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silverwhittlingknife · 4 months

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hi Silver! o/ because that fanart made me wonder - would you happen to know when/where Dick's stuffed elephant plush Zitka turns up in the comics?

GREETINGS CAM <3333 THAT ART WAS SO CUTE

Yeah, I think your instincts are right - it's a truly adorable bit of transformative fandom, but I'm 95% percent sure it's not comics canon. Barbara has canon plushies, but I don't think anyone else does.

I got kinda invested in the investigation (it's hard to prove a negative!) and I ended up typing out an entire History of Elinore/Zitka, so, uh, if you're curious, meet me below the cut for:

Where does Elinore / Zitka - the animal - appear in comics?

Did Dick ever have a stuffed elephant toy in comics?

Where does Elinore / Zitka appear in comics?

We're gonna go in chronological order!

Dick's circus elephant friend was first created for practical reasons: in Batman 436, Marv Wolfman does a big expanded flashback to Dick's circus backstory as a way to subtly show us Tim before officially introducing him (so that we can have a technically-solvable mystery-of-Tim's-identity in LPoD). In this comic, there's an elephant named Elinore who loves Dick:

Aww. Such a cute elephant!

Batman 436 comes out in August 1989. New Titans 60 comes out a few months later, in November, and guess what? When Dick visits the circus, he is suddenly surprised by an unexpected blast from the past! It turns out that even though it's been years, Elinore still remembers him!

Here's the part where Elinore remembers Dick:

SUCH a cute elephant. I love her.

(Guess who else still remembers Dick even though it was so long ago. Guess which other character is about to be an unexpected blast from the past. Guess which character Elinore is directly paralleling guess guess guess sorry everything is about Dick and Tim in my mind but I can focus I swear)

Four years later, in 1993, Batman: The Animated Series retells Dick's origin story. They like and keep Wolfman's elephant, but they change her name to Zitka:

Wolfman doesn't return to the elephant beyond those two appearances, and a few years down the line, New Titans gets cancelled and Wolfman's not writing Dick anymore anyway. So the animal gets abandoned for a while, until Devin Grayson, a fan of both Wolfman and B:tAS, revives the Wolfman-era Titans team in JLA/Titans and then the ongoing series Titans 1999.

Grayson then brings back the elephant in a flashback to Dick's past in Titans 16 (Jun 2000), where she imports the B:tAS name. Sometimes I'm skeptical of TV-to-comics imports, but honestly, I endorse this one. You lose the alliteration, which is a shame, but IMO Zitka is a better elephant name than Elinore.

Here's Dick with the newly-christened Zitka in Titans 16:

Grayson also briefly references the elephant in Gotham Knights 20 and - in a final angsty callback - in Nightwing 88 (Feb 2004), where Zitka tries futilely to comfort Dick in the midst of his trauma conga line:

... And... honestly, I think that's it for comic appearances? The two Wolfman comics plus the three Grayson comics.

Both Wolfman and Grayson are writing multiple titles - Batman, New Titans, Titans, Gotham Knights, and Nightwing between the two of them, spanning a big chunk of Dick's post-Crisis canon - and both writers use the elephant for heartwarming moments of nostalgia, which means if you're doing a post-Crisis readthrough for Dick, Elinore/Zitka feels memorable. But I don't think she actually shows up that much.

For post-2011, I am not as well-informed - throwing this out to the dash? anyone know? - but I feel like Zitka the heartwarming symbol of Dick's heartwarming circus past is, uh, thematically very at odds with the Court of Owls evil!circus vibes, so my instinct is that this story element was almost certainly dropped in the reboot.

Did Dick ever have a stuffed elephant toy in comics?

In WFA, yes; in main comics continuity, no. Technically, I have not read every comic ever published, so I could be wrong!! But I don't think so.

Below, find my rambling reasoning on the tonal vibes of pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, and post-2011, and why this particular story element doesn't seem right to me for the first two.

Pre-Crisis (...okay, mostly the Silver Age): stuffed animal, yes or no?

tl;dr no, requires too much background knowledge on the part of the reader, plus the elephant wasn't a thing until later

Elinore doesn't get created until post-Crisis, but also just generally, pre-Crisis callbacks are more along the lines of this reference in Batman 129 (published in 1960), where, wow, Batman and Robin are hunting jewel thieves - and it turns out Robin recognized this strongman! BUT HOW?!

The comic goes on to recap Dick's entire origin story in flashback, on the assumption that you may not know it.

(BTW, if you'd like to know more about Haly's Circus throughout the years, nightwingology has a great post here summarizing a lot of fun plotlines and characters!)

Basically: Silver Age comics are very self-consciously episodic and kid-friendly; they're not generally gonna do overly-elaborate callbacks because they don't know what comics their kid readers may have randomly picked up or remember.

By the time of post-Crisis, comic books were being written for an adult audience buying from the direct market, i.e. readers who are collecting whole runs & don't need or want Dick's origin story to be recapped to us in full every time it's referenced. That's why in post-Crisis, we get stuff like "hey, neat, this particular soda brand is getting mentioned in several different books!!" or "in order to understand this story arc, buy SIXTEEN DIFFERENT COMICS in FIVE DIFFERENT RUNS and read them ALL ACCORDING TO A NUMBERED ORDER and also you better be following the individual plotlines and recognize these five minor characters who we don't bother to introduce!! Good luck!!" But the elaborate post-Crisis plotlines - and subtler worldbuilding like a stuffed animal callback to Dick's backstory - don't make a lot of story sense UNLESS you're imagining your readers as completionist adult fans.

So IMO a stuffed animal wouldn't be a pre-Crisis thing unless it was The Episodic Story Of the Week, and I don't think a stuffed animal is action-adventure-y enough for the fast-paced storytelling of the Silver Age. (Unless it, like, came to life and tried to eat you or something.)

Post-Crisis: stuffed animals, yes or no?

tl;dr: no, Dick's a manly tough guy, he's not gonna have a stuffed animal, that'd be lame, like something Tim might do

Part of the edgy grimdark adult vibes in 80s/90s comics is that some characters who used to be kinda silly & goofy & lighthearted - like Batman and Robin - get reimagined as Serious and Angsty and Edgy in a Tough Cool Manly Brooding Way. This massively affects characterization for Bruce, Dick, and Bruce and Dick's relationship.

(I obviously love this change & love the tense Bruce-and-Dick interactions, but plenty of fans of the earlier fluffy comics really disliked the edgy retcons of Miller / Wolfman / Starlin / et al.)

The upshot is that post-Crisis is a period when you could have a recurring reference like a stuffed elephant, but you wouldn't have a stuffed elephant, not for Dick. I think a toy like that would be too cutesy / childish / effeminate to give a male character in post-Crisis, unless you were poking fun at him.

Now, you could probably let Tim have a stuffed animal, because Tim is sometimes cool but also sometimes a tryhard loser who is faking being cool and not entirely pulling it off (see e.g. the Robin comic where he practices tough-guy faces in the mirror, or the Teen Titans comic where Conner discovers his cringy Enya CD, or when he's fanboying over Connor and it's awkward, etc etc.). A stuffed animal would be deeply embarrassing, and you'd have to be careful to compensate by having Tim do something cool afterward - but Tim's character concept allows for "he's kind of a loser sometimes."

But Dick isn't!! In post-Crisis, Dick's a tough / impressive / "cool guy" character, the kind of guy anyone would want to be, even in the flashbacks where he's Robin, and even in the stories where he's more lighthearted than angsty. It'd be kinda lame for Dick to have a stuffed elephant, so he wouldn't. I feel like Dick would be more likely to poke fun at it if someone had one, like when he's making fun of Wally for liking the Hardy Boys. Dick could have a Batman action figure, at most, and if he had one he would have it ironically.

Basically: in post-Crisis, a male character hugging a stuffed elephant feels more likely to be a punchline to me, not something poignant. (Even with Tim, Tim could have an embarrassing stuffed animal, but he couldn't hug it when sad - that's too far. Maybe Booster Gold might do this. Probably he wouldn't, but spiritually, he would. Sorry Booster ilu! <3)

Instead, Dick instinctively deals with his inner turmoil like the TORTURED ACTION HERO he is: by punching things and brooding and yelling and joining the mob and sleeping on rooftops and going on obsessive secret missions and acquiring Angsty Stubble!! Just like Batman!

(Technically I don't know if Bruce ever joined the mob but you know he would.)

Anyway as you know this is my favorite continuity and I am poking fun affectionately, but uh, yeah sdfsfdsfs. No stuffed animals.

Post-2011 / Infinite Frontier / Wayne Family Adventures: stuffed animals, yes or no?

tl;dr it's in WFA! Probably not anywhere else, but it could be.

Post-2011 stuff tends to be cutesier overall, most of all in the current Infinite Frontier era. So I don't feel like this would be tonally out-of-line with IF comics. Taylor tends to go for more meme-y references rather than fanfic references, though.

So the obvious best fit is WFA, which is aiming for a rough approximation of Silver Age family-friendly vibes - wholesome, episodic plots, Teaching Good Moral Lessons For The Youth, etc. - plus lots of Easter eggs for fanfic readers and some comic references.

And look, here we are:

Aww.

Whew - that's everything I could find!

Anyway as you can probably tell, I LOVE the elephant, so this was a very entertaining rabbit hole to go down, thank you <3

#dick grayson #anyone with more info feel free to chime in & we can crowdsource <3 #i do think the toy elephant is awfully cute though <3 #total digression but i was thinking about it as i was writing:#i'm fascinated by the ways that the post-crisis batboys & their stories can intersect with 90s masculinity and all its issues with stoicism #and i'm pro-queering and gender-bending - 90s comics were a total boys' club so i think it's neat that transformative fandom isn't #but i do love 90s masculinity and All Its Issues too & one of the things i find compelling about the dick-tim-bruce trio #& especially dick's place in it - is the unspoken hierarchy whereby bruce is manlier than dick & dick is manlier than tim #and so dick's in the middle as this somewhat softer-character who aspires to be a harsher & more stoic & ultimate manly-man character #caught in the middle between robin & batman & what each role represents #and like. batman is both manhood & the only desirable thing to be AND ALSO it represents this immense narrowing of possibility #because so much of stereotypical masculinity is about reducing the range of emotions you're allowed to have or express #and dick is both incredibly conflicted about bruce AND wants to be just like him & by extension is conflicted about masculinity writ large #so a lot of dick's interactions with tim veer between trying on a frat-boy-ish 'I'm The Manly Guy' persona vs. giving up on it #or trying on imitations of Bruce's Batman persona but also trying to backtrack out of it bc he doesn't like how it feels etc etc #ANYWAY i think what i am trying to say is that if tim had a stuffed animal dick would be entertained & poke mild fun at him #and call him 'teddy' for the next hour or something while tim got increasingly defensive about how the teddy bear was steph's #and/or about how the teddy bear was OLD and tim doesn't even care about it and also WHATEVEr i'm above this #and to an uninformed observer this might look like bullying BUT ACTUALLY #this ritual would IN FACT be very reassuring to both of them + tim would feel WAY better afterward than if dick had ignored it #because by poking fun at him dick shows he still respects tim enough to tease him thus subtextually exorcising the threat of wimpiness #plus allowing tim to defend himself & demonstrate that he can take a joke so they've both reaffirmed their masculinity to each other #& they don't have to be scared of the teddy bear and all it represents anymore #however also afterward dick would have a brief nostalgic flashback to when he was a kid & had a teddy bear & feel weird about the memory #because he would be unable to articulate to himself that what he misses is a past when he allowed himself to be vulnerable #anyway this wouldn't actually happen in comics but it's what would happen in my soul. you know.#ask tag #zitka

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spiritofpassionfruit · 7 days

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A–Aventio TGCF idea?? Wherein Civil God Veritas Ratio meets the infamous Ghost King Aventurine during his first mission cuz cuz like— The "live for me" paralels?!? The one who has all the luck partner as well?!? The villain who was actually not the Villain this whole time!?!? The loving humanity a little too much it causes the downfall of a god?!?!?!?

Rant AU in the tags proceed with caution

#Okay to put it into better words:#Veritas having once being a prince wanted to give everyone the prosperity of knowledge and became a civil god in the pursuit of it.#Sadly this backfires in people using that knowledge for their own greed and creating civil wars within it as well as unleashing far more #Destruction upon the land. And the other gods didn't help Veritas in stopping that bc see that's what happens when people overshare info!!#So the aftermath is just pure chaos plus banishment from being a civil god and thrown as this god of war and plague.#800 years passes and he is seen to just still be doing the same things but I a simple term. Teaching people to read and count.#Often times taking up mission and doing research on new pathogens to help cure the sick that can't afford and somehow during a reading #Lecture he gets ascended back to godhood and everyone is like ??? And even he is like ???#Well he doesn't care much about it and just continues to do what he's always done. Except that once in a while he has to take a detour #Mission to deal with ghosts and other malignant spirits. And upon one of those recurrences he finds himself aquaintanced with #The infamous Ghost King Aventurine. Who is mostly feared in heaven due to having beaten the strongest and wisest at their own games. Even #When the odds where fully against him.#As for Aventurine.#His life was harsh but as the prince had given a lot to the people #Not just education but also free them of diseases and sickness. One of which had struck his sister. He liked the prince and wanted to #Follow in giving and protecting the prosperity of the former kingdom. But the good things did not last and his family was struck in between #The many wars that took place. No matter how much refuge Kakavasha and his sister sought no place was ever #Safe enough for them.#He watched the entire world go up in flames yet somehow he could hate the prince-god for it. But rather the people who had started to #Create weapons in his name. The rest of his years he spent it as a warrior slave and then when death reached him he couldn't even go to #The afterlife since he still held so much vigor and wanted revenge to all the people who had turned his land into ashes and his family #Into bones. That is why he became a mourning ghost.#(I didn't want the kakavasha story to be so centered on ratio like it is in tgcf. Because I think it will be fun for the two of them to #Not recognize each other at first after 800 years and then when they do. Rather when aven does he's full on: oh shit it's the cute prince—#As for who was the cause of the upheaval in the kingdom and the maker of the weapons. Idk I was debating there being more than just one #Antagonist to have pulled their strings in verita's kingdom as well as be the reason Aven's sister died. So he's more revenge seeking for t #And the genius society as civil gods just spoke to me it for so perfectly. Ling wen as Ruan mei? Yeah exactly.#ratiorine #Aventio #Dr ratio

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twinstxrs · 3 months

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thinking about kageyama’s “it’s the setter’s job to break the wall in front of the spiker” in reference to how kenma sponsoring hinata while he’s in brazil and onwards is effectively doing that on a financial level. once a setter always a setter.

#could talk about how the narrative purpose of every setter (at least in hinata’s story) reflects the idea of breaking a wall in front of him #for hours i think #i want to do a full manga read to fully think about that but #atsumu & hinata’s feeling that he needs kageyama. kenma & just the financial logistics of being able to go to brazil. oikawa & homesickness #obviously there’s more going on w/ all the characters but like. those 3 & kageyama (obviously) all have at least one big thing they help-#hinata overcome. kageyama has so many of these moments w/ hinata i’d have to rewatch & list them all but yea.#akaashi is also this but for bokuto. (bokuto is this for akaashi as well)#(& if we’re talking setters & spikers obviously hinata is that for kageyama. Obviously. they’re soulmates)#i know this is lowkey just me analyzing the concept of support which a team sport series is inevitably filled to the brim with #but with a lot of what i consider to be hinata’s big character moments… it’s always setters man. & that feels deeply intentional.#& takeda obviously but he’s the coach. that is his Narrative Purpose #i wonder if there’s something strong to be said about main characters positions within the team & their strongest overall narrative purposes #like ‘libero’ meaning free in italian & nishinoya & freedom being his Whole Thing. he goes to karasuno bc he likes the uniform!!#i’m curious if i took every character & took their position if i’d find a list of commonalities between their narrative purposes. idk!#but yea anyways i dislike dumbing down hinata’s relationships w/ his setters as like ‘omg setter harem’ as anything other than a light joke #but hinata & setters is such a big deal. almost all my favorite hinata dynamics are with setters i think & that’s bc of that importance #if anyone read this rant in the tags thank you for your time lol. happy birthday hinata i love you forever #haikyuu!!#haikyuu #haikyū!!#hinata shouyou #hinata shoyo #kozume kenma

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endrimer · 4 months

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i love the idea of little normal inheriting the doodler psychic connection somehow

#IM SO SRRORY IF THIS IS OOC. I AM SO SORRRRY… PELASE FORGIVE ME GODS #i want to explore theior dynamic more but. i fear it will be ooc……#sparrow looks a lot like my henry design. i feel like i should fix that but. i dont! want to!! it is funnier that way!!!#playign aroudn with other brushes in this too btw #i lvoe you random jing paint brush i got for free but. im going back to the defaults #studio pen my beloved #dndads #dungeons and daddies #normal oak swallows garcia #normal oak #sparrow oak #sparrow telling normal not to trust to doodler and that thing is NOT your friend etc etc etc #lark trying to figure it out so he can somehow kill the doodler through norm or somehtigng #it is all very scary!!!! normal is a little guy!!!!!#i think he would try to hide it probabyl. like oooo erm dood. left #sorry dad…. waaa…#and then he turns around and continues playing with dood (in secret)#i think hero knows but it letz normal be happy so shes very conflicted

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what-is-it-to-be-pk-esque · 5 months

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Ok I know I'm heavily biased here but like I kinda love that Astarion's romance is one of the few in this type of video game where you basically end up canonically unmarried and childfree in his "good" ending? Just travelling the world??

Like it's honestly the millennial dream lmfaoo cannot believe i chose what would undoubtedly be my favorite option, first try

#also love that he's basically atheist like ok thanks you made the man exactly coded to be my type #and the humor and beautiful curly hair is very much something my IRL partner has too so like... how can i resist #anyways not sure a lot of people relate cause i think a lot of people want that fairytale romance #even tho wyll is right there yall #but i love me an unconventional or nontraditional one!!#i'm TIRED of being married with children as the endgame pls let's not do it #also a lot of people seem into him being a dad and im like... how? why? where in canon did he ever lmfao #more power to ya if you dig it but i just dont see it being in character #like in DAI i loved cullen and my inquisitor getting married and having a dog #and they seem the type to wants kids one day. but Tav & Astarion? lol no #i just think it's neat #is this a hot take? i have no idea but i don't see it mentioned a lot as a new fan tbh #pls do not come at me you can enjoy whatever you like #i haven't seen the ascended stuff so idk if being his 'consort' is like being his bride #but i feel like overall it's not and the vibe isn't all that different in this sense #except that you're hosting evil parties instead of travelling :/#Astarion #bg3 spoilers #baldur's gate 3 #baldur's gate 3 spoilers #bg3 #also YEA he's nice to Arabella but you can tolerate certain kids without wanting one or being 'good parent' material #case in point: me lmfao #OKAY update i saw the AA stuff and yeah you're kind of implied vamp married and he does mention spawn as children 😫#but he also says in banter he won't make any other spawn??? so what is it dude #anyway that's also clearly the “bad” route and he doesn't seem as happy as unascended #who feels “truly free”#and if you're durge I'm pretty sure its even worse to consider having kids?? lol #but i digress #pk plays bg3

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cluescorner · 5 months

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I cannot imagine being a Damian stan right now. You've got both Zdarsky's bullshit (where he clearly doesn't give a shit about your boy) and The Boy Wonder (where Juni Ba clearly gives so many shits about your boy) coming out on the same day. The whiplash must be insane. I hope y'all get some nice warm soup for your efforts jfc

#damian wayne #damian al ghul #damian al ghul wayne #batman #batfamily #for all of the issues that come with having Steph as your fave having too much wild shit happening at once is never one of them #btw I quite like The Boy Wonder Issue 1. wow shocker an artist and writer who I have liked everything they've ever done #has once again written something that I am enjoying with art that makes me want to be part of its world.#it's almost like Juni Ba is really freaking talented or something #like I have some problems with it but it seems like many of those are part of the point. Damian is learning that his siblings are more #three-dimensional than he realized and that is part of this 'coming of age' story merged with fairytale #so I can't be mad at the oversimplistic defining of Dick and Jason and Tim until the conclusion of the series. that might be the point.#I hope that the series will address Steph as a Robin but if not then frankly it's not an issue unique to this series.#I'll be annoyed and disappointed but ultimately roll with it like I am with Babsgirl being here. There's too much good stuff here to get #hung up on shit that seems to be almost an editorial mandate at this point. at least that's where I'm at.#I am also very sorry that Chip Zdarsky is massacring your boy. he has 'X (Tim for him) is the best Robin so everyone else must suck' diseas #where a writer really likes one specific Robin and in trying to uplift them demeans all of the other Robins. instead of like...just writing #for that one character only or alternatively not demeaning the other characters in order to make his blorbo look good #it's wild because I actually think his writing for Tim is pretty solid. but he's not writing a Tim series. he's writing a Batman series.#and if you are going to write a Batman series and include other Batfamily members you need to actually write them well.#instead of assigning them like 2 personality traits while Tim gets to be a whole character #I accept that behavior in fanfic where I have lesser standards because it's fucking free. not a comic run that wants me to pay #tens of dollars in order to understand what the fuck is going on. he's been going for a while now it's gotta be a lot of money.#I can buy Steelworks with that money. I can see John Henry and Natasha Irons in a trade. Fuck you Chip.#it's why it takes such a special person to write a good ensemble story/a good Batfamily story. you have to be good at writing a LOT #of different characters. which I don't think most people are. I sure as hell am not. I can write maybe 3 at a time confidently well.#and you also have to give all of them at least SOME love or else people will be upset that you aren't focusing on their fave #and also the writing as a whole will suffer. Chip Zdarsky is a pretty good Tim writer. I'd maybe read a Tim solo written by him.#I would not read a story focusing on multiple characters that I like written by Chip Zdarsky. because every character who isn't Tim #is at least a bit weak/inconsistent/out of character INCLUDING FUCKING BATMAN. THE NO. 1 GUY MOST ARE HERE FOR

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poorly-drawn-mdzs · 1 year

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I'm sorry I let down my guard.

[First] Prev <–-> Next

#poorly drawn mdzs #mdzs #xue yang #xiao xingchen #God DAMN this scene was brutal. Season 2 episode 2 is almost nothing but misery and anguish #Helena by Nickle Creek does not quite fit the comic's vibe but it is absolutely a Xue Yang song so I linked it.#The change from “Helena don't walk away...(gentle)” to “HELENA. DON'T WALK AWAY (threat)” is fantastic.#And “Don't waste your pretty sympathy - I'll always be just fine”. Xue Yang core.#Okay now for the real meat. Disclaimer first: *I really like XY.* I think he's a great character. I think his actions consistently-#come from a place of deep trauma. While his reactions and actions put him in a villainous role he is still human about his hurt #and what I'm about to say is NOT intended to be a statement of causality or villianize a group of misunderstood people.#So with that said...Man oh man does Xue Yang have a lot of BPD traits. More that just 'character who is chronically manipulative'.#The impulsivity and emotional reactions and seeking stability makes him feel like he needs that control. What other choice is there?#The part that really gets me is how he *wants* to be safe and happy. But his past experiences tell him how thats impossible #He's the kind of person who goes 'if you don't like me then you better hate me for something substantial". All (pos) or All (neg)#''Love me entirely or Hate me. But don't you dare leave me or forget about me.''#Not at all comfortable saying 'BPD coded'. Im not a psychiatrist. Just that he has TRAITS. Feel free to disagree or add your thoughts.#ppl with bpd also are not a monolith and everyone has very different experiences. Xue yang is very complex. People more so.

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gender-luster · 3 months

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i need a spinoff of dead boy detectives about all the sad lonely gays the dbda left in port townsend (jenny, monty, the cat king)

#i mean. i guess there's still the possibility that jenny will follow them to london. but i dont think so #and you may be like 'what would that even be about?' well. jenny can see ghosts now. she lives in a town with a lot of ghosts with a LOT of #problems. AND the dbda were running an office out of her shop for several weeks. so it just makes sense for ghosts to continue to show up #and try and get their problems fixed. is jenny at all prepared to start solving ghost issues? no. would she try anyway? probably #and then there's monty who's a free crow for the first time in who knows how long and all the stories that could be told with him and his #journey.#and the cat king? he's just cat kinging. (also i rlly just want to see him and jenny interact)#anyways. netflix please. i need more of them #dead boy detectives #dbda #jenny the butcher #jenny green #monty the crow #the cat king

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necrotic-nephilim · 6 days

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How do you think bruce would react to a Robin pile situation?

oooh this is a fun thought. i think it depends *entirely* if you're working with a morally stable Bruce or a Bruce who's a little fucked up and dead dove-ish. somehow, i think it's actually more fun if it's a completely stable Bruce bc that adds so much more drama and issues if Bruce is deeply unsettled by the idea. if it was maybe just Jason and Dick or Jason and Tim dating that's sort of understandable. Bruce knows that while he may see them all as his sons (except Steph bc do know Robin pile will *always* include Steph for me and tbh Cass too as an honorary member. they're all going in the pile.) but he understands that doesn't mean they see each other as brothers. he respects the nuanced and complicated relationships scattered across all of the Batfam.

but if all of them are *dating*? or at the very least sleeping together? that raises a lot of logistical red flags. the most obvious one is the age gap of it all- at the biggest gap you have Damian and Dick who are an easy fifteen years apart, meeting when Damian is a kid. not to mention how many of them have tried to kill each other at some point. it shouldn't work and Bruce doesn't like that it does. Bruce has a history of wanting to control the relationships of the Batkids when he disapproves. and so he'd absolutely try to break them up. at first, he paints it purely as a logistical issue. saying it's smartest not to bring feelings into work and that this is dangerous. i think it's especially fun if this happens at a time when Bruce doesn't approve of Steph or Jason so that *also* plays into it, he doesn't want either of them near the ones he currently considers to be his family. he says he wants to protect them and wants to keep them safe. he tries to appeal to who he thinks would be more logical and listen to him the most. first Dick, and then when that doesn't work, Tim. and when neither of them listen, i *do* think Bruce would stoop to the low of trying to break them up by fabricating internal conflict between them, hoping to divide and conquer the weird polycule it's become.

while i don't think Bruce would be jealous in the sense he wants to be included, i *do* think he's wildly dislike the Robins having this close bond that makes them trust each other implicitly more than they trust Bruce. they will defer to each other before him and clearly keep things from him. he'd despise that. it's an inner circle he's not let in on and it makes him lose aspects of control over some of them, especially Damian who's the youngest and his son, who Bruce deserves the most control over. he would drive himself mad about it. at first for genuine reasons over the perceived fucked up nature of the relationship (even when each of them have confirmed that it is entirely consensual and they're happy) and to protect them. but he becomes so bitter over being ignored. they openly prioritize each other over him when the truth comes out because they see no point in hiding it. and i could definitely see Jason gloating about how he's back in the family whether Bruce likes it or not. Bruce would be beyond pissed about it. he's just never recovering. trying to stop them gets nowhere, even if he manages to cause some internal conflict.

eventually, Bruce would be forced to accept it for fear he would lose all of them. but he's *not* going to be happy about it and he keeps making side comments, hoping to get through to one of them eventually. it doesn't work, but he's definitely not going to stop trying. i also think on some level it would just disgust him a little bit in a visceral way, since they're his kids to him and he doesn't like to picture them in that way. esp when Jason or Steph lean heavily into PDA just to fuck with him. ass grabs, cuddling, sloppy kisses, the whole nine yards. Bruce will not have a moment of peace.

#necrotic answerings #robin pile #robincest #batcest #i do think fucked up bruce is also fun #but that answer wuold be more straight forward and expected #just. he creeps on them and tries to join and probably succeeds. the end <3 #it's fun but i find it more fun if he's just. grossed out by it #like he's trying so hard to break them up #and he can pretend all he wants but it's purely personal reasons and disliking that he's not in the inner circle #i'm so seirous about including steph in robin pile btw #AND DUKE #let them in on it.#i'd say maps too but i'll be honest i don't know enough about her to. care honestly i'm so sorry #and i dislike helena wayne as a robin (new-52 when i catch your ass) so i don't include her #and i love carrie but i think she should be kept to her own world and not forced into the main one #i dislike seeing “incorrect quotes” that include carrie bc like. why is she there. take her back to her world free her from these shackles.#but gods i adore robin pile #i usually include cass just bc it feels weird not to #it's the same energy as “cass isn't here bc she's in hong kong :) doing hong kong things :)”#like sure technically cass was in hong kong for a lot of the comcis but we all know why.#and cass wasn't a robin but she (and steph) aren't included in a lot of batcest and we all know why.#so i include her. i just think she deserves in on it.#let her fuck her brothers stupid <3 #i love the emotional conplexities of robin pile a lot #the smut is good. but so are the feelings of all of these characters are so chained together by this mantle #they just can't escape each other.#it's good shit.

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snowyh2o · 6 months

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Look, all I’m saying is that if Alastor was really just after manipulating Charlie like putty in his hands, he could’ve done so much more during their walk to Cannibal Town than just stand there bored. Instead of trying to break up Charlie’s relationship with Vaggie and paint himself as the “only voice of reason”, he takes her to Rosie to get her issues sorted and cleans his monocle.

Yeah sure, part of that is because has no interest in someone else’s love life but also. It’s not that hard to pretend to be interested? Offer some affirming hums here and there. Say something like “oh I completely understand where you’re coming from, Charlie. Why if she was lying about something as big as this, what else could she be hiding from you?”. Play into her insecurities, drive a wedge between Charlie and her biggest support. And even if it goes nowhere, and they mend their relationship, it’s not like Alastor wouldn’t be saying anything Charlie isn’t already subconsciously thinking. He could even play it off as “concerned friend”! There’s no reason not to have said something, if that was ever his goal in the first place.

Instead he indirectly helps Charlie work through her conflicting emotions and mends their relationship by way of introducing her to Rosie, someone Alastor must know is big on romance and offers phenomenal relationship advice if only through second hand exposure of having known her for so long.

Just like how Alastor doesn’t need her soul, Alastor doesn’t need “complete control over Charlie’s actions”, he doesn’t want a doll to puppet around, or to have her emotionally vulnerable and isolated. What he needs is Charlie to be supported, stable, and capable of making her own decisions, acting independently, and standing up against those that would oppress her. A mindless doll who can’t act on her own is worthless to Alastor.

Alastor says “[Charlie’s] filled with potential that I could guide”. And while he says it in a sinister way, while he’s clearly scheming something, I think he’s being honest about wanting to be the one to help Charlie reach her full potential. Whatever that potential may be, and why he wants to achieve it remains to be seen.

(But assuming Lillith is the one holding his leash, and he’s hoping Charlie will be the one to break it, then he’d need Charlie to be capable of standing on her own against her own mom, the person she’s closest to and has looked up to her whole life. She might have to do that regardless, considering where the season ended.)

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