#he wouldn't have chosen anakin if he'd HAD a choice probably

[antianakin]

I think one of the best showcases of how the prequels were meant to be an "everyone loses" story is The Last Battle in Rebels. Kelani pointing out basically that the logistics didn't make sense for how the war was going (and let's be honest the CIS could basically continuously pour out droids cheaper than the Republic could replace clones, it could have been a win of overwhelming force.)

Ezra pointing out that when both armies were basically weak and leadershipless they were destroyed.

Outside of someone managing to break out of Palpatine's manipulations, it was a no win scenario which I think a lot of recent stuff misses.

For me, I think it is and it isn't a no-win scenario. The Jedi almost beat Palpatine and Dooku and the CIS. They're SO CLOSE. Even WITH Palpatine and Dooku manipulating things behind the scenes, they nearly win the war. And without Palpatine and Dooku manipulating things so much, I think the Jedi and the Republic would've wiped the floor with the Separatists. Of course, without Palpatine and Dooku manipulating things, there's no war to win anyway, but the point stands. The Republic gets close to winning or to finding a way to peace MORE THAN ONCE and Palpatine or Dooku have to quickly engineer some sort of attack to scare the Senate into backing the war all over again.

So, yes, Palpatine and Dooku are making it impossible for either side to win, and especially impossible for the Jedi to win, but despite that, they manage to get pretty close over and over and over again.

And the other thing to take into account is, of course, Anakin. The one piece of the puzzle that no one in Rebels really knows exists in order to take it into account in their analysis of the Clone War. The ONLY REASON Palpatine wins is because Anakin allows him to. The Jedi would've killed Palpatine and ended the war with the Senate intact and hopefully moving towards peace if Anakin hadn't stepped in and saved Palpatine at the last second. The Jedi had WON, literally every single Separatist military leader was dead, leaving only the actual politicians (most of whom seem at least somewhat willing to consider trying for peace with the Republic) and the Corporate Alliance leaders who are trying not to be publicly aligned with the Separatists anyway and would likely be too cowardly to try to take over the war on their own. The only thing standing in the way of peace and the end of the war was Palpatine, and he would've died in his office if Anakin had made a different choice.

So, sure, it's SUPPOSED to be a no win scenario, but it wouldn't have taken much for the Republic to emerge the victors and it all came down to one person's choice in one specific moment. It wasn't truly a no win scenario because Anakin could've chosen differently and changed the course of history if he'd wanted to. All of Palpatine and Dooku's manipulations would've been for NOTHING if Anakin were just a slightly better person.

Obviously from the perspective of the characters in Rebels, it would probably feel like it had been a no win scenario that none of them had any control over and accepting that reality is something they'd need to do in order to find peace. But it's not entirely... true. And what I personally wish more stories these days recognized is that the Jedi and the Republic almost won, almost achieved peace, and the only reason they didn't was because Anakin Skywalker was a selfish, greedy, piece of shit who condemned an entire galaxy to save one person.

[thehollowprince]

A good Screenrant article? Color me surprised.

"Most viewers assume Qui-Gon was right to believe Anakin needed to be trained - but surprisingly, George Lucas seems to think it was a mistake.

"George Lucas believed Qui-Gon was wrong to decide to train Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace. Many viewers see Qui-Gon Jinn as the perfect Jedi, the embodiment of everything the Order was supposed to represent. He is a rebel against the Council, alone and uncorrupted, a champion of the underdog who recognizes Anakin Skywalker's potential. The reality, of course, is that Qui-Gon is a lot more nuanced; he's as flawed as any other Jedi, and in fact, George Lucas considered him even more flawed.

"Lucas expressed his own view in an interview with Cut Magazine in 1999 (via David Talks SW). In his view, Qui-Gon shares the same faults as Anakin; he is spontaneous and reckless, with Obi-Wan Kenobi providing him a sense of balance. What's more, Lucas surprisingly suggested Qui-Gon made a mistake in insisting the Jedi should train Anakin.

"I think it is obvious that he [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately, this decision may be correct. The 'phantom menace' refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces, which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin."

"It is certainly ironic that Lucas believes it "obvious" Qui-Gon shouldn't have trained Anakin. The modern consensus is that Qui-Gon was the one Jedi who could have saved Anakin, the only one who truly understood the prophecy of the Chosen One.

"The general view is that the Jedi Council was wrong to initially reject Anakin. Lucas takes a different view, though, suggesting Anakin's training was, in fact, the mistake that doomed the order. It's fascinating to imagine how the Star Wars saga would have played out if Anakin didn't join the Jedi; the most likely scenario is that he'd have been taken in by the people of Naboo as a hero, and no doubt he and Padmé would have gotten together anyway. Padmé wouldn't have held Anakin back when he began dreaming of his mother's death, so this Anakin would never have built up the fear of loss to the cataclysmic degree seen in Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith. Amazingly, this is probably the happiest path Anakin could have taken - and he was denied it because of Qui-Gon Jinn's choice.

Personal Note: I don't like the insinuation that the Jedi "held Anakin back" from pursuing his visions to save his mother because by his own admissions, they were just dreams. By the time he himself finally decided to do something about it, it was too late. But aside from that, I agree with everything else.

"It's significant that the will of the Force had Anakin brought up on Tatooine, a world outside the Republic, where he wouldn't be found by the Jedi. In his impetuousness, Qui-Gon insisted the Chosen One should be trained by the Jedi - but there's nothing to indicate the prophecy of the Chosen One suggested any such thing. Unsurprisingly, Lucas' perspective on the Star Wars saga is entirely convincing, even if it does run against the general view. Things worked out in the end, of course, but only after a whole lot of chaos on a galactic scale."

[kanansdume]

The reason I'd aruge it's true that Palpatine wouldn't have won if Anakin hadn't turned the Dark Side, is because there is a level of destiny involved here. Anakin is the Chosen One, he was intended to destroy the Sith, that's his fate should he choose it. The entire point of the prequels and ROTS in particular is that Anakin makes the choice to NOT go that particular direction and instead goes Sith because it fits into what he wants more. He's selfish and greedy and so he chooses what benefits him instead of what benefits the greater good.

If we work backwards, then if Anakin doesn't turn dark it probably means Anakin is either less attached to Padme or more mentally stable or a combo of both (probably both since he's attached to Padme BECAUSE he's mentally unstable), which means he's probably a better Jedi, which means he's more inclined towards doing selfless things for the greater good, which means he's probably far more likely to follow his destiny and destroy Palpatine because it's the right thing to do.

In that moment in Mace's office, where he's presented with that choice, he'd choose the Jedi instead. He'd help Mace kill Palpatine instead of allowing Mace to die.

Palpatine's plans don't hinge on Anakin, no, but the entire point is that Anakin's choices sort-of make or break the galaxy. It's why the entire trilogy focuses on Anakin's choices, his choice to leave Shmi, his choice to marry Padme and murder the Tuskens, his choice to save Padme and destroy the Jedi. He's the Chosen One and so his choices matter, making the entire theme of the Skywalker Saga as explicitly obvious as possible by making his choices affect literally everyone. So if Anakin hadn't gone Dark, Palpatine wouldn't have won, but it wouldn't have been because Palpatine's plans hinged on Anakin joining him. Palpatine's plans aren't static and he is a master of twisting a situation to his advantage when it's about to go South, but in that moment in his office, he could've been beaten. His only card to play was saving Padme's life, and if Anakin had been even a slightly better person, Palpatine would've been toast.

So many of the plans to “save” the prequels require Palpatine’s plans to be static and generic, like let’s say Qui-Gon was a good master for Anakin (set aside whether you agree on this or not) and the idea is that he wouldn’t have had those specific fractures Anakin and Obi-Wan had, he would have been the father figure Anakin needed.  (Set aside whether you agree with this or not, too.) But that’s saying that Palpatine would have come at Anakin from the exact same angle, instead of playing to the fractures that Qui-Gon and Anakin would have developed, like Qui-Gon’s full throttled belief in the Chosen One prophecy would have been so easy to exploit, Palpatine would have hit those notes hard, “Oh, my dear boy, I’m simply afraid that your Master only sees you as the Chosen One, not who you are for you.” Palpatine’s plans were not static, he adjusted them for when Maul survived, he adjusted them when Obi-Wan just would not die, he adjusted them when Ahsoka came into the picture, etc.  Palpatine’s plans were not static, they were dynamic and would not have been the same, if someone else had trained Anakin, they would have been tailored to that specific relationship, too.

[antianakin]

@theneutralmime

I don't believe Lucas himself has ever said this because quite simply it isn't true and it doesn't follow with the themes and messages Lucas put into Anakin's story. If you have a specific quote from Lucas you know about where he claims Qui-Gon could've kept Anakin from turning to the dark, feel free to let me know, but as far as I'm aware, he's never said it because it isn't true.

Plenty of OTHER people have said it, for sure, up to and including Dave Filoni. And there's probably a number of reasons for why they believe this.

Filoni seems to see the Jedi VERY critically as people who are elitist and too stuck in their ways to see the "truth", while Qui-Gon is enlightened and understands the "truth" better than anybody else. He thinks that this is the story TPM in telling and because Obi-Wan is a Perfect Jedi of sorts, it means that he can't really connect to or understand Anakin in a meaningful way, he's always going to try to make Anakin something he isn't and impose Jedi rules on him that are outdated and repressive in a way that Qui-Gon never would.

This is all complete and utter bullshit.

For one, Qui-Gon is only partly right. Yes, Anakin is the chosen one of the prophecy, but he DOESN'T have any concrete proof of this and the Council itself is right that Anakin's future is clouded and potentially dangerous. They're also right that Anakin isn't going to adjust well to the Jedi lifestyle which could make things difficult for him if they choose to waive the rules for him, something Qui-Gon is choosing to disregard. The whole point of the Council scenes in TPM is to showcase that they're BOTH RIGHT because Anakin at this point can go either direction in his life: he can fulfill the prophecy and become a hero, or he can turn to darkness and destroy the galaxy. Neither one is entirely right or entirely wrong in this situation because that's just... not the point. Qui-Gon is NOT more enlightened than the Council is in this instance even though he's not wrong about Anakin being a child of prophecy.

For two, even though Anakin would likely never be ENTIRELY comfortable with the Jedi lifestyle, I think it's undeniable that the Jedi teachings WOULD help Anakin with his emotional instability if they'd been able to do so without Palpatine's interference. This wouldn't ever get him to the point where he'd be a good JEDI, but it would get him to the point where he'd be emotionally healthy and balanced enough to recognize that this isn't the path he wants to walk and amicably chooses to leave the Order to pursue a life more suited to his needs and desires.

There's nothing in canon to support the idea that Obi-Wan struggles with training Anakin or that he has no idea what to do with him. The CLOSEST you get to that is Obi-Wan claiming to Luke in ROTJ that he thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda and that he was wrong, but this storyline got sort-of changed in the prequels when they swapped Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's positions in the narrative, taking the narrative of Obi-Wan being arrogant to something very different.

For three, and this is the biggest reason that this idea of Qui-Gon being able to save Anakin is complete and utter bullshit, the primary reason Anakin falls is because ANAKIN CHOOSES TO FALL. It's not about having a better teacher, there is NO other teacher Anakin could've had that would've kept him from falling because the entire POINT of the story is that Anakin made that choice all on his own. He DID have a good teacher, he WAS given all of the tools he needed to make a better choice, he just didn't want to use any of them because he's selfish and greedy and inclined towards attachments. Removing Anakin's agency in his own story by claiming Qui-Gon could've saved him destroys the entire POINT of Anakin's story. It HAS to be a choice Anakin makes DESPITE knowing it's the wrong choice to make or every single theme in Star Wars goes right out the window. There's no meaning to Anakin choosing to save Luke and sacrifice himself if it doesn't contrast Anakin choosing to sacrifice EVERYONE ELSE for power earlier. They're both HIS CHOICE and that's so so important. Qui-Gon being able to train him would change NOTHING. Anakin would still make that choice because it's the story Lucas wanted to tell. And this is why I'm like 99% certain that Lucas himself has never once claimed Qui-Gon could've saved Anakin because I KNOW he's said things in interviews where he specifically discusses that it was Anakin's choice because he's selfish and greedy. THAT'S the story Lucas was trying to tell and he'd never say otherwise.

Qui-Gon would not have saved Anakin, Obi-Wan was not a subpar teacher, and Anakin made his own damn choices and always would have regardless of who trained him.

[antianakin]

@theneutralmime

Okay, we've got a lot happening here.

First, why do people demonize Obi-Wan keeping the truth about Anakin's identity from Luke. I'm probably not the right person to ask given that I'm not one of those people who demonizes him, so I can't speak to that mindset very well, but a lot of just feels like basic bad faith interpretations of Obi-Wan's motivations. Some of it might be the assumption that, if Obi-Wan or Yoda had just told him the truth, then Luke wouldn't have had to be told by Anakin himself and had that particular bombshell dropped in the worst possible way. Which, you know, MAYBE. But we also don't know precisely how Luke would've reacted to learning that information when he was younger or how that would've impacted his Jedi training, something both Obi-Wan and Yoda were fairly worried and cautious about. They're presumably TRYING to give Luke his best chance here. Of course then you have people claiming that Obi-Wan and Yoda lie because they don't CARE about Luke himself and only care about raising Luke as their personal weapon to take down Anakin and Palpatine, which is obviously ridiculous.

It's also just ignoring how much Obi-Wan DOES tell Luke. He explains a lot about what "Vader" did, how he was once a Jedi, how he betrayed them, etc. But he also talks about "Anakin" who he describes positively. He gives Luke the most complete and nuanced picture of Anakin that he can. Imagine Luke being told straight-up in this moment that his father is Vader. He'd likely never give Anakin a chance to be good at all because that information would, for good and obvious reasons, override anything positive Obi-Wan might have to say about it. But leaving that piece of information out allows Luke to continue remembering Anakin as a good person for a while longer, even after he meets "Vader" in person, so by the time he has to face this particular truth, he's in a better place to consider the ENTIRE truth rather than just get stuck on his first reaction.

And like you said, Luke himself clearly gets it. He's clearly not HAPPY about being lied to or the revelation itself, but he's not all that angry either and he gives both Obi-Wan and Yoda multiple chances to explain why they did it and their perspective on the situation without getting particularly accusatory.

So I dunno, maybe some people feel like Luke SHOULD be more angry than he is at Obi-Wan and Yoda and just project the way THEY would feel about the issue onto Luke himself. I can't say I don't do similar things myself. I often feel like people should be more angry at ANAKIN than they are in canon and like to just project that onto the characters when I can (like Obi-Wan, or Ahsoka, or Rex), so that I can explore the situation from that perspective. But, you know, Obi-Wan lies a tiny bit with the best of intentions and Anakin commits multiple genocides and enslaves multiple entire populations for several decades in a row, so I feel like one of these is more justified than the other lol.

I THINK what you're saying next here is that Obi-Wan might genuinely believe Anakin is dead, which... is likely only true for a certain amount of time. As per Disney canon, he discovers this 10 years after ROTS. Within Lucas canon, Obi-Wan is clearly perfectly aware that Anakin is still alive and out there since he discusses Vader pretty candidly as the person who betrayed him, so he knows that Vader and Anakin are the same person when we meet him in ANH. What isn't clear (if we don't take the Kenobi show into account) is precisely WHEN he finds this out, but he knows it by the time he's talking to Luke about it all. This isn't just a genuine misunderstanding on Obi-Wan's part.

As for whether I think things would've been better if he'd killed Anakin on Mustafar, I mean... yes? Kinda, yes. The thing about prophecies in Star Wars is that they tend to be kind-of nebulous things. Anakin IS the Chosen One, he absolutely is, but that doesn't mean he has no choice in his own fate. Anakin could, theoretically, defy that prophecy until the day he dies. Choice is really important in Star Wars, it's a major theme that Lucas chose to put in there, and so the prophecy is not DICTATING what Anakin ends up doing. Anakin was not always going to fall to darkness, the Republic falling to the Sith was not "meant to be" and neither was the destruction of the Jedi (if you've seen the Ahsoka show, you'll know that Filoni doesn't believe this and he's peddling a different story, so this is primarily within Lucas canon and the better shows like the Kenobi show). That prophecy isn't going to kill Palpatine, it isn't a guarantee of his eventual demise that the galaxy just has to wait long enough for. AT BEST, I think the prophecy is a guarantee that if ANAKIN tries to kill Palpatine, he will succeed. That's it. And I think he also has to be killing Palpatine FOR THE RIGHT REASONS or it won't work (for example if he's trying to kill Palpatine so he can become the Sith Master, he'll fail; it HAS to be done out of selflessness or the prophecy doesn't kick in). This also means that Palpatine could, theoretically, be killed by someone or something else. It's not IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen, just immensely more difficult and extremely unlikely.

All of this is to say that if Obi-Wan had killed Anakin on Mustafar, it doesn't like... doom the galaxy to be ruled by the Sith forever necessarily just because the Chosen One is now dead. It won't slow Palpatine down much, he'll still have the stormtroopers and the Inquisitors and people like Tarkin and he's still working on the Death Star. But it takes Vader out of commission, it's one less weapon of mass destruction on Palpatine's belt that he can deploy as desired upon the people of the galaxy. And it's one less threat aimed at the Force sensitive people of the galaxy. Palpatine can always pick another Sith apprentice, but they'd never be the same level of power as Anakin. So there's a lot of positives to Anakin being removed from the playing board a lot earlier, even if it means taking out Palpatine himself potentially becomes a lot more difficult.

That being said, it's a lot easier than when Vader is standing between Palpatine and the galaxy, so, you know, pros and cons there too. Not a single person is actually counting on the prophecy anyway at this point, so the changes are all fairly positive as far as the galaxy is concerned. But whether Palpatine would've actually ended up killed or not is entirely up to speculation. It could go either way, with Palpatine being more vulnerable and so he gets killed earlier, or with Palpatine being able to rule even longer than he does in canon. I like to think that Palpatine could be taken out by other means, even with Anakin out of the game entirely, that he's not incapable of being killed.

Also, there's nothing saying that if Anakin fails as a child of prophecy that the Force and the midichlorians couldn't just... try again and pick/create a new Chosen One as a reaction to Anakin's death.

[gffa]

I just saw a comment on Instagram that Luke making Grogu choose between the saber and the chain armour was a test.

As in, off-screen Grogu could have chosen the saber and Luke would be like "you passed the test, let's go save your dad"

I really liked that idea. Probably not going to happen but interesting none the less

Now I just wanted to ask how you think this could fit in with your view on Luke asking him bc he wants to make sure Grogu's heart is in (referencing the long post you made about that)

Best wishes!

Hi! I think whatever happens after the choice Luke puts before Grogu doesn't really matter, in the sense that it's about what's in Grogu's heart, not some trick question. It's not a test, it's a choice. I don't think there's a puzzle to solve here, I don't think it's a situation where, had Grogu chosen the lightsaber, Luke would suddenly say that Grogu's fine now, because that's not why he put forth the choice in the first place. The problem is that Grogu wasn't really committed, that he was struggling with how much he missed Din, despite that he'd previously made the decision to go with Luke himself. Grogu wants to want to be there, but his heart isn't really in it, as Luke questions. And Ahsoka isn't asking Din to hold off on seeing Grogu because Jedi can't have outside friendships (we see that the Jedi Order has always had outside friendships, that they immediately make friends with people as soon as they see them--look at Obi-Wan and Dex, Yoda and Tarrful, the Jedi and the clones, etc.), but because it would make it harder for Grogu to have those feelings ripped open anew. That's where Grogu is at that moment. He's conflicted, in a way that's dangerous for psychic space wizards. That doesn't go away if Grogu chooses the lightsaber, those feelings are still going to be there, his difficulties will still be there, and immediately going to see Din right afterward would only make that struggle harder. If Grogu wasn't in a place where he was struggling with these conflicting desires, then the choice wouldn't have been necessary in the first place. If he were able to settle into this path he'd decided on, then Luke wouldn't need to ask him to choose between the two things, because he'd already have done so. So, I lean towards the idea that the choice is exactly what it's presented as--Grogu has two paths before him, he's feeling torn between them and needs to whole-ass one thing, not half-ass two things. And even if he had chosen the lightsaber, that doesn't mean the conflict within him is immediately resolved, it still would have taken time and immediately going after Din would have made his decision much harder. If Grogu had been settled and it was only Luke who wasn't sure Grogu was sure? Then, yes, give him the shirt and even go help Din if he needed it. But Grogu wasn't settled and that was what the choice was about, a genuine question of what Grogu wanted, not some kind of test imo. And I think that makes a ton of sense, given a) what Luke Skywalker went through himself and the mistakes he made in his own training and how George Lucas says leaving Dagobah early was a mistake for him and what Luke knows of Anakin's refusal to choose and b) Luke was very much right about Grogu and the choice presented was the most kind thing he could do in that situation.

[transmalewife]

hey ok i'm gonna reblog this even though i don't really want to because i need to adress something, but first for the post, since if you tagged me i assume you want my opinion about the post.

Qui-Gon was a shit master, in my opinion. I read the first few rising force books and let me tell you i have not seen an adult antagonise a child in their care this strongly since my most evil preschool teacher took maternity leave and we all cheered that we'd never see her again. Even only looking at the movies, he treats Obi-Wan like an incompetent child who isn't ready to be knighted, despite being 25 and very much ready, until the very second he finds a new padawan and casts him aside. I don't like when people read that scene as Obi-Wan being absolutely heartbroken, because what we actually see is him excited he'll finally get to take his trials, but you have to admit its a pretty dick move on qui gons part. and if we're gonna blame how anakin turned out on obi-wan (which we should, like he was absolutely at least partially responsible for anakin's fall. directly responsible for anakin not going to save shmi until it was too late) then we have to be consistent and conclude that since obi wan is a neurotic little freak, it's probably got something to do with having to be hyperresponsible since he was a child, because someone had to be and qui gon wasnt.

Anakin wasn't a good master, he was a cool mom. Like he was just 4 years older than ahsoka. him getting a padawan is in universe a test for him. both him and ahsoka are dehumanized by it, taking away their choice to participate in a tradition so important to what it means to be a jedi on their own terms and when they were ready. I think in a way this lineage has a cycle. obi wan had to take responsibility for qui gon being all over the place, while also feeling inadequate because he wasnt chosen to be a padawan at first and trying to live up to his own insane standards. he was then too strict on anakin, because he was afraid he couldnt handle the responsibility, so anakin rebeled and became as chaotic as qui gon. and ahsoka then had to clean up his messes while also trying to survive the trauma of being a child soldier. its actually a really good representation of the real life phenomenon of people raising their children in the opposite way to their parents and fucking them up in the other direction. Anakin wasn't ready to be a master, but he was a really good friend and brother. he was to ahsoka what he'd needed as a padawan, but what she needed was someone responsible, someone who wasnt seen as a child by the council, someone to who the council would listen when he stood up for her when she was framed, instead of treating it as anakin failing their little attachment test.

I fully agree that yoda is a dick tho and i do put direct blame for a lot if not most of the order's problems on him.

Anyway, point is, just because i don't think anakin was literally the devil incarnate from birth, doesn't mean that i think he was perfect. just because obi-wan fucked a lot of things up, doesn't mean i'm going to ignore all the real ways he was hurt by the order and council, especially since most of his flaws as anakin's master come directly from him internalizing that shit. just because i like... have basic media comprehension and see the blatant critique of the order and the republic that's shown in the prequels, doesn't mean i think they were inherently evil or unsalvageable. like, if i actually hated the jedi, i wouldn't be so obsessed with star wars. I'm very firmly not pro-jedi, but that doesn't mean i'm anti-jedi or whatever. generally, I'm pro nuance. discussion not arguments

and on that note. I see a lot of people in this fandom who have reframed this as some sort of war. i've said it before but the sw universe is so huge that you can find sources to support or debunk pretty much any claim you make if you dig deep enough. I don't love when people deny obvious plot points from the movies, but i've learned my lesson, and if they don't do it on my posts i just let it go and unfollow whoever put it on my dash if its especially annoying. I've been on and off in this fandom on tumblr for more than half a decade, and idk maybe its bc i wasnt that deep into it before, but i do see it getting worse. I see people seeking out posts just to get angry about. i see people getting so stuck in their "side" of this debate they'll excuse child slavery or child murder. I see that everywhere else online too. this pandemic is hell and has made the worst things about the internet even worse. but when people find posts just to get angry about them, just to argue, and it's about politics, racism, homophobia (sometimes even within the context of fandom) at least the level of intensity is excusable since its real problems that affect real lives. I have so many fucking reasons to be horrified and stressed out and furious in real life, i refuse to add the plot of silly sci fi movies to this.

I don't, as a rule, reply to star wars meta i strongly disagree with anymore, i make my own posts if i feel the urge. Maybe its because i've unfollowed so many people i rarely if ever see meta i don't agree with anymore.

this post might seem a bit of a drastic reaction, and i'm sorry for that, because this isn't really adressed to you, but also other people that have done this in the past, some of whom were conveniently also tagged. I like participating in this fandom, and I'd like to keep it that way, and to do that i need to limit the stress i feel about it. that includes just not fucking reading sprawling, pages long back and forth arguments that stop being about the actual media halfway through and turn into listing all the online crimes of the other "side" of this invented war, whether or not the people actually involved had anything to do with them.

Just because i've said some things you agree with doesn't mean we'll agree on everything. these "sides" are made up and i'm a lot closer to the middle than a lot of people like to make me out to be. I'd like you to think why you tagged me in this, because i'm honestly not sure. Did you want me to clap and agree? build on top of what you said? share my opinion? well, I guess i did my best, but to be perfectly honest, and admitedly a bit meaner than im usually comfortable being online, the post was oozing with anger and overly simplistic, and just plain weird as an addition to an unrelated one sentence shitpost.

This isn't to say you can't tag me in things! I love being tagged in things! would love to be tagged in something that doesn't make me go uh... why though? one day. Like if you wan't my opinion about some specific issue, tag me in that sentence. If you want to reference a post i made, absolutely do tag me and i'd love to chip in, (i can't promise i will if it's in a reply to a miles long argument, because i just don't have that kind of time anymore, and i have too much good meta saved in my likes to read already). If you want to show me a post you've made, just send it to me. this isn't a gifset where you tag people to give it more traction, this is your addition to a shitpost. you're effectively associating my name with your opinion, not just cool gifs, and an opinion i disagree with. especially since, unlike everyone else on this list, i'm not actually a star wars blog. at least put the tags under a read more idk

like, i get it. arguing with people is really fun sometimes, I do miss my occasional rabid anons, some of my best meta came out of them. but there was a time when i let my entire engagement with this fandom be chaneled through anger about this issue and that was neither healthy nor fun. if you can live your life that way without going insane, that's great, but please don't drag me into it.

EDIT: also the absolute fucking cherry on the cake being tagging me in the same post as a transphobe anyway go block the third blog on the list

the jedi master who instructed me doesnt know shit about fuck

[princepondincherry]

#and then he meets kanan and ezra in rebels and realizes he finally got exactly what he always had secretly wished for#he's got a real jedi now#he's got one of the GOOD jedi now#as much as kanan doesn't really trust rex yet he still came back to save the clones from the empire#and that one moment tells rex more than anything else kanan says or does#anakin never would've done that#he never would've come back to save someone he didn't trust and didn't like#not without an ulterior motive anyway#anakin would've considered their deaths an unfortunate tragedy probably#but that it was more important to get his own people to safety#kanan chose to turn around and put his life on the line instead#and so teaches his padawan to do the same#because all life is precious. even if you don't understand it or don't like it. ESPECIALLY if you don't understand it or like it.#so rex chooses to follow kanan#because he didn't get to choose his jedi before this#he wouldn't have chosen anakin if he'd HAD a choice probably#but he gets to choose now#and he didn't WANT to be a soldier again#but kanan came in and inspired him and reminded him of that long ago wish he once had to follow a jedi he truly respected#and so he chooses kanan now the way he never chose anakin

I'd love more exploration of Rex perhaps feeling like he got kind-of the short end of the stick in terms of Jedi. He LIKES Ahsoka, for sure, she's got a spirit he admires and she's tenacious and it's hard not to care for her. And Anakin is, well, powerful for sure and friendly enough, so for a while Rex thinks he came out pretty well with his Jedi.

But then he starts meeting other Jedi or working alongside other Jedi and he realizes how much more competent other Jedi often are, especially the more experienced ones. And while Anakin is friendly enough, he's seen a lot of the other clones have MUCH closer relationships to their Jedi and certainly none of THEM ask their captains or commanders to lie to superior officers about secret relationships or unsanctioned missions. He's a little surprised once when he notices pretty much every other Jedi remembers that the clones can't always keep up with the Jedi and will unhesitatingly adjust their battle strategy to accommodate it. He sees the way other young Padawans are being taught to do something similar, to really consider the lives of the clones when they're in battle as the higher priority rather than the success of the mission.

And Rex starts wondering what his life might be like if he had ended up with a different Jedi. He loves his men, he's proud of the work they do most of the time, and he doesn't DISLIKE the Jedi he ended up with, but sometimes he's kind-of jealous of some of his brothers and wishes he'd gotten their Jedi instead.

[antianakin]

My theory for Anakin getting given a Padawan is based more on Ahsoka having a line (I'm fairly certain she does, anyway, you've seen it twice recently so if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know) about how Yoda told her the Force led him to pairing her and Anakin together.

So it's entirely possible Obi-Wan may have posited the idea of giving Anakin a Padawan to try to teach him some responsibility and keep him a little more contained when he got knighted early, but that it was Yoda who chose Ahsoka. Or maybe Yoda brought the idea of assigning Ahsoka as Anakin's apprentice to Obi-Wan and so Obi-Wan was AWARE Ahsoka was coming and why and just chose not to tell Anakin until she was there because he knew how Anakin would react and wanted Anakin to have to spend time with her to see if he'd change his mind. Which is, in fairness, exactly how that happens.

We know as the audience that Anakin being assigned a child to protect is an ironically frightening choice, that Anakin being able to influence a Jedi child's future is perhaps not the smartest idea.

But Anakin is also "the Chosen One" and my interpretation of the Yoda Force Ghost arc is that the Force is still trying in some ways to help Anakin down the right path. It's ALWAYS trying to help Anakin down the right path in one way or another, you can view the Mortis arc from that lens, too. Anakin and Ahsoka COULD be good for each other. As you said, Ahsoka shares many of Anakin's flaws and the Jedi fully believe that you can learn as much from teaching your student as your student learns from you. So as Anakin is forced to try to teach Ahsoka things like patience and duty and all of that, he may be able to learn the lessons even better himself. Look at things like Kanan only figuring out what "do or do not, there is no try" means after he has to teach it to Ezrat. Anakin and Ahsoka have the POTENTIAL to bring out the best in each other, to help each other reach new heights. It doesn't quite work out that way, but the potential was there.

I'm not sure it's just that Obi-Wan and Yoda are completely blind to Anakin's faults, they absolutely know they exist. They just also don't have any idea that Anakin has very recently murdered an entire village down to the last child. I imagine if they had that information, they'd have hesitated to hand him a student. They probably wouldn't have knighted him and given him power over the lives of an entire legion of men, either, for that matter.

So while we the audience are looking at recent baby-killer Anakin with horror when he's handed a young easily influenced Jedi child to raise and protect and guide, the Jedi can't look at it with that perspective. From their perspective, they've got a dude who's incredibly competent but still working on some emotional maturity issues and an extremely advanced young initiate with her own maturity issues and decide that these two could understand each other on a level few others ever could and ultimately help each other find a balance. Ahsoka has to step up, Anakin has to rise to the occasion, they both have to choose to commit themselves to this relationship.

There's an entire subplot in AOTC about Obi-Wan having to learn to have faith in Anakin, that his worry about Anakin being too arrogant to go on his first solo mission was perhaps arrogant on his own part. That at some point he was just going to have to trust that he'd done his job as well as he could have and let Anakin make his own mistakes or succeed on his own. He had to have faith in Anakin. And by the end, he seems to have made his peace with that. While that journey is ironic given what we as the audience see Anakin DO in this film, that's Obi-Wan's journey. Yoda tells Anakin in season six of TCW that it's his spontaneity that can be his greatest strength, so while Yoda's fully aware that Anakin does not always follow the rules, he also thinks that it can sometimes be a good thing. There's no reason NOT to pass that along to Ahsoka, as well.

As for Ahsoka, I agree that she seems to take on some of the values of the Jedi lifestyle post Order 66, but she also very much struggles with things like attachment, too. She fights for the Rebellion and all, but when Anakin re-enters her life, she very nearly falls apart. She chooses to die with Anakin rather than return to the Rebellion with Kanan and Ezra simply because she feels guilty for "leaving" Anakin to his fate without her.

She also does NOT identify as a Jedi, nor does she seem to be truly be known as such. The person who sends Din to Ahsoka when he asks after Jedi is Bo-Katan who knew Ahsoka before she had left the Order and before Order 66, so she can still associate Ahsoka with being a Jedi in a way others may not.

She refuses to train Grogu or even take him in as a Force sensitive youngling. Which is very odd and frustrating given the Rebels episode where she and Kanan agree that the Force sensitive children of the galaxy were once protected by the Order and now only have the two of them to do the best they can. They both agree that it's up to them, now. And then when Din shows up with Grogu, she just refuses any responsibility towards him because he reminds her too much of Anakin, another sign of attachment on her part. She doesn't even have to TRAIN him if she doesn't want to, she could theoretically just take care of him and protect him and try to find him a stable home somewhere. She's clearly at least somewhat familiar with Luke because he's not surprised to see her and they've already met by BOBF which isn't set all that much later than her appearance in Mandalorian, so she could've just... agreed to take him to Luke, to at least provide him a home with someone who understood his powers and could communicate with him. To at least give Grogu the choice. But she doesn't.

I think she has chosen to be a compassionate person, and many of the choices she makes do resonate with what the Jedi would do, but Ahsoka absolutely does not identify as a Jedi right now and still struggles a lot with trying to come back to the Jedi life due to her attachment to Anakin. She's talking to Luke, but she's not helping him with his school or training anyone herself. And teaching is central to being a Jedi.

I like to think Ahsoka would have stayed in the Order ultimately if the Wrong Jedi arc hadn't happened, it obviously throws a major bomb on her relationship with the Council and her ability to identify as a Jedi at all. But I think if she'd had to spend a lot more years with Anakin and his feelings towards the Jedi, that she'd have maybe struggled with being a Jedi going forward, with being willing to give herself over to that lifestyle if she couldn't trust the Council completely.

That or she'd have ultimately just ended up struggling under Anakin's tutelage, depending on which way things fell. But I think ultimately something may have had to give, whether it was her relationship with Anakin or her relationship to the Order. And we know how attached she is to Anakin, so while I WANT to believe she'd choose the Order if it came down to it, that being a Jedi would be more important to her, I'm not 100% certain.

Man, now that I've made the connection between Palpatine intentionally manipulating Anakin against the Jedi and Anakin somewhat unintentionally poisoning Ahsoka against the Jedi, I can't unsee it.

We have this lineage that, yes, is called the disaster lineage, but is full of such beautiful wonderful Jedi who seem to have genuinely loved being a Jedi (at least, for a while in Dooku's case) and genuinely loved teaching and loved their students. And we see how that love and passion and dedication DID get passed down. We can see Yoda's patience and cleverness in Dooku, Dooku's passion in Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon's love and determination in Obi-Wan. We can even see some of Obi-Wan's lessons in Anakin every so often.

But Anakin isn't listening the same way everyone else was. Anakin doesn't believe the same way everyone else did.

Anakin gives lip service to the lessons he learned from Obi-Wan ("purpose before feelings") and Ahsoka certainly HEARS them, but she's also picking up just as much from Anakin's actual actions and choices and the lessons he teaches that go unsaid as she ever is from the few times he throws out some platitudes. She picks up on his mistrust of the Council, his belief that the Jedi aren't good enough. She knows that he wants to leave, that he's not even necessarily HAPPY as a Jedi all the time. She picks up on his disobedience and arrogance and impatience and puts herself in dangerous situations because of it. She sees his attachments, his attachment to HER, his attachments maybe even to Padme and Obi-Wan.

Anakin passes on just as much if not more of what he learned from PALPATINE than he ever did from Obi-Wan. Because actions can speak louder than words, and Anakin's actions show where his beliefs and values truly lie, and it isn't with the Jedi.

So Anakin breaks the lineage. He destroys Ahsoka's hopes of ever truly being a good Jedi Knight long before he commits genocide against the Order because he'd already started turning her against them, potentially without even realizing that that's what he was doing. Ahsoka got trained by Darth Vader, by Palpatine's apprentice, before he took on the name and position officially.

Which raises the question of whether Ahsoka WOULD'VE stayed in the Order ultimately in a situation where the Wrong Jedi arc doesn't happen, Palpatine is killed early, and Anakin stays for longer for one reason or another, but remains married to Padme and living a life of secrecy and lies. Would Ahsoka have ultimately had just enough mindfulness to decide to walk away? Would she have always decided the Jedi were too busy playing politics to truly help anyone, or did that only happen because of the Wrong Jedi arc? Would Anakin's training of her always have ultimately led to that end just because he's giving her Palpatine's poison, but she grew up on Jedi foundations of mindfulness that would give her the ability to actually walk away that Anakin has never had?

[antianakin]

I actually think we have canon evidence that he wouldn't have. Palpatine asks Anakin to leave Obi-Wan behind at the beginning of ROTS, he practically makes it an order and impresses upon him that they don't have time to bother with saving Obi-Wan. Anakin's response is "His fate will be the same as ours" and saves Obi-Wan ANYWAY.

Because in that moment, it is explicitly a choice between Obi-Wan and Palpatine. He is willing to POTENTIALLY risk Palpatine's life in order to give Obi-Wan a greater chance to live, than he is to guarantee Obi-Wan's death to give Palpatine a greater chance to live. There's probably also an element of arrogance here in that Anakin believes he can save both because he's powerful and special, but he doesn't say that when he refuses. In Anakin's list of priorities, it would appear that Obi-Wan ranks above Palpatine. You could extend this and argue that the rest of the Jedi would probably also rank above Palpatine, though perhaps not for the same reasons.

But by the time you get to the scene with Mace in Palpatine's office, it's a choice between Mace/the Jedi as a whole and PADME. Saving Palpatine is only more important because he needs Palpatine to save Padme. If Padme weren't a factor in this, he probably wouldn't have chosen Palpatine. However, I'd be willing to bet Palpatine is FULLY fucking aware of this. There's hints that Anakin's visions of Padme aren't true visions anyway and just something Palpatine sort-of manufactures anyway to try to force Anakin into a situation where the stakes are high enough that Anakin will choose to turn on the Jedi.

But once Padme's life is in play, Anakin WILL choose to save Padme, no matter who is in his way, no matter who he has to kill, no matter how much sleep he's gotten. Palpatine's aware of that, so I don't personally think he'd just let Padme get through giving birth without dying. If Anakin doesn't turn because of the visions, then Padme's just going to get killed some other way or die in childbirth and he'll promise Anakin a way to bring her back to life instead. I don't think there's any real way that we would get to this point in the story and Padme could just... give birth safely so that Anakin could make a better choice. Palpatine's clearly figured out that between the three options available to him (Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, and Padme), it is Padme who Anakin is most likely to abandon everything to save and protect.

So if Padme had given birth already and Anakin had received no additional visions and so had no reason to consider Padme at all in this decision, it's entirely possible he'd have chosen the Jedi instead of Palpatine. But Palpatine's never going to let that happen, so regardless of whether it's true or not, Anakin's still always going to be in a position where he's choosing between Padme and the Jedi, and the Jedi are never going to win that.

I've seen people argue that part of the reason Anakin commits genocide in ROTS is because he's halfway out of his mind with sleep deprivation or some shit, as if Anakin Skywalker isn't someone who massacred an entire village of Tuskens down to the last child despite clearly having had several days if not a week of perfectly good sleep on Naboo beforehand.