#and is waiting for efnisien to recognise

[not-poignant]

I was wondering, what does Anton think about efnisien and flitmouse sharing a nest what with ef being an alpha and feeling like one the majority of the time? does he mind?

Hi anon,

I think Anton struggles with it the same way most alphas do, the same way Gary does when he knows that Efnisien seeing Anton or Temsen is good for Efnisien, and needs to happen, but also kind of chafes or feels physically uncomfortable at the same time.

Anton is relatively low on the possessiveness scale, so he can handle it better than some, but he still definitely feels it, and I'd say he like, aggressively scents Flitmouse afterwards, and makes sure Flitmouse knows he belongs to Anton.

It's one of those 'I recognise this is good for my partner and I want the best for him, however my instincts really aren't having a good time with this, but I'm a grown-ass adult so I can manage it in a mature way.' And that's basically what he does!

[not-poignant]

Pia, I read chapter 65 of UtB (I caved, I was going to wait) and now I am. So angry. With Temsen. Like so angry !! (I'm feeling the dystopia in dystopian universe) (if I had an emoji that's laughing and ugly crying at the same time, it'd go here) Now if you hadn't repeatedly told others to take breaks from reading then I don't think I would've recognised I needed one myself, so. Thank you. I think I am. Practicing a new coping skill, now. *vibrates like thermally agitated molecules*

Hi anon!

Yes! Taking breaks when you need them is very good. :D

I know exactly what chapter you're talking about without looking, because it was a divisive chapter (it's the Domestic Violence chapter where Temsen gives Efnisien a 'come to Jesus' talk re: telling him to cut out his abusive behaviour, because he is being abusive), but the timing is difficult and painful.

Efnisien does need the talk, and does get something very valuable from it (to the point that even 30 chapters later, he's still thinking about it when he needs to feel stronger and more purposeful), but I remember when writing the author's note that the chapter would be quite divisive re: people being upset at Temsen.

The irony is that it's actually one of the better things Temsen's ever done. Efnisien is domestically violent and does slip into abusive behaviours - and domestically abusive behaviours - very easily. Just because that's all he's known, doesn't mean it should be accepted or condoned or allowed. Temsen's talk is one of self-responsibility, and the importance of owning your own actions, even when things are incredibly hard. And the timing of the talk is terrible, but the talk itself is vital.

There's no world where it's excusable to become abusive to a partner just because you don't want to communicate something in actual words. And while even Gary is angry at Temsen for the timing of that talk, Efnisien himself is grateful for it and uses it to become stronger within himself. Because that talk acknowledges Efnisien's capacity for power and self-responsibility after a lifetime of people assuming he's powerless or not capable of taking responsibility for himself.

To me, it's actually one of the least dystopian chapters, but it is a distressing one, especially if you're feeling for Efnisien and therefore feel his actions are excusable (which they aren't, even with all the sympathy in the world. Destroying someone's beloved objects simply to torture them because that's easier than talking is domestic violence, and Hillview would be a pretty poor place indeed if they encouraged or supported that behaviour.)

[not-poignant]

That new FFS chapter killed me. I have never disliked Gwyn before but WOW I disliked Gwyn so much. I get it but still, it was jarring to see Gwyn's idea of Ef against the real Ef. It does make me curious about some things, like how Arden would react to Gwyn's idea of their relationship. As for Dr. Gary, how does he feel about Gwyn? Neutral in a professional way? Bitter? He recognizes Gwyn isn't healthy for Ef in a practical way, but I wonder if it ever gets a little personal for him

Dr Gary doesn’t like Gwyn being in Efnisien’s life at all. He strongly believes that Gwyn is a negative and detrimental influence on Efnisien’s life, and you can actually see Dr Gary trying to point this out in their first session together after Efnisien sees Arden for the first time. Efnisien misses Dr Gary’s point, but Dr Gary makes an effort to point out that the only reason Efnisien felt well enough to leave his house and buy a book (and meet someone) was because Gwyn cancelled.

While Dr Gary follows Efnisien’s lead re: whether Gwyn is in Efnisien’s life or not, he is really hanging out for the day when Efnisien realises that Gwyn is toxic and abusive towards him (which Gwyn is). Dr Gary is also waiting for Efnisien to realise that though he held the power as a predator in that household, Gwyn holds the power now, and uses it to lash out. Think of it this way: Efnisien is an extremely safe target for all of Gwyn’s rage towards his family and his experiences, and Gwyn exercises that rage on a regular basis towards Efnisien, with gaslighting, lack of empathy and compassion, now acephobia, active threats of violence (from someone who tried to beat Efnisien to death) and more.

I was kind of surprised at how many people thought Gwyn was ‘better’ in the last chapter because he literally showed the tiniest shred of care - but that care came at the cost of Efnisien being actively gaslighted, receiving acephobia, and having his privacy violated unapologetically. Gwyn behaves terribly to Efnisien, and none of it is justified now that we’re three years into the future. After all, if Gwyn genuinely believes he can’t trust Efnisien at all - then why is he visiting? He doesn’t get to have it both ways: He can’t believe his visits help Efnisien stay focused on his recovery, and then get to viciously undermine Efnisien’s attempts at recovery.

Gwyn does both freely, with zero consequence, and Dr Gary cannot wait for him to be gone. Dr Gary is aware that Gwyn is very much a victim, but he’s also aware that Gwyn was raised in that household, and has absorbed some abusive traits (which you can actually see throughout SOTS, it’s just they’re much easier to both forgive/tolerate when he’s a main character who you’re rooting for).

I’m not sure how personal it gets for Dr Gary. He tends to see a lot of situations as opportunities. For example, if Efnisien isn’t ready to push Gwyn away - he sees that as an opportunity to do more groundwork with Efnisien around subjects relating to self-respect or self-worth or boundary-setting. If Efnisien tries to push Gwyn away and it doesn’t work, Dr Gary will see that as an opportunity to talk about boundary-setting, or how it feels to not have your boundaries respected (which is important to talk to Efnisien about on a lot of levels).

He definitely doesn’t share Efnisien’s view that Gwyn is only a victim and can do no wrong ever and is basically like a saint for visiting every month for so long (though Efnisien is feeling this less as well). After all, Dr Gary met Gwyn very early on, in SOTS, and knows full well what Gwyn’s personality is like.

But yeah, no, Dr Gary has his like, feelings about what he’d prefer re: the health of his client, but I don’t think he’s sitting there feeling bitter about it or anything.

As to Arden... I think he’d very much be along the lines of ‘I can fight my own battles, man, leave us alone.’ But Efnisien has this habit of not sharing the names of people when he’s talking about them, especially if they’re very close to him. So Arden doesn’t know Gwyn as Gwyn, only ‘Efnisien’s cousin.’ And Gwyn doesn’t know Arden as Arden, only ‘my boyfriend.’

Which is a shame in a way, because Gwyn and Arden have known each other for years.

[not-poignant]

I honestly can't wait for Dr Gary to figure out and find out about all the abuse / mistreatment Efnisien has suffered. Do you think he'll be mad?

I can just imagine his horror, and the horror that slowly dawns on other staff members of the facility, as they put it all together and come up with a very ugly picture.

Call me a softy but I'm kinda looking forward to people being mad on Efnisien's behalf? 😅 And I'm looking forward to him getting to experience what it's like to actually be cared for and protected in his life.

But obviously I know it'll most likely take a while to get there, and enjoying all the chaos and angst in between XD

Do you think he'll be mad?

Dr Gary's already mad, because it's been made his problem and he's not happy about it, lol. At this point, his main emotion - that he's taking out on Efnisien - is anger. And the more anger he has at Efnisien's family, the more he kind of does end up taking it out on Efnisien. He has a degree of pity, as well, but like...a character being angry on another character's behalf doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be nice or kind to them. Even if that anger comes from a place of felt injustice on the other person's behalf.

(See also: Pitch in the beginning of The Golden Age that Never Was who clearly felt sorry for Jack because he felt Jack would die in the mountain, so he organised him to go last so he'd almost definitely die in the mountain, and basically gave him a 'pity death sentence.')

I think the thing with Dr Gary - and this was also true in Falling Falling Stars - is he can hear about extremely horrible things and he's not particularly shocked by it. Every omega in their facility has past trauma of some kind, many from abuse, and some from neglect, and some from both. So abuse backgrounds don't really shock him anymore, if anything, I think he believes they're inevitable for an omega to end up at his facility (which...true). None of the alphas there are going to be shocked to know that Efnisien has been abused. These are all people who are companions to abused omegas etc.

The degree of the medical experimentation I think is the thing that Dr Gary is so far finding most shocking, and that will be the same for many of the other alphas as well. But he still has to put the safety of his other alphas and omegas first, so it's not like he can soften to Efnisien right now just because he had a bad past. There are serial killers who were abused by children, and murderers, and certainly Efnisien has attempted murder already, to one of the alphas who is known for being particularly kind and laidback.

Dr Gary is more horrified by this, and that also makes him angry. The thing that people want Dr Gary to feel for Efnisien - compassion and worry for him - is the thing that Dr Gary right now feels for the other alphas (and their omegas) in the facilty. Efnisien is dangerous, unpredictable, and has displayed murderous intent. It's hard to override that until you know the other people in your care, who trust you, are safe.

So yeah while I am looking forward to Dr Gary sort of becoming more attached to Efnisien and kinder to him, it's funny to say but - Dr Gary already recognises a degree of monstrous abuse, and he already is angry at the situation, and he also doesn't believe he should have to deal with someone who is putting all of his staff and omegas at risk.

I think the other alphas will get mad on Efnisien's behalf in a way that makes them soften towards him a lot faster than Dr Gary will, but also, none of them are responsible for the staff in the facility like Dr Gary is, so they have this luxury.

[not-poignant]

How is Kadek going to act in Underline the black? Like Is he going to be dark in this universe, or have his personality from FFS? Also wondering about how Gary will act.

What will Gwyn and Efnisiens relationship be like? Since personalities are swapped and all.

Is Efnisien going to have traditional omega genitals? Or will he just have male genitals?

(Sorry I know im asking a lot, im just really curious)

I'm not going to be able to answer all of these due to spoilers, lol, but I'll do my best.

How is Kadek going to act in Underline the black?

He'll still be recognisable as Kadek! In the UtB universe, he's an alpha and a retrainer of omegas. He'll still have his personality and still be in a really broken, dark system. The same can be said for Dr Gary. This is a universe where rich families or spouses can send their omegas to an asylum-like facility to be forcibly retrained into 'proper omegas' so that they're better suited to being presented to the upper classes as candidates for arranged marriage, or as spouses. It's not that (all) the characters are evil (some will be), it's that the universe is very dystopian for omegas, and there are alphas who reinforce that, even if they're not evil people. That's what makes it a dark universe in this instance. There is an inherent power imbalance in the system, and that won't be fixed by the end of the story.

What will Gwyn and Efnisiens relationship be like? Since personalities are swapped and all.

Their personalities aren't swapped! Their upbringings are. That's a very different thing! It's definitely not a personality swap fic. Gwyn will still be Gwyn, just someone who has received Crielle's love and acceptance, and who has a lot to gain by putting Efnisien down. Efnisien will still be Efnisien, just someone who has struggled to receive Crielle's love and acceptance. Their dynamic is different to the Gwyn-Efnisien dynamic in anything else, even reversed. Because Gwyn wouldn't behave the same way as Efnisien would if he had Crielle's favour - because he's Gwyn and they don't have identical personalities that can just be swapped. You're going to have to wait and see how Gwyn will behave!

Is Efnisien going to have traditional omega genitals? Or will he just have male genitals?

Tbh I'm not sure where you got this from. 'Traditional omega genitals' are not what you think they are, so story time! Supernatural and a couple of other fandoms invented omegaverse, and in those original a/b/o fics, there were no male omegas who also had a vagina/two holes. That was actually a later invention! (As was nesting and a whole bunch of other stuff). There's nothing 'traditional' about it. It's just a really cool aspect of the omegaverse that some folks enjoy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

If you want to be accurate to tradition re: omega genitals, men simply have their ass that they leak slick from and can get pregnant from: that's one of the very earliest omegaverse inventions. I highly recommend you check out Fanlore to learn more about fandom history! :D

So Efnisien will have what are recognised as cis genitals. This will be a no-mpreg / mpreg-is-impossible universe!

[not-poignant]

I know that you hate when we asked about some details that already mentioned in the fic, but it's been months since reading ffs and tmid, so I am sorry if it's already mentioned. So, have you actually ever described what Dr. Gary look like? Also, I know that ef was nonverbal when he started seeing him, but for how long? And how he started talking eventually? Thank you!

Hallo anon!

I don't hate it at all! If I hated it, I wouldn't respond to the asks :D I can find it frustrating sometimes (and usually just if I'm already not in a good place? Most of the time I recognise that I know where a lot of the details are and my stories are long and people can't be expected to remember everything!)

As for Dr Gary, I've actually never described him! That's been an intentional writing technique, where I want people to imagine him however they see him (which is really interesting, some people imagine him quite old, others see him as 40~, some see him with black hair, others with white etc.) The only things I've ever described are the state of his shoes (often shiny) and that he wore a tie once, I'm pretty sure.

Mostly I want people to kind of project onto Dr Gary however they like, because I want him to feel 'safe' for people, and if I locked him down into a very fixed image of a therapist they found traumatising, or someone they don't like, he wouldn't feel safe at all. As a result, every now and then I get a double take of 'wait have you ever described him?' as above. And I get to grin and say no! Not in over half a million words! And I never will. :D Some people have really clear images, and other people don't. But most people still have a sense of him whether it's the sound of his voice, or the way he looks, or what he wears, or even just how he 'feels' as a character.

As for Efnisien being non-verbal, that was intermittent (it wasn't like he decided not to talk for a period and then suddenly started talking again - he went back and forth). I've left the time he spent nonverbal with Dr Gary specifically pretty nonspecific on purpose (i.e. it's in line with Efnisien's own foggy memory, and it wouldn't really be accurate to the story for Efnisien to be recalling that part of his past in precise numbers - since he was so badly traumatised and dissociated during that time), but we can tell from FFS that it does span a fair amount of time. As for how he started talking eventually:

‘I guess…’ Efnisien thought back to those inpatient appointments in Hillview. The ones where he was so often mute, and Dr Gary would drink a cup of coffee, and sometimes talk a little bit about his day – though never very meaningful shit, always just…what the weather was like, or if he had a bit more paperwork than normal – and never seem bothered by it. And he always thanked Efnisien for his time at the end in those early days.

‘Thank you for your patience with me, Efnisien. If there’s anything you can ever imagine helping you, I’d be happy to hear it. In the meantime I’m happy to continue as we are.’

And then one day Efnisien started talking, started yelling, started threatening, started holding pens to Dr Gary’s neck and walking out on him multiple times a week and slamming doors. Sometimes he’d stand in the doorway or a corridor and yell at Dr Gary like he was dying for Dr Gary to get uncomfortable enough to walk past him, thinking he’d try and kill him if he so much as stood.

So as you can see, he kind of started with a huge amount of open hostility, lol.

[not-poignant]

That last ffs chapter was perfect! Didnt realize just how bad Efs therapist triggered PTSD was and reading the part where he gets scared and starts stuttering got me in the heart. And Dr Gary handling it so well! telling him his hands are important! It kinda reminded me of Ef feeling like his hands weren’t important when Arden first tied them up. And also when Arden told him his hands were perfect. Can’t wait to read this one over and over again!

I’m so glad you enjoyed it!

And yeah, Efnisien’s PTSD that’s triggered re: Henton has been present in almost every session since the beginning actually, it’s just not been very ‘eventful’ in some cases and it’s a lot more subtle (which, frankly, a lot of PTSD is, which is why it’s easy for people to have it to kind of ‘forget’ about it even when it’s ruling their lives). But from... never wanting to touch Dr Gary’s hands, and being hesitant about handing things to him, to thinking that Dr Gary is lying to him because Henton said something different, it’s always kind of been lurking. I could probably point out several places in each therapy session where Efnisien has behaved in a certain way because of Henton-related trauma.

Efnisien’s had two pretty major meltdowns around Mika now, and that’s pushing too close to a pattern for Dr Gary’s liking, so they’ll never have a joint session with the three of them in that office again. If/when Efnisien sees Mika again, it will be a pretty different scenario, and Dr Gary and Efnisien will probably talk a lot about it first.

It’s funny, I think Dr Gary handled it as well as he could given the circumstances, but he made some big mistakes. Aside from creating the environment where this could happen in the first place, he also initially threatened Efnisien with Hillview or a hospital to get him to comply with them while standing and crowding him and being a direct trigger, which is actually not a great thing to do with someone in general, let alone someone who’s self-harming (it’s why he back-pedalled pretty firmly on this, with both apologies, and then reminding Efnisien that it’s perfectly understandable to self-harm when he feels he had no other option left to him - a situation Dr Gary created, and then compounded. Like Dr Gary apologised for a lot of stuff in that session, and he was right to).

Dr Gary has a very pushy style that wouldn’t actually suit a lot of clients. And he took a risk and it did not pay off during that session, because he wasn’t assessing the situation properly. I think sometimes - at least rarely - he can get lax with Efnisien because Efnisien is an ‘easy’ client for him. But easy doesn’t always mean that he doesn’t need some vigilance and gentle handling from time to time.

So while I’m happy that Dr Gary recovered really well, he really did kind of set the situation up to be a perfect storm in the first place. I think he was repeating to himself ‘this is an opportunity, this is an opportunity’ a fair few times in that session, lmao, which is what he reminds himself when something goes wrong and he realises he’s fucked up. But I don’t think he’s going to get Efnisien’s expression and words out of his head any time soon when Efnisien straight up reacted to him like he was Henton and started begging him not to touch him. But that’s why Dr Gary has his own therapist.

I feel bad for Mika though. So much of Efnisien’s feelings around his sexuality and his submission are directly tied to aspects of his past. I think he would have been submissive anyway, even without Crielle, but he doesn’t have that meta in his own head - all he knows is that he was raised to behave a certain way, and now he’s behaving that way around Arden sometimes, and he doesn’t know what that means about him as a person. There’s very few subjects that Mika and Efnisien can safely cover without directly stepping through the minefield that is Efnisien’s past. I honestly think Efnisien was charging headlong into a serious meltdown before Dr Gary even came back in the room and tipped him over.

I think we can see how disturbed Efnisien was at the end of the session by the fact that he was really resistant to being calmed down. Like, he changed the subject several times when Dr Gary started encouraging him to think and talk about Stupidhead. Efnisien wasn’t ready to be coaxed away from that emotional upset, and it’s a sign that he’s not really that stable right now. Like Dr Gary did his best, and they did have a good conversation, but Efnisien really wasn’t ready to leave at the end of that session. I think that’s the first time we’ve seen him really hesitate and stay back to try and grab a few more minutes with Dr Gary at the end of a session, though some of that is because he’s resistant to seeing doctors, but some of it is...he’s very upset, and he didn’t find the equilibrium he usually finds after a session. And that’s a pretty big neon sign that Dr Gary messed that one up. But hey, as he says, he’s only human - therapists make mistakes, and they are opportunities.

Part of therapy is learning how to enter the rupture-repair cycle safely. Which is that - something happens where you’re upset at something the therapist has done (or vice versa) and that creatures a rupture. But ruptures always lead to opportunities to repair. And some of the strongest relationships and friendships in the world are the ones that have a healthy rupture-repair cycle. But this rupture has not yet been fully repaired, which I think Dr Gary recognises by his suggesting that they talk further about the way he can support and help Efnisien when he starts regressing or seeing Dr Gary as Henton specifically.

(I’m thinking about it, I do think Dr Gary’s pushy style actually suits Efnisien a lot of the time! Because it gives/affords Efnisien opportunities to have an anger response, feel his anger, realise that he doesn’t like what someone else has said, and do something about it. And a lot of the time he responds and vocalises that anger safely. Like, yes, he’s rude about it, but for the most part, when he feels safe enough, he will tell Dr Gary that he thinks he’s mean, and that gives them a further opportunity to talk about that, and for Dr Gary to apologise, or course correct, or explain himself - and that teaches Efnisien that pointing out when he’s been hurt by someone doesn’t always have to lead to catastrophe - so in that sense, it’s really crucial to this stage of Efnisien’s development. When it works, anyway).

God I’m rambling salkdfja

[not-poignant]

It never hit me that Nate is the 1st person that Efnisien hasn't liked since Augus. Will we ever get to see Efnisien talking about Augus with Dr. Gary?

We will!

I’ve come to realise that it’s actually getting really important that we explore why Efnisien didn’t like Augus, because it’s more complicated than just ‘jealousy.’ And I think it will be a really valuable thing in the story to explore in general, to give a better picture of Efnisien’s...thinking patterns, and how he might actually have good reason to resent how someone who also engaged in criminal activity regularly got a completely happy ending with zero consequences for his actions.

Cuz you know, Augus did legitimately steal a house, rape a fellow teenager and send him to the hospital, terrorise kids in the school, run a racket of selling papers for pay while making other kids do that work for him (Terho was legitimately scared of Augus, lmao), and his reward for it was getting adopted by the best mother ever, his boyfriend becoming a millionaire, having a job he likes, people in his corner who will fight for him (and ignore the law for him), etc.

And granted, Efnisien didn’t go to juvenile detention, but it’s... definitely complicated in Efnisien’s mind. I think one of the reasons he consigns it all to ‘it’s just jealousy’ is because thinking about it further than that is difficult for him.

And I think one of the reasons he dislikes Nate is that Nate gets to go around the world being rude and mean to people, and other people still accept him, and he resents that. He has...some issues around all of this stuff that I think Dr Gary will be curious to draw out, he’s waiting to tap into the Nate-hate, because at the moment he knows it’s bigger than it seems, and he’s waiting for Efnisien to recognise that too.

[not-poignant]

Hi Pia! I’ve been rereading FFS, and there’s a part where Efnisien is reflecting on the names in his family, and how his own name has always really bothered him. Do you think he’d ever want to change his name to distance himself from his upbringing?

Actually, when I first imagined Falling Falling Stars, he was totally going to change his name! His name is extremely recognisable, and I know he was initially going to change it actually partly because it makes him very easy to find re: victims (he’s very ‘anonymous’ online these days, which helps).

In the end I decided against it, but honestly if he did ever change his name it’d be to something very simple, like ‘Sam’ or something. But I think it would have been something he brought up with Dr Gary, and Dr Gary would’ve had serious discussions with him about it that is making Efnisien wait it out for now.