#gwyn has never reacted to efnisien in FFS

[not-poignant]

I have a question about Gywn in UtB. I know what he said about how he feels now that Efnisien's out of the house, but I also remember Gwyn's nearly as unreliable a narrator as Efnisien. He went to visit and bring Ef clothes. I'm wondering if Gwyn's feeling in a similar situation to Ef from SotS after Gwyn left. Like the family dynamic is very off. Or Gwyn's version of it is anyway. It would make a nice narrative circle. And might effect future choices...? Or GC Gwyn is just a dick. Or both.

Hiya,

Gwyn is pretty terrible in this universe, I've always wanted to write a dark!Gwyn, and this is definitely a path to that.

I don't know if Gwyn is feeling like Efnisien re: Spoils. I'd say if anything, he certainly hasn't made any decisions to try and save Efnisien's life yet, so he's still firmly in the 'malicious coward' category and not like Efnisien at the end of Spoils who had found some courage/bravery to save Gwyn's life. Bringing someone clothes doesn't save anyone's life, the USB Efnisien gave to Augus and Gwyn was the thing that gave Gwyn his freedom, saved his life, and made him a millionaire in the process. The two aren't super comparable.

Imho for them to get there, Gwyn would need to have enough capacity for self-reflection to realise he needs to intervene and actively help save Efnisien's life, and then do something that directly puts his life in danger in the process.

I don't think he'd do that in this universe.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't help Efnisien, it just means that he'd do it in a way that protected himself first and foremost. This Gwyn doesn't have like... a mental disorder (like FFS Efnisien), he's a peak alpha who genuinely enjoys having power and control over others, and he's got a fair amount of control over Crielle as well. He's not really her victim the same way Efnisien was in FFS.

I do think there will be some similar narrative homages/acknowledgements, but imho, Gwyn's not there yet, and I don't really feel he's capable of the same kind of growth as like... FFS Efnisien. Partly because he literally doesn't have PTSD or a mental disorder or anything like that, he has no reason to change, and partly because Efnisien's memory isn't really that unreliable.

Gwyn incestuously (re: the mounting) abused him and was horrifically violent to him all his life. Gwyn was far more of an extreme and regular abuser towards Efnisien in UtB, than Efnisien was to Gwyn in FFS/Spoils. And we have never seen Gwyn have the kind of flashbacks towards Efnisien traumatising him in Spoils, as we've seen Efnisien have of Gwyn in UtB. In that sense, you can also just go by the concrete nature of what the audience is seeing in the story. Gwyn just doesn't flashback to what Efnisien does to him in the same way, meanwhile Efnisien's terror makes him immediately vomit, when Gary mounts him in Underline the Black.

So in that sense while there are similarities in the reversals, I don't want them to be a 1:1 comparison, because that's just...not really my favourite kind of AU to write. Like, there's already narrative circles in this story without them needing to be 'identical but just with different characters.' Y'know? I don't want to be like 'this is the same but' so much as 'this pays homage / makes nods to the original in these moments, and completely departs in these other moments' so I get to feel like I am actually writing an entirely new story.

Gwyn is a more extreme abuser with less likelihood of genuine change or redemption. That doesn't mean he won't try and keep Efnisien alive in the future, it just means his motivations will be different, and he's not going into like, an FFS arc or anything like that.

[not-poignant]

I'm not sure if you've answered this before, but I've read a lot of your work, and Efnisien has kind of become a favorite of mine and seeing how he's developed in AUs like FFS and UtB have you ever thought about how he might have developed had he not died in Game Theory?

Also, how do think the versions of Efnisien, Augus, and Gwyn in Canon Fae Tales, FFS, UtB would react to each other if they ever met or were made aware of the other's existence?

Hi hi anon!

I've answered this before but probably quite a while ago, while writing Falling Falling Stars in particular.

Tbh, Efnisien would have developed in Fae Tales by becoming more evil, and more depraved, and more awful. He was and remains to me a completely irredeemable character who was so cruel even Crielle thought it was extreme.

If Fae Tales Efnisien ever met any other version of Efnisien, he'd murder him. He'd probably torture him first and laugh about it, while grinding into his revealed organs. His heartsong has been Joy/Glee, simply because he loves cruelty and evil that much. He's like a pure distillation of someone who just doesn't need anything else if he has a knife and a squealing victim.

One of the challenges of writing Spoils of the Spoiled was how to make Efnisien more believably human and give him a back story that justified that. But Fae Tales Efnisien doesn't have that. He wasn't brainwashed or conditioned into being evil, he tried killing someone within about two days of being alive and loved inflicting pain from the moment he was born. Efnisien's response to meeting anyone from any other universe would be to torture and murder them. And probably laugh at them and mock them. I don't think any version of a human Efnisien would have much of an opportunity to do much more than be horrified, scream, and then die.

Imho, to me Fae Tales Efnisien and human Efnisien are two kind of different characters who look the same and have family members with the same names. But their upbringing was very different, and their capacity for compassion is different (one for example, has a capacity for compassion, the other doesn't).

Also, how do think the versions of Efnisien, Augus, and Gwyn in Canon Fae Tales, FFS, UtB would react to each other if they ever met or were made aware of the other's existence?

I'm never quite sure how to answer stuff like this otherwise. Augus would see a human version of Augus as food. I don't even think he'd truly recognise the similarity otherwise and just be like 'how unfortunate for you that you're a vulnerable delicious sack of meat who looks like me, by the way are you vegan by any chance.'

Gwyn likewise looks down on humans as like...interesting but largely annoying creatures that he's glad to have nothing to do with, and I think he'd consider any version of his human self to be weak in nature. I think he'd find a peak alpha Gwyn obnoxious and kind of laughable sldakfja

I'm not generally writing characters with a view that they should ever meet versions of themselves, but like, Augus and Gwyn are varying degrees of 'loathe humans' to 'don't care about humans' on the spectrum.

I think of Gwyn and Augus met Lone Wolf Gwyn and Augus that would be interesting, but I also think they'd mostly just... semi-get along and think something was very broken with the world if they ever met, and probably be like 'we should fix this because this should not be happening and we should not be meeting each other like this' lol. I think canon GT Gwyn would find Lone Wolf Gwyn too soft-natured and a bit spoiled but post-TIP Gwyn might find his life fascinating, and Lone Wolf Gwyn would probably have a different reaction depending on whether we're talking about pre-GT Gwyn, GT-Gwyn, post-GT Gwyn, post-COFT Gwyn, TIP Gwyn, or post-TIP Gwyn because...I don't like my main characters to stay the same x.x

Thought exercises like this are ultimately baffling to me. The only one I know how to answer easily is FT Efnisien vs. human Efnisien because to me that is like two different characters meeting, and FT Efnisien is extremely predictable because 'be cruel, torture, and kill while having the time of his life' is basically his entire character aside from 'love my Aunt so much it's creepy.'

[not-poignant]

That new FFS chapter killed me. I have never disliked Gwyn before but WOW I disliked Gwyn so much. I get it but still, it was jarring to see Gwyn's idea of Ef against the real Ef. It does make me curious about some things, like how Arden would react to Gwyn's idea of their relationship. As for Dr. Gary, how does he feel about Gwyn? Neutral in a professional way? Bitter? He recognizes Gwyn isn't healthy for Ef in a practical way, but I wonder if it ever gets a little personal for him

Dr Gary doesn’t like Gwyn being in Efnisien’s life at all. He strongly believes that Gwyn is a negative and detrimental influence on Efnisien’s life, and you can actually see Dr Gary trying to point this out in their first session together after Efnisien sees Arden for the first time. Efnisien misses Dr Gary’s point, but Dr Gary makes an effort to point out that the only reason Efnisien felt well enough to leave his house and buy a book (and meet someone) was because Gwyn cancelled.

While Dr Gary follows Efnisien’s lead re: whether Gwyn is in Efnisien’s life or not, he is really hanging out for the day when Efnisien realises that Gwyn is toxic and abusive towards him (which Gwyn is). Dr Gary is also waiting for Efnisien to realise that though he held the power as a predator in that household, Gwyn holds the power now, and uses it to lash out. Think of it this way: Efnisien is an extremely safe target for all of Gwyn’s rage towards his family and his experiences, and Gwyn exercises that rage on a regular basis towards Efnisien, with gaslighting, lack of empathy and compassion, now acephobia, active threats of violence (from someone who tried to beat Efnisien to death) and more.

I was kind of surprised at how many people thought Gwyn was ‘better’ in the last chapter because he literally showed the tiniest shred of care - but that care came at the cost of Efnisien being actively gaslighted, receiving acephobia, and having his privacy violated unapologetically. Gwyn behaves terribly to Efnisien, and none of it is justified now that we’re three years into the future. After all, if Gwyn genuinely believes he can’t trust Efnisien at all - then why is he visiting? He doesn’t get to have it both ways: He can’t believe his visits help Efnisien stay focused on his recovery, and then get to viciously undermine Efnisien’s attempts at recovery.

Gwyn does both freely, with zero consequence, and Dr Gary cannot wait for him to be gone. Dr Gary is aware that Gwyn is very much a victim, but he’s also aware that Gwyn was raised in that household, and has absorbed some abusive traits (which you can actually see throughout SOTS, it’s just they’re much easier to both forgive/tolerate when he’s a main character who you’re rooting for).

I’m not sure how personal it gets for Dr Gary. He tends to see a lot of situations as opportunities. For example, if Efnisien isn’t ready to push Gwyn away - he sees that as an opportunity to do more groundwork with Efnisien around subjects relating to self-respect or self-worth or boundary-setting. If Efnisien tries to push Gwyn away and it doesn’t work, Dr Gary will see that as an opportunity to talk about boundary-setting, or how it feels to not have your boundaries respected (which is important to talk to Efnisien about on a lot of levels).

He definitely doesn’t share Efnisien’s view that Gwyn is only a victim and can do no wrong ever and is basically like a saint for visiting every month for so long (though Efnisien is feeling this less as well). After all, Dr Gary met Gwyn very early on, in SOTS, and knows full well what Gwyn’s personality is like.

But yeah, no, Dr Gary has his like, feelings about what he’d prefer re: the health of his client, but I don’t think he’s sitting there feeling bitter about it or anything.

As to Arden... I think he’d very much be along the lines of ‘I can fight my own battles, man, leave us alone.’ But Efnisien has this habit of not sharing the names of people when he’s talking about them, especially if they’re very close to him. So Arden doesn’t know Gwyn as Gwyn, only ‘Efnisien’s cousin.’ And Gwyn doesn’t know Arden as Arden, only ‘my boyfriend.’

Which is a shame in a way, because Gwyn and Arden have known each other for years.