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batsplat · 4 months ago

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"I must say that it is very difficult to have good relations when you fight for the same thing, as I fought with Sete. The trigger was what happened in Qatar in 2004. What happened in Qatar 2004.. I saw it as something dirty that I didn't expect neither from Sete, nor from Juan Martinez, who was his technical manager and who had worked with me for a long time. I felt betrayed because it was as if I was being played. Sete was a great rival and when you fight like that it's a bit like Michael Jordan says, it's something personal. With Sete what happened in Qatar made me very angry and it helped me to give my best until the end of that season and for the next one. If I had to give Sete some advice... it's better if he hadn't done it." here's the bit from route46.. i find it interesting he puts blame on juan martinez too!

(following on from this post, and will liberally include chunks I wrote in the sete post) right there's a lot to unpack here, but first of all. I haven't gotten around to watching the whole documentary yet, but I did quickly jump around to find the sete bit the quote is from and... and there is something I absolutely have to address first. because. uh. they actually interview juan martinez - sete's crew chief himself - about the whole qatar incident... and, well. he says the following (rough translation):

At no time did either Sete or I go ask for a sanction for Valentino: we went to ask for greater security for everyone. Once we go to HRC and passed on the knowledge, that we have found a Valentino technician on the track, thus modifying the state of the track, Honda decides that moment what really needs to be done is a complaint.

hold on. just one second. I did suspect there had to be something incredibly stupid at the heart of the whole thing. something that could reconcile all the contradictory information out there, help explain how everyone could feel so confident in their contradictory views. because the whole thing should have a relatively straightforward answer, right: either sete played tattletale or he didn't. and... I mean. okay, look. I'm not saying I'm with valentino on this one but... they did snitch! objectively martinez is admitting they snitched! it happened! either this was a moment of staggering naivety because what did you think hrc was going to do with this information?? or valentino was spot on and they passed on that information knowing that it was at least a possibility valentino was going to get a penalty as a result of their actions. surely it is possible to appeal to hrc on safety grounds without bringing up you saw valentino's technician on the track, who was at the time quite possibly acting quite suspiciously under the cover of night! why are you even going to hrc about this in the first place!

you do not have to be that paranoid a soul to maybe doubt whether they had the best of intentions here, no? what this would also help clear up is sete's response at sepang when asked to deny his involvement, which. I did find it an odd response! you kind of want to give the benefit of the doubt with these things, given sete's longstanding and genuine preoccupation with safety in the sport. that being said, rather than just firmly deny he was involved, he went on this long spiel about how he would've thought it'd be better for everyone to get their grid spots cleaned - and the crux of his argument amounted to how he'd be a hypocrite if he called for valentino to be sanctioned after that. which, why are you even focused so much on this - just say no, you weren't involved! look, it was better to err on the side of caution and maybe simply assume sete isn't the most skilled operator in denying allegations of gamesmanship. but this extra detail would make sete's response in that sepang presser read a little differently:

yeah, sure, I mean, if we're going to be generous here and say sete and his crew chief just innocently mentioned to hrc that valentino's technician was rubbering up his grid slot for 'safety reasons'... then nothing sete says here is technically a lie. he didn't "complain" and it was hrc who made the protest. but. but! it does feel like if sete and his crew chief really were the ones to alert hrc to what valentino's team had done... if what martinez says is actually correct, this whole incident does still read pretty differently! you know how sete says "they" had blocked him from cleaning the grid? it feels like a pretty reasonable assumption that the "they" in question refers to hrc. if hrc blocked sete from rubbering his own grid and he then went to tell them about what valentino had done, did he really expect honda to go 'oh that's all right then, I suppose we'd better rubber up your grid slot too'? seriously? (incidentally, do we think the mechanic who gave evidence was martinez himself)

juan martinez does also go on to say this:

What he does in the end or what he has always done, that's what he does, is turn his story into his truth, which gives him his motivation and that's it. It doesn't mean that it's the truth, it means it's Valentino's truth. The fact that it is his truth or that it is my truth about some things does not mean that it is the truth. When you are fighting for something in sports, there is a moment that you lose sight of the complete picture.

which, yes, this isn't terrible as insight into valentino's character, and mayhaps we can return to this at a later date. but, also, can I just say, if you go! to hrc! to tell them the man they hate! who you are engaged in a tight championship fight with! which has only FOUR ROUNDS TO GO! has maybe had his team do something a little sketchy! and then hrc ensures he gets a penalty for it! come on. specifically after you've been blocked from doing the same thing? could you really not have expected that hrc would go on to file a complaint with race direction? seriously?

incidentally, valentino did already pin the blame on martinez at the time:

well, you can still give sete the benefit of the doubt here I suppose, if you so choose. still, is valentino really just 'telling a story here and turning it into his truth'? the generous interpretation of what happened here is that sete accidentally helped cause a back of the grid penalty, and that's the generous interpretation! hey, maybe martinez is getting his story wrong, maybe he's lying, you never know. but let's just say for a moment that this is the truth... let's just that martinez and sete really did pass on this information with innocent intentions in the name of safety. would this not still make sete's rhetoric after the event a teensy bit disingenuous? it's one thing to say 'yeah this was a misunderstanding, hrc was out for you and we accidentally helped provide the material they needed to bag you a penalty'... it's quite another to say valentino fabricated this whole thing out of thin air, like you had absolutely zero involvement in the whole thing. was this really a feud valentino just invented out of nowhere?

anyway, enough motogp-flavoured true crime investigation... and listen, I do want to reiterate what I said here:

let's be clear here - even if sete did have some involvement in the penalty, obviously valentino's response to the whole thing is still a bit bonkers. like, it's definitely petty behaviour from honda. given the whole 'using a scooter to rubber up the track' does seem like it was at the very least a bit of a grey area in the rules, hrc getting valentino penalised for it is... well, it's all pretty undignified from everyone involved. that being said, valentino did vow to destroy sete and spent the next one and a half seasons tormenting him. some people would consider that a little bit of an overreaction, even if the whole thing wasn't based wholesale on delusion. at the end of the day, he did still do all that stuff

so, anyway, let's get into it! going to go all in here and tackle this shit line by line:

"I must say that it is very difficult to have good relations when you fight for the same thing, as I fought with Sete."

right, so this is obviously a commentary on his natural understanding of how rivalries work... how he believed his relationship with sete was destined to change as a result of how, starting in 2003, they were directly competing. this gels with the limited mentions we get in his autobiography of sete in 2003, which were coloured by how he believed sete had already been praying on his downfall before their actual friendship break up (here and here):

what valentino is saying here is basically a slightly more concise version of what I put in the sete post:

and, yeah, this is a natural element of competition - it's generally accepted that maintaining friendships at the sharp end of professional sports with your competitors is either extremely difficult or straight up impossible. (like marc put it in august 2015: "it's true that before the relationship was different, but because we were not fighting for the championship. it's not the relationship like a friend".) obviously there's still a fairly significant difference between 'friendship' and 'good relations' (and 'actively feuding'). but valentino is acknowledging it is just kinda part of the game... something he's willing to exploit if need be (see here for speculations on how the sete feud changed valentino's approach to rivalries in general). it was always going to be tough for that relationship not to go downhill, and valentino accepted as much. he was also clearly a lot more ready for it to come to that than sete was

"The trigger was what happened in Qatar in 2004."

there's always something interesting about what incident parties identify as the turning point in these rivalries. with sete/valentino, you could reasonably point to three different episodes:

assen 2004: last lap overtake resulting in contact that left sete 'angry', though publicly he turned the page pretty quickly. the first obvious public sign of tension between the pair

qatar 2004: for obvious reasons. the allegations of gamesmanship that made valentino openly turn on sete and end any cordial relations between the two of them, let alone friendship

jerez 2005: the most contentious on-track incident between the pair of them that continues to be infamous for the final corner contact and the post-race theatrics

valentino, when he talks about this rivalry, does seem to always go for qatar. yes, he's talked about jerez, but he doesn't bring it up when he's asked about the relationship between the pair of them. the sample size here is admittedly pretty small, but he answered in a similar way in 2015:

sete, by contrast, is generally more hung up on jerez. he's mentioned qatar a few times when commenting on how valentino had suddenly switched up towards him, but more often than not it's jerez. part of this is just... well, he's really focused on the moral injury aspect of what happened at jerez, where he feels very strongly he was wronged - and even more than that, that the incident set a bad precedent. he discusses valentino a bit in that three hour podcast episode he went on and it's basically entirely focused on that last lap corner

which, you know, if somebody manages to successfully 'put a curse' on you, I do get why this probably isn't the bit of the story you want to bring up by your own volition. it's also the kindest narrative to sete - because if it's all about his jerez, then his decline in that rivalry is more about a moral stance than it is about valentino successfully crushing his spirit

that's the thing, right... both of these choices of turning points, qatar and jerez, represent something to the two parties, and both narratives flatter the person telling them in some way. in both cases, it's about their rival doing something that's unacceptable, immoral, 'dirty' in some way... they're accusing each other of stepping outside of the bounds of what is 'acceptable' behaviour for competitors. they're accusing each other of not playing fair, of not playing the game like it should be played. this is what makes the dissolution of their friendship acceptable too, right - it's not just that they're rivals, it's not just the heat of competition or whatever, it's that their enemy did something wrong. this isn't just normal competitive tension that caused their relationship to fall apart, it's foul play

now, look, I'm not going to make some ultra contrarian argument about how it's all actually about assen 2004, This Race Clash Is The One Nobody Is Talking About... BUT this was the first public incident in which sete failed to act graciously in defeat and valentino verbally noted as much. clearly the relationship was a bit strained already headed into qatar. see the autobiography quotes, see assen... also. well. check out what valentino said at the time at qatar (from here):

"I've been looking for an excuse not to talk to sete"... this doesn't necessarily contradict how valentino frames qatar as the "trigger" - the word itself acknowledges that there was something already there just waiting to be 'triggered'. in what truly is one of the all time great presser questions, the above quote is actually put to valentino in sepang with sete sitting right next to him

good vibes!

unfortunately he doesn't really clarify what he meant here, just saying something along the lines of 'well it's a new week now'. anyway, you can interpret the initial valentino quote in several different ways. you could say he was just searching for an opportunity to engineer a feud with sete and was willing to seize on any opportunity, however flimsy. or you could say valentino had already grown suspicious of sete - presumably as a result of several past incidents between the pair of them. the stuff vale mentions in his autobiography about how sete had been predicting him to fail at yamaha, what happened at assen... again, it's the idea that sete covets what valentino has, that he's been performing graciousness - perhaps, from assen onwards at the latest, a little less successfully so. perhaps valentino just wanted to create a little more distance between the two of them for his own sake, make it easier to fire up his competitive juices - and that's what he needed an 'excuse' for. or perhaps what valentino meant was something along the lines of 'I suspected he was a snake and now he proved it'. whatever it was, it must have been enough for valentino to be ready to pull the pin on that particular friendship. so yes, qatar is the trigger. even if it triggered something that had already been festering for a much longer time

"What happened in Qatar 2004... I saw it as something dirty that I didn't expect neither from Sete, nor from Juan Martinez, who was his technical manager and who had worked with me for a long time."

okay I already discussed the descriptor of 'dirty' for sete's actions. it's something underhanded, it's something valentino doesn't like - snitching on your rivals as a dishonest way of beating them. athletes can build up incredibly convoluted frameworks of what they consider acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, and a lot of the time it is self-serving bullshit.... but it can be self-serving bullshit with an internal logic of sorts. like, this is the thing right, is going to race direction to play tattletale inherently morally so much worse than various valentino behaviours he openly admits to? eh. but for him, he sees this as a fundamentally 'dirty' and ugly way of trying to win. the stuff he does is fair game, but going around trying to find obscure rules that might not even technically exist to fuck over your rival is not okay. that's not how you should fight to win

the martinez angle has also already been mostly covered above... I was aware they'd worked together before martinez moved to the gresini team (while valentino was still at honda by the way, this wasn't a case of martinez choosing against jumping ship to yamaha when valentino left) - but it's still nice to get the confirmation that they'd worked together for a "long time". obviously, this is a fun element of 2004 in general, the extent to which valentino's sworn enemies are all the people he was working alongside in previous years, how vicious the break up had been. this was also in itself a nice source of motivation, and initially that season was as much about spiting honda as it was spiting his specific rivals who had been so wedded to the narrative that valentino was on the superior bike. though it should be noted valentino wasn't disillusioned with, like, the honda rank and file, mechanics and so on - more with honda management and the engineers. here from his autobiography:

and martinez himself was also a suspension technician in valentino's team. which, yeah, valentino feels hurt on a personal level! this is somebody he had worked with and trusted who has (allegedly) decided to do something so underhanded specifically to spite valentino! from the same autobiography excerpt as above:

rivals are one thing, you've kinda gotta expect the worst, but he does take this type of relationship very seriously. presumably it really twisted in the knife for him, this notion that one of his former team members was willing to do something this 'dirty' to him. valentino didn't expect it! not from sete and not from somebody he'd worked with for years! that's the bit that made it unforgivable, the previous personal relationships that valentino felt weren't being honoured

(incidentally, juan martinez actually ended up being nicky hayden's crew chief... during his time at ducati, where of course hayden would be reunited with valentino for two years as teammates. bit awkward!)

"I felt betrayed because it was as if I was being played."

see above, not much more to add. that's what it often comes back to for valentino, isn't it. a lot of stuff is acceptable, it's just part of the game, rivalries are supposed to be feisty and fierce and a little bit ugly. but this? again, a lot of this is about internal frameworks that athletes have for what is seen as acceptable and not acceptable within competition. valentino deploys a rather liberal definition of what should be allowed both on and off the track, but this is a hard line for him. he'll accept a lot, but not what he considers betrayal. something else that remains consistent throughout his career, including as it pertains to a certain other rivalry

"Sete was a great rival and when you fight like that it's a bit like Michael Jordan says, it's something personal."

michael jordan mention, interesting in its own right! someone who's been compared to valentino in his ruthlessness and, well, cruelty (though some of the stories about jordan make valentino look like an angel lbr). a little bit of commentary to be made there on what greatness in sports generally looks like, and how it does often involve some... hm. pretty unsavoury behaviour. the two of them have actually met a couple times, in valencia 2004 where valentino took him for a ride and laguna 2005 where they partied together after the race

obviously, it's a little funny this meeting happened at valencia 2004 of all occasions, at a time in which valentino was really finding his groove where psychologically torturing his rivals was concerned. there's always something heartwarming about athletes drawing inspiration from each other, no? but anyway, coming back to what valentino actually said here - "it's something personal". just in case anyone's unfamiliar, what this is referring to jordan's habit of drawing competitive inspiration from what he saw as personal slights (there's several compilations out there of jordan using phrasing along the lines of 'it became personal with me', if anyone wants to look it up). sete inspired valentino to up his game because valentino did increasingly take it personally when sete thwarted him - and at a certain point, valentino decided that defeat was no longer acceptable at all. the best way possible to fire himself up... take it personally, and be prepared to do whatever it takes to make his enemy's life hell

"With Sete what happened in Qatar made me very angry and it helped me to give my best until the end of that season and for the next one."

well, yes! I talked a little bit here about the parallels between marc and valentino in how they use anger to motivate themselves, mainly in the context of argentina 2018. and from valentino's autobiography:

anyway, excluding the qatar fiasco itself where he lost his temper, it's fun that he acknowledges explicitly here that the anger provided him with a good source of competitive fuel. note also the time span - the last three races of 2004 as well as the entirety of 2005. sete wasn't really a title rival any more in 2005, not after jerez, but he was still a serious on-track threat... if your goal isn't just to win the title but also to prevent sete from winning a single further race, then sure, he's still very relevant! so that rivalry was still a big part of his competitive make-up a full year after sete could no longer seriously challenge him for a title, and valentino does have enough self-awareness to consciously take advantage of that fury when he can. he probably never did that better than in 2005... his brain controlled his fury - and at every single opportunity he used it to beat sete further into submission

"If I had to give Sete some advice... it's better if he hadn't done it."

iconic banger line. evil laugh afterwards. 10/10 no notes

#this has been sitting in my drafts for a while so i'm kinda over my initial reaction to that bit of the documentary #aka sending several irritable voice notes about how apparently this information has just been out there since 2021 #still kind of staggered by the nerve of the whole thing. why would you just say that #anyway I may end up having more thoughts on this but at a certain point. got to clear those drafts #brr brr #//#batsplat responds #marquezian #irritation aside i do feel a teensy bit vindicated that my read of that qatar incident was basically correct. this was one of my theories #either this or that sete had directly suggested the grid rubbering in the safety commission meeting and unwittingly inspired vale's mistake #would've been easy to assume that valentino was being completely delusional!! he has form with it!! but something about it...#*bursting into the room* yeah we've blown this 20 year old case WIDE open through a documentary that's been publicly available since 2021 #curse tag

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tabr1-s · 6 months ago

Text

sunday rant and personal frustrations with him that i begun to write at 6am running on an entire 3 and a half hours of sleep (my cats woke me up.....)

(tldr at the end. i might be as bad as Sunday in terms of yap mileage (yappage) but i'll do one better than him and provide you with the concise version if you scroll all the way down.)

i have never felt such intense emotions about a character's moral viewpoint... Ever. and i've liked characters that were mass murderers before. morals (or lack thereof) usually never played a significant role in whether i liked a character or not (unless they did something i considered worse than plain ol murder, then i wouldn't associate with them), and 99% of the time i could find the character's motivations understandable under the circumstances that they were in.

and, technically, i can understand where Sunday is coming from too.

but that doesn't stop me from being Absolutely pissed at him.

(sunday-esque yap about myself incoming, i will eventually get to the point (which i will highlight))

as someone who has been told that i have "ocd features" Multiple times by my psychiatrist (practically each session) i understand the need for control. my obsessiveness manifests in the form of feeling the need to control practically everything - my current obsession for control being my own emotions, which extends to needing to control entire situations, and in turn makes me severely overthink all the possible outcomes to those given situations. i've also been guilty of controlling others before, and having the mentality of "i know what's best for you". hell, i still feel like that a lot, but i really try to push it back.

and this need for "control" is mainly the reason why i even find comfort in fiction. because it's oftentimes very predictable to me (it also made me think of how i do not find any interest in reading books, but i love writing stories of my own. particularly fan-fiction. and the only time i can feel comfortable enough to feel romance is towards fictional characters - because i control the narrative! it's something to think about.). if i like a character or a narrative, it's easy for me to pick apart where the writers will go with that story. and, even if the story turns out to disappoint me/be different than what i hoped for, i would still be Prepared for that possibility.

i somehow... failed to prepare for what would happen with Sunday.

i had set my sights on the wrong thing for 2.2. i invested my whole energy on trying to comfort myself that hoyo wouldn't take the ipc colonialism route (basically turning out to be capitalist/colonialist apologists) with penacony (which i Guess will be explored in 2.3? but now that i have some more context on the story and how it's unraveling i'm not as anxious about it anymore), that i overlooked a lot of other things that could've gone wrong.

namely, my favourite hsr character to be... Like that. (i'm not even being intentionally vague. i'm just dumbfounded)

i had Heard of the theory that Sunday is possessed by Ena (which didn't particularly make sense to me, and i refused to look at leaks concerning Sunday lest they upset me. either way i Really hated that theory. plus, Sunday being said to have ocd would've been an incredibly cheap way to foreshadow that he's "possessed" by the Order. you can't just create your first(?) important/playable character that has a confirmed mental illness and then go "it's okay actually he's Normal! he was just possessed". i took this very personally. and still am.), and saw a lot of theories concerning his involvement with the Order as well. i shut it all out, because i didn't like the implications of that.

which in turn made me Not think/comfort myself regarding the possibilities that he truly Was connected to the Order.

...

well, rest in pieces, me - it's always the things i don't pay much attention to/ignore/fail to think about. which is actually a bit strange because i was not expecting him to be an entirely sane person from the start - he was a politician type, a leader, and a manipulator, to name a few things. that much was obvious. in 2.0-2.1 i wouldn't have been surprised if it turned out that he was the one that "killed" Robin. again, nothing was out of the question. but, 2.1 showed a different side of him. one that cared for his sister and (seemingly) listened to her and cared about what she thought. so they became quite a comforting little sibling duo to me. tragic, yet you could depend on their mutual trust in eachother... or so i thought.

and then he... went and did all That. which just showed me how, despite him caring for his sister, he was still putting other things above her.

to conclude with my yap: in a sense, he is just my "grim reflection of the self". and although i feel sympathetic towards my past self and how naive and selfish i used to be, there are some flaws of mine i will never forgive myself for. and, Sunday, in a way, reminded me of... Everything. it was almost triggering.

(hey, writing this all down in one place helped me calm down! (it's a neverending cycle that will continue tomorrow. all it will take is seeing a post concerning him and his sister and i'll get pissed anew) yay!)

the point(s) (aka my qualms):

- how sunday manipulated robin + was planning to use her in the charmony festival to complete his plan. she was going to be an unwilling participant in creating a "utopia" that she would've been absolutely against, but he didn't stop to fucking. fill her in, maybe? talk it out? the sheer disrespect on the concept of free will and on the fact that your own sister is a human being of her own sickens me

- he should've cherished the relationship he had with her (x1000 because that's the ONE FAMILY MEMBER YOU HAD LEFT AND THAT IS SUCH A PRIVILEGE!!! IMAGINE HAVING SOMEONE CARE ABOUT YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY AND THEN YOU GO AND THROW IT AWAY!!! YEAH I'VE ALMOST DONE THE SAME EXACT THING MULTIPLE TIMES (AND STILL WOULD) BUT THAT'S WHY I ALSO KNOW HOW MUCH OF AN ASSHOLE MOVE IT IS!!!)

- he forsook his own self and shoved down his own biases and interests (fucking rat. you can't change the fact you're human and i'm very much saying that from experience) to become something Grander than life itself and in fucking turn isolated himself and shut out the one person who actually cared and then had the Gall to complain about being misunderstood/alone. (when you're finally sitting in your unreachable throne in this "dream" that you've created, who will you blame for being lonely? who will you blame when you have no one to fall back into? no one to support you? when everybody you did this for forsakes You?)

- HE DIDN'T EVEN HUG ROBIN BACK AT THE LAST SCENE. LIKE SHUT UP ABOUT YOUR FAILED PLANS AND COME DOWN FROM THE CLOUDS A LITTLE - THE JOY YOU SEEK FOR IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!

- all i hoped for was that sunday and robin would reunite and get the chance to be happy together, and the only true reason i'm mad is because i'm guilty of a lot of the same self sacrificial behaviours as him and very much understand the sentiment of "my loved ones would be better off without my negative presence and influence". but instead of empathizing with him, i feel betrayed. i thought he was better than me. i thought he was someone worthy of admiration, and that doesn't come easily from me. despite all the warning signs i fell for his obvious facade, and i Very rarely get taken by surprise - especially in a way like this.

- if it wasn't for the fact that Robin would feel sad if Sunday died i would personally go and strangle him myself

tldr; i'm just a big baby that placed a lot of faith on Sunday and his relationship with Robin post 2.1 and my ego took a Huge hit once he turned out to be just some immature emo idealist type. (come on, man - i genuinely thought you were better than me! someone worthy of respect! and i usually have a feeling of superiority over others! this was the biggest compliment/act of faith i could give! (talking to a wall (fictional character (I'M FUCKING UPSET))))

#despite all this i do not hate him. i'm just really disappointed at how he acted with robin #i will still be pulling for him; at least that way i'll be able to have both the siblings on the same team #^(haha it's like they never got separated! i'm completely fine and not delusional)#honkai star rail #hsr #hsr 2.2 #hsr 2.2 spoilers #sunday hsr #hsr sunday #robin hsr #hsr robin #ramblings #1442 words and i could've written waaay more if i didn't get tired/bored of this

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