, just by nature of being an officially sanctioned product it kinda IS canon, and the fans sure treat it that way, and I’m not even saying they’re wrong. if Hussie wanted the epilogues to actually be treated like fanfic maybe they shouldn’t’ve attached their name, man, idk.

anyway, I know drawing CKat and Davebot as just silly little guys without actually fully engaging with/reading post-canon sorta makes me part of “the problem,” like those “fans” of Homestuck who don’t understand it at all bc they HAVEN’T READ IT yet insist on making art about it that misunderstands the characters? but tbh I just don’t like or respect post-canon stuff in the same way I like and respect the original work. to me it is fanfic, and not even like a good one that I would bookmark or download a PDF of, lol. sorry if this disappoints you! I still think the designs are cool ✌️

[dingodad]

like im sure someone had used the phrase "dubiously canon" to describe something at some point pre-homestuck but if you actually look for the exact words "dubiously canon" or "dubious canon" on either the homestuck OR beyondcanon websites you will find that they never appeared. that was me. i said that. i'm sorry

[davekat-sucks]

i don’t like HSBC a lot because it kinda takes away from fan artists/writers,, they should have just let it be and let fan artists/writers come up with their own AUs instead of whatever is going on with HSBC..

Before Epilogues, mostly everyone was free to choose their own ending, But now, people think Epilogues and HS2/Beyond Canon are part of canon even when stated it is dubious canon. It says a lot when Undertale has similar multiverses, alternate timelines, and parallel universes, the fandom there is more open about its AUs compared to Homestuck. And most of the AUs in Undertale centers around fucking sans the skeleton.

[dorkhellbside]

HELLO!

this is desta-joy-d-etc-etc comin' in hot with another homestuck blog as referenced by the b side in the url. the main one would be @conceptofjoy.

general info and content warnings under the cut. 16≥ blog, and no stri-cest shippers please and thank you.

collaborative music yt playlist view link || invite link send an ask by if you just want to rec a song.

aggregate of dirkhal content; im using the ship name here, but i really just mean any weirdly intense interaction between the two. i love studying them with a magnifying glass. hashtag alter hal truther.

i fuck heavy with dirkjakehal. we might have to fight if i see a mf diss english with their whole chest.

huge fan of t-fem hal and t-masc dirk. you'll probably see me she/they hal a lot. i have a human design of hal i default to that exists in my imaginary post canon scenario. more deets on the other blog but there's not a whole lotta story, i'm afraid.

no 𝚜𝚝𝚛𝚒𝚍𝚎𝚛𝚌𝚎𝚜𝚝, any reblogs i make will be avoiding posts with those tags, and i'm a very liberal with blocking if you apply them to my own ^_^. we can hash out the ethics of hypothetical clone fucking, but like, really? is this what we want to be doing? don't like don't follow and i'll be doing the same.

CONTENT TAGGING! this is important. there will be heavy discussions and depictions of abysmal mental health and power imbalances and i will try to be top of that shit with the tags, but also tell me if you need something tagged even if its not "thaaat serious". subjects/ tags may include: physical abuse, verbal abuse, decapitation, gore, (those will be tagged separately), self harm, unreality and disassociation, freud and incest as it is discussed thematically in homestuck, suicide and suicidal ideation, intrusive thoughts, dubious consent, suggestive content, nudity, nsfw. the list's always gonna be a work in process, learnin' as i go here. also, cause of their general consent issues and the nature of their relationship, it's like... ok, what im saying is, not posting rape. totes reasonable to not trust a rando on the internet with what qualifies as ""dubious consent"", do what you need to do brah.

[kozzax]

Homestuck and Aromanticism: A Discussion

I think it's time we talk about the way Homestuck treats aromantic people, both explicitly and implicitly.

Though I personally have a lot of fun talking about my aromantic headcanons for Homestuck characters, there is very little support in the text for the vast majority of them. In fact, there is clear evidence that the narrative would object to such an interpretation of its characters. Homestuck is a story filled with queer characters, but there is a notable dearth of aromanticism within its text.

There are, arguably, two aromantic characters in the entirety of Homestuck. One of them is explicitly aromantic, the other is very heavily discussed in ways that reference the aromantic experience. I am talking, of course, about Calliope and Jake English respectively.

Neither of them serves as a good representation for aromanticism.

Calliope's aromanticism is confirmed in the epilogues. In Meat Chapter 6, we get this passage:

You weren’t prepared to get passively hit on by the Definitely Not Legal version of a girl you used to have a crush on at the age she was when you first met her, only a few hours after you watched the Actually Legal version of her engage in passionate hand-holding with her possibly aromantic skeleton alien monster girlfriend.

This is the only time the word 'aromantic' is said in the entirety of Homestuck, epilogues and dubious canon included. Rather than being discussed as an identity that Calliope associates herself with, it is included on a list of modifiers regarding her status as Roxy's girlfriend. A list that, otherwise, is made up of exclusively terms that emphasize her lack of humanity and otherness.

Given how Calliope's queerness is treated in the Epilogues, it is safe to assume that the term aromantic was used here in that same vein. They are aromantic, and thus are distanced from their humanity. It is worth noting that the terms are of an increasing level of otherness-- skeletons can be vaguely human, aliens can be sentient, monster implies a lack of personhood. Aromantic is the first part of this list. There is a quiet implication that aromantic people are a subsect of humans that aren't quite human.

Their aromanticism is never brought up again. It is never an obstacle in their relationship with Roxy, is never something the narrative addresses the nuances of or the difficulties of. Instead, it exists as exclusively a modifier on their position as a girlfriend. Their position within a romantic relationship, never discussed with nuance again.

It is a part of who they are exclusively to other them. It is not an inherent aspect of who they are, it is not an identity they consider important, it is not something brought up when their queerness is questioned by the narrative. It only exists to other them, and by extension to other aromantic people as a whole.

What about the other aromantic character, then?

What about Jake English?

Many things can be said about Jake English and aromanticism. He reads, to me as an aromantic person, as incredibly aromantic in nature. Every time his romantic troubles are brought up, I am more convinced of his aromanticism.

He was not intended to be aromantic initially. This, I am fairly certain of. I don't think Hussie knew aromanticism existed at the point Jake was being written.

That being said, there is one piece of evidence to suggest that it is possible Hussie knew the term and was referencing it with Jake:

JAKE: But yeah thats pretty much what the doctor ordered for old jake english. No romantic stuff. No platonic stuff either! JAKE: Ill be like... Mr nonrom sansplat... Or... Oh horsenoodles there has to be terminology that more effectively consolidates my present understanding of myself into a coherent identity i can get enthusiastic about.

This is also the first passage that many people associate with Jake being aromantic. Unfortunately, in context, it is not so simple. Within the context of this conversation, this is Jake putting himself down and abstaining from relationships with the people around him because he hates himself. It is not framed as a sudden bout of self-acceptance, but rather as a regression into his worst traits.

It is walked back moments later, when Tavrosprite suggests making new friends who won't be so difficult to get along with.

The idea that someone wouldn't be interested in romance is framed as nothing more than self-hatred and self-destructive action. Where other queer identities are respected by the text, aromanticism is ridiculed.

Jake's romantic difficulties are framed as the butt of the joke consistently, as is Jake himself. He is consistently sexualized and infantalized by the narrative that surrounds him. He is not allowed to speak for himself and be trusted on his speech.

Despite all of this, he reads as aromantic. He avoids discussing romantic topics, he is apathetic to whoever he gets in a relationship with, it feels like his relationship with Dirk is him trying to recreate that which he sees in his movies. The action hero he is determined to turn himself into always has a romantic partner.

Assuming he is aromantic, he is consistently placed next to his romantic partner and consistently made the butt of the joke. In the Epilogues, he ends one having been mind controlled into loving a man romantically so much that he's having a mental breakdown and the other having been in a dead-end marriage for his entire life trying desperately to raise a son he didn't want.

Assuming he is not aromantic, the only aromantic character in Homestuck is Calliope. Aromanticism is framed as self destructive through Jake and dehumanizing through its only mention, and is only ever framed within the context of the aromantic character being in a romantic relationship.

In either case, it is clear that Homestuck is not a story that treats aromantic people kindly. It is not a story that believes we exist, nor is it a story that is willing to engage with us. Despite that, it is a story that uses us and our experiences to emphasize characters' lack of humanity and agency in their own lives.

There is more I could say on this topic, and I will do so eventually, but I do not have the time to consolidate it all at the moment. It just... frustrates me, that romance is so heavily featured in Homestuck and queerness is so often celebrated in Homestuck, and yet its only usage of aromanticism is consistently negative in nature.

I love this comic. I love this story, and these characters. And yes, I do love the epilogues and postcanon. But I am also aromantic. I love my aromantic identity. It would be a disservice to myself and to my fellow aromantic Homestuck fans not to bring this discussion to the table.

[thewertsearch]

Thank you! Homestuck is, of course, a multimedia comic, so I try and make sure to analyze all the formats in which it conveys information - including half-heard song lyrics.

I know a few people sent me the full lyrics of Let the Squiddles Sleep, but I'm still torn on whether to look at them. Some of those lyrics literally aren't in the comic, since the dream faded away before we heard them - so do they really 'count'?

I can feel the conceptual spectre of 'dubious canon' hovering over this liveblog...