#the way efnisien reacts to gwyn in UtB

[not-poignant]

I have a question about Gywn in UtB. I know what he said about how he feels now that Efnisien's out of the house, but I also remember Gwyn's nearly as unreliable a narrator as Efnisien. He went to visit and bring Ef clothes. I'm wondering if Gwyn's feeling in a similar situation to Ef from SotS after Gwyn left. Like the family dynamic is very off. Or Gwyn's version of it is anyway. It would make a nice narrative circle. And might effect future choices...? Or GC Gwyn is just a dick. Or both.

Hiya,

Gwyn is pretty terrible in this universe, I've always wanted to write a dark!Gwyn, and this is definitely a path to that.

I don't know if Gwyn is feeling like Efnisien re: Spoils. I'd say if anything, he certainly hasn't made any decisions to try and save Efnisien's life yet, so he's still firmly in the 'malicious coward' category and not like Efnisien at the end of Spoils who had found some courage/bravery to save Gwyn's life. Bringing someone clothes doesn't save anyone's life, the USB Efnisien gave to Augus and Gwyn was the thing that gave Gwyn his freedom, saved his life, and made him a millionaire in the process. The two aren't super comparable.

Imho for them to get there, Gwyn would need to have enough capacity for self-reflection to realise he needs to intervene and actively help save Efnisien's life, and then do something that directly puts his life in danger in the process.

I don't think he'd do that in this universe.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't help Efnisien, it just means that he'd do it in a way that protected himself first and foremost. This Gwyn doesn't have like... a mental disorder (like FFS Efnisien), he's a peak alpha who genuinely enjoys having power and control over others, and he's got a fair amount of control over Crielle as well. He's not really her victim the same way Efnisien was in FFS.

I do think there will be some similar narrative homages/acknowledgements, but imho, Gwyn's not there yet, and I don't really feel he's capable of the same kind of growth as like... FFS Efnisien. Partly because he literally doesn't have PTSD or a mental disorder or anything like that, he has no reason to change, and partly because Efnisien's memory isn't really that unreliable.

Gwyn incestuously (re: the mounting) abused him and was horrifically violent to him all his life. Gwyn was far more of an extreme and regular abuser towards Efnisien in UtB, than Efnisien was to Gwyn in FFS/Spoils. And we have never seen Gwyn have the kind of flashbacks towards Efnisien traumatising him in Spoils, as we've seen Efnisien have of Gwyn in UtB. In that sense, you can also just go by the concrete nature of what the audience is seeing in the story. Gwyn just doesn't flashback to what Efnisien does to him in the same way, meanwhile Efnisien's terror makes him immediately vomit, when Gary mounts him in Underline the Black.

So in that sense while there are similarities in the reversals, I don't want them to be a 1:1 comparison, because that's just...not really my favourite kind of AU to write. Like, there's already narrative circles in this story without them needing to be 'identical but just with different characters.' Y'know? I don't want to be like 'this is the same but' so much as 'this pays homage / makes nods to the original in these moments, and completely departs in these other moments' so I get to feel like I am actually writing an entirely new story.

Gwyn is a more extreme abuser with less likelihood of genuine change or redemption. That doesn't mean he won't try and keep Efnisien alive in the future, it just means his motivations will be different, and he's not going into like, an FFS arc or anything like that.

[not-poignant]

salut pia!

ive been wondering? how do you handle/change modes when you’re writing across AUs/fics? i mean not only the personality/attribute changes (like role reversal with ef and gwyn) but also change in…oh how do i say this..when a character is a MC in one but side/minor in another? bc they are different devices to different stories, how do you keep an overview of how much you reveal, go into so as to not side track from the main story or change the “flow”. example: whenever theres mentions of gender identity and betas somethin somethin feeling like omegas somethin somethin comes up “casually” sirens go off in my head and then i realise wait faber is NOT the MC in this story this is not about him him but its a little bit about him him. and then i feel like im standing behind a glass wall looking from Utb/Utg to Utr screaming at faber but he is a NPC here so we dont know whats going on in his head. that scene with ef and him eating carrots?…. i would give my right foot and skin tone copic markers to be a fly on the wall in fabers POV (the timelines probably wont align for it to happen but would you ever consider sth like this?? a scene overlapp across stories i mean?)

i’ve mostly read within that universe but ive also read spoils where your characters have completely different..positions? roles? weight? than in rainbow. so yeah how do you keep it all “appropriate” or “fitting” for their roles in different stories. like a puppet master

cheers xx

Hi anon,

So this is going to be not very helpful, but I don't write this stuff down for the most part.

This is the stuff I find so easy that this is why this is my job, in a way. I don't have a list of 'different Efnisiens' to keep track of, or 'different Gwyns.' They become themselves within the story. If I read a chapter of the story I get back into it (actually often I just need to listen to a song or put on the right playlist). Every version of a character is kind of there right now. I know how each would respond to something, and how those things would be the same or vary based on life experiences and the question etc.

I don't do really much at all to change modes. I just...do. There is no overview. It's all in my head. I'd say some of this goes down to how long / how many years I've spent studying character and dialogue overall. But even when I was younger I found this pretty easy, and transplanting characters into different situations to see how they'd react similarly / differently was one of my favourite kinds of exercises even when I was a teenager.

Some of it is knowing focus. Faber's side story is interesting, for those who like Faber and/or Underline the Red, hints about his gender struggles are fascinating, but they can only ever be hints, because I'm mindful that many readers aren't interested in Faber except as a minor character, and haven't read Underline the Red.

The focus is always Efnisien and Gary. Other characters can have their own lives and motivations, but it won't be more than that in the main story. Though I can go into a bit more detail because of the length of the story which is really nice for building out side characters / ensemble cast.

As to crossover perspectives, I don't know! I know we'll see some of Faber's perspective of Efnisien arriving at Hillview in Underline the Red, but obviously things impact characters differently at different times, I don't know what will be most important by the time we get to Faber's side of things. I used to write alternative perspectives as side chapters for Fae Tales though, and that could be a lot of fun.

so yeah how do you keep it all “appropriate” or “fitting” for their roles in different stories.

I saw a video by Hank Green I think once where he said the reason sportspeople are so good at their sports is in part because they're physically often the best at that sport anyway. Like, ballerinas have a certain build, swimmers have a certain build, and any training they do works to support that and make them better, but they were 'built' out for those sports in the first place. Some people have yoga bodies. I have a swimming body and swimming shoulders.

And I feel like this is true sometimes with writing. I don't try to keep it appropriate or fitting, I just know that the ensemble characters can't matter as much as the main characters in the course of the story. That's what a story is. That's what a main character and an ensemble character is. I would say years of experience has made this part of writing mostly easy and fun for me, so I don't have to think or overthink about this stuff anymore. At worst I might think 'was that too much Faber? Eh, it's helping Efnisien, it's still important to the plot and his character arc.'

I'm 'built' for writing big worlds with big ensemble casts where all the characters are important but where the focus is only on a couple of main characters per story. I'm built for character-focused stories and seem to be very built for transplanting characters I love into different worlds (and different roles) to see how that changes things. I started wanting to write these kinds of worlds and characters when I was 10 years old, and had my first sprawling ensemble fantasy series started by the age of 11. By the age of 15 I had a 3 novel fantasy trilogy built out with about 20 significant characters, and it was ridiculous and silly but that was what I wanted to write.

And I guess you could say I haven't really changed, I've just gotten better at it. I hope to keep getting better at it! The challenge now is to figure out how to break down some of these skills so I can share them with others. But...I do think there's an element of 'this is just what I love, it's a special interest, I don't know how to convey that I have 30 years of special interest in reading, writing, and studying this thing across television, manga, manhwa, fanfiction, AUs, and fictional series.' There will be teachable skills in that, but I don't know how much osmosis / absorption / and being obsessed with entangled tapestries of stories makes up what I do.

In some ways it would be 'better' if I was built for more conventional storytelling. My bank account might like that more! BUT, I'm doing okay where I'm at, because I love it, and I try to share that with other people and see if I can tell stories that resonate with them too.

(There are aspects of what I do that are very hard for me - timelines, aspects of worldbuilding, pacing in the first arc, and so on, but the actual characterisation part, and creating multiple versions of the same character is as easy as breathing. I could give you four more different versions of Faber in an hour. Maybe even twenty minutes. It's not hyperbole, it's just...how I daydream, what I think about. And it's fun!)

I'm very very very lucky that other folks are willing to read the same characters across different narratives, because it's a very strange thing to do in writing outside of fanfiction, case in point being that we almost never see any other professional authors doing it with their original works. x.x

[not-poignant]

I'm not sure if you've answered this before, but I've read a lot of your work, and Efnisien has kind of become a favorite of mine and seeing how he's developed in AUs like FFS and UtB have you ever thought about how he might have developed had he not died in Game Theory?

Also, how do think the versions of Efnisien, Augus, and Gwyn in Canon Fae Tales, FFS, UtB would react to each other if they ever met or were made aware of the other's existence?

Hi hi anon!

I've answered this before but probably quite a while ago, while writing Falling Falling Stars in particular.

Tbh, Efnisien would have developed in Fae Tales by becoming more evil, and more depraved, and more awful. He was and remains to me a completely irredeemable character who was so cruel even Crielle thought it was extreme.

If Fae Tales Efnisien ever met any other version of Efnisien, he'd murder him. He'd probably torture him first and laugh about it, while grinding into his revealed organs. His heartsong has been Joy/Glee, simply because he loves cruelty and evil that much. He's like a pure distillation of someone who just doesn't need anything else if he has a knife and a squealing victim.

One of the challenges of writing Spoils of the Spoiled was how to make Efnisien more believably human and give him a back story that justified that. But Fae Tales Efnisien doesn't have that. He wasn't brainwashed or conditioned into being evil, he tried killing someone within about two days of being alive and loved inflicting pain from the moment he was born. Efnisien's response to meeting anyone from any other universe would be to torture and murder them. And probably laugh at them and mock them. I don't think any version of a human Efnisien would have much of an opportunity to do much more than be horrified, scream, and then die.

Imho, to me Fae Tales Efnisien and human Efnisien are two kind of different characters who look the same and have family members with the same names. But their upbringing was very different, and their capacity for compassion is different (one for example, has a capacity for compassion, the other doesn't).

Also, how do think the versions of Efnisien, Augus, and Gwyn in Canon Fae Tales, FFS, UtB would react to each other if they ever met or were made aware of the other's existence?

I'm never quite sure how to answer stuff like this otherwise. Augus would see a human version of Augus as food. I don't even think he'd truly recognise the similarity otherwise and just be like 'how unfortunate for you that you're a vulnerable delicious sack of meat who looks like me, by the way are you vegan by any chance.'

Gwyn likewise looks down on humans as like...interesting but largely annoying creatures that he's glad to have nothing to do with, and I think he'd consider any version of his human self to be weak in nature. I think he'd find a peak alpha Gwyn obnoxious and kind of laughable sldakfja

I'm not generally writing characters with a view that they should ever meet versions of themselves, but like, Augus and Gwyn are varying degrees of 'loathe humans' to 'don't care about humans' on the spectrum.

I think of Gwyn and Augus met Lone Wolf Gwyn and Augus that would be interesting, but I also think they'd mostly just... semi-get along and think something was very broken with the world if they ever met, and probably be like 'we should fix this because this should not be happening and we should not be meeting each other like this' lol. I think canon GT Gwyn would find Lone Wolf Gwyn too soft-natured and a bit spoiled but post-TIP Gwyn might find his life fascinating, and Lone Wolf Gwyn would probably have a different reaction depending on whether we're talking about pre-GT Gwyn, GT-Gwyn, post-GT Gwyn, post-COFT Gwyn, TIP Gwyn, or post-TIP Gwyn because...I don't like my main characters to stay the same x.x

Thought exercises like this are ultimately baffling to me. The only one I know how to answer easily is FT Efnisien vs. human Efnisien because to me that is like two different characters meeting, and FT Efnisien is extremely predictable because 'be cruel, torture, and kill while having the time of his life' is basically his entire character aside from 'love my Aunt so much it's creepy.'