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cantstayawaycani · 2 years ago

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I don't normally wade into this type of thing, (in fact Tumblr recommended this post to me like a dozen times before I finally read it) but I have to say, I love a well written argument, that cites sources to support said argument, especially outside of the original media in question. And doubly so when the cited supporting sources are direct quotes from the creators and architects of said media in question. It speaks to intention vs execution.

Shipping is not important. At all.

Well intentioned, well executed character and story is very important. Imperfect media is usually the result, despite intention, because there is no such thing as perfection. But here I find the intention closely matches the execution and the resultant film is, IMO, near-perfect. And that's a testament to Coogler and the skilled creators/artisans he had help him build this world and shape these characters with very specific intention. When people argue about things like "shipping" it seems to me that they often forgo a good faith argument based on something you can reasonably prove, and just go with feelings and perceptions. Which is fine. But let's call a thing a thing.

From this argument, made with supporting evidence cited from such credible sources of information, one thing makes a little more sense than several others. And I feel it's important to acknowledge that.

Sorry, had to nerd out all over this post. This is just a good argument.

Re: Namor x Shuri working from a storytelling standpoint

I stumbled on a post trying to give an analysis of how Namor and Shuri "don't work" from a storytelling standpoint. After reading several of the objectionable points made and realizing I've seen them all before, I felt like trying my own hand to exemplify why these kinds of criticisms against "Nashuri" don't actually work. I didn't directly reblog to avoid being convoluted or dogpiling, but I'll be responding to specific points throughout.

Direct quotes are in orange

Linked sources and further information are in green

Warning: This article has many layers, musings, and points. After all, it's essentially a master collection of material. If you just want to jump to a certain point, you can. There are subtitles for every point.

The Oxymoron of Improbable and "Non-Sensical" Story Writing

In the context of specifically Wakanda Forever's story and nothing else, yes: as of now, Namor and Shuri being a romantic couple does not make "sense."

However, there is no such thing as a ship that doesn't make sense from a story-writing perspective.

With your pen, reality can be shaped according to your whim, or elements can be bent to fit the mold of a given reality. Story-writing-wise, anything can happen, and anything can work with the proper execution. A good writer knows how to suspend the reader's disbelief and make the seemingly improbable, seem probable.

Namor and Shuri already have the ingredients for chemistry and compatibility as characters, which are the two essential requirements in relationships. The media they're in gives you the room to potentially address their circumstance, like reviving Ramonda (coming back to life is no foreign concept to Marvel) or building off of the concepts already there (e.g., the Ancestral Plane or "dead not meaning gone"). There are also AUs.

Saying otherwise is simply putting a cap on your creativity and demonstrates a sheer lack of imagination.

Why Do People Ship Namor And Shuri?

To answer this question, Namor and Shuri:

Have undeniably strong chemistry. That was the first thing that had people question what their relationship would be. You don't have to register this as inherently romantic, but they have chemistry nevertheless.

Deeply connected with and paralleled-equaled one another. Shuri opened up to only Namor about her true grief. With Ramonda, Shuri closed herself off. When her mask cracked, she lamented that if she sat and merely thought of T'Challa, she'd burn the world and everyone in it. The ancestral plane, tethered to her subconscious and emotional state, lit up on fire the moment N'Jadaka mentioned T'Challa. Yet... Shuri felt that she could be emotionally vulnerable to Namor, seeking solace and answers within him. She could not only think of but also talk about T'Challa with Namor. This is after Namor was, in exchange, completely vulnerable and honest to her, showing her his scars and his cherished nation. Both characters did things they wouldn't do with anyone else. They felt seen and heard by the other. That is a beautiful testament to the bond they were forging before uh, yeah.

Shuri was healing in Talokan. It is directly said in the script Shuri was better than she was before she left, but the movie let it be a "show, don't tell." We already established she was finally unveiling her grief to Namor, but Talokan was also an escape for her. Her behavior and attitude were a sheer contrast to how she was earlier in the movie. Shuri was shown beaming, marveling at, and practically glowing as Namor showed her his world. Approximately, she genuinely smiled 11 times in under 3 minutes. She forgot her worries. The tension rolled off of her and let herself go "with the breeze". Her admiration and sense of wonder made him smile too. She was taken care of, a shame that her reason of stay wasn't preferable.

Shared several purposefully intimate moments.

Look hot and are hot together. Argue with a wall.

Can be the strongest, most unstoppable MCU power couple to date.

Create a rich, ethnic, and main poc ship and representation between a black African woman and a brown-skinned indigenous man. That's not common at all, and the thought of their cultures being connected, becoming one through their union is hair-twirling inducing. The idea of them creating a new era filled to the brim with their respective cultures and identities together, with them learning from one another, is very interesting.

They have many, many classic romantic-fantastical tropes poured into the batter that is their dynamic. You may have heard the comparisons to Beauty and The Beast (say thank you, Riri!), Aladdin ("I Can Show You The World"), Peter Pan and Wendy (Namor is deemed of a "Peter Pan" archetype. "Peter Pan" lost his Wendy, who is Shuri in this case. See Inframundo.) and Hades-Persephone.

The only reason why they're on opposite ends is due to outer forces and unfavorable circumstances at work. There's something interesting about their nuanced tragedy. There's a fun intrigue to find a way to "fix" what seems broken beyond repair, through understanding, love, character development, and healing.

Have a romantic anthem: Con La Brisa is a tender love song specifically created based on the underwater scene between Namor and Shuri. Foudequesh revealed that the meaning of the song was showing someone the sun for the first time.

Additionally, Namor and Shuri having romantic chemistry is not baseless. It was initially toyed with. Though they decided to characterize their relationship a bit differently and focus on grief-shared trauma, elements were still left in to give their relationship complexity. The way they relate and the things they did gave romantic undertones you can't just pluck out. Micheal P. Shawver, a colleague of Ryan Coogler and an editor of Wakanda Forever, said this much when asked about the possibility of Namor and Shuri having romance in their cards.

Note how Ryan Coogler, a writer and director of both Black Panther, even apparently thinks that Namor and Shuri are not unsuited for one another even then.

You can also view the original script where Namor is described as "charmed" and "smitten" with Shuri. It's only natural people pick up the pieces purposefully left behind.

Clarification Notes

Before we jump into this, there are things you need to know.

Note 1: None of this is bashing or permission to bash Ramonda, Riri, Shuri, or Nakia. They were justified and operating under grief and dramatic irony if you look at it from every perspective. Currently, this is just clearing up Namor and Talokan's perspectives because that is what's being targetted and unceremoniously characterized, but everyone has a case for them.

Note 2: This doesn't mean you need to ship Shuri and Namor. It's explaining why some do and clearing up misconceptions about their dynamic as well as individual characters. Your takeaway should be this and valueable information on Black Panther, not a decree of what you should or shouldn't ship.

Positive and Negative Chemistry

"Positive" and "negative" chemistry is confusing terminology at best and doesn't exist at worse. It's either you have or lack chemistry. There are also two different kinds of chemistry: platonic and romantic.

When describing how characters wouldn't be compatible in a given relationship, you may be looking for the term, "compatibility".

Chemistry: magnetism, attraction, and natural connection. Compatibility: a more "logical" component: your degree of harmony and cohesiveness.

You can have chemistry without compatibility, and compatibility without chemistry. Healthy and long-lasting relationships have both.

Namor's view of Shuri

Namor does not view Shuri as an equal, despite their similarities.

Pause. Namor does view Shuri as an equal. Shuri is arguably the person he respects the most.

The idea That Namor-Talokan does not relate, respect, connect with, or even view Shuri-Wakanda as human directly goes against the meta-pillar theme of Wakanda Forever.

You said it yourself:

"these are fictional characters (who represent real-world dynamics)"

“We talked to so many experts and really made relationships with them, because there was a lot to go through,” says Beachler. “There are a lot of parallels between Africans and Latin Americans as far as the colonization of their communities and cities, the enslavement of their people, the lies that were told about their culture, the misinterpretation of their words, and the ways they were made out to look demonized in order to elevate a European country.”

Besides honoring Chadwick Boseman, motherhood, and the dead not being gone, grief, trauma, the effects of colonialism, and the connectivity between African-Mesoamerican indigenous culture are central points of the film. Namor and Shuri and by extension Talokan and Wakanda are explicitly supposed to relate and be equal to one another for this reason. You are supposed to struggle with choosing a side, and Namor is a complex antagonist or even anti-hero rather than an actual villain (An antagonist just opposes or challenges the protagonist in the context of the story, they're not inherently good or evil. Villians are inherently evil and with malice.) Their fight is supposed to feel wrong, intimate, and emotionally charged, unlike most generic action hero fights. They are natural allies, and therefore unnatural enemies.

Namor bent in ways he wouldn't have with anyone else.

This is why it's an in-fandom joke that he was whipped or smitten. What he says on his throne when waging "war", was "Máansa'ab u nej miis tin wich." Josué Maychi confirms that this means, "They passed the cat's tail in front of my face with the hope of an alliance."

"If you see cats, jaguars or panthers when they go hunting they wag their tails because it is a way of hypnotizing the prey, then that image is what happened to Namor, that someone did like that with the tail."

Namor virtually said he was hypnotized, but the Spanish and English translations didn't quite convey that cat-involved metaphor (although keeping the crux of his lament.).

Namor could have killed Riri the moment she touched Talokan grounds, but he showed temporary "mercy" because of Shuri and Shuri alone. He didn't need Shuri's permission nor did he have to communicate with Shuri. Riri was in his domain, Shuri did not really have much power there, yet he treated her as if she did.

"It goes back to the point of him never seeing Shuri as human or recognizing her feelings as valid."

Two of Namor's quotes in the movie alone prove this wrong:

"I know you wanted me to spare the life of the scientist (recognizing and acknowledging what she wants), but now you see what I have to protect."

"So you can understand why I need to kill the scientist."

He didn't need to seek her approval or give her the ability to negotiate with him, yet he did and on top of that dressed her in the finest silks fit for royalty, consistently trying to convince Shuri like her opinion mattered, and that he wanted her on his side. It wasn't that he didn't "recognize her feelings as valid," he just felt that, based on how many of their lives are at stake, he couldn't risk it (Movie quote: "I cannot risk that, princess...").

He was absolutely gobsmacked when she said, "Take me instead." He wouldn't speak then, uncharacteristically breaking eye contact. When he could finally speak, he couldn't answer her directly, his voice awkwardly raised an interval and suddenly, unnecessarily, speaking with his hands.

Shuri wanted to see Talokan, and Namor, the pessimistic isolationist who never let a surfacer step foot in Talokan, immediately caved into her desire. There was no reason for him to do that and it demonstrates an immense level of trust. He also, quite literally, showed her the keys to his kingdom. He waited until she was beside him, looked to see if she was watching him, and then did his hand sign in the rock to open the "doors" to Talokan.

As writer Joe Cole said in The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri demands him to make the right choice that was yielding, and he does yield to her, which wasn't something he'd ever consider in his hundreds of years of being alive.

Namor gives his beloved mother's bracelet to Shuri

Fen was Namor's beloved mother. Her memory is something he held dear to him. The bracelet he gave not only was the last piece of her left with him, but it directly signified his birthright as king, was a priceless national object, and was made with their sacred plant's fibers.

He gives it to Shuri twice. One immediately to hold when he sees she's attracted to it, two he ties on her (after receiving her non-verbal permission, another sign of respect) for her keeping as a "gift of gratitude."

Namor saw his mother in Shuri

Namor saw his mother in her highest state, induced by Shuri. She was unchanged, young, and in their homes, outstretching a hand to him as Shuri metaphorically did.

Namor paints the mural of their fight

in his personal hut no less, where he preserves their history and culture. He paints them entangled in a battle with neither side besting the other. She is the Jaguar-Black Panther, a revered, highly respected animal in Maya culture with connections to godhood, and he is a mere human, humbling himself in a sense. That speaks volumes, and it's furthered when he tells Namora that Shuri had every single reason to kill him. He also speaks very highly of her, stating she's the strongest person on the surface, of the strongest nation.

None of this makes sense AT ALL if he supposedly did not view Shuri as a respected equal, let alone "human." If he somehow doesn't see her as a "human", then he sees her as higher than.

Talokan's "Violence" to Wakanda's "Pacifism"

"Namor and the Talokanil, immediately resort to violence and war when they feel a threat from the surface world. But since no one knows they exist, this threat is hypothetical for now."

This is not true. Talokan has constantly been evasive with relocating being their immediate resort. In the film, Namor says, "Talokan will not move, again" for a reason. They didn't "feel" a threat, there was a threat. People found the Vibranium within their domain and were drilling to seize it. War was a later development after Shuri took killing Riri off the table, which is what Namor initially wanted to do (in the script, this is furthered, with him saying he'd prefer picking off one person to outright war.).

"A direct contrast to Ramonda and Shuri, who in the face of real eminent threats, resorted to peace and showed their aggressors mercy."

Ignoring the insinuation that Namor was not faced with real eminent threats when he was, there is a reason for that contrast. Remember that while Wakanda was being threatened, they have never been conquered or forced to move. They're confirmed less vulnerable than Talokan, who does not have shields and lives in the ocean. They can afford to reveal themselves. Talokan cannot, and they're collateral damage to Wakanda's choice of revealing themselves and the power of Vibranium to the world.

The beginning village of Talokan has been conquered and mass murdered before the rebirth into the blue people we see now, with their ancestral lands plundered and made into slave houses. Namor almost died and was sick in the womb because the conquistadors brought smallpox. His father who he never met died due to their disease. He witnessed countless treacheries, betrayals, and wars from the surface lands. Namor spent his entire childhood watching his mother grieve due to them. As a result, Talokan has a more pessimistic perspective compared to Wakanda's privileged optimistic one.

So yeah, Talokan isn't going to play patty cake with their active aggressors who are trying to plunder them. Nor should they, because Namor is proven right with America actively seeking to destabilize Wakanda under the guise of retrieving Riri (see the meeting Ross has with government officials), and the ending with Val.

Wakanda wants to delay inevitable war and minimize the loss across the board but will go to war if pushed, which is fair. Talokan is tired and ready to give the smoke, striking fast and hard to merely end what threatens them once and for all after centuries of patience and displacement. That is also fair.

"Namor, despite wanting Wakanda’s help with his mission, ultimately doesn’t view Wakanda with anymore sympathy than he does the rest of the world. He has made it clear that he hates the surface world and everyone in it, which includes the Wakandans."

You're right, he doesn't sympathize with Wakanda. There's nothing to sympathize with. He empathizes with them, a stronger feeling and sense of connection than sympathy. He admires Wakanda and feels a sense of kinship, maybe a bit of jealousy (Joe Cole). To him, Wakanda was a threat if they weren't on his side. Why?

A) Wakanda (unintentionally) compromised them by revealing themselves to the world and the power of Vibranium. Now everyone else, armed with that dangerous knowledge, is looking for it to wield it. Wakanda can more or less protect their Vibranium, claiming ownership of it when it's on their lands, they have the power to, and they're the ones who revealed it. But what can Talokan do? They'd be forcefully revealed in some way and be subjected to attacks just because they dared to also have Vibranium.

B) Wakanda is compromising them again by harboring Riri, who is the one source capable of the machine the FBI is currently chasing down. There is no guarantee Riri would stay with them (Riri is not their citizen, and America can easily use her as a means to undercut Wakanda and force them to either give vibranium or fork Riri over, so she can build the machine, and they'll get vibranium anyway through Talokan) or wouldn't rebuild her machine. The solutions Namor could fathom were either taking Riri out of the equation for sure (a case of killing one person and saving everyone else) or taking out the threat of those who seek to exploit her.

C) Wakanda was already shaking hands with nations that wanted to destabilize and plunder them, and will want to do the same with Talokan.

D) Wakanda is the only nation that can rival them that now also knows of their existence. If they're not allies with that information, that's dangerous and makes Talokan vulnerable.

With all things considered and understandably from Namor's perspective, there's no "in-between" here. You can't be "neutral." You either are with them or facilitate your own and their destruction.

This doesn't mean he hates Wakanda or Shuri. It is nothing he wants, but something he perceives he has to do for his people, as their protector, father, god, and king. In the script, this is only further exemplified, by his, "I don’t want it to come to this. But I will not hesitate."

Namor Killing Ramonda

His line of "You are queen now" showed that he was never willing to conduct business with Ramonda likely because she was the only person on the surface world who bested him when she lured him out of Talokan(...). He was simply looking for an excuse to get her out of the picture."

At that point, Ramonda threatened to reveal Talokan. Ramonda purposefully played decoy with him and sent in a war dog to infiltrate their nation and retrieve not only their national threat but the princess who has all of their secrets without a sense of closure. The result of this act was the death of two of his "children". Did you just gloss over that fact, because Ramonda didn't just "lure" him away? He wasn't throwing a fit because he was bested. People literally died? He was cradling a dying child in his arms?

Namor was "willing" to conduct business with Ramonda, proven by the simple fact that he approached Ramonda and gave her the shell to contact him. Namor went out to answer Ramonda's call in the first place when he could've just ignored it when he had what he wanted and more in Talokan.

Namor saying "You're queen now" doesn't at all connect to him not seeing Shuri as an equal. That doesn't make any sense. If anything that undermines your point, because before Shuri is officially crowned, he immediately sees her as the sovereign leader, much like himself.

He says "you're queen now" because Shuri is likely the queen now. It's simple math: Shuri is the heir apparent. There's no royal before her now that is leading.

"It's also another reason why he killed Ramonda with no hesitation despite knowing what he knew about Shuri"

Again, Namor did what he did with no hesitation or care if Ramonda is collateral damage because in his eyes, Ramonda betrayed him, he was acting as a vehicle of vengeance for two souls, and he was defending Talokan. When she stepped in front of Riri glaring him down, that was his final nail in the coffin (no pun intended, please, no pun intended.). It was never personal to him nor did he look at it as him killing Shuri's mom. He was playing the role of a protector and king in conflict with another royal, but of course, it's inherently personal to Shuri because that royal happens to be her mother.

Ryan Coogler confirmed it was not personal for him in the Disney+ movie commentary, Tenoch Huerta says killing the queen was never in his initial plans, and Namor says this himself in the script, explaining he did what he did because the queen "betrayed" him with not only a guard, but a child dying as a result when Shuri was never in danger ("you were safe in my care").

Recklessness With Grief

No, Shuri did not have a better handle on how she externalizes her grief until the final of the movie.

"She recognizes that even though she is angry at T’Challa’s death, the rest of the world doesn’t deserve to feel the extent of her wrath."

That's not at all what she recognized at any point. "It will not be these clothes, I'll burn. It will be the world. And everyone in it."

"Even when Namor does kill her mother, she rightfully directs her anger at him."

At the expense of her people's safety and risk of eternal war. She tells M'Baku straight up that nothing else matters except what she wants, and she wants Namor dead. She threateningly pointed a finger, giving M'Baku no choice and leaving him with the command to help her in her endeavors, even if it meant sending them all to their watery graves.

Nakia: "If you go to war for vengeance, it will not fill the hole left from your loss. It will only grow larger, and it will consume you!"

Shuri: "It already has."

With every blow she landed and exchanged with Namor, we cut back to Wakanda receiving blows and being backed up into a corner.

Namor and Shuri were on collision courses where they were destroying themselves, each other, and their people by not handling their grief properly, being consumed by their vengeance, and committing destructive actions ignited by their pain.

Shuri just later had the strength to break that cycle by recognizing what he said to her back in Talokan ("broken leaders"), their connectivity, and shared traumas. She saved them both and quietened Namor's own flames in the process.

"Sure, she has some outbursts at Nakia and M’baku, but she never really alienates them."

Do not downplay the fact that Shuri is dangerous and was not healthily dealing with her grief, but instead was on a path of destruction. Ryan explicitly states that Namor shares this with Shuri: they're both trying to process and similarly struggle grappling with their grief.

Why else do you think Ramonda took Shuri outside to touch grass and do a ritual? Shuri was not ok. From the moment her beloved brother died, she was not ok. She was not magnanimous to the world. She was angry at it. She thought that there was no point in the Black Panther mantle or herb when T'Challa isn't there. As M'Baku even pointed out, she buried herself in her technology as a coping mechanism, which she ought to stop.

Shuri does alienate Nakia. Not only does she snap several times and harshly shove Nakia off of her after she took the herb, but it's also shown at the beginning of the movie she's ignoring all of her calls. In the script, she explicitly considers Nakia dead, immensely angry she missed T'Challa's funeral.

She doesn't listen to M'baku, but consistently tries to push him and his wisdom away during Ramonda's funeral. She even pushed away and tried closing herself off with Ramonda in the lab and river scene.

Namor's Desire

"All he wanted to do was push her to the extremes of grief so she would become reckless as she was."

Namor's true desire was safety for his people. He didn't want to move again or have to change who they are to survive. Namor later had a genuine desire for an alliance with Wakanda, a nation he canonically admires. Namor didn't want to "push her to the extremes of grief to become like him" because she already was like him. He just wanted to channel their shared feelings of reaping "destruction" to the common enemy.

“I think that a lot of the emotion that I was trying to put into it [Talokan] was this idea that Namor is not wanting to move his people again,” says Beachler. “So there is also, this sense of grieving, even there, of this idea of being encroached upon by humans, who are somewhat inconsiderate of them.”

"Instead you see a mutant emerging not out of genetics, but out of the crucible of oppression. Whereas mutants in the comics are born, in Wakanda Forever, they are made. And that history isn't the side story, it's the entire story. It explains Namor's rage, his desperation, and the path he takes which eventually leads to a collision with Wakanda."

It was never a case of Namor only loving and can love his people while hating everyone else, seeing them as inhuman. Namor was prioritizing what he loved the most above what he may also like, admire, or empathize with. He was fulfilling the role given to him he was forced to take from the moment he was born.

"I mean, “no love” is literally his name."

Let's slow down a bit and mayhaps rethink a little on using the meaning of his alias "Namor" as a point about him being loveless, no? That was a "name" given to him by a racist, slave-owning Conquistador priest who also called him, "son of satan" all the while he was burying his mother, the only and last immediate family he had. Namor took that alias to empower himself and take away the sting. He clearly does have love when all of his life he has been a selfless agent for his people. He thought a single or two lives were worth war over. Yes, he explicitly said it was to convey he had "no love" for the surface, but there is context to that.

"Wanting to destroy the whole world, funny enough, including other Mayan descendants who were enslaved or colonized"

When Namor burned down the Hacienda, slaves ran free. Only the Consquisdators were killed. The village elder relayed that they know of Namor's existence and were able to live with that knowledge. The only ones who died were the ones who sought him out with ill intent. The script also featured the factoid of Namor saving the elder and her husband from drowning on their wedding night, if that's worth anything. In the movie, he doesn't want to include Wakanda in the mix of the nations they're at war with either.

Clearly, he is discriminatory with who he'd kill. Who said he'd include Mayan descendants that were enslaved and colonized? The last time I checked, the only person who said anything about burning everyone was Shuri.

Namor: "It is no longer about the scientist. For centuries, the surface nations have conquered and enslaved people like us. Over resources. Since the day I buried my mother, I have prepared my people for the time they would come for us. And that machine? Is the sign that the time is now. I need to know if Wakanda is an ally, or an enemy. There is no in-between."

Shuri: "So you plan to wage war on the entire world, and want Wakanda to help you?"

Namor: [leans in and nods slightly]

Shuri: "That's madness!"

Namor: "There isn't a nation that wouldn't plunder Wakanda if given a chance. If we make an alliance, we can protect each other by striking them first. Then, when the threat of these nations have been eliminated, the scientist will be returned to Wakanda."

Namor wanting to remove the teeth from the lion's mouth and hitting first isn't the same thing as destroying everything and anything. Mind you, he is being chaotic, but he clearly has a concentrated target. Don't get it twisted.

Namor's Regret

It is suggested that Namor in particular felt regret and dislike for the situation in interviews, script, and in-film.

A) Namor is seen pensively on his throne, touching and cradling the shell phone as he awaits contact.

B) Namor's, "It could've been different."

C) Interestingly, Ryan and Joe Cole corroborated in The Movie Report panel interview, more regret was in every blow exchanged. Namor in particular did not want to exchange a fatal blow until he was pushed to impale Shuri on the rock in a desperate attempt to his life.

Equaling and Relating

Relating to someone is different from equalling someone. Out of all who were listed, whether it was Peter Parker, Riri Williams, or Namor, Namor is the only one out of those that is explicitly and purposefully depicted as equalling and relating to Shuri.

Namor And Shuri

The reasoning given for how Shuri works paired with Peter Parker or Riri Williams strongly applies to Shuri with Namor, so operating under the same logic, they largely work too.

"What makes both of these pairings work to a degree is the idea of them being equal in some regard(...) They clearly see each other as equal. They more or less agree on a common enemy and how to deal with said enemy, with morals and values that more or less align."

They do agree on a common enemy. That's literally half of the premise for Namor proposing an alliance where they protect one another. The problem just was how they go about handling things. Tragedy, trauma, and dramatic irony unfavorably played factors.

Otherwise, they're practically the same, and are now on the "same page". Their morals and values aren't far off either. Wakanda and Talokan are eerily similar, whether it be in having spying channels, an isolationistic approach, finding jurisdiction wherever they feel it (aka, if it regards and threatens them), only wanting to protect what they love, embracing-involving their culture-traditions, being environmentalists, and using defensive-offensive means if provoked by a perceived threat.

In visuals alone, they took great care to portray Shuri and Namor as Parallel Characters.

The "boy without love" and the "child who scoffs at tradition." They do have a few healthy differences (I'll save that for another article), but they are equal and deeply relate.

As said on The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri became the Panther god (the Black Panther is canonically Bast's avatar), while he is the god of his civilization. They're both royals and leaders of their own nations. Said nations are sister nations, both having the power of vibranium and the highest levels of advancement. They are both broken and with a shared trauma etched deep in their hearts. They both have a righteous, divine fire and an acute sense of avenging. They both were haunted by similar grief and pain that pushed them to seek solace in one another.

Namor is described as lonely and with loneliness by Ryan Coogler, and that's exactly how Shuri felt in the beginning as well (see her Interlude), and unfortunately, later in the movie after Ramonda "dies" (but in the end, it's revealed that Ramonda, like T'Challa, is not gone.). They brought innovative technology and a new era of living to their people. They share the same love languages: acts of service and gifts.

There was an entire montage near the end of the film showcasing this.

Riri Williams

Riri Williams relates to Shuri in a sense of being young black women whose intelligence and talents aren't always respected by their elders. They can also relate to their fathers being murdered (if they take a page out of comics for Riri, see Ironheart #9) or the loved ones that taught them what they know being ripped away from them. Maybe they also know about diffusion too as geeks, but it stops there.

Riri, like Peter, is a teenager (19 years old) new to college (the same college Okoye states is the equivalent of a Wakandan elementary school), trying to grapple with her emerging life and school. Shuri is a princess of the most powerful nation and head of Wakandan Technology. She completed the journey of school and became a college assistant at the age of 13. Wakanda Forever was Riri's debut and entry into the game. Wakanda Forever was Shuri, who is already a non-teenaged adult at this point, journeying through her womanhood and immense grief. Shuri is not new to the game, having been in countless wars and accumulated countless experiences Riri has yet to touch.

Throughout the film, Shuri acted as the voice Riri didn't have that Namor would hear, largely due to T'Challa's influence. At the end of the film, Riri invites Shuri to a basketball game. Shuri says no, prioritizing her duties and having a full plate compared to Riri's less uncomplicated, lighthearted one. This alone highlights their differences in placement and mental space.

Big sisters do not "equal" their younger siblings. They guide and protect, having some level of authority and experience over them.

And That's Perfectly By Design

Riri and Shuri are not equals and have noticeable divergences where one cannot ever relate to or feel what the other does. Shuri won't know how Riri feels the need to prove herself as a black woman in a society where black people, black women, are given the shorter end of the stick. Shuri doesn't know anything about how it is for African Americans and law enforcement. Riri won't know the privileges or how it feels like to carry the burdens Shuri does to the extent she does. Riri does not entirely relate to Shuri's grief either. Riri was a fish out of water who constantly wanted to go home despite the beauty and safety in Wakanda. They belong to two different worlds.

It is great that they have these differences because, in the words of Dominque Thorne, they can learn from each other. Their relationship in the film is contextualized as Shuri perceiving Riri as her reflection and then taking on a mentor role. Riri is, in Letitia's words, a reflection of T'Challa's choice. There are several parallels between Riri-Shuri and T'Challa-Shuri. It gives Shuri more of a personal incentive and investment in the outreach program her brother enacted. T'Challa had the connection, learning experience, and realization of the Lost Tribe and their struggles through N'Jadaka. Shuri now has that with Riri, but positively! Riri also can offer a breath of fresh air every now and again, fulfilling the chemistry she had (bubbly, plucky younger one) with T'Challa (the more composed, older, responsible one).

Whether you want to mold and configure this into a romantic dynamic, is up to you. The point is that yes they relate, yes they do have chemistry, but no, Riri and Shuri aren't equals.

Peter Parker

Hypothetically, Peter relates to Shuri in their intelligence (although I'd argue Shuri is smarter, Shuri's probably smarter than everyone), but that doesn't at all suggest they'd have the same interests. It doesn't work like that.

Peter (2001 baby) is younger than Shuri (1997-1998). He is just starting college. Shuri is around 22, 23 years old due to the snap. She was 19, 20 in Infinity War. Peter was 16. It's not a big age gap, but I wouldn't say they're peers. Age proximity doesn't indicate relatability either, especially if the maturity levels and experiences differ.

However, I will say, I think Peter and Shuri can relate to being orphans that do feel lonely (although Shuri lost and later gained family, Peter is left off completely alone), going through personal dark arcs, and suffering immense pain that changes the trajectory of their lives. They used to be more lighthearted, but now were forced to grow up and their perspectives darkened.

That's about it though. They aren't on the same wavelength or of the same caliber when it comes to their types of threats, challenges, and predicaments. Namor could entirely relate with her being another nation of vibranium of a culture the other nations seek to destabilize, destroy, or conquer, as well as someone with a similar depth and sense of grief. Riri could relate as a black woman living in America (lost tribe) who'd know a thing or two about persecution and was thrown into the mix between the Talokan-Wakanda conflict. Peter?

This isn't factoring in their standings either, with Shuri being an heir apparent and leader of the strongest nation on the surface with Peter being "your friendly (and now depressed) neighborhood Spiderman" that occasionally gets thrown outside his payroll.

Peter and Shuri can probably relate and it's easy to assume they'd have chemistry and may do a little chemistry together. But they do not equal either.

In Conclusion

Yes, ship and let ship. These are all great fictional characters with compelling dynamics. Shipping is largely for fun and often depends on the person's taste.

Looking at this from a perspective of a writer and storyteller, there's no such thing as it "not" working or "making sense" unless you have, excuse my language, shit and uninspiring writing.

#q'ing likes #nashuri #shuri x namor #a good argument #i did read that other post #raised an eyebrow #then moved on #as op said ship who you want #my nerdy little heart just actually really appreciates this breakdown #because you essentially have here a re-statement of the intentions for character and story from the minds and mouths of the creators #trust ryan coogler #trust hannah beachler #trust the experts they hired to mold and shape the thing with their expertise #for one because the BP stories are arguably the best told and best made in the mcu entirely #the bp films are the only ones with enough critical clout to be recognized outside of nerd circles as an excellent piece of art #ryan knows what he's doing #ignoring who you choose to ship from a story and character pov there was very specific intention here #it's OK if you want to perceive things differently to suit your own preferences #but let's call a thing a thing #and let's respect the creator's intentions #hell my favorite ship is attoye and we can't feasibly argue that that was intentional from the creator's pov #but that doesn't matter in fandom ultimately #that's the point of shipping #so turning it into an argument about what makes sense kind of doesn't make sense #because it's fandom #none of it makes sense over here buddy #and NO i am not saying ryan intended for us to ship nashuri that's rediculous #i'm saying ryan intended for these two characters to make sense as characters who compliment and support each other's arcs #they make sense in any way you choose to categorize as two sides of the same coin by design #that's all

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namor-the-submariner-dot-net · 2 years ago

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Monday MCU

Hannah Beachler, the Oscar winning production designer of both Black Panther and Wakanda Forever, shared pictures of the design bibles she created for those shows. The Talokan Bible is not pictured, but of similar length.

Needless to say, Namor and Talokan fans were appreciative and entreating, hoping for publication of this holy grail of Talokan lore. Whereupon Beachler said:

So, fire up your POLITE demands / entreaties to Marvel, Disney, Random House, on social platforms and snail mail if you want to see the Production Design Bibles published.

#Namor #Sub-Mariner #Talokan #MCU Namor #Hannah Beachler #Wakanda Forever #Books #Monday MCU #Monday

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wakandaiscoming · 2 years ago

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Reminder, Ta-Nehisi Coates is doing an official podcast about Black Panther: Forever. Until very recently there was just one episode up, mostly about Chadwick's death.

But there's some good stuff for nerds who like this movie, and people are coming back to it this week.

#ta nehisi coates #ryan coogler #black panther: wakanda forever #chadwick boseman #ruth e. carter #ludwig goransson #angela bassett #hannah beachler #dominique thorne

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namor-shuri · 2 years ago

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Marvel Studios Assembled & Wakanda Forever Podcast: Namor/Shuri + Tenoch/Letitia Moments

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Marvel Studios Assembled: The Making of Wakanda Forever [available on Disney +] [w/ time stamps to follow along]

▻ The whole cast comforted and gave Letitia a group hug at San Diego Comic Con as she broke down [Tenoch kissed her shoulder] [0:27]

▻ “We know what Black Panther is but what makes it a Black Panther movie? If we were to do another one….how would audiences recognize it?” - Ryan Coogler [Director] [5:44]

▻ We learn that Namor’s character was discussed to be in Black Panther 2 while the first movie was being written. “In the comics, the two worlds have a great rivalry” - Joe Robert Cole [Screenwriter] [13:25]

▻ Ryan was interested in Meso-American culture for the Talokanil and “…upon research it became more clear that the people of the Yucatán made a ton of sense.” - Ryan Coogler [Director] [14:40] They wanted to give Namor a culture/background different from the comic book version [a white man]. “Their [Mayan] artwork and their advanced agriculture…all of these things that they accomplished, it was a perfect palette for us to delve into.” - Joe Robert Cole [Screenwriter] [16:40]

▻ Namor’s costumes and headpieces are curated from post Yucatec Mayan culture roots. “We used a lot of kelp and things to make the headdress and hand wove his cape, but we kept it pure to what he looked like in the comics.” - Ruth Carter [Costume Designer] [17:50]

▻ Ryan and Hannah Beachler [Production Designer] show us the set of Namor’s cave and explain the time/labor that went into creating this elaborate set. Ryan points to the mural painting of Namor and the Black Panthers fight. “This one’s my favorite one” - Ryan Coogler [Director] [22:25] We learn that the style of art is “Bonampak”

▻ Letitia had to learn how to swim for her role, along with the majority of the cast. “I struggled with it. Ryan called me and he was like ‘Tish, can you swim?’ I was like ‘Sir, sir, I’m in the lab. What more do you need from me coming out of that lab?” - Letitia Wright [Shuri] [26:06]

▻ All of the water scenes were half filmed under water, called “wet for wet”, and filmed outside of the water, called “dry for wet” scenes. The exosuits [Shuri is shown wearing one when exploring Talokan] were real suits that were also filmed underwater and were about a million and a half dollars each [explained by Chris Denison, Stunt Coordinator] [29:40]

▻ A clip of Letitia Wright’s “Screen Test (2016)” from the first Black Panther is shown [41:54] and we learn that Dominique Thorne [Riri Williams] also auditioned for Shuri’s role a while back

▻ The cast had differing emotions/opinions than Ryan about the decision to kill Queen Ramonda [played by Angela Basset]. “When I read that Ramonda was going to die by the hands of Namor, I was very upset. I think I almost cried on the phone to Ryan.” - Letitia Wright [Shuri] [43:43] Ryan and the writers felt her death would be a big “motivator”/ transformative moment in Shuri’s development and the eventual break down of her character to become the Black Panther [her arc]

▻ Ryan supported and pushed Letitia during the whole process of becoming the Black Panther to do her best work and continuously reminded her of who she was and what she was capable of when stepping into the role. Letitia wished Chad could have passed the torch to her himself to do it [46:02] + [55:03]

▻ [Referring to the making of Shuri’s Black Panther suit] “We were working with the design language of silver being representative of T’Challa, gold being representative of T’Chaka, and the little bit of where Killmonger’s coming from…We’re essentially taking those two elements and combining them.” - Ryan Meinerding [Head of visual development] [46:58]

▻ “Shuri vs Namor. We put alot into that fight.” - Aaron Toney [Fight Coordinator] [49:59] We see that a lot of the BTS of their big fight on the desert were shot with different individual sets with Tenoch, Letitia and stunt actors, separately and together. “I’m so proud of it. Shuri’s looking amazing, Namor’s looking amazing.” - Letitia Wright [Shuri] [50:27] Their fighting styles are explained to be very different, where Shuri is more calculated and Namor is more in his body. “With Namor, when it came to fighting styles, I pulled from….cultural aspects like Lucha Libre…asian cultures…I pulled from a style called Baji.” - Aaron Toney [Fight Coordinator] [50:49]

▻ “Processing in a way of expressing her pain and fury towards Namor, she thinks that’s going to be satisfying to her soul and it’s not….I think that’s a beautiful way to complete that arc, to realize that my brother wouldn’t do this, my mother wouldn’t want this for me….We see Shuri become a woman in her own right.” - Letitia Wright [Shuri] [53:00]

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Wakanda Forever: The Official Black Panther Podcast [Hosted by Ta-Nehisi Coates]: Chapter 5 w/ Letitia Wright, Tenoch Huerta, Dr. Gerardo Aldana [available on Spotify]

▻ “What does it mean when Wakanda and Talokan give us a beauty created not to justify enslavement but to celebrate freedom?” - Ta-Nehisi Coates [Host]

▻ Tenoch continues to put the spotlight back on indigenous communities/culture and does not claim to be apart of their experiences. “I don’t practice the culture so it is impossible to name myself indigenous….I’m not pretending to be something that I’m not…I’m just trying to honor my ancestors.” - Tenoch Huerta [Namor]

▻ A fan went to the movies with his Mayan grandma and she began to translate scenes herself while watching the film with him. “The Mayan group in LA said it [the character’s Mayan in the movie] sounds beautiful. You have an accent, it sounds good! They were happy with it.” - Tenoch Huerta [Namor]

▻ “Why are these two groups [Wakandans and the Talokanil] fighting each other? Why can’t they get together and go beat the colonizer?…I am a huge Black Panther fan but I was sitting there and found myself rooting for the Talokanil!” - Ta-Nehisi Coates [Host]

▻ Letitia was bullied in school for her appearance when she was growing up (ex. her size, being African, etc) “I kind of let that go…I talked myself out of the idea that I should be like anyone else.” She found comfort/ amusement in going viral on TikTok. “It’s definitely flattering but I’m really shocked…I’ve never been crushed on before in school…As a black woman, I’m moving into a space where I’m finally being called beautiful but I didn’t wait for them [the media/world] to tell me that at first. I told it to myself.” - Letitia Wright [Shuri]

▻ “This is the highest grossing movie with the lead character as a black woman and it’s you [Letitia]. How does that feel?” - Ta-Nehisi Coates [Host]

▻ “The love that Shuri has for T’challa is the love that Letitia has for Chadwick and that’s intertwined.” Letitia shares her initial hesitancy about doing the film without Chadwick after his passing and taking on the mantle as Black Panther. “I see it as I’m a vessel. I’m a trusted vessel that’s here to honor my brother.” - Letitia Wright [Shuri]

▻ Letitia laughs about fun moments they had on the set of Wakanda Forever. “He [Ryan Coogler] would say Namor and the Black Panther are having a conversation. It’s a big movie. Turn your phones off!” - Letitia Wright [Shuri]

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imperiuswrecked · 1 year ago

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It's the end of July, so I hope it's OK asking. a Youtuber I know is doing a series about depictions of Atlantis, and of course, wants to talk about Namor. But he's (and I quote) "struggling to find a definitive comic arch or graphic novel to go with." Do you have any suggestions? (I apologize if you've been asked this before, I'm recovering from a sinus infection and don't have the energy to trawl your blog)

Always alright to ask, it's just been taking me some time to reply to stuff so thank you for being patient, I appreciate it. I hope you have recovered from being sick by now and even if you trawled my blog(s) you wouldn't find all the information you needed because I haven't spoken about every aspect of Marvel's Atlantis in depth and I mainly complain and moan about Marvel being stupid and not world building enough. lol. The wiki gives a linear explanation of Atlantis if you need hard facts and summaries but my view on Marvel's Atlantis is that it's a total mess.

As of my current count there are 8 origins/histories of Atlantis. However I'm sure Marvel will squeeze in a few more that make no sense and totally ignore everything that comes before it in the future. I'll discuss the history and different origins further into this post.

That youtuber is struggling to find a definitive arc on Marvel's Atlantis because there is no definitive arc or series of comics about Atlantis, unlike DC's Atlantis Chronicles (1990) which takes time to set up the history of DC's Atlantis in a concentrated mini series, Marvel's Atlantis is literally an afterthought. Even Nate Moore stated how little worldbuilding there is for Marvel's Atlantis.

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever's Producer; Nate Moore; “But in thinking about from a filming standpoint, what’s interesting about publishing is Atlantis feels very Greco-Roman, vaguely drawn, and Namor’s backstory isn’t as interesting as you want it to be. And this is from somebody who’s read all the Namor books. It was like… it doesn’t have the depth that it could have."

I agree and disagree with Moore, while Atlantis's world building severely lacks depth in the comics, Namor's backstory is very original and very interesting. By backstory I literally mean that, his origin story, his mother and father, grandfather and scheming cousins, going to the surface world, meeting the Human Torch, joining the fight against Nazis, etc., if it wasn't so interesting to see then the character wouldn't have endured all these decades. However Moore speaks about Atlantis in this way to explain why they decided to change Atlantis to Talokan, and as you know I'm very pleased with Mcu!Namor & his world, and welcomed those changes because it finally put the work into building Namor's world. Someday I hope we get to see that 400 page Talokan bible that Hannah Beachler created for Wakanda Forever.

As I mentioned in my "Namor was never white to begin with" meta, Atlantis was introduced in Timely/Atlas/Marvel Comics before Aquaman's Silver Age Retcon. However breaking down the creation of Namor and his people goes a long way into explaining why Atlantis wasn't really focused on in Namor's world and why the change in the movies was necessary to bring Namor back to his original non Atlantean origins.

Bill Everett was a nautical enthusiast, and he had a fascination with Antarctica. In Saga of the Sub-Mariner (1988) Roy Thomas wrote several segments that feature Bill Everett's thoughts, and one important factor is that Everett never intended for Namor to be from Altantis to begin with.

It's interesting, then, that you didn't call your submerged world "Atlantis". Everett: No, I didn't want to, because Atlantis to me was another world, a world that existed and I believe it still does, somewhere. I don't think it's alive, but I think the remnants and relics are there somewhere. I think it was a continent that did exist at one time. But the idea of the submerged continent came from Atlantis.

Subby, Bill, & Me by Roy Thomas (Saga of the Sub-Mariner (1988) #5)

So much of Namor's creatioin is drawn from inspiration; Tha-Korr's City (Antarctic Submerged Kingdom) is inspired by the myth of Atlantis. Namor's wings are a nod to the statue of Mercury/Hermes. "Namor" is "Roman" spelled backwards. Sub-Mariner comes from "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" by Samuel Taylor-Coleridge. If you want more of Everett's history/interviews then I recommend reading Saga of the Sub-Mariner (1988), and Fire & Water; Bill Everett, The Sub-Mariner, and the Birth of Marvel Comics by Blake Bell.

Saga of the Sub-Mariner (1988) #8

Namor's underwater world was never meant to be Greco-Roman even though Everett draws inspiration from the idea of it. The Greco-Roman Atlantis of Namor's world was added after Everett left the comics. However it was only truly reinforced and expanded by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee in the Silver Age Fantastic Four comics.

January 1949 - Sub-Mariner Comics (1941) #31 - The first time Namor mentions that he and his people are descendants of Atlantis. In context Namor is telling Betty a Tall Tale about how gravity was invented and makes mention of his ancestors from Atlantis, by the end Betty is left with wondering what was truth or fiction from Namor's story, however this was the only time Namor makes mention of Atlantis in those early years.

In the Silver Age Namor's world is revamped, the people are no longer green and blue, and whatever colors the printers would decide, now they were a solid blue skinned race of Atlanteans from the lost city of Atlantis that sank during a Great Cataclysm. However if you read the first reappearance of Namor in Fantastic Four (1961) #4 you notice he never says Atlantis, only "My Undersea Kingdom"

Marvel's many Atlantean Origins:

Fantastic Four (1961) Annual 1 we finally get the first origin. Namor, declares to the Fantastic Four that he is from the Empire of Atlantis, and later while Namor is disguised as a human scientist, he tells the world the origin of Atlantis, about his father and mother, and his own birth.

Origin #1: The Atlanteans were a sub-sea race of homo-mermanus, nomads who were born and lived in the sea, and they developed as surface nations do, they settled, built great cities, their people developed and created sciences and weapons, etc. They were a Myth to the surface world.

As Namor's stories continue in Tales to Astonish and The Sub-Mariner, you see the cities are built and the Atlanteans are all dressed as an undersea fantasy Greco-Roman style, they worship Neptune as their god, and speak in a very archaic manner.

In the 70's Bill Everett came back to work on Namor comics in The Sub-Mariner series, however he was struggled with his health due to his life long alcohol addiction, he had quit drinking years ago but his health continued to decline until his death in 1973, and because he was working on Namor comics at the time he wasn't able to complete the required number of pages Marvel wanted, so after the main story Marvel had small mini stories of Namor's youth, and a later a segment called "Tales of Atlantis".

The Sub-Mariner (1968) #62-66

Origin #2: Atlantis was a Island Nation that was caught up in a war with Lemuria, the Deviants & Celestials, which leads to their country sinking into the sea, where later a young water breathing warrior stumbles across the lost city of Atlantis. The warrior has a vision of what Atlantis was, and what it will be, and then decides to go back to his people, the homo-mermanus, and make them give up their nomadic ways to settle in the sunken city and create an empire.

Now this is where things get confusing and never stop being confusing for any fan of Namor's comics. Why? Because Marvel does not have all of the Atlantean History in a neat and tidy comic series like DC does, every instance of Atlantis and its history is split up among several comics series and books, and Marvel confuses things further by including Conan's Era, the Hyborian Age, which is meant to be in very distant past and they have Namor's Atlantis be of that Atlantis and there's Celestials, and Deviants, and Lemurians, and Amazons and on and on. It's a soup of "whatever" thrown in.

This would confuse any reader because so much of the Atlantean history is contradictory. No reader is going to know they need to read Conan to get a backstory on Atlantis before the Fall (The Great Cataclysm). No reader is going to care about the Space War between the Celestials and the Deviants or the Lemurian Deviants, or care about the copy/paste Lemuria which is just Atlantis but in the Pacific Ocean and it sank at the same time as Atlantis did. No reader is going to follow every comic to get the full picture. If we just read Namor comics its confusing enough, let alone adding in more. Not to mention Marvel's additional Marvel Universe books. It's safe to say from now that Atlantis is an afterthought and made up of a patchwork of stories over decades where no one cared about continuity or sense.

After all how is it we went from an evolved sea people to a island continent people who's city fell into the sea and then is found by those same sea people and the warrior is the spirit son of the fallen king and queen. See how confusing that is? But wait, it gets worse.

Saga of the Sub-Mariner (1988) #1

Origin #3: Now it's Deviant Lemuria who challenged the Celestials who punished the Lemurians, and Atlantis is caught up in the crossfire of that war. This origin follows the Tales of Atlantis origin.

This next origin goes more into detail between the Elder Gods, the war between the Celestials & the Deviants, and Lemuria. The important thing to note about this next one is that this is the first major Crossover Event to happen at Marvel comics, by crossover event I mean a comic event that spans several different comic series/characters and this is a very confusing, long winded series, thats is found in the Annuals of different comics, however it does touch on the Atlantean Origin.

Atlantis Attacks/Atlantis Rising (1989-1995)

Origin #4: The War between the Celestials & the Deviants cause Atlantis to fall into the sea. Uncanny X-Men (1963) Annual 13

During this event Morgan Le Fay raises the sunken Atlantis from the Sea and claims that it's actually Avalon, because in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #62 one of Namor's ancestors comes to him a vision and tells him that all of Atlantis didn't fall into sea and there still scattered islands left around. Later the island of Atlantis sinks into the sea as well.

So as you can see, the origins are just a tower of unstable blocks, every writer comes along and adds something to it. Now its not just Atlantis, Atlantis is also Avalon. Why. Why does Atlantis need to also be Avalon, why must they be connected at all? I think this got retconned later but I honestly don't care to find out.

Now this next one is my favorite origin and imo the one that is uniquely Namor's. It's written by J.M Dematteis and drawn by Liam Sharp. Firstly I regard this as the best Atlantean origin because Namor is directly involved, it's an interesting and original take on Atlantis, it brings in so much lore and artifacts in such a short amount of time and it has Cleito who is Neptune's wife as a goddess whom Namor worships as well. Namor's destiny is tied to Atlantis, and this is the first time we actually see him interacting with his destiny as a Son of Atlantis, it's Avenger, it's Protector.

Secondly, anytime Marvel uses Atlantis in the shared Marvel Universe, they twist it to fit whatever comic they are using it in. In Conan comics, in Hercules comics, etc. there are different stories, and while comics are very confusing, its worse when other characters comics are involved. I personally feel that Marvel tried to make Atlantis's history as linear as possible and just cram in all the origins/history but it doesn't work, you can read the wiki for different Atlantean Ages but for me, if it isn't directly tied to Namor then it means nothing. I'm here for Namor. I'm here for Namor's Atlantis. Which is why this Origin is what I consider to be the true origin because Namor is a big factor in it.

Man-Thing (1997) #7-8

Origin #5: Namor has a vision to seek out Man-Thing, who guides Namor to the lost City of the Golden Gate to retrieve & restore the Nexus Fragment. Here we learn that Atlantis was not one country or one Island Nation, but it was an Empire made up of Ten Kingdoms and had Ten Kings of Atlantis. Cleito is the Divine Mother, wife of Neptune/Poseidon (In the comics Neptune/Poseidon are interchangeable, they are they same character who is called by both names, because Atlantis is a Greco-Roman mash up.). Evenor (seahorse looking deity) is the Guardian God. Here we learn that the City of the Golden Gate was the capital of the Altantean Empire. It currently exists both in and out of time.

Namor is then taken into the past, to the capital city in it's prime, sees Atlantis in her Golden Age, and meets with his goddess, Cleito. She tells Namor: "Come forward Namor, and accept the coveted stone that only the Child of Earth and Sea may receive." Namor is given the Nexus Fragment and hears Cleito's words of wisdom, love, and praise.

Then Namor witnesses the Great Cataclysm, the Fall of the Ten Kingdoms of Atlantis, and sees his people drown in the sea.

All throughout Namor's comics we are told that Namor has a Great Destiny, that he is destined for something, destined to save Atlantis, to save the Seas, to save the Surface World. However in all of the other origins or even in Namor's other comics we do not get any further information of that Great Destiny, except in these two comics we get so much Lore & History; Namor witnesses his Ancestors downfall, and meets his goddess, and for the first time I actually felt that Namor is special. I really love this story and personally I feel this is the best arc for an Atlantean Origin because as I said before Namor is essential to the story, and that's why this story is valuable for his Atlantean Origin. There is more details in the comics, they talk about other artifacts like a Shroud, the past kings/people of Atlantis, etc.

Inhumans (1998)

Origin #6: Triton claims that the Inhumans and the Atlanteans are cousins. Atlantis that was risen by Morgan Le Fay is now home of the Inhumans, Attilan. Inhumans (1998) #9 I don't know or care when the Inhumans and Atlantean cousin origin started and it might have just been mentioned in this series.

And why not, why isn't Atlantis also Avalon and connected to Attilan, at this point I'm just waiting to make sure Atlantis isn't also Asgard as well. /sarcasm. Marvel, we do not need every magical/superhuman place to also be Atlantis. Anyways we aren't done yet.

The Incredible Hercules (2008) #123

Origin #7: The Atlanteans hired Amazons to slay Gorgons for them, instead of paying them their due for their work they killed some of them, and used magic to try and protect themselves from the Amazons retaliation, however the magic was too strong for them so as Atlantis sank into the sea they used their magic to turn their people into water breathers.

Finally we come to the final Atlantean Origin.

Namor: The Best Defense (2018)

Origin #8: Namor travels through tunnels and is transported to a world of water, where the Vodani live. On Vodan he meets the king and his daughter, the princess, and attempts to get them to rejoin their people with the Atlanteans. The Vodan King sets Namor to a test, kill a giant beast, when Namor and the princess do so the King still refuses to join with Namor and attempts to kill him while informing him that all Atlanteans are descended from Vodan. That Vodan is the true homeworld of the Atlanteans.

This origin is my most hated because it goes against everything that I believe Atlantis should be set in. 1. It makes Atlanteans space aliens. I hate that. I hate Atlantis being connected with space stuff. 2. It flies in the face of what Everett intended Namor to be, he wanted Namor to be the opposite of Superman, superman came from another planet so he had Namor be from Earth. By making the Atlanteans from Vodan it severs the last tie Namor has to Earth. After all if Vodan is so great and its a entire world made of water where the Vodani are so safe then what's to stop the Atlanteans from simply returning to their home world? In the comics Atlantis is constantly destroyed by events, and enemies, and bombs, and poisons, so why would they rebuild Atlantis over and over and over again? I just really really hate anything Atlantis being "Space Aliens". I also hate the Celestial & Deviant Lemuria war origin, and I hate the Amazon origin, I dislike the Spirit Son origin too, because in the end it over complicates and doesn't add anything to Namor's Lore.

Throughout the years Marvel has handbooks that explain Atlantis.

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Deluxe Edition (1985) #1 - Basically outlines Origins # 2, 3, 4

History of the Marvel Universe (2019) #1 - This Origin also goes along with the Celestial and The Great Cataclysm origins but once again Atlantis is caught in the crossfire of the Lemuria war, and this time Atlanteans somehow survived and Adapted to become water breathers. This differs from the origins of 2, 3, 4 where it says that a race of water breathers were already there but this is also different than origin 7 where magic was used to change the Atlanteans.

Now stories about Atlantis that take place in Atlantis are found in Namor's books, mostly the Silver Age gives the most focus with an Atlantean setting. However many of those plots are the same, Attuma attacks Atlantis, Namor and friends save the day. Krang betrays Atlantis, Namor saves the day. Some other threat comes up and Namor- you get it, he saves the day. Even Atlantis Attacks both the first and second series that have that name do not focus on Atlantis itself. You find some comics have short panels or issues that mention Atlantean History (events that happened after the Great Cataclysm) such as Emperor Thallo outlawing all clones/the cloning process (Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #20). Or Namor having a very bad time in hell (Namor: The First Mutant (2010) #6-7) and speaking with dead Atlanteans rulers like Empress Rithea. We get Namor's childhood in Atlantis as he grows up but to wrap up this already long post about Atlantis; There is no definitive origin. There is no definitive arc, except for one that I actually feel is a comic arc worth reading if people want a good Atlantis storyline.

Suma-Ket & Artys-Gran - Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #30-40

The Suma-Ket Arc begins in issue 30, with Namor, having lost his memories (again) is found by Doctor Doom, who also finds a woman who looks like and claims to be Princess Fen, Namor's long dead mother. As the arc proceeds the readers are drawn into a dark high fantasy story about Suma-Ket, the Prophet King of Ancient Atlantis. Before Namor's time, and before the time of his grandfather, and many before that. Suma-Ket came to "save" Atlantis from the Faceless Ones, demons with no faces, and the people welcomed him not knowing he probably sent the Faceless Ones himself so he could have a foothold into Atlantis. Over time he and his wife, Artys-Gran, overthrew their king and took control of Atlantis and its people. Both of them were sorcerers, Suma-Ket was a Necromancer who could command the Unforgiven Dead, and Artys-Gran was a Bodysnatcher, trading her mummified body for the body of whomever she chose. They slaughtered Atlantean children in their blood rituals, and ruled Atlantis through death and fear. They used blood magic to try and open the gates of the Demonic Elder gods, and needed royal Atlantean blood to do so. Both were banished along with all their loyal servants centuries ago but they return in issue 36 to take Atlantis once more. The art is harsh, but very compelling and I really love this story arc. Suma-Ket arrives in issue 36.

King in Black: Namor (2020) #1-5

This is another series that has a great Atlantean arc, and it's set during Namor's childhood with flashbacks to the present day. I really love this series and can't recommend it enough.

As you know, I love Namor and his world, but I personally feel that Namor's story is more about his character, navigating through two worlds, whose people are a minority and their homes were taken from them. Which is why I'm very pleased with Namor's Greco-Roman Atlantis being brought back to what it originally was, a isolated sub sea nation that sought to protect themselves from the surface world. That's why the Mesoamerican influence works with Mcu!Namor, and why I really feel that we haven't lost anything due to the changes to Talokan when Marvel Comics themselves never really put in an effort for a clear and concentrated Atlantean Worldbuilding.

Anyways, I hope this very long post helps explain things and if you want to check out my art commission of Namor and who I consider to be his Atlantean gods, enemies, and allies then I will link it, and I also commissioned a Talokan art. ( Atlantis / Talokan )

#namor #namor mckenzie #namor the sub mariner #mcu namor #atlantis #talokan #marvel comics #comic meta #imp answers #long post

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